• OT: Antibiotics and Antimicrobial Resistance

    From Martin Harran@21:1/5 to All on Tue Aug 15 12:33:07 2023
    Apologies for the OT post from a non-regular here but Talk Origins is
    down and I'd like to get an answer to this before I see my doctor
    tomorrow.

    I have a recurring health issue, nothing major but it ends up in me
    getting antibiotics about every 6 months. I am conscious of the
    growing issue of antimicrobial resistance evolving due to the
    widespread use of antibiotics. If I understand properly, however, this
    is a *population* issue rather than an *individual* one, and the risk
    of me personally developing such resistance is probably quite low.
    Have I got that right?

    I do understand that my using antibiotics does contribute to the
    widespread use but I regard all these things as about balance.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Lawyer Daggett@21:1/5 to Martin Harran on Tue Aug 15 05:55:26 2023
    On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 7:33:41 AM UTC-4, Martin Harran wrote:
    Apologies for the OT post from a non-regular here but Talk Origins is
    down and I'd like to get an answer to this before I see my doctor
    tomorrow.

    I have a recurring health issue, nothing major but it ends up in me
    getting antibiotics about every 6 months. I am conscious of the
    growing issue of antimicrobial resistance evolving due to the
    widespread use of antibiotics. If I understand properly, however, this
    is a *population* issue rather than an *individual* one, and the risk
    of me personally developing such resistance is probably quite low.
    Have I got that right?

    I do understand that my using antibiotics does contribute to the
    widespread use but I regard all these things as about balance.

    Unfortunately, you have it wrong, maybe, somewhat.

    There are myriad things which affect the situation. So details matter.
    Discuss them with your physician, although be prepared that not all
    physicians are educated equal.

    Some background. Not all antibiotic resistance comes about the same
    way. It can evolve spontaneously, but that's pretty rare. The best way(worst?) for this to happen is under a low dosage regimen where the drug concentration of some populations of bacteria are exposed to are only partially inhibited in growth and reproduction. In such populations, minor changes in pathways
    that reduce the impact of the antibiotic can produce significant competitive advantages. You can play out the classical natural selection schemes where multiple small advantages accumulate. Moreover, the population of bacteria
    that now have a higher tolerance for the antibiotic can colonize parts of the organism that had slightly higher concentrations of active antibiotic giving another population boost. All of this argues against half measures with lower concentrations of antibiotics and prolonged use.

    That said, the problem of greater significance is that there's a far more common
    route of acquiring antibiotic resistance. And that's sloppy bacterial sex. Okay,
    most don't consider it actual sex but bacteria can share DNA with each other
    as small little independent circles of DNA called plasmids. Plasmids have discovered
    that carrying genes for antibiotic resistance is a very effective survival strategy.
    I'm indulging in some poetic license.

    The take home point is that our modern world has evolved through enough of
    a history of antibiotic use that the slow method of inventing antibiotic resistance
    has left a legacy in the populations of plasmids that are out there. It's sadly common to find plasmids that contain multiple genes that afford resistance
    to multiple disparate antibiotics. There's more to the story as the use of antibiotics
    in agriculture is way over done, maintaining populations of bacteria that carry multi-antibiotic resistance plasmids. Feed lots are especially notorious.

    For your particular case, again, consult your physician. But if you undergo a two week or 10 day course of antibiotics twice a year, then you will be renewing
    your personal population of antibiotic resistant plasmids. By theory, when you finish your course of antibiotics, the bacteria supporting the added plasmids will have a slight competitive disadvantage to those that don't, so they ought to be outbreed. But the advantage is slight. And not to attack you personally, you have many reservoirs of bacteria, so after 6 months it's likely you still have
    some enhanced levels of resistance conferring plasmids.

    Some will suggest that you can help yourself with probiotics. If you're taking an
    oral antibiotic, it will likely have a significant effect on your gut microbiome.
    Some probiotic yoghurts are often a good choice. And as a numbers game,
    giving yourself some good bacteria (most are good) can help dilute away those with the nasty plasmids.

