• Vaccination

    From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Tue Aug 31 04:18:34 2021
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
             Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your hospitals when they >> grow old.
             Grow less and less old, with every new generation.
             He, who didn't manage to understand the Evolution, after 150
    years of the research, he has to get it the hard way.
             Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is actively
    dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince anyone of it.

    Jesus Christ.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Tue Aug 31 04:34:54 2021
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
             Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your hospitals when they
    grow old.
             Grow less and less old, with every new generation.
             He, who didn't manage to understand the Evolution, after 150
    years of the research, he has to get it the hard way.
             Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is actively
    dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince anyone of it.

            Jesus Christ.

    My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your body. Injection
    bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you inject something, your
    body doesn't have a chance to react to it, you surrendered your body,
    flat down.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Tue Aug 31 08:00:02 2021
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
             Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your hospitals when >>>>>> they grow old.
             Grow less and less old, with every new generation. >>>>>>          He, who didn't manage to understand the Evolution, after
    150 years of the research, he has to get it the hard way.
             Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is actively
    dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince anyone of it.

             Jesus Christ.

             My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your body. >>> Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you inject
    something, your body doesn't have a chance to react to it, you
    surrendered your body, flat down.

    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for me.
    Fortunately.

            Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing that is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you magnetic.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Tue Aug 31 18:30:39 2021
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
             Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your hospitals when >>>>>>> they grow old.
             Grow less and less old, with every new generation. >>>>>>>          He, who didn't manage to understand the Evolution, after
    150 years of the research, he has to get it the hard way.
             Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is actively >>>>>> dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince anyone of it.

             Jesus Christ.

             My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your body. >>>> Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you inject
    something, your body doesn't have a chance to react to it, you
    surrendered your body, flat down.

    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for me.
    Fortunately.

             Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing that is >> dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you magnetic.

    Well, that's your theory.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Tue Aug 31 18:12:01 2021
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
             Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your hospitals when
    they grow old.
             Grow less and less old, with every new generation. >>>>>>>>          He, who didn't manage to understand the Evolution, >>>>>>>> after 150 years of the research, he has to get it the hard way. >>>>>>>>          Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is
    actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince anyone >>>>>>> of it.

             Jesus Christ.

             My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your body.
    Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you inject
    something, your body doesn't have a chance to react to it, you
    surrendered your body, flat down.

    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for me.
    Fortunately.

             Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing that is >>> dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you magnetic.

            Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
    justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
    anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Wed Sep 1 08:48:42 2021
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
             Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your hospitals when
    they grow old.
             Grow less and less old, with every new generation. >>>>>>>>>          He, who didn't manage to understand the Evolution, >>>>>>>>> after 150 years of the research, he has to get it the hard way. >>>>>>>>>          Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is
    actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince
    anyone of it.

             Jesus Christ.

             My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your body.
    Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you inject
    something, your body doesn't have a chance to react to it, you
    surrendered your body, flat down.

    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for me.
    Fortunately.

             Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing that is
    dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you magnetic.

             Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
    anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio?

    No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This is the
    purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense mechanism.
    I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But other than
    that, no.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Wed Sep 1 09:56:24 2021
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
             Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your hospitals >>>>>>>>>> when they grow old.
             Grow less and less old, with every new generation. >>>>>>>>>>          He, who didn't manage to understand the Evolution, >>>>>>>>>> after 150 years of the research, he has to get it the hard way. >>>>>>>>>>          Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is
    actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince
    anyone of it.

             Jesus Christ.

             My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your >>>>>>> body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you
    inject something, your body doesn't have a chance to react to it, >>>>>>> you surrendered your body, flat down.

    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for me.
    Fortunately.

             Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing that is
    dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you magnetic.

             Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
    justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
    anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio?

            No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This is the
    purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense mechanism.
            I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But other than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty nail or
    a toothpick?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Wed Sep 1 20:07:54 2021
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
             Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your hospitals >>>>>>>>>>> when they grow old.
             Grow less and less old, with every new generation. >>>>>>>>>>>          He, who didn't manage to understand the Evolution, >>>>>>>>>>> after 150 years of the research, he has to get it the hard way. >>>>>>>>>>>          Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is
    actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince >>>>>>>>>> anyone of it.

             Jesus Christ.

             My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your >>>>>>>> body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you
    inject something, your body doesn't have a chance to react to
    it, you surrendered your body, flat down.

    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for me. >>>>>>> Fortunately.

             Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing that >>>>>> is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you magnetic.

             Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
    justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
    anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio?

             No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I just
    mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This is the
    purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense mechanism.
             I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But other
    than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty nail or
    a toothpick?

    Because this was how we always did this.
    You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you are unable
    to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world isn't sterile, and
    if you are unable to live in the world as it is, well, too bad for you.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Wed Sep 1 13:56:16 2021
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
             Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your hospitals >>>>>>>>>>>> when they grow old.
             Grow less and less old, with every new generation.
             He, who didn't manage to understand the Evolution,
    after 150 years of the research, he has to get it the hard way. >>>>>>>>>>>>          Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is >>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince >>>>>>>>>>> anyone of it.

             Jesus Christ.

             My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your >>>>>>>>> body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you >>>>>>>>> inject something, your body doesn't have a chance to react to >>>>>>>>> it, you surrendered your body, flat down.

    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for
    me. Fortunately.

             Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing that
    is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you magnetic. >>>>>
             Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
    justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
    anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio?

             No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I >>> just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This
    is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense mechanism.
             I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But >>> other than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty nail
    or a toothpick?

            Because this was how we always did this.
            You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you are unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world isn't
    sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is, well, too
    bad for you.

    That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
    refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop
    around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I refrain
    from walking straight off them just because I'm going in that direction.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce antigens
    into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't
    weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
    those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune system or encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Thu Sep 2 06:01:37 2021
    On 2.9.2021. 5:47, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
             Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your hospitals
    when they grow old.
             Grow less and less old, with every new generation.
             He, who didn't manage to understand the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evolution, after 150 years of the research, he has to get >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it the hard way.
             Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is >>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince >>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone of it.

             Jesus Christ.

             My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your
    body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you >>>>>>>>>>> inject something, your body doesn't have a chance to react to >>>>>>>>>>> it, you surrendered your body, flat down.

    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for >>>>>>>>>> me. Fortunately.

             Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing >>>>>>>>> that is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you magnetic. >>>>>>>
             Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
    justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
    anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio? >>>>>
             No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I >>>>> just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This
    is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense
    mechanism.
             I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But >>>>> other than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty
    nail or a toothpick?

             Because this was how we always did this.
             You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you >>> are unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world isn't
    sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is, well,
    too bad for you.

    That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
    refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop
    around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I
    refrain from walking straight off them just because I'm going in that
    direction.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
    antigens into your blood just like those present in live pathogens.
    They don't weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the
    same way those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your
    immune system or encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

            The world, as it is, includes pine needles. It doesn't include
    sterile equipment.
            So, there are two ways to do it, with a pine needle, or with sterile equipment. To do the first, you just find a pine needle. To do
    the second, you just...
            In Evolution the key word is "efficiency". He, who is efficient, he wins. So, I can, either, use pine needles, and the rest
    leave for my body to deal with, or I can use a lot more energy, and equipment, to do *the same thing*. I refuse to do things the second way,
    I have to be efficient to survive.
            The whole world had bubonic plague. The whole world, except India. Why?
            And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent. Vaccination introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just like"
    the real things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to train and be strong. Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't enough. It *has to
    be* a live opponent.
            I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with Covid-19 is in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing
    bags, not to the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.
            They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and survived, has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated. I mean, there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove the reason.
    Scientists behave like they are idiots, if it isn't proven, it doesn't happen. They behave so stupidly, like they are 6 years old.
            This isn't a game.

    I have to add this. Throughout our evolution we used the system that
    gave 7 times better immunity than vaccination. A lot of us died using
    this system , but the ones who survived, they had good and strong immune system. Then we introduced the system which gave us 7 times weaker
    immune system, but we all survived. At first. And now we stopped to all survive. And we have problems. Our whole health care system simply
    collapsed. I mean, don't you see what is happening around you? People
    walk around with muzzles on their months. You say, we can do it. I say,
    go to hell. I'll rather die. This isn't a life a dignified animal should
    live. I am a human, for god's sake. But, I don't look very much like it,
    with this muzzle on my mouth.
    What's next? You say, you use sterile equipment, because you can. Will
    we walk around this planet in a space suit, because we can? Because you
    say that you have a better system than the Nature already evolved. So,
    why you are walking around this world with this muzzle on your mouth?

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Thu Sep 2 05:47:13 2021
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
             Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your hospitals
    when they grow old.
             Grow less and less old, with every new generation.
             He, who didn't manage to understand the Evolution,
    after 150 years of the research, he has to get it the hard >>>>>>>>>>>>> way.
             Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is >>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince >>>>>>>>>>>> anyone of it.

             Jesus Christ.

             My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your >>>>>>>>>> body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you >>>>>>>>>> inject something, your body doesn't have a chance to react to >>>>>>>>>> it, you surrendered your body, flat down.

    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for >>>>>>>>> me. Fortunately.

             Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing that
    is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you magnetic. >>>>>>
             Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
    justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
    anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio?

             No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I >>>> just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This
    is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense mechanism. >>>>          I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But >>>> other than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty nail
    or a toothpick?

             Because this was how we always did this.
             You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you are
    unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world isn't
    sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is, well,
    too bad for you.

    That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
    refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop
    around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I refrain
    from walking straight off them just because I'm going in that direction.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce antigens
    into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't
    weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
    those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune system or encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

    The world, as it is, includes pine needles. It doesn't include sterile
    equipment.
    So, there are two ways to do it, with a pine needle, or with sterile
    equipment. To do the first, you just find a pine needle. To do the
    second, you just...
    In Evolution the key word is "efficiency". He, who is efficient, he
    wins. So, I can, either, use pine needles, and the rest leave for my
    body to deal with, or I can use a lot more energy, and equipment, to do
    *the same thing*. I refuse to do things the second way, I have to be
    efficient to survive.
    The whole world had bubonic plague. The whole world, except India. Why?
    And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent. Vaccination
    introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just like" the real
    things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to train and be strong.
    Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't enough. It *has to be* a
    live opponent.
    I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with Covid-19 is
    in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing bags, not to
    the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.
    They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and survived,
    has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated. I mean,
    there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove the reason. Scientists
    behave like they are idiots, if it isn't proven, it doesn't happen. They
    behave so stupidly, like they are 6 years old.
    This isn't a game.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Thu Sep 2 06:15:13 2021
    On 2.9.2021. 6:01, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 5:47, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
             Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hospitals when they grow old.
             Grow less and less old, with every new generation.
             He, who didn't manage to understand the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evolution, after 150 years of the research, he has to get >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it the hard way.
             Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince >>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone of it.

             Jesus Christ.

             My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your
    body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when >>>>>>>>>>>> you inject something, your body doesn't have a chance to >>>>>>>>>>>> react to it, you surrendered your body, flat down.

    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for >>>>>>>>>>> me. Fortunately.

             Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing >>>>>>>>>> that is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you
    magnetic.

             Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different >>>>>>> justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
    anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio? >>>>>>
             No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
    just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body.
    This is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense
    mechanism.
             I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But >>>>>> other than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty
    nail or a toothpick?

             Because this was how we always did this.
             You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you >>>> are unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world isn't
    sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is, well,
    too bad for you.

    That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
    refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop
    around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I
    refrain from walking straight off them just because I'm going in that
    direction.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
    antigens into your blood just like those present in live pathogens.
    They don't weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly
    the same way those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your
    immune system or encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

             The world, as it is, includes pine needles. It doesn't
    include sterile equipment.
             So, there are two ways to do it, with a pine needle, or with
    sterile equipment. To do the first, you just find a pine needle. To do
    the second, you just...
             In Evolution the key word is "efficiency". He, who is
    efficient, he wins. So, I can, either, use pine needles, and the rest
    leave for my body to deal with, or I can use a lot more energy, and
    equipment, to do *the same thing*. I refuse to do things the second
    way, I have to be efficient to survive.
             The whole world had bubonic plague. The whole world, except >> India. Why?
             And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent.
    Vaccination introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just like"
    the real things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to train and
    be strong. Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't enough. It *has
    to be* a live opponent.
             I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with >> Covid-19 is in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing
    bags, not to the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.
             They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and >> survived, has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated.
    I mean, there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove the reason.
    Scientists behave like they are idiots, if it isn't proven, it doesn't
    happen. They behave so stupidly, like they are 6 years old.
             This isn't a game.

            I have to add this. Throughout our evolution we used the system
    that gave 7 times better immunity than vaccination. A lot of us died
    using this system , but the ones who survived, they had good and strong immune system. Then we introduced the system which gave us 7 times
    weaker immune system, but we all survived. At first. And now we stopped
    to all survive. And we have problems. Our whole health care system
    simply collapsed. I mean, don't you see what is happening around you?
    People walk around with muzzles on their months. You say, we can do it.
    I say, go to hell. I'll rather die. This isn't a life a dignified animal should live. I am a human, for god's sake. But, I don't look very much
    like it, with this muzzle on my mouth.
            What's next? You say, you use sterile equipment, because you can. Will we walk around this planet in a space suit, because we can?
    Because you say that you have a better system than the Nature already evolved. So, why you are walking around this world with this muzzle on
    your mouth?

    So, I'd rather use a pine needle than your sterile equipment. And yes,
    it will be bad for me, because I have more chance to die that way. But,
    this way it would be much better for *us*, because, for sure, *we* will survive, the society will survive, the strongest *will* survive, for sure.
    So, I am suggesting to this society, whoever is using sterile equipment, just stone him. He is a selfish idiot, who doesn't think what
    this will mean for society, he only thinks what this will mean for him,
    he doesn't care about the society. Society should stone those people, if
    it is a smart society, led my smart old men, not by playful young idiots.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Wed Sep 1 21:20:56 2021
    On 9/1/21 9:15 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 6:01, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 5:47, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
             Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hospitals when they grow old.
             Grow less and less old, with every new generation.
             He, who didn't manage to understand the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evolution, after 150 years of the research, he has to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get it the hard way.
             Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convince anyone of it.

             Jesus Christ.

             My advice to you, *never* inject anything into >>>>>>>>>>>>> your body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, >>>>>>>>>>>>> when you inject something, your body doesn't have a chance >>>>>>>>>>>>> to react to it, you surrendered your body, flat down. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have >>>>>>>>>>>> for me. Fortunately.

             Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing >>>>>>>>>>> that is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you
    magnetic.

             Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely
    different justification from your previous one. Do you object to >>>>>>>> dental anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one >>>>>>>> for polio?

             No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
    just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body.
    This is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense >>>>>>> mechanism.
             I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But
    other than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty
    nail or a toothpick?

             Because this was how we always did this.
             You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you
    are unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world
    isn't sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is,
    well, too bad for you.

    That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
    refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop
    around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I
    refrain from walking straight off them just because I'm going in
    that direction.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
    antigens into your blood just like those present in live pathogens.
    They don't weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly
    the same way those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your
    immune system or encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

             The world, as it is, includes pine needles. It doesn't
    include sterile equipment.
             So, there are two ways to do it, with a pine needle, or with
    sterile equipment. To do the first, you just find a pine needle. To
    do the second, you just...
             In Evolution the key word is "efficiency". He, who is
    efficient, he wins. So, I can, either, use pine needles, and the rest
    leave for my body to deal with, or I can use a lot more energy, and
    equipment, to do *the same thing*. I refuse to do things the second
    way, I have to be efficient to survive.
             The whole world had bubonic plague. The whole world, except
    India. Why?
             And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent.
    Vaccination introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just
    like" the real things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to
    train and be strong. Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't
    enough. It *has to be* a live opponent.
             I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with >>> Covid-19 is in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing
    bags, not to the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.
             They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and >>> survived, has 7 times better immunity than the one who was
    vaccinated. I mean, there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove the
    reason. Scientists behave like they are idiots, if it isn't proven,
    it doesn't happen. They behave so stupidly, like they are 6 years old.
             This isn't a game.

             I have to add this. Throughout our evolution we used the
    system that gave 7 times better immunity than vaccination. A lot of us
    died using this system , but the ones who survived, they had good and
    strong immune system. Then we introduced the system which gave us 7
    times weaker immune system, but we all survived. At first. And now we
    stopped to all survive. And we have problems. Our whole health care
    system simply collapsed. I mean, don't you see what is happening
    around you? People walk around with muzzles on their months. You say,
    we can do it. I say, go to hell. I'll rather die. This isn't a life a
    dignified animal should live. I am a human, for god's sake. But, I
    don't look very much like it, with this muzzle on my mouth.
             What's next? You say, you use sterile equipment, because you
    can. Will we walk around this planet in a space suit, because we can?
    Because you say that you have a better system than the Nature already
    evolved. So, why you are walking around this world with this muzzle on
    your mouth?

            So, I'd rather use a pine needle than your sterile equipment. And yes, it will be bad for me, because I have more chance to die that
    way. But, this way it would be much better for *us*, because, for sure,
    *we* will survive, the society will survive, the strongest *will*
    survive, for sure.
            So, I am suggesting to this society, whoever is using sterile equipment, just stone him. He is a selfish idiot, who doesn't think what
    this will mean for society, he only thinks what this will mean for him,
    he doesn't care about the society. Society should stone those people, if
    it is a smart society, led my smart old men, not by playful young idiots.

    To anyone who may be reading this, if indeed there is anyone: I
    apologize for poking him. I will stop now.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Thu Sep 2 06:28:50 2021
    On 2.9.2021. 6:20, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 9:15 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 6:01, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 5:47, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
             Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hospitals when they grow old.
             Grow less and less old, with every new >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generation.
             He, who didn't manage to understand the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evolution, after 150 years of the research, he has to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get it the hard way.
             Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convince anyone of it.

             Jesus Christ.

             My advice to you, *never* inject anything into >>>>>>>>>>>>>> your body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> when you inject something, your body doesn't have a chance >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to react to it, you surrendered your body, flat down. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have >>>>>>>>>>>>> for me. Fortunately.

             Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing
    that is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you >>>>>>>>>>> magnetic.

             Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely
    different justification from your previous one. Do you object >>>>>>>>> to dental anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the >>>>>>>>> one for polio?

             No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination.
    I just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. >>>>>>>> This is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your
    defense mechanism.
             I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But
    other than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty >>>>>>> nail or a toothpick?

             Because this was how we always did this.
             You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you
    are unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world
    isn't sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it
    is, well, too bad for you.

    That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
    refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork
    chop around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet
    I refrain from walking straight off them just because I'm going in
    that direction.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
    antigens into your blood just like those present in live pathogens.
    They don't weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly
    the same way those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken
    your immune system or encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

             The world, as it is, includes pine needles. It doesn't >>>> include sterile equipment.
             So, there are two ways to do it, with a pine needle, or >>>> with sterile equipment. To do the first, you just find a pine
    needle. To do the second, you just...
             In Evolution the key word is "efficiency". He, who is >>>> efficient, he wins. So, I can, either, use pine needles, and the
    rest leave for my body to deal with, or I can use a lot more energy,
    and equipment, to do *the same thing*. I refuse to do things the
    second way, I have to be efficient to survive.
             The whole world had bubonic plague. The whole world, except
    India. Why?
             And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent. >>>> Vaccination introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just
    like" the real things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to
    train and be strong. Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't
    enough. It *has to be* a live opponent.
             I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with
    Covid-19 is in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing
    bags, not to the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.
             They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and
    survived, has 7 times better immunity than the one who was
    vaccinated. I mean, there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove
    the reason. Scientists behave like they are idiots, if it isn't
    proven, it doesn't happen. They behave so stupidly, like they are 6
    years old.
             This isn't a game.

             I have to add this. Throughout our evolution we used the >>> system that gave 7 times better immunity than vaccination. A lot of
    us died using this system , but the ones who survived, they had good
    and strong immune system. Then we introduced the system which gave us
    7 times weaker immune system, but we all survived. At first. And now
    we stopped to all survive. And we have problems. Our whole health
    care system simply collapsed. I mean, don't you see what is happening
    around you? People walk around with muzzles on their months. You say,
    we can do it. I say, go to hell. I'll rather die. This isn't a life a
    dignified animal should live. I am a human, for god's sake. But, I
    don't look very much like it, with this muzzle on my mouth.
             What's next? You say, you use sterile equipment, because you
    can. Will we walk around this planet in a space suit, because we can?
    Because you say that you have a better system than the Nature already
    evolved. So, why you are walking around this world with this muzzle
    on your mouth?

             So, I'd rather use a pine needle than your sterile equipment.
    And yes, it will be bad for me, because I have more chance to die that
    way. But, this way it would be much better for *us*, because, for
    sure, *we* will survive, the society will survive, the strongest
    *will* survive, for sure.
             So, I am suggesting to this society, whoever is using sterile
    equipment, just stone him. He is a selfish idiot, who doesn't think
    what this will mean for society, he only thinks what this will mean
    for him, he doesn't care about the society. Society should stone those
    people, if it is a smart society, led my smart old men, not by playful
    young idiots.

    To anyone who may be reading this, if indeed there is anyone: I
    apologize for poking him. I will stop now.

    Your usual "exit strategy". I've gotten used to it, lol.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Thu Sep 2 06:20:39 2021
    On 2.9.2021. 6:15, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 6:01, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 5:47, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
             Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hospitals when they grow old.
             Grow less and less old, with every new generation.
             He, who didn't manage to understand the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evolution, after 150 years of the research, he has to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get it the hard way.
             Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convince anyone of it.

             Jesus Christ.

             My advice to you, *never* inject anything into >>>>>>>>>>>>> your body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, >>>>>>>>>>>>> when you inject something, your body doesn't have a chance >>>>>>>>>>>>> to react to it, you surrendered your body, flat down. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have >>>>>>>>>>>> for me. Fortunately.

             Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing >>>>>>>>>>> that is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you
    magnetic.

             Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely
    different justification from your previous one. Do you object to >>>>>>>> dental anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one >>>>>>>> for polio?

             No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
    just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body.
    This is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense >>>>>>> mechanism.
             I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But
    other than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty
    nail or a toothpick?

             Because this was how we always did this.
             You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you
    are unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world
    isn't sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is,
    well, too bad for you.

    That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
    refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop
    around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I
    refrain from walking straight off them just because I'm going in
    that direction.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
    antigens into your blood just like those present in live pathogens.
    They don't weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly
    the same way those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your
    immune system or encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

             The world, as it is, includes pine needles. It doesn't
    include sterile equipment.
             So, there are two ways to do it, with a pine needle, or with
    sterile equipment. To do the first, you just find a pine needle. To
    do the second, you just...
             In Evolution the key word is "efficiency". He, who is
    efficient, he wins. So, I can, either, use pine needles, and the rest
    leave for my body to deal with, or I can use a lot more energy, and
    equipment, to do *the same thing*. I refuse to do things the second
    way, I have to be efficient to survive.
             The whole world had bubonic plague. The whole world, except
    India. Why?
             And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent.
    Vaccination introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just
    like" the real things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to
    train and be strong. Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't
    enough. It *has to be* a live opponent.
             I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with >>> Covid-19 is in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing
    bags, not to the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.
             They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and >>> survived, has 7 times better immunity than the one who was
    vaccinated. I mean, there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove the
    reason. Scientists behave like they are idiots, if it isn't proven,
    it doesn't happen. They behave so stupidly, like they are 6 years old.
             This isn't a game.

             I have to add this. Throughout our evolution we used the
    system that gave 7 times better immunity than vaccination. A lot of us
    died using this system , but the ones who survived, they had good and
    strong immune system. Then we introduced the system which gave us 7
    times weaker immune system, but we all survived. At first. And now we
    stopped to all survive. And we have problems. Our whole health care
    system simply collapsed. I mean, don't you see what is happening
    around you? People walk around with muzzles on their months. You say,
    we can do it. I say, go to hell. I'll rather die. This isn't a life a
    dignified animal should live. I am a human, for god's sake. But, I
    don't look very much like it, with this muzzle on my mouth.
             What's next? You say, you use sterile equipment, because you
    can. Will we walk around this planet in a space suit, because we can?
    Because you say that you have a better system than the Nature already
    evolved. So, why you are walking around this world with this muzzle on
    your mouth?

            So, I'd rather use a pine needle than your sterile equipment. And yes, it will be bad for me, because I have more chance to die that
    way. But, this way it would be much better for *us*, because, for sure,
    *we* will survive, the society will survive, the strongest *will*
    survive, for sure.
            So, I am suggesting to this society, whoever is using sterile equipment, just stone him. He is a selfish idiot, who doesn't think what
    this will mean for society, he only thinks what this will mean for him,
    he doesn't care about the society. Society should stone those people, if
    it is a smart society, led my smart old men, not by playful young idiots.

    But, our society, unfortunately, is led by scientists, a type of
    people who never grew up. Instead of growing up, they wasted their
    "growing up" time on their education.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Thu Sep 2 06:27:17 2021
    On 2.9.2021. 6:20, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 6:15, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 6:01, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 5:47, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
             Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hospitals when they grow old.
             Grow less and less old, with every new >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generation.
             He, who didn't manage to understand the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evolution, after 150 years of the research, he has to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get it the hard way.
             Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convince anyone of it.

             Jesus Christ.

             My advice to you, *never* inject anything into >>>>>>>>>>>>>> your body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> when you inject something, your body doesn't have a chance >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to react to it, you surrendered your body, flat down. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have >>>>>>>>>>>>> for me. Fortunately.

             Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing
    that is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you >>>>>>>>>>> magnetic.

             Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely
    different justification from your previous one. Do you object >>>>>>>>> to dental anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the >>>>>>>>> one for polio?

             No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination.
    I just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. >>>>>>>> This is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your
    defense mechanism.
             I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But
    other than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty >>>>>>> nail or a toothpick?

             Because this was how we always did this.
             You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you
    are unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world
    isn't sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it
    is, well, too bad for you.

    That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
    refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork
    chop around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet
    I refrain from walking straight off them just because I'm going in
    that direction.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
    antigens into your blood just like those present in live pathogens.
    They don't weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly
    the same way those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken
    your immune system or encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

             The world, as it is, includes pine needles. It doesn't >>>> include sterile equipment.
             So, there are two ways to do it, with a pine needle, or >>>> with sterile equipment. To do the first, you just find a pine
    needle. To do the second, you just...
             In Evolution the key word is "efficiency". He, who is >>>> efficient, he wins. So, I can, either, use pine needles, and the
    rest leave for my body to deal with, or I can use a lot more energy,
    and equipment, to do *the same thing*. I refuse to do things the
    second way, I have to be efficient to survive.
             The whole world had bubonic plague. The whole world, except
    India. Why?
             And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent. >>>> Vaccination introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just
    like" the real things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to
    train and be strong. Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't
    enough. It *has to be* a live opponent.
             I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with
    Covid-19 is in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing
    bags, not to the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.
             They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and
    survived, has 7 times better immunity than the one who was
    vaccinated. I mean, there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove
    the reason. Scientists behave like they are idiots, if it isn't
    proven, it doesn't happen. They behave so stupidly, like they are 6
    years old.
             This isn't a game.

             I have to add this. Throughout our evolution we used the >>> system that gave 7 times better immunity than vaccination. A lot of
    us died using this system , but the ones who survived, they had good
    and strong immune system. Then we introduced the system which gave us
    7 times weaker immune system, but we all survived. At first. And now
    we stopped to all survive. And we have problems. Our whole health
    care system simply collapsed. I mean, don't you see what is happening
    around you? People walk around with muzzles on their months. You say,
    we can do it. I say, go to hell. I'll rather die. This isn't a life a
    dignified animal should live. I am a human, for god's sake. But, I
    don't look very much like it, with this muzzle on my mouth.
             What's next? You say, you use sterile equipment, because you
    can. Will we walk around this planet in a space suit, because we can?
    Because you say that you have a better system than the Nature already
    evolved. So, why you are walking around this world with this muzzle
    on your mouth?

             So, I'd rather use a pine needle than your sterile equipment.
    And yes, it will be bad for me, because I have more chance to die that
    way. But, this way it would be much better for *us*, because, for
    sure, *we* will survive, the society will survive, the strongest
    *will* survive, for sure.
             So, I am suggesting to this society, whoever is using sterile
    equipment, just stone him. He is a selfish idiot, who doesn't think
    what this will mean for society, he only thinks what this will mean
    for him, he doesn't care about the society. Society should stone those
    people, if it is a smart society, led my smart old men, not by playful
    young idiots.

            But, our society, unfortunately, is led by scientists, a type of people who never grew up. Instead of growing up, they wasted their "growing up" time on their education.

    I mean, "growing up" *is* education. But, education about life, not
    education about some parts of life.
    But, we diversified our resources, we have tongue, we can communicate,
    some of us will do one thing, some others will do another, each will
    become expert on each particular thing, and that way we all will be
    experts in everything. And that's perfectly fine. Only, the mind that
    leads you through your life shouldn't be expert in one thing, but idiot
    on all the other things. This is like, one mind is excellent at looking
    (but he doesn't hear a thing), another one is excellent at hearing (but
    he doesn't see).

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Thu Sep 2 09:16:55 2021
    On 2.9.2021. 6:28, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 6:20, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 9:15 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 6:01, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 5:47, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>          Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hospitals when they grow old.
             Grow less and less old, with every new >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generation.
             He, who didn't manage to understand the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evolution, after 150 years of the research, he has to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get it the hard way.
             Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convince anyone of it.

             Jesus Christ.

             My advice to you, *never* inject anything into >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when you inject something, your body doesn't have a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chance to react to it, you surrendered your body, flat down. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for me. Fortunately.

             Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing
    that is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you >>>>>>>>>>>> magnetic.

             Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely
    different justification from your previous one. Do you object >>>>>>>>>> to dental anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the >>>>>>>>>> one for polio?

             No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination.
    I just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your
    body. This is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your >>>>>>>>> defense mechanism.
             I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. >>>>>>>>> But other than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty >>>>>>>> nail or a toothpick?

             Because this was how we always did this.
             You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise >>>>>>> you are unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the
    world isn't sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world
    as it is, well, too bad for you.

    That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
    refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork
    chop around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet >>>>>> I refrain from walking straight off them just because I'm going in >>>>>> that direction.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
    antigens into your blood just like those present in live
    pathogens. They don't weaken your immune system. They stimulate it >>>>>> in exactly the same way those pathogens would. They certainly
    don't weaken your immune system or encourage weakness. Just the
    opposite.

             The world, as it is, includes pine needles. It doesn't >>>>> include sterile equipment.
             So, there are two ways to do it, with a pine needle, or >>>>> with sterile equipment. To do the first, you just find a pine
    needle. To do the second, you just...
             In Evolution the key word is "efficiency". He, who is >>>>> efficient, he wins. So, I can, either, use pine needles, and the
    rest leave for my body to deal with, or I can use a lot more
    energy, and equipment, to do *the same thing*. I refuse to do
    things the second way, I have to be efficient to survive.
             The whole world had bubonic plague. The whole world, >>>>> except India. Why?
             And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent. >>>>> Vaccination introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just
    like" the real things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to
    train and be strong. Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't
    enough. It *has to be* a live opponent.
             I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with
    Covid-19 is in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to
    boxing bags, not to the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.
             They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and
    survived, has 7 times better immunity than the one who was
    vaccinated. I mean, there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove
    the reason. Scientists behave like they are idiots, if it isn't
    proven, it doesn't happen. They behave so stupidly, like they are 6
    years old.
             This isn't a game.

             I have to add this. Throughout our evolution we used the >>>> system that gave 7 times better immunity than vaccination. A lot of
    us died using this system , but the ones who survived, they had good
    and strong immune system. Then we introduced the system which gave
    us 7 times weaker immune system, but we all survived. At first. And
    now we stopped to all survive. And we have problems. Our whole
    health care system simply collapsed. I mean, don't you see what is
    happening around you? People walk around with muzzles on their
    months. You say, we can do it. I say, go to hell. I'll rather die.
    This isn't a life a dignified animal should live. I am a human, for
    god's sake. But, I don't look very much like it, with this muzzle on
    my mouth.
             What's next? You say, you use sterile equipment, because >>>> you can. Will we walk around this planet in a space suit, because we
    can? Because you say that you have a better system than the Nature
    already evolved. So, why you are walking around this world with this
    muzzle on your mouth?

             So, I'd rather use a pine needle than your sterile
    equipment. And yes, it will be bad for me, because I have more chance
    to die that way. But, this way it would be much better for *us*,
    because, for sure, *we* will survive, the society will survive, the
    strongest *will* survive, for sure.
             So, I am suggesting to this society, whoever is using
    sterile equipment, just stone him. He is a selfish idiot, who doesn't
    think what this will mean for society, he only thinks what this will
    mean for him, he doesn't care about the society. Society should stone
    those people, if it is a smart society, led my smart old men, not by
    playful young idiots.

    To anyone who may be reading this, if indeed there is anyone: I
    apologize for poking him. I will stop now.

            Your usual "exit strategy". I've gotten used to it, lol.

    BTW, "Black Death" was a bubonic plague, 670 years ago. 1/3 of population died, but 670 years on we are still here.
    Bubonic plague is very hard illness, and we survived. Covid-19 is a
    mild virosis, and we are dying from it. Will we be here 670 years from
    now to talk about it?

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From erik simpson@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Thu Sep 2 08:30:10 2021
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 9:21:02 PM UTC-7, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 9:15 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 6:01, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 5:47, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your
    hospitals when they grow old.
    Grow less and less old, with every new generation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He, who didn't manage to understand the
    Evolution, after 150 years of the research, he has to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get it the hard way.
    Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convince anyone of it.

    Jesus Christ.

    My advice to you, *never* inject anything into
    your body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, >>>>>>>>>>>>> when you inject something, your body doesn't have a chance >>>>>>>>>>>>> to react to it, you surrendered your body, flat down. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have >>>>>>>>>>>> for me. Fortunately.

    Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing
    that is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you >>>>>>>>>> magnetic.

    Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely
    different justification from your previous one. Do you object to >>>>>>>> dental anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one >>>>>>>> for polio?

    No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
    just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. >>>>>>> This is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense >>>>>>> mechanism.
    I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But
    other than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty >>>>>> nail or a toothpick?

    Because this was how we always did this.
    You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you
    are unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world
    isn't sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is, >>>>> well, too bad for you.

    That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
    refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop >>>> around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I
    refrain from walking straight off them just because I'm going in
    that direction.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
    antigens into your blood just like those present in live pathogens.
    They don't weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly
    the same way those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your >>>> immune system or encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

    The world, as it is, includes pine needles. It doesn't
    include sterile equipment.
    So, there are two ways to do it, with a pine needle, or with
    sterile equipment. To do the first, you just find a pine needle. To
    do the second, you just...
    In Evolution the key word is "efficiency". He, who is
    efficient, he wins. So, I can, either, use pine needles, and the rest
    leave for my body to deal with, or I can use a lot more energy, and
    equipment, to do *the same thing*. I refuse to do things the second
    way, I have to be efficient to survive.
    The whole world had bubonic plague. The whole world, except
    India. Why?
    And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent.
    Vaccination introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just
    like" the real things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to
    train and be strong. Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't
    enough. It *has to be* a live opponent.
    I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with
    Covid-19 is in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing
    bags, not to the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.
    They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and
    survived, has 7 times better immunity than the one who was
    vaccinated. I mean, there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove the
    reason. Scientists behave like they are idiots, if it isn't proven,
    it doesn't happen. They behave so stupidly, like they are 6 years old. >>> This isn't a game.

    I have to add this. Throughout our evolution we used the
    system that gave 7 times better immunity than vaccination. A lot of us
    died using this system , but the ones who survived, they had good and
    strong immune system. Then we introduced the system which gave us 7
    times weaker immune system, but we all survived. At first. And now we
    stopped to all survive. And we have problems. Our whole health care
    system simply collapsed. I mean, don't you see what is happening
    around you? People walk around with muzzles on their months. You say,
    we can do it. I say, go to hell. I'll rather die. This isn't a life a
    dignified animal should live. I am a human, for god's sake. But, I
    don't look very much like it, with this muzzle on my mouth.
    What's next? You say, you use sterile equipment, because you
    can. Will we walk around this planet in a space suit, because we can?
    Because you say that you have a better system than the Nature already
    evolved. So, why you are walking around this world with this muzzle on
    your mouth?

    So, I'd rather use a pine needle than your sterile equipment.
    And yes, it will be bad for me, because I have more chance to die that
    way. But, this way it would be much better for *us*, because, for sure, *we* will survive, the society will survive, the strongest *will*
    survive, for sure.
    So, I am suggesting to this society, whoever is using sterile
    equipment, just stone him. He is a selfish idiot, who doesn't think what this will mean for society, he only thinks what this will mean for him,
    he doesn't care about the society. Society should stone those people, if
    it is a smart society, led my smart old men, not by playful young idiots.

    To anyone who may be reading this, if indeed there is anyone: I
    apologize for poking him. I will stop now.

    No apology necessary. But this latest rant he's on confirms to me that he's just a
    troll. I still have the probably unjustifiable belief that you can't be that stupid and still
    be alive.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to erik simpson on Thu Sep 2 20:36:27 2021
    On 2.9.2021. 17:30, erik simpson wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 9:21:02 PM UTC-7, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 9:15 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 6:01, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 5:47, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your
    hospitals when they grow old.
    Grow less and less old, with every new generation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He, who didn't manage to understand the
    Evolution, after 150 years of the research, he has to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get it the hard way.
    Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convince anyone of it.

    Jesus Christ.

    My advice to you, *never* inject anything into
    your body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when you inject something, your body doesn't have a chance >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to react to it, you surrendered your body, flat down. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for me. Fortunately.

    Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing
    that is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you >>>>>>>>>>>> magnetic.

    Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely
    different justification from your previous one. Do you object to >>>>>>>>>> dental anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one >>>>>>>>>> for polio?

    No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
    just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. >>>>>>>>> This is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense >>>>>>>>> mechanism.
    I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But
    other than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty >>>>>>>> nail or a toothpick?

    Because this was how we always did this.
    You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you
    are unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world
    isn't sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is, >>>>>>> well, too bad for you.

    That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
    refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop >>>>>> around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I
    refrain from walking straight off them just because I'm going in
    that direction.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
    antigens into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. >>>>>> They don't weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly >>>>>> the same way those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your >>>>>> immune system or encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

    The world, as it is, includes pine needles. It doesn't
    include sterile equipment.
    So, there are two ways to do it, with a pine needle, or with
    sterile equipment. To do the first, you just find a pine needle. To
    do the second, you just...
    In Evolution the key word is "efficiency". He, who is
    efficient, he wins. So, I can, either, use pine needles, and the rest >>>>> leave for my body to deal with, or I can use a lot more energy, and
    equipment, to do *the same thing*. I refuse to do things the second
    way, I have to be efficient to survive.
    The whole world had bubonic plague. The whole world, except
    India. Why?
    And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent.
    Vaccination introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just
    like" the real things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to
    train and be strong. Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't
    enough. It *has to be* a live opponent.
    I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with
    Covid-19 is in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing >>>>> bags, not to the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.
    They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and
    survived, has 7 times better immunity than the one who was
    vaccinated. I mean, there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove the >>>>> reason. Scientists behave like they are idiots, if it isn't proven,
    it doesn't happen. They behave so stupidly, like they are 6 years old. >>>>> This isn't a game.

    I have to add this. Throughout our evolution we used the
    system that gave 7 times better immunity than vaccination. A lot of us >>>> died using this system , but the ones who survived, they had good and
    strong immune system. Then we introduced the system which gave us 7
    times weaker immune system, but we all survived. At first. And now we
    stopped to all survive. And we have problems. Our whole health care
    system simply collapsed. I mean, don't you see what is happening
    around you? People walk around with muzzles on their months. You say,
    we can do it. I say, go to hell. I'll rather die. This isn't a life a
    dignified animal should live. I am a human, for god's sake. But, I
    don't look very much like it, with this muzzle on my mouth.
    What's next? You say, you use sterile equipment, because you
    can. Will we walk around this planet in a space suit, because we can?
    Because you say that you have a better system than the Nature already
    evolved. So, why you are walking around this world with this muzzle on >>>> your mouth?

    So, I'd rather use a pine needle than your sterile equipment.
    And yes, it will be bad for me, because I have more chance to die that
    way. But, this way it would be much better for *us*, because, for sure,
    *we* will survive, the society will survive, the strongest *will*
    survive, for sure.
    So, I am suggesting to this society, whoever is using sterile
    equipment, just stone him. He is a selfish idiot, who doesn't think what >>> this will mean for society, he only thinks what this will mean for him,
    he doesn't care about the society. Society should stone those people, if >>> it is a smart society, led my smart old men, not by playful young idiots. >>>
    To anyone who may be reading this, if indeed there is anyone: I
    apologize for poking him. I will stop now.

    No apology necessary. But this latest rant he's on confirms to me that he's just a
    troll. I still have the probably unjustifiable belief that you can't be that stupid and still
    be alive.

    Well, if you are a human, you can be stupid, and still be alive.
    But, not for long.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From *Hemidactylus*@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Thu Sep 2 17:47:25 2021
    John Harshman <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
             Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your hospitals
    when they grow old.
             Grow less and less old, with every new generation.
             He, who didn't manage to understand the Evolution,
    after 150 years of the research, he has to get it the hard way. >>>>>>>>>>>>>          Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is >>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince >>>>>>>>>>>> anyone of it.

             Jesus Christ.

             My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your >>>>>>>>>> body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you >>>>>>>>>> inject something, your body doesn't have a chance to react to >>>>>>>>>> it, you surrendered your body, flat down.

    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for >>>>>>>>> me. Fortunately.

             Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing that
    is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you magnetic. >>>>>>
             Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
    justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
    anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio?

             No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I >>>> just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This
    is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense mechanism. >>>>          I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But >>>> other than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty nail
    or a toothpick?

            Because this was how we always did this.
            You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you are >> unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world isn't
    sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is, well, too
    bad for you.

