I've long been familiar with some strange critters of the Triassic, but I was really amazed at the variety that was displayed for us by Gary Meany, in Quora, of all places:in Earth’s history.
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-interesting-period-in-the-ancient-history-of-Earth-Is-it-the-Triassic-the-Jurassic-the-Cambrian-the-Devonian-or-other/answer/Gary-Meaney?ch=10&oid=274867839&share=f557083a&srid=pChjI&target_type=answer
He starts out:
"It’s like choosing a favourite child, honestly, but I think I’ll go with the Triassic for today. This period started about 251 million years ago, immediately preceded by the infamous End-Permian Extinction - the most devastating extinction event
"The cause of this mass extinction, also known as the Great Dying, is debated, but we do know it was immensely lethal. It’s thought that nearly 60% of all biological families were wiped out, including 70% of the world’s land vertebrate species.What this means is that, entering the Triassic, evolution practically had a clean slate to experiment with."
Then the fun begins: one unusual animal after another, each one with a well-executed color picture. Some I was familiar with:
*Tanystropheus,* with a giraffe-like neck with a few long bones, attached to a simple lizard-like body;
*Longisquama,* sporting a double row of long feather-like objects along its back;
*Sharovipteryx,* with legs much longer than its arms, but with a glidiing membrane
attached to its legs and the proximal part of its tail; and no gliding membrane elsewhere;
*Desmatosuchus*, "a herbivore built like a tank. It bore a striking resemblance to the ankylosaurs, dinosaurs which only evolved long after this reptile went extinct."
But the list stretches on and on, with many another weird creature that I've never heard of before. A few of them:evidence of this is shaky."
The archosaur *Erythrosuchus*, "which had a gigantic, bone-crushing head; proportionally, the largest of any known land vertebrate, extinct or otherwise."
"*Scleromochlus*, a cross between a lizard and a kangaroo. Its back legs were long and springy, enabling it to move around by hopping."
Marine reptiles included:
"*Atopodentatus, a hilariously odd creature which had a flat, hammer-shaped head. It used this to sieve through the sediment, like an underwater vacuum cleaner."
" The as of yet unnamed Lilstock Ichthyosaur. Discovered in 2018, this species may have been the largest reptile of all time, measuring a staggering 26 metres in length. Some argue it could even be comparable in size to the modern blue whale, but the
As the saying goes, though, a picture is worth a thousand words, and I think it best to stop here
and to let readers have the pleasure of going through the seemingly never-ending pictures for themselves.
I've long been familiar with some strange critters of the Triassic, but I was really amazed at the variety that was displayed for us by Gary Meany, in Quora, of all places:in Earth’s history.
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-interesting-period-in-the-ancient-history-of-Earth-Is-it-the-Triassic-the-Jurassic-the-Cambrian-the-Devonian-or-other/answer/Gary-Meaney?ch=10&oid=274867839&share=f557083a&srid=pChjI&target_type=answer
He starts out:
"It’s like choosing a favourite child, honestly, but I think I’ll go with the Triassic for today. This period started about 251 million years ago, immediately preceded by the infamous End-Permian Extinction - the most devastating extinction event
"The cause of this mass extinction, also known as the Great Dying, is debated, but we do know it was immensely lethal. It’s thought that nearly 60% of all biological families were wiped out, including 70% of the world’s land vertebrate species.What this means is that, entering the Triassic, evolution practically had a clean slate to experiment with."
Then the fun begins: one unusual animal after another, each one with a well-executed color picture. Some I was familiar with:
*Tanystropheus,* with a giraffe-like neck with a few long bones, attached to a simple lizard-like body;
*Longisquama,* sporting a double row of long feather-like objects along its back;
*Sharovipteryx,* with legs much longer than its arms, but with a glidiing membrane
attached to its legs and the proximal part of its tail; and no gliding membrane elsewhere;
*Desmatosuchus*, "a herbivore built like a tank. It bore a striking resemblance to the ankylosaurs, dinosaurs which only evolved long after this reptile went extinct."
But the list stretches on and on, with many another weird creature that I've never heard of before. A few of them:evidence of this is shaky."
The archosaur *Erythrosuchus*, "which had a gigantic, bone-crushing head; proportionally, the largest of any known land vertebrate, extinct or otherwise."
"*Scleromochlus*, a cross between a lizard and a kangaroo. Its back legs were long and springy, enabling it to move around by hopping."
Marine reptiles included:
"*Atopodentatus, a hilariously odd creature which had a flat, hammer-shaped head. It used this to sieve through the sediment, like an underwater vacuum cleaner."
" The as of yet unnamed Lilstock Ichthyosaur. Discovered in 2018, this species may have been the largest reptile of all time, measuring a staggering 26 metres in length. Some argue it could even be comparable in size to the modern blue whale, but the
As the saying goes, though, a picture is worth a thousand words, and I think it best to stop here
and to let readers have the pleasure of going through the seemingly never-ending pictures for themselves.
I've long been familiar with some strange critters of the Triassic, but I wasin Earth’s history.
really amazed at the variety that was displayed for us by Gary Meany, in Quora, of all places:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-interesting-period-in-the-ancient-history-of-Earth-Is-it-the-Triassic-the-Jurassic-the-Cambrian-the-Devonian-or-other/answer/Gary-Meaney?ch=10&oid=274867839&share=f557083a&srid=pChjI&target_type=answer
He starts out:
"It’s like choosing a favourite child, honestly, but I think I’ll go with the Triassic for today. This period started about 251 million years ago, immediately preceded by the infamous End-Permian Extinction - the most devastating extinction event
"The cause of this mass extinction, also known as the Great Dying, is debated, but we do know it was immensely lethal. It’s thought that nearly 60% of all biological families were wiped out, including 70% of the world’s land vertebrate species.What this means is that, entering the Triassic, evolution practically had a clean slate to experiment with."
Then the fun begins: one unusual animal after another, each one with a well-executed color picture. Some I was familiar with:
*Tanystropheus,* with a giraffe-like neck with a few long bones, attached to a simple lizard-like body;
*Longisquama,* sporting a double row of long feather-like objects along its back;
*Sharovipteryx,* with legs much longer than its arms, but with a glidiing membrane
attached to its legs and the proximal part of its tail; and no gliding membrane elsewhere;
*Desmatosuchus*, "a herbivore built like a tank. It bore a striking resemblance to the ankylosaurs, dinosaurs which only evolved long after this reptile went extinct."
But the list stretches on and on, with many another weird creature that I've never heard of before. A few of them:evidence of this is shaky."
The archosaur *Erythrosuchus*, "which had a gigantic, bone-crushing head; proportionally, the largest of any known land vertebrate, extinct or otherwise."
"*Scleromochlus*, a cross between a lizard and a kangaroo. Its back legs were long and springy, enabling it to move around by hopping."
Marine reptiles included:
"*Atopodentatus, a hilariously odd creature which had a flat, hammer-shaped head. It used this to sieve through the sediment, like an underwater vacuum cleaner."
" The as of yet unnamed Lilstock Ichthyosaur. Discovered in 2018, this species may have been the largest reptile of all time, measuring a staggering 26 metres in length. Some argue it could even be comparable in size to the modern blue whale, but the
As the saying goes, though, a picture is worth a thousand words, and I think it best to stop here
and to let readers have the pleasure of going through the seemingly never-ending pictures for themselves.
Peter NyikosAmazing bestiary. I'll be tracking down references for a while. I've known of some of them, but there are
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
Fascinating site. I do have to wonder how much in the reconstructions is based on actual material. I would also like to see more phylogenetic context. I think some of the beaked reptiles are rhynchosaurs, but I'm
not sure. And there's as least one incorrect fact: Gerrothorax was a temnospondyl, not a reptile. Still, interesting.
On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 6:43:12 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:in Earth’s history.