    Your physician might hedge, as our broader environment is mostly out of your control. If you volunteer at a hospital, or have young relatives in daycare, you
    will be exposed to places where antibiotic resistant bacteria are endemic. Or if you're exposed to the 'fragrances of nature" near a feed lots, or a neighbor
    likes to spread fresh manure on their flower beds, or some further hundreds of aspects of modern life, the specter remains.

    But as a final note, you probably don't need to worry much about it.
    Most of the anti-bacterials you would be prescribed are fundamentally bacterio- static, as opposed to bactericidal. They mostly stop the bacteria from growing rather than outright killing it. Your immune system will finish the job for bad
    infections, or your body will come back into a balance where the little critters
    aren't taking over. Whatever particular reason you are being prescribed antibiotics,
    in this semi-regular basis, the level of resistance in you is unlikely to confound
    the therapeutic needs. And the chance that you will be the critical incubator that spawned a scourge predicted by a certain expert on the subjective/objective
    divide is next to zero.

    PS. If you want to mess with your MD, tell him you read something on WebMD
    and want to talk to him about it.

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  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to Martin Harran on Tue Aug 15 16:30:24 2023
    On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 4:33:41 AM UTC-7, Martin Harran wrote:
    Apologies for the OT post from a non-regular here but Talk Origins is
    down and I'd like to get an answer to this before I see my doctor
    tomorrow.

    I have a recurring health issue, nothing major but it ends up in me
    getting antibiotics about every 6 months. I am conscious of the
    growing issue of antimicrobial resistance evolving due to the
    widespread use of antibiotics. If I understand properly, however, this
    is a *population* issue rather than an *individual* one, and the risk
    of me personally developing such resistance is probably quite low.
    Have I got that right?

    I do understand that my using antibiotics does contribute to the
    widespread use but I regard all these things as about balance.

    Balance? Evolution is defined as any change in allele frequencies in a population over time. There are tons of bacteria and viruses in and on your body from childhood on.
    Sufficient knowledge does not yet exist to answer your question about probabilities. Maybe statistics, but even then much is assumed and not known. Hell, most of the time
    doctors don't even bother to look for bacteria, they just compare your symptoms with others in the area and give you antibiotics for a certain bacteria.

    Watch "Life on Us: A microscopic safari" and get some smarts.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin Harran@21:1/5 to All on Wed Aug 16 16:03:57 2023
    On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:30:24 -0700 (PDT), Glenn <GlennSheldon@msn.com>
    wrote:

    On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 4:33:41?AM UTC-7, Martin Harran wrote:
    Apologies for the OT post from a non-regular here but Talk Origins is
    down and I'd like to get an answer to this before I see my doctor
    tomorrow.

    I have a recurring health issue, nothing major but it ends up in me
    getting antibiotics about every 6 months. I am conscious of the
    growing issue of antimicrobial resistance evolving due to the
    widespread use of antibiotics. If I understand properly, however, this
    is a *population* issue rather than an *individual* one, and the risk
    of me personally developing such resistance is probably quite low.
    Have I got that right?

    I do understand that my using antibiotics does contribute to the
    widespread use but I regard all these things as about balance.

    Balance? Evolution is defined as any change in allele frequencies in a population over time. There are tons of bacteria and viruses in and on your body from childhood on.
    Sufficient knowledge does not yet exist to answer your question about probabilities. Maybe statistics, but even then much is assumed and not known. Hell, most of the time
    doctors don't even bother to look for bacteria, they just compare your symptoms with others in the area and give you antibiotics for a certain bacteria.

    Watch "Life on Us: A microscopic safari" and get some smarts.

    Note to self: Don't get drawn into one of Glenn's pointless
    pseudo-debates which are bad enough on TO without contaminating a
    different newsgroup.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to Martin Harran on Wed Aug 16 12:16:03 2023
    On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 8:04:33 AM UTC-7, Martin Harran wrote:
    On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:30:24 -0700 (PDT), Glenn <GlennS...@msn.com>
    wrote:
    On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 4:33:41?AM UTC-7, Martin Harran wrote:
    Apologies for the OT post from a non-regular here but Talk Origins is
    down and I'd like to get an answer to this before I see my doctor
    tomorrow.