    That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
    refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop
    around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I refrain
    from walking straight off them just because I'm going in that direction.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce antigens
    into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't
    weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
    those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune system or encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

    A recent meme I saw captures it well. EMS is loading a guy in dire need of medical help on a gurney into an ambulance. He asks if they are
    transporting him to the hospital. One of the emergency medics says no,
    instead they are taking him to the experts in the “comments section”. Priceless. Such idiocy now abounds.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From *Hemidactylus*@21:1/5 to erik simpson on Thu Sep 2 17:49:49 2021
    erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 9:21:02 PM UTC-7, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 9:15 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 6:01, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 5:47, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your
    hospitals when they grow old.
    Grow less and less old, with every new generation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He, who didn't manage to understand the
    Evolution, after 150 years of the research, he has to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get it the hard way.
    Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convince anyone of it.

    Jesus Christ.

    My advice to you, *never* inject anything into
    your body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when you inject something, your body doesn't have a chance >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to react to it, you surrendered your body, flat down. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for me. Fortunately.

    Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing
    that is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you >>>>>>>>>>>> magnetic.

    Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely
    different justification from your previous one. Do you object to >>>>>>>>>> dental anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one >>>>>>>>>> for polio?

    No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
    just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. >>>>>>>>> This is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense >>>>>>>>> mechanism.
    I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But
    other than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty >>>>>>>> nail or a toothpick?

    Because this was how we always did this.
    You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you
    are unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world
    isn't sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is, >>>>>>> well, too bad for you.

    That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
    refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop >>>>>> around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I
    refrain from walking straight off them just because I'm going in
    that direction.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
    antigens into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. >>>>>> They don't weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly >>>>>> the same way those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your >>>>>> immune system or encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

    The world, as it is, includes pine needles. It doesn't
    include sterile equipment.
    So, there are two ways to do it, with a pine needle, or with
    sterile equipment. To do the first, you just find a pine needle. To
    do the second, you just...
    In Evolution the key word is "efficiency". He, who is
    efficient, he wins. So, I can, either, use pine needles, and the rest >>>>> leave for my body to deal with, or I can use a lot more energy, and
    equipment, to do *the same thing*. I refuse to do things the second
    way, I have to be efficient to survive.
    The whole world had bubonic plague. The whole world, except
    India. Why?
    And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent.
    Vaccination introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just
    like" the real things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to
    train and be strong. Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't
    enough. It *has to be* a live opponent.
    I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with
    Covid-19 is in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing >>>>> bags, not to the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.
    They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and
    survived, has 7 times better immunity than the one who was
    vaccinated. I mean, there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove the >>>>> reason. Scientists behave like they are idiots, if it isn't proven,
    it doesn't happen. They behave so stupidly, like they are 6 years old. >>>>> This isn't a game.

    I have to add this. Throughout our evolution we used the
    system that gave 7 times better immunity than vaccination. A lot of us >>>> died using this system , but the ones who survived, they had good and
    strong immune system. Then we introduced the system which gave us 7
    times weaker immune system, but we all survived. At first. And now we
    stopped to all survive. And we have problems. Our whole health care
    system simply collapsed. I mean, don't you see what is happening
    around you? People walk around with muzzles on their months. You say,
    we can do it. I say, go to hell. I'll rather die. This isn't a life a
    dignified animal should live. I am a human, for god's sake. But, I
    don't look very much like it, with this muzzle on my mouth.
    What's next? You say, you use sterile equipment, because you
    can. Will we walk around this planet in a space suit, because we can?
    Because you say that you have a better system than the Nature already
    evolved. So, why you are walking around this world with this muzzle on >>>> your mouth?

    So, I'd rather use a pine needle than your sterile equipment.
    And yes, it will be bad for me, because I have more chance to die that
    way. But, this way it would be much better for *us*, because, for sure,
    *we* will survive, the society will survive, the strongest *will*
    survive, for sure.
    So, I am suggesting to this society, whoever is using sterile
    equipment, just stone him. He is a selfish idiot, who doesn't think what >>> this will mean for society, he only thinks what this will mean for him,
    he doesn't care about the society. Society should stone those people, if >>> it is a smart society, led my smart old men, not by playful young idiots. >>>
    To anyone who may be reading this, if indeed there is anyone: I
    apologize for poking him. I will stop now.

    No apology necessary. But this latest rant he's on confirms to me that he's just a
    troll. I still have the probably unjustifiable belief that you can't be
    that stupid and still
    be alive.

    Maybe just really lucky.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to All on Fri Sep 3 04:20:53 2021
    On 3.9.2021. 0:47, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    John Harshman <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
             Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your hospitals
    when they grow old.
             Grow less and less old, with every new generation.
             He, who didn't manage to understand the Evolution,
    after 150 years of the research, he has to get it the hard way. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>          Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is >>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince >>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone of it.

             Jesus Christ.

             My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your
    body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you >>>>>>>>>>> inject something, your body doesn't have a chance to react to >>>>>>>>>>> it, you surrendered your body, flat down.

    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for >>>>>>>>>> me. Fortunately.

             Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing that
    is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you magnetic. >>>>>>>
             Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
    justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
    anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio? >>>>>
             No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
    just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This
    is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense mechanism. >>>>>          I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But >>>>> other than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty nail
    or a toothpick?

            Because this was how we always did this.
            You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you are
    unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world isn't
    sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is, well, too
    bad for you.

    That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
    refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop
    around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I refrain
    from walking straight off them just because I'm going in that direction.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce antigens
    into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't
    weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
    those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune system or
    encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

    A recent meme I saw captures it well. EMS is loading a guy in dire need of medical help on a gurney into an ambulance. He asks if they are
    transporting him to the hospital. One of the emergency medics says no, instead they are taking him to the experts in the “comments section”. Priceless. Such idiocy now abounds.

    Peter, you are overrating those guys, they are stupid, not worth your
    time.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mark Isaak@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Fri Sep 3 22:28:48 2021
    On 9/1/21 8:47 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
             Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your hospitals
    when they grow old.
             Grow less and less old, with every new generation.
             He, who didn't manage to understand the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evolution, after 150 years of the research, he has to get >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it the hard way.
             Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is >>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince >>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone of it.

             Jesus Christ.

             My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your
    body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you >>>>>>>>>>> inject something, your body doesn't have a chance to react to >>>>>>>>>>> it, you surrendered your body, flat down.

    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for >>>>>>>>>> me. Fortunately.

             Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing >>>>>>>>> that is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you magnetic. >>>>>>>
             Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
    justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
    anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio? >>>>>
             No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I >>>>> just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This
    is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense
    mechanism.
             I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But >>>>> other than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty
    nail or a toothpick?

             Because this was how we always did this.
             You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you >>> are unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world isn't
    sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is, well,
    too bad for you.

    That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
    refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop
    around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I
    refrain from walking straight off them just because I'm going in that
    direction.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
    antigens into your blood just like those present in live pathogens.
    They don't weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the
    same way those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your
    immune system or encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

            The world, as it is, includes pine needles. It doesn't include
    sterile equipment.
            So, there are two ways to do it, with a pine needle, or with sterile equipment. To do the first, you just find a pine needle. To do
    the second, you just...
            In Evolution the key word is "efficiency". He, who is efficient, he wins. So, I can, either, use pine needles, and the rest
    leave for my body to deal with, or I can use a lot more energy, and equipment, to do *the same thing*. I refuse to do things the second way,
    I have to be efficient to survive.
            The whole world had bubonic plague. The whole world, except India. Why?

    The bubonic plague did hit India.

    --
    Mark Isaak eciton (at) curioustaxonomy (dot) net
    "Omnia disce. Videbis postea nihil esse superfluum."
    - Hugh of St. Victor

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oxyaena@21:1/5 to erik simpson on Sun Sep 5 08:51:28 2021
    On 9/2/2021 11:30 AM, erik simpson wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 9:21:02 PM UTC-7, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 9:15 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 6:01, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 5:47, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your
    hospitals when they grow old.
    Grow less and less old, with every new generation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He, who didn't manage to understand the
    Evolution, after 150 years of the research, he has to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get it the hard way.
    Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convince anyone of it.

    Jesus Christ.

    My advice to you, *never* inject anything into
    your body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when you inject something, your body doesn't have a chance >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to react to it, you surrendered your body, flat down. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for me. Fortunately.

    Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing
    that is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you >>>>>>>>>>>> magnetic.

    Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely
    different justification from your previous one. Do you object to >>>>>>>>>> dental anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one >>>>>>>>>> for polio?

    No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
    just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. >>>>>>>>> This is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense >>>>>>>>> mechanism.
    I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But
    other than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty >>>>>>>> nail or a toothpick?

    Because this was how we always did this.
    You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you
    are unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world
    isn't sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is, >>>>>>> well, too bad for you.

    That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
    refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop >>>>>> around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I
    refrain from walking straight off them just because I'm going in
    that direction.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
    antigens into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. >>>>>> They don't weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly >>>>>> the same way those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your >>>>>> immune system or encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

    The world, as it is, includes pine needles. It doesn't
    include sterile equipment.
    So, there are two ways to do it, with a pine needle, or with
    sterile equipment. To do the first, you just find a pine needle. To
    do the second, you just...
    In Evolution the key word is "efficiency". He, who is
    efficient, he wins. So, I can, either, use pine needles, and the rest >>>>> leave for my body to deal with, or I can use a lot more energy, and
    equipment, to do *the same thing*. I refuse to do things the second
    way, I have to be efficient to survive.
    The whole world had bubonic plague. The whole world, except
    India. Why?
    And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent.
    Vaccination introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just
    like" the real things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to
    train and be strong. Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't
    enough. It *has to be* a live opponent.
    I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with
    Covid-19 is in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing >>>>> bags, not to the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.
    They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and
    survived, has 7 times better immunity than the one who was
    vaccinated. I mean, there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove the >>>>> reason. Scientists behave like they are idiots, if it isn't proven,
    it doesn't happen. They behave so stupidly, like they are 6 years old. >>>>> This isn't a game.

    I have to add this. Throughout our evolution we used the
    system that gave 7 times better immunity than vaccination. A lot of us >>>> died using this system , but the ones who survived, they had good and
    strong immune system. Then we introduced the system which gave us 7
    times weaker immune system, but we all survived. At first. And now we
    stopped to all survive. And we have problems. Our whole health care
    system simply collapsed. I mean, don't you see what is happening
    around you? People walk around with muzzles on their months. You say,
    we can do it. I say, go to hell. I'll rather die. This isn't a life a
    dignified animal should live. I am a human, for god's sake. But, I
    don't look very much like it, with this muzzle on my mouth.
    What's next? You say, you use sterile equipment, because you
    can. Will we walk around this planet in a space suit, because we can?
    Because you say that you have a better system than the Nature already
    evolved. So, why you are walking around this world with this muzzle on >>>> your mouth?

    So, I'd rather use a pine needle than your sterile equipment.
    And yes, it will be bad for me, because I have more chance to die that
    way. But, this way it would be much better for *us*, because, for sure,
    *we* will survive, the society will survive, the strongest *will*
    survive, for sure.
    So, I am suggesting to this society, whoever is using sterile
    equipment, just stone him. He is a selfish idiot, who doesn't think what >>> this will mean for society, he only thinks what this will mean for him,
    he doesn't care about the society. Society should stone those people, if >>> it is a smart society, led my smart old men, not by playful young idiots. >>>
    To anyone who may be reading this, if indeed there is anyone: I
    apologize for poking him. I will stop now.

    No apology necessary. But this latest rant he's on confirms to me that he's just a
    troll. I still have the probably unjustifiable belief that you can't be that stupid and still
    be alive.


    I don't know, one look at Peter proves that one can *indeed* be that
    stupid and somehow end up a tenured professor.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oxyaena@21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 5 08:49:50 2021
    On 9/2/2021 6:47 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    John Harshman <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
             Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your hospitals
    when they grow old.
             Grow less and less old, with every new generation.
             He, who didn't manage to understand the Evolution,
    after 150 years of the research, he has to get it the hard way. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>          Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is >>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince >>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone of it.

             Jesus Christ.

             My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your
    body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you >>>>>>>>>>> inject something, your body doesn't have a chance to react to >>>>>>>>>>> it, you surrendered your body, flat down.

    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for >>>>>>>>>> me. Fortunately.

             Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing that
    is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you magnetic. >>>>>>>
             Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
    justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
    anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio? >>>>>
             No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
    just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This
    is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense mechanism. >>>>>          I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But >>>>> other than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty nail
    or a toothpick?

            Because this was how we always did this.
            You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you are
    unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world isn't
    sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is, well, too
    bad for you.

    That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
    refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop
    around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I refrain
    from walking straight off them just because I'm going in that direction.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce antigens
    into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't
    weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
    those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune system or
    encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

    A recent meme I saw captures it well. EMS is loading a guy in dire need of medical help on a gurney into an ambulance. He asks if they are
    transporting him to the hospital. One of the emergency medics says no, instead they are taking him to the experts in the “comments section”. Priceless. Such idiocy now abounds.


    Careful now, Mario is the server's esteemed resident polymath numero
    duo, after the all-knowing mathematician himself. Insults to such an accomplished figure are severely unwarranted.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Sun Sep 5 14:51:59 2021
    On 9/5/21 2:30 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 5.9.2021. 14:49, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/2/2021 6:47 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    John Harshman <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
              Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your hospitals
    when they grow old.
              Grow less and less old, with every new >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generation.
              He, who didn't manage to understand the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evolution,
    after 150 years of the research, he has to get it the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard way.
              Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone of it.

              Jesus Christ.

              My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your
    body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you >>>>>>>>>>>>> inject something, your body doesn't have a chance to react to >>>>>>>>>>>>> it, you surrendered your body, flat down.

    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for >>>>>>>>>>>> me. Fortunately.

              Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing
    that
    is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you
    magnetic.

              Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different >>>>>>>> justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
    anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio? >>>>>>>
              No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
    just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This >>>>>>> is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense
    mechanism.
              I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But
    other than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty nail >>>>>> or a toothpick?

             Because this was how we always did this.
             You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you are
    unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world isn't
    sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is, well,
    too
    bad for you.

    That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
    refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop
    around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I refrain >>>> from walking straight off them just because I'm going in that
    direction.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
    antigens
    into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't
    weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
    those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune
    system or
    encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

    A recent meme I saw captures it well. EMS is loading a guy in dire
    need of
    medical help on a gurney into an ambulance. He asks if they are
    transporting him to the hospital. One of the emergency medics says no,
    instead they are taking him to the experts in the “comments section”. >>> Priceless. Such idiocy now abounds.


    Careful now, Mario is the server's esteemed resident polymath numero
    duo, after the all-knowing mathematician himself. Insults to such an
    accomplished figure are severely unwarranted.

            Careful with that vaccination, Eugene. https://youtu.be/YtZqNAI4pBk

    Should have said "Careful with that vax", but kudos for the Pink Floyd reference.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to Oxyaena on Sun Sep 5 23:30:49 2021
    On 5.9.2021. 14:49, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/2/2021 6:47 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    John Harshman <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
              Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your hospitals
    when they grow old.
              Grow less and less old, with every new generation.
              He, who didn't manage to understand the Evolution,
    after 150 years of the research, he has to get it the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard way.
              Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince >>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone of it.

              Jesus Christ.

              My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your
    body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you >>>>>>>>>>>> inject something, your body doesn't have a chance to react to >>>>>>>>>>>> it, you surrendered your body, flat down.

    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for >>>>>>>>>>> me. Fortunately.

              Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing that
    is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you
    magnetic.

              Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different >>>>>>> justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
    anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio? >>>>>>
              No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
    just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This >>>>>> is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense
    mechanism.
              I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But
    other than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty nail >>>>> or a toothpick?

             Because this was how we always did this.
             You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you are
    unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world isn't
    sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is, well, too >>>> bad for you.

    That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
    refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop
    around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I refrain
    from walking straight off them just because I'm going in that direction. >>>
    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce antigens >>> into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't
    weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
    those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune system or >>> encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

    A recent meme I saw captures it well. EMS is loading a guy in dire
    need of
    medical help on a gurney into an ambulance. He asks if they are
    transporting him to the hospital. One of the emergency medics says no,
    instead they are taking him to the experts in the “comments section”.
    Priceless. Such idiocy now abounds.


    Careful now, Mario is the server's esteemed resident polymath numero
    duo, after the all-knowing mathematician himself. Insults to such an accomplished figure are severely unwarranted.

    Careful with that vaccination, Eugene. https://youtu.be/YtZqNAI4pBk

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Mon Sep 6 02:48:04 2021
    On 5.9.2021. 23:51, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/5/21 2:30 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 5.9.2021. 14:49, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/2/2021 6:47 PM, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    John Harshman <jharshman@pacbell.net> wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
              Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hospitals
    when they grow old.
              Grow less and less old, with every new >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> generation.
              He, who didn't manage to understand the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evolution,
    after 150 years of the research, he has to get it the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard way.
              Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to convince >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone of it.

              Jesus Christ.

              My advice to you, *never* inject anything into your
    body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, when you >>>>>>>>>>>>>> inject something, your body doesn't have a chance to react to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, you surrendered your body, flat down.

    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have for >>>>>>>>>>>>> me. Fortunately.

              Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing
    that
    is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you >>>>>>>>>>> magnetic.

              Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different >>>>>>>>> justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental >>>>>>>>> anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for >>>>>>>>> polio?

              No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
    just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This >>>>>>>> is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense
    mechanism.
              I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But
    other than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty >>>>>>> nail
    or a toothpick?

             Because this was how we always did this.
             You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you
    are
    unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world isn't
    sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is,
    well, too
    bad for you.

    That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
    refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop >>>>> around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I
    refrain
    from walking straight off them just because I'm going in that
    direction.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
    antigens
    into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't >>>>> weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way >>>>> those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune
    system or
    encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

    A recent meme I saw captures it well. EMS is loading a guy in dire
    need of
    medical help on a gurney into an ambulance. He asks if they are
    transporting him to the hospital. One of the emergency medics says no, >>>> instead they are taking him to the experts in the “comments section”. >>>> Priceless. Such idiocy now abounds.


    Careful now, Mario is the server's esteemed resident polymath numero
    duo, after the all-knowing mathematician himself. Insults to such an
    accomplished figure are severely unwarranted.

             Careful with that vaccination, Eugene.
    https://youtu.be/YtZqNAI4pBk

    Should have said "Careful with that vax", but kudos for the Pink Floyd reference.

    Ah, thanks.
    I'm always glad to learn more English.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to Oxyaena on Mon Sep 6 17:18:27 2021
    On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 8:51:31 AM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/2/2021 11:30 AM, erik simpson wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 9:21:02 PM UTC-7, John Harshman wrote:

    I've snipped a bunch of things that I will have to reprimand Mario about,
    but first, I need to defend my reputation, because no one -- not even Mario -- will do it for me, whereas there are several who are still willing to defend the
    reputation of Oxyaena/Thrinaxodon.

    To anyone who may be reading this, if indeed there is anyone: I
    apologize for poking him. I will stop now.

    No apology necessary. But this latest rant he's on confirms to me that he's just a
    troll. I still have the probably unjustifiable belief that you can't be that stupid and still
    be alive.

    I don't know,

    Thrinaxodon/Oxyaena knows, but finds it much more rewarding to be loved
    by people named below for pretending otherwise:

    one look at Peter proves that one can *indeed* be that
    stupid and somehow end up a tenured professor.

    Of course, Oxyaena/Thrinaxodon knows better than to tell anyone
    what, if anything, "that stupid" refers to: it would ruin the whole effect.

    One look at the posting history of Thrinaxodon, having tried for six years to reinvent herself as Oxyaena,
    shows how a dog returns to his/her vomit at last.

    And Thrinaxodon/Oxyaena can do it as long as 'e wants, because Harshman, Simpson, Hemidactylus,
    Mark Issaak, jillery, and others who show up too infrequently on sci.bio.paleontology to be worth
    mentioning, can be counted on to play "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" about that vomit.

    The most you will ever see is the way Harshman played "good cop" to "bad cop" Oxyaena,
    when the latter puked all over me for not knowing about a Mesozoic gliding mammal,
    saying that one shouldn't be so nasty right off the bat to "even someone like Peter."

    Harshman exited the thread when Oxyaena proved to be too hatefully incorrigible,
    and so he missed how I later discovered the thread and admitted to my carelessness
    in not having specified "Cenozoic gliding mammal".

    To my mind it was clear from the way bat ancestry was the theme, and no gliding mammals
    have been found among fossils within the whole of Eutheria, let alone the crown group Placentalia,
    before modern bats are found in the fossil record.

    Eutheria split off from Metatheria (marsupials and kin) well back in the Cretaceous, so "Cenozoic"
    was understating the case, but there was no need for overkill.


    I wonder whether this incident was what Oxyaena had in mind when writing "that stupid." The way
    'e kept referring to me as "Professor Asshat" on that thread, it is certainly possible.


    Peter Nyikos
    Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
    University of South Carolina
    http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Mon Sep 6 17:23:53 2021
    On 9/6/21 5:18 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 8:51:31 AM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/2/2021 11:30 AM, erik simpson wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 9:21:02 PM UTC-7, John Harshman wrote:

    I've snipped a bunch of things that I will have to reprimand Mario about,

    You really should get on with that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Mon Sep 6 18:32:37 2021
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different
    justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
    anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio? >>>>
    No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
    just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This
    is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense mechanism.

    Wrong, Mario. It is to give your defense mechanism more of
    a sporting chance. Please read far enough to see what I mean by this.


    <snip for focus>


    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce antigens into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
    those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune system or encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

    Harshman was being very sensible here, Mario, but you seem to have
    lost sight of his main point.

    <snip for focus>


    And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent. Vaccination
    introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just like" the real
    things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to train and be strong.

    WRONG! It is like a boxer, working out with a sparring partner when
    training to fight someone whose tactics the sparring partner can
    train him to counteract.

    Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't enough. It *has to be* a
    live opponent.

    You have completely missed the point.

    Vaccination is exactly like admitting a sparring partner into your gym
    who is superb at imitating the professional whom it would be terribly risky
    to fight without plenty of training. Only, except in rare cases, your vaccine "sparring partner"
    knows better than to deal blows that could hurt you badly.

    Is that what you are really afraid of, that an anti-Covid-2 vaccine is more likely
    to hurt you, and to hurt you worse, than an invasion of SARS-CoV-2 viruses
    that your immune system hasn't got the any antibodies for?

    This is contrary to all experience. Yes, you could have adverse effects; one secretary who got the Moderna vaccine said she felt as though her arm would fall off after the first dose. But it only lasted for a few days, and the second dose
    wasn't nearly as bad.

    It's like hiring a sparring partner who needs some experience to figure out
    how to spar with you without you hurting yourself. For instance, you might get a bloody nose
    by moving your head the wrong way when the two of you go into a clinch.
    But he'll show you the right way to clinch if you are patient.

    And it is nothing like the permanent damage to your lungs or liver you
    could get from Covid-19. You can read about some of the grisly possibilities here,
    as well as the jarring statistic you can read already from the url (95 means 95%):

    https://theconversation.com/at-my-hospital-over-95-of-covid-19-patients-share-one-thing-in-common-theyre-unvaccinated-166708#_=_


    I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with Covid-19 is
    in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing bags, not to
    the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.

    You are on the right track, but you aren't connecting the dots sufficiently.
    A vaccine is not at all like a boxing bag. I hope I've made that clear.

    And please take the following to heart. Without prior exposure to the coronavirus,
    you are unlikely to have any antibodies that protect you from it, and your immune
    system has no memory that a prior exposure gives of what kinds of antibodies
    to crank out.

    And so, it has to figure out by trial and error when the virus invades. And while
    it is figuring it out, the virus multiplies fast enough to be in a good position
    to overwhelm your system before enough antibodies can be produced.


    They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and survived,
    has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated.

    But please, note that he also could suffer terrible physical damage even if
    he survived. Fat lot of good any immunity will do him if he is an invalid for the rest of his life.


    I mean, there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove the reason.

    Yes, "They say" just doesn't cut it.


    Scientists behave like they are idiots, if it isn't proven, it doesn't happen.

    Do NOT confuse Harshman, the only one here with a degree in biology [although
    I suspect Pandora has one and is a far better scientist than Harshman] with
    a scientist who hasn't forgotten how to teach adults.

    Harshman has been spoiled rotten by the other people I've named up there,
    and others like them, and also fans who know even less than they do,
    into thinking that a few well chosen words by him -- and the ones up there WERE well chosen -- should work magic in the minds of the people who read them.
    If they don't, he figures it's their fault.


    Peter Nyikos
    Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
    Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
    http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Tue Sep 7 05:00:14 2021
    On 7.9.2021. 4:51, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
            And this is the problem with vaccination. Our immune system fights diseases guided by a vaccine. This makes him less fit. Because we
    all will be less fit, we all will die if we continue to use vaccination.
    This Covid-19 thing is just the first glimpse of the shape of things to
    come. It'll be worse and worse, this is just the first glimpse.

    Actually, this is excellent analogy. Fighting viruses with vaccines is
    like if a perfectly fit man (the immune system) would let be guided by a
    blind man (a vaccine). See? This is what this actually is. A perfectly
    fit boxer guided by a boxing beg.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Tue Sep 7 04:51:57 2021
    On 7.9.2021. 3:32, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different >>>>>>> justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
    anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio? >>>>>>
    No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
    just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This >>>>>> is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense mechanism.

    Wrong, Mario. It is to give your defense mechanism more of
    a sporting chance. Please read far enough to see what I mean by this.

    Well, why we don't swallow it, or inhale? Because in that case, our
    body would process it, wouldn't it? And spit it out. Our body controls
    our inhalation and what we swallow.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce antigens >>> into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't
    weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
    those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune system or >>> encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

    Harshman was being very sensible here, Mario, but you seem to have
    lost sight of his main point.

    And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent. Vaccination
    introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just like" the real
    things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to train and be strong.

    WRONG! It is like a boxer, working out with a sparring partner when
    training to fight someone whose tactics the sparring partner can
    train him to counteract.

    WRONG! I mean, those things are LEGO cubes, aren't they? You say that
    we created something that is alive, and with its own mind, and
    everything? No, we didn't. I very much doubt. And that we "programmed"
    it to work like the "real thing". So, why don't you create a sparring
    partner for a boxer to train, instead using a live humans?

    Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't enough. It *has to be* a
    live opponent.

    You have completely missed the point.

    Vaccination is exactly like admitting a sparring partner into your gym
    who is superb at imitating the professional whom it would be terribly risky to fight without plenty of training. Only, except in rare cases, your vaccine "sparring partner"
    knows better than to deal blows that could hurt you badly.

    Hm, in somebody's dreams.

    Is that what you are really afraid of, that an anti-Covid-2 vaccine is more likely
    to hurt you, and to hurt you worse, than an invasion of SARS-CoV-2 viruses that your immune system hasn't got the any antibodies for?

    Not at all (it is you who missed the point). I explained it in detail,
    I am claiming that our immune system will become worse, less agile and
    it will be disoriented, if vaccination "helps" him to work. Just like I mentioned cars that "help" us to walk.

    This is contrary to all experience. Yes, you could have adverse effects; one secretary who got the Moderna vaccine said she felt as though her arm would fall off after the first dose. But it only lasted for a few days, and the second dose
    wasn't nearly as bad.

    It's like hiring a sparring partner who needs some experience to figure out how to spar with you without you hurting yourself. For instance, you might get a bloody nose
    by moving your head the wrong way when the two of you go into a clinch.
    But he'll show you the right way to clinch if you are patient.

    No, it is nothing like that. It is like using robots to be sparring
    partners. They will never be good enough. And, by saying this, I was
    more than generous in comparing robots to this thing.

    And it is nothing like the permanent damage to your lungs or liver you
    could get from Covid-19. You can read about some of the grisly possibilities here,
    as well as the jarring statistic you can read already from the url (95 means 95%):

    https://theconversation.com/at-my-hospital-over-95-of-covid-19-patients-share-one-thing-in-common-theyre-unvaccinated-166708#_=_

    I don't know people, do you read at all, about Covid-19 illness? It is
    NOT caused by the virus. It is that, weak organisms are destroyed by our
    immune system that lost its calibration.
    See, you have short people, you have tall people. But, you don't have
    people 2 miles high, nor you have people 2 millimeters short. There are
    some proportions, and some buffer zone for variations, that is embedded
    in us. All humans are between 0.5 meters and 3 meters.
    And the same goes for everything. This is how things work, things
    don't behave like they are mad. But, our immune system blew up those proportions, and inflict our bodies too hard. If organism is too weak,
    it will not withstand that pressure. And exactly this is what is
    happening, weak organisms die because our immune system is working too
    hard. Virus isn't the problem at all, it is the not-adjusted work of our
    immune system that is the problem. Our immune system isn't sure,
    anymore, how hard it should work. It is confused, it is disoriented.

    I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with Covid-19 is
    in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing bags, not to
    the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.

    You are on the right track, but you aren't connecting the dots sufficiently. A vaccine is not at all like a boxing bag. I hope I've made that clear.

    No, you didn't. You are under the impression that humans managed to
    create some Supermen that fights viruses. No, humans didn't manage to
    create in few months something that nature spent 4 billion years to
    create. Forget it.
    Scientists created only some vague fake thing, nothing more, the most
    rough thing you can imagine. What do you think is inside this needle?
    Some generic crap, that happens to help somehow, nobody knows *exactly*
    how. Because nobody knows *exactly* what is happening inside. Some guy,
    100 years ago, used some dead virus, injected it, and it happened that
    it works, somehow. And that's about it, no Supermen from movies, or from
    Star Trek series.
    A car is far more sophisticated than vaccine. Because you can see it,
    you can understand the forces, you know what it needs to do, you design
    it in tune with that knowledge. The design of vaccination is nothing
    like that. Nobody knows what exactly it is doing, will it be good for
    pregnant women, will it affect those below the age of 16, everybody is extremely cautious, because nobody knows what is, actually, going on?

    And please take the following to heart. Without prior exposure to the coronavirus,
    you are unlikely to have any antibodies that protect you from it, and your immune
    system has no memory that a prior exposure gives of what kinds of antibodies to crank out.

    And so, it has to figure out by trial and error when the virus invades. And while
    it is figuring it out, the virus multiplies fast enough to be in a good position
    to overwhelm your system before enough antibodies can be produced.

    Hm, strangely, young people have everything that is necessary, for
    them this is only a mild thing.

    They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and survived,
    has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated.

    But please, note that he also could suffer terrible physical damage even if he survived. Fat lot of good any immunity will do him if he is an invalid for the rest of his life.

    Of course. He can die, if he isn't fit. The fittest survive, anybody
    of you ever gone to school, learning the basics of biology?
    And this is the problem with vaccination. Our immune system fights
    diseases guided by a vaccine. This makes him less fit. Because we all
    will be less fit, we all will die if we continue to use vaccination.
    This Covid-19 thing is just the first glimpse of the shape of things to
    come. It'll be worse and worse, this is just the first glimpse.

    I mean, there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove the reason.

    Yes, "They say" just doesn't cut it.


    Scientists behave like they are idiots, if it isn't proven, it doesn't happen.

    Do NOT confuse Harshman, the only one here with a degree in biology [although I suspect Pandora has one and is a far better scientist than Harshman] with
    a scientist who hasn't forgotten how to teach adults.

    Harshman has been spoiled rotten by the other people I've named up there,
    and others like them, and also fans who know even less than they do,
    into thinking that a few well chosen words by him -- and the ones up there WERE
    well chosen -- should work magic in the minds of the people who read them.
    If they don't, he figures it's their fault.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oxyaena@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Tue Sep 7 02:04:08 2021
    On 9/6/2021 8:18 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Sunday, September 5, 2021 at 8:51:31 AM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/2/2021 11:30 AM, erik simpson wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 9:21:02 PM UTC-7, John Harshman wrote:

    I've snipped a bunch of things that I will have to reprimand Mario about,

    So get on with it then.

    but first, I need to defend my reputation, because no one -- not even Mario --
    will do it for me, whereas there are several who are still willing to defend the
    reputation of Oxyaena/Thrinaxodon.

    Maybe cause your reputation isn't worth shit.


    To anyone who may be reading this, if indeed there is anyone: I
    apologize for poking him. I will stop now.

    No apology necessary. But this latest rant he's on confirms to me that he's just a
    troll. I still have the probably unjustifiable belief that you can't be that stupid and still
    be alive.

    I don't know,

    Thrinaxodon/Oxyaena knows, but finds it much more rewarding to be loved
    by people named below for pretending otherwise:

    I do indeed know that you are a giant jackoff.


    one look at Peter proves that one can *indeed* be that
    stupid and somehow end up a tenured professor.

    Of course, Oxyaena/Thrinaxodon knows better than to tell anyone
    what, if anything, "that stupid" refers to: it would ruin the whole effect.

    You're too dense to get what I refer to. It's blindingly obvious to
    anyone that's not named "Peter Nyikos".


    One look at the posting history of Thrinaxodon, having tried for six years to reinvent herself as Oxyaena,
    shows how a dog returns to his/her vomit at last.

    You've been saying things to the exact same effect for the last six
    years now. One wonders how many transformations and reverse
    transformations I have undergone since then, at least according to you.


    And Thrinaxodon/Oxyaena can do it as long as 'e wants,

    You do realize my pronouns are "she/her" right? You were perfectly fine referring to me by those pronouns until this post, in which you stopped
    doing so presumably out of spite. Typical.

    because Harshman, Simpson, Hemidactylus,
    Mark Issaak, jillery, and others who show up too infrequently on sci.bio.paleontology to be worth
    mentioning, can be counted on to play "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" about that vomit.

    You and Mario are the ones puking all over the electronic floorboard.


    The most you will ever see is the way Harshman played "good cop" to "bad cop" Oxyaena,
    when the latter puked all over me for not knowing about a Mesozoic gliding mammal,
    saying that one shouldn't be so nasty right off the bat to "even someone like Peter."

    Harshman exited the thread when Oxyaena proved to be too hatefully incorrigible,
    and so he missed how I later discovered the thread and admitted to my carelessness
    in not having specified "Cenozoic gliding mammal".

    Damage control mode activated.


    To my mind it was clear from the way bat ancestry was the theme, and no gliding mammals
    have been found among fossils within the whole of Eutheria, let alone the crown group Placentalia,
    before modern bats are found in the fossil record.

    Here we see Peter continues to operate in "damage control mode."


    Eutheria split off from Metatheria (marsupials and kin) well back in the Cretaceous, so "Cenozoic"
    was understating the case, but there was no need for overkill.

    Peter continues to operate in "damage control mode."



    I wonder whether this incident was what Oxyaena had in mind when writing "that stupid." The way
    'e kept referring to me as "Professor Asshat" on that thread, it is certainly possible.

    I was calling you that out of spite. It's also an accurate title, but I digress.



    Peter Nyikos
    Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
    University of South Carolina
    http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Tue Sep 7 06:11:13 2021
    On 9/6/21 7:51 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 7.9.2021. 3:32, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic
    wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different >>>>>>>> justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
    anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio? >>>>>>>
    No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
    just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This >>>>>>> is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense
    mechanism.

    Wrong, Mario. It is to give your defense mechanism more of
    a sporting chance. Please read far enough to see what I mean by this.

            Well, why we don't swallow it, or inhale? Because in that case,
    our body would process it, wouldn't it? And spit it out. Our body
    controls our inhalation and what we swallow.

    But you've also said that you disapprove of oral vaccines too. Try to
    keep your story straight.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
    antigens
    into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't
    weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
    those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune
    system or
    encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

    Harshman was being very sensible here, Mario, but you seem to have
    lost sight of his main point.

    And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent. Vaccination
    introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just like" the real
    things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to train and be strong.

    WRONG! It is like a boxer, working out with a sparring partner when
    training to fight someone whose tactics the sparring partner can
    train him to counteract.

            WRONG! I mean, those things are LEGO cubes, aren't they? You say that we created something that is alive, and with its own mind, and everything? No, we didn't. I very much doubt. And that we "programmed"
    it to work like the "real thing". So, why don't you create a sparring
    partner for a boxer to train, instead using a live humans?

    All analogies break down. This one breaks down sooner than many. But you
    did completely miss its point. It's not the fact that the analogical
    sparring partner is alive with his own mind that counts. It's that he
    teaches you how to fight a deadly opponent. And "teaches" is another
    poor analogy. You (your immune system) just learns from the example.
    ("Learns" is also a metaphor, of course.)

    And your immune system gets nothing from a live virus that it doesn't
    get from the spike protein alone.

    Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't enough. It *has to be* a
    live opponent.

    You have completely missed the point.

    Vaccination is exactly like admitting a sparring partner into your gym
    who is superb at imitating the professional whom it would be terribly
    risky
    to fight without plenty of training. Only, except in rare cases, your
    vaccine "sparring partner"
      knows better than to deal blows that could hurt you badly.

            Hm, in somebody's dreams.

    Is that what you are really afraid of, that an anti-Covid-2 vaccine is
    more likely
    to hurt you, and to hurt you worse, than an invasion of SARS-CoV-2
    viruses
    that your immune system hasn't got the any antibodies for?

            Not at all (it is you who missed the point). I explained it in
    detail, I am claiming that our immune system will become worse, less
    agile and it will be disoriented, if vaccination "helps" him to work.
    Just like I mentioned cars that "help" us to walk.

    That's a strong claim. But what backs it up? "Agile" and "disoriented"
    are more bad metaphors. How does responding to an antigen weaken the
    immune system?

    This is contrary to all experience. Yes, you could have adverse
    effects; one
    secretary who got the Moderna vaccine said she felt as though her arm
    would
    fall off after the first dose. But it only lasted for a few days, and
    the second dose
    wasn't nearly as bad.

    It's like hiring a sparring partner who needs some experience to
    figure out
    how to spar with you without you hurting yourself. For instance, you
    might get a bloody nose
    by moving your head the wrong way when the two of you go into a clinch.
    But he'll show you the right way to clinch if you are patient.

            No, it is nothing like that. It is like using robots to be sparring partners. They will never be good enough. And, by saying this,
    I was more than generous in comparing robots to this thing.

    You are lost in analogies. Instead you should consider the actual system.

    And it is nothing like the permanent damage to your lungs or liver you
    could get from Covid-19. You can read about some of the grisly
    possibilities here,
    as well as the jarring statistic you can read already from the url (95
    means 95%):

    https://theconversation.com/at-my-hospital-over-95-of-covid-19-patients-share-one-thing-in-common-theyre-unvaccinated-166708#_=_


            I don't know people, do you read at all, about Covid-19 illness? It is NOT caused by the virus. It is that, weak organisms are destroyed by our immune system that lost its calibration.
            See, you have short people, you have tall people. But, you don't have people 2 miles high, nor you have people 2 millimeters short. There are some proportions, and some buffer zone for variations, that is embedded in us. All humans are between 0.5 meters and 3 meters.
            And the same goes for everything. This is how things work, things don't behave like they are mad. But, our immune system blew up
    those proportions, and inflict our bodies too hard. If organism is too
    weak, it will not withstand that pressure. And exactly this is what is happening, weak organisms die because our immune system is working too
    hard. Virus isn't the problem at all, it is the not-adjusted work of our immune system that is the problem. Our immune system isn't sure,
    anymore, how hard it should work. It is confused, it is disoriented.

    Please provide support for this odd contention from the peer-reviewed scientific literature, which doesn't include some comment you read on
    some random web site.

    I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with Covid-19 is
    in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing bags, not to
    the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.

    You are on the right track, but you aren't connecting the dots
    sufficiently.
    A vaccine is not at all like a boxing bag. I hope I've made that clear.

            No, you didn't. You are under the impression that humans managed to create some Supermen that fights viruses. No, humans didn't
    manage to create in few months something that nature spent 4 billion
    years to create. Forget it.
            Scientists created only some vague fake thing, nothing more, the most rough thing you can imagine. What do you think is inside this needle? Some generic crap, that happens to help somehow, nobody knows *exactly* how. Because nobody knows *exactly* what is happening inside.
    Some guy, 100 years ago, used some dead virus, injected it, and it
    happened that it works, somehow. And that's about it, no Supermen from movies, or from Star Trek series.

    This isn't true. We know exactly how vaccines work. And covid vaccines
    contain either spike proteins or mRNAs that are translated to produce
    spike proteins.

            A car is far more sophisticated than vaccine. Because you can see it, you can understand the forces, you know what it needs to do, you design it in tune with that knowledge. The design of vaccination is
    nothing like that. Nobody knows what exactly it is doing, will it be
    good for pregnant women, will it affect those below the age of 16,
    everybody is extremely cautious, because nobody knows what is, actually, going on?

    And please take the following to heart. Without prior exposure to the
    coronavirus,
    you are unlikely to have any antibodies that protect you from it, and
    your immune
    system has no memory that a prior exposure gives of what kinds of
    antibodies
    to crank out.

    And so, it has to figure out by trial and error when the virus
    invades. And while
    it is figuring it out, the virus multiplies fast enough to be in a
    good position
    to overwhelm your system before enough antibodies can be produced.

            Hm, strangely, young people have everything that is necessary,
    for them this is only a mild thing.

    Not any more.

    They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and survived,
    has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated.

    But please, note that he also could suffer terrible physical damage
    even if
    he survived. Fat lot of good any immunity will do him if he is an
    invalid for the rest of his life.

            Of course. He can die, if he isn't fit. The fittest survive, anybody of you ever gone to school, learning the basics of biology?
            And this is the problem with vaccination. Our immune system fights diseases guided by a vaccine. This makes him less fit. Because we
    all will be less fit, we all will die if we continue to use vaccination.
    This Covid-19 thing is just the first glimpse of the shape of things to
    come. It'll be worse and worse, this is just the first glimpse.

    You haven't explained how vaccines make you less fit.

    I mean, there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove the reason.

    Yes, "They say" just doesn't cut it.

    Peter is asking you to support your claim. You ignored him. Why?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Tue Sep 7 05:59:00 2021
    On 9/6/21 6:32 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different >>>>>>> justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
    anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio? >>>>>>
    No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
    just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This >>>>>> is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense mechanism.

    Wrong, Mario. It is to give your defense mechanism more of
    a sporting chance. Please read far enough to see what I mean by this.


    <snip for focus>


    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce antigens >>> into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't
    weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
    those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune system or >>> encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

    Harshman was being very sensible here, Mario, but you seem to have
    lost sight of his main point.

    <snip for focus>


    And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent. Vaccination
    introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just like" the real
    things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to train and be strong.

    WRONG! It is like a boxer, working out with a sparring partner when
    training to fight someone whose tactics the sparring partner can
    train him to counteract.

    Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't enough. It *has to be* a
    live opponent.

    You have completely missed the point.