I've long been familiar with some strange critters of the Triassic, but I was
really amazed at the variety that was displayed for us by Gary Meany, in Quora, of all places:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-interesting-period-in-the-ancient-history-of-Earth-Is-it-the-Triassic-the-Jurassic-the-Cambrian-the-Devonian-or-other/answer/Gary-Meaney?ch=10&oid=274867839&share=f557083a&srid=pChjI&target_type=answer
He starts out:
"It’s like choosing a favourite child, honestly, but I think I’ll go with the Triassic for today. This period started about 251 million years ago, immediately preceded by the infamous End-Permian Extinction - the most devastating extinction event
What this means is that, entering the Triassic, evolution practically had a clean slate to experiment with.""The cause of this mass extinction, also known as the Great Dying, is debated, but we do know it was immensely lethal. It’s thought that nearly 60% of all biological families were wiped out, including 70% of the world’s land vertebrate species.
Then the fun begins: one unusual animal after another, each one with a well-executed color picture. Some I was familiar with:
*Tanystropheus,* with a giraffe-like neck with a few long bones, attached to a simple lizard-like body;
*Longisquama,* sporting a double row of long feather-like objects along its back;
*Sharovipteryx,* with legs much longer than its arms, but with a glidiing membrane
attached to its legs and the proximal part of its tail; and no gliding membrane elsewhere;
*Desmatosuchus*, "a herbivore built like a tank. It bore a striking resemblance to the ankylosaurs, dinosaurs which only evolved long after this reptile went extinct."
evidence of this is shaky."But the list stretches on and on, with many another weird creature that I've never heard of before. A few of them:
The archosaur *Erythrosuchus*, "which had a gigantic, bone-crushing head; proportionally, the largest of any known land vertebrate, extinct or otherwise."
"*Scleromochlus*, a cross between a lizard and a kangaroo. Its back legs were long and springy, enabling it to move around by hopping."
Marine reptiles included:
"*Atopodentatus, a hilariously odd creature which had a flat, hammer-shaped head. It used this to sieve through the sediment, like an underwater vacuum cleaner."
" The as of yet unnamed Lilstock Ichthyosaur. Discovered in 2018, this species may have been the largest reptile of all time, measuring a staggering 26 metres in length. Some argue it could even be comparable in size to the modern blue whale, but the
As the saying goes, though, a picture is worth a thousand words, and I think it best to stop here
and to let readers have the pleasure of going through the seemingly never-ending pictures for themselves.
Peter NyikosAmazing bestiary. I'll be tracking down references for a while. I've known of some of them, but there are
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
several new to me.
I've long been familiar with some strange critters of the Triassic, but I was really amazed at the variety that was displayed for us by Gary Meany, in Quora, of all places:in Earth’s history.
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-interesting-period-in-the-ancient-history-of-Earth-Is-it-the-Triassic-the-Jurassic-the-Cambrian-the-Devonian-or-other/answer/Gary-Meaney?ch=10&oid=274867839&share=f557083a&srid=pChjI&target_type=answer
He starts out:
"It’s like choosing a favourite child, honestly, but I think I’ll go with the Triassic for today. This period started about 251 million years ago, immediately preceded by the infamous End-Permian Extinction - the most devastating extinction event
"The cause of this mass extinction, also known as the Great Dying, is debated, but we do know it was immensely lethal. It’s thought that nearly 60% of all biological families were wiped out, including 70% of the world’s land vertebrate species.What this means is that, entering the Triassic, evolution practically had a clean slate to experiment with."
Then the fun begins: one unusual animal after another, each one with a well-executed color picture.
On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 9:04:14 AM UTC-7, erik simpson wrote:event in Earth’s history.
On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 6:43:12 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
I've long been familiar with some strange critters of the Triassic, but I was
really amazed at the variety that was displayed for us by Gary Meany, in Quora, of all places:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-interesting-period-in-the-ancient-history-of-Earth-Is-it-the-Triassic-the-Jurassic-the-Cambrian-the-Devonian-or-other/answer/Gary-Meaney?ch=10&oid=274867839&share=f557083a&srid=pChjI&target_type=answer
He starts out:
"It’s like choosing a favourite child, honestly, but I think I’ll go with the Triassic for today. This period started about 251 million years ago, immediately preceded by the infamous End-Permian Extinction - the most devastating extinction
What this means is that, entering the Triassic, evolution practically had a clean slate to experiment with.""The cause of this mass extinction, also known as the Great Dying, is debated, but we do know it was immensely lethal. It’s thought that nearly 60% of all biological families were wiped out, including 70% of the world’s land vertebrate species.
Then the fun begins: one unusual animal after another, each one with a well-executed color picture. Some I was familiar with:
*Tanystropheus,* with a giraffe-like neck with a few long bones, attached to a simple lizard-like body;
*Longisquama,* sporting a double row of long feather-like objects along its back;
*Sharovipteryx,* with legs much longer than its arms, but with a glidiing membrane
attached to its legs and the proximal part of its tail; and no gliding membrane elsewhere;
*Desmatosuchus*, "a herbivore built like a tank. It bore a striking resemblance to the ankylosaurs, dinosaurs which only evolved long after this reptile went extinct."
the evidence of this is shaky."But the list stretches on and on, with many another weird creature that I've never heard of before. A few of them:
The archosaur *Erythrosuchus*, "which had a gigantic, bone-crushing head; proportionally, the largest of any known land vertebrate, extinct or otherwise."
"*Scleromochlus*, a cross between a lizard and a kangaroo. Its back legs were long and springy, enabling it to move around by hopping."
Marine reptiles included:
"*Atopodentatus, a hilariously odd creature which had a flat, hammer-shaped head. It used this to sieve through the sediment, like an underwater vacuum cleaner."
" The as of yet unnamed Lilstock Ichthyosaur. Discovered in 2018, this species may have been the largest reptile of all time, measuring a staggering 26 metres in length. Some argue it could even be comparable in size to the modern blue whale, but
As the saying goes, though, a picture is worth a thousand words, and I think it best to stop here
and to let readers have the pleasure of going through the seemingly never-ending pictures for themselves.
I've found that the reason I recalled some of these beasts is that they almost all appear in Prothero's "Vertebrate Evolution",Peter NyikosAmazing bestiary. I'll be tracking down references for a while. I've known of some of them, but there are
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
several new to me.
which I've mostly read. (Having a capricious memory, I can't begin to claim to have all, or even most of the information
presented in that text in hand.). Prothero's text isn't to be compared to Romer's magisterial (but sadly now out of date)
compendium, but it's more approachable, particular for amateurs.
On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 10:50:48 PM UTC-6, erik simpson wrote:event in Earth’s history.
On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 9:04:14 AM UTC-7, erik simpson wrote:
On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 6:43:12 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
I've long been familiar with some strange critters of the Triassic, but I was
really amazed at the variety that was displayed for us by Gary Meany, in Quora, of all places:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-interesting-period-in-the-ancient-history-of-Earth-Is-it-the-Triassic-the-Jurassic-the-Cambrian-the-Devonian-or-other/answer/Gary-Meaney?ch=10&oid=274867839&share=f557083a&srid=pChjI&target_type=answer
He starts out:
"It’s like choosing a favourite child, honestly, but I think I’ll go with the Triassic for today. This period started about 251 million years ago, immediately preceded by the infamous End-Permian Extinction - the most devastating extinction
species. What this means is that, entering the Triassic, evolution practically had a clean slate to experiment with.""The cause of this mass extinction, also known as the Great Dying, is debated, but we do know it was immensely lethal. It’s thought that nearly 60% of all biological families were wiped out, including 70% of the world’s land vertebrate
Then the fun begins: one unusual animal after another, each one with a well-executed color picture. Some I was familiar with:
*Tanystropheus,* with a giraffe-like neck with a few long bones, attached to a simple lizard-like body;
*Longisquama,* sporting a double row of long feather-like objects along its back;
*Sharovipteryx,* with legs much longer than its arms, but with a glidiing membrane
attached to its legs and the proximal part of its tail; and no gliding membrane elsewhere;
*Desmatosuchus*, "a herbivore built like a tank. It bore a striking resemblance to the ankylosaurs, dinosaurs which only evolved long after this reptile went extinct."
the evidence of this is shaky."But the list stretches on and on, with many another weird creature that I've never heard of before. A few of them:
The archosaur *Erythrosuchus*, "which had a gigantic, bone-crushing head; proportionally, the largest of any known land vertebrate, extinct or otherwise."