    I have a recurring health issue, nothing major but it ends up in me
    getting antibiotics about every 6 months. I am conscious of the
    growing issue of antimicrobial resistance evolving due to the
    widespread use of antibiotics. If I understand properly, however, this
    is a *population* issue rather than an *individual* one, and the risk
    of me personally developing such resistance is probably quite low.
    Have I got that right?

    I do understand that my using antibiotics does contribute to the
    widespread use but I regard all these things as about balance.

    Balance? Evolution is defined as any change in allele frequencies in a population over time. There are tons of bacteria and viruses in and on your body from childhood on.
    Sufficient knowledge does not yet exist to answer your question about probabilities. Maybe statistics, but even then much is assumed and not known. Hell, most of the time
    doctors don't even bother to look for bacteria, they just compare your symptoms with others in the area and give you antibiotics for a certain bacteria.

    Watch "Life on Us: A microscopic safari" and get some smarts.
    Note to self:

    Nope.
    Don't get drawn into one of Glenn's pointless
    pseudo-debates which are bad enough on TO without contaminating a
    different newsgroup.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to Martin Harran on Mon Aug 21 05:20:56 2023
    On Wednesday, August 16, 2023 at 11:04:33 AM UTC-4, Martin Harran wrote:
    On Tue, 15 Aug 2023 16:30:24 -0700 (PDT), Glenn <GlennS...@msn.com>
    wrote:
    On Tuesday, August 15, 2023 at 4:33:41?AM UTC-7, Martin Harran wrote:
    Apologies for the OT post from a non-regular here but Talk Origins is
    down and I'd like to get an answer to this before I see my doctor
    tomorrow.

    I have a recurring health issue, nothing major but it ends up in me
    getting antibiotics about every 6 months. I am conscious of the
    growing issue of antimicrobial resistance evolving due to the
    widespread use of antibiotics. If I understand properly, however, this
    is a *population* issue rather than an *individual* one, and the risk
    of me personally developing such resistance is probably quite low.
    Have I got that right?

    I do understand that my using antibiotics does contribute to the
    widespread use but I regard all these things as about balance.

    Balance? Evolution is defined as any change in allele frequencies in a population over time. There are tons of bacteria and viruses in and on your body from childhood on.
    Sufficient knowledge does not yet exist to answer your question about probabilities. Maybe statistics, but even then much is assumed and not known. Hell, most of the time
    doctors don't even bother to look for bacteria, they just compare your symptoms with others in the area and give you antibiotics for a certain bacteria.

    Watch "Life on Us: A microscopic safari" and get some smarts.

    That last clause was uncalled-for, but the rest was an objective supplement to what Lawyer Daggett wrote.

    Note to self: Don't get drawn into one of Glenn's pointless
    pseudo-debates

    You didn't register any criticisms to any specific objective statement that Glenn made.
    And nothing he wrote was pointless. So your "note to self" was a non sequitur.

    which are bad enough on TO without contaminating a
    different newsgroup.

    As one of the two people who brought sci.bio.paleontology back from
    the brink of extinction in 2011, and have been a regular here since,
    I can assure you there was no contamination by any of the three of you,
    until this last comment of yours.

    For one thing, everything that went on before this post of mine,
    including Glenn's one word reply to what you wrote here,
    came while Beagle was still down, and there was no way of knowing
    how much longer it would be down.

    Every time Beagle (and before it, Darwin) went down, sci.bio.paleontology
    has taken on the role of a kind of "talk.origins in exile" in addition to its customary role.
    There was only one time that one of our regulars voiced opposition to this status,
    and that was for a purely personal reason: unlike in the many earlier downtimes,
    Glenn showed up here.


    More importantly perhaps, while what the three of you wrote was technically OT, similar posts have been tolerated in the past here, when on-topic participation was
    at an ebb. The reason is that sci.bio.evolution became defunct about a decade ago,
    and we know of no other newsgroup that could substitute for it as well as this one.


    Peter Nyikos
    Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
    University of South Carolina
    http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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