    Vaccination is exactly like admitting a sparring partner into your gym
    who is superb at imitating the professional whom it would be terribly risky to fight without plenty of training. Only, except in rare cases, your vaccine "sparring partner"
    knows better than to deal blows that could hurt you badly.

    Is that what you are really afraid of, that an anti-Covid-2 vaccine is more likely
    to hurt you, and to hurt you worse, than an invasion of SARS-CoV-2 viruses that your immune system hasn't got the any antibodies for?

    This is contrary to all experience. Yes, you could have adverse effects; one secretary who got the Moderna vaccine said she felt as though her arm would fall off after the first dose. But it only lasted for a few days, and the second dose
    wasn't nearly as bad.

    It's like hiring a sparring partner who needs some experience to figure out how to spar with you without you hurting yourself. For instance, you might get a bloody nose
    by moving your head the wrong way when the two of you go into a clinch.
    But he'll show you the right way to clinch if you are patient.

    And it is nothing like the permanent damage to your lungs or liver you
    could get from Covid-19. You can read about some of the grisly possibilities here,
    as well as the jarring statistic you can read already from the url (95 means 95%):

    https://theconversation.com/at-my-hospital-over-95-of-covid-19-patients-share-one-thing-in-common-theyre-unvaccinated-166708#_=_


    I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with Covid-19 is
    in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing bags, not to
    the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.

    You are on the right track, but you aren't connecting the dots sufficiently. A vaccine is not at all like a boxing bag. I hope I've made that clear.

    And please take the following to heart. Without prior exposure to the coronavirus,
    you are unlikely to have any antibodies that protect you from it, and your immune
    system has no memory that a prior exposure gives of what kinds of antibodies to crank out.

    And so, it has to figure out by trial and error when the virus invades. And while
    it is figuring it out, the virus multiplies fast enough to be in a good position
    to overwhelm your system before enough antibodies can be produced.


    They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and survived,
    has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated.

    But please, note that he also could suffer terrible physical damage even if he survived. Fat lot of good any immunity will do him if he is an invalid for the rest of his life.


    I mean, there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove the reason.

    Yes, "They say" just doesn't cut it.


    Scientists behave like they are idiots, if it isn't proven, it doesn't happen.

    Do NOT confuse Harshman, the only one here with a degree in biology [although I suspect Pandora has one and is a far better scientist than Harshman] with
    a scientist who hasn't forgotten how to teach adults.

    Harshman has been spoiled rotten by the other people I've named up there,
    and others like them, and also fans who know even less than they do,
    into thinking that a few well chosen words by him -- and the ones up there WERE
    well chosen -- should work magic in the minds of the people who read them.
    If they don't, he figures it's their fault.

    Thanks?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Tue Sep 7 06:12:05 2021
    On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 10:51:58 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 7.9.2021. 3:32, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different >>>>>>> justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental
    anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for polio? >>>>>>
    No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
    just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This >>>>>> is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense mechanism.

    Wrong, Mario. It is to give your defense mechanism more of
    a sporting chance. Please read far enough to see what I mean by this.

    Well, why we don't swallow it, or inhale?

    Because there is no Covid-19 vaccine that we can swallow or inhale.


    Because in that case, our
    body would process it, wouldn't it?

    It processes the oral polio vaccine. Our mouths are not sufficiently finely tuned to recognize dangerous substances. Many people die yearly because they eat mushrooms that are deadly poison, like *Amanita phaillodes* and *Amanita virosa*.

    And spit it out. Our body controls
    our inhalation and what we swallow.

    By "defense mechanism," were you completely ignoring your immune system?
    I thought that this WAS what you meant, and I meant "giving your immune system a sporting chance".


    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce antigens >>> into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't
    weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way
    those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune system or >>> encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

    Harshman was being very sensible here, Mario, but you seem to have
    lost sight of his main point.

    And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent. Vaccination
    introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just like" the real
    things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to train and be strong.

    WRONG! It is like a boxer, working out with a sparring partner when training to fight someone whose tactics the sparring partner can
    train him to counteract.

    WRONG! I mean, those things are LEGO cubes, aren't they?

    RNA is not a bunch of Lego cubes. Please try to make sense. And please don't parrot
    words like "WRONG!" unless you are prepared to back up what follows
    in whatever depth is necessary, like I am.

    Harshman and Oxyaena and Simpson are rotten role models, but you seem
    to be emulating them here. What follows is more of the same:

    You say that we created something that is alive, and with its own mind, and everything?

    PLEASE try to understand vaccine basics. The mRNA in the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines is a polynucleotide that has been isolated from SARS-CoV-2 and verified not to contain recognition sequences that are irrelevant to the spike protein being translated from it by the ribosomes in the cells.

    Do you not understand the enormous number of things that are neither Legos
    nor living things with their own minds? How much do you know about biochemistry? It is intermediate but far removed from both extremes.


    No, we didn't. I very much doubt.

    I'm glad you very much doubt a figment of your imagination, which nobody in sci.bio.paleontology
    ever hinted at until you came along and did it just now.


    And that we "programmed"
    it to work like the "real thing".

    It IS the real thing that is translated into spike protein from those Pfizer and Moderna vaccines.
    If they had tried to program it to be anything else, it would have been completely useless against Covid-19.


    So, why don't you create a sparring
    partner for a boxer to train, instead using a live humans?

    This nonsense makes me wonder whether Erik Simpson was right to call you a troll.
    He is a troll a great deal of the time himself, but as the old half-truth says, "It takes one to know one."


    Remainder deleted, to be replied to later.


    Peter Nyikos
    Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
    University of South Carolina
    http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

    PS I see Thrinaxodon/Oxyaena is disappointed by the post to which you are replying,
    because I didn't reprimand you the way 'e was hoping I would. I suppose 'e will think
    that I still am not reprimanding you sufficiently. However, if you continue to deteriorate
    at the rate you are, perhaps his/her insatiable appetite for reprimands between people 'e hates with an unreasoning hatred will be temporarily appeased.

    PPS After I composed the PS, but before I sent this post off, Harshman also expressed a (less high) degree
    of disappointment. It will be interesting to see his reaction, if any, to THIS post.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Tue Sep 7 06:33:59 2021
    On 9/7/21 6:12 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    Harshman and Oxyaena and Simpson are rotten role models, but you seem
    to be emulating them here. What follows is more of the same:

    Was that really necessary?

    Or this?:

    He is a troll a great deal of the time himself, but as the old half-truth says,
    "It takes one to know one."

    Your inability to avoid gratuitous insults directed at third parties is
    not a virtue. Why not try to resist the impulse? It adds nothing to your
    posts.

    It will be interesting to see his reaction, if any, to THIS post.

    Well, at least that served some kind of purpose and wasn't an insult. My reaction is that your comments on vaccines were on topic and largely
    correct. Mario will not be budged. It would help (well, no, nothing
    would actually help) to illuminate more of his inconsistencies. For
    example, he opposed injected vaccines and asked why they aren't
    swallowed, but in fact he opposes oral vaccines too, so that entire
    argument was a distraction, probably made up on the spur of the moment,
    and without regard to coherence. At such times he does assume a trollish aspect.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Tue Sep 7 07:58:53 2021
    On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 9:34:07 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/7/21 6:12 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    Harshman and Oxyaena and Simpson are rotten role models, but you seem
    to be emulating them here. What follows is more of the same:


    <snip of self-and-Simpson-and-Oxyaena-serving comments by yourself>


    It will be interesting to see his reaction, if any, to THIS post.

    Well, at least that served some kind of purpose and wasn't an insult. My reaction is that your comments on vaccines were on topic and largely
    correct.

    I think they were more correct in some places than yours. What makes you think that the
    following is true?

    "And your immune system gets nothing from a live virus that it doesn't
    get from the spike protein alone."

    This was from your parallel reply to Mario. I do not understand what you mean by
    "gets nothing." Do you imagine that whole of the damage wrought by
    Covid-19 is due to the spike protein alone? [1] or that the only antibodies the body
    produces against the live virus are targeted at the spike protein and no other part of the virus?

    [1] That would be grist for the mill of the anti-vaxxers who focus the greatest of their ire
    on mRNA vaccines. Of course, they would be under the spell of the most toxic piece of disinformation of all, that the mRNA would multiply and spread over all of your
    cells, but they will gladly take any crumb of support that comes their way, even from
    anti-anti-vaxxers like you and me.


    Mario will not be budged. It would help (well, no, nothing would actually help)
    to illuminate more of his inconsistencies.

    I intend to do so in any case, and also to show how mistaken he is about
    some pretty important things that you didn't try to show him being mistaken about.
    Let me be the judge of whether it helps or not.


    For example, he opposed injected vaccines and asked why they aren't swallowed, but in fact he opposes oral vaccines too, so that entire
    argument was a distraction, probably made up on the spur of the moment,
    and without regard to coherence. At such times he does assume a trollish aspect.

    Did you bother to read what I wrote about the very thing you are talking about here?
    It was specifically designed to see whether he keeps sliding down the slippery slope
    or whether he sobers up and tries to get back on track. General comments like yours above do not tend to impose such choices on the people they are designed to nudge in the right direction.

    Mario, of course, might choose the wrong direction, but he is not such a known quantity to me as you and two others that I named are -- the two others whose names I have put into a hyphenated phrase at the top.
    I am still trying to get the hang of Mario's *modus operandi*, hence all the trouble to which I am going for him.


    Peter Nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Tue Sep 7 08:42:31 2021
    I am short on time, so in this second reply I can only spare the time for three isolated
    issues where you seem to imagine that you know a lot more than I do.

    On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 10:51:58 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 7.9.2021. 3:32, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:


    And it is nothing like the permanent damage to your lungs or liver you could get from Covid-19. You can read about some of the grisly possibilities here,
    as well as the jarring statistic you can read already from the url (95 means 95%):

    https://theconversation.com/at-my-hospital-over-95-of-covid-19-patients-share-one-thing-in-common-theyre-unvaccinated-166708#_=_

    I don't know people, do you read at all, about Covid-19 illness?

    Do you? it seems that you have totally ignored the very title of the long and hard-hitting article that I have linked for you. Obviously, you never read it.


    It is NOT caused by the virus.

    Is your authority for this the usual "They say"? What makes you think that
    you haven't been duped by anti-vaxxer propaganda?

    Is it that, as you were growing up, you realized that what the Communist government
    issued was full of lies, and uncritically believed everything that was critical of the government
    and widely asserted in the places you happen to have heard or read?
    And now you've carried this attitude over to all governments?


    It is that, weak organisms are destroyed by our
    immune system that lost its calibration.

    Be that as it may, I hope you realize that you are putting yourself at risk by not getting vaccinated.
    Don't imagine that you would be doing future generations a disservice by getting vaccinated.
    You said yourself that you are beyond the age of sexual indulgence.


    <snip for focus>


    No, you didn't. You are under the impression that humans managed to
    create some Supermen that fights viruses.

    This is a complete falsehood. I never said anything of the sort.


    <snip for focus>


    They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and survived,
    has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated.

    But please, note that he also could suffer terrible physical damage even if he survived. Fat lot of good any immunity will do him if he is an invalid for the rest of his life.

    Of course. He can die, if he isn't fit. The fittest survive, anybody
    of you ever gone to school, learning the basics of biology?

    I have, but it looks like you haven't: "survival of the fittest" is not a biological expression.
    It was coined by the non-biologist Herbert Spencer, who invented "social darwinism",
    one of whose worst expressions was the Nazi pseudoscience of a "Master Race."

    [By the way, was this pseudoscience the inspiration for "Supermen that fights viruses"?]


    The only way biologists use the term "the fittest survive" is by way of the barren tautology:
    the fittest are, BY DEFINITION, the ones that survive to pass their genes on to the population.

    It says NOTHING about what kinds of anatomical, or whatever, traits are more fit than others.
    The Nazis thought they knew, but biologists worthy of the name do not think that way.
    Except in the most obvious cases, they know better than to try and judge that some trait
    is more fit than another. A great deal depends on the environment, which is too unpredictable.
    In the last ice age there were gray kangaroos ten feet tall, because the environment favored
    large size; today the same species only has six foot tall kangaroos, because that is what
    the environment favors.


    Peter Nyikos
    Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
    Univ. of South Carolina in Columbia
    http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Tue Sep 7 17:50:23 2021
    On 7.9.2021. 15:11, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/6/21 7:51 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 7.9.2021. 3:32, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario
    Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely different >>>>>>>>> justification from your previous one. Do you object to dental >>>>>>>>> anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one for >>>>>>>>> polio?

    No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
    just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. This >>>>>>>> is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense
    mechanism.

    Wrong, Mario. It is to give your defense mechanism more of
    a sporting chance. Please read far enough to see what I mean by this.

             Well, why we don't swallow it, or inhale? Because in that >> case, our body would process it, wouldn't it? And spit it out. Our
    body controls our inhalation and what we swallow.

    But you've also said that you disapprove of oral vaccines too. Try to
    keep your story straight.

    But I also said that these are two separate topics. I said that,
    *whatever you do*, don't go around your defense mechanism. But, *apart
    from that*, don't drive in your car every day if you need to be good runner.
    Those two are two separate topics, and there is no reason to omit the
    second topic in this thread just to make my story more straight, because
    it is closely related.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
    antigens
    into your blood just like those present in live pathogens. They don't >>>>> weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly the same way >>>>> those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your immune
    system or
    encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

    Harshman was being very sensible here, Mario, but you seem to have
    lost sight of his main point.

    And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent. Vaccination
    introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just like" the real
    things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to train and be strong. >>>
    WRONG! It is like a boxer, working out with a sparring partner when
    training to fight someone whose tactics the sparring partner can
    train him to counteract.

             WRONG! I mean, those things are LEGO cubes, aren't they? You
    say that we created something that is alive, and with its own mind,
    and everything? No, we didn't. I very much doubt. And that we
    "programmed" it to work like the "real thing". So, why don't you
    create a sparring partner for a boxer to train, instead using a live
    humans?

    All analogies break down. This one breaks down sooner than many. But you
    did completely miss its point. It's not the fact that the analogical
    sparring partner is alive with his own mind that counts. It's that he
    teaches you how to fight a deadly opponent. And "teaches" is another
    poor analogy. You (your immune system) just learns from the example. ("Learns" is also a metaphor, of course.)

    And your immune system gets nothing from a live virus that it doesn't
    get from the spike protein alone.

    Ok, I will not go into it why this isn't true, I'll try to explain it
    the other, simpler, way.
    Imagine if our system needs to rise body temperature to fight illness.
    Then you introduce some pill that controls the body temperature, and it
    is a perfect pill, does exactly what you want it to do.
    Well, illness has its own tempo it has its curve of activity, and our
    system is used to it, it knows it very well, and it adjusts to it. But
    then you introduce this pill, which messes up this whole process.
    Instead of our system gets better used with every new illness, now our
    system is more and more confused with every new illness. Why? Because it doesn't count on the effect of the pill, it doesn't control the amount
    of pills that you intake into system, it isn't in control, now your
    doctor wants to be in control of your body. Well, if your doctor wants
    to be in control, then let him be the system. It cannot be that two
    captains are on one ship.
    The other thing is that your doctor doesn't know a sh.t about the
    whole process (he is only learning, but probably he will not know enough
    even after few thousand years of learning), while your system is adapted
    to it, and knows what he needs to know. Yet, your doctor really wants to
    be in control of the whole thing. Well...

    Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't enough. It *has to be* a
    live opponent.

    You have completely missed the point.

    Vaccination is exactly like admitting a sparring partner into your gym
    who is superb at imitating the professional whom it would be terribly
    risky
    to fight without plenty of training. Only, except in rare cases, your
    vaccine "sparring partner"
      knows better than to deal blows that could hurt you badly.

             Hm, in somebody's dreams.

    Is that what you are really afraid of, that an anti-Covid-2 vaccine
    is more likely
    to hurt you, and to hurt you worse, than an invasion of SARS-CoV-2
    viruses
    that your immune system hasn't got the any antibodies for?

             Not at all (it is you who missed the point). I explained it >> in detail, I am claiming that our immune system will become worse,
    less agile and it will be disoriented, if vaccination "helps" him to
    work. Just like I mentioned cars that "help" us to walk.

    That's a strong claim. But what backs it up? "Agile" and "disoriented"
    are more bad metaphors. How does responding to an antigen weaken the
    immune system?

    When virus comes, the system needs to respond to virus, not to something else. You say that it responds to antigen *like* it would
    respond to virus. Ok, its perfectly alright. The only thing is that now
    the system responds to virus *like* it would respond to antigen. But,
    there is no antigen yet. So, what does the system do? He goes mad.

    This is contrary to all experience. Yes, you could have adverse
    effects; one
    secretary who got the Moderna vaccine said she felt as though her arm
    would
    fall off after the first dose. But it only lasted for a few days, and
    the second dose
    wasn't nearly as bad.

    It's like hiring a sparring partner who needs some experience to
    figure out
    how to spar with you without you hurting yourself. For instance, you
    might get a bloody nose
    by moving your head the wrong way when the two of you go into a clinch.
    But he'll show you the right way to clinch if you are patient.

             No, it is nothing like that. It is like using robots to be >> sparring partners. They will never be good enough. And, by saying
    this, I was more than generous in comparing robots to this thing.

    You are lost in analogies. Instead you should consider the actual system.

    And it is nothing like the permanent damage to your lungs or liver you
    could get from Covid-19. You can read about some of the grisly
    possibilities here,
    as well as the jarring statistic you can read already from the url
    (95 means 95%):

    https://theconversation.com/at-my-hospital-over-95-of-covid-19-patients-share-one-thing-in-common-theyre-unvaccinated-166708#_=_


             I don't know people, do you read at all, about Covid-19
    illness? It is NOT caused by the virus. It is that, weak organisms are
    destroyed by our immune system that lost its calibration.
             See, you have short people, you have tall people. But, you >> don't have people 2 miles high, nor you have people 2 millimeters
    short. There are some proportions, and some buffer zone for
    variations, that is embedded in us. All humans are between 0.5 meters
    and 3 meters.
             And the same goes for everything. This is how things work, >> things don't behave like they are mad. But, our immune system blew up
    those proportions, and inflict our bodies too hard. If organism is too
    weak, it will not withstand that pressure. And exactly this is what is
    happening, weak organisms die because our immune system is working too
    hard. Virus isn't the problem at all, it is the not-adjusted work of
    our immune system that is the problem. Our immune system isn't sure,
    anymore, how hard it should work. It is confused, it is disoriented.

    Please provide support for this odd contention from the peer-reviewed scientific literature, which doesn't include some comment you read on
    some random web site.

    Why? I know my thing, I am writing to help other people. If you don't
    want to be helped, just like people in Afghanistan, that's alright with me.
    I don't expect science to give such papers. Science wants to be in
    control, there will never be a science paper which says that scientific
    way isn't the way. Science does thing in scientific ways.
    In Croatia, one prominent scientist (which is attacked by *less*
    prominent scientists) said publicly that the ones who vaccinated have 7
    times less ability to fight virus than the ones who went through illness without vaccination. It is he who is the expert, it is he who says that research showed this. I can imagine that science wouldn't give enough
    weight to this research, and that it would have hard time to place it in
    the context that I am placing it.

    I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with Covid-19 is >>>> in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing bags, not to
    the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.

    You are on the right track, but you aren't connecting the dots
    sufficiently.
    A vaccine is not at all like a boxing bag. I hope I've made that clear.

             No, you didn't. You are under the impression that humans
    managed to create some Supermen that fights viruses. No, humans didn't
    manage to create in few months something that nature spent 4 billion
    years to create. Forget it.
             Scientists created only some vague fake thing, nothing more,
    the most rough thing you can imagine. What do you think is inside this
    needle? Some generic crap, that happens to help somehow, nobody knows
    *exactly* how. Because nobody knows *exactly* what is happening
    inside. Some guy, 100 years ago, used some dead virus, injected it,
    and it happened that it works, somehow. And that's about it, no
    Supermen from movies, or from Star Trek series.

    This isn't true. We know exactly how vaccines work. And covid vaccines contain either spike proteins or mRNAs that are translated to produce
    spike proteins.

    Just like I explained it above with a temperature pill. You may know
    how turning wheel in a car performs, exactly, but yet, you can never
    know for how much you have to turn your wheel in a given turn.
    Those things aren't so simple, as simple are the minds of scientists,
    although scientists would really like things to be that simple that they
    can comprehend it. But they aren't. Simple as that. And they never will
    be. It is really large conceit to be convinced that you know everything.
    How come somebody comes to such an idea, is beyond me?
    And here I am, and I say that people don't know everything, and all
    those people are after me, claiming that they know everything. It's a
    bit funny, you know.
    And then you come to me, and ask me, if people don't know something,
    well tell me what we don't know. Lol, well, I know even less, but one
    thing I do know, I know that I don't know everything, and whoever claims
    that he knows everything, it is he who is nuts, not me.

             A car is far more sophisticated than vaccine. Because you can
    see it, you can understand the forces, you know what it needs to do,
    you design it in tune with that knowledge. The design of vaccination
    is nothing like that. Nobody knows what exactly it is doing, will it
    be good for pregnant women, will it affect those below the age of 16,
    everybody is extremely cautious, because nobody knows what is,
    actually, going on?

    And please take the following to heart. Without prior exposure to the
    coronavirus,
    you are unlikely to have any antibodies that protect you from it, and
    your immune
    system has no memory that a prior exposure gives of what kinds of
    antibodies
    to crank out.

    And so, it has to figure out by trial and error when the virus
    invades. And while
    it is figuring it out, the virus multiplies fast enough to be in a
    good position
    to overwhelm your system before enough antibodies can be produced.

             Hm, strangely, young people have everything that is
    necessary, for them this is only a mild thing.

    Not any more.

    Yes, virus evolved, it was mild, now it is stronger. Scientists are
    just as stupid today as they were two years ago. Why? Because two years
    ago they knew everything, so there's nothing else new to learn, lol.

    They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and survived,
    has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated.

    But please, note that he also could suffer terrible physical damage
    even if
    he survived. Fat lot of good any immunity will do him if he is an
    invalid for the rest of his life.

             Of course. He can die, if he isn't fit. The fittest survive,
    anybody of you ever gone to school, learning the basics of biology?
             And this is the problem with vaccination. Our immune system >> fights diseases guided by a vaccine. This makes him less fit. Because
    we all will be less fit, we all will die if we continue to use
    vaccination. This Covid-19 thing is just the first glimpse of the
    shape of things to come. It'll be worse and worse, this is just the
    first glimpse.

    You haven't explained how vaccines make you less fit.

    Oh, I told you that it makes me less fit. This is good enough for me.
    How? Well, if you don't need to know, don't make an effort to figure it
    out. Aren't you convinced that everything is just fine? Well, then it
    doesn't matter "how".

    I mean, there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove the reason.

    Yes, "They say" just doesn't cut it.

    Peter is asking you to support your claim. You ignored him. Why?

    I didn't understand this, and I am still not understanding this. It is
    a linguistical/cultural problem, I don't get it, the form of it. I don't
    get what he wants.
    I mean, for the end, lets have a reality check. People don't know
    everything (they are not gods). They will never know everything.
    Regarding defense system and vaccination, they are just learning. You
    are learning by the way of experimentation. Well, defense system is the
    only thing that keeps us alive. This isn't a thing with which you will
    do experimentation. Do you realize what will happen if this
    experimentation goes wrong? Covid-19 crisis is showing that this
    experiment is gone wrong, but nobody even sees that, and let alone is
    willing to admit that.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Tue Sep 7 09:51:04 2021
    On 9/7/21 7:58 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 9:34:07 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/7/21 6:12 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    Harshman and Oxyaena and Simpson are rotten role models, but you seem
    to be emulating them here. What follows is more of the same:


    <snip of self-and-Simpson-and-Oxyaena-serving comments by yourself>


    It will be interesting to see his reaction, if any, to THIS post.

    Well, at least that served some kind of purpose and wasn't an insult. My
    reaction is that your comments on vaccines were on topic and largely
    correct.

    I think they were more correct in some places than yours. What makes you think that the
    following is true?

    "And your immune system gets nothing from a live virus that it doesn't
    get from the spike protein alone."

    What makes you think it isn't true? The spike protein is the antigen
    that the immune system reacts to. That's why vaccines are effective.

    This was from your parallel reply to Mario. I do not understand what you mean by
    "gets nothing." Do you imagine that whole of the damage wrought by
    Covid-19 is due to the spike protein alone? [1] or that the only antibodies the body
    produces against the live virus are targeted at the spike protein and no other
    part of the virus?

    Your first question is irrelevant, as damage is not the topic. For the
    second question, I think that's likely true. It's what is exposed on the surface. Are there other antigens also targeted? What do you know about
    that?

    [1] That would be grist for the mill of the anti-vaxxers who focus the greatest of their ire
    on mRNA vaccines. Of course, they would be under the spell of the most toxic piece of disinformation of all, that the mRNA would multiply and spread over all of your
    cells, but they will gladly take any crumb of support that comes their way, even from
    anti-anti-vaxxers like you and me.

    This would seem to be a footnote without a referent. What would be
    grist? What support for anti-vaxxers? Is it something I said?

    Mario will not be budged. It would help (well, no, nothing would actually help)
    to illuminate more of his inconsistencies.

    I intend to do so in any case, and also to show how mistaken he is about
    some pretty important things that you didn't try to show him being mistaken about.
    Let me be the judge of whether it helps or not.

    Sure. Your experience will be instructive. I will just take the
    opportunity to predict that nothing you do will change his view.

    For example, he opposed injected vaccines and asked why they aren't
    swallowed, but in fact he opposes oral vaccines too, so that entire
    argument was a distraction, probably made up on the spur of the moment,
    and without regard to coherence. At such times he does assume a trollish
    aspect.

    Did you bother to read what I wrote about the very thing you are talking about here?

    Yes.

    It was specifically designed to see whether he keeps sliding down the slippery slope
    or whether he sobers up and tries to get back on track. General comments like yours above do not tend to impose such choices on the people they are designed
    to nudge in the right direction.

    There is no nudging, as it assumes that the target is capable of being
    moved. Good luck.

    Mario, of course, might choose the wrong direction, but he is not such a known
    quantity to me as you and two others that I named are -- the two others whose names I have put into a hyphenated phrase at the top.
    I am still trying to get the hang of Mario's *modus operandi*, hence all the trouble to which I am going for him.

    Sure. You have fun with that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Tue Sep 7 19:07:04 2021
    On 7.9.2021. 17:42, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    I am short on time, so in this second reply I can only spare the time for three isolated
    issues where you seem to imagine that you know a lot more than I do.

    On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 10:51:58 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 7.9.2021. 3:32, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:


    And it is nothing like the permanent damage to your lungs or liver you
    could get from Covid-19. You can read about some of the grisly possibilities here,
    as well as the jarring statistic you can read already from the url (95 means 95%):

    https://theconversation.com/at-my-hospital-over-95-of-covid-19-patients-share-one-thing-in-common-theyre-unvaccinated-166708#_=_

    I don't know people, do you read at all, about Covid-19 illness?

    Do you? it seems that you have totally ignored the very title of the long and hard-hitting article that I have linked for you. Obviously, you never read it.

    No, I didn't read it. I did read the title, which says that 95 % of
    people in hospitals aren't vaccinated. The title says what's in article.
    Your point is that I think that vaccination is dangerous. No, I don't
    think that the danger is imminent, and that it causes some damage to
    body. So, why would I read it? If the article says that it doesn't
    damage body, well, I agree with this.

    It is NOT caused by the virus.

    Is your authority for this the usual "They say"? What makes you think that you haven't been duped by anti-vaxxer propaganda?

    There wasn't amti-vaxxer propaganda yet (and, I don't read anti-vaxxer
    propaganda, anyway, I don't go to Facebook, this forum, and the national
    tv, is my only source of information.). This was what experts found out
    at the very beginning of the outbreak.

    Is it that, as you were growing up, you realized that what the Communist government
    issued was full of lies, and uncritically believed everything that was critical of the government
    and widely asserted in the places you happen to have heard or read?
    And now you've carried this attitude over to all governments?

    I knew that Communist propaganda is a lie since I was just a little
    kid. Of course, I didn't figure out through all of the lies, but I automatically assume that, whatever communists are saying is a lie.
    Regarding all governments, I figured out that science is rotten (not
    so long ago, maybe not more than 10 years ago, but I noticed some
    "funny" things since I was a kid, since I am following space research
    from that age, and science was always wrong in this field of research,
    so, I was suspicious for a long time, I also knew that humans are not
    smart, since I am living on Balkans, in Croatia). So, in general,
    governments rely on science, science is rotten, so where does this leads
    us to? It was so good, for so long time, in the developed world, and now
    the developed world experiment too much, thinking nothing can go wrong.
    There is nothing worse than thinking that you are a god, that you know
    "the right way". First, you don't know a sh.t, and second, "the right
    way" changes, according to circumstances. You have to be smart at every
    point of your way, and not just to step accidentally onto the right
    track, thinking that you are a god, and follow in the same direction, no
    matter if the track turns away.

    It is that, weak organisms are destroyed by our
    immune system that lost its calibration.

    Be that as it may, I hope you realize that you are putting yourself at risk by not getting vaccinated.
    Don't imagine that you would be doing future generations a disservice by getting vaccinated.
    You said yourself that you are beyond the age of sexual indulgence.

    By my example I am giving my support to people who will have descendants, and who will not vaccinate.

    No, you didn't. You are under the impression that humans managed to
    create some Supermen that fights viruses.

    This is a complete falsehood. I never said anything of the sort.


    <snip for focus>


    They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and survived,
    has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated.

    But please, note that he also could suffer terrible physical damage even if >>> he survived. Fat lot of good any immunity will do him if he is an invalid for the rest of his life.

    Of course. He can die, if he isn't fit. The fittest survive, anybody
    of you ever gone to school, learning the basics of biology?

    I have, but it looks like you haven't: "survival of the fittest" is not a biological expression.
    It was coined by the non-biologist Herbert Spencer, who invented "social darwinism",
    one of whose worst expressions was the Nazi pseudoscience of a "Master Race."

    [By the way, was this pseudoscience the inspiration for "Supermen that fights viruses"?]


    The only way biologists use the term "the fittest survive" is by way of the barren tautology:
    the fittest are, BY DEFINITION, the ones that survive to pass their genes on to the population.

    It says NOTHING about what kinds of anatomical, or whatever, traits are more fit than others.
    The Nazis thought they knew, but biologists worthy of the name do not think that way.
    Except in the most obvious cases, they know better than to try and judge that some trait
    is more fit than another. A great deal depends on the environment, which is too unpredictable.
    In the last ice age there were gray kangaroos ten feet tall, because the environment favored
    large size; today the same species only has six foot tall kangaroos, because that is what
    the environment favors.

    Yes, I agree. And all this is very interesting discussion, on which I
    have nothing to add. If you have questions, please ask.
    Regarding the topic of vaccination, I believe I said a lot in my reply
    to Harshman. If you have any objections, again, please ask.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Tue Sep 7 10:41:00 2021
    On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 12:51:11 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/7/21 7:58 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 9:34:07 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/7/21 6:12 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    Harshman and Oxyaena and Simpson are rotten role models, but you seem
    to be emulating them here. What follows is more of the same:


    <snip of self-and-Simpson-and-Oxyaena-serving comments by yourself>


    It will be interesting to see his reaction, if any, to THIS post.

    Well, at least that served some kind of purpose and wasn't an insult. My >> reaction is that your comments on vaccines were on topic and largely
    correct.

    I think they were more correct in some places than yours. What makes you think that the
    following is true?

    "And your immune system gets nothing from a live virus that it doesn't
    get from the spike protein alone."

    What makes you think it isn't true? The spike protein is the antigen
    that the immune system reacts to.

    Where did you pick up this counterintuitive information? The protein coat
    is made up of more than just the spike protein, isn't it?

    For sure, the mRNA of the spike protein is just a small part of the RNA of single-strand genome of the
    coronavirus. The bulk of it is devoted to something I've never seen in any other
    organism: a coding for an enzyme that duplicates RNA directly. I've long known of
    transcriptase, reverse transcriptase, and DNA polymerase, but never before
    of RNA polymerase.

    It even raises questions about its origin. I have rejected any speculation that it is a relict from RNA world [can you guess why?] and instead believe that it arose
    by a mutation of one of the three classes of enzymes that I'd known about.

    By the way, I thought for a long time that reverse transcriptase is only known from
    retroviruses, but I've seen reports recently that claim it is coded for in the human genome.


    That's why vaccines are effective.

    I'm surprised to see you use such simplistic logic; it confuses necessary and sufficient conditions.


    This was from your parallel reply to Mario. I do not understand what you mean by
    "gets nothing." Do you imagine that whole of the damage wrought by
    Covid-19 is due to the spike protein alone? [1] or that the only antibodies the body
    produces against the live virus are targeted at the spike protein and no other
    part of the virus?

    Your first question is irrelevant, as damage is not the topic. For the
    second question, I think that's likely true. It's what is exposed on the surface. Are there other antigens also targeted? What do you know about
    that?


    [1] That would be grist for the mill of the anti-vaxxers who focus the greatest of their ire
    on mRNA vaccines. Of course, they would be under the spell of the most toxic
    piece of disinformation of all, that the mRNA would multiply and spread over all of your
    cells, but they will gladly take any crumb of support that comes their way, even from
    anti-anti-vaxxers like you and me.

    This would seem to be a footnote without a referent.

    What part of "... due to the spike protein alone? [1]" didn't you understand?


    What would be
    grist? What support for anti-vaxxers? Is it something I said?
    Mario will not be budged. It would help (well, no, nothing would actually help)
    to illuminate more of his inconsistencies.

    I intend to do so in any case, and also to show how mistaken he is about some pretty important things that you didn't try to show him being mistaken about.

    An example was Mario's sophomoric claims about "survival of the fittest."
    Dealt with by me after I posted the above.


    Let me be the judge of whether it helps or not.

    Sure. Your experience will be instructive. I will just take the
    opportunity to predict that nothing you do will change his view.

    Understood.


    For example, he opposed injected vaccines and asked why they aren't
    swallowed, but in fact he opposes oral vaccines too, so that entire
    argument was a distraction, probably made up on the spur of the moment,
    and without regard to coherence. At such times he does assume a trollish >> aspect.

    Did you bother to read what I wrote about the very thing you are talking about here?
    Yes.
    It was specifically designed to see whether he keeps sliding down the slippery slope
    or whether he sobers up and tries to get back on track. General comments like
    yours above do not tend to impose such choices on the people they are designed
    to nudge in the right direction.

    There is no nudging, as it assumes that the target is capable of being
    moved.

    I put the last clause in the wrong place. I had in mind the nudging I was doing,
    and should have realized that you never wrote anything like your general comment
    in reply to Mario.

    Good luck.


    Mario, of course, might choose the wrong direction, but he is not such a known
    quantity to me as you and two others that I named are -- the two others whose
    names I have put into a hyphenated phrase at the top.
    I am still trying to get the hang of Mario's *modus operandi*, hence all the trouble to which I am going for him.

    Sure. You have fun with that.

    I will. It is always good to know where individuals are coming from -- something one of your allies
    pretended not to believe in talk.origins, then soon revealed that he did very much believe it.


    Peter Nyikos
    Professor, Dept. of Mathematics
    Univ. of South Carolina -- standard disclaimer-- http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Tue Sep 7 11:29:58 2021
    On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 1:07:04 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 7.9.2021. 17:42, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    I am short on time, so in this second reply I can only spare the time for three isolated
    issues where you seem to imagine that you know a lot more than I do.

    On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 10:51:58 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 7.9.2021. 3:32, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:


    And it is nothing like the permanent damage to your lungs or liver you >>> could get from Covid-19. You can read about some of the grisly possibilities here,
    as well as the jarring statistic you can read already from the url (95 means 95%):

    https://theconversation.com/at-my-hospital-over-95-of-covid-19-patients-share-one-thing-in-common-theyre-unvaccinated-166708#_=_

    I don't know people, do you read at all, about Covid-19 illness?

    Do you? it seems that you have totally ignored the very title of the long and
    hard-hitting article that I have linked for you. Obviously, you never read it.

    No, I didn't read it. I did read the title, which says that 95 % of
    people in hospitals aren't vaccinated.

    Not quite. It says over 95% of Covid-19 patients in hospitals aren't vaccinated.
    These are the Covid-19 cases that are so severe, they require hospitalization.

    And yet, at least half of the people in the USA [1] have been vaccinated by now.
    That should tell you something about the effectiveness of the vaccine.

    [1] Alas, the rest of the world is mostly much worse off, because the richer countries are selfishly
    hoarding the vaccine. A month ago, some of the poorer countries had only 1.3% vaccinated.
    That was one of the comments I made to the article.]


    The title says what's in article.

    In fact, it says only a tiny smidgin of what's in the article, and you would know that if you had read it. Do you ever read anything besides titles and headlines?


    Your point is that I think that vaccination is dangerous. No, I don't
    think that the danger is imminent, and that it causes some damage to
    body. So, why would I read it?

    Because it is not about the damage the vaccine does,
    but about the far worse damage that the disease does.
    You would know that if you had read it.

    If the article says that it doesn't
    damage body, well, I agree with this.

    If you had read the article, you would have to agree that the disease can
    cause terrible damage to the body.

    Yet you would still refuse to be vaccinated, wouldn't you? Why?


    It is NOT caused by the virus.

    Is your authority for this the usual "They say"? What makes you think that you haven't been duped by anti-vaxxer propaganda?

    There wasn't amti-vaxxer propaganda yet (and, I don't read anti-vaxxer propaganda, anyway, I don't go to Facebook, this forum, and the national
    tv, is my only source of information.).

    Facebook has plenty of people spouting anti-vaxxer sentiments.
    But Facebook censors the worst of them, so it appears that it is
    the national tv is the source of the anti-vaxxer propaganda, "It is NOT caused by the virus. "


    This was what experts found out
    at the very beginning of the outbreak.

    Did you also see this on your national tv? Did they actually say who the "experts" were?

    I seriously doubt that there is anyone, including Dr. Fauci, who can be claimed to be an expert on the pandemic even NOW,
    so I would really like to know who these alleged "experts" were.

    Is it that, as you were growing up, you realized that what the Communist government
    issued was full of lies, and uncritically believed everything that was critical of the government
    and widely asserted in the places you happen to have heard or read?
    And now you've carried this attitude over to all governments?

    I knew that Communist propaganda is a lie since I was just a little
    kid. Of course, I didn't figure out through all of the lies, but I automatically assume that, whatever communists are saying is a lie.

    That's going too far in the opposite direction. I did too, for a long time,
    but I came to realize that some of it was true. For instance, the USA and Britain and France
    WERE imperialist countries, and the USA still is: that is at the base of the tragedy
    in Afghanistan, for instance.

    Regarding all governments, I figured out that science is rotten (not
    so long ago, maybe not more than 10 years ago, but I noticed some
    "funny" things since I was a kid, since I am following space research
    from that age, and science was always wrong in this field of research,

    HUH???? are you one of the people who believe that all the moon landings
    were faked, as was the near-tragedy of Apollo 13?

    We did have someone like that in talk.origins for several years, who went
    by the nickname "eridanus" [His real name may have been Leopolodo Perdomo.]
    He was a Spaniard who, in many ways, reminded me of you.

    so, I was suspicious for a long time, I also knew that humans are not
    smart, since I am living on Balkans, in Croatia). So, in general,
    governments rely on science, science is rotten, so where does this leads
    us to? It was so good, for so long time, in the developed world, and now
    the developed world experiment too much, thinking nothing can go wrong.
    There is nothing worse than thinking that you are a god, that you know
    "the right way".

    Then why are you so sure of so many things that aren't correct?


    First, you don't know a sh.t, and second, "the right
    way" changes, according to circumstances. You have to be smart at every
    point of your way, and not just to step accidentally onto the right
    track, thinking that you are a god, and follow in the same direction, no matter if the track turns away.
    It is that, weak organisms are destroyed by our
    immune system that lost its calibration.

    Be that as it may, I hope you realize that you are putting yourself at risk by not getting vaccinated.
    Don't imagine that you would be doing future generations a disservice by getting vaccinated.
    You said yourself that you are beyond the age of sexual indulgence.

    By my example I am giving my support to people who will have
    descendants, and who will not vaccinate.

    And who may suffer the tragedies that you would know about, if you
    had read the article I linked for you. Do you like the idea of their children spitting on your grave if they suffer them, say, thirty years from now,
    when they are as old as you and the children are in the prime of adulthood?


    No, you didn't. You are under the impression that humans managed to
    create some Supermen that fights viruses.

    This is a complete falsehood. I never said anything of the sort.


    <snip for focus>


    They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and survived, >>>> has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated.

    But please, note that he also could suffer terrible physical damage even if
    he survived. Fat lot of good any immunity will do him if he is an invalid for the rest of his life.

    Of course. He can die, if he isn't fit.

    If what I said about children spitting on your grave comes to pass, this
    might rouse them to more extreme actions, were they to see this.

    Are you familiar with Dickens's "A Christmas Carol"? Ebenezer Scrooge said something
    along the same lines, but he came to be remorseful when his heart went out to Tiny Tim,
    and the Ghost of Christmas Present brought his words back to haunt him.


    The fittest survive, anybody
    of you ever gone to school, learning the basics of biology?

    I have, but it looks like you haven't: "survival of the fittest" is not a biological expression.
    It was coined by the non-biologist Herbert Spencer, who invented "social darwinism",
    one of whose worst expressions was the Nazi pseudoscience of a "Master Race."

    [By the way, was this pseudoscience the inspiration for "Supermen that fights viruses"?]


    The only way biologists use the term "the fittest survive" is by way of the barren tautology:
    the fittest are, BY DEFINITION, the ones that survive to pass their genes on to the population.

    It says NOTHING about what kinds of anatomical, or whatever, traits are more fit than others.
    The Nazis thought they knew, but biologists worthy of the name do not think that way.
    Except in the most obvious cases, they know better than to try and judge that some trait
    is more fit than another. A great deal depends on the environment, which is too unpredictable.
    In the last ice age there were gray kangaroos ten feet tall, because the environment favored
    large size; today the same species only has six foot tall kangaroos, because that is what
    the environment favors.

    Yes, I agree. And all this is very interesting discussion, on which I
    have nothing to add. If you have questions, please ask.
    Regarding the topic of vaccination, I believe I said a lot in my reply
    to Harshman.

    A lot, but I think about 75% of what you need to say still hasn't been said.


    If you have any objections, again, please ask.