"*Scleromochlus*, a cross between a lizard and a kangaroo. Its back legs were long and springy, enabling it to move around by hopping."
Marine reptiles included:
"*Atopodentatus, a hilariously odd creature which had a flat, hammer-shaped head. It used this to sieve through the sediment, like an underwater vacuum cleaner."
" The as of yet unnamed Lilstock Ichthyosaur. Discovered in 2018, this species may have been the largest reptile of all time, measuring a staggering 26 metres in length. Some argue it could even be comparable in size to the modern blue whale, but
As the saying goes, though, a picture is worth a thousand words, and I think it best to stop here
and to let readers have the pleasure of going through the seemingly never-ending pictures for themselves.
Not every vertebrate, for sure. Not even every genus, but probably all of the better known "kinds" get at least a mention. The presentGood Lord! Are you saying that this Prothero book is actually able to list everything that has ever been a vertebrate in 455 pages? Is he able to go into much detail beyond simply listing names?I've found that the reason I recalled some of these beasts is that they almost all appear in Prothero's "Vertebrate Evolution",Peter NyikosAmazing bestiary. I'll be tracking down references for a while. I've known of some of them, but there are
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
several new to me.
which I've mostly read. (Having a capricious memory, I can't begin to claim to have all, or even most of the information
presented in that text in hand.). Prothero's text isn't to be compared to Romer's magisterial (but sadly now out of date)
compendium, but it's more approachable, particular for amateurs.
What little I know I got from the Sues/Fraser book “Triassic Life on Land”. At maybe 20 years old, it’s already aging rapidly thanks to today’s ridiculous pace of discoveries.
On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 10:50:48 PM UTC-6, erik simpson wrote:event in Earth’s history.
On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 9:04:14 AM UTC-7, erik simpson wrote:
On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 6:43:12 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
I've long been familiar with some strange critters of the Triassic, but I was
really amazed at the variety that was displayed for us by Gary Meany, in Quora, of all places:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-interesting-period-in-the-ancient-history-of-Earth-Is-it-the-Triassic-the-Jurassic-the-Cambrian-the-Devonian-or-other/answer/Gary-Meaney?ch=10&oid=274867839&share=f557083a&srid=pChjI&target_type=answer
He starts out:
"It’s like choosing a favourite child, honestly, but I think I’ll go with the Triassic for today. This period started about 251 million years ago, immediately preceded by the infamous End-Permian Extinction - the most devastating extinction
species. What this means is that, entering the Triassic, evolution practically had a clean slate to experiment with.""The cause of this mass extinction, also known as the Great Dying, is debated, but we do know it was immensely lethal. It’s thought that nearly 60% of all biological families were wiped out, including 70% of the world’s land vertebrate
Then the fun begins: one unusual animal after another, each one with a well-executed color picture. Some I was familiar with:
*Tanystropheus,* with a giraffe-like neck with a few long bones, attached to a simple lizard-like body;
*Longisquama,* sporting a double row of long feather-like objects along its back;
*Sharovipteryx,* with legs much longer than its arms, but with a glidiing membrane
attached to its legs and the proximal part of its tail; and no gliding membrane elsewhere;
*Desmatosuchus*, "a herbivore built like a tank. It bore a striking resemblance to the ankylosaurs, dinosaurs which only evolved long after this reptile went extinct."
the evidence of this is shaky."But the list stretches on and on, with many another weird creature that I've never heard of before. A few of them:
The archosaur *Erythrosuchus*, "which had a gigantic, bone-crushing head; proportionally, the largest of any known land vertebrate, extinct or otherwise."
"*Scleromochlus*, a cross between a lizard and a kangaroo. Its back legs were long and springy, enabling it to move around by hopping."
Marine reptiles included:
"*Atopodentatus, a hilariously odd creature which had a flat, hammer-shaped head. It used this to sieve through the sediment, like an underwater vacuum cleaner."
" The as of yet unnamed Lilstock Ichthyosaur. Discovered in 2018, this species may have been the largest reptile of all time, measuring a staggering 26 metres in length. Some argue it could even be comparable in size to the modern blue whale, but
As the saying goes, though, a picture is worth a thousand words, and I think it best to stop here
and to let readers have the pleasure of going through the seemingly never-ending pictures for themselves.
Good Lord! Are you saying that this Prothero book is actually able to list everything that has ever been a vertebrate in 455 pages? Is he able to go into much detail beyond simply listing names?I've found that the reason I recalled some of these beasts is that they almost all appear in Prothero's "Vertebrate Evolution",Peter NyikosAmazing bestiary. I'll be tracking down references for a while. I've known of some of them, but there are
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
several new to me.
which I've mostly read. (Having a capricious memory, I can't begin to claim to have all, or even most of the information
presented in that text in hand.). Prothero's text isn't to be compared to Romer's magisterial (but sadly now out of date)
compendium, but it's more approachable, particular for amateurs.
What little I know I got from the Sues/Fraser book “Triassic Life on Land”. At maybe 20 years old, it’s already aging rapidly thanks to today’s ridiculous pace of discoveries.
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 8:12:23 AM UTC-7, Sight Reader wrote:event in Earth’s history.
On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 10:50:48 PM UTC-6, erik simpson wrote:
On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 9:04:14 AM UTC-7, erik simpson wrote:
On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 6:43:12 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
I've long been familiar with some strange critters of the Triassic, but I was
really amazed at the variety that was displayed for us by Gary Meany, in Quora, of all places:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-interesting-period-in-the-ancient-history-of-Earth-Is-it-the-Triassic-the-Jurassic-the-Cambrian-the-Devonian-or-other/answer/Gary-Meaney?ch=10&oid=274867839&share=f557083a&srid=pChjI&target_type=answer
He starts out:
"It’s like choosing a favourite child, honestly, but I think I’ll go with the Triassic for today. This period started about 251 million years ago, immediately preceded by the infamous End-Permian Extinction - the most devastating extinction
species. What this means is that, entering the Triassic, evolution practically had a clean slate to experiment with.""The cause of this mass extinction, also known as the Great Dying, is debated, but we do know it was immensely lethal. It’s thought that nearly 60% of all biological families were wiped out, including 70% of the world’s land vertebrate
Then the fun begins: one unusual animal after another, each one with a well-executed color picture. Some I was familiar with:
*Tanystropheus,* with a giraffe-like neck with a few long bones, attached to a simple lizard-like body;
*Longisquama,* sporting a double row of long feather-like objects along its back;
*Sharovipteryx,* with legs much longer than its arms, but with a glidiing membrane
attached to its legs and the proximal part of its tail; and no gliding membrane elsewhere;
*Desmatosuchus*, "a herbivore built like a tank. It bore a striking resemblance to the ankylosaurs, dinosaurs which only evolved long after this reptile went extinct."
but the evidence of this is shaky."But the list stretches on and on, with many another weird creature that I've never heard of before. A few of them:
The archosaur *Erythrosuchus*, "which had a gigantic, bone-crushing head; proportionally, the largest of any known land vertebrate, extinct or otherwise."
"*Scleromochlus*, a cross between a lizard and a kangaroo. Its back legs were long and springy, enabling it to move around by hopping."
Marine reptiles included:
"*Atopodentatus, a hilariously odd creature which had a flat, hammer-shaped head. It used this to sieve through the sediment, like an underwater vacuum cleaner."
" The as of yet unnamed Lilstock Ichthyosaur. Discovered in 2018, this species may have been the largest reptile of all time, measuring a staggering 26 metres in length. Some argue it could even be comparable in size to the modern blue whale,
As the saying goes, though, a picture is worth a thousand words, and I think it best to stop here
and to let readers have the pleasure of going through the seemingly never-ending pictures for themselves.
