• third eyed tetrapods

    From Popping Mad@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jan 7 17:13:25 2023
    Anyone know the details to the third eye in most early tetrapods and
    even in todays reptiles.

    It seems like the strangest turn in evolution.

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  • From erik simpson@21:1/5 to Popping Mad on Sat Jan 7 16:10:00 2023
    On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 2:13:56 PM UTC-8, Popping Mad wrote:
    Anyone know the details to the third eye in most early tetrapods and
    even in todays reptiles.

    It seems like the strangest turn in evolution.

    Wikipedia has an interesting entry for this; lots of details of which I was unaware. It seems
    to a very primitive feature, having develope long before vertebrates, possibly primitive to Bilateria(?).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parietal_eye

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From *Hemidactylus*@21:1/5 to erik simpson on Sun Jan 8 17:11:33 2023
    erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 2:13:56 PM UTC-8, Popping Mad wrote:
    Anyone know the details to the third eye in most early tetrapods and
    even in todays reptiles.

    It seems like the strangest turn in evolution.

    Wikipedia has an interesting entry for this; lots of details of which I
    was unaware. It seems
    to a very primitive feature, having develope long before vertebrates, possibly primitive to Bilateria(?).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parietal_eye

    Recently PZ Myers got into the molecular evolution of photoreception and
    how it differs across bilaterian phyla. He touched on circadian rhythms
    which though neontological in coverage might be relevant here:

    https://youtu.be/jhexF9rEo-M

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From erik simpson@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jan 8 12:43:01 2023
    On Sunday, January 8, 2023 at 9:11:39 AM UTC-8, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    erik simpson <eastsi...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 2:13:56 PM UTC-8, Popping Mad wrote:
    Anyone know the details to the third eye in most early tetrapods and
    even in todays reptiles.

    It seems like the strangest turn in evolution.

    Wikipedia has an interesting entry for this; lots of details of which I
    was unaware. It seems
    to a very primitive feature, having develope long before vertebrates, possibly primitive to Bilateria(?).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parietal_eye

    Recently PZ Myers got into the molecular evolution of photoreception and
    how it differs across bilaterian phyla. He touched on circadian rhythms
    which though neontological in coverage might be relevant here:

    https://youtu.be/jhexF9rEo-M

    Outstanding. Informative not only in the chemical details diverging from Ur-bilaterian to
    Protostomes and Deuterostomes, but in illustrating how evolutionary changes can be
    inferred where there are no fossil eyes.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Popping Mad@21:1/5 to erik simpson on Tue Jan 10 02:10:46 2023
    On 1/7/23 19:10, erik simpson wrote:
    On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 2:13:56 PM UTC-8, Popping Mad wrote:
    Anyone know the details to the third eye in most early tetrapods and
    even in todays reptiles.

    It seems like the strangest turn in evolution.

    Wikipedia has an interesting entry for this; lots of details of which I was unaware. It seems
    to a very primitive feature, having develope long before vertebrates, possibly primitive to Bilateria(?).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parietal_eye


    https://academic.oup.com/biolinnean/article/101/4/870/2450636

    The parietal, or ‘third’, eye is a photosensory organ that occurs as a
    part of the pineal complex (i.e. the pineal gland and associated
    structures) in some vertebrates, most notably in many lizards and in the tuatara (Eakin, 1973). Almost all vertebrates, except crocodilians and a
    few mammals, have a pineal complex that is generally involved in the
    endocrinal regulation of circadian and seasonal cycles, reproduction,
    and body temperature (Quay, 1979; Ralph et al., 1979); its main
    secretory product being the hormone melatonin (Lutterschmidt,
    Lutterschmidt & Hutchison, 2003). The pineal complex is considered to be
    most developed in ‘lower’ vertebrates and to show a tendency for evolutionary reduction in size and functionality (Edinger, 1955; Eakin,
    1973; but see also Quay, 1979). The ancestral state is presumed to have
    been a possibly paired photosensory organ, as seen in some extant
    cyclostomes. Possibly, the parietal eye and the pineal gland of
    tetrapods are the descendants of the left and right parts of this organ
    (Eakin, 1973). In the pineal gland, the endosecretory pinealocytes
    appear to be derived from photoreceptor cells (Collin, 1971; Kappers,
    1971; Ralph et al., 1979) and, in many taxa, including lizards, the
    pineal gland retains photosensory capability (Edinger, 1955; Gundy &
    Wurst, 1976b; Quay, 1979).

    The parietal eye shows a phylogenetic distribution that reflects
    frequent reduction, loss or rudimentation. Indeed, several Permian
    reptiles, including some therapsids, had parietal foramina that are
    relatively much larger than those of any extant taxa (Edinger, 1955;
    Quay, 1979). The parietal eye is lost in birds, turtles, crocodilians,
    snakes, and mammals, as well as in many individual species, genera, and families of lizards. Gundy & Wurst (1976a, b) report that about 60% of
    all lizard genera include species with an externally visible parietal
    eye. Among amphibians, a frontal eye occurs in ranid frogs, although
    parietal eyes appear absent or vestigial in other taxa (Ralph, 1975).
    The loss of parietal eyes is also supported by reports of possible developmental vestiges in some snakes, birds, and mammals (Stebbins &
    Eakin, 1958; Quay, 1979).