    I sure will, as you can see from my last reply to Harshman, less than an hour ago.


    Peter Nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Tue Sep 7 12:24:17 2021
    On 9/7/21 10:41 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 12:51:11 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/7/21 7:58 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 9:34:07 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote: >>>> On 9/7/21 6:12 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    Harshman and Oxyaena and Simpson are rotten role models, but you seem >>>>> to be emulating them here. What follows is more of the same:


    <snip of self-and-Simpson-and-Oxyaena-serving comments by yourself>


    It will be interesting to see his reaction, if any, to THIS post.

    Well, at least that served some kind of purpose and wasn't an insult. My >>>> reaction is that your comments on vaccines were on topic and largely
    correct.

    I think they were more correct in some places than yours. What makes you think that the
    following is true?

    "And your immune system gets nothing from a live virus that it doesn't
    get from the spike protein alone."

    What makes you think it isn't true? The spike protein is the antigen
    that the immune system reacts to.

    Where did you pick up this counterintuitive information? The protein coat
    is made up of more than just the spike protein, isn't it?

    Yes, but it's the spike protein that sticks out and is therefore
    accessible to antibodies.

    For sure, the mRNA of the spike protein is just a small part of the RNA of single-strand genome of the
    coronavirus. The bulk of it is devoted to something I've never seen in any other
    organism: a coding for an enzyme that duplicates RNA directly. I've long known of
    transcriptase, reverse transcriptase, and DNA polymerase, but never before
    of RNA polymerase.

    To be specific, RNA-templated RNA polymerase. DNA-tempated RNA
    polymerase is of course ubiquitous.

    It even raises questions about its origin. I have rejected any speculation that
    it is a relict from RNA world [can you guess why?] and instead believe that it arose
    by a mutation of one of the three classes of enzymes that I'd known about.

    By the way, I thought for a long time that reverse transcriptase is only known from
    retroviruses, but I've seen reports recently that claim it is coded for in the human genome.

    I have nothing to add here.

    That's why vaccines are effective.

    I'm surprised to see you use such simplistic logic; it confuses necessary and sufficient conditions.

    Sure. There could conceivably be some other protein that could act as an antigen. But do you know of any? It would have to be something exposed
    on the exterior of the viral coat.

    This was from your parallel reply to Mario. I do not understand what you mean by
    "gets nothing." Do you imagine that whole of the damage wrought by
    Covid-19 is due to the spike protein alone? [1] or that the only antibodies the body
    produces against the live virus are targeted at the spike protein and no other
    part of the virus?

    Your first question is irrelevant, as damage is not the topic. For the
    second question, I think that's likely true. It's what is exposed on the
    surface. Are there other antigens also targeted? What do you know about
    that?

    I ask again.

    [1] That would be grist for the mill of the anti-vaxxers who focus the greatest of their ire
    on mRNA vaccines. Of course, they would be under the spell of the most toxic
    piece of disinformation of all, that the mRNA would multiply and spread over all of your
    cells, but they will gladly take any crumb of support that comes their way, even from
    anti-anti-vaxxers like you and me.

    This would seem to be a footnote without a referent.

    What part of "... due to the spike protein alone? [1]" didn't you understand?

    Oh, sorry. Didn't find it. Why, then, is that grist for the anti-vaxxer
    mill? Still don't get it. Unless it's you making up a problem I didn't
    mention and attributing it to me. Again, nothing I said says that the
    damage caused by the virus can be attributed to the spike protein. If it
    were, there would be no point in vaccinations. Wherever did you get that?

    What would be
    grist? What support for anti-vaxxers? Is it something I said?
    Mario will not be budged. It would help (well, no, nothing would actually help)
    to illuminate more of his inconsistencies.

    I intend to do so in any case, and also to show how mistaken he is about >>> some pretty important things that you didn't try to show him being mistaken about.

    An example was Mario's sophomoric claims about "survival of the fittest." Dealt with by me after I posted the above.

    One has only so much time.

    Let me be the judge of whether it helps or not.

    Sure. Your experience will be instructive. I will just take the
    opportunity to predict that nothing you do will change his view.

    Understood.


    For example, he opposed injected vaccines and asked why they aren't
    swallowed, but in fact he opposes oral vaccines too, so that entire
    argument was a distraction, probably made up on the spur of the moment, >>>> and without regard to coherence. At such times he does assume a trollish >>>> aspect.

    Did you bother to read what I wrote about the very thing you are talking about here?
    Yes.
    It was specifically designed to see whether he keeps sliding down the slippery slope
    or whether he sobers up and tries to get back on track. General comments like
    yours above do not tend to impose such choices on the people they are designed
    to nudge in the right direction.

    There is no nudging, as it assumes that the target is capable of being
    moved.

    I put the last clause in the wrong place. I had in mind the nudging I was doing,
    and should have realized that you never wrote anything like your general comment
    in reply to Mario.

    ?

    Good luck.


    Mario, of course, might choose the wrong direction, but he is not such a known
    quantity to me as you and two others that I named are -- the two others whose
    names I have put into a hyphenated phrase at the top.
    I am still trying to get the hang of Mario's *modus operandi*, hence all the trouble to which I am going for him.

    Sure. You have fun with that.

    I will. It is always good to know where individuals are coming from -- something one of your allies
    pretended not to believe in talk.origins, then soon revealed that he did very much believe it.

    Your gratuitous insult fails to mention the name of the offender. I
    consider that progress. The next step is failing to put in the
    gratuitous insult at all.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Tue Sep 7 22:38:40 2021
    On 7.9.2021. 20:29, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 1:07:04 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 7.9.2021. 17:42, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    I am short on time, so in this second reply I can only spare the time for three isolated
    issues where you seem to imagine that you know a lot more than I do.

    On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 10:51:58 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote: >>>> On 7.9.2021. 3:32, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:


    And it is nothing like the permanent damage to your lungs or liver you >>>>> could get from Covid-19. You can read about some of the grisly possibilities here,
    as well as the jarring statistic you can read already from the url (95 means 95%):

    https://theconversation.com/at-my-hospital-over-95-of-covid-19-patients-share-one-thing-in-common-theyre-unvaccinated-166708#_=_

    I don't know people, do you read at all, about Covid-19 illness?

    Do you? it seems that you have totally ignored the very title of the long and
    hard-hitting article that I have linked for you. Obviously, you never read it.

    No, I didn't read it. I did read the title, which says that 95 % of
    people in hospitals aren't vaccinated.

    Not quite. It says over 95% of Covid-19 patients in hospitals aren't vaccinated.
    These are the Covid-19 cases that are so severe, they require hospitalization.

    And yet, at least half of the people in the USA [1] have been vaccinated by now.
    That should tell you something about the effectiveness of the vaccine.

    [1] Alas, the rest of the world is mostly much worse off, because the richer countries are selfishly
    hoarding the vaccine. A month ago, some of the poorer countries had only 1.3% vaccinated.
    That was one of the comments I made to the article.]

    I am discussing the effectiveness of vaccination, not the effectiveness of a specific vaccine.
    For example, my point would be that, if we didn't have vaccination
    before, this whole mess wouldn't happen at all. So, nobody would have
    severe symptoms.

    >The title says what's in article.

    In fact, it says only a tiny smidgin of what's in the article, and you would know that if you had read it. Do you ever read anything besides titles and headlines?

    Oh, I do. But I never read the whole internet. Although, when I just
    started to read newspapers (as a kid) I used to read them whole, from
    the first page to the last, every word, just to understand what's inside.
    But, today, to read some article, I need to have a reason. What would
    be a reason to read this particular article? I didn't find one, maybe I
    missed something? You, also, didn't point to the reason in this post,
    although you are insisting that I read it. I don't know why you are
    insisting, and you don't want to say why. I'll be glad to read it all
    through, if I have a good reason.
    For example, I mentioned why I didn't read it. Because you thought
    that I thought that I was afraid of vaccination damaging the body, and
    you showed this article in that context. This is how I am seeing that
    article (and I am not afraid of that, so there is no reason for this
    article to convince me in something I am already convinced in). But you
    are saying that there is something apart from that. Actually, you are
    not even saying that, you are not saying anything at all.

    Your point is that I think that vaccination is dangerous. No, I don't
    think that the danger is imminent, and that it causes some damage to
    body. So, why would I read it?

    Because it is not about the damage the vaccine does,
    but about the far worse damage that the disease does.
    You would know that if you had read it.

    But, I know that, too. I know about the damage that the disease does.
    I am afraid you didn't understand what I am talking about. You think
    that I don't know what damage disease does. I know, it is great damage.
    But, you don't know about the damage I am talking about. I am talking
    about the extinction. Not about the extinction of mammoths, or of
    sabre-toothed cats, but about the extinction of humans.
    And, you are saying that the damage that virus is doing is great. Yes,
    I know that. The damage that the next *mild* virus will inflict will be
    even greater. *Because* we are doing vaccination against viruses.
    This is like if an alcoholic is taking his first drink of the day to
    calm down his nerves. And, you are saying to me that this drink is
    beneficial, because it calms down his nerves. Well, because he is
    drinking, he has damaged nerves in the first place. And this first drink
    that will "calm" his nerves down will destruct his nerves even more.

    If the article says that it doesn't
    damage body, well, I agree with this.

    If you had read the article, you would have to agree that the disease can cause terrible damage to the body.

    Yet you would still refuse to be vaccinated, wouldn't you? Why?

    See above, :) .

    It is NOT caused by the virus.

    Is your authority for this the usual "They say"? What makes you think that >>> you haven't been duped by anti-vaxxer propaganda?

    There wasn't amti-vaxxer propaganda yet (and, I don't read anti-vaxxer
    propaganda, anyway, I don't go to Facebook, this forum, and the national
    tv, is my only source of information.).

    Facebook has plenty of people spouting anti-vaxxer sentiments.
    But Facebook censors the worst of them, so it appears that it is
    the national tv is the source of the anti-vaxxer propaganda, "It is NOT caused by the virus. "

    Not at all. Everything that Croatia does is tourism. Croatia cannot
    live if tourists don't come. National tv is promoting vaccination like
    mad. Every minute, every second. In fact, Croatia had excellent tourist
    season this year because we (our seaside) stayed in "orange" whole
    season, while the rest of Mediterranean was in "red". This is solely
    because of massive effort by the government.

    This was what experts found out
    at the very beginning of the outbreak.

    Did you also see this on your national tv? Did they actually say who the "experts" were?

    Yes, I saw this on national tv.

    I seriously doubt that there is anyone, including Dr. Fauci, who can be claimed
    to be an expert on the pandemic even NOW,
    so I would really like to know who these alleged "experts" were.

    These days you will not see mentioned this anywhere. Because this
    would feed anti-vaxxers, and the politics of every nation is to have vaccination as large as possible.
    For example, every day I see on national tv how Prime Minister talks
    how he doesn't understand the reason for people not to take vaccination.
    Yet, I never see on national tv somebody who would explain this to the
    Prime Minister, if he really wants to know. Why do I see every day Prime Minister talks how he doesn't understand the reason, and yet, I never
    see somebody who explains the reason? I can explain to him my reason,
    why nobody asks me?

    Is it that, as you were growing up, you realized that what the Communist government
    issued was full of lies, and uncritically believed everything that was critical of the government
    and widely asserted in the places you happen to have heard or read?
    And now you've carried this attitude over to all governments?

    I knew that Communist propaganda is a lie since I was just a little
    kid. Of course, I didn't figure out through all of the lies, but I
    automatically assume that, whatever communists are saying is a lie.

    That's going too far in the opposite direction. I did too, for a long time, but I came to realize that some of it was true. For instance, the USA and Britain and France
    WERE imperialist countries, and the USA still is: that is at the base of the tragedy
    in Afghanistan, for instance.

    Yes, you are right about that, I did realize this too. The other thing
    is that I don't see things (including the Imperialism) as good, or as
    bad. I may see them as smart, or as stupid. Of course, if you interpret
    "smart" as good, or "stupid" as bad... But, that's another topic.

    Regarding all governments, I figured out that science is rotten (not
    so long ago, maybe not more than 10 years ago, but I noticed some
    "funny" things since I was a kid, since I am following space research
    from that age, and science was always wrong in this field of research,

    HUH???? are you one of the people who believe that all the moon landings
    were faked, as was the near-tragedy of Apollo 13?

    We did have someone like that in talk.origins for several years, who went
    by the nickname "eridanus" [His real name may have been Leopolodo Perdomo.] He was a Spaniard who, in many ways, reminded me of you.

    Ha, ha, nothing like that. I followed space research closely, believed
    in it, and believed in science. And them comes some spacecraft to
    Jupiter, and all the scientists are surprised with what they found, many
    of them talking how the things that they found there were nothing like
    what they were expecting.

    so, I was suspicious for a long time, I also knew that humans are not
    smart, since I am living on Balkans, in Croatia). So, in general,
    governments rely on science, science is rotten, so where does this leads
    us to? It was so good, for so long time, in the developed world, and now
    the developed world experiment too much, thinking nothing can go wrong.
    There is nothing worse than thinking that you are a god, that you know
    "the right way".

    Then why are you so sure of so many things that aren't correct?

    Because I know that those particular things aren't correct. But, to
    preach some particular pathway, well, for that you have to be God,
    himself. To know that a particular pathway is the best, I have to know *everything*, every tiny bit.

    First, you don't know a sh.t, and second, "the right
    way" changes, according to circumstances. You have to be smart at every
    point of your way, and not just to step accidentally onto the right
    track, thinking that you are a god, and follow in the same direction, no
    matter if the track turns away.
    It is that, weak organisms are destroyed by our
    immune system that lost its calibration.

    Be that as it may, I hope you realize that you are putting yourself at risk by not getting vaccinated.
    Don't imagine that you would be doing future generations a disservice by getting vaccinated.
    You said yourself that you are beyond the age of sexual indulgence.

    By my example I am giving my support to people who will have
    descendants, and who will not vaccinate.

    And who may suffer the tragedies that you would know about, if you
    had read the article I linked for you. Do you like the idea of their children spitting on your grave if they suffer them, say, thirty years from now,
    when they are as old as you and the children are in the prime of adulthood?

    I don't bloody care what them, or anybody else, would do. I am spreading my knowledge, and I am living according to it. You may listen
    to what I am talking about, or you may not. I've seen too many idiots
    around me, in my life, to care about what some idiot will, or will not do.

    No, you didn't. You are under the impression that humans managed to
    create some Supermen that fights viruses.

    This is a complete falsehood. I never said anything of the sort.


    <snip for focus>


    They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and survived, >>>>>> has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated.

    But please, note that he also could suffer terrible physical damage even if
    he survived. Fat lot of good any immunity will do him if he is an invalid for the rest of his life.

    Of course. He can die, if he isn't fit.

    If what I said about children spitting on your grave comes to pass, this might rouse them to more extreme actions, were they to see this.

    Are you familiar with Dickens's "A Christmas Carol"? Ebenezer Scrooge said something
    along the same lines, but he came to be remorseful when his heart went out to Tiny Tim,
    and the Ghost of Christmas Present brought his words back to haunt him.

    I don't get this whole part. I didn't read literature when I was in
    school, and I am not familiar with this story.
    I am interested in what you mean by "taking extreme actions". In my
    view, they can take whichever actions they like, but I am interested in
    what you meant, never-the-less.

    The fittest survive, anybody
    of you ever gone to school, learning the basics of biology?

    I have, but it looks like you haven't: "survival of the fittest" is not a biological expression.
    It was coined by the non-biologist Herbert Spencer, who invented "social darwinism",
    one of whose worst expressions was the Nazi pseudoscience of a "Master Race."

    [By the way, was this pseudoscience the inspiration for "Supermen that fights viruses"?]


    The only way biologists use the term "the fittest survive" is by way of the barren tautology:
    the fittest are, BY DEFINITION, the ones that survive to pass their genes on to the population.

    It says NOTHING about what kinds of anatomical, or whatever, traits are more fit than others.
    The Nazis thought they knew, but biologists worthy of the name do not think that way.
    Except in the most obvious cases, they know better than to try and judge that some trait
    is more fit than another. A great deal depends on the environment, which is too unpredictable.
    In the last ice age there were gray kangaroos ten feet tall, because the environment favored
    large size; today the same species only has six foot tall kangaroos, because that is what
    the environment favors.

    Yes, I agree. And all this is very interesting discussion, on which I
    have nothing to add. If you have questions, please ask.
    Regarding the topic of vaccination, I believe I said a lot in my reply
    to Harshman.

    A lot, but I think about 75% of what you need to say still hasn't been said.

    Yes, definitely. But, I assume that I can never say it all. I am just
    responding, the best way I can.

    If you have any objections, again, please ask.

    I sure will, as you can see from my last reply to Harshman, less than an hour ago.

    And, thank you for that, :) .

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Tue Sep 7 15:20:37 2021
    I thought I was done with this thread for today, but I would like to call everyone's attention
    to a remarkable pterosaur find, complete with many fine and fascinating illustrations. Pandora reported on it ten days ago, and others seem to have overlooked the thread besides myself until now. I did a post about an hour ago which highlighted some of the features of the article that I thought would be of interest:

    https://groups.google.com/g/sci.bio.paleontology/c/SqialEOpviY/m/coCkwVYJAAAJ Re: Exceptionally well-preserved tapejarid skeleton from Brazil

    On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/7/21 10:41 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    Hitting only a few highlights:

    For sure, the mRNA of the spike protein is just a small part of the RNA of single-strand genome of the
    coronavirus. The bulk of it is devoted to something I've never seen in any other
    organism: a coding for an enzyme that duplicates RNA directly. I've long known of
    transcriptase, reverse transcriptase, and DNA polymerase, but never before of RNA polymerase.

    To be specific, RNA-templated RNA polymerase. DNA-tempated RNA
    polymerase is of course ubiquitous.

    Is that a synonym for transcriptase?


    It even raises questions about its origin. I have rejected any speculation that
    it is a relict from RNA world [can you guess why?] and instead believe that it arose
    by a mutation of one of the three classes of enzymes that I'd known about.

    This might still be a question of interest to specialists: which of the three classes is it most likely to have arisen from?

    <snip for focus>


    This was from your parallel reply to Mario. I do not understand what you mean by
    "gets nothing." Do you imagine that whole of the damage wrought by
    Covid-19 is due to the spike protein alone? [1] or that the only antibodies the body
    produces against the live virus are targeted at the spike protein and no other
    part of the virus?

    <snip>


    [1] That would be grist for the mill of the anti-vaxxers who focus the greatest of their ire
    on mRNA vaccines. Of course, they would be under the spell of the most toxic
    piece of disinformation of all, that the mRNA would multiply and spread over all of your
    cells, but they will gladly take any crumb of support that comes their way, even from
    anti-anti-vaxxers like you and me.

    This would seem to be a footnote without a referent.

    What part of "... due to the spike protein alone? [1]" didn't you understand?

    Oh, sorry. Didn't find it. Why, then, is that grist for the anti-vaxxer
    mill? Still don't get it.

    I guess you haven't read as much of the scaremongering as I have. With only the spike protein coded by the mRNA, it would be grist for their mill if all the damage
    due to the virus [near-destroyed lungs, etc. and including death] is caused by the spike protein
    and no other part of the virus.

    The following piece of scaremongering is disturbingly reminiscent of something Mario believes:
    the claim that as your immune system recognizes that a cell has been invaded by the spike protein
    and/or mRNA, it will attack and destroy the cell. Together with the scaremongering about it
    invading every cell of your body [impossible, for several good reasons] the inevitable outcome
    [expressly stated by the originator of a lot of this scaremongering] is massive organ failure
    leading to death.


    What bothers me most of all is that the anti-vaxxers and the knowledgeable people
    are almost completely sealed off from each other. The most knowledgeable scientists, who
    could easily refute this rank pseudoscience, almost invariably refrain from mentioning
    it for fear of "giving it legitimacy/publicity". And so the anti-vaxxers remain blissfully
    unaware of the falsity of all this pseudoscience. I've made tiny little dents in their ignorance as best
    I could, but it's a Sysyphean task.


    I will. It is always good to know where individuals are coming from -- something one of your allies
    pretended not to believe in talk.origins, then soon revealed that he did very much believe it.
    Your gratuitous insult fails to mention the name of the offender. I
    consider that progress. The next step is failing to put in the
    gratuitous insult at all.

    People deserve to know what a minefield talk.origins is. Daud Deden posted briefly there at one point.
    I welcomed him and congratulated him on attracting two of the best people there -- Andre Isaak
    and Ernest Major -- and told him that he would do well to heed their advice on not to try
    to extend the definition of "homologous" beyond the already confusing concept that it is.
    He thanked me for explaining WHY it is confusing, and the thread ended well.

    Others have not been so lucky. Ron Dean was so demoralized, after having gotten along tolerably well with
    someone, when that someone made a thoroughly despicable attack on him, that he seriously considered leaving talk.origins for good.

    Perhaps you think so poorly of Ron Dean that you would have said "good riddance" if he had left,
    like you said of the possibility of Ruben Safir leaving sci.bio.paleontology for good. But I think very
    much more humanely of both of them, and I managed to reassure Ron that he shouldn't be
    let down too much, now that he knows that the person in question does not post in good faith.


    Peter Nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Tue Sep 7 17:50:59 2021
    On 9/7/21 3:20 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    I thought I was done with this thread for today, but I would like to call everyone's attention
    to a remarkable pterosaur find, complete with many fine and fascinating illustrations. Pandora reported on it ten days ago, and others seem to have overlooked the thread besides myself until now. I did a post about an hour ago
    which highlighted some of the features of the article that I thought would be of interest:

    https://groups.google.com/g/sci.bio.paleontology/c/SqialEOpviY/m/coCkwVYJAAAJ Re: Exceptionally well-preserved tapejarid skeleton from Brazil

    On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 3:24:24 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/7/21 10:41 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    Hitting only a few highlights:

    For sure, the mRNA of the spike protein is just a small part of the RNA of single-strand genome of the
    coronavirus. The bulk of it is devoted to something I've never seen in any other
    organism: a coding for an enzyme that duplicates RNA directly. I've long known of
    transcriptase, reverse transcriptase, and DNA polymerase, but never before >>> of RNA polymerase.

    To be specific, RNA-templated RNA polymerase. DNA-tempated RNA
    polymerase is of course ubiquitous.

    Is that a synonym for transcriptase?

    "Transcriptase" seems to be a general term for any RNA polymerase,
    whatever the template.

    It even raises questions about its origin. I have rejected any speculation that
    it is a relict from RNA world [can you guess why?] and instead believe that it arose
    by a mutation of one of the three classes of enzymes that I'd known about.

    This might still be a question of interest to specialists: which of the three classes is it most likely to have arisen from?

    <snip for focus>

    I have no idea. There is of course a fourth option, that it's an
    independently evolved protein.

    This was from your parallel reply to Mario. I do not understand what you mean by
    "gets nothing." Do you imagine that whole of the damage wrought by
    Covid-19 is due to the spike protein alone? [1] or that the only antibodies the body
    produces against the live virus are targeted at the spike protein and no other
    part of the virus?

    <snip>


    [1] That would be grist for the mill of the anti-vaxxers who focus the greatest of their ire
    on mRNA vaccines. Of course, they would be under the spell of the most toxic
    piece of disinformation of all, that the mRNA would multiply and spread over all of your
    cells, but they will gladly take any crumb of support that comes their way, even from
    anti-anti-vaxxers like you and me.

    This would seem to be a footnote without a referent.

    What part of "... due to the spike protein alone? [1]" didn't you understand?

    Oh, sorry. Didn't find it. Why, then, is that grist for the anti-vaxxer
    mill? Still don't get it.

    I guess you haven't read as much of the scaremongering as I have. With only the
    spike protein coded by the mRNA, it would be grist for their mill if all the damage
    due to the virus [near-destroyed lungs, etc. and including death] is caused by the spike protein
    and no other part of the virus.

    Sure. But you are the only person to suggest such a thing, so why bring
    that up?

    The following piece of scaremongering is disturbingly reminiscent of something Mario believes:
    the claim that as your immune system recognizes that a cell has been invaded by the spike protein
    and/or mRNA, it will attack and destroy the cell. Together with the scaremongering about it
    invading every cell of your body [impossible, for several good reasons] the inevitable outcome
    [expressly stated by the originator of a lot of this scaremongering] is massive organ failure
    leading to death.

    Oddly enough, that seems not to have happened. How does an anti-vaxxer
    deal with that?

    What bothers me most of all is that the anti-vaxxers and the knowledgeable people
    are almost completely sealed off from each other. The most knowledgeable scientists, who
    could easily refute this rank pseudoscience, almost invariably refrain from mentioning
    it for fear of "giving it legitimacy/publicity". And so the anti-vaxxers remain blissfully
    unaware of the falsity of all this pseudoscience. I've made tiny little dents in their ignorance as best
    I could, but it's a Sysyphean task.

    You assume that anti-vaxxers would credit anything a scientist said.
    Aren't they more likely to reject contrary points out of hand?

    I will. It is always good to know where individuals are coming from -- something one of your allies
    pretended not to believe in talk.origins, then soon revealed that he did very much believe it.
    Your gratuitous insult fails to mention the name of the offender. I
    consider that progress. The next step is failing to put in the
    gratuitous insult at all.

    People deserve to know what a minefield talk.origins is.

    I see no reason they do, even if it were. Why not let them form their
    own opinions if and when they ever went there?p0-----

    Daud Deden posted briefly there at one point.
    I welcomed him and congratulated him on attracting two of the best people there -- Andre Isaak
    and Ernest Major -- and told him that he would do well to heed their advice on not to try
    to extend the definition of "homologous" beyond the already confusing concept that it is.
    He thanked me for explaining WHY it is confusing, and the thread ended well.

    Others have not been so lucky. Ron Dean was so demoralized, after having gotten along tolerably well with
    someone, when that someone made a thoroughly despicable attack on him, that he seriously considered leaving talk.origins for good.

    Perhaps you think so poorly of Ron Dean that you would have said "good riddance" if he had left,
    like you said of the possibility of Ruben Safir leaving sci.bio.paleontology for good. But I think very
    much more humanely of both of them, and I managed to reassure Ron that he shouldn't be
    let down too much, now that he knows that the person in question does not post in good faith.

    None of this is on topic for the thread or for sci.bio.paleontology.
    None of it is useful information for anyone here. It's the very epitome
    of gratuitous. Just stop, please.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oxyaena@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Wed Sep 8 03:49:53 2021
    On 9/7/2021 9:12 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:


    Harshman and Oxyaena and Simpson are rotten role models, but you seem
    to be emulating them here. What follows is more of the same:



    As usual, you can't help but drag our names through the mud even as
    you're "reprimanding" this Serbian Nazi.


    So, why don't you create a sparring
    partner for a boxer to train, instead using a live humans?

    This nonsense makes me wonder whether Erik Simpson was right to call you a troll.

    Wow, it only took you a couple years to notice the blindingly obvious.
    Kudos.

    He is a troll a great deal of the time himself, but as the old half-truth says,
    "It takes one to know one."

    Says the king of the trolls.



    Remainder deleted, to be replied to later.


    Peter Nyikos
    Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
    University of South Carolina
    http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

    Do your employers know that you're dirtying their good name with this gratuitous spam of yours?



    PS I see Thrinaxodon/Oxyaena is disappointed by the post to which you are replying,
    because I didn't reprimand you the way 'e was hoping I would. I suppose 'e will think
    that I still am not reprimanding you sufficiently. However, if you continue to deteriorate
    at the rate you are, perhaps his/her insatiable appetite for reprimands between
    people 'e hates with an unreasoning hatred will be temporarily appeased.

    Ah yes, here you are flaunting off your uncanny ability to read minds
    again. I must say, I have never seen a better psychic in my life.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From *Hemidactylus*@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Wed Sep 8 05:02:55 2021
    Peter Nyikos <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:
    I am short on time, so in this second reply I can only spare the time for three isolated
    issues where you seem to imagine that you know a lot more than I do.

    On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 10:51:58 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 7.9.2021. 3:32, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:


    And it is nothing like the permanent damage to your lungs or liver you
    could get from Covid-19. You can read about some of the grisly possibilities here,
    as well as the jarring statistic you can read already from the url (95 means 95%):

    https://theconversation.com/at-my-hospital-over-95-of-covid-19-patients-share-one-thing-in-common-theyre-unvaccinated-166708#_=_

    I don't know people, do you read at all, about Covid-19 illness?

    Do you? it seems that you have totally ignored the very title of the long and hard-hitting article that I have linked for you. Obviously, you never read it.


    It is NOT caused by the virus.

    Is your authority for this the usual "They say"? What makes you think that you haven't been duped by anti-vaxxer propaganda?

    Is it that, as you were growing up, you realized that what the Communist government
    issued was full of lies, and uncritically believed everything that was critical of the government
    and widely asserted in the places you happen to have heard or read?
    And now you've carried this attitude over to all governments?


    It is that, weak organisms are destroyed by our
    immune system that lost its calibration.

    Be that as it may, I hope you realize that you are putting yourself at
    risk by not getting vaccinated.
    Don't imagine that you would be doing future generations a disservice by getting vaccinated.
    You said yourself that you are beyond the age of sexual indulgence.


    <snip for focus>


    No, you didn't. You are under the impression that humans managed to
    create some Supermen that fights viruses.

    This is a complete falsehood. I never said anything of the sort.


    <snip for focus>


    They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and survived,
    has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated.

    But please, note that he also could suffer terrible physical damage even if >>> he survived. Fat lot of good any immunity will do him if he is an
    invalid for the rest of his life.

    Of course. He can die, if he isn't fit. The fittest survive, anybody
    of you ever gone to school, learning the basics of biology?

    I have, but it looks like you haven't: "survival of the fittest" is not a biological expression.
    It was coined by the non-biologist Herbert Spencer, who invented "social darwinism",
    one of whose worst expressions was the Nazi pseudoscience of a "Master Race."

    That seems quite unfair to Spencer. At worst he was a callous libertarian
    or proto-Randroid not a fascist. He thought in terms of a right to ignore
    the state. State imposed policies of who can reproduce seem contrary to
    such a laissez faire view no? Arguably social historian Richard Hofstadter “invented” social darwinism as a concept retrospectively applied to some disparate strains of thought half a century or more previous.

    Galton developed the idea of eugenics, which was a precursor to Nazi Master Race ideology, but would you too blame him for what came much later? Hitler
    and the Nazis were inspired by Madison Grant and others (Stoddard etc) who applied eugenics in the US in a very developed manner. The US had started putting sterilization statutes on its books and this procedure and its
    impact on individual rights came to a head in Buck v Bell (1927) a SCOTUS decision.

    Galton’s eugenics and Spencer’s libertarian callousness toward social reform are not the same thing. Eugenics was part of the package of reform promoted by American progressivism. So was conservation.

    Wildlife management was a form of conservation. Eugenics is akin to that.

    [By the way, was this pseudoscience the inspiration for "Supermen that fights viruses"?]

    Sounds like a convoluted application of Nietzschean rhetoric to immunology.
    Nietzsche too has been unfairly blamed for Nazi ideology.

    The only way biologists use the term "the fittest survive" is by way of
    the barren tautology:
    the fittest are, BY DEFINITION, the ones that survive to pass their genes
    on to the population.

    Survival is for nothing without reproduction.

    It says NOTHING about what kinds of anatomical, or whatever, traits are
    more fit than others.
    The Nazis thought they knew, but biologists worthy of the name do not think that way.
    Except in the most obvious cases, they know better than to try and judge that some trait
    is more fit than another. A great deal depends on the environment, which
    is too unpredictable.
    In the last ice age there were gray kangaroos ten feet tall, because the environment favored
    large size; today the same species only has six
    foot tall kangaroos, because that is what
    the environment favors.

    The Nazis were engaged in a dubious form of artificial selection or animal husbandry in their Master Race schema. But what they were doing wasn’t entirely eugenics. They pivoted to a hygiene model treating certain
    ethnicities as socially detrimental pathogens needing elimination from the
    body politic. That may be an important distinction.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From *Hemidactylus*@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Wed Sep 8 05:26:38 2021
    Peter Nyikos <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:

    [snip]

    Is that what you are really afraid of, that an anti-Covid-2 vaccine is more likely
    to hurt you, and to hurt you worse, than an invasion of SARS-CoV-2 viruses that your immune system hasn't got the any antibodies for?

    Here’s a great article debunking one of the anti-vax myths— the one about COVID vaccines altering DNA:

    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy

    It would take jumping hurdles of reverse transcription, access to the
    nucleus, and integration for which the mRNA vaccines lack the tools.

    Technically immunocytes have the capacity to alter their own DNA. Part of
    this is shuffling of antibody encoding genes. But there is another process known as hypermutation. If COVID infection or vaccination response gets to
    that point, that’s a case of indirect DNA alteration, but not confined to COVID and is a good thing as it diversifies the potential response to pathogens.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 8 15:01:52 2021
    On 8.9.2021. 12:02, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Peter Nyikos <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:
    I am short on time, so in this second reply I can only spare the time for three isolated
    issues where you seem to imagine that you know a lot more than I do.

    On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 10:51:58 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote: >>> On 7.9.2021. 3:32, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:


    And it is nothing like the permanent damage to your lungs or liver you >>>> could get from Covid-19. You can read about some of the grisly possibilities here,
    as well as the jarring statistic you can read already from the url (95 means 95%):

    https://theconversation.com/at-my-hospital-over-95-of-covid-19-patients-share-one-thing-in-common-theyre-unvaccinated-166708#_=_

    I don't know people, do you read at all, about Covid-19 illness?

    Do you? it seems that you have totally ignored the very title of the long and
    hard-hitting article that I have linked for you. Obviously, you never read it.


    It is NOT caused by the virus.

    Is your authority for this the usual "They say"? What makes you think that >> you haven't been duped by anti-vaxxer propaganda?

    Is it that, as you were growing up, you realized that what the Communist government
    issued was full of lies, and uncritically believed everything that was
    critical of the government
    and widely asserted in the places you happen to have heard or read?
    And now you've carried this attitude over to all governments?


    It is that, weak organisms are destroyed by our
    immune system that lost its calibration.

    Be that as it may, I hope you realize that you are putting yourself at
    risk by not getting vaccinated.
    Don't imagine that you would be doing future generations a disservice by
    getting vaccinated.
    You said yourself that you are beyond the age of sexual indulgence.


    <snip for focus>


    No, you didn't. You are under the impression that humans managed to
    create some Supermen that fights viruses.

    This is a complete falsehood. I never said anything of the sort.


    <snip for focus>


    They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and survived, >>>>> has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated.

    But please, note that he also could suffer terrible physical damage even if
    he survived. Fat lot of good any immunity will do him if he is an
    invalid for the rest of his life.

    Of course. He can die, if he isn't fit. The fittest survive, anybody
    of you ever gone to school, learning the basics of biology?

    I have, but it looks like you haven't: "survival of the fittest" is not a
    biological expression.
    It was coined by the non-biologist Herbert Spencer, who invented "social darwinism",
    one of whose worst expressions was the Nazi pseudoscience of a "Master Race."

    That seems quite unfair to Spencer. At worst he was a callous libertarian
    or proto-Randroid not a fascist. He thought in terms of a right to ignore
    the state. State imposed policies of who can reproduce seem contrary to
    such a laissez faire view no? Arguably social historian Richard Hofstadter “invented” social darwinism as a concept retrospectively applied to some disparate strains of thought half a century or more previous.

    Galton developed the idea of eugenics, which was a precursor to Nazi Master Race ideology, but would you too blame him for what came much later? Hitler and the Nazis were inspired by Madison Grant and others (Stoddard etc) who applied eugenics in the US in a very developed manner. The US had started putting sterilization statutes on its books and this procedure and its
    impact on individual rights came to a head in Buck v Bell (1927) a SCOTUS decision.

    Galton’s eugenics and Spencer’s libertarian callousness toward social reform are not the same thing. Eugenics was part of the package of reform promoted by American progressivism. So was conservation.

    Wildlife management was a form of conservation. Eugenics is akin to that.

    [By the way, was this pseudoscience the inspiration for "Supermen that fights viruses"?]

    Sounds like a convoluted application of Nietzschean rhetoric to immunology.
    Nietzsche too has been unfairly blamed for Nazi ideology.

    The only way biologists use the term "the fittest survive" is by way of
    the barren tautology:
    the fittest are, BY DEFINITION, the ones that survive to pass their genes
    on to the population.

    Survival is for nothing without reproduction.

    It says NOTHING about what kinds of anatomical, or whatever, traits are
    more fit than others.
    The Nazis thought they knew, but biologists worthy of the name do not think that way.
    Except in the most obvious cases, they know better than to try and judge that some trait
    is more fit than another. A great deal depends on the environment, which
    is too unpredictable.
    In the last ice age there were gray kangaroos ten feet tall, because the
    environment favored
    large size; today the same species only has six
    foot tall kangaroos, because that is what
    the environment favors.

    The Nazis were engaged in a dubious form of artificial selection or animal husbandry in their Master Race schema. But what they were doing wasn’t entirely eugenics. They pivoted to a hygiene model treating certain ethnicities as socially detrimental pathogens needing elimination from the body politic. That may be an important distinction.

    I don't know much about what you are writing, but my belief also is
    that certain ethnicities (or groups, or types, like psychopaths) should
    be eliminated as a form of hygiene. After all, Jews were treated like
    that since Jews exist. For sure there was a reason for that.
    In democracy (as I am seeing it), he who does things to harm majority,
    he should be treated as a pest. Isn't this the very definition of the
    word "pest"?
    "A pest is any animal or plant harmful to humans or human concerns."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pest_(organism)
    I was always a minority, I was always different. I even declared
    myself as a minority, while my both parents are Croats, at one time I
    declared myself an American, and later, an Italian.
    But, whatever I do, I am doing it for the benefit of the majority,
    otherwise, why would they tolerate me? After all, I am shitting onto
    their world, it is me who is not to standards, who is wrong, not them,
    it is their world, one should have respect for that.
    Germany does much better without Jews than with Jews. Jews without
    Germans are worse than Germans without Jews. Yet, when Jews were in
    Germany, it is Jews who were better. They were better than Germans in
    German country, yet, if those two compete in their own countries, it is
    Germans that are better.
    There is a flow (I hope this is the right word, like "fault") in a
    system which allows parasites to exploit the host. This is a natural
    thing, parasites in nature also exploit system faults. Jews know about
    that, and they exploit it shamelessly wherever they can. The very
    religion, which doesn't take in new believers, tells you that this is a minority that wants to exploit the majority. Things like that shouldn't
    be allowed.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Wed Sep 8 06:06:38 2021
    On 9/8/21 6:01 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 8.9.2021. 12:02, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Peter Nyikos <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:
    I am short on time, so in this second reply I can only spare the time
    for three isolated
    issues where you seem to imagine that you know a lot more than I do.

    On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 10:51:58 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic
    wrote:
    On 7.9.2021. 3:32, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario
    Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:


    And it is nothing like the permanent damage to your lungs or liver you >>>>> could get from Covid-19. You can read about some of the grisly
    possibilities here,
    as well as the jarring statistic you can read already from the url
    (95 means 95%):

    https://theconversation.com/at-my-hospital-over-95-of-covid-19-patients-share-one-thing-in-common-theyre-unvaccinated-166708#_=_


    I don't know people, do you read at all, about Covid-19 illness?

    Do you? it seems that you have totally ignored the very title of the
    long and
    hard-hitting article that I have linked for you. Obviously, you never
    read it.


    It is NOT caused by the virus.

    Is your authority for this the usual "They say"? What makes you think
    that
    you haven't been duped by anti-vaxxer propaganda?

    Is it that, as you were growing up, you realized that what the
    Communist government
    issued was full of lies, and uncritically believed everything that was
    critical of the government
    and widely asserted in the places you happen to have heard or read?
    And now you've carried this attitude over to all governments?


    It is that, weak organisms are destroyed by our
    immune system that lost its calibration.

    Be that as it may, I hope you realize that you are putting yourself at
    risk by not getting vaccinated.
    Don't imagine that you would be doing future generations a disservice by >>> getting vaccinated.
    You said yourself that you are beyond the age of sexual indulgence.


    <snip for focus>


    No, you didn't. You are under the impression that humans managed to
    create some Supermen that fights viruses.

    This is a complete falsehood. I never said anything of the sort.


    <snip for focus>


    They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and survived, >>>>>> has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated.

    But please, note that he also could suffer terrible physical damage
    even if
    he survived. Fat lot of good any immunity will do him if he is an
    invalid for the rest of his life.

    Of course. He can die, if he isn't fit. The fittest survive, anybody
    of you ever gone to school, learning the basics of biology?

    I have, but it looks like you haven't: "survival of the fittest" is
    not a
    biological expression.
    It was coined by the non-biologist Herbert Spencer, who invented
    "social darwinism",
    one of whose worst expressions was the Nazi pseudoscience of a
    "Master Race."

    That seems quite unfair to Spencer. At worst he was a callous libertarian
    or proto-Randroid not a fascist. He thought in terms of a right to ignore
    the state. State imposed policies of who can reproduce seem contrary to
    such a laissez faire view no? Arguably social historian Richard
    Hofstadter
    “invented” social darwinism as a concept retrospectively applied to some >> disparate strains of thought half a century or more previous.

    Galton developed the idea of eugenics, which was a precursor to Nazi
    Master
    Race ideology, but would you too blame him for what came much later?
    Hitler
    and the Nazis were inspired by Madison Grant and others (Stoddard etc)
    who
    applied eugenics in the US in a very developed manner. The US had started
    putting sterilization statutes on its books and this procedure and its
    impact on individual rights came to a head in Buck v Bell (1927) a SCOTUS
    decision.

    Galton’s eugenics and Spencer’s libertarian callousness toward social
    reform are not the same thing. Eugenics was part of the package of reform
    promoted by American progressivism. So was conservation.

    Wildlife management was a form of conservation. Eugenics is akin to that. >>>
    [By the way, was this pseudoscience the inspiration for "Supermen
    that fights viruses"?]

    Sounds like a convoluted application of Nietzschean rhetoric to
    immunology.
      Nietzsche too has been unfairly blamed for Nazi ideology.

    The only way biologists use the term "the fittest survive" is by way of
    the barren tautology:
    the fittest are, BY DEFINITION, the ones that survive to pass their
    genes
    on to the population.

    Survival is for nothing without reproduction.