Wow, I might have to get that book!Good Lord! Are you saying that this Prothero book is actually able to list everything that has ever been a vertebrate in 455 pages? Is he able to go into much detail beyond simply listing names?I've found that the reason I recalled some of these beasts is that they almost all appear in Prothero's "Vertebrate Evolution",Peter NyikosAmazing bestiary. I'll be tracking down references for a while. I've known of some of them, but there are
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
several new to me.
which I've mostly read. (Having a capricious memory, I can't begin to claim to have all, or even most of the information
presented in that text in hand.). Prothero's text isn't to be compared to Romer's magisterial (but sadly now out of date)
compendium, but it's more approachable, particular for amateurs.
What little I know I got from the Sues/Fraser book “Triassic Life on Land”. At maybe 20 years old, it’s already aging rapidly thanks to today’s ridiculous pace of discoveries.The Paleocene resembles the Triassic with respect to the appearance of weird beasts that don't last
long in the evolutionary sense. For that matter, the same can be said for any rapid expansion into
new or recently vacated ecospace. The first arrivals in new territory got out of the blocks fast, but
may not be particularly well-adapted to conditions. For a glimpse of the strangness, have a look at
http://palaeos.com/cenozoic/paleocene/paleocene.html
On Monday, September 25, 2023 at 9:26:21 AM UTC-6, erik simpson wrote:extinction event in Earth’s history.
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 8:12:23 AM UTC-7, Sight Reader wrote:
On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 10:50:48 PM UTC-6, erik simpson wrote:
On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 9:04:14 AM UTC-7, erik simpson wrote:
On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 6:43:12 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
I've long been familiar with some strange critters of the Triassic, but I was
really amazed at the variety that was displayed for us by Gary Meany, in Quora, of all places:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-interesting-period-in-the-ancient-history-of-Earth-Is-it-the-Triassic-the-Jurassic-the-Cambrian-the-Devonian-or-other/answer/Gary-Meaney?ch=10&oid=274867839&share=f557083a&srid=pChjI&target_type=answer
He starts out:
"It’s like choosing a favourite child, honestly, but I think I’ll go with the Triassic for today. This period started about 251 million years ago, immediately preceded by the infamous End-Permian Extinction - the most devastating
species. What this means is that, entering the Triassic, evolution practically had a clean slate to experiment with.""The cause of this mass extinction, also known as the Great Dying, is debated, but we do know it was immensely lethal. It’s thought that nearly 60% of all biological families were wiped out, including 70% of the world’s land vertebrate
Then the fun begins: one unusual animal after another, each one with a well-executed color picture. Some I was familiar with:
*Tanystropheus,* with a giraffe-like neck with a few long bones, attached to a simple lizard-like body;
*Longisquama,* sporting a double row of long feather-like objects along its back;
*Sharovipteryx,* with legs much longer than its arms, but with a glidiing membrane
attached to its legs and the proximal part of its tail; and no gliding membrane elsewhere;
*Desmatosuchus*, "a herbivore built like a tank. It bore a striking resemblance to the ankylosaurs, dinosaurs which only evolved long after this reptile went extinct."
but the evidence of this is shaky."But the list stretches on and on, with many another weird creature that I've never heard of before. A few of them:
The archosaur *Erythrosuchus*, "which had a gigantic, bone-crushing head; proportionally, the largest of any known land vertebrate, extinct or otherwise."
"*Scleromochlus*, a cross between a lizard and a kangaroo. Its back legs were long and springy, enabling it to move around by hopping."
Marine reptiles included:
"*Atopodentatus, a hilariously odd creature which had a flat, hammer-shaped head. It used this to sieve through the sediment, like an underwater vacuum cleaner."
" The as of yet unnamed Lilstock Ichthyosaur. Discovered in 2018, this species may have been the largest reptile of all time, measuring a staggering 26 metres in length. Some argue it could even be comparable in size to the modern blue whale,
As the saying goes, though, a picture is worth a thousand words, and I think it best to stop here
and to let readers have the pleasure of going through the seemingly never-ending pictures for themselves.
sparse that it would be hard to tell exactly how long some of these weird experiments persisted.Good Lord! Are you saying that this Prothero book is actually able to list everything that has ever been a vertebrate in 455 pages? Is he able to go into much detail beyond simply listing names?I've found that the reason I recalled some of these beasts is that they almost all appear in Prothero's "Vertebrate Evolution",Peter NyikosAmazing bestiary. I'll be tracking down references for a while. I've known of some of them, but there are
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer-- University of South Carolina
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
several new to me.
which I've mostly read. (Having a capricious memory, I can't begin to claim to have all, or even most of the information
presented in that text in hand.). Prothero's text isn't to be compared to Romer's magisterial (but sadly now out of date)
compendium, but it's more approachable, particular for amateurs.
Wow, I might have to get that book!What little I know I got from the Sues/Fraser book “Triassic Life on Land”. At maybe 20 years old, it’s already aging rapidly thanks to today’s ridiculous pace of discoveries.The Paleocene resembles the Triassic with respect to the appearance of weird beasts that don't last
long in the evolutionary sense. For that matter, the same can be said for any rapid expansion into
new or recently vacated ecospace. The first arrivals in new territory got out of the blocks fast, but
may not be particularly well-adapted to conditions. For a glimpse of the strangness, have a look at
http://palaeos.com/cenozoic/paleocene/paleocene.html
Certainly a lot of these guys fall under the “fast-but-inefficient” category; however, we also have that end-Triassic extinction that may have wiped out a lotta guys that were doing perfectly well. From what I recall, our Triassic information is so
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 12:50:48 AM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:event in Earth’s history.
On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 9:04:14 AM UTC-7, erik simpson wrote:
On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 6:43:12 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
I've long been familiar with some strange critters of the Triassic, but I was
really amazed at the variety that was displayed for us by Gary Meany, in Quora, of all places:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-interesting-period-in-the-ancient-history-of-Earth-Is-it-the-Triassic-the-Jurassic-the-Cambrian-the-Devonian-or-other/answer/Gary-Meaney?ch=10&oid=274867839&share=f557083a&srid=pChjI&target_type=answer
He starts out:
"It’s like choosing a favourite child, honestly, but I think I’ll go with the Triassic for today. This period started about 251 million years ago, immediately preceded by the infamous End-Permian Extinction - the most devastating extinction
species. What this means is that, entering the Triassic, evolution practically had a clean slate to experiment with.""The cause of this mass extinction, also known as the Great Dying, is debated, but we do know it was immensely lethal. It’s thought that nearly 60% of all biological families were wiped out, including 70% of the world’s land vertebrate
the evidence of this is shaky."Then the fun begins: one unusual animal after another, each one with a well-executed color picture. Some I was familiar with:
*Tanystropheus,* with a giraffe-like neck with a few long bones, attached to a simple lizard-like body;
*Longisquama,* sporting a double row of long feather-like objects along its back;
*Sharovipteryx,* with legs much longer than its arms, but with a glidiing membrane
attached to its legs and the proximal part of its tail; and no gliding membrane elsewhere;
By the way, this is not a complete list of what I recognized, but these four were*Desmatosuchus*, "a herbivore built like a tank. It bore a striking resemblance to the ankylosaurs, dinosaurs which only evolved long after this reptile went extinct."
the most unusual IMO, and I didn't want to make my OP too long.
But the list stretches on and on, with many another weird creature that I've never heard of before. A few of them:
The archosaur *Erythrosuchus*, "which had a gigantic, bone-crushing head; proportionally, the largest of any known land vertebrate, extinct or otherwise."
"*Scleromochlus*, a cross between a lizard and a kangaroo. Its back legs were long and springy, enabling it to move around by hopping."
Marine reptiles included:
"*Atopodentatus, a hilariously odd creature which had a flat, hammer-shaped head. It used this to sieve through the sediment, like an underwater vacuum cleaner."