    The lizard parietal eye (Fig. 1) clearly has photosensory capability as indicated by its structure with a somewhat cup-shaped photosensory
    retina usually below a translucent ‘lens’ and a ‘cornea’, and by direct evidence for electrophysiological response to light (Hamasaki, 1969;
    Solessio & Engbretson, 1999). Nevertheless, its specific ecological
    functions are enigmatic (Eakin, 1973). The frequent evolutionary losses
    could mean that its functionality is easily dispensable, and one
    hypothesis is that the parietal eye is a functionless vestige that is maintained with some degree of complexity in some taxa as a result of
    unknown constraints. As a result of its complex cup-eye design, however,
    the parietal eye must have had an adaptive ancestral photosensory
    function, and alternative adaptive explanations of its maintenance can
    be found either in continuation of ancestral function(s), or in the
    exaptation of new functions. Evidence for current adaptation in the
    broad sense can either be found in direct demonstration of ecologically relevant functionality, or indirectly through meaningful covariation of parietal-eye traits with ecological variables on low phylogenetic levels.

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  • From Trolidan7@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 10 03:06:47 2023
    On 1/8/23 09:11, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 2:13:56 PM UTC-8, Popping Mad wrote:
    Anyone know the details to the third eye in most early tetrapods and
    even in todays reptiles.

    It seems like the strangest turn in evolution.

    Wikipedia has an interesting entry for this; lots of details of which I
    was unaware. It seems
    to a very primitive feature, having develope long before vertebrates,
    possibly primitive to Bilateria(?).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parietal_eye

    Recently PZ Myers got into the molecular evolution of photoreception and
    how it differs across bilaterian phyla. He touched on circadian rhythms
    which though neontological in coverage might be relevant here:

    https://youtu.be/jhexF9rEo-M

    Very interesting.

    The things I get out of it after some reflection are:

    1. The patterning of activities differently for day
    versus night or circadian rhythms, like mentioned earlier,
    may go back all the way to the divergence of bilaterans
    from jellyfisn, if not earlier. Some animals might be
    nocturnal, some diurnal, and some crepuscular, but modifying
    activities based upon day and night in multicellular animals
    with nervous systems is very ancient.

    2. Since this divergence is so ancient, it probably occurred
    in the oceans, where the sunlight penetrates to the photic
    layers but is less significant in the deeper layers.

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  • From Popping Mad@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 10 07:48:45 2023
    On 1/8/23 12:11, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Recently PZ Myers got into the molecular evolution of photoreception


    which has nothing to do with this, fwiw.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JxI1XxHXrc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEL68kt1Q-8

    https://www.science.org/doi/abs/10.1126/science.1123802 https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-642-65495-4_4

    Visual Centers in the Brain pp 113–140Cite as

    The Parietal Eye (Pineal and Parietal Organs) of Lower Vertebrates
    Eberhard Dodt
    Chapter
    315 Accesses

    23 Citations

    3 Altmetric

    Part of the Handbook of Sensory Physiology book series (1536,volume 7 /
    3 / 3 B)

    Abstract
    In the course of evolution the median eyes, in addition to paired
    lateral eyes, have independently developed in several classes of animals including crustaceans, insects and vertebrates. Within the order of
    vertebrates some lower classes including fishes, amphibians and reptiles possess photosensitive structures within the epiphyseal complex deriving ontogenetically from the diencephalon. While the gross anatomy of the
    median eyes has been well examined for over 100 years, the fine
    structure and knowledge of the physiological properties of median photoreceptors has remained remarkably incomplete. Until recently their functional role was based mainly on indirect evidence and speculation,
    except for the classes of crustaceans and insects in which both the
    functional operation and the sensory significance of the median eyes
    (ocelli) are well known.

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  • From Trolidan7@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jan 15 05:47:28 2023
    On 1/8/23 09:11, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 2:13:56 PM UTC-8, Popping Mad wrote:
    Anyone know the details to the third eye in most early tetrapods and
    even in todays reptiles.

    It seems like the strangest turn in evolution.

    Wikipedia has an interesting entry for this; lots of details of which I
    was unaware. It seems
    to a very primitive feature, having develope long before vertebrates,
    possibly primitive to Bilateria(?).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parietal_eye

    Recently PZ Myers got into the molecular evolution of photoreception and
    how it differs across bilaterian phyla. He touched on circadian rhythms
    which though neontological in coverage might be relevant here:

    https://youtu.be/jhexF9rEo-M

    I wonder if there could be something like some sort of
    'living fossils' among some of the advanced jellyfish
    or worms.

    One set of sensors for night, another set of sensors for
    day. The relative output of the sensor sets changes the
    activity patterns.

    Simple inhibitory rather than stimulatory receptors at
    the interface between the two nerve nets or day/night
    nerve fibers determine whether the organism has day or
    night patterned activity.

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  • From Sight Reader@21:1/5 to erik simpson on Sun Jan 15 14:05:55 2023
    On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 5:10:01 PM UTC-7, erik simpson wrote:
    On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 2:13:56 PM UTC-8, Popping Mad wrote:
    Anyone know the details to the third eye in most early tetrapods and
    even in todays reptiles.

    It seems like the strangest turn in evolution.
    Wikipedia has an interesting entry for this; lots of details of which I was unaware. It seems
    to a very primitive feature, having develope long before vertebrates, possibly primitive to Bilateria(?).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parietal_eye

    I suppose the answer to this is obvious but I’d rather not speculate, so here goes: is the 3rd eye more useful for ”cold-blooded” animals than endothermic ones? In other words, might it do more than just regulate sleep and have some sort of
    thermoregulatory function?

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