    It says NOTHING about what kinds of anatomical, or whatever, traits are
    more fit than others.
    The Nazis thought they knew, but biologists worthy of the name do not
    think that way.
    Except in the most obvious cases, they know better than to try and
    judge that some trait
    is more fit than another.  A great deal depends on the environment,
    which
    is too unpredictable.
    In the last ice age there were gray kangaroos ten feet tall, because the >>> environment favored
    large size; today the same species only has six
    foot tall kangaroos, because that is what
    the environment favors.

    The Nazis were engaged in a dubious form of artificial selection or
    animal
    husbandry in their Master Race schema. But what they were doing wasn’t
    entirely eugenics. They pivoted to a hygiene model treating certain
    ethnicities as socially detrimental pathogens needing elimination from
    the
    body politic. That may be an important distinction.

            I don't know much about what you are writing, but my belief also is that certain ethnicities (or groups, or types, like psychopaths) should be eliminated as a form of hygiene. After all, Jews were treated
    like that since Jews exist. For sure there was a reason for that.
            In democracy (as I am seeing it), he who does things to harm majority, he should be treated as a pest. Isn't this the very definition
    of the word "pest"?
            "A pest is any animal or plant harmful to humans or human concerns."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pest_(organism)
            I was always a minority, I was always different. I even declared myself as a minority, while my both parents are Croats, at one
    time I declared myself an American, and later, an Italian.
            But, whatever I do, I am doing it for the benefit of the majority, otherwise, why would they tolerate me? After all, I am
    shitting onto their world, it is me who is not to standards, who is
    wrong, not them, it is their world, one should have respect for that.
            Germany does much better without Jews than with Jews. Jews without Germans are worse than Germans without Jews. Yet, when Jews were
    in Germany, it is Jews who were better. They were better than Germans in German country, yet, if those two compete in their own countries, it is Germans that are better.
            There is a flow (I hope this is the right word, like "fault") in a system which allows parasites to exploit the host. This is a
    natural thing, parasites in nature also exploit system faults. Jews know about that, and they exploit it shamelessly wherever they can. The very religion, which doesn't take in new believers, tells you that this is a minority that wants to exploit the majority. Things like that shouldn't
    be allowed.

    Holy shit! He's a Nazi??

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Wed Sep 8 15:20:57 2021
    On 8.9.2021. 15:06, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/8/21 6:01 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 8.9.2021. 12:02, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Peter Nyikos <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:
    I am short on time, so in this second reply I can only spare the
    time for three isolated
    issues where you seem to imagine that you know a lot more than I do.

    On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 10:51:58 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic
    wrote:
    On 7.9.2021. 3:32, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario
    Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:


    And it is nothing like the permanent damage to your lungs or liver >>>>>> you
    could get from Covid-19. You can read about some of the grisly
    possibilities here,
    as well as the jarring statistic you can read already from the url >>>>>> (95 means 95%):

    https://theconversation.com/at-my-hospital-over-95-of-covid-19-patients-share-one-thing-in-common-theyre-unvaccinated-166708#_=_


    I don't know people, do you read at all, about Covid-19 illness?

    Do you? it seems that you have totally ignored the very title of the
    long and
    hard-hitting article that I have linked for you. Obviously, you
    never read it.


    It is NOT caused by the virus.

    Is your authority for this the usual "They say"? What makes you
    think that
    you haven't been duped by anti-vaxxer propaganda?

    Is it that, as you were growing up, you realized that what the
    Communist government
    issued was full of lies, and uncritically believed everything that was >>>> critical of the government
    and widely asserted in the places you happen to have heard or read?
    And now you've carried this attitude over to all governments?


    It is that, weak organisms are destroyed by our
    immune system that lost its calibration.

    Be that as it may, I hope you realize that you are putting yourself at >>>> risk by not getting vaccinated.
    Don't imagine that you would be doing future generations a
    disservice by
    getting vaccinated.
    You said yourself that you are beyond the age of sexual indulgence.


    <snip for focus>


    No, you didn't. You are under the impression that humans managed to
    create some Supermen that fights viruses.

    This is a complete falsehood. I never said anything of the sort.


    <snip for focus>


    They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and survived, >>>>>>> has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated.

    But please, note that he also could suffer terrible physical
    damage even if
    he survived. Fat lot of good any immunity will do him if he is an
    invalid for the rest of his life.

    Of course. He can die, if he isn't fit. The fittest survive, anybody >>>>> of you ever gone to school, learning the basics of biology?

    I have, but it looks like you haven't: "survival of the fittest" is
    not a
    biological expression.
    It was coined by the non-biologist Herbert Spencer, who invented
    "social darwinism",
    one of whose worst expressions was the Nazi pseudoscience of a
    "Master Race."

    That seems quite unfair to Spencer. At worst he was a callous
    libertarian
    or proto-Randroid not a fascist. He thought in terms of a right to
    ignore
    the state. State imposed policies of who can reproduce seem contrary to
    such a laissez faire view no? Arguably social historian Richard
    Hofstadter
    “invented” social darwinism as a concept retrospectively applied to some
    disparate strains of thought half a century or more previous.

    Galton developed the idea of eugenics, which was a precursor to Nazi
    Master
    Race ideology, but would you too blame him for what came much later?
    Hitler
    and the Nazis were inspired by Madison Grant and others (Stoddard
    etc) who
    applied eugenics in the US in a very developed manner. The US had
    started
    putting sterilization statutes on its books and this procedure and its
    impact on individual rights came to a head in Buck v Bell (1927) a
    SCOTUS
    decision.

    Galton’s eugenics and Spencer’s libertarian callousness toward social >>> reform are not the same thing. Eugenics was part of the package of
    reform
    promoted by American progressivism. So was conservation.

    Wildlife management was a form of conservation. Eugenics is akin to
    that.

    [By the way, was this pseudoscience the inspiration for "Supermen
    that fights viruses"?]

    Sounds like a convoluted application of Nietzschean rhetoric to
    immunology.
      Nietzsche too has been unfairly blamed for Nazi ideology.

    The only way biologists use the term "the fittest survive" is by way of >>>> the barren tautology:
    the fittest are, BY DEFINITION, the ones that survive to pass their
    genes
    on to the population.

    Survival is for nothing without reproduction.

    It says NOTHING about what kinds of anatomical, or whatever, traits are >>>> more fit than others.
    The Nazis thought they knew, but biologists worthy of the name do
    not think that way.
    Except in the most obvious cases, they know better than to try and
    judge that some trait
    is more fit than another.  A great deal depends on the environment,
    which
    is too unpredictable.
    In the last ice age there were gray kangaroos ten feet tall, because
    the
    environment favored
    large size; today the same species only has six
    foot tall kangaroos, because that is what
    the environment favors.

    The Nazis were engaged in a dubious form of artificial selection or
    animal
    husbandry in their Master Race schema. But what they were doing wasn’t >>> entirely eugenics. They pivoted to a hygiene model treating certain
    ethnicities as socially detrimental pathogens needing elimination
    from the
    body politic. That may be an important distinction.

             I don't know much about what you are writing, but my belief >> also is that certain ethnicities (or groups, or types, like
    psychopaths) should be eliminated as a form of hygiene. After all,
    Jews were treated like that since Jews exist. For sure there was a
    reason for that.
             In democracy (as I am seeing it), he who does things to harm
    majority, he should be treated as a pest. Isn't this the very
    definition of the word "pest"?
             "A pest is any animal or plant harmful to humans or human >> concerns."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pest_(organism)
             I was always a minority, I was always different. I even
    declared myself as a minority, while my both parents are Croats, at
    one time I declared myself an American, and later, an Italian.
             But, whatever I do, I am doing it for the benefit of the
    majority, otherwise, why would they tolerate me? After all, I am
    shitting onto their world, it is me who is not to standards, who is
    wrong, not them, it is their world, one should have respect for that.
             Germany does much better without Jews than with Jews. Jews >> without Germans are worse than Germans without Jews. Yet, when Jews
    were in Germany, it is Jews who were better. They were better than
    Germans in German country, yet, if those two compete in their own
    countries, it is Germans that are better.
             There is a flow (I hope this is the right word, like "fault")
    in a system which allows parasites to exploit the host. This is a
    natural thing, parasites in nature also exploit system faults. Jews
    know about that, and they exploit it shamelessly wherever they can.
    The very religion, which doesn't take in new believers, tells you that
    this is a minority that wants to exploit the majority. Things like
    that shouldn't be allowed.

    Holy shit! He's a Nazi??

    It is Jews who should apologize to others, for everything they did to
    others in the past.
    Regarding Nazi, isn't the definition of Nazism that Germans are better
    than the rest? In that regard I am not a Nazi.
    This is what Wikipedia says:
    "Nazism is a form of fascism, with disdain for liberal democracy and
    the parliamentary system. It incorporates fervent antisemitism,
    anti-communism, scientific racism, and the use of eugenics into its
    creed.... ...Nazism subscribed to pseudo-scientific theories of a racial hierarchy and social Darwinism, identifying the Germans as a part of
    what the Nazis regarded as an Aryan or Nordic master race. It aimed to
    overcome social divisions and create a homogeneous German society based
    on racial purity which represented a people's community
    (Volksgemeinschaft). The Nazis aimed to unite all Germans living in historically German territory, as well as gain additional lands for
    German expansion under the doctrine of Lebensraum and exclude those who
    they deemed either Community Aliens or "inferior" races."
    I am nothing like Nazi, I cherish democracy, I am not a chauvinist, I
    don't aim to overcome social divisions, I don't aim to unite whole
    nations, and I don't think that Jews are "inferior race". I think that
    Jews (and other parasites) are dangerous, but not "inferior race".
    Nazism do incorporate antisemitism, but antisemitism isn't Nazism. I
    am not against Semites, but I am against Jews, and against communists. I
    am against *anybody* who wants to harm the majority.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 8 11:46:06 2021
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:26:43 AM UTC-4, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    [snip]

    To Mario:
    Is that what you are really afraid of, that an anti-Covid-2 vaccine is more likely
    to hurt you, and to hurt you worse, than an invasion of SARS-CoV-2 viruses that your immune system hasn't got any antibodies for?

    Here’s a great article debunking one of the anti-vax myths— the one about
    COVID vaccines altering DNA:


    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy

    It would take jumping hurdles of reverse transcription, access to the nucleus, and integration for which the mRNA vaccines lack the tools.

    This will scotch the altered DNA myth, but not kill it. Or kill it and not drive a stake through its heart [pick your metaphor].
    More is needed to drive a stake through its heart.

    There may indeed be some some reverse transcriptase floating around,
    either from a retrovirus (e. g., HIV) infecting the same cell, or the body's own reverse transcriptase
    [something whose existence I disbelieved until this summer] and perhaps it could produce DNA
    that codes for the mRNA. At this point, the natural question arises: what's to stop
    that DNA from being transcribed right in the cytoplasm to form more mRNA, to
    be reverse transcribed... in an endless feedback loop? The article doesn't mention this question.

    Fortunately, there are two answers. First, transcription takes place in the nucleus.
    And second, transcription doesn't get initiated unless the DNA has a somewhat long recognition sequence of nucleotides in the right place. And the mRNA lacks the complementary sequence. It does have the much shorter recognition sequence to initiate translation into spike protein, but that won't initiate transcription.


    There is another toxic bit of scaremongering that might fool some people
    into thinking the first answer can be circumvented. And that is that
    "the vaccine alters the working of your mitochondria." This slogan
    has gone viral without any explanation of what the alleged alteration
    is or how it is caused.

    Worst case scenario would be if the reverse-transcribed DNA could get
    into your mitochondria, which may not have the safeguards of the nucleus. Whether this is possible or not, I cannot answer myself [and neither does the linked article].

    However, I maintain that the second answer -- lack of a recognition sequence -- is enough to drive a stake through the heart of the myth.


    Technically immunocytes have the capacity to alter their own DNA. Part of this is shuffling of antibody encoding genes. But there is another process known as hypermutation. If COVID infection or vaccination response gets to that point, that’s a case of indirect DNA alteration, but not confined to COVID and is a good thing as it diversifies the potential response to pathogens.

    As usual, you are so fond of glibness that you don't spell out the relevance, if any, to possible damage caused by the mRNA. Do you know some reasons
    why that worst case scenario cannot come to pass?

    If not, perhaps others do. Hemi, see if you can find someone in talk.origins who has the
    background knowledge to drive a second stake through the heart of the myth.
    In this high-stakes debate, overkill is a virtue.


    Peter Nyikos

    PS Feel free to groan at my pun.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 8 12:21:32 2021
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:03:01 AM UTC-4, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 10:51:58 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 7.9.2021. 3:32, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 11:47:13 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:

    You are under the impression that humans managed to
    create some Supermen that fights viruses.

    A Master Race? :) Anyway, the question is moot:

    This is a complete falsehood. I never said anything of the sort.


    <snip for focus>


    They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and survived, >>>> has 7 times better immunity than the one who was vaccinated.

    But please, note that he also could suffer terrible physical damage even if
    he survived. Fat lot of good any immunity will do him if he is an
    invalid for the rest of his life.

    Of course. He can die, if he isn't fit. The fittest survive, anybody
    of you ever gone to school, learning the basics of biology?

    I have, but it looks like you haven't: "survival of the fittest" is not a biological expression.
    It was coined by the non-biologist Herbert Spencer, who invented "social darwinism",
    one of whose worst expressions was the Nazi pseudoscience of a "Master Race."

    That seems quite unfair to Spencer. At worst he was a callous libertarian
    or proto-Randroid not a fascist.

    Back in 1958, when I spent a few weeks in NYC, I was the guest of someone who subscribed to one of the tabloids [not the Post, perhaps the Daily News].
    It had a regular one-panel comic strip feature named "Ching Chow",
    each one with a pithy saying. I still remember two of them:

    1. Rebuke from a friend is worth more than praise from a flatterer.

    As you can see, I have been rebuking Mario and will continue to do so, and perhaps he considers me to be his friend despite that.


    It is the second one that applies to Herbert Spencer.

    2. A fool can start a stone rolling that a thousand wise men cannot stop.

    He thought in terms of a right to ignore
    the state. State imposed policies of who can reproduce seem contrary to
    such a laissez faire view no?

    Spencer started the stone of social darwinism rolling nevertheless,
    and others gave the stone new impetus to the point where
    a thousand wise men couldn't stop it. Maybe Herbert Spencer was
    one of them, if he saw some state imposed eugenics being justified by a perceived
    "fitness" of one kind of person over another. Mental "defectives" were
    one obvious candidate for the designation of "unfit."


    Arguably social historian Richard Hofstadter
    “invented” social darwinism as a concept retrospectively applied to some disparate strains of thought half a century or more previous.

    Irrelevant semantics. "Survival of the fittest human beings" started that
    stone rolling down a steep slope regardless of whether it was called "social darwinism".

    [Note my consistent use of lower case d. The less sullied the name of
    Charles Darwin by this rolling stone, the better.]

    Galton developed the idea of eugenics, which was a precursor to Nazi Master Race ideology, but would you too blame him for what came much later?

    I'm not the one to point fingers; there are enough social scientists in academe to do that job.


    Hitler and the Nazis were inspired by Madison Grant and others (Stoddard etc) who
    applied eugenics in the US in a very developed manner. The US had started putting sterilization statutes on its books and this procedure and its impact on individual rights came to a head in Buck v Bell (1927) a SCOTUS decision.

    Galton’s eugenics and Spencer’s libertarian callousness toward social reform are not the same thing. Eugenics was part of the package of reform promoted by American progressivism. So was conservation.

    So was Planned Parenthood, thanks to Margaret Sanger, who was very
    much into eugenics.


    Wildlife management was a form of conservation. Eugenics is akin to that.

    Peter Singer would probably agree.


    [By the way, was this pseudoscience the inspiration for "Supermen that fights viruses"?]

    Sounds like a convoluted application of Nietzschean rhetoric to immunology. Nietzsche too has been unfairly blamed for Nazi ideology.

    The Nazis were secular syncretists. They readily absorbed ideas that they could
    turn to their ideological ends.


    The only way biologists use the term "the fittest survive" is by way of the barren tautology:
    the fittest are, BY DEFINITION, the ones that survive to pass their genes on to the population.

    Survival is for nothing without reproduction.


    Right, and all too many use the terms "fit" and "unfit" in ways divorced from it.
    That was a point I made next:

    It says NOTHING about what kinds of anatomical, or whatever, traits are more fit than others.
    The Nazis thought they knew, but biologists worthy of the name do not think that way.
    Except in the most obvious cases, they know better than to try and judge that some trait
    is more fit than another. A great deal depends on the environment, which is too unpredictable.
    In the last ice age there were gray kangaroos ten feet tall, because the environment favored large size; today the same species only has six
    foot tall kangaroos, because that is what the environment favors.

    The Nazis were engaged in a dubious form of artificial selection or animal husbandry in their Master Race schema. But what they were doing wasn’t entirely eugenics. They pivoted to a hygiene model treating certain ethnicities as socially detrimental pathogens needing elimination from the body politic. That may be an important distinction.

    I fail to see the difference. There is no science of eugenics, so people
    are free to make eugenics in their own image. The canard of Christians
    "making God in their own image" is one expression of a powerful meme
    that has been cast loose from its original moorings.


    Peter Nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Wed Sep 8 18:24:19 2021
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 9:20:57 AM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 8.9.2021. 15:06, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/8/21 6:01 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 8.9.2021. 12:02, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Except in the most obvious cases, [biologists] know better than to try and
    judge that some trait
    is more fit than another. A great deal depends on the environment,
    which is too unpredictable.
    In the last ice age there were gray kangaroos ten feet tall, >>>>because the environment favored large size; today the same species only has six
    foot tall kangaroos, because that is what the environment favors.

    The Nazis were engaged in a dubious form of artificial selection or
    animal
    husbandry in their Master Race schema. But what they were doing wasn’t >>> entirely eugenics. They pivoted to a hygiene model treating certain
    ethnicities as socially detrimental pathogens needing elimination
    from the
    body politic. That may be an important distinction.

    I don't know much about what you are writing, but my belief
    also is that certain ethnicities (or groups, or types, like
    psychopaths) should be eliminated as a form of hygiene.

    Using whose criteria? Why do you latch onto Jews right away?
    What have they done to you?


    After all, Jews were treated like that since Jews exist.

    Only by some peoples. The Muslims only sporadically did that.
    At other times they were the tolerant ones, treating Jews as "People of the Book".

    Leaving old history behind for one line: do you know what the attitude of the Taliban is towards Jews? I don't.

    Jews prospered for a long time in some countries, free of "elimination," because they were the entrepreneurs. In WWII the Hungarians were among the Axis who could not keep the economy going without Jews.
    Only after the Germans installed a government of the Hungarian Nazis
    ("the Arrow Cross") in 1944 did the elimination of Jews really get underway, IIRC.

    For sure there was a reason for that.

    Until you are sure of the reason, there is no cause for you to play "monkey see, monkey do."
    When you are sure, perhaps you won't join it.


    In democracy (as I am seeing it), he who does things to harm
    majority, he should be treated as a pest. Isn't this the very
    definition of the word "pest"?

    The majority can be tragically wrong sometimes.

    "A pest is any animal or plant harmful to humans or human
    concerns."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pest_(organism)
    I was always a minority, I was always different. I even
    declared myself as a minority, while my both parents are Croats, at
    one time I declared myself an American, and later, an Italian.
    But, whatever I do, I am doing it for the benefit of the
    majority, otherwise, why would they tolerate me?

    You are being very simplistic here. Need I tell you why?

    After all, I am
    shitting onto their world, it is me who is not to standards, who is
    wrong, not them, it is their world, one should have respect for that.

    Here in America, there are all kinds of people, with none in the majority any more.
    It's a very much more heterogeneous society than Croatia, or Hungary.


    Germany does much better without Jews than with Jews. Jews
    without Germans are worse than Germans without Jews. Yet, when Jews
    were in Germany, it is Jews who were better. They were better than
    Germans in German country, yet, if those two compete in their own
    countries, it is Germans that are better.

    I'm not following this at all. Are you sure you thought about it before you typed it out?

    There is a flow (I hope this is the right word, like "fault")
    in a system which allows parasites to exploit the host. This is a
    natural thing, parasites in nature also exploit system faults. Jews
    know about that, and they exploit it shamelessly wherever they can.
    The very religion, which doesn't take in new believers,

    Zoroastrianism is another such religion, and I suspect there are many others.

    tells you that this is a minority that wants to exploit the majority.

    "tells you" is ambiguous. I doubt that you'll find evidence that Zoroastrians want to exploit the majority. What makes you think Jews do?

    Things like that shouldn't be allowed.

    I think you are under the spell of the extreme emphasis Communists put on the word "exploit."
    I "exploit" supermarkets whenever I buy only things that are on sale below cost. I "exploit" the
    rain that falls from the sky and waters my garden for me.

    Holy shit! He's a Nazi??

    It is Jews who should apologize to others, for everything they did to
    others in the past.

    Who is "they"? their ancestors? Should descendants who have done no wrong
    apologize for having survived the Holocaust?

    Regarding Nazi, isn't the definition of Nazism that Germans are better
    than the rest?

    No, Aryans. At least some of them, like the Croats who collaborated with the Nazis.
    On the other hand, Slavs further east and north were treated abominably.

    In that regard I am not a Nazi.


    This is what Wikipedia says:
    "Nazism is a form of fascism, with disdain for liberal democracy and
    the parliamentary system. It incorporates fervent antisemitism, anti-communism, scientific racism, and the use of eugenics into its creed.... ...Nazism subscribed to pseudo-scientific theories of a racial hierarchy and social Darwinism, identifying the Germans as a part of
    what the Nazis regarded as an Aryan or Nordic master race. It aimed to overcome social divisions and create a homogeneous German society based
    on racial purity which represented a people's community
    (Volksgemeinschaft). The Nazis aimed to unite all Germans living in historically German territory, as well as gain additional lands for
    German expansion under the doctrine of Lebensraum and exclude those who
    they deemed either Community Aliens or "inferior" races."

    I am nothing like Nazi, I cherish democracy, I am not a chauvinist, I
    don't aim to overcome social divisions, I don't aim to unite whole
    nations, and I don't think that Jews are "inferior race". I think that
    Jews (and other parasites) are dangerous, but not "inferior race".
    Nazism do incorporate antisemitism, but antisemitism isn't Nazism. I
    am not against Semites, but I am against Jews,

    You are being too literal. The usual understanding of "antisemitism" is being against Jews.

    and against communists. I
    am against *anybody* who wants to harm the majority.

    "harm the majority" -- individuals like you and me are incapable of harming more
    than a small handful of people. You need to get specific on how you think Jews as a whole are harming the majority and not just some identifiable minority.


    I think I've said all I want to about this topic this week. I'd rather talk about
    vaccination for a while -- Hemidactylus and I have made some progress on
    this subject and I'd like to keep on making it.


    Peter Nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Thu Sep 9 03:16:43 2021
    On 8.9.2021. 20:46, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 6:26:43 AM UTC-4, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    [snip]

    To Mario:
    Is that what you are really afraid of, that an anti-Covid-2 vaccine is more likely
    to hurt you, and to hurt you worse, than an invasion of SARS-CoV-2 viruses >>> that your immune system hasn't got any antibodies for?

    Here’s a great article debunking one of the anti-vax myths— the one about
    COVID vaccines altering DNA:


    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy >>
    It would take jumping hurdles of reverse transcription, access to the
    nucleus, and integration for which the mRNA vaccines lack the tools.

    This will scotch the altered DNA myth, but not kill it. Or kill it and not drive a stake through its heart [pick your metaphor].
    More is needed to drive a stake through its heart.

    There may indeed be some some reverse transcriptase floating around,
    either from a retrovirus (e. g., HIV) infecting the same cell, or the body's own reverse transcriptase
    [something whose existence I disbelieved until this summer] and perhaps it could produce DNA
    that codes for the mRNA. At this point, the natural question arises: what's to stop
    that DNA from being transcribed right in the cytoplasm to form more mRNA, to be reverse transcribed... in an endless feedback loop? The article doesn't mention this question.

    Fortunately, there are two answers. First, transcription takes place in the nucleus.
    And second, transcription doesn't get initiated unless the DNA has a somewhat long recognition sequence of nucleotides in the right place. And the mRNA lacks
    the complementary sequence. It does have the much shorter recognition sequence
    to initiate translation into spike protein, but that won't initiate transcription.


    There is another toxic bit of scaremongering that might fool some people
    into thinking the first answer can be circumvented. And that is that
    "the vaccine alters the working of your mitochondria." This slogan
    has gone viral without any explanation of what the alleged alteration
    is or how it is caused.

    Worst case scenario would be if the reverse-transcribed DNA could get
    into your mitochondria, which may not have the safeguards of the nucleus. Whether this is possible or not, I cannot answer myself [and neither does the linked article].

    However, I maintain that the second answer -- lack of a recognition sequence --
    is enough to drive a stake through the heart of the myth.


    Technically immunocytes have the capacity to alter their own DNA. Part of
    this is shuffling of antibody encoding genes. But there is another process >> known as hypermutation. If COVID infection or vaccination response gets to >> that point, that’s a case of indirect DNA alteration, but not confined to >> COVID and is a good thing as it diversifies the potential response to
    pathogens.

    As usual, you are so fond of glibness that you don't spell out the relevance, if any, to possible damage caused by the mRNA. Do you know some reasons
    why that worst case scenario cannot come to pass?

    If not, perhaps others do. Hemi, see if you can find someone in talk.origins who has the
    background knowledge to drive a second stake through the heart of the myth. In this high-stakes debate, overkill is a virtue.

    This is about in tune of what I am saying.
    We know almost everything about combustion engine, about how to make
    chassis for a car, everything about car, yet, our gas was full with led.
    On the other hand, we don't know almost anything about what is going
    on in our organism when it fights viruses. This is not a game, all this
    playing and experimenting can extinct us. Everybody is so greedy for
    success, nobody is cautious at all, in that greed.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Thu Sep 9 04:48:49 2021
    On 9.9.2021. 3:24, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 9:20:57 AM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 8.9.2021. 15:06, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/8/21 6:01 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 8.9.2021. 12:02, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Except in the most obvious cases, [biologists] know better than to try and
    judge that some trait
    is more fit than another. A great deal depends on the environment, >>>>>> which is too unpredictable.
    In the last ice age there were gray kangaroos ten feet tall,
    because the environment favored large size; today the same species only has six
    foot tall kangaroos, because that is what the environment favors.

    The Nazis were engaged in a dubious form of artificial selection or
    animal
    husbandry in their Master Race schema. But what they were doing wasn’t >>>>> entirely eugenics. They pivoted to a hygiene model treating certain
    ethnicities as socially detrimental pathogens needing elimination
    from the
    body politic. That may be an important distinction.

    I don't know much about what you are writing, but my belief
    also is that certain ethnicities (or groups, or types, like
    psychopaths) should be eliminated as a form of hygiene.

    Using whose criteria? Why do you latch onto Jews right away?
    What have they done to you?

    Based on the criteria of the majority. Even if I am not part of that
    majority, and even if this "hygiene" applies on me.
    Regarding Jews, aren't they the most notorious example? I mean, everybody knows everything about Jews. I could mention other examples,
    but then I would need to explain much more.
    Regarding me and Jews. I grew up in richer neighborhood, and one of
    other two kids in my street is a Jew. So, we were friends from since we
    were kids, and we were always in good relationship (and yes, he was, and
    still is, extremely rich).
    The other thing that I know is from history. I know that there were
    few percentages of Jews in Zagreb, but they were holding 85 % of all the investments in Zagreb. Being a guy who is predominantly considered about justice, I see great injustice in this. I am wandering what views on
    justice have people who don't care about such an imbalance?

    After all, Jews were treated like that since Jews exist.

    Only by some peoples. The Muslims only sporadically did that.
    At other times they were the tolerant ones, treating Jews as "People of the Book".

    Leaving old history behind for one line: do you know what the attitude of the Taliban is towards Jews? I don't.

    I don't either.

    Jews prospered for a long time in some countries, free of "elimination," because they were the entrepreneurs. In WWII the Hungarians were among the Axis
    who could not keep the economy going without Jews.
    Only after the Germans installed a government of the Hungarian Nazis
    ("the Arrow Cross") in 1944 did the elimination of Jews really get underway, IIRC.

    For sure there was a reason for that.

    Until you are sure of the reason, there is no cause for you to play "monkey see, monkey do."
    When you are sure, perhaps you won't join it.

    I don't have to be sure about the reasons, and I don't act upon other
    people's reasons. I have my reasons.
    But, isn't it significant, never-the-less?

    In democracy (as I am seeing it), he who does things to harm
    majority, he should be treated as a pest. Isn't this the very
    definition of the word "pest"?

    The majority can be tragically wrong sometimes.

    Oh, definitely. But, they have "the right" to be whatever they want to
    be. In other words, they are *always right*, majority is *never* wrong.
    Now, you are the one who is imposing *your* religious believes onto
    others. And you don't have any right to do so.

    "A pest is any animal or plant harmful to humans or human
    concerns."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pest_(organism)
    I was always a minority, I was always different. I even
    declared myself as a minority, while my both parents are Croats, at
    one time I declared myself an American, and later, an Italian.
    But, whatever I do, I am doing it for the benefit of the
    majority, otherwise, why would they tolerate me?

    You are being very simplistic here. Need I tell you why?

    I am always pretty simplistic.

    After all, I am
    shitting onto their world, it is me who is not to standards, who is
    wrong, not them, it is their world, one should have respect for that.

    Here in America, there are all kinds of people, with none in the majority any more.
    It's a very much more heterogeneous society than Croatia, or Hungary.

    Yes, I am aware of that. America is, never-the-less, nothing like
    Bosnia, or Afghanistan, for example. Do you really want it to be like
    Bosnia, or Afghanistan, one day?

    Germany does much better without Jews than with Jews. Jews
    without Germans are worse than Germans without Jews. Yet, when Jews
    were in Germany, it is Jews who were better. They were better than
    Germans in German country, yet, if those two compete in their own
    countries, it is Germans that are better.

    I'm not following this at all. Are you sure you thought about it before you typed it out?

    Why not? What's wrong with this?

    There is a flow (I hope this is the right word, like "fault")
    in a system which allows parasites to exploit the host. This is a
    natural thing, parasites in nature also exploit system faults. Jews
    know about that, and they exploit it shamelessly wherever they can.
    The very religion, which doesn't take in new believers,

    Zoroastrianism is another such religion, and I suspect there are many others.

    tells you that this is a minority that wants to exploit the majority.

    "tells you" is ambiguous. I doubt that you'll find evidence that Zoroastrians want to exploit the majority. What makes you think Jews do?

    It is obvious, in my eyes.

    Things like that shouldn't be allowed.

    I think you are under the spell of the extreme emphasis Communists put on the word "exploit."
    I "exploit" supermarkets whenever I buy only things that are on sale below cost. I "exploit" the
    rain that falls from the sky and waters my garden for me.

    Yes. And parasites exploit their hosts. If I got the word right. If
    not, please put the right word here, I would really like to know the
    right word. Thanks.

    Holy shit! He's a Nazi??

    It is Jews who should apologize to others, for everything they did to
    others in the past.

    Who is "they"? their ancestors? Should descendants who have done no wrong
    apologize for having survived the Holocaust?

    When they lived the way of life they lived, they should count on that
    there will be a Holocaust at the end of that journey. If they didn't
    count, well, then they are plain stupid. As everybody can see, Holocaust
    did happen, and they should expect it. So, nobody has to apologize for
    the Holocaust. And Jews, if they don't want to live in piece with other nations, they can simply continue to live the way they are living, it is
    their problem, not mine.
    I must remind you that the West at that time didn't care what is
    happening to Jews, either. They knew exactly what is happening, but
    they, simply, didn't care. There was also one movie about that, about
    the ship full with Jews, and no western country wanted to accept those refugees. They didn't care. And now you expect me to care? Why would I? Because, *today*, it suits your agenda?

    Regarding Nazi, isn't the definition of Nazism that Germans are better
    than the rest?

    No, Aryans. At least some of them, like the Croats who collaborated with the Nazis.
    On the other hand, Slavs further east and north were treated abominably.

    In that regard I am not a Nazi.


    This is what Wikipedia says:
    "Nazism is a form of fascism, with disdain for liberal democracy and
    the parliamentary system. It incorporates fervent antisemitism,
    anti-communism, scientific racism, and the use of eugenics into its
    creed.... ...Nazism subscribed to pseudo-scientific theories of a racial
    hierarchy and social Darwinism, identifying the Germans as a part of
    what the Nazis regarded as an Aryan or Nordic master race. It aimed to
    overcome social divisions and create a homogeneous German society based
    on racial purity which represented a people's community
    (Volksgemeinschaft). The Nazis aimed to unite all Germans living in
    historically German territory, as well as gain additional lands for
    German expansion under the doctrine of Lebensraum and exclude those who
    they deemed either Community Aliens or "inferior" races."

    I am nothing like Nazi, I cherish democracy, I am not a chauvinist, I
    don't aim to overcome social divisions, I don't aim to unite whole
    nations, and I don't think that Jews are "inferior race". I think that
    Jews (and other parasites) are dangerous, but not "inferior race".
    Nazism do incorporate antisemitism, but antisemitism isn't Nazism. I
    am not against Semites, but I am against Jews,

    You are being too literal. The usual understanding of "antisemitism" is being against Jews.

    Yes, but I cannot accept this. I cannot call myself anti-Semite,
    because I am not. Usually I have nothing against established terms, but
    this one is plainly wrong.

    and against communists. I
    am against *anybody* who wants to harm the majority.

    "harm the majority" -- individuals like you and me are incapable of harming more
    than a small handful of people. You need to get specific on how you think Jews
    as a whole are harming the majority and not just some identifiable minority.

    It doesn't matter if they are individuals, or organized individuals.
    Psychopaths are doing harm (by definition), societies should get rid of
    them.
    You are imposing a lot onto me how I have to do this, or how I have to
    do that. No, I don't have to do anything. And, after all, this
    particular decision isn't on me, it is on majority. I can disagree with
    what the majority does. I am talking about, that majority has *the
    right* to do whatever it wants.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Thu Sep 9 07:50:54 2021
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 10:48:50 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 9.9.2021. 3:24, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 9:20:57 AM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 8.9.2021. 15:06, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/8/21 6:01 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 8.9.2021. 12:02, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Except in the most obvious cases, [biologists] know better than to try and
    judge that some trait
    is more fit than another. A great deal depends on the environment, >>>>>> which is too unpredictable.
    In the last ice age there were gray kangaroos ten feet tall,
    because the environment favored large size; today the same species only has six
    foot tall kangaroos, because that is what the environment favors. >>>>>>
    The Nazis were engaged in a dubious form of artificial selection or >>>>> animal
    husbandry in their Master Race schema. But what they were doing wasn’t
    entirely eugenics. They pivoted to a hygiene model treating certain >>>>> ethnicities as socially detrimental pathogens needing elimination >>>>> from the
    body politic. That may be an important distinction.

    I don't know much about what you are writing, but my belief
    also is that certain ethnicities (or groups, or types, like
    psychopaths) should be eliminated as a form of hygiene.

    Using whose criteria? Why do you latch onto Jews right away?
    What have they done to you?

    Based on the criteria of the majority. Even if I am not part of that majority, and even if this "hygiene" applies on me.
    Regarding Jews, aren't they the most notorious example? I mean,
    everybody knows everything about Jews.

    Maybe in your part of Croatia [although I doubt it] but certainly
    not in the USA. The endless harping on the Holocaust -- not that I
    mind most of it, "Schindler's List" was jarring even to me -- drowns out anything negative people here say in the media about Jews.


    I could mention other examples,
    but then I would need to explain much more.
    Regarding me and Jews. I grew up in richer neighborhood, and one of
    other two kids in my street is a Jew. So, we were friends from since we
    were kids, and we were always in good relationship (and yes, he was, and still is, extremely rich).
    The other thing that I know is from history. I know that there were
    few percentages of Jews in Zagreb, but they were holding 85 % of all the investments in Zagreb.

    They know a lot about investing; most people do not. There is nothing said
    in our elementary or secondary schools about investing, except savings accounts,
    and those are almost worthless these days. They don't even teach you what stocks are for: dividends. Everyone seems to be focused on speculation,
    buying low and selling high.


    Being a guy who is predominantly considered about
    justice, I see great injustice in this.

    If you think that is injustice, you really ought to read Milovan Djilas's _Land_Without_Justice, about REAL injustices that pervaded his native Montenegro. It was as bad as the "justice" meted out by the Mafia,
    and it was built into the very character of the people.

    I am wandering what views on
    justice have people who don't care about such an imbalance?

    Financial imbalances have nothing to do with justice, unless the
    riches were unjustly obtained.

    Do you think Bill Gates deserves to be lynched just because he is so much
    more wealthy than almost everyone on earth?

    After all, Jews were treated like that since Jews exist.

    Only by some peoples. The Muslims only sporadically did that.
    At other times they were the tolerant ones, treating Jews as "People of the Book".

    Leaving old history behind for one line: do you know what the attitude of the Taliban is towards Jews? I don't.

    I don't either.

    I learned a lot about that yesterday, after writing the above. The bottom line is here:
    the Jews almost all left Afghanistan, after once numbering over 40,000, first to emigrate to Israel after 1948,
    then almost all of them after the Soviet involvement in 1979. The other day the last Jew in Afghanistan left:

    https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/afghanistans-jew-leaves-taliban-takeover-79893286

    As for the Taliban, this is what the article says close to the end:
    "The Taliban, like other Islamic militant groups, are hostile to Israel but tolerated the country's miniscule Jewish community during their previous reign. "
    [Incidentally, the correct spelling is "minuscule".]
    By the way, that "last Jew" reminds me of most of the Montenegrins in Djilas's book.
    Not someone I'd like to meet.


    Jews prospered for a long time in some countries, free of "elimination," because they were the entrepreneurs. In WWII the Hungarians were among the Axis
    who could not keep the economy going without Jews.
    Only after the Germans installed a government of the Hungarian Nazis
    ("the Arrow Cross") in 1944 did the elimination of Jews really get underway, IIRC.

    For sure there was a reason for that.

    Until you are sure of the reason, there is no cause for you to play "monkey see, monkey do."
    When you are sure, perhaps you won't join it.

    I don't have to be sure about the reasons, and I don't act upon other people's reasons. I have my reasons.
    But, isn't it significant, never-the-less?

    Not necessarily, especially since you aren't telling me about your reasons even now.

    In democracy (as I am seeing it), he who does things to harm
    majority, he should be treated as a pest. Isn't this the very
    definition of the word "pest"?

    The majority can be tragically wrong sometimes.

    One example: the centuries-long mismanagement of the earth's resources.
    Like I said a little over an hour ago on
    "Humans can do math, hence, humans are intelligent animals",
    I foresee the collapse of our civilization by 2300 unless drastic changes are made.


    Oh, definitely. But, they have "the right" to be whatever they want to
    be. In other words, they are *always right*, majority is *never* wrong.

    Aren't you being resentful about the way things are here? You seem
    to be complaining about the morality of "Might makes right." That is
    the morality of the majority in talk.origins, as far as what they do there goes,
    and that is one reason I fight against it.


    Now, you are the one who is imposing *your* religious believes onto
    others. And you don't have any right to do so.

    Not I. Who does "you" refer to?

    "A pest is any animal or plant harmful to humans or human
    concerns."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pest_(organism)
    I was always a minority, I was always different. I even
    declared myself as a minority, while my both parents are Croats, at >>>> one time I declared myself an American, and later, an Italian.
    But, whatever I do, I am doing it for the benefit of the
    majority, otherwise, why would they tolerate me?

    You are being very simplistic here. Need I tell you why?
    I am always pretty simplistic.

    In this case, it's sad that people around you are so intolerant,
    that you can't feel free to do things that don't do what the majority
    thinks will benefit them.


    After all, I am
    shitting onto their world, it is me who is not to standards, who is >>>> wrong, not them, it is their world, one should have respect for that.

    Here in America, there are all kinds of people, with none in the majority any more.
    It's a very much more heterogeneous society than Croatia, or Hungary.

    Yes, I am aware of that. America is, never-the-less, nothing like
    Bosnia, or Afghanistan, for example. Do you really want it to be like Bosnia, or Afghanistan, one day?

    Of course not. And the way you write about it, I wouldn't want it to be like Croatia either.

    But the point is, here in America most people aren't hostile enough towards Jews
    to say the sorts of things you say below.


    Germany does much better without Jews than with Jews. Jews
    without Germans are worse than Germans without Jews. Yet, when Jews >>>> were in Germany, it is Jews who were better. They were better than
    Germans in German country, yet, if those two compete in their own
    countries, it is Germans that are better.

    I'm not following this at all. Are you sure you thought about it before you typed it out?
    Why not? What's wrong with this?

    It's hopelessly vague. You don't explain any of your statements.


    There is a flow (I hope this is the right word, like "fault")
    in a system which allows parasites to exploit the host. This is a
    natural thing, parasites in nature also exploit system faults. Jews >>>> know about that, and they exploit it shamelessly wherever they can. >>>> The very religion, which doesn't take in new believers,

    Zoroastrianism is another such religion, and I suspect there are many others.

    tells you that this is a minority that wants to exploit the majority.

    "tells you" is ambiguous. I doubt that you'll find evidence that Zoroastrians
    want to exploit the majority. What makes you think Jews do?

    It is obvious, in my eyes.

    But you can't put it into words?


    Things like that shouldn't be allowed.

    I think you are under the spell of the extreme emphasis Communists put on the word "exploit."
    I "exploit" supermarkets whenever I buy only things that are on sale below cost. I "exploit" the
    rain that falls from the sky and waters my garden for me.
    Yes. And parasites exploit their hosts. If I got the word right. If
    not, please put the right word here, I would really like to know the
    right word. Thanks.

    You don't explain enough for me to figure out what the right word might be.


    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until evening,
    to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either subject.


    Peter Nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Thu Sep 9 08:59:15 2021
    On 9/9/21 7:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until evening, to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either subject.

    I have made the choice not to engage further with a rabid anti-semite.
    And, apparently, a rabid anti-various other unstated groups, who
    proposes extermination as a general solution. You have to draw the line somewhere.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Thu Sep 9 18:25:31 2021
    On 9.9.2021. 17:59, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 7:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until
    evening,
    to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about
    either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either
    subject.

    I have made the choice not to engage further with a rabid anti-semite.
    And, apparently, a rabid anti-various other unstated groups, who
    proposes extermination as a general solution. You have to draw the line somewhere.

    See Peter. This happened while I was writing my reply to you (yes, I
    am slow in writing).