" The as of yet unnamed Lilstock Ichthyosaur. Discovered in 2018, this species may have been the largest reptile of all time, measuring a staggering 26 metres in length. Some argue it could even be comparable in size to the modern blue whale, but
Some of the pictures are the same as those appearing in Prothero's book. Hint: any picture with aThe pictures, or just the critters themselves?I've found that the reason I recalled some of these beasts is that they almost all appear in Prothero's "Vertebrate Evolution",As the saying goes, though, a picture is worth a thousand words, and I think it best to stop hereAmazing bestiary. I'll be tracking down references for a while. I've known of some of them, but there are
and to let readers have the pleasure of going through the seemingly never-ending pictures for themselves.
several new to me.
which I've mostly read. (Having a capricious memory, I can't begin to claim to have all, or even most of the informationnor to Carroll's magisterial, totally newly designed 1988 compendium, also sadly out of date.
presented in that text in hand.). Prothero's text isn't to be compared to Romer's magisterial (but sadly now out of date) compendium,
And this time, there seems to be no worthy successor to these two great texts
on the horizon. Benton (not to be confused with Denton) has a nice succession of texts,
but alas,
Benton : Carroll :: Colbert : Romer
... in the sense of being much skimpier, though keeping up to date.
[Colbert's 1955 _Evolution_of_the_Vertebrates_ was about half as long as the 1945 version
of Romer's text, and I assume Romer's 1967 edition of _Vertebrate _Paleontology_ was
a minor update of what was in Romer's 1945 edition, and incorporating Colbert's additional data.]
but it's more approachable, particular for amateurs.Not having seen it, I can't comment.
Peter Nyikos
Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos
On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 9:04:14 AM UTC-7, erik simpson wrote:event in Earth’s history.
On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 6:43:12 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
I've long been familiar with some strange critters of the Triassic, but I was
really amazed at the variety that was displayed for us by Gary Meany, in Quora, of all places:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-interesting-period-in-the-ancient-history-of-Earth-Is-it-the-Triassic-the-Jurassic-the-Cambrian-the-Devonian-or-other/answer/Gary-Meaney?ch=10&oid=274867839&share=f557083a&srid=pChjI&target_type=answer
He starts out:
"It’s like choosing a favourite child, honestly, but I think I’ll go with the Triassic for today. This period started about 251 million years ago, immediately preceded by the infamous End-Permian Extinction - the most devastating extinction
What this means is that, entering the Triassic, evolution practically had a clean slate to experiment with.""The cause of this mass extinction, also known as the Great Dying, is debated, but we do know it was immensely lethal. It’s thought that nearly 60% of all biological families were wiped out, including 70% of the world’s land vertebrate species.
Then the fun begins: one unusual animal after another, each one with a well-executed color picture. Some I was familiar with:
*Tanystropheus,* with a giraffe-like neck with a few long bones, attached to a simple lizard-like body;
*Longisquama,* sporting a double row of long feather-like objects along its back;
*Sharovipteryx,* with legs much longer than its arms, but with a glidiing membrane
attached to its legs and the proximal part of its tail; and no gliding membrane elsewhere;
*Desmatosuchus*, "a herbivore built like a tank. It bore a striking resemblance to the ankylosaurs, dinosaurs which only evolved long after this reptile went extinct."
the evidence of this is shaky."But the list stretches on and on, with many another weird creature that I've never heard of before. A few of them:
The archosaur *Erythrosuchus*, "which had a gigantic, bone-crushing head; proportionally, the largest of any known land vertebrate, extinct or otherwise."
"*Scleromochlus*, a cross between a lizard and a kangaroo. Its back legs were long and springy, enabling it to move around by hopping."
Marine reptiles included:
"*Atopodentatus, a hilariously odd creature which had a flat, hammer-shaped head. It used this to sieve through the sediment, like an underwater vacuum cleaner."
" The as of yet unnamed Lilstock Ichthyosaur. Discovered in 2018, this species may have been the largest reptile of all time, measuring a staggering 26 metres in length. Some argue it could even be comparable in size to the modern blue whale, but
As the saying goes, though, a picture is worth a thousand words, and I think it best to stop here
and to let readers have the pleasure of going through the seemingly never-ending pictures for themselves.
Amazing bestiary. I'll be tracking down references for a while. I've known of some of them, but there areI've found that the reason I recalled some of these beasts is that they almost all appear in Prothero's "Vertebrate Evolution",
several new to me.
which I've mostly read. (Having a capricious memory, I can't begin to claim to have all, or even most of the information
presented in that text in hand.). Prothero's text isn't to be compared to Romer's magisterial (but sadly now out of date) compendium,
but it's more approachable, particular for amateurs.
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 8:12:23 AM UTC-7, Sight Reader wrote:event in Earth’s history.
On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 10:50:48 PM UTC-6, erik simpson wrote:
On Saturday, September 23, 2023 at 9:04:14 AM UTC-7, erik simpson wrote:
On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 6:43:12 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
I've long been familiar with some strange critters of the Triassic, but I was
really amazed at the variety that was displayed for us by Gary Meany, in Quora, of all places:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-interesting-period-in-the-ancient-history-of-Earth-Is-it-the-Triassic-the-Jurassic-the-Cambrian-the-Devonian-or-other/answer/Gary-Meaney?ch=10&oid=274867839&share=f557083a&srid=pChjI&target_type=answer
He starts out:
"It’s like choosing a favourite child, honestly, but I think I’ll go with the Triassic for today. This period started about 251 million years ago, immediately preceded by the infamous End-Permian Extinction - the most devastating extinction
species. What this means is that, entering the Triassic, evolution practically had a clean slate to experiment with.""The cause of this mass extinction, also known as the Great Dying, is debated, but we do know it was immensely lethal. It’s thought that nearly 60% of all biological families were wiped out, including 70% of the world’s land vertebrate
Then the fun begins: one unusual animal after another, each one with a well-executed color picture.
I've found that the reason I recalled some of these beasts is that they almost all appear in Prothero's "Vertebrate Evolution",
which I've mostly read. (Having a capricious memory, I can't begin to claim to have all, or even most of the information
presented in that text in hand.). Prothero's text isn't to be compared to Romer's magisterial (but sadly now out of date)
compendium, but it's more approachable, particular for amateurs.
Good Lord! Are you saying that this Prothero book is actually able to list everything that has ever been a vertebrate in 455 pages? Is he able to go into much detail beyond simply listing names?
What little I know I got from the Sues/Fraser book “Triassic Life on Land”. At maybe 20 years old, it’s already aging rapidly thanks to today’s ridiculous pace of discoveries,
The Paleocene resembles the Triassic with respect to the appearance of weird beasts that don't last
long in the evolutionary sense. For that matter, the same can be said for any rapid expansion into
new or recently vacated ecospace. The first arrivals in new territory got out of the blocks fast, but
may not be particularly well-adapted to conditions. For a glimpse of the strangness, have a look at
http://palaeos.com/cenozoic/paleocene/paleocene.html
(snip for length)
I forget: did I recommend Brusatte's two books (The Rise and Fall of the Dinosaurs" and "The Rise
and Reign of the Mammals"? Brusatte's a great story teller as well as a very active paleontologist,
and goes into a lot of detail about the beginnings of these groups. Highly recommended.
On Friday, September 22, 2023 at 8:39:48 PM UTC-6, John Harshman wrote: <snip original post>
Fascinating site. I do have to wonder how much in the reconstructions is based on actual material. I would also like to see more phylogenetic context. I think some of the beaked reptiles are rhynchosaurs, but I'm
not sure. And there's as least one incorrect fact: Gerrothorax was a temnospondyl, not a reptile. Still, interesting.
Hmm… he must have repaired that Gerrothorax reference as it now shows up right after the temnospondyls Trematosaurus and Mastodonsaurus.
I’m thinking he deliberately avoided phylogenetic terms to keep from scaring away laymen testing out their interest in the topic.
