On Monday, January 11, 2021 at 3:00:19 PM UTC-5, RichD wrote:

How did they make ice, in the days before electricity?

And, did the inventors manage it empirically, without
education in thermodynamic theory? I admit,
without book learning, the compression/condensation/
evaporation cycle would never occur to me, it’s
far from intuitive.

—
Rich

Ice was made by mother nature and chopped from the surfaces of frozen lakes, ponds and rivers.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

How did they make ice, in the days before electricity?

And, did the inventors manage it empirically, without
education in thermodynamic theory? I admit,
without book learning, the compression/condensation/
evaporation cycle would never occur to me, it’s
far from intuitive.

—
Rich

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

RichD wrote:

How did they make ice, in the days before electricity?

Steam engines used to compress ammonia

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sruQCrUM3o>

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 1/11/2021 3:01 PM, Dean wrote:

On Monday, January 11, 2021 at 3:00:19 PM UTC-5, RichD wrote:

How did they make ice, in the days before electricity?

And, did the inventors manage it empirically, without
education in thermodynamic theory? I admit,
without book learning, the compression/condensation/
evaporation cycle would never occur to me, it’s
far from intuitive.

—
Rich

Ice was made by mother nature and chopped from the surfaces of frozen lakes, ponds and rivers.

Also:

"During the winter, ice and snow would be taken into the ice house and insulated against melting with straw or sawdust. It would stay frozen
for many months, even until the following winter."

Neighbor with pre-revolutionary house has one on his property.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

"Frank" wrote in message news:rtklhu$hf8$1@dont-email.me...
On 1/11/2021 3:01 PM, Dean wrote:

On Monday, January 11, 2021 at 3:00:19 PM UTC-5, RichD wrote:

How did they make ice, in the days before electricity?

And, did the inventors manage it empirically, without
education in thermodynamic theory? I admit,
without book learning, the compression/condensation/
evaporation cycle would never occur to me, it’s
far from intuitive.

—
Rich

Ice was made by mother nature and chopped from the surfaces of frozen
lakes, ponds and rivers.

Also:

"During the winter, ice and snow would be taken into the ice house and >insulated against melting with straw or sawdust. It would stay frozen for >many months, even until the following winter."

Neighbor with pre-revolutionary house has one on his property.

They also made "slush ponds" to greatly improve the ice yield from a pond in winter - draw water from the bottom of a pond and spray it into the air so
it falls back onto the surface of the pond. Would either freeze in the air
or form a wet layer on the surface of existing ice that would then freeze, pushing the ice mass deeper into the pond until eventually the entire pond
was frozen. Otherwise as the surface of a pond freezes it protects the underlying water from evaporative cooling and insulates it from the cold air
so you get much less ice from a given nighttime temperature.

--
Regards,
Carl Ijames

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

RichD wrote:

How did they make ice, in the days before electricity?

And, did the inventors manage it empirically, without
education in thermodynamic theory? I admit,
without book learning, the compression/condensation/
evaporation cycle would never occur to me, it’s
far from intuitive.

—
Rich

Other posts here are good about making ice.

Then before electric or mechanical refrigerators
there was a matter of refrigeration in houses.

There was of course until the 1950s and 1960s
the ice man that delivered ice to people's ice
boxes in their homes on a nearly daily basis
and put ice into ice chests.

Then there were milk men that did the same for
milk.

If you start using the word 'ancient' however
and compare it with 'classical' it is not obvious
how far back that might go regardless of an official
invention of refrigeration. There are other ways to
preserve food.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On January 26, 2021 Troll wrote:

How did they make ice, in the days before electricity?
And, did the inventors manage it empirically, without
education in thermodynamic theory? I admit,
without book learning, the compression/condensation/
evaporation cycle would never occur to me, it’s
far from intuitive.

Then before electric or mechanical refrigerators
there was a matter of refrigeration in houses.
If you start using the word 'ancient' however
and compare it with 'classical' it is not obvious
how far back that might go regardless of an official
invention of refrigeration. There are other ways to
preserve food.

The most interesting question is whether it's possible to invent refrigeration,
without studying Carnot, Clausius, and that crowd.

Doesn't it seem like magic, as per Arthur Clarke's definition?

Anyhow, I was reading a historical novel of S. Africa, the diamond
mines, and as they prospered, a town elder says, "Pretty soon we're
going to get ice delivered here."

This was about 1880, and I wonder, where did the ice come from?

--
Rich

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

RichD wrote:

On January 26, 2021 Troll wrote:

How did they make ice, in the days before electricity?
And, did the inventors manage it empirically, without
education in thermodynamic theory? I admit,
without book learning, the compression/condensation/
evaporation cycle would never occur to me, it’s
far from intuitive.

Then before electric or mechanical refrigerators
there was a matter of refrigeration in houses.
If you start using the word 'ancient' however
and compare it with 'classical' it is not obvious
how far back that might go regardless of an official
invention of refrigeration. There are other ways to
preserve food.

The most interesting question is whether it's possible to invent refrigeration,
without studying Carnot, Clausius, and that crowd.

A lot of times in history theory came after practice :). The steam engines
were in operation decades before laws of thermodynamics were formulated (in fact the reason Carnot started his studies is to increase the efficiency of already existing machines), I see no reason why it couldn't happened with refrigeration as well.

Doesn't it seem like magic, as per Arthur Clarke's definition?

Anyhow, I was reading a historical novel of S. Africa, the diamond
mines, and as they prospered, a town elder says, "Pretty soon we're
going to get ice delivered here."

This was about 1880, and I wonder, where did the ice come from?

--
Rich

--
The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Dear RichD:

On Tuesday, February 16, 2021 at 3:55:13 PM UTC-7, RichD wrote:
...

The most interesting question is whether it's possible to
invent refrigeration, without studying Carnot, Clausius,
and that crowd.

Evaporative cooling was known. The underground cooling passages in Iran have shown evidence of ice formation, when the air's dewpoint is very low. And they had seen condensation (not freezing) with compressed air systems... not much of a stretch to
refrigeration using air as the refrigerant.

Doesn't it seem like magic, as per Arthur Clarke's definition?

Peltier cells do, for sure, even now.

Anyhow, I was reading a historical novel of S. Africa, the diamond
mines, and as they prospered, a town elder says, "Pretty soon we're
going to get ice delivered here."

This was about 1880, and I wonder, where did the ice come from?

Easy, shipped from the South Pole, then via train over land. Diamond mining was very profitable.

David A. Smith

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)