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From *Hemidactylus*@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Thu Sep 9 11:35:12 2021
    Peter Nyikos <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:

    [snip]

    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until evening, to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either subject.

    I don’t reply to him because of previous experience. After his recent outbursts about Jews I don’t think engaging him does any good (ditto on vaccines).

    Not sure why you felt a need to say what you did about Harshman and I
    giving a damn about Jews. A bit uncalled for really.

    Do you have impulsivity issues?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Thu Sep 9 18:23:49 2021
    On 9.9.2021. 16:50, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 10:48:50 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 9.9.2021. 3:24, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 9:20:57 AM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 8.9.2021. 15:06, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/8/21 6:01 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 8.9.2021. 12:02, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Except in the most obvious cases, [biologists] know better than to try and
    judge that some trait
    is more fit than another. A great deal depends on the environment, >>>>>>>> which is too unpredictable.
    In the last ice age there were gray kangaroos ten feet tall,
    because the environment favored large size; today the same species only has six
    foot tall kangaroos, because that is what the environment favors. >>>>>>>>
    The Nazis were engaged in a dubious form of artificial selection or >>>>>>> animal
    husbandry in their Master Race schema. But what they were doing wasn’t
    entirely eugenics. They pivoted to a hygiene model treating certain >>>>>>> ethnicities as socially detrimental pathogens needing elimination >>>>>>> from the
    body politic. That may be an important distinction.

    I don't know much about what you are writing, but my belief
    also is that certain ethnicities (or groups, or types, like
    psychopaths) should be eliminated as a form of hygiene.

    Using whose criteria? Why do you latch onto Jews right away?
    What have they done to you?

    Based on the criteria of the majority. Even if I am not part of that
    majority, and even if this "hygiene" applies on me.
    Regarding Jews, aren't they the most notorious example? I mean,
    everybody knows everything about Jews.

    Maybe in your part of Croatia [although I doubt it] but certainly
    not in the USA. The endless harping on the Holocaust -- not that I
    mind most of it, "Schindler's List" was jarring even to me -- drowns out anything negative people here say in the media about Jews.

    Well, it is just the same here, in Croatia. I would be called a Nazi
    just the same in Croatia, like I am in this news group.
    But, it is not the first time for me, first, to try to see things up
    to the bottom, and second, to not be in tune with the rest. I do this
    all the time. I've got used to it a long time ago, lol.

    I could mention other examples,
    but then I would need to explain much more.
    Regarding me and Jews. I grew up in richer neighborhood, and one of
    other two kids in my street is a Jew. So, we were friends from since we
    were kids, and we were always in good relationship (and yes, he was, and
    still is, extremely rich).
    The other thing that I know is from history. I know that there were
    few percentages of Jews in Zagreb, but they were holding 85 % of all the
    investments in Zagreb.

    They know a lot about investing; most people do not. There is nothing said
    in our elementary or secondary schools about investing, except savings accounts,
    and those are almost worthless these days. They don't even teach you what stocks are for: dividends. Everyone seems to be focused on speculation, buying low and selling high.

    You can find just any excuse. The fact is, they don't expand their
    religion, for the sake of exploiting the hosts. They are organized in
    that way. If they would expand their religion, this mean business
    wouldn't work.

    Being a guy who is predominantly considered about
    justice, I see great injustice in this.

    If you think that is injustice, you really ought to read Milovan Djilas's _Land_Without_Justice, about REAL injustices that pervaded his native Montenegro. It was as bad as the "justice" meted out by the Mafia,
    and it was built into the very character of the people.

    I am wandering what views on
    justice have people who don't care about such an imbalance?

    Financial imbalances have nothing to do with justice, unless the
    riches were unjustly obtained.

    Do you think Bill Gates deserves to be lynched just because he is so much more wealthy than almost everyone on earth?

    Do you think that "robber barons" shouldn't be dealt with? Monopoly is
    unjust. If you have two brothers among 10 people, those two are twice as
    strong as any of the other 8. Of course they will prevail. Jews prevail
    because they are organized. They prevail on their behalf, and to the
    harm of the host. Now, if those 2 brothers do this to the other 8, what
    should other 8 do? 8 people should watch how those 2 exploit them? Why?
    Just because those are 2, and this 8 are single? This 8 can do to those
    2 whatever they think they should, those 2 deserved it. It is not their
    place in that company, because they are so unfriendly, and so mean,
    towards the others.
    The business of Bill Gates enriches the American community. The business of Jews make others poor. Somebody who would make Americans
    poor wouldn't be allowed to do his business in America, I presume.
    Including Jews.
    It isn't the problem if Jews are rich. The problem is that they are
    behaving just like parasites are behaving. They don't care the slightest
    about the host, and now you are expecting that host should care about them.

    After all, Jews were treated like that since Jews exist.

    Only by some peoples. The Muslims only sporadically did that.
    At other times they were the tolerant ones, treating Jews as "People of the Book".

    Leaving old history behind for one line: do you know what the attitude of the Taliban is towards Jews? I don't.

    I don't either.

    I learned a lot about that yesterday, after writing the above. The bottom line is here:
    the Jews almost all left Afghanistan, after once numbering over 40,000, first to emigrate to Israel after 1948,
    then almost all of them after the Soviet involvement in 1979. The other day the last Jew in Afghanistan left:

    https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/afghanistans-jew-leaves-taliban-takeover-79893286

    As for the Taliban, this is what the article says close to the end:
    "The Taliban, like other Islamic militant groups, are hostile to Israel but tolerated the country's miniscule Jewish community during their previous reign."
    [Incidentally, the correct spelling is "minuscule".]
    By the way, that "last Jew" reminds me of most of the Montenegrins in Djilas's book.
    Not someone I'd like to meet.

    I know nothing about Djilas and that book, but, if you are interested,
    right now you have very interesting things going on in Montenegro.
    Things that very much resemble what was going on in Balkans 30 years
    ago. Actually, very soon a lot of interesting things will be going on
    all over the Globe, including the Balkans. Actually, it already began,
    as you can see.

    Jews prospered for a long time in some countries, free of "elimination," >>> because they were the entrepreneurs. In WWII the Hungarians were among the Axis
    who could not keep the economy going without Jews.
    Only after the Germans installed a government of the Hungarian Nazis
    ("the Arrow Cross") in 1944 did the elimination of Jews really get underway, IIRC.

    For sure there was a reason for that.

    Until you are sure of the reason, there is no cause for you to play "monkey see, monkey do."
    When you are sure, perhaps you won't join it.

    I don't have to be sure about the reasons, and I don't act upon other
    people's reasons. I have my reasons.
    But, isn't it significant, never-the-less?

    Not necessarily, especially since you aren't telling me about your reasons even now.

    Hm, I thought that you should know, since it is so obvious. Read the
    story about 2 brothers in a company of 10 people, above.

    In democracy (as I am seeing it), he who does things to harm
    majority, he should be treated as a pest. Isn't this the very
    definition of the word "pest"?

    The majority can be tragically wrong sometimes.

    One example: the centuries-long mismanagement of the earth's resources.
    Like I said a little over an hour ago on
    "Humans can do math, hence, humans are intelligent animals",
    I foresee the collapse of our civilization by 2300 unless drastic changes are made.

    Of course the majority can be wrong. And, what will you do? Kill the
    majority? The majority has the right to be wrong.

    Oh, definitely. But, they have "the right" to be whatever they want to
    be. In other words, they are *always right*, majority is *never* wrong.

    Aren't you being resentful about the way things are here? You seem
    to be complaining about the morality of "Might makes right." That is
    the morality of the majority in talk.origins, as far as what they do there goes,
    and that is one reason I fight against it.

    I am talking about who has the right. If people have equal rights,
    then the majority has the right to decide. You seem to have stance that
    some people are more worthy than the others. Because they are "smarter",
    or because they have some religious believes. In my eyes, everybody has
    equal rights. If rights clash, then the majority has the right to
    decide. This is called "democracy".

    Now, you are the one who is imposing *your* religious believes onto
    others. And you don't have any right to do so.

    Not I. Who does "you" refer to?

    Yes, you. See above. You are imposing your ideas onto others. It
    doesn't matter what is the idea, the majority has the right to push its
    agenda, not you (because your ideas are "better", or whatever).

    "A pest is any animal or plant harmful to humans or human
    concerns."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pest_(organism)
    I was always a minority, I was always different. I even
    declared myself as a minority, while my both parents are Croats, at >>>>>> one time I declared myself an American, and later, an Italian.
    But, whatever I do, I am doing it for the benefit of the
    majority, otherwise, why would they tolerate me?

    You are being very simplistic here. Need I tell you why?
    I am always pretty simplistic.

    In this case, it's sad that people around you are so intolerant,
    that you can't feel free to do things that don't do what the majority
    thinks will benefit them.

    Well, its the reality of life, and, for sure, this isn't the only
    "sad" thing in my life. I am living among this majority, I cannot live
    alone.
    But, you are penduluming the wight onto the "benefit" side. The majority shouldn't care if I am not benefiting to it. But, for sure it
    should care if I am doing harm to it. If they are smart.

    After all, I am
    shitting onto their world, it is me who is not to standards, who is >>>>>> wrong, not them, it is their world, one should have respect for that. >>>
    Here in America, there are all kinds of people, with none in the majority any more.
    It's a very much more heterogeneous society than Croatia, or Hungary.

    Yes, I am aware of that. America is, never-the-less, nothing like
    Bosnia, or Afghanistan, for example. Do you really want it to be like
    Bosnia, or Afghanistan, one day?

    Of course not. And the way you write about it, I wouldn't want it to be like Croatia either.

    But the point is, here in America most people aren't hostile enough towards Jews
    to say the sorts of things you say below.

    That's alright. Germans were hostile enough. That's also alright.

    Germany does much better without Jews than with Jews. Jews
    without Germans are worse than Germans without Jews. Yet, when Jews >>>>>> were in Germany, it is Jews who were better. They were better than >>>>>> Germans in German country, yet, if those two compete in their own
    countries, it is Germans that are better.

    I'm not following this at all. Are you sure you thought about it before you typed it out?
    Why not? What's wrong with this?

    It's hopelessly vague. You don't explain any of your statements.

    But, I don't have to. This is my opinion, I got it somehow, you don't
    respect it, its alright. You don't get opinions by reading comic books
    for kids, you get opinions by your life experience.
    Hitler got to power when Germany was in crisis. Germans accused Jews
    for a big part in that crisis, and they were not too far off from the truth.
    I mean, the Axis countries (Germany, Italy, Japan) were the most
    progressive countries of that time. I don't like dictatorships, but I
    cannot go around the truth, nor I would blindfold myself. Later, Japan
    and Germany destroyed the car industry in USA. For various reasons, but
    that's also the fact.

    There is a flow (I hope this is the right word, like "fault")
    in a system which allows parasites to exploit the host. This is a
    natural thing, parasites in nature also exploit system faults. Jews >>>>>> know about that, and they exploit it shamelessly wherever they can. >>>>>> The very religion, which doesn't take in new believers,

    Zoroastrianism is another such religion, and I suspect there are many others.

    tells you that this is a minority that wants to exploit the majority. >>>
    "tells you" is ambiguous. I doubt that you'll find evidence that Zoroastrians
    want to exploit the majority. What makes you think Jews do?

    It is obvious, in my eyes.

    But you can't put it into words?


    Things like that shouldn't be allowed.

    I think you are under the spell of the extreme emphasis Communists put on the word "exploit."
    I "exploit" supermarkets whenever I buy only things that are on sale below cost. I "exploit" the
    rain that falls from the sky and waters my garden for me.
    Yes. And parasites exploit their hosts. If I got the word right. If
    not, please put the right word here, I would really like to know the
    right word. Thanks.

    You don't explain enough for me to figure out what the right word might be.

    I just asked for what parasites are doing to their hosts. You should
    know the English word, since we are in biology news group.

    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until evening, to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either subject.

    Oh, as soon as somebody says anything against Jews, they just shut
    down and turn away. They are on that level. They are trained to behave
    like that, lol.
    Also, you will notice that Jews never discuss themselves. They will
    also take offense (if this is the right word), turn around and go. They
    know that they will lose in a discussion, so that way they make the
    opponent a loser, lol.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From erik simpson@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 9 12:10:48 2021
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 9:35:18 AM UTC-7, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    [snip]

    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until evening,
    to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either subject.

    I don’t reply to him because of previous experience. After his recent outbursts about Jews I don’t think engaging him does any good (ditto on vaccines).

    Not sure why you felt a need to say what you did about Harshman and I
    giving a damn about Jews. A bit uncalled for really.

    Do you have impulsivity issues?

    There are so many unpleasant aspects tp Mario's ramblings that it isn't obvious why
    Peter is so intrigued with him. This isn't to say that Mario is personally reprehensible, but
    he certainly seems to have picked up a bit of bigoted garbage that has floated around in
    eastern Europe for at least hundreds of years. (This also isn't to say that similar bigoted garbage
    hasn't floated around western Europe and pretty much everywhere else, but the tone of the
    garbage is often regionally characteristic.) I am not familiar with Hungarian bigotry although
    i'm sure it's a thing, or whether Peter has sensed something about Mario's ranting that rings
    some bell. I am sure that Peter's insults would continue whether you gave a damn about Jews or not.
    That said, I'm through with this thread as it's going nowhere interesting.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to erik simpson on Thu Sep 9 21:21:41 2021
    On 9.9.2021. 21:10, erik simpson wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 9:35:18 AM UTC-7, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    [snip]

    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until evening,
    to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either subject.

    I don’t reply to him because of previous experience. After his recent
    outbursts about Jews I don’t think engaging him does any good (ditto on
    vaccines).

    Not sure why you felt a need to say what you did about Harshman and I
    giving a damn about Jews. A bit uncalled for really.

    Do you have impulsivity issues?

    There are so many unpleasant aspects tp Mario's ramblings that it isn't obvious why
    Peter is so intrigued with him. This isn't to say that Mario is personally reprehensible, but
    he certainly seems to have picked up a bit of bigoted garbage that has floated around in
    eastern Europe for at least hundreds of years. (This also isn't to say that similar bigoted garbage
    hasn't floated around western Europe and pretty much everywhere else, but the tone of the
    garbage is often regionally characteristic.) I am not familiar with Hungarian bigotry although
    i'm sure it's a thing, or whether Peter has sensed something about Mario's ranting that rings
    some bell. I am sure that Peter's insults would continue whether you gave a damn about Jews or not.
    That said, I'm through with this thread as it's going nowhere interesting.

    I would just ask you to hold your horses a bit. I am not your wrecking
    beg.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Thu Sep 9 12:16:26 2021
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 11:59:22 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 7:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until evening,
    to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either subject.

    I have made the choice not to engage further with a rabid anti-semite.
    And, apparently, a rabid anti-various other unstated groups, who
    proposes extermination as a general solution. You have to draw the line somewhere.

    How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination? Here is something in the
    article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:

    "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make anyone sick. " https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy

    What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly sick? Some other part of the
    virus that our antibodies are unable to target?


    Peter Nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Thu Sep 9 12:54:46 2021
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 12:23:50 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 9.9.2021. 16:50, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    They know a lot about investing; most people do not. There is nothing said in our elementary or secondary schools about investing, except savings accounts,
    and those are almost worthless these days. They don't even teach you what stocks are for: dividends. Everyone seems to be focused on speculation, buying low and selling high.

    You can find just any excuse. The fact is, they don't expand their
    religion, for the sake of exploiting the hosts.

    There you go, completely disregarding what I wrote about Zoroastrians.
    Small wonder: it makes this comment of yours worthless without additional evidence.


    They are organized in
    that way. If they would expand their religion, this mean business
    wouldn't work.

    Being a guy who is predominantly considered about
    justice, I see great injustice in this.

    If you think that is injustice, you really ought to read Milovan Djilas's _Land_Without_Justice, about REAL injustices that pervaded his native Montenegro. It was as bad as the "justice" meted out by the Mafia,
    and it was built into the very character of the people.

    Will you go on disregarding this? Are you planning to go on talking
    about financial imbalances being injustice despite what you wrote
    below about Bill Gates?


    I am wandering what views on
    justice have people who don't care about such an imbalance?

    Financial imbalances have nothing to do with justice, unless the
    riches were unjustly obtained.

    Do you think Bill Gates deserves to be lynched just because he is so much more wealthy than almost everyone on earth?

    Do you think that "robber barons" shouldn't be dealt with?

    No, and I believe Gates deserves to be fined at least a billion dollars
    for destroying Netscape. Not content with having taken it over, he
    made sure that thousands of urls to Netscape articles would never work any more.
    Sort of like the Romans sowing the ground of Carthage with salt after
    razing the city to the ground.

    There was a time when Netscape seemed almost synonymous with the Internet. [Roughly 1993 - 2000.] When was the last time you heard anything about it?


    Monopoly is unjust. If you have two brothers among 10 people, those two are twice as
    strong as any of the other 8. Of course they will prevail. Jews prevail because they are organized. They prevail on their behalf, and to the
    harm of the host. Now, if those 2 brothers do this to the other 8, what should other 8 do? 8 people should watch how those 2 exploit them? Why?
    Just because those are 2, and this 8 are single? This 8 can do to those
    2 whatever they think they should, those 2 deserved it. It is not their
    place in that company, because they are so unfriendly, and so mean,
    towards the others.

    Even if this fable is based on reality, it is nothing compared to what Bill Gates has done.
    The hypocrite put a measly $100,000 to a propaganda campaign to make Californians vote themselves
    a $300,000,000 increase in their taxes to support "embryonic stem cell research."
    Bill Gates could easily have footed the whole bill himself, but he was clever enough
    [you might prefer to say "Jewish enough"] to hedge his bets big-time, and his hedging
    paid off: nothing of medical value has emerged from it in a decade and a half, while "adult" [actually anything that isn't almost totipotent] stem cells have worked
    one medical triumph after another.

    The business of Bill Gates enriches the American community.

    I'd like to see you try to defend this. Microsoft is still pursuing monopoly-type
    practices, and I'm sure Bill Gates is very happy about it. And also about how so much computer related hardware, including laptops like mine, is outsourced to China.


    Enough of this for this week. Unlike Harshman, I haven't completely given up on you,
    and if you say anything sensible about what I've said just now, I'll make
    a point of replying on Monday, and maybe to some of the other things you wrote in
    the post to which I am replying now.


    Peter Nyikos

    PS I've decided to hold off until Monday with the continuation that I said I would
    hold off with "until this evening." Your attitude here requires careful thinking on how to proceed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oxyaena@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Thu Sep 9 16:43:45 2021
    On 9/9/2021 4:24 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    [snip idiocy]

    Difficult though it is for you and Harshman and Hemidactylus and Oxyaena to understand,

    Pot kettle black.

    I distinguish between knowingly engaging in despicable behavior and being the victim of believing things
    that just aren't true, for reasons rooted in one's milieu.

    This isn't to say that Mario is personally reprehensible, but
    he certainly seems to have picked up a bit of bigoted garbage that has floated around in
    eastern Europe for at least hundreds of years. (This also isn't to say that similar bigoted garbage
    hasn't floated around western Europe and pretty much everywhere else, but the tone of the
    garbage is often regionally characteristic.) I am not familiar with Hungarian bigotry although
    i'm sure it's a thing, or whether Peter has sensed something about Mario's ranting that rings
    some bell.

    I know too little about Hungarian bigotry that isn't half a century ago to comment.
    I do know a bit about "woke" bigotry that the EU is aggressively strong-arming Hungary with,
    but I'd rather not go into detail about it.

    Yeah because you're a homophobe and you support Hungary's repression of
    LGBT+ folk. That's why you don't want to go into detail about it.

    [snip idiocy]


    Peter Nyikos


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Thu Sep 9 13:30:24 2021
    On 9/9/21 12:16 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 11:59:22 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 7:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until evening,
    to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either subject.

    I have made the choice not to engage further with a rabid anti-semite.
    And, apparently, a rabid anti-various other unstated groups, who
    proposes extermination as a general solution. You have to draw the line
    somewhere.

    How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination? Here is something in the
    article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:

    "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make anyone sick."
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy

    What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly sick? Some other part of the
    virus that our antibodies are unable to target?

    What makes you sick, presumably, is all the virus replicating and lysing
    your cells to get out. Certainly not the spike protein.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to erik simpson on Thu Sep 9 13:24:19 2021
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 3:10:51 PM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 9:35:18 AM UTC-7, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    [snip]

    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until evening,
    to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either subject.

    I don’t reply to him because of previous experience. After his recent outbursts about Jews I don’t think engaging him does any good (ditto on vaccines).

    Not sure why you felt a need to say what you did about Harshman and I giving a damn about Jews. A bit uncalled for really.

    Do you have impulsivity issues?

    No, but Hemidactylus does: he disregarded the main point of what I wrote,
    which began with "enough to reply to something by either of us..."

    It looks like he is indulging in guilt by association where I am concerned, as are you, Erik:


    There are so many unpleasant aspects tp Mario's ramblings that it isn't obvious why
    Peter is so intrigued with him.

    Unlike you, he is still a largely unknown quantity to me. Did you miss my having said that
    to Harshman, or are you merely feigning having missed it?

    Since you've played the role of an ethical nihilist here these last four years, and almost a
    decade in talk.origins, I think I'd better clarify that "unknown quantity" means the difference between being morally reprehensible or merely profoundly misguided.

    Difficult though it is for you and Harshman and Hemidactylus and Oxyaena to understand,
    I distinguish between knowingly engaging in despicable behavior and being the victim of believing things
    that just aren't true, for reasons rooted in one's milieu.

    This isn't to say that Mario is personally reprehensible, but
    he certainly seems to have picked up a bit of bigoted garbage that has floated around in
    eastern Europe for at least hundreds of years. (This also isn't to say that similar bigoted garbage
    hasn't floated around western Europe and pretty much everywhere else, but the tone of the
    garbage is often regionally characteristic.) I am not familiar with Hungarian bigotry although
    i'm sure it's a thing, or whether Peter has sensed something about Mario's ranting that rings
    some bell.

    I know too little about Hungarian bigotry that isn't half a century ago to comment.
    I do know a bit about "woke" bigotry that the EU is aggressively strong-arming Hungary with,
    but I'd rather not go into detail about it.


    I am sure that Peter's insults would continue whether you gave a damn about Jews or not.

    Every time Hemidactylus does something really despicable, what you and Harshman self-servingly
    (and, as here, Hemidactylus-servingly) call "insults" [read: explanations about why it is despicable]
    will be leveled against him directly. His comments here fall short of being despicable, so this
    reply to you is all he'll see about them.

    That said, I'm through with this thread as it's going nowhere interesting.

    Yes, you find vaccination issues uninteresting, just as you find misleading comments in
    popularizations under the aegis of _Science_ and _Nature_ to be uninteresting from the
    point of view of correcting them for the benefit of the general public. Even when they
    get the main point of the research article they are popularizing wrong.


    Peter Nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oxyaena@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Thu Sep 9 16:41:12 2021
    On 9/9/2021 10:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 10:48:50 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 9.9.2021. 3:24, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 9:20:57 AM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 8.9.2021. 15:06, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/8/21 6:01 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 8.9.2021. 12:02, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Except in the most obvious cases, [biologists] know better than to try and
    judge that some trait
    is more fit than another. A great deal depends on the environment, >>>>>>>> which is too unpredictable.
    In the last ice age there were gray kangaroos ten feet tall,
    because the environment favored large size; today the same species only has six
    foot tall kangaroos, because that is what the environment favors. >>>>>>>>
    The Nazis were engaged in a dubious form of artificial selection or >>>>>>> animal
    husbandry in their Master Race schema. But what they were doing wasn’t
    entirely eugenics. They pivoted to a hygiene model treating certain >>>>>>> ethnicities as socially detrimental pathogens needing elimination >>>>>>> from the
    body politic. That may be an important distinction.

    I don't know much about what you are writing, but my belief
    also is that certain ethnicities (or groups, or types, like
    psychopaths) should be eliminated as a form of hygiene.

    Using whose criteria? Why do you latch onto Jews right away?
    What have they done to you?

    Based on the criteria of the majority. Even if I am not part of that
    majority, and even if this "hygiene" applies on me.
    Regarding Jews, aren't they the most notorious example? I mean,
    everybody knows everything about Jews.

    Maybe in your part of Croatia [although I doubt it] but certainly
    not in the USA. The endless harping on the Holocaust -- not that I
    mind most of it, "Schindler's List" was jarring even to me -- drowns out anything negative people here say in the media about Jews.

    I have to agree that the Holocaust receives a bit too much attention
    compared to other genocides and atrocities, like the Native American
    Holocaust, or the Naqba when the Zionists ethnically cleansed Palestine
    of almost all of its indigenous people.



    I could mention other examples,
    but then I would need to explain much more.
    Regarding me and Jews. I grew up in richer neighborhood, and one of
    other two kids in my street is a Jew. So, we were friends from since we
    were kids, and we were always in good relationship (and yes, he was, and
    still is, extremely rich).
    The other thing that I know is from history. I know that there were
    few percentages of Jews in Zagreb, but they were holding 85 % of all the
    investments in Zagreb.

    They know a lot about investing; most people do not. There is nothing said
    in our elementary or secondary schools about investing, except savings accounts,
    and those are almost worthless these days. They don't even teach you what stocks are for: dividends. Everyone seems to be focused on speculation, buying low and selling high.

    The reason Jewish people have the stereotype of being good at investing
    is because back in the day, they were barred from most other
    professions. The only way for a Jew to feed themselves and their family
    was often banking, so that's what they did.



    Being a guy who is predominantly considered about
    justice, I see great injustice in this.

    If you think that is injustice, you really ought to read Milovan Djilas's _Land_Without_Justice, about REAL injustices that pervaded his native Montenegro. It was as bad as the "justice" meted out by the Mafia,
    and it was built into the very character of the people.

    I am wandering what views on
    justice have people who don't care about such an imbalance?

    Financial imbalances have nothing to do with justice, unless the
    riches were unjustly obtained.

    You think the riches of landlords were justly gained? Landlords are
    social parasites profiting off of the need of people to have shelter.
    There is nothing "just" about the relationship between a landlord and a
    tenant, anymore than there is between a feudal lord and a serf. The
    power imbalance is just too great. Sure you can say the tenant has a
    "choice," but it's not really a choice when your options are to either
    rent or suffer homelessness.


    Do you think Bill Gates deserves to be lynched just because he is so much more wealthy than almost everyone on earth?

    Yes. One does not make a billion dollars ethically. You know how many
    years it'd take to make a billion dollars doing honest work? Two million
    years. Does that sound like a single human lifetime to you? The reason
    Bill Gates is so wealthy is because he benefits from a system that is overwhelmingly built in place to prop up people like Gates. Social
    mobility is a farce under capitalism. Poverty is not a fluke of the
    system, it's a feature.


    After all, Jews were treated like that since Jews exist.

    Only by some peoples. The Muslims only sporadically did that.
    At other times they were the tolerant ones, treating Jews as "People of the Book".

    Leaving old history behind for one line: do you know what the attitude of the Taliban is towards Jews? I don't.

    I don't either.

    I learned a lot about that yesterday, after writing the above. The bottom line is here:
    the Jews almost all left Afghanistan, after once numbering over 40,000, first to emigrate to Israel after 1948,
    then almost all of them after the Soviet involvement in 1979. The other day the last Jew in Afghanistan left:

    https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/afghanistans-jew-leaves-taliban-takeover-79893286

    As for the Taliban, this is what the article says close to the end:
    "The Taliban, like other Islamic militant groups, are hostile to Israel but tolerated the country's miniscule Jewish community during their previous reign."
    [Incidentally, the correct spelling is "minuscule".]
    By the way, that "last Jew" reminds me of most of the Montenegrins in Djilas's book.
    Not someone I'd like to meet.


    Jews prospered for a long time in some countries, free of "elimination," >>> because they were the entrepreneurs. In WWII the Hungarians were among the Axis
    who could not keep the economy going without Jews.
    Only after the Germans installed a government of the Hungarian Nazis
    ("the Arrow Cross") in 1944 did the elimination of Jews really get underway, IIRC.

    For sure there was a reason for that.

    Until you are sure of the reason, there is no cause for you to play "monkey see, monkey do."
    When you are sure, perhaps you won't join it.

    I don't have to be sure about the reasons, and I don't act upon other
    people's reasons. I have my reasons.
    But, isn't it significant, never-the-less?

    Not necessarily, especially since you aren't telling me about your reasons even now.

    In democracy (as I am seeing it), he who does things to harm
    majority, he should be treated as a pest. Isn't this the very
    definition of the word "pest"?

    The majority can be tragically wrong sometimes.

    One example: the centuries-long mismanagement of the earth's resources.
    Like I said a little over an hour ago on
    "Humans can do math, hence, humans are intelligent animals",
    I foresee the collapse of our civilization by 2300 unless drastic changes are made.

    Like abolishing capitalism. Capitalism is the reason we are facing the
    current crises we have. You don't fix a problem by using the very same
    thing that made that problem in the first place.



    Oh, definitely. But, they have "the right" to be whatever they want to
    be. In other words, they are *always right*, majority is *never* wrong.

    Aren't you being resentful about the way things are here? You seem
    to be complaining about the morality of "Might makes right." That is
    the morality of the majority in talk.origins, as far as what they do there goes,
    and that is one reason I fight against it.

    Yeah fuck off, talk.origins has nothing to do with this thread.



    Now, you are the one who is imposing *your* religious believes onto
    others. And you don't have any right to do so.

    Not I. Who does "you" refer to?

    "A pest is any animal or plant harmful to humans or human
    concerns."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pest_(organism)
    I was always a minority, I was always different. I even
    declared myself as a minority, while my both parents are Croats, at >>>>>> one time I declared myself an American, and later, an Italian.
    But, whatever I do, I am doing it for the benefit of the
    majority, otherwise, why would they tolerate me?

    You are being very simplistic here. Need I tell you why?
    I am always pretty simplistic.

    In this case, it's sad that people around you are so intolerant,
    that you can't feel free to do things that don't do what the majority
    thinks will benefit them.


    After all, I am
    shitting onto their world, it is me who is not to standards, who is >>>>>> wrong, not them, it is their world, one should have respect for that. >>>
    Here in America, there are all kinds of people, with none in the majority any more.
    It's a very much more heterogeneous society than Croatia, or Hungary.

    Yes, I am aware of that. America is, never-the-less, nothing like
    Bosnia, or Afghanistan, for example. Do you really want it to be like
    Bosnia, or Afghanistan, one day?

    Of course not. And the way you write about it, I wouldn't want it to be like Croatia either.

    America is a big part of the reason why the former Yugoslavia and
    Afghanistan are in such poor straits nowadays, which you'd know if you
    bothered to read up on the social sciences.


    But the point is, here in America most people aren't hostile enough towards Jews
    to say the sorts of things you say below.

    My girlfriend's Jewish. I don't know why you're tolerating discussion
    with a fucking Nazi.




    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until evening, to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either subject.


    Go fuck yourself, Peter.


    Peter Nyikos


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From erik simpson@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Thu Sep 9 14:25:44 2021
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 12:21:41 PM UTC-7, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 9.9.2021. 21:10, erik simpson wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 9:35:18 AM UTC-7, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    [snip]

    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until evening,
    to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either subject.

    I don’t reply to him because of previous experience. After his recent >> outbursts about Jews I don’t think engaging him does any good (ditto on >> vaccines).

    Not sure why you felt a need to say what you did about Harshman and I
    giving a damn about Jews. A bit uncalled for really.

    Do you have impulsivity issues?

    There are so many unpleasant aspects tp Mario's ramblings that it isn't obvious why
    Peter is so intrigued with him. This isn't to say that Mario is personally reprehensible, but
    he certainly seems to have picked up a bit of bigoted garbage that has floated around in
    eastern Europe for at least hundreds of years. (This also isn't to say that similar bigoted garbage
    hasn't floated around western Europe and pretty much everywhere else, but the tone of the
    garbage is often regionally characteristic.) I am not familiar with Hungarian bigotry although
    i'm sure it's a thing, or whether Peter has sensed something about Mario's ranting that rings
    some bell. I am sure that Peter's insults would continue whether you gave a damn about Jews or not.
    That said, I'm through with this thread as it's going nowhere interesting.
    I would just ask you to hold your horses a bit. I am not your wrecking
    beg.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-e...@googlegroups.com

    If I offended, I beg your pardon. My understanding of you is of a man of some native intelligence
    who didn't get a very good education. As a result, you trust your personal experience and intuition
    over the advice of "experts" or "leaders" who proved frequently wrong. If my experience had been the
    same, I'd probably hold a similar postion to yours. But I'm lucky enough to have had a good education, so
    I have higher regard for the expertise of those who aren't usually wrong. (By "wrecking beg" I assume you meant
    "punching bag"?) If so, I've no intention of punching you or anyone else. At my age, I couldn't do much damage
    anyway. I hope you come to recognize that there is reliable knowledge that comes from outside your own
    experience. Good luck.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to Oxyaena on Thu Sep 9 16:31:10 2021
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:41:18 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/9/2021 10:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 10:48:50 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 9.9.2021. 3:24, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 9:20:57 AM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 8.9.2021. 15:06, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/8/21 6:01 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 8.9.2021. 12:02, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Except in the most obvious cases, [biologists] know better than to try and
    judge that some trait
    is more fit than another. A great deal depends on the environment, >>>>>>>> which is too unpredictable.
    In the last ice age there were gray kangaroos ten feet tall, >>>>>>>> because the environment favored large size; today the same species only has six
    foot tall kangaroos, because that is what the environment favors. >>>>>>>>
    The Nazis were engaged in a dubious form of artificial selection or >>>>>>> animal
    husbandry in their Master Race schema. But what they were doing wasn’t
    entirely eugenics. They pivoted to a hygiene model treating certain >>>>>>> ethnicities as socially detrimental pathogens needing elimination >>>>>>> from the
    body politic. That may be an important distinction.

    I don't know much about what you are writing, but my belief
    also is that certain ethnicities (or groups, or types, like
    psychopaths) should be eliminated as a form of hygiene.

    Using whose criteria? Why do you latch onto Jews right away?
    What have they done to you?

    Based on the criteria of the majority. Even if I am not part of that
    majority, and even if this "hygiene" applies on me.
    Regarding Jews, aren't they the most notorious example? I mean,
    everybody knows everything about Jews.

    Maybe in your part of Croatia [although I doubt it] but certainly
    not in the USA. The endless harping on the Holocaust -- not that I
    mind most of it, "Schindler's List" was jarring even to me -- drowns out anything negative people here say in the media about Jews.

    Lest there be any misunderstanding: I'm glad I saw "Schindler's List,"
    because it brought home to me the utter inhumanity of the Nazi extermination campaign like nothing I saw before -- including the ghastly scenes of
    actual footage in "Judgment at Nuremberg."

    I have to agree that the Holocaust receives a bit too much attention compared to other genocides and atrocities, like the Native American Holocaust, or the Naqba when the Zionists ethnically cleansed Palestine
    of almost all of its indigenous people.

    Interesting how you compare the cold blooded murder of millions of Jews with the displacement of peoples. Can you point me to a webpage where
    it is explained how the partition of Palestine and the resulting displacements are different in their nature from the partition that created India and Pakistan,
    resulting in the displacement of millions of Hindus living in what became Pakistan
    and millions of Muslims living in what became India?

    That said, I am appalled by the genocides and atrocities by White Anglos against
    Native Americans. I cannot understand why there isn't a major hue
    and cry against Andrew Jackson, responsible for the deaths of thousands of Cherokee, including untold numbers of women and children, by
    starvation and exposure to cold during the Trail of Tears, being
    commemorated by his portrait on the $20 bill.

    Mario might not know it, but nowadays automatic teller machines in the USA almost exclusively give you one denomination: $20 bills.



    I could mention other examples,
    but then I would need to explain much more.
    Regarding me and Jews. I grew up in richer neighborhood, and one of
    other two kids in my street is a Jew. So, we were friends from since we >> were kids, and we were always in good relationship (and yes, he was, and >> still is, extremely rich).
    The other thing that I know is from history. I know that there were
    few percentages of Jews in Zagreb, but they were holding 85 % of all the >> investments in Zagreb.

    They know a lot about investing; most people do not. There is nothing said in our elementary or secondary schools about investing, except savings accounts,
    and those are almost worthless these days. They don't even teach you what stocks are for: dividends. Everyone seems to be focused on speculation, buying low and selling high.

    The reason Jewish people have the stereotype of being good at investing
    is because back in the day, they were barred from most other
    professions. The only way for a Jew to feed themselves and their family
    was often banking, so that's what they did.

    Quite true. Did you think of making this comment in direct reply to Mario?



    Being a guy who is predominantly considered about
    justice, I see great injustice in this.

    If you think that is injustice, you really ought to read Milovan Djilas's _Land_Without_Justice, about REAL injustices that pervaded his native Montenegro. It was as bad as the "justice" meted out by the Mafia,
    and it was built into the very character of the people.

    I am wandering what views on
    justice have people who don't care about such an imbalance?

    Financial imbalances have nothing to do with justice, unless the
    riches were unjustly obtained.

    You think the riches of landlords were justly gained? Landlords are
    social parasites profiting off of the need of people to have shelter.

    That's quite an indictment of renting houses and apartments
    to people who cannot get a loan to buy a house for themselves.

    Are you a Marxist, or just a generalized leftist? Do you agree
    with the words of the Communist Manifesto, "Private property is theft."?

    Strangely enough, I agree with it under limited circumstances.
    I include, for example, the ownership of property on the shores
    of lakes dozens of square miles in area with prime boating and fishing possibilities,
    to the point where the general public has access to less than 5% of the shoreline,
    the rest being exclusive private properties.


    I'm short on time, and besides, I'm curious to see whether Harshman or Simpson or Hemidactylus will respond to this post of yours, so I'm stopping here, less than halfway
    through your post.

    Simpson bypassed it over an hour after you did it, and responded
    to Mario instead, so it'll be especially interesting to see whether he, in particular,
    responds to it in the next day or two.


    Peter Nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Thu Sep 9 17:37:25 2021
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:30:32 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 12:16 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 11:59:22 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 7:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until evening,
    to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either subject.

    I have made the choice not to engage further with a rabid anti-semite.
    And, apparently, a rabid anti-various other unstated groups, who
    proposes extermination as a general solution. You have to draw the line
    somewhere.

    How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination? Here is something in the
    article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:

    "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make anyone sick."
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy

    What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly sick? Some other part of the
    virus that our antibodies are unable to target?

    What makes you sick, presumably, is all the virus replicating and lysing
    your cells to get out. Certainly not the spike protein.

    Thanks. Strangely enough, I never read about that lysing feature. Somehow I imagined
    the viruses exiting the way the spike proteins molecules produced by mRNA vaccines exit one at a time,
    to where they can be detected by the immune system, and without their exits causing
    major damage to the cells.


    Peter Nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Fri Sep 10 02:40:43 2021
    On 9.9.2021. 21:54, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 12:23:50 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 9.9.2021. 16:50, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    They know a lot about investing; most people do not. There is nothing said >>> in our elementary or secondary schools about investing, except savings accounts,
    and those are almost worthless these days. They don't even teach you what >>> stocks are for: dividends. Everyone seems to be focused on speculation,
    buying low and selling high.

    You can find just any excuse. The fact is, they don't expand their
    religion, for the sake of exploiting the hosts.

    There you go, completely disregarding what I wrote about Zoroastrians.
    Small wonder: it makes this comment of yours worthless without additional evidence.


    They are organized in
    that way. If they would expand their religion, this mean business
    wouldn't work.

    Being a guy who is predominantly considered about
    justice, I see great injustice in this.

    If you think that is injustice, you really ought to read Milovan Djilas's >>> _Land_Without_Justice, about REAL injustices that pervaded his native
    Montenegro. It was as bad as the "justice" meted out by the Mafia,
    and it was built into the very character of the people.

    Will you go on disregarding this? Are you planning to go on talking
    about financial imbalances being injustice despite what you wrote
    below about Bill Gates?

    I said that I don't know what about this Djilas is writing, and I also
    explained that Bill Gates' imbalances aren't on expense of the others.
    Bill Gates doesn't do harm to community, it enriches it.

    I am wandering what views on
    justice have people who don't care about such an imbalance?

    Financial imbalances have nothing to do with justice, unless the
    riches were unjustly obtained.

    Do you think Bill Gates deserves to be lynched just because he is so much >>> more wealthy than almost everyone on earth?

    Do you think that "robber barons" shouldn't be dealt with?

    No, and I believe Gates deserves to be fined at least a billion dollars
    for destroying Netscape. Not content with having taken it over, he
    made sure that thousands of urls to Netscape articles would never work any more.
    Sort of like the Romans sowing the ground of Carthage with salt after
    razing the city to the ground.

    There was a time when Netscape seemed almost synonymous with the Internet. [Roughly 1993 - 2000.] When was the last time you heard anything about it?

    I am almost absolutely sure that Bill Gates works in accordance to USA
    government, and in the interest of American people. If it wouldn't be
    so, be sure that American government would deal with him a long time
    ago. They are not stupid, and they are not Bill Gates' cousins, to allow
    him to do whatever he wants.
    I am absolutely sure that the net balance of what Bill Gates is doing
    is positive for America. Probably all of them, Putin, Kim Jong-un, Xi
    Jinping, Miguel Diaz-Canel (Cuba) and Nicolas Maduro have Windows on
    their desktops. Discussing such a delicate matters in this context is senseless.

    Monopoly is unjust. If you have two brothers among 10 people, those two are twice as
    strong as any of the other 8. Of course they will prevail. Jews prevail
    because they are organized. They prevail on their behalf, and to the
    harm of the host. Now, if those 2 brothers do this to the other 8, what
    should other 8 do? 8 people should watch how those 2 exploit them? Why?
    Just because those are 2, and this 8 are single? This 8 can do to those
    2 whatever they think they should, those 2 deserved it. It is not their
    place in that company, because they are so unfriendly, and so mean,
    towards the others.

    Even if this fable is based on reality, it is nothing compared to what Bill Gates has done.
    The hypocrite put a measly $100,000 to a propaganda campaign to make Californians vote themselves
    a $300,000,000 increase in their taxes to support "embryonic stem cell research."
    Bill Gates could easily have footed the whole bill himself, but he was clever enough
    [you might prefer to say "Jewish enough"] to hedge his bets big-time, and his hedging
    paid off: nothing of medical value has emerged from it in a decade and a half,
    while "adult" [actually anything that isn't almost totipotent] stem cells have worked
    one medical triumph after another.

    The business of Bill Gates enriches the American community.