He does have Hyperodapedon in there who would be your “classic” beaked rhynchosaur.
Beyond that, I would guess that too many weird new guys - some of whom could very well have beaks - keep popping up in that “protorosaur” tree to say who’s related to what. Didn’t that whole “allokotosaur” subtree, for instance, only comeinto focus a decade or so ago?
On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 18:43:11 -0700 (PDT)in Earth’s history.
Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:
I've long been familiar with some strange critters of the Triassic, but I was
really amazed at the variety that was displayed for us by Gary Meany, in Quora, of all places:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-interesting-period-in-the-ancient-history-of-Earth-Is-it-the-Triassic-the-Jurassic-the-Cambrian-the-Devonian-or-other/answer/Gary-Meaney?ch=10&oid=274867839&share=f557083a&srid=pChjI&target_type=answer
He starts out:
"It’s like choosing a favourite child, honestly, but I think I’ll go with the Triassic for today. This period started about 251 million years ago, immediately preceded by the infamous End-Permian Extinction - the most devastating extinction event
What this means is that, entering the Triassic, evolution practically had a clean slate to experiment with.""The cause of this mass extinction, also known as the Great Dying, is debated, but we do know it was immensely lethal. It’s thought that nearly 60% of all biological families were wiped out, including 70% of the world’s land vertebrate species.
Then the fun begins: one unusual animal after another, each one with a well-executed color picture.
Clearly there's far too much variety there for some simplistic thing
called 'Evolution' to have created so many different creatures;
what is needed is a Designer. </tongue in cheek>
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:52:49 AM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:in Earth’s history.
On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 18:43:11 -0700 (PDT)
Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:
I've long been familiar with some strange critters of the Triassic, but I was
really amazed at the variety that was displayed for us by Gary Meany, in Quora, of all places:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-interesting-period-in-the-ancient-history-of-Earth-Is-it-the-Triassic-the-Jurassic-the-Cambrian-the-Devonian-or-other/answer/Gary-Meaney?ch=10&oid=274867839&share=f557083a&srid=pChjI&target_type=answer
He starts out:
"It’s like choosing a favourite child, honestly, but I think I’ll go with the Triassic for today. This period started about 251 million years ago, immediately preceded by the infamous End-Permian Extinction - the most devastating extinction event
What this means is that, entering the Triassic, evolution practically had a clean slate to experiment with."
"The cause of this mass extinction, also known as the Great Dying, is debated, but we do know it was immensely lethal. It’s thought that nearly 60% of all biological families were wiped out, including 70% of the world’s land vertebrate species.
Then the fun begins: one unusual animal after another, each one with a well-executed color picture.
Clearly there's far too much variety there for some simplistic thing
called 'Evolution' to have created so many different creatures;
what is needed is a Designer. </tongue in cheek>
This kind of talk belongs in talk.origins, not sci.bio.paleontology.
On the other hand, it IS legitimate sbp talk to ask whether this huge variety of critters could be accounted for using just "random mutation and competition within populations." A much more appealing idea is that, with so many
environments devoid of "harvesters" (including carnivores "harvesting" other animals)
it was a perfect time for an explosion of Punctuated Equilibrium (PE).
Small breakaway groups from flourishing populations could explore new niches, and undergo rapid mutation favoring e.g. those bold enough to try novel foods.
Isolation from other small populations in new environments would result in mutations
affecting different groups differently, and these groups in turn would fragment
into others as they spread far and wide thru the continents.
John Harshman dislikes the whole idea of PE. I wonder what he would say to all this.
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:52:49 AM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:in Earth’s history.
On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 18:43:11 -0700 (PDT)
Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:
I've long been familiar with some strange critters of the Triassic, but I was
really amazed at the variety that was displayed for us by Gary Meany, in Quora, of all places:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-interesting-period-in-the-ancient-history-of-Earth-Is-it-the-Triassic-the-Jurassic-the-Cambrian-the-Devonian-or-other/answer/Gary-Meaney?ch=10&oid=274867839&share=f557083a&srid=pChjI&target_type=answer
He starts out:
"It’s like choosing a favourite child, honestly, but I think I’ll go with the Triassic for today. This period started about 251 million years ago, immediately preceded by the infamous End-Permian Extinction - the most devastating extinction event
What this means is that, entering the Triassic, evolution practically had a clean slate to experiment with."
"The cause of this mass extinction, also known as the Great Dying, is debated, but we do know it was immensely lethal. It’s thought that nearly 60% of all biological families were wiped out, including 70% of the world’s land vertebrate species.
Then the fun begins: one unusual animal after another, each one with a well-executed color picture.
Clearly there's far too much variety there for some simplistic thing
called 'Evolution' to have created so many different creatures;
what is needed is a Designer. </tongue in cheek>
This kind of talk belongs in talk.origins, not sci.bio.paleontology.
On the other hand, it IS legitimate sbp talk to ask whether this huge variety of critters could be accounted for using just "random mutation and competition within populations." A much more appealing idea is that, with so many
environments devoid of "harvesters" (including carnivores "harvesting" other animals)
it was a perfect time for an explosion of Punctuated Equilibrium (PE).
Small breakaway groups from flourishing populations could explore new niches, and undergo rapid mutation favoring e.g. those bold enough to try novel foods.
Isolation from other small populations in new environments would result in mutations
affecting different groups differently, and these groups in turn would fragment
into others as they spread far and wide thru the continents.
John Harshman dislikes the whole idea of PE. I wonder what he would say to all this.
On 9/27/23 6:52 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:event in Earth’s history.
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:52:49 AM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 18:43:11 -0700 (PDT)
Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:
I've long been familiar with some strange critters of the Triassic, but I was
really amazed at the variety that was displayed for us by Gary Meany, in Quora, of all places:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-interesting-period-in-the-ancient-history-of-Earth-Is-it-the-Triassic-the-Jurassic-the-Cambrian-the-Devonian-or-other/answer/Gary-Meaney?ch=10&oid=274867839&share=f557083a&srid=pChjI&target_type=answer
He starts out:
"It’s like choosing a favourite child, honestly, but I think I’ll go with the Triassic for today. This period started about 251 million years ago, immediately preceded by the infamous End-Permian Extinction - the most devastating extinction
What this means is that, entering the Triassic, evolution practically had a clean slate to experiment with."
"The cause of this mass extinction, also known as the Great Dying, is debated, but we do know it was immensely lethal. It’s thought that nearly 60% of all biological families were wiped out, including 70% of the world’s land vertebrate species.
Then the fun begins: one unusual animal after another, each one with a well-executed color picture.
Clearly there's far too much variety there for some simplistic thing
called 'Evolution' to have created so many different creatures;
what is needed is a Designer. </tongue in cheek>
This kind of talk belongs in talk.origins, not sci.bio.paleontology.
On the other hand, it IS legitimate sbp talk to ask whether this huge variety
of critters could be accounted for using just "random mutation and competition within populations." A much more appealing idea is that, with so many
environments devoid of "harvesters" (including carnivores "harvesting" other animals)
it was a perfect time for an explosion of Punctuated Equilibrium (PE).
Small breakaway groups from flourishing populations could explore new niches,
and undergo rapid mutation favoring e.g. those bold enough to try novel foods.
Isolation from other small populations in new environments would result in mutations
affecting different groups differently, and these groups in turn would fragment
into others as they spread far and wide thru the continents.
John Harshman dislikes the whole idea of PE. I wonder what he would say to all this.This thread appears to have died. Not sure why.
On 9/27/23 6:52 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:event in Earth’s history.
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:52:49 AM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote:
On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 18:43:11 -0700 (PDT)
Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:
I've long been familiar with some strange critters of the Triassic, but I was
really amazed at the variety that was displayed for us by Gary Meany, in Quora, of all places:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-interesting-period-in-the-ancient-history-of-Earth-Is-it-the-Triassic-the-Jurassic-the-Cambrian-the-Devonian-or-other/answer/Gary-Meaney?ch=10&oid=274867839&share=f557083a&srid=pChjI&target_type=answer
He starts out:
"It’s like choosing a favourite child, honestly, but I think I’ll go with the Triassic for today. This period started about 251 million years ago, immediately preceded by the infamous End-Permian Extinction - the most devastating extinction
What this means is that, entering the Triassic, evolution practically had a clean slate to experiment with."