    I'd like to see you try to defend this. Microsoft is still pursuing monopoly-type
    practices, and I'm sure Bill Gates is very happy about it. And also about how so much computer related hardware, including laptops like mine, is outsourced to China.

    The thing with Microsoft is, if Microsoft wouldn't have monopoly in
    the USA, it wouldn't have monopoly on the world. It is *very* beneficial
    for America that Microsoft (or any other American company, it really
    doesn't matter which one) has monopoly on the world, it is so obvious.
    If Microsoft is your only argument, then you don't have an argument.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to erik simpson on Fri Sep 10 02:52:36 2021
    On 9.9.2021. 23:25, erik simpson wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 12:21:41 PM UTC-7, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 9.9.2021. 21:10, erik simpson wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 9:35:18 AM UTC-7, *Hemidactylus* wrote: >>>> Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    [snip]

    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until evening,
    to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either subject.

    I don’t reply to him because of previous experience. After his recent >>>> outbursts about Jews I don’t think engaging him does any good (ditto on >>>> vaccines).

    Not sure why you felt a need to say what you did about Harshman and I
    giving a damn about Jews. A bit uncalled for really.

    Do you have impulsivity issues?

    There are so many unpleasant aspects tp Mario's ramblings that it isn't obvious why
    Peter is so intrigued with him. This isn't to say that Mario is personally reprehensible, but
    he certainly seems to have picked up a bit of bigoted garbage that has floated around in
    eastern Europe for at least hundreds of years. (This also isn't to say that similar bigoted garbage
    hasn't floated around western Europe and pretty much everywhere else, but the tone of the
    garbage is often regionally characteristic.) I am not familiar with Hungarian bigotry although
    i'm sure it's a thing, or whether Peter has sensed something about Mario's ranting that rings
    some bell. I am sure that Peter's insults would continue whether you gave a damn about Jews or not.
    That said, I'm through with this thread as it's going nowhere interesting. >> I would just ask you to hold your horses a bit. I am not your wrecking
    beg.

    If I offended, I beg your pardon. My understanding of you is of a man of some native intelligence
    who didn't get a very good education. As a result, you trust your personal experience and intuition
    over the advice of "experts" or "leaders" who proved frequently wrong. If my experience had been the
    same, I'd probably hold a similar postion to yours. But I'm lucky enough to have had a good education, so
    I have higher regard for the expertise of those who aren't usually wrong. (By "wrecking beg" I assume you meant
    "punching bag"?) If so, I've no intention of punching you or anyone else. At my age, I couldn't do much damage
    anyway. I hope you come to recognize that there is reliable knowledge that comes from outside your own
    experience. Good luck.

    Thanks for the nice reply.
    Yes, punching bag.
    Your view of me is accurate.
    But, it wasn't what you wrote. You started that I am unpleasant, and
    not worthy anybody's time. Then you continued about bigoted garbage from eastern Europe. And then it turned out that it isn't only at that low
    level, but suddenly it is also from western Europe. Then it turned out
    that it is actually the whole world.
    So, you started with something like, he is bubbling some strange sh.t,
    and ended up that actually it is strange not to bubble this same sh.t,
    because the whole world is doing it (everybody except you, actually).
    So, now what? Am I worthless (because I am not important), or is your
    denying of what the whole world is doing, actually, worthless?

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From erik simpson@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Thu Sep 9 18:13:26 2021
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 5:52:37 PM UTC-7, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 9.9.2021. 23:25, erik simpson wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 12:21:41 PM UTC-7, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 9.9.2021. 21:10, erik simpson wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 9:35:18 AM UTC-7, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    [snip]

    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until evening,
    to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either subject.

    I don’t reply to him because of previous experience. After his recent >>>> outbursts about Jews I don’t think engaging him does any good (ditto on
    vaccines).

    Not sure why you felt a need to say what you did about Harshman and I >>>> giving a damn about Jews. A bit uncalled for really.

    Do you have impulsivity issues?

    There are so many unpleasant aspects tp Mario's ramblings that it isn't obvious why
    Peter is so intrigued with him. This isn't to say that Mario is personally reprehensible, but
    he certainly seems to have picked up a bit of bigoted garbage that has floated around in
    eastern Europe for at least hundreds of years. (This also isn't to say that similar bigoted garbage
    hasn't floated around western Europe and pretty much everywhere else, but the tone of the
    garbage is often regionally characteristic.) I am not familiar with Hungarian bigotry although
    i'm sure it's a thing, or whether Peter has sensed something about Mario's ranting that rings
    some bell. I am sure that Peter's insults would continue whether you gave a damn about Jews or not.
    That said, I'm through with this thread as it's going nowhere interesting.
    I would just ask you to hold your horses a bit. I am not your wrecking
    beg.

    If I offended, I beg your pardon. My understanding of you is of a man of some native intelligence
    who didn't get a very good education. As a result, you trust your personal experience and intuition
    over the advice of "experts" or "leaders" who proved frequently wrong. If my experience had been the
    same, I'd probably hold a similar postion to yours. But I'm lucky enough to have had a good education, so
    I have higher regard for the expertise of those who aren't usually wrong. (By "wrecking beg" I assume you meant
    "punching bag"?) If so, I've no intention of punching you or anyone else. At my age, I couldn't do much damage
    anyway. I hope you come to recognize that there is reliable knowledge that comes from outside your own
    experience. Good luck.
    Thanks for the nice reply.
    Yes, punching bag.
    Your view of me is accurate.
    But, it wasn't what you wrote. You started that I am unpleasant, and
    not worthy anybody's time. Then you continued about bigoted garbage from eastern Europe. And then it turned out that it isn't only at that low
    level, but suddenly it is also from western Europe. Then it turned out
    that it is actually the whole world.
    So, you started with something like, he is bubbling some strange sh.t,
    and ended up that actually it is strange not to bubble this same sh.t, because the whole world is doing it (everybody except you, actually).
    So, now what? Am I worthless (because I am not important), or is your denying of what the whole world is doing, actually, worthless?

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-e...@googlegroups.com

    Everybody, including myself, picks up garbage that's lying around, just because it's around,
    and at least at first, we don't realize it. We all, you, me, Nyikos, etc. have what I believe is a
    moral responsibility to try to do better. My grandmother lived with my immediate family when
    I was a kid, and she was a wonderful person burdened with some characteristic American bigotry
    of the late 19th century. It wasn't easy for her to get rid of those prejudices (she never completely did)
    but she made a strong effort. I can only hope to do as well. Worthlessness is failing to make the effort.
    The whole world is (I think) getting better, agonizingly slowly, with serious setbacks.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to Oxyaena on Fri Sep 10 03:28:54 2021
    On 9.9.2021. 22:41, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/9/2021 10:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 10:48:50 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic
    wrote:
    On 9.9.2021. 3:24, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 9:20:57 AM UTC-4, Mario
    Petrinovic wrote:
    On 8.9.2021. 15:06, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/8/21 6:01 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 8.9.2021. 12:02, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Except in the most obvious cases, [biologists] know better than >>>>>>>>> to try and
    judge that some trait
    is more fit than another. A great deal depends on the environment, >>>>>>>>> which is too unpredictable.
    In the last ice age there were gray kangaroos ten feet tall, >>>>>>>>> because the environment favored large size; today the same
    species only has six
    foot tall kangaroos, because that is what the environment favors. >>>>>>>>>
    The Nazis were engaged in a dubious form of artificial selection or >>>>>>>> animal
    husbandry in their Master Race schema. But what they were doing >>>>>>>> wasn’t
    entirely eugenics. They pivoted to a hygiene model treating certain >>>>>>>> ethnicities as socially detrimental pathogens needing elimination >>>>>>>> from the
    body politic. That may be an important distinction.

    I don't know much about what you are writing, but my belief
    also is that certain ethnicities (or groups, or types, like
    psychopaths) should be eliminated as a form of hygiene.

    Using whose criteria? Why do you latch onto Jews right away?
    What have they done to you?

    Based on the criteria of the majority. Even if I am not part of that
    majority, and even if this "hygiene" applies on me.
    Regarding Jews, aren't they the most notorious example? I mean,
    everybody knows everything about Jews.

    Maybe in your part of Croatia [although I doubt it] but certainly
    not in the USA. The endless harping on the Holocaust -- not that I
    mind most of it, "Schindler's List" was jarring even to me -- drowns out
    anything negative people here say in the media about Jews.

    I have to agree that the Holocaust receives a bit too much attention
    compared to other genocides and atrocities, like the Native American Holocaust, or the Naqba when the Zionists ethnically cleansed Palestine
    of almost all of its indigenous people.



    I could mention other examples,
    but then I would need to explain much more.
    Regarding me and Jews. I grew up in richer neighborhood, and one of
    other two kids in my street is a Jew. So, we were friends from since we
    were kids, and we were always in good relationship (and yes, he was, and >>> still is, extremely rich).
    The other thing that I know is from history. I know that there were
    few percentages of Jews in Zagreb, but they were holding 85 % of all the >>> investments in Zagreb.

    They know a lot about investing; most people do not. There is nothing
    said
    in our elementary or secondary schools about investing, except savings
    accounts,
    and those are almost worthless these days. They don't even teach you what
    stocks are for: dividends.  Everyone seems to be focused on speculation,
    buying low and selling high.

    The reason Jewish people have the stereotype of being good at investing
    is because back in the day, they were barred from most other
    professions. The only way for a Jew to feed themselves and their family
    was often banking, so that's what they did.

    I heard about this fairy tale, but I don't believe it. Like somebody
    would deny me to be poor, and force me to be rich. Jesus Christ, I
    cannot believe this, no way.
    This world is revolving around money for the last 2,600 years. And you
    are saying that somebody forced Jews to deal only with money, to control
    the bloodstream of society, and they mustn't do anything else.
    Well, I heard hundreds of communist fairy tales in my lifetime, and
    this one sounds just like one of those.

    Being a guy who is predominantly considered about
    justice, I see great injustice in this.

    If you think that is injustice, you really ought to read Milovan Djilas's
    _Land_Without_Justice, about REAL injustices that pervaded his native
    Montenegro. It was as bad as the "justice" meted out by the Mafia,
    and it was built into the very character of the people.

      I am wandering what views on
    justice have people who don't care about such an imbalance?

    Financial imbalances have nothing to do with justice, unless the
    riches were unjustly obtained.

    You think the riches of landlords were justly gained? Landlords are
    social parasites profiting off of the need of people to have shelter.
    There is nothing "just" about the relationship between a landlord and a tenant, anymore than there is between a feudal lord and a serf. The
    power imbalance is just too great. Sure you can say the tenant has a "choice," but it's not really a choice when your options are to either
    rent or suffer homelessness.

    I believe that this is a product of capitalism, that it is made in
    accordance to the needs of society, and that capitalism is the best system.

    Do you think Bill Gates deserves to be lynched just because he is so much
    more wealthy than almost everyone on earth?

    Yes. One does not make a billion dollars ethically. You know how many
    years it'd take to make a billion dollars doing honest work? Two million years. Does that sound like a single human lifetime to you? The reason
    Bill Gates is so wealthy is because he benefits from a system that is overwhelmingly built in place to prop up people like Gates. Social
    mobility is a farce under capitalism. Poverty is not a fluke of the
    system, it's a feature.

    Well, it looks like you cannot have one without the other. As far as I
    know, the poverty line is if you give more than 25 % of your income on
    food. The average for Croatia (for all the people) is 27 %. Croats are convinced that there is no poverty in Croatia (and they will talk and
    explain this to you for hours, poor you, who lives in USA which is full
    with poverty), and that there is a lot of poverty in the USA. Idiots.
    And you will listen to this idiots, and you will find "first hand" that
    Croatia is a Paradise, especially compared to the USA. Mind you, those
    are all poor people, who never had enough money to pay themselves a trip abroad, to see for themselves how the other people are living.
    For example, in Yugoslavia we had free higher education (isn't it a
    Paradise?). It is very expensive in the USA. Yet, Yugoslavia had only 7
    % of people to go to colleges, while USA has 28 %, four times more.

    After all, Jews were treated like that since Jews exist.

    Only by some peoples. The Muslims only sporadically did that.
    At other times they were the tolerant ones, treating Jews as "People
    of the Book".

    Leaving old history behind for one line: do you know what the
    attitude of the Taliban is towards Jews? I don't.

    I don't either.

    I learned a lot about that yesterday, after writing the above. The
    bottom line is here:
    the Jews almost all left Afghanistan, after once  numbering over
    40,000, first to emigrate to Israel after 1948,
    then almost all of them after the Soviet involvement in 1979.   The
    other day the last Jew in Afghanistan left:

    https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/afghanistans-jew-leaves-taliban-takeover-79893286


    As for the Taliban, this is what the article says close to the end:
    "The Taliban, like other Islamic militant groups, are hostile to
    Israel but tolerated the country's miniscule Jewish community during
    their previous reign."
    [Incidentally, the correct spelling is "minuscule".]
    By the way, that "last Jew" reminds me of most of the Montenegrins in
    Djilas's book.
    Not someone I'd like to meet.


    Jews prospered for a long time in some countries, free of
    "elimination,"
    because they were the entrepreneurs. In WWII the Hungarians were
    among the Axis
    who could not keep the economy going without Jews.
    Only after the Germans installed a government of the Hungarian Nazis
    ("the Arrow Cross") in 1944 did the elimination of Jews really get
    underway, IIRC.

    For sure there was a reason for that.

    Until you are sure of the reason, there is no cause for you to play
    "monkey see, monkey do."
    When you are sure, perhaps you won't join it.

    I don't have to be sure about the reasons, and I don't act upon other
    people's reasons. I have my reasons.
    But, isn't it significant, never-the-less?

    Not necessarily, especially since you aren't telling  me about your
    reasons even now.

    In democracy (as I am seeing it), he who does things to harm
    majority, he should be treated as a pest. Isn't this the very
    definition of the word "pest"?

    The majority can be tragically wrong sometimes.

    One example: the centuries-long mismanagement of the earth's resources.
    Like I said a little over an hour ago on
    "Humans can do math, hence, humans are intelligent animals",
    I foresee the collapse of our civilization by 2300 unless drastic
    changes are made.

    Like abolishing capitalism. Capitalism is the reason we are facing the current crises we have. You don't fix a problem by using the very same
    thing that made that problem in the first place.



    Oh, definitely. But, they have "the right" to be whatever they want to
    be. In other words, they are *always right*, majority is *never* wrong.

    Aren't you being resentful about the way things are here? You seem
    to be complaining about the morality of "Might makes right." That is
    the morality of the majority in talk.origins, as far as what they do
    there goes,
    and that is one reason I fight against it.

    Yeah fuck off, talk.origins has nothing to do with this thread.



    Now, you are the one who is imposing *your* religious believes onto
    others. And you don't have any right to do so.

    Not I. Who does "you" refer to?

    "A pest is any animal or plant harmful to humans or human
    concerns."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pest_(organism)
    I was always a minority, I was always different. I even
    declared myself as a minority, while my both parents are Croats, at >>>>>>> one time I declared myself an American, and later, an Italian.
    But, whatever I do, I am doing it for the benefit of the
    majority, otherwise, why would they tolerate me?

    You are being very simplistic here. Need I tell you why?
    I am always pretty simplistic.

    In this case, it's sad that people around you are so intolerant,
    that you can't feel free to do things that don't do what the majority
    thinks will benefit them.


    After all, I am
    shitting onto their world, it is me who is not to standards, who is >>>>>>> wrong, not them, it is their world, one should have respect for
    that.

    Here in America, there are all kinds of people, with none in the
    majority any more.
    It's a very much more heterogeneous society than Croatia, or Hungary.

    Yes, I am aware of that. America is, never-the-less, nothing like
    Bosnia, or Afghanistan, for example. Do you really want it to be like
    Bosnia, or Afghanistan, one day?

    Of course not. And the way you write about it, I wouldn't want it to
    be like Croatia either.

    America is a big part of the reason why the former Yugoslavia and
    Afghanistan are in such poor straits nowadays, which you'd know if you bothered to read up on the social sciences.

    Lol, you really don't know anything. America invested a lot of money
    into Yugoslavia. The same goes for Afghanistan. With the best
    intentions. It is the others that have very bad intentions.

    But the point is, here in America most people aren't hostile enough
    towards Jews
    to say the sorts of things you say below.

    My girlfriend's Jewish. I don't know why you're tolerating discussion
    with a fucking Nazi.

    I would never be so partial. Because your friend is a Jew, you don't
    take anything against Jews. Hm, what if Jews made some foul play? You
    don't care, because your friend is a Jew.
    Hm, this is a scientific forum, not forum for housewives.

    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until
    evening,
    to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about
    either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either
    subject.


    Go fuck yourself, Peter.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Thu Sep 9 18:41:00 2021
    On 9/9/21 5:37 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:30:32 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 12:16 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 11:59:22 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote: >>>> On 9/9/21 7:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until evening,
    to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either subject.

    I have made the choice not to engage further with a rabid anti-semite. >>>> And, apparently, a rabid anti-various other unstated groups, who
    proposes extermination as a general solution. You have to draw the line >>>> somewhere.

    How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination? Here is something in the
    article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:

    "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make anyone sick."
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy >>>
    What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly sick? Some other part of the
    virus that our antibodies are unable to target?

    What makes you sick, presumably, is all the virus replicating and lysing
    your cells to get out. Certainly not the spike protein.

    Thanks. Strangely enough, I never read about that lysing feature. Somehow I imagined
    the viruses exiting the way the spike proteins molecules produced by mRNA vaccines exit one at a time,
    to where they can be detected by the immune system, and without their exits causing
    major damage to the cells.

    Turns out that SARS-Cov-2 doesn't generally lyse cells. Instead it
    coopts the lysosome to exit. And it appears that nobody actually knows
    for sure how the virus damages the body. Still, it isn't the spike
    protein that does it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Fri Sep 10 04:04:50 2021
    On 10.9.2021. 3:41, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 5:37 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:30:32 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 12:16 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 11:59:22 AM UTC-4, John Harshman
    wrote:
    On 9/9/21 7:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it
    until evening,
    to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn
    about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on
    either subject.

    I have made the choice not to engage further with a rabid anti-semite. >>>>> And, apparently, a rabid anti-various other unstated groups, who
    proposes extermination as a general solution. You have to draw the
    line
    somewhere.

    How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination?
    Here is something in the
    article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:

    "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make
    anyone sick."
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy


    What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly
    sick? Some other part of the
    virus that our antibodies are unable to target?

    What makes you sick, presumably, is all the virus replicating and lysing >>> your cells to get out. Certainly not the spike protein.

    Thanks. Strangely enough, I never read about that lysing feature.
    Somehow I imagined
    the  viruses exiting the way the spike proteins molecules produced by
    mRNA vaccines exit one at a time,
    to where they can be detected by the immune system, and without their
    exits causing
    major damage to the cells.

    Turns out that SARS-Cov-2 doesn't generally lyse cells. Instead it
    coopts the lysosome to exit. And it appears that nobody actually knows
    for sure how the virus damages the body. Still, it isn't the spike
    protein that does it.

    I am telling you people, but you refuse to listen. Everything was
    known since the beginning, but nobody talks about this anymore. It isn't
    the virus, what is killing us is the harsh reaction of our immune system
    to that virus. Our immune system is killing us, because it doesn't work
    as advertised, anymore.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Thu Sep 9 20:46:04 2021
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 12:16:27 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 11:59:22 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 7:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until evening,
    to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either subject.

    I have made the choice not to engage further with a rabid anti-semite. And, apparently, a rabid anti-various other unstated groups, who
    proposes extermination as a general solution. You have to draw the line somewhere.
    How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination? Here is something in the
    article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:

    "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make anyone sick. "
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy

    What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly sick? Some other part of the
    virus that our antibodies are unable to target?

    One opinion;

    'SARS-CoV-2 grows in type II lung cells, which secrete a soap-like substance that helps air slip deep into the lungs, and in cells lining the throat. As with SARS, most of the damage in COVID-19, the illness caused by the new coronavirus, is caused by
    the immune system carrying out a scorched earth defense to stop the virus from spreading. Millions of cells from the immune system invade the infected lung tissue and cause massive amounts of damage in the process of cleaning out the virus and any
    infected cells."

    https://theconversation.com/what-the-coronavirus-does-to-your-body-that-makes-it-so-deadly-133856

    Don't count on Eric or John to really know anything.

    And this is way off topic for this froup. funny that no one seems to mind.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to Mario Petrinovic on Fri Sep 10 06:31:16 2021
    On 10.9.2021. 6:28, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 10.9.2021. 5:46, Glenn wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 12:16:27 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 11:59:22 AM UTC-4, John Harshman
    wrote:
    On 9/9/21 7:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until
    evening,
    to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn
    about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on
    either subject.

    I have made the choice not to engage further with a rabid anti-semite. >>>> And, apparently, a rabid anti-various other unstated groups, who
    proposes extermination as a general solution. You have to draw the line >>>> somewhere.
    How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination?
    Here is something in the
    article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:

    "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make
    anyone sick. "
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy >>>

    What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly
    sick? Some other part of the
    virus that our antibodies are unable to target?

    One opinion;

    'SARS-CoV-2 grows in type II lung cells, which secrete a soap-like
    substance that helps air slip deep into the lungs, and in cells lining
    the throat. As with SARS, most of the damage in COVID-19, the illness
    caused by the new coronavirus, is caused by the immune system carrying
    out a scorched earth defense to stop the virus from spreading.
    Millions of cells from the immune system invade the infected lung
    tissue and cause massive amounts of damage in the process of cleaning
    out the virus and any infected cells."

    https://theconversation.com/what-the-coronavirus-does-to-your-body-that-makes-it-so-deadly-133856


    Don't count on Eric or John to really know anything.

    And this is way off topic for this froup. funny that no one seems to
    mind.

            Exactly, lol. Count on Mario Petrinovic.
            Thanks Glenn, :) .

    It is the interpretation thing. Some people interpret everything
    wrongly. Even if they have some knowledge, they interpret it wrongly.
    For the reason I cannot grasp, lol.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to Glenn on Fri Sep 10 06:28:51 2021
    On 10.9.2021. 5:46, Glenn wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 12:16:27 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 11:59:22 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote: >>> On 9/9/21 7:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until evening,
    to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either subject.

    I have made the choice not to engage further with a rabid anti-semite.
    And, apparently, a rabid anti-various other unstated groups, who
    proposes extermination as a general solution. You have to draw the line
    somewhere.
    How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination? Here is something in the
    article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:

    "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make anyone sick. "
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy >>
    What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly sick? Some other part of the
    virus that our antibodies are unable to target?

    One opinion;

    'SARS-CoV-2 grows in type II lung cells, which secrete a soap-like substance that helps air slip deep into the lungs, and in cells lining the throat. As with SARS, most of the damage in COVID-19, the illness caused by the new coronavirus, is caused by
    the immune system carrying out a scorched earth defense to stop the virus from spreading. Millions of cells from the immune system invade the infected lung tissue and cause massive amounts of damage in the process of cleaning out the virus and any
    infected cells."

    https://theconversation.com/what-the-coronavirus-does-to-your-body-that-makes-it-so-deadly-133856

    Don't count on Eric or John to really know anything.

    And this is way off topic for this froup. funny that no one seems to mind.

    Exactly, lol. Count on Mario Petrinovic.
    Thanks Glenn, :) .

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to Glenn on Fri Sep 10 11:04:53 2021
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 8:46:05 PM UTC-7, Glenn wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 12:16:27 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 11:59:22 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 7:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until evening,
    to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either subject.

    I have made the choice not to engage further with a rabid anti-semite. And, apparently, a rabid anti-various other unstated groups, who proposes extermination as a general solution. You have to draw the line somewhere.
    How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination? Here is something in the
    article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:

    "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make anyone sick. "
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy

    What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly sick? Some other part of the
    virus that our antibodies are unable to target?

    One opinion;

    'SARS-CoV-2 grows in type II lung cells, which secrete a soap-like substance that helps air slip deep into the lungs, and in cells lining the throat. As with SARS, most of the damage in COVID-19, the illness caused by the new coronavirus, is caused by
    the immune system carrying out a scorched earth defense to stop the virus from spreading. Millions of cells from the immune system invade the infected lung tissue and cause massive amounts of damage in the process of cleaning out the virus and any
    infected cells."

    https://theconversation.com/what-the-coronavirus-does-to-your-body-that-makes-it-so-deadly-133856

    Don't count on Eric or John to really know anything.

    And this is way off topic for this froup. funny that no one seems to mind.

    More directly to your question of why some people get deathly sick and others not, there may be one reason for some people:

    "In other words, the cigarette smoke extract and these two drugs—all of which act as activators of AHR—are able to suppress the expression of ACE2 in mammalian cells, and by doing so, reduce the ability of the SARS-CoV-2 virus to enter the cell."

    https://medicalxpress.com/news/2021-09-drugs-mimic-effects-cigarette-sars-cov-.html

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to Glenn on Fri Sep 10 12:03:48 2021
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 11:46:05 PM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 12:16:27 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 11:59:22 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 7:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until evening,
    to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either subject.

    I have made the choice not to engage further with a rabid anti-semite. And, apparently, a rabid anti-various other unstated groups, who proposes extermination as a general solution. You have to draw the line somewhere.
    How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination? Here is something in the
    article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:

    "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make anyone sick. "
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy

    What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly sick? Some other part of the
    virus that our antibodies are unable to target?

    One opinion;

    'SARS-CoV-2 grows in type II lung cells, which secrete a soap-like substance that helps air slip deep into the lungs, and in cells lining the throat. As with SARS, most of the damage in COVID-19, the illness caused by the new coronavirus, is caused by
    the immune system carrying out a scorched earth defense to stop the virus from spreading. Millions of cells from the immune system invade the infected lung tissue and cause massive amounts of damage in the process of cleaning out the virus and any
    infected cells."

    https://theconversation.com/what-the-coronavirus-does-to-your-body-that-makes-it-so-deadly-133856

    I'm a tad surprised. I try to keep up with The Conversation when it's about a number of topics of
    first rate importance, but I think I missed this one.

    Ironically, it looks like this is one of the few places where the anti-vaxxers have more on the ball than
    the ones who cancel them in social media. They've been harping on this reaction as evidence
    that the virus itself is harmless and it is only the body attacking itself that is the real cause of Covid-19.



    Don't count on Eric or John to really know anything.

    Right, they are more interested in government imposed mandates than in science.
    Biden's hot-off-the-presses plan to "deputize" any employer with 100 or more employees to
    make them "take the jab" is sure to be near and dear their hearts, especially the fact that,
    unlike regular "deputizing," which is voluntary, this one would be like the draft.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/will-joe-biden-e2-80-99s-vaccine-mandate-for-large-companies-have-legal-ramifications/ar-AAOj3Mm?ocid=uxbndlbing

    You know, draft, the thing that elicited draft card burning and "Hell, no, we won't go" in the 60's
    from the likes of them. But their kind of politics is the kind that goes without a hitch from
    "Four legs good, two legs bad!" to "Four legs good, two legs *better*!"

    [Technical detail: employees can opt out if they test every week, as long as they
    test negative every time. But most employees will not want to take that risk.]

    And this is way off topic for this froup. funny that no one seems to mind.

    I don't mind, but for a surprising reason: I know that a lot of what we've written on why the mRNA
    vaccines are safe IS relevant to a lot of paleontology.

    I don't think that's the reason anyone else doesn't mind. It takes someone with my peculiar qualities to see a connection.

    1. I am good at thinking outside the box. Except perhaps for Mario, the regulars
    besides me demonstrate all kinds of stereotyped thinking. Harshman, for instance,
    has the impressive specialized knowledge and skills of an idiot savant when it comes to certain aspects of systematics and ornithology, but even there,
    he is not good at making connections between disparate parts of his expertise. Once those "savant" skills no longer avail him, he is a lot like the "idiot" half of "idiot savant".

    2. I take the scientific side of the anti-vaxxer challenge seriously. The others [here, I think
    Mario doesn't care] have a strong authoritarian streak that manifests itself in political activism.
    See my comments about the Biden would-be mandate.

    It's even worse with some of their allies in talk.origins. I was denounced as being
    responsible for untold numbers of deaths by daring to ASK A QUESTION about the very thing where I found the connection that I will be introducing next Monday.
    The person who did it was welcomed to talk.origins by Harshman as having "true grit"
    in return for doing an unprovoked, unsupported personal attack against me.


    Peter Nyikos
    Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
    University of South Carolina
    http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

    PS Spoiler: the title of the thread, slated for next Monday, will be:

    "Ancient bornaviruses and modern vaccines."

    The "Ancient" gives the paleontological connection. Although viruses are not known to fossilize,
    their effects go back millions of years on mammals and other vertebrates.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Fri Sep 10 12:31:45 2021
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 12:03:49 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 11:46:05 PM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 12:16:27 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 11:59:22 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 7:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until evening,
    to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either subject.

    I have made the choice not to engage further with a rabid anti-semite. And, apparently, a rabid anti-various other unstated groups, who proposes extermination as a general solution. You have to draw the line
    somewhere.
    How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination? Here is something in the
    article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:

    "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make anyone sick. "
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy

    What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly sick? Some other part of the
    virus that our antibodies are unable to target?

    One opinion;

    'SARS-CoV-2 grows in type II lung cells, which secrete a soap-like substance that helps air slip deep into the lungs, and in cells lining the throat. As with SARS, most of the damage in COVID-19, the illness caused by the new coronavirus, is caused
    by the immune system carrying out a scorched earth defense to stop the virus from spreading. Millions of cells from the immune system invade the infected lung tissue and cause massive amounts of damage in the process of cleaning out the virus and any
    infected cells."

    https://theconversation.com/what-the-coronavirus-does-to-your-body-that-makes-it-so-deadly-133856
    I'm a tad surprised. I try to keep up with The Conversation when it's about a number of topics of
    first rate importance, but I think I missed this one.

    Ironically, it looks like this is one of the few places where the anti-vaxxers have more on the ball than
    the ones who cancel them in social media. They've been harping on this reaction as evidence
    that the virus itself is harmless and it is only the body attacking itself that is the real cause of Covid-19.
    Don't count on Eric or John to really know anything.
    Right, they are more interested in government imposed mandates than in science.
    Biden's hot-off-the-presses plan to "deputize" any employer with 100 or more employees to
    make them "take the jab" is sure to be near and dear their hearts, especially the fact that,
    unlike regular "deputizing," which is voluntary, this one would be like the draft.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/will-joe-biden-e2-80-99s-vaccine-mandate-for-large-companies-have-legal-ramifications/ar-AAOj3Mm?ocid=uxbndlbing

    You know, draft, the thing that elicited draft card burning and "Hell, no, we won't go" in the 60's
    from the likes of them. But their kind of politics is the kind that goes without a hitch from
    "Four legs good, two legs bad!" to "Four legs good, two legs *better*!"

    [Technical detail: employees can opt out if they test every week, as long as they
    test negative every time. But most employees will not want to take that risk.]
    And this is way off topic for this froup. funny that no one seems to mind.
    I don't mind, but for a surprising reason: I know that a lot of what we've written on why the mRNA
    vaccines are safe IS relevant to a lot of paleontology.

    I don't think that's the reason anyone else doesn't mind. It takes someone with
    my peculiar qualities to see a connection.

    1. I am good at thinking outside the box. Except perhaps for Mario, the regulars
    besides me demonstrate all kinds of stereotyped thinking. Harshman, for instance,
    has the impressive specialized knowledge and skills of an idiot savant when it
    comes to certain aspects of systematics and ornithology, but even there,
    he is not good at making connections between disparate parts of his expertise.
    Once those "savant" skills no longer avail him, he is a lot like the "idiot" half of "idiot savant".

    2. I take the scientific side of the anti-vaxxer challenge seriously. The others [here, I think
    Mario doesn't care] have a strong authoritarian streak that manifests itself in political activism.
    See my comments about the Biden would-be mandate.

    It's even worse with some of their allies in talk.origins. I was denounced as being
    responsible for untold numbers of deaths by daring to ASK A QUESTION about the
    very thing where I found the connection that I will be introducing next Monday.
    The person who did it was welcomed to talk.origins by Harshman as having "true grit"
    in return for doing an unprovoked, unsupported personal attack against me.


    Peter Nyikos
    Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
    University of South Carolina
    http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

    PS Spoiler: the title of the thread, slated for next Monday, will be:

    "Ancient bornaviruses and modern vaccines."

    The "Ancient" gives the paleontological connection. Although viruses are not known to fossilize,
    their effects go back millions of years on mammals and other vertebrates.

    This may interest you:

    "A Large Number of Protein Folds Shared Exclusively between Viruses and Their Host Genomes Were Likely Transferred from Viruses to Cells"

    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmicb.2017.02110/full

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From erik simpson@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Fri Sep 10 14:34:01 2021
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 12:03:49 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:


    Ironically, it looks like this is one of the few places where the anti-vaxxers have more on the ball than
    the ones who cancel them in social media. They've been harping on this reaction as evidence
    that the virus itself is harmless and it is only the body attacking itself that is the real cause of Covid-19.
    Don't count on Eric or John to really know anything.
    Right, they are more interested in government imposed mandates than in science.
    Biden's hot-off-the-presses plan to "deputize" any employer with 100 or more employees to
    make them "take the jab" is sure to be near and dear their hearts, especially the fact that,
    unlike regular "deputizing," which is voluntary, this one would be like the draft.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/will-joe-biden-e2-80-99s-vaccine-mandate-for-large-companies-have-legal-ramifications/ar-AAOj3Mm?ocid=uxbndlbing

    You know, draft, the thing that elicited draft card burning and "Hell, no, we won't go" in the 60's
    from the likes of them. But their kind of politics is the kind that goes without a hitch from
    "Four legs good, two legs bad!" to "Four legs good, two legs *better*!"


    Just for the record, Peter, you would be hard-put to be more wrong about my political positions. Actually,
    you have no evidence of them, as I've been careful not to introduce them. Nor will I expound on them now.
    Along with your insight into others' "real meanings", you are batting near zero here.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to erik simpson on Fri Sep 10 17:14:50 2021
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 5:34:02 PM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 12:03:49 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:


    Ironically, it looks like this is one of the few places where the anti-vaxxers have more on the ball than
    the ones who cancel them in social media. They've been harping on this reaction as evidence
    that the virus itself is harmless and it is only the body attacking itself that is the real cause of Covid-19.
    Don't count on Eric or John to really know anything.
    Right, they are more interested in government imposed mandates than in science.
    Biden's hot-off-the-presses plan to "deputize" any employer with 100 or more employees to
    make them "take the jab" is sure to be near and dear their hearts, especially the fact that,
    unlike regular "deputizing," which is voluntary, this one would be like the draft.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/will-joe-biden-e2-80-99s-vaccine-mandate-for-large-companies-have-legal-ramifications/ar-AAOj3Mm?ocid=uxbndlbing

    You know, draft, the thing that elicited draft card burning and "Hell, no, we won't go" in the 60's
    from the likes of them. But their kind of politics is the kind that goes without a hitch from
    "Four legs good, two legs bad!" to "Four legs good, two legs *better*!"

    Just for the record, Peter, you would be hard-put to be more wrong about my political positions.

    Since I didn't say anything about them specifically, but only used one illustrative example
    about "the likes of them" [which does not mean "them, personally], you are building a castle in the air.


    you have no evidence of them, as I've been careful not to introduce them. Nor will I expound on them now.

    Irrelevant. The only issue is whether your views on SOME political matters change markedly,
    particularly in reaction to shifts in the prevailing winds. There have been many
    in the last two decades, you know, as long as you realize that changes in prevailing values
    are very much part of political change.

    If it's anything like your flip-flops here, it's a no-brainer. For three years now, you've been going from
    "Peter is boring, I hardly pay any attention to him any more" and "I'm done with this thread"
    to showing how magically your "boredom" disappears when you think you can get the upper
    hand on me, and how you often return to a thread soon after claiming you are done with it.
    On "Vaccinations," you already "went back on your word" in less than a day after supposedly being done.


    Along with your insight into others' "real meanings", you are batting near zero here

    You are too cagey to even hint at what you are referring to here, so the last clause is just hot air.


    Peter Nyios

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oxyaena@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Fri Sep 10 23:31:49 2021
    On 9/9/2021 7:31 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:41:18 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/9/2021 10:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 10:48:50 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 9.9.2021. 3:24, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 9:20:57 AM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 8.9.2021. 15:06, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/8/21 6:01 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 8.9.2021. 12:02, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Except in the most obvious cases, [biologists] know better than to try and
    judge that some trait
    is more fit than another. A great deal depends on the environment, >>>>>>>>>> which is too unpredictable.
    In the last ice age there were gray kangaroos ten feet tall, >>>>>>>>>> because the environment favored large size; today the same species only has six
    foot tall kangaroos, because that is what the environment favors. >>>>>>>>>>
    The Nazis were engaged in a dubious form of artificial selection or >>>>>>>>> animal
    husbandry in their Master Race schema. But what they were doing wasn’t
    entirely eugenics. They pivoted to a hygiene model treating certain >>>>>>>>> ethnicities as socially detrimental pathogens needing elimination >>>>>>>>> from the
    body politic. That may be an important distinction.

    I don't know much about what you are writing, but my belief
    also is that certain ethnicities (or groups, or types, like
    psychopaths) should be eliminated as a form of hygiene.

    Using whose criteria? Why do you latch onto Jews right away?
    What have they done to you?

    Based on the criteria of the majority. Even if I am not part of that
    majority, and even if this "hygiene" applies on me.
    Regarding Jews, aren't they the most notorious example? I mean,
    everybody knows everything about Jews.

    Maybe in your part of Croatia [although I doubt it] but certainly
    not in the USA. The endless harping on the Holocaust -- not that I
    mind most of it, "Schindler's List" was jarring even to me -- drowns out >>> anything negative people here say in the media about Jews.

    Lest there be any misunderstanding: I'm glad I saw "Schindler's List," because it brought home to me the utter inhumanity of the Nazi extermination campaign like nothing I saw before -- including the ghastly scenes of
    actual footage in "Judgment at Nuremberg."

    I have to agree that the Holocaust receives a bit too much attention
    compared to other genocides and atrocities, like the Native American
    Holocaust, or the Naqba when the Zionists ethnically cleansed Palestine
    of almost all of its indigenous people.

    Interesting how you compare the cold blooded murder of millions of Jews with the displacement of peoples.

    Interesting how you whitewash the cold-blooded 75+ year long oppression
    of the Palestinian people as "mere ethnic displacement." You've always
    been a piece of shit, Peter, but this is a new low even for you.

    Can you point me to a webpage where
    it is explained how the partition of Palestine and the resulting displacements
    are different in their nature from the partition that created India and Pakistan,
    resulting in the displacement of millions of Hindus living in what became Pakistan
    and millions of Muslims living in what became India?

    Does that make it any better? Palestinians are to this day oppressed by
    the Apartheid regime in Israel, or have you shoved your head so far up
    your own ass that Apartheid in any form is a "good thing" that we should
    strive for? Both the partitions of the Indian subcontinent and Palestine
    are the results of British imperialism, so they share common ground in
    that front.


    That said, I am appalled by the genocides and atrocities by White Anglos against
    Native Americans. I cannot understand why there isn't a major hue
    and cry against Andrew Jackson, responsible for the deaths of thousands of Cherokee, including untold numbers of women and children, by
    starvation and exposure to cold during the Trail of Tears, being
    commemorated by his portrait on the $20 bill.

    I have to agree with you there.


    Mario might not know it, but nowadays automatic teller machines in the USA almost exclusively give you one denomination: $20 bills.



    I could mention other examples,
    but then I would need to explain much more.
    Regarding me and Jews. I grew up in richer neighborhood, and one of
    other two kids in my street is a Jew. So, we were friends from since we >>>> were kids, and we were always in good relationship (and yes, he was, and >>>> still is, extremely rich).
    The other thing that I know is from history. I know that there were
    few percentages of Jews in Zagreb, but they were holding 85 % of all the >>>> investments in Zagreb.

    They know a lot about investing; most people do not. There is nothing said >>> in our elementary or secondary schools about investing, except savings accounts,
    and those are almost worthless these days. They don't even teach you what >>> stocks are for: dividends. Everyone seems to be focused on speculation,
    buying low and selling high.

    The reason Jewish people have the stereotype of being good at investing
    is because back in the day, they were barred from most other
    professions. The only way for a Jew to feed themselves and their family
    was often banking, so that's what they did.

    Quite true. Did you think of making this comment in direct reply to Mario?

    I was adding context to something you ignored and failed to cover upon.




    Being a guy who is predominantly considered about
    justice, I see great injustice in this.

    If you think that is injustice, you really ought to read Milovan Djilas's >>> _Land_Without_Justice, about REAL injustices that pervaded his native
    Montenegro. It was as bad as the "justice" meted out by the Mafia,
    and it was built into the very character of the people.

    I am wandering what views on
    justice have people who don't care about such an imbalance?

    Financial imbalances have nothing to do with justice, unless the
    riches were unjustly obtained.

    You think the riches of landlords were justly gained? Landlords are
    social parasites profiting off of the need of people to have shelter.

    That's quite an indictment of renting houses and apartments
    to people who cannot get a loan to buy a house for themselves.

    As someone who's been the victim of parasitic landlords in the past,
    yes, it is quite the indictment, one I'll stand by until the day I die.


    Are you a Marxist, or just a generalized leftist? Do you agree
    with the words of the Communist Manifesto, "Private property is theft."?

    I'm an anarchist, and I believe Proudhon put it better: "Property is
    robbery." I believe in a usufructuary conception of property: occupation
    and usage. If you ain't living on it and using that land, it's not
    yours. That would eliminate the problem of parasitic absentee
    landlordism outright.


    Strangely enough, I agree with it under limited circumstances.
    I include, for example, the ownership of property on the shores
    of lakes dozens of square miles in area with prime boating and fishing possibilities,
    to the point where the general public has access to less than 5% of the shoreline,
    the rest being exclusive private properties.

    All property has been either seized at gunpoint from the indigenous or
    parceled out of the commons via fiat. The very history of private
    property is one of theft and robbery.