"The cause of this mass extinction, also known as the Great Dying, is debated, but we do know it was immensely lethal. It’s thought that nearly 60% of all biological families were wiped out, including 70% of the world’s land vertebrate species.
Then the fun begins: one unusual animal after another, each one with a well-executed color picture.
Clearly there's far too much variety there for some simplistic thing
called 'Evolution' to have created so many different creatures;
what is needed is a Designer. </tongue in cheek>
This kind of talk belongs in talk.origins, not sci.bio.paleontology.
On the other hand, it IS legitimate sbp talk to ask whether this huge variety
of critters could be accounted for using just "random mutation and competition within populations." A much more appealing idea is that, with so many
environments devoid of "harvesters" (including carnivores "harvesting" other animals)
it was a perfect time for an explosion of Punctuated Equilibrium (PE).
Small breakaway groups from flourishing populations could explore new niches,
and undergo rapid mutation favoring e.g. those bold enough to try novel foods.
Isolation from other small populations in new environments would result in mutations
affecting different groups differently, and these groups in turn would fragment
into others as they spread far and wide thru the continents.
John Harshman dislikes the whole idea of PE. I wonder what he would say to all this.
I don't dislike the idea. I just don't think the evidence favors it.
I'm not sure you understand what PE is supposed to be either. You seem to be adding a lot of extra baggage to it.
On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 2:43:59 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:event in Earth’s history.
On 9/27/23 6:52 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
On Sunday, September 24, 2023 at 6:52:49 AM UTC-4, Kerr-Mudd, John wrote: >>>> On Fri, 22 Sep 2023 18:43:11 -0700 (PDT)
Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:
I've long been familiar with some strange critters of the Triassic, but I was
really amazed at the variety that was displayed for us by Gary Meany, in Quora, of all places:
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-interesting-period-in-the-ancient-history-of-Earth-Is-it-the-Triassic-the-Jurassic-the-Cambrian-the-Devonian-or-other/answer/Gary-Meaney?ch=10&oid=274867839&share=f557083a&srid=pChjI&target_type=answer
He starts out:
"It’s like choosing a favourite child, honestly, but I think I’ll go with the Triassic for today. This period started about 251 million years ago, immediately preceded by the infamous End-Permian Extinction - the most devastating extinction
What this means is that, entering the Triassic, evolution practically had a clean slate to experiment with."
"The cause of this mass extinction, also known as the Great Dying, is debated, but we do know it was immensely lethal. It’s thought that nearly 60% of all biological families were wiped out, including 70% of the world’s land vertebrate species.
Then the fun begins: one unusual animal after another, each one with a well-executed color picture.
Clearly there's far too much variety there for some simplistic thing
called 'Evolution' to have created so many different creatures;
what is needed is a Designer. </tongue in cheek>
This kind of talk belongs in talk.origins, not sci.bio.paleontology.
On the other hand, it IS legitimate sbp talk to ask whether this huge variety
of critters could be accounted for using just "random mutation and
competition within populations." A much more appealing idea is that, with so many
environments devoid of "harvesters" (including carnivores "harvesting" other animals)
it was a perfect time for an explosion of Punctuated Equilibrium (PE).
Small breakaway groups from flourishing populations could explore new niches,
and undergo rapid mutation favoring e.g. those bold enough to try novel foods.
Isolation from other small populations in new environments would result in mutations
affecting different groups differently, and these groups in turn would fragment
into others as they spread far and wide thru the continents.
John Harshman dislikes the whole idea of PE. I wonder what he would say to all this.
I don't dislike the idea. I just don't think the evidence favors it.
What do you think the following statement by Stephen Jay Gould is about? Chopped liver?
"The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record
persist as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary
trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at the tips and
nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable,
not the evidence of fossils.
--Stephen J. Gould - "Evolution's Erratic Pace," _Natural History_,
vol. 86(5) (May 1987): pp. 12-16, at p. 14
Reprinted in _The Panda's Thumb_, pp. 181-182.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part3.html#quote3.2
The above quote continued:
"Yet Darwin was so wedded to gradualism that he wagered his entire theory
on a denial of this literal record:
`The geological record is extremely imperfect and
this fact will to a large extent explain why we
do not find interminable varieties, connecting
together all the extinct and existing forms of life
by the finest graduated steps. He who rejects these views
on the nature of the geological record, will rightly reject
my whole theory.'
"Darwin's argument still persists as the favored escape of most
paleontologists from the embarrassment of a record that seems to show
so little of evolution [directly]. In exposing its cultural and
methodological roots, I wish in no way to impugn the potential
validity of gradualism (for all general views have similar roots).
I only wish to point out that it is never "seen" in the rocks."
[END OF QUOTE]
"never" is a tad harsh, but the horse superfamily Equioidea is one of
a mere handful of exceptions.
I'm not sure you understand what PE is supposed to be either. You seem to be >> adding a lot of extra baggage to it.
But you won't tell us what allegedly makes me "seem" that way, eh?
On 10/18/23 7:07 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 2:43:59 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
I'm not sure you understand what PE is supposed to be either. You seem to be
adding a lot of extra baggage to it.
But you won't tell us what allegedly makes me "seem" that way, eh?
You snipped out the entire explanation, I assume inadvertently.
Let me
restore it for you:
What you seem to be describing above doesn't require PE, just ordinary within-species processes.
You seem to be talking about release from
selection
and the "empty barrel" idea of recovery from mass extinction.
Anyone can do this, not just small breakaway groups (peripheral
isolates).
Anything that divides populations, potentially resulting in
speciation, is good enough. Nor is there any need or reason for
increased mutation rates.
What you may be groping toward is the idea of interspecific competition
as an evolutionary force.
But competition that acts on selectable
variation within species is just standard population genetics, one
species acting as part of another's environment.
Competition for which
there is no within-species selectable variation, however, can result in differential extinction, or species selection, and that's not standard population genetics.
On 10/18/23 7:07 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 2:43:59 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
On 9/27/23 6:52 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
On the other hand, it IS legitimate sbp talk to ask whether this huge variety
of critters could be accounted for using just "random mutation and
competition within populations." A much more appealing idea is that, with so many
environments devoid of "harvesters" (including carnivores "harvesting" other animals)
it was a perfect time for an explosion of Punctuated Equilibrium (PE). >>>
Small breakaway groups from flourishing populations could explore new niches,
and undergo rapid mutation favoring e.g. those bold enough to try novel foods.
Isolation from other small populations in new environments would result in mutations
affecting different groups differently, and these groups in turn would fragment
into others as they spread far and wide thru the continents.
John Harshman dislikes the whole idea of PE. I wonder what he would say to all this.
I don't dislike the idea. I just don't think the evidence favors it.
What do you think the following statement by Stephen Jay Gould is about? Chopped liver?
There are a number of problems with the statement. For one thing, Gould didn't understand phylogenetics very well.
"The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record
persist as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary
trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at the tips and
nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable,
not the evidence of fossils.
--Stephen J. Gould - "Evolution's Erratic Pace," _Natural History_,
vol. 86(5) (May 1987): pp. 12-16, at p. 14
Reprinted in _The Panda's Thumb_, pp. 181-182. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part3.html#quote3.2
The above quote continued:
"Yet Darwin was so wedded to gradualism that he wagered his entire theory on a denial of this literal record:
`The geological record is extremely imperfect and
this fact will to a large extent explain why we
do not find interminable varieties, connecting
together all the extinct and existing forms of life
by the finest graduated steps. He who rejects these views
on the nature of the geological record, will rightly reject
my whole theory.'
For another, he's attacking a
strawman, something assumed neither by Darwin nor by population
geneticists or other evolutionary biologists, i.e. "phyletic gradualism".
"Darwin's argument still persists as the favored escape of most paleontologists from the embarrassment of a record that seems to show
so little of evolution [directly]. In exposing its cultural and methodological roots, I wish in no way to impugn the potential
validity of gradualism (for all general views have similar roots).
I only wish to point out that it is never "seen" in the rocks."
[END OF QUOTE]
"never" is a tad harsh, but the horse superfamily Equioidea is one of
a mere handful of exceptions.
Is it? Is the fossil record of horses so continuous as to show gradual transitions from one species to the next?
Gould here is again presenting
a strawman fossil record.
Darwin was right: the fossil record is
fragmentary both in space and in time.
There are few if any continuous
records over thousands or millions of years.
I wish in no way to impugn the potential
validity of gradualism (for all general views have similar roots).
I only wish to point out that it is never "seen" in the rocks."
And if we agree, with
Darwin,
that evolution is episodic, periods of change being
comparatively rapid and few compared with periods of no change, then the fragments we have are indeed unlikely to show those periods.
On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 11:10:53 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
On 10/18/23 7:07 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 2:43:59 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
I'm not sure you understand what PE is supposed to be either. You seem to be
adding a lot of extra baggage to it.
But you won't tell us what allegedly makes me "seem" that way, eh?
You snipped out the entire explanation, I assume inadvertently.
No, it was because you made no effort to explain it, and only a sketchy attempt
to explain your first sentence.
Let me
restore it for you:
What you seem to be describing above doesn't require PE, just ordinary
within-species processes.
It's not a question of "requiring," but only a question of whether
PE is a better explanation than the one you give:
You seem to be talking about release from
selection
Certainly a reduction, with exploding sources of nourishment,
with or without speciation in the sources.
and the "empty barrel" idea of recovery from mass extinction.
Anyone can do this, not just small breakaway groups (peripheral
isolates).
The issue is whether breakaway isolates is a better explanation
for such a massive radiation. It certainly seems to work better
in times of reduced radiation.
And note, I'm not adding baggage to PE. I am adding PE to
"empty barrell" recovery. You may call this excess baggage,
but you need to make a separate case for that.
Anything that divides populations, potentially resulting in
speciation, is good enough. Nor is there any need or reason for
increased mutation rates.
I was pressed for time, as usual, and was abrupt.
What I meant was increased rates of survival
of novel mutations due to increased ability to process exploding
food sources. These sources would have not helped
them earlier, when they were at a disadvantage
against the ones using the plentiful pre-catastrophe food sources.
What you may be groping toward is the idea of interspecific competition
as an evolutionary force.
So far from groping, I was talking about one of my favorite topics:
mega-competition between big clades. I did it wrt competition between between pterosaurs and birds, on the thread "Triassic Mega-Evolution."
Sight Reader then provided a very promising possibility of
rynchocephalians v. squamates on Oct. 4.
This was before you started posting on this thread.
After this, you went off on a tangent ["derailing the thread" is
the way you put it if I do it] on population genetics:
But competition that acts on selectable
variation within species is just standard population genetics, one
species acting as part of another's environment.
"another's" gives the game away. Each species of pterosaur was
competing with many species of birds, and vice versa.
There were lots of other potential cases in the Triassic.
Competition for which
there is no within-species selectable variation, however, can result in
differential extinction, or species selection, and that's not standard
population genetics.
So, why bring population genetics into the picture at all?
On Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 11:10:53 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
On 10/18/23 7:07 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
On Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 2:43:59 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote: >>>> On 9/27/23 6:52 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
On the other hand, it IS legitimate sbp talk to ask whether this huge variety
of critters could be accounted for using just "random mutation and
competition within populations." A much more appealing idea is that, with so many
environments devoid of "harvesters" (including carnivores "harvesting" other animals)
it was a perfect time for an explosion of Punctuated Equilibrium (PE). >>>>>
Small breakaway groups from flourishing populations could explore new niches,
and undergo rapid mutation favoring e.g. those bold enough to try novel foods.
Isolation from other small populations in new environments would result in mutations
affecting different groups differently, and these groups in turn would fragment
into others as they spread far and wide thru the continents.
John Harshman dislikes the whole idea of PE. I wonder what he would say to all this.
I don't dislike the idea. I just don't think the evidence favors it.
What do you think the following statement by Stephen Jay Gould is about? >>> Chopped liver?
John, you prefaced what I quoted with the following:
There are a number of problems with the statement. For one thing, Gould
didn't understand phylogenetics very well.
Is this going to be a fixture of your posting, making put-downs
like this without explanation?
"The extreme rarity of transitional forms in the fossil record
persist as the trade secret of paleontology. The evolutionary
trees that adorn our textbooks have data only at the tips and
nodes of their branches; the rest is inference, however reasonable,
not the evidence of fossils.
--Stephen J. Gould - "Evolution's Erratic Pace," _Natural History_,
vol. 86(5) (May 1987): pp. 12-16, at p. 14
Reprinted in _The Panda's Thumb_, pp. 181-182.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/quotes/mine/part3.html#quote3.2
The above quote continued:
"Yet Darwin was so wedded to gradualism that he wagered his entire theory >>> on a denial of this literal record:
`The geological record is extremely imperfect and
this fact will to a large extent explain why we
do not find interminable varieties, connecting
together all the extinct and existing forms of life
by the finest graduated steps. He who rejects these views
on the nature of the geological record, will rightly reject
my whole theory.'
> For another, he's attacking a
strawman, something assumed neither by Darwin nor by population
geneticists or other evolutionary biologists, i.e. "phyletic gradualism".
What, then do you make of the words, "by the finest graduated steps"?
You don't say. Another unexplained put-down.
If Kerr-Mudd returns to this thread, what are the odds that
he will NOT reply to you, but to me with the claim that he dislikes
this kind of talk?
Yes, but not the sort of thing demanded by "phyletic gradualism"."Darwin's argument still persists as the favored escape of most
paleontologists from the embarrassment of a record that seems to show
so little of evolution [directly]. In exposing its cultural and
methodological roots, I wish in no way to impugn the potential
validity of gradualism (for all general views have similar roots).
I only wish to point out that it is never "seen" in the rocks."
[END OF QUOTE]
"never" is a tad harsh, but the horse superfamily Equioidea is one of
a mere handful of exceptions.
Is it? Is the fossil record of horses so continuous as to show gradual
transitions from one species to the next?
The one from early Merychippus species to Dinohippus is said
to be like that, in:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/horses/horse_evol.html
Excerpt:
3. A line of "true equines" in which the side toes sometimes began to decrease in size. In this flurry of evolution, Merychippus primus
gave rise to two later merychippines called M. sejunctus and M.
isonesus, who had a mixture of "primitive" (Parahippus-like),
hipparion, and equine features. They, in turn, gave rise to M.
intermontanus, which begat M. stylodontus and M. carrizoensis. These
last two looked quite "horsey" and gave rise to a set of larger
three-toed and one-toed horses known as the "true equines" (see
below). Crystal clear, right?
>Gould here is again presenting
a strawman fossil record.
Your subsequent comments do not support this latest put-down. Were you shooting from the hip,
without consulting his article? You do have a copy of _The Panda's Thumb_, don't you?
Darwin was right: the fossil record is
fragmentary both in space and in time.
No kidding, Sherlock.
Gould confirmed that in the above linked article, and said
that PE made the details conform better to the existing evidence.
There are few if any continuous
records over thousands or millions of years.
You are confirming Gould's words,
[repeated from above]
I wish in no way to impugn the potential
validity of gradualism (for all general views have similar roots).
I only wish to point out that it is never "seen" in the rocks."
And if we agree, with
Darwin,
And with Gould,
that evolution is episodic, periods of change being
comparatively rapid and few compared with periods of no change, then the
fragments we have are indeed unlikely to show those periods.
And Gould and his less well-known coauthor, Niles Eldredge, have an explanation that
further elucidates that unlikeliness.
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