    [snip irreleventia]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oxyaena@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Fri Sep 10 23:35:13 2021
    On 9/10/2021 8:14 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 5:34:02 PM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 12:03:49 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:


    Ironically, it looks like this is one of the few places where the anti-vaxxers have more on the ball than
    the ones who cancel them in social media. They've been harping on this reaction as evidence
    that the virus itself is harmless and it is only the body attacking itself that is the real cause of Covid-19.
    Don't count on Eric or John to really know anything.
    Right, they are more interested in government imposed mandates than in science.
    Biden's hot-off-the-presses plan to "deputize" any employer with 100 or more employees to
    make them "take the jab" is sure to be near and dear their hearts, especially the fact that,
    unlike regular "deputizing," which is voluntary, this one would be like the draft.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/will-joe-biden-e2-80-99s-vaccine-mandate-for-large-companies-have-legal-ramifications/ar-AAOj3Mm?ocid=uxbndlbing

    You know, draft, the thing that elicited draft card burning and "Hell, no, we won't go" in the 60's
    from the likes of them. But their kind of politics is the kind that goes without a hitch from
    "Four legs good, two legs bad!" to "Four legs good, two legs *better*!"

    Just for the record, Peter, you would be hard-put to be more wrong about my political positions.

    Since I didn't say anything about them specifically, but only used one illustrative example
    about "the likes of them" [which does not mean "them, personally], you are building a castle in the air.

    Then why did you say "the likes of them" and why did you use that
    specific example? We all know you're a stickler for the fascist right,
    or at the very least an enabler of it. There's no need to pretend otherwise.



    you have no evidence of them, as I've been careful not to introduce them. Nor will I expound on them now.

    Irrelevant.

    Wrong. It is very relevant. You specifically cited Simpson as an example
    of "the likes of them," and then proceeded to expound upon Simpson's
    implicit political positions.

    [snip idiocy[

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to Oxyaena on Fri Sep 10 21:03:56 2021
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 8:31:53 PM UTC-7, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/9/2021 7:31 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:41:18 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/9/2021 10:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 10:48:50 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 9.9.2021. 3:24, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 9:20:57 AM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 8.9.2021. 15:06, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/8/21 6:01 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 8.9.2021. 12:02, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Except in the most obvious cases, [biologists] know better than to try and
    judge that some trait
    is more fit than another. A great deal depends on the environment,
    which is too unpredictable.
    In the last ice age there were gray kangaroos ten feet tall, >>>>>>>>>> because the environment favored large size; today the same species only has six
    foot tall kangaroos, because that is what the environment favors. >>>>>>>>>>
    The Nazis were engaged in a dubious form of artificial selection or
    animal
    husbandry in their Master Race schema. But what they were doing wasn’t
    entirely eugenics. They pivoted to a hygiene model treating certain
    ethnicities as socially detrimental pathogens needing elimination >>>>>>>>> from the
    body politic. That may be an important distinction.

    I don't know much about what you are writing, but my belief >>>>>>>> also is that certain ethnicities (or groups, or types, like >>>>>>>> psychopaths) should be eliminated as a form of hygiene.

    Using whose criteria? Why do you latch onto Jews right away?
    What have they done to you?

    Based on the criteria of the majority. Even if I am not part of that >>>> majority, and even if this "hygiene" applies on me.
    Regarding Jews, aren't they the most notorious example? I mean,
    everybody knows everything about Jews.

    Maybe in your part of Croatia [although I doubt it] but certainly
    not in the USA. The endless harping on the Holocaust -- not that I
    mind most of it, "Schindler's List" was jarring even to me -- drowns out >>> anything negative people here say in the media about Jews.

    Lest there be any misunderstanding: I'm glad I saw "Schindler's List," because it brought home to me the utter inhumanity of the Nazi extermination
    campaign like nothing I saw before -- including the ghastly scenes of actual footage in "Judgment at Nuremberg."

    I have to agree that the Holocaust receives a bit too much attention
    compared to other genocides and atrocities, like the Native American
    Holocaust, or the Naqba when the Zionists ethnically cleansed Palestine >> of almost all of its indigenous people.

    Interesting how you compare the cold blooded murder of millions of Jews with
    the displacement of peoples.
    Interesting how you whitewash the cold-blooded 75+ year long oppression
    of the Palestinian people as "mere ethnic displacement." You've always
    been a piece of shit, Peter, but this is a new low even for you.

    The piece of shit here is the one that added "mere".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From erik simpson@21:1/5 to Oxyaena on Sat Sep 11 08:16:43 2021
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 8:35:15 PM UTC-7, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/10/2021 8:14 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 5:34:02 PM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 12:03:49 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:


    Ironically, it looks like this is one of the few places where the anti-vaxxers have more on the ball than
    the ones who cancel them in social media. They've been harping on this reaction as evidence
    that the virus itself is harmless and it is only the body attacking itself that is the real cause of Covid-19.
    Don't count on Eric or John to really know anything.
    Right, they are more interested in government imposed mandates than in science.
    Biden's hot-off-the-presses plan to "deputize" any employer with 100 or more employees to
    make them "take the jab" is sure to be near and dear their hearts, especially the fact that,
    unlike regular "deputizing," which is voluntary, this one would be like the draft.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/will-joe-biden-e2-80-99s-vaccine-mandate-for-large-companies-have-legal-ramifications/ar-AAOj3Mm?ocid=uxbndlbing

    You know, draft, the thing that elicited draft card burning and "Hell, no, we won't go" in the 60's
    from the likes of them. But their kind of politics is the kind that goes without a hitch from
    "Four legs good, two legs bad!" to "Four legs good, two legs *better*!" >>>
    Just for the record, Peter, you would be hard-put to be more wrong about my political positions.

    Since I didn't say anything about them specifically, but only used one illustrative example
    about "the likes of them" [which does not mean "them, personally], you are building a castle in the air.
    Then why did you say "the likes of them" and why did you use that
    specific example? We all know you're a stickler for the fascist right,
    or at the very least an enabler of it. There's no need to pretend otherwise.


    you have no evidence of them, as I've been careful not to introduce them. Nor will I expound on them now.

    Irrelevant.
    Wrong. It is very relevant. You specifically cited Simpson as an example
    of "the likes of them," and then proceeded to expound upon Simpson's
    implicit political positions.

    [snip idiocy[
    Fret not. It's just Peter.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to erik simpson on Sun Sep 12 19:06:22 2021
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 2:34:02 PM UTC-7, erik simpson wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 12:03:49 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:


    Ironically, it looks like this is one of the few places where the anti-vaxxers have more on the ball than
    the ones who cancel them in social media. They've been harping on this reaction as evidence
    that the virus itself is harmless and it is only the body attacking itself that is the real cause of Covid-19.
    Don't count on Eric or John to really know anything.
    Right, they are more interested in government imposed mandates than in science.
    Biden's hot-off-the-presses plan to "deputize" any employer with 100 or more employees to
    make them "take the jab" is sure to be near and dear their hearts, especially the fact that,
    unlike regular "deputizing," which is voluntary, this one would be like the draft.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/will-joe-biden-e2-80-99s-vaccine-mandate-for-large-companies-have-legal-ramifications/ar-AAOj3Mm?ocid=uxbndlbing

    You know, draft, the thing that elicited draft card burning and "Hell, no, we won't go" in the 60's
    from the likes of them. But their kind of politics is the kind that goes without a hitch from
    "Four legs good, two legs bad!" to "Four legs good, two legs *better*!"

    Just for the record, Peter, you would be hard-put to be more wrong about my political positions. Actually,
    you have no evidence of them, as I've been careful not to introduce them. Nor will I expound on them now.
    Along with your insight into others' "real meanings", you are batting near zero here.

    So you are more interested in "the science" of COVID than in getting everyone vaccinated. Good to know.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jillery@21:1/5 to eastside.erik@gmail.com on Mon Sep 13 06:35:35 2021
    On Sat, 11 Sep 2021 08:16:43 -0700 (PDT), erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 8:35:15 PM UTC-7, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/10/2021 8:14 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 5:34:02 PM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 12:03:49 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote: >> >>

    Ironically, it looks like this is one of the few places where the anti-vaxxers have more on the ball than
    the ones who cancel them in social media. They've been harping on this reaction as evidence
    that the virus itself is harmless and it is only the body attacking itself that is the real cause of Covid-19.
    Don't count on Eric or John to really know anything.
    Right, they are more interested in government imposed mandates than in science.
    Biden's hot-off-the-presses plan to "deputize" any employer with 100 or more employees to
    make them "take the jab" is sure to be near and dear their hearts, especially the fact that,
    unlike regular "deputizing," which is voluntary, this one would be like the draft.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/will-joe-biden-e2-80-99s-vaccine-mandate-for-large-companies-have-legal-ramifications/ar-AAOj3Mm?ocid=uxbndlbing

    You know, draft, the thing that elicited draft card burning and "Hell, no, we won't go" in the 60's
    from the likes of them. But their kind of politics is the kind that goes without a hitch from
    "Four legs good, two legs bad!" to "Four legs good, two legs *better*!" >> >>>
    Just for the record, Peter, you would be hard-put to be more wrong about my political positions.

    Since I didn't say anything about them specifically, but only used one illustrative example
    about "the likes of them" [which does not mean "them, personally], you are building a castle in the air.
    Then why did you say "the likes of them" and why did you use that
    specific example? We all know you're a stickler for the fascist right,
    or at the very least an enabler of it. There's no need to pretend otherwise. >> >

    you have no evidence of them, as I've been careful not to introduce them. Nor will I expound on them now.

    Irrelevant.
    Wrong. It is very relevant. You specifically cited Simpson as an example
    of "the likes of them," and then proceeded to expound upon Simpson's
    implicit political positions.

    [snip idiocy[
    Fret not. It's just Peter.


    Imagine that, an off-topic topic about Covid-19 in sbp, with allusions
    to non-participating posters, and a poster raising issues unrelated to
    sbp, the topic, or anything anybody said in it, and parroting mindless
    made-up crap about AOTA. I just can't imagine who would be so
    willfully stupid as to do any of these things, nevermind all of them
    at once.

    FTR, although the human body's immune system causes a lot of the
    damage related to Covid-19, especially in the lungs, it is not true
    that CoV-2 itself is "harmless". As with other infectious viruses,
    CoV-2 ultimately triggers apoptosis aka cell death, to release the
    newly formed viruses into the system and infect other cells.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mario Petrinovic@21:1/5 to jillery on Mon Sep 13 20:29:08 2021
    On 13.9.2021. 12:35, jillery wrote:
    On Sat, 11 Sep 2021 08:16:43 -0700 (PDT), erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 8:35:15 PM UTC-7, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/10/2021 8:14 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 5:34:02 PM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote: >>>>> On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 12:03:49 PM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote: >>>>>

    Ironically, it looks like this is one of the few places where the anti-vaxxers have more on the ball than
    the ones who cancel them in social media. They've been harping on this reaction as evidence
    that the virus itself is harmless and it is only the body attacking itself that is the real cause of Covid-19.
    Don't count on Eric or John to really know anything.
    Right, they are more interested in government imposed mandates than in science.
    Biden's hot-off-the-presses plan to "deputize" any employer with 100 or more employees to
    make them "take the jab" is sure to be near and dear their hearts, especially the fact that,
    unlike regular "deputizing," which is voluntary, this one would be like the draft.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/will-joe-biden-e2-80-99s-vaccine-mandate-for-large-companies-have-legal-ramifications/ar-AAOj3Mm?ocid=uxbndlbing

    You know, draft, the thing that elicited draft card burning and "Hell, no, we won't go" in the 60's
    from the likes of them. But their kind of politics is the kind that goes without a hitch from
    "Four legs good, two legs bad!" to "Four legs good, two legs *better*!" >>>>>>
    Just for the record, Peter, you would be hard-put to be more wrong about my political positions.

    Since I didn't say anything about them specifically, but only used one illustrative example
    about "the likes of them" [which does not mean "them, personally], you are building a castle in the air.
    Then why did you say "the likes of them" and why did you use that
    specific example? We all know you're a stickler for the fascist right,
    or at the very least an enabler of it. There's no need to pretend otherwise.


    you have no evidence of them, as I've been careful not to introduce them. Nor will I expound on them now.

    Irrelevant.
    Wrong. It is very relevant. You specifically cited Simpson as an example >>> of "the likes of them," and then proceeded to expound upon Simpson's
    implicit political positions.

    [snip idiocy[
    Fret not. It's just Peter.


    Imagine that, an off-topic topic about Covid-19 in sbp, with allusions
    to non-participating posters, and a poster raising issues unrelated to
    sbp, the topic, or anything anybody said in it, and parroting mindless made-up crap about AOTA. I just can't imagine who would be so
    willfully stupid as to do any of these things, nevermind all of them
    at once.

    FTR, although the human body's immune system causes a lot of the
    damage related to Covid-19, especially in the lungs, it is not true
    that CoV-2 itself is "harmless". As with other infectious viruses,
    CoV-2 ultimately triggers apoptosis aka cell death, to release the
    newly formed viruses into the system and infect other cells.

    Don't you say?
    A cow, when it farts, attributes to global warming, it produces a
    greenhouse gas, methane.
    Where from you fell off? Jesus Christ.

    --
    https://groups.google.com/g/human-evolution
    human-evolution@googlegroups.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to All on Wed Sep 15 18:59:32 2021
    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 6:35:41 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:

    That's the "jillery" [one-person?] organization posting: I'd recognize that 69jp anywhere, despite the masking.

    And, unlike Glenn, "jillery" gave no source for the following hypothesis:

    FTR, although the human body's immune system causes a lot of the
    damage related to Covid-19, especially in the lungs, it is not true
    that CoV-2 itself is "harmless". As with other infectious viruses,
    CoV-2 ultimately triggers apoptosis aka cell death, to release the
    newly formed viruses into the system and infect other cells.

    That's what Harshman said in different words, about "lytic mode," except
    that he had to retract and say that he didn't think anyone knows
    how the coronavirus does major damage to the body.

    In fact, I've only heard of the lytic mode in bacteriophages. Can anyone reading this find an example in a virus that infects a eukaryote? an animal?
    a vertebrate? a mammal? a primate?

    Of course, the issue of the moment is one that infects Homo sapiens,
    but this being sci.bio.paleontology, our species is very small in the
    grand scheme of things.


    Peter Nyikos
    Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
    University of So. Carolina at Columbia
    http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jillery@21:1/5 to peter2nyikos@gmail.com on Thu Sep 16 02:25:28 2021
    On Wed, 15 Sep 2021 18:59:32 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
    <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 6:35:41 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:

    That's the "jillery" [one-person?] organization posting: I'd recognize that >69jp anywhere, despite the masking.


    That's the willfully stupid mindless noise generator called the peter,
    which he posts because he knows he has no idea what he's talking
    about.


    And, unlike Glenn, "jillery" gave no source for the following hypothesis:


    And here's another example, where the complains about jillery's "no
    source" while saying nothing about his own lack of source.

    And Glenn isn't involved in this thread. jillery's post was a reply
    to Eric, which was a reply to Oxyaena, which was a reply to the peter,
    the willfully stupid mindless noise generator.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From erik simpson@21:1/5 to 69jp...@gmail.com on Thu Sep 16 08:08:05 2021
    On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 11:25:34 PM UTC-7, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Sep 2021 18:59:32 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
    <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 6:35:41 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:

    That's the "jillery" [one-person?] organization posting: I'd recognize that >69jp anywhere, despite the masking.
    That's the willfully stupid mindless noise generator called the peter,
    which he posts because he knows he has no idea what he's talking
    about.
    And, unlike Glenn, "jillery" gave no source for the following hypothesis: And here's another example, where the complains about jillery's "no
    source" while saying nothing about his own lack of source.

    And Glenn isn't involved in this thread. jillery's post was a reply
    to Eric, which was a reply to Oxyaena, which was a reply to the peter,
    the willfully stupid mindless noise generator.

    Peter seems to be talking to Mario, or maybe Glenn. He's been a little confused lately.
    How long has he been working on the theory that you are multiple?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Thu Sep 16 08:10:09 2021
    On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 9:21:02 PM UTC-7, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 9:15 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 6:01, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 2.9.2021. 5:47, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 22:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/1/21 11:07 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 18:56, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 11:48 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 1.9.2021. 3:12, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/31/21 9:30 AM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 17:00, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:40 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:39, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 7:34 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 4:18, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    On 31.8.2021. 3:01, John Harshman wrote:
    On 8/30/21 2:59 PM, Mario Petrinovic wrote:
    Vaccinate your babies, and fill up your
    hospitals when they grow old.
    Grow less and less old, with every new generation. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He, who didn't manage to understand the
    Evolution, after 150 years of the research, he has to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get it the hard way.
    Ah, what can you do.

    In contrast to your usual nonsense, this sort of thing is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actively dangerous, or would be if you managed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convince anyone of it.

    Jesus Christ.

    My advice to you, *never* inject anything into
    your body. Injection bypasses all the defense mechanisms, >>>>>>>>>>>>> when you inject something, your body doesn't have a chance >>>>>>>>>>>>> to react to it, you surrendered your body, flat down. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    I am disinclined to follow any advice you might ever have >>>>>>>>>>>> for me. Fortunately.

    Yes, but bypassing defense mechanisms is the thing
    that is dangerous.

    Yes, and those mRNA vaccines change your DNA and make you >>>>>>>>>> magnetic.

    Well, that's your theory.

    Is this really all about injection? That's a completely
    different justification from your previous one. Do you object to >>>>>>>> dental anesthetic? Do you endorse oral vaccines such as the one >>>>>>>> for polio?

    No, it isn't about injection, it is about vaccination. I
    just mentioned what you do when you put a needle in your body. >>>>>>> This is the purpose of needle (I presume), to bypass your defense >>>>>>> mechanism.
    I would to it, with a pine needle, to burst a cyst. But
    other than that, no.

    Now I'm curious: why a pine needle specifically? Why not a rusty >>>>>> nail or a toothpick?

    Because this was how we always did this.
    You think that the world should be sterile, otherwise you
    are unable to live in it? I have a surprise for you, the world
    isn't sterile, and if you are unable to live in the world as it is, >>>>> well, too bad for you.

    That's just nonsensical. The world as it is includes lions, yet I
    refrain from stepping out in front of them while wearing a pork chop >>>> around my neck. The world as it is includes steep cliffs, yet I
    refrain from walking straight off them just because I'm going in
    that direction.

    I will also point out that vaccines do nothing except introduce
    antigens into your blood just like those present in live pathogens.
    They don't weaken your immune system. They stimulate it in exactly
    the same way those pathogens would. They certainly don't weaken your >>>> immune system or encourage weakness. Just the opposite.

    The world, as it is, includes pine needles. It doesn't
    include sterile equipment.
    So, there are two ways to do it, with a pine needle, or with
    sterile equipment. To do the first, you just find a pine needle. To
    do the second, you just...
    In Evolution the key word is "efficiency". He, who is
    efficient, he wins. So, I can, either, use pine needles, and the rest
    leave for my body to deal with, or I can use a lot more energy, and
    equipment, to do *the same thing*. I refuse to do things the second
    way, I have to be efficient to survive.
    The whole world had bubonic plague. The whole world, except
    India. Why?
    And, regarding vaccination, your analogy is excellent.
    Vaccination introduces antigens into your blood, that work "just
    like" the real things. Like a boxer, who is using a boxing bag to
    train and be strong. Well, I have news for you, boxing bag isn't
    enough. It *has to be* a live opponent.
    I mean, all the newest research show that the problem with
    Covid-19 is in our immune system, not in virus. It is used to boxing
    bags, not to the real things. Boxing bags don't fight back.
    They say that somebody who was ill and not vaccinated, and
    survived, has 7 times better immunity than the one who was
    vaccinated. I mean, there is a reason for it. It is hard to prove the
    reason. Scientists behave like they are idiots, if it isn't proven,
    it doesn't happen. They behave so stupidly, like they are 6 years old. >>> This isn't a game.

    I have to add this. Throughout our evolution we used the
    system that gave 7 times better immunity than vaccination. A lot of us
    died using this system , but the ones who survived, they had good and
    strong immune system. Then we introduced the system which gave us 7
    times weaker immune system, but we all survived. At first. And now we
    stopped to all survive. And we have problems. Our whole health care
    system simply collapsed. I mean, don't you see what is happening
    around you? People walk around with muzzles on their months. You say,
    we can do it. I say, go to hell. I'll rather die. This isn't a life a
    dignified animal should live. I am a human, for god's sake. But, I
    don't look very much like it, with this muzzle on my mouth.
    What's next? You say, you use sterile equipment, because you
    can. Will we walk around this planet in a space suit, because we can?
    Because you say that you have a better system than the Nature already
    evolved. So, why you are walking around this world with this muzzle on
    your mouth?

    So, I'd rather use a pine needle than your sterile equipment.
    And yes, it will be bad for me, because I have more chance to die that
    way. But, this way it would be much better for *us*, because, for sure, *we* will survive, the society will survive, the strongest *will*
    survive, for sure.
    So, I am suggesting to this society, whoever is using sterile
    equipment, just stone him. He is a selfish idiot, who doesn't think what this will mean for society, he only thinks what this will mean for him,
    he doesn't care about the society. Society should stone those people, if
    it is a smart society, led my smart old men, not by playful young idiots.

    To anyone who may be reading this, if indeed there is anyone: I
    apologize for poking him. I will stop now.

    You never stop. You only occasionally refrain from posting.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to erik simpson on Thu Sep 16 08:16:15 2021
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 8:08:06 AM UTC-7, erik simpson wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 11:25:34 PM UTC-7, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Sep 2021 18:59:32 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 6:35:41 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:

    That's the "jillery" [one-person?] organization posting: I'd recognize that
    69jp anywhere, despite the masking.
    That's the willfully stupid mindless noise generator called the peter, which he posts because he knows he has no idea what he's talking
    about.
    And, unlike Glenn, "jillery" gave no source for the following hypothesis: And here's another example, where the complains about jillery's "no
    source" while saying nothing about his own lack of source.

    And Glenn isn't involved in this thread. jillery's post was a reply
    to Eric, which was a reply to Oxyaena, which was a reply to the peter,
    the willfully stupid mindless noise generator.
    Peter seems to be talking to Mario, or maybe Glenn. He's been a little confused lately.
    How long has he been working on the theory that you are multiple?

    'That said, I'm through with this thread as it's going nowhere interesting. "

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jillery@21:1/5 to eastside.erik@gmail.com on Thu Sep 16 11:51:30 2021
    On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:08:05 -0700 (PDT), erik simpson <eastside.erik@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 11:25:34 PM UTC-7, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Sep 2021 18:59:32 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
    <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 6:35:41 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:

    That's the "jillery" [one-person?] organization posting: I'd recognize that
    69jp anywhere, despite the masking.
    That's the willfully stupid mindless noise generator called the peter,
    which he posts because he knows he has no idea what he's talking
    about.
    And, unlike Glenn, "jillery" gave no source for the following hypothesis: >> And here's another example, where the peter complains about jillery's "no >> source" while saying nothing about his own lack of source.

    And Glenn isn't involved in this thread. jillery's post was a reply
    to Eric, which was a reply to Oxyaena, which was a reply to the peter,
    the willfully stupid mindless noise generator.

    Peter seems to be talking to Mario, or maybe Glenn. He's been a little confused lately.
    How long has he been working on the theory that you are multiple?


    Lately??? I would go along with "even more confused", although this
    may be yet another case of his satirical self-parodies.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Thu Sep 16 08:40:53 2021
    On 9/15/21 6:59 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 6:35:41 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:

    That's the "jillery" [one-person?] organization posting: I'd recognize that 69jp anywhere, despite the masking.

    And, unlike Glenn, "jillery" gave no source for the following hypothesis:

    FTR, although the human body's immune system causes a lot of the
    damage related to Covid-19, especially in the lungs, it is not true
    that CoV-2 itself is "harmless". As with other infectious viruses,
    CoV-2 ultimately triggers apoptosis aka cell death, to release the
    newly formed viruses into the system and infect other cells.

    That's what Harshman said in different words, about "lytic mode," except
    that he had to retract and say that he didn't think anyone knows
    how the coronavirus does major damage to the body.

    In fact, I've only heard of the lytic mode in bacteriophages. Can anyone reading this find an example in a virus that infects a eukaryote? an animal? a vertebrate? a mammal? a primate?

    Are you not capable of googling?

    Here's the first site I found: https://viralzone.expasy.org/1077

    Yes, many of the viruses mentioned infect humans, which you should
    easily be able to discover, by following the internal links if in no
    othe way.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to erik simpson on Thu Sep 16 09:04:39 2021
    Erik just keeps on showing his true colors. He can't help himself.

    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 11:08:06 AM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 11:25:34 PM UTC-7, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Sep 2021 18:59:32 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 6:35:41 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:

    That's the "jillery" [one-person?] organization posting: I'd recognize that
    69jp anywhere, despite the masking.
    That's the willfully stupid mindless noise generator called the peter, which he posts because he knows he has no idea what he's talking
    about.
    And, unlike Glenn, "jillery" gave no source for the following hypothesis:

    And jillery snipped the hypothesis, and launched into an orgy
    of character assassination, beginning with:

    And here's another example, where the complains about jillery's "no
    source" while saying nothing about his own lack of source.

    Glenn provided a source, right on this thread:

    https://theconversation.com/what-the-coronavirus-does-to-your-body-that-makes-it-so-deadly-133856

    It gives the only hypothesis anyone has found for why the coronavirus causes
    so much damage: the cause is indirect. The victim's immune system goes haywire and begins an often suicidal autoimmune response.

    And Glenn isn't involved in this thread. jillery's post was a reply
    to Eric, which was a reply to Oxyaena, which was a reply to the peter,
    the willfully stupid mindless noise generator.

    That last line is pure mindless trolling, equaled only by JTEM in my experience.
    Even Oxyaena doesn't lie her head off about me like that, only about individual on topic, insightful comments of mine as in, "[snip mindless bullshit"]

    Peter seems to be talking to Mario, or maybe Glenn. He's been a little confused lately.

    Datum: Erik is licking the boots of jillery, and projecting his own confusion onto me.

    As is always the case when I post exclusively in the third person, I am speaking
    to the general readership. That is because I am trying to convey the truth, something about which Erik has shown he doesn't care. [Keywords: misleading reporting,
    *Nature* affiliate on *Nature* article].

    And so, when I replied to jillery, I skipped all the character assassination by
    jillery, Erik, and Oxyaena, and went to the on-topic part of the post. And what you
    see up there from jillery is a cowardly and deceitful evasion of the very thing jillery's FTR was about.

    My on-topic questions about her FTR had to do with, successively, eukaryotes, animals,
    vertebrates, and primates, with obvious relevance to us humans.

    I gave a hint to Glenn last week about the topic of an upcoming thread,

    "Ancient boronaviruses and modern vaccines"

    in which the word "Ancient" is the key to why it is on topic
    to talk about the coronaviruses the way I have been doing.
    It refers to viruses that produced their effects on vertebrates,
    and indirectly via evolution on us humans, many millions of years ago.

    The thread has been delayed because, as I was continuing my research on the topic
    last weekend, I realized that it is a topic with many facets that I hadn't learned about
    before, and I have to put a lot more thought into it. Perhaps it will only be delayed
    a week, perhaps longer.


    How long has he been working on the theory that you are multiple?

    Ever since "jillery" stepped up talking about "jillery" in the third person, a number
    of months back.

    And Erik is simulating amnesia about there being a precedent, "Siren", for three women posting under the same moniker and using the same email address.

    As usual, Erik is more interested in character assassination than the truth about
    the "FTR" of "jillery." Who cares whether "jillery" was bullshitting? Not Erik, that's for sure.


    Peter Nyikos
    Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
    Univ. of South Carolina at Columbia
    http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Thu Sep 16 09:47:17 2021
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 9:04:40 AM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    Erik just keeps on showing his true colors. He can't help himself.
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 11:08:06 AM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 11:25:34 PM UTC-7, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Sep 2021 18:59:32 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 6:35:41 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:

    That's the "jillery" [one-person?] organization posting: I'd recognize that
    69jp anywhere, despite the masking.
    That's the willfully stupid mindless noise generator called the peter, which he posts because he knows he has no idea what he's talking
    about.
    And, unlike Glenn, "jillery" gave no source for the following hypothesis:
    And jillery snipped the hypothesis, and launched into an orgy
    of character assassination, beginning with:
    And here's another example, where the complains about jillery's "no source" while saying nothing about his own lack of source.
    Glenn provided a source, right on this thread:

    https://theconversation.com/what-the-coronavirus-does-to-your-body-that-makes-it-so-deadly-133856

    It gives the only hypothesis anyone has found for why the coronavirus causes so much damage: the cause is indirect. The victim's immune system goes haywire
    and begins an often suicidal autoimmune response.
    And Glenn isn't involved in this thread. jillery's post was a reply
    to Eric, which was a reply to Oxyaena, which was a reply to the peter, the willfully stupid mindless noise generator.
    That last line is pure mindless trolling, equaled only by JTEM in my experience.
    Even Oxyaena doesn't lie her head off about me like that, only about individual
    on topic, insightful comments of mine as in, "[snip mindless bullshit"]
    Peter seems to be talking to Mario, or maybe Glenn. He's been a little confused lately.
    Datum: Erik is licking the boots of jillery, and projecting his own confusion onto me.

    As is always the case when I post exclusively in the third person, I am speaking
    to the general readership. That is because I am trying to convey the truth, something about which Erik has shown he doesn't care. [Keywords: misleading reporting,
    *Nature* affiliate on *Nature* article].

    And so, when I replied to jillery, I skipped all the character assassination by
    jillery, Erik, and Oxyaena, and went to the on-topic part of the post. And what you
    see up there from jillery is a cowardly and deceitful evasion of the very thing
    jillery's FTR was about.

    My on-topic questions about her FTR had to do with, successively, eukaryotes, animals,
    vertebrates, and primates, with obvious relevance to us humans.

    I gave a hint to Glenn last week about the topic of an upcoming thread,

    "Ancient boronaviruses and modern vaccines"

    in which the word "Ancient" is the key to why it is on topic
    to talk about the coronaviruses the way I have been doing.
    It refers to viruses that produced their effects on vertebrates,
    and indirectly via evolution on us humans, many millions of years ago.

    The thread has been delayed because, as I was continuing my research on the topic
    last weekend, I realized that it is a topic with many facets that I hadn't learned about
    before, and I have to put a lot more thought into it. Perhaps it will only be delayed
    a week, perhaps longer.
    How long has he been working on the theory that you are multiple?
    Ever since "jillery" stepped up talking about "jillery" in the third person, a number
    of months back.

    And Erik is simulating amnesia about there being a precedent, "Siren", for three women posting under the same moniker and using the same email address.

    I really don't know where you get the idea that jillery is a female, let alone three with the same testosterone fulled bullshit.

    As usual, Erik is more interested in character assassination than the truth about
    the "FTR" of "jillery." Who cares whether "jillery" was bullshitting? Not Erik, that's for sure.

    What is most interesting about Erik is his apparent ignorance of his hypocrisies.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Thu Sep 16 09:27:11 2021
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 11:41:00 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/15/21 6:59 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 6:35:41 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:

    That's the "jillery" [one-person?] organization posting: I'd recognize that 69jp anywhere, despite the masking.

    And, unlike Glenn, "jillery" gave no source for the following hypothesis:

    FTR, although the human body's immune system causes a lot of the
    damage related to Covid-19, especially in the lungs, it is not true
    that CoV-2 itself is "harmless". As with other infectious viruses,
    CoV-2 ultimately triggers apoptosis aka cell death, to release the
    newly formed viruses into the system and infect other cells.

    That's what Harshman said in different words, about "lytic mode," except that he had to retract and say that he didn't think anyone knows
    how the coronavirus does major damage to the body.

    In fact, I've only heard of the lytic mode in bacteriophages. Can anyone reading this find an example in a virus that infects a eukaryote? an animal?
    a vertebrate? a mammal? a primate?

    Here you licked the boots of jillery in a more subtle and indirect way
    than your perennial sidekick Erik Simpson did:

    Are you not capable of googling?

    What hypocrisy! On a thread about the pre-Cambrian *Dickinsonia,* you trolled that you had no idea how to find photographs in which its fossils
    had bud-like growths like the one an author hypothesized
    to be a true example of budding, hence eliminating some contenders
    for extant sister group.

    Or did you just intend to troll that you didn't know how to find a peer reviewed
    paper that mentioned them, but worded what you wrote clumsily?

    I told your sidekick that I had the impression that you weren't at all interested in discussing Dickinsonia, because I very quickly found a peer-reviewed article that mentioned them and showed them.

    "What Harshman doesn't know can't hurt him," and so you ignored that post.

    Here's the first site I found: https://viralzone.expasy.org/1077

    It does get as far as mentioning some unspecified vertebrates.
    That still leaves two groups I mentioned, mammals and primates, to go.


    Yes, many of the viruses mentioned infect humans,

    lysing their cells? Or only being related to viruses that have a lysing effect on other organisms?


    which you should
    easily be able to discover, by following the internal links if in no
    othe way.

    Your optimism is in stunning contrast to your earlier behavior wrt Dickinsonia earlier this summer. But then, I've already known for a decade that you
    are addicted to double standards.


    Peter Nyikos
    Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
    Univ. of South Carolina in Columbia
    http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

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  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to 69jp...@gmail.com on Thu Sep 16 09:52:12 2021
    As expected in Thread Diluting Kaffeeklatsches like the one in which Erik and jillery
    are indulging, jillery demonstrates a JTEM-level fondness for trolling.

    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 11:51:36 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:08:05 -0700 (PDT), erik simpson
    <eastsi...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 11:25:34 PM UTC-7, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Sep 2021 18:59:32 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
    <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 6:35:41 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:

    That's the "jillery" [one-person?] organization posting: I'd recognize that
    69jp anywhere, despite the masking.
    That's the willfully stupid mindless noise generator called the peter,
    which he posts because he knows he has no idea what he's talking
    about.

    I know plenty about what I was talking about, the speculation about
    the coronavirus which Harshman had second thoughts about.

    Jillery deleted all sign of what that was about, and either demonstrated
    that jillery knew that jillery had no idea of what jillery was talking about, or else wanted people to know that jillery can troll on a level
    that I have only known JTEM to troll.

    And, unlike Glenn, "jillery" gave no source for the following hypothesis:

    And here's another example, where the peter complains about jillery's "no >> source" while saying nothing about his own lack of source.

    This self-serving falsehood was refuted in reply to Erik.

    And, like a true troll, jillery used this falsehood as an excuse for
    not divulging the [probably nonexistent] source for the FTR comment,
    which jillery deleted in order to hide the superlative nature of
    the multiple trolling that you see here.


    And Glenn isn't involved in this thread.

    Glenn was involved, but jillery is here trying to impose her nonstandard use of "thread" on s.b.p.
    It is generally accepted to be like a phylogenetic tree with its root at the OP,
    but to jillery it only means a single lineage which goes back as far as jillery chooses it to go.


    jillery's post was a reply
    to Eric, which was a reply to Oxyaena, which was a reply to the peter,
    the willfully stupid mindless noise generator.

    Peter seems to be talking to Mario, or maybe Glenn. He's been a little confused lately.
    How long has he been working on the theory that you are multiple?

    All of the above was amply explained in my reply to Erik, but jillery and Erik can be expected to play the game of "What jillery and Erik don't know can't hurt them."


    Lately??? I would go along with "even more confused", although this
    may be yet another case of his satirical self-parodies.

    This JTEM-level trolling will be shown to be on that level for anyone
    who replies directly to this post, without deleting anything in it.


    Peter Nyikos

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  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Thu Sep 16 10:22:17 2021
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 9:27:12 AM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 11:41:00 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/15/21 6:59 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 6:35:41 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:

    That's the "jillery" [one-person?] organization posting: I'd recognize that
    69jp anywhere, despite the masking.

    And, unlike Glenn, "jillery" gave no source for the following hypothesis:

    FTR, although the human body's immune system causes a lot of the
    damage related to Covid-19, especially in the lungs, it is not true
    that CoV-2 itself is "harmless". As with other infectious viruses,
    CoV-2 ultimately triggers apoptosis aka cell death, to release the
    newly formed viruses into the system and infect other cells.

    That's what Harshman said in different words, about "lytic mode," except that he had to retract and say that he didn't think anyone knows
    how the coronavirus does major damage to the body.

    In fact, I've only heard of the lytic mode in bacteriophages. Can anyone reading this find an example in a virus that infects a eukaryote? an animal?
    a vertebrate? a mammal? a primate?
    Here you licked the boots of jillery in a more subtle and indirect way
    than your perennial sidekick Erik Simpson did:
    Are you not capable of googling?
    What hypocrisy! On a thread about the pre-Cambrian *Dickinsonia,* you trolled
    that you had no idea how to find photographs in which its fossils
    had bud-like growths like the one an author hypothesized
    to be a true example of budding, hence eliminating some contenders
    for extant sister group.

    Or did you just intend to troll that you didn't know how to find a peer reviewed
    paper that mentioned them, but worded what you wrote clumsily?

    I told your sidekick that I had the impression that you weren't at all interested in discussing Dickinsonia, because I very quickly found a peer-reviewed article that mentioned them and showed them.

    "What Harshman doesn't know can't hurt him," and so you ignored that post.
    Here's the first site I found: https://viralzone.expasy.org/1077
    It does get as far as mentioning some unspecified vertebrates.
    That still leaves two groups I mentioned, mammals and primates, to go.
    Yes, many of the viruses mentioned infect humans,
    lysing their cells? Or only being related to viruses that have a lysing effect
    on other organisms?
    which you should
    easily be able to discover, by following the internal links if in no
    othe way.
    Your optimism is in stunning contrast to your earlier behavior wrt Dickinsonia
    earlier this summer. But then, I've already known for a decade that you
    are addicted to double standards.

    John's scrap throwing got me to this:

    "Aligned to this, it has been recently suggested, as a complementary treatment, to provide fish oil lipid emulsions to hospitalized COVID-19 patients, as eicosapentaenoic (EPA) and docosahexaenoic (DHA) acids attenuate cytokine storm by peroxisome
    proliferator activated receptor, they are precursors of maresins, resolvins and protectins (i.e. inflammatory resolution mediators) and can disrupt lipid rafts [18]. Therefore, diet may also integrate the set of strategies to fight back against COVID-19."

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7568049/

    But to get back on track with what I think your question is, whether the Cov virus itself kills cells to release more of itself,

    "The manner in which new virus particles are released is not like the “burst size” of lytic bacteriophage, which are released from infected bacteria by lysing or “bursting” out from the host cell and killing them. Newly formed COVID-19 virus
    particles are released from infected cells by continuously “budding” new virions from the surface of infected host cells without killing them."

    https://extension.okstate.edu/fact-sheets/coronavirus-sars-cov-2-and-the-covid-19-pandemic-what-is-it-and-how-does-it-spread.html

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  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to Glenn on Thu Sep 16 10:28:31 2021
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 12:47:18 PM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 9:04:40 AM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    Erik just keeps on showing his true colors. He can't help himself.
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 11:08:06 AM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 11:25:34 PM UTC-7, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Sep 2021 18:59:32 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 6:35:41 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:

    That's the "jillery" [one-person?] organization posting: I'd recognize that
    69jp anywhere, despite the masking.
    That's the willfully stupid mindless noise generator called the peter, which he posts because he knows he has no idea what he's talking
    about.
    And, unlike Glenn, "jillery" gave no source for the following hypothesis:
    And jillery snipped the hypothesis, and launched into an orgy
    of character assassination, beginning with:
    And here's another example, where the complains about jillery's "no source" while saying nothing about his own lack of source.

    Glenn provided a source, right on this thread:

    https://theconversation.com/what-the-coronavirus-does-to-your-body-that-makes-it-so-deadly-133856

    It gives the only hypothesis anyone has found for why the coronavirus causes
    so much damage: the cause is indirect. The victim's immune system goes haywire
    and begins an often suicidal autoimmune response.

    And Glenn isn't involved in this thread. jillery's post was a reply
    to Eric, which was a reply to Oxyaena, which was a reply to the peter, the willfully stupid mindless noise generator.

    That last line is pure mindless trolling, equaled only by JTEM in my experience.
    Even Oxyaena doesn't lie her head off about me like that, only about individual
    on topic, insightful comments of mine as in, "[snip mindless bullshit]".

    Peter seems to be talking to Mario, or maybe Glenn. He's been a little confused lately.
    Datum: Erik is licking the boots of jillery, and projecting his own confusion onto me.

    As is always the case when I post exclusively in the third person, I am speaking
    to the general readership. That is because I am trying to convey the truth, something about which Erik has shown he doesn't care. [Keywords: misleading reporting,
    *Nature* affiliate on *Nature* article].

    And so, when I replied to jillery, I skipped all the character assassination by
    jillery, Erik, and Oxyaena, and went to the on-topic part of the post. And what you
    see up there from jillery is a cowardly and deceitful evasion of the very thing
    jillery's FTR was about.

    My on-topic questions about her FTR had to do with, successively, eukaryotes, animals,
    vertebrates, and primates, with obvious relevance to us humans.

    I gave a hint to Glenn last week about the topic of an upcoming thread,

    "Ancient boronaviruses and modern vaccines"

    in which the word "Ancient" is the key to why it is on topic
    to talk about the coronaviruses the way I have been doing.
    It refers to viruses that produced their effects on vertebrates,
    and indirectly via evolution on us humans, many millions of years ago.

    The thread has been delayed because, as I was continuing my research on the topic
    last weekend, I realized that it is a topic with many facets that I hadn't learned about
    before, and I have to put a lot more thought into it. Perhaps it will only be delayed
    a week, perhaps longer.

    How long has he been working on the theory that you are multiple?

    Ever since "jillery" stepped up talking about "jillery" in the third person, a number
    of months back.

    And Erik is simulating amnesia about there being a precedent, "Siren", for three women posting under the same moniker and using the same email address.

    I really don't know where you get the idea that jillery is a female, let alone three with the same testosterone fulled bullshit.

    Good point. Since many transgenders [1] have a they/them preference, I think
    it would be a good idea to use that for "jillery" from now on.

    [1] in the broad sense: anyone who doesn't mind being referred to by a pronoun for the opposite sex, biologically speaking.

    I don't try to estimate how many people "jillery" is, but the tremendous range of infantile bullshit - - - - - - - - - cunning propaganda is something I have never seen
    in any other person. Not that I rule it out; for instance, jillery's could be
    a case of multiple personality syndrome. Or jillery may have arrived at it
    by continually getting in touch with her internal six-year-old smart-alecky child from time to time while getting on with the business of specializing
    in propaganda techniques in service of some leftist organization.

    Anyway, jillery's frequent use of the third person for jillery may be so
    that if one member of "jillery" is sued, the other[s] can more easily
    extricate themselves from full blame for the defendant's behaviour [British spelling here.]


    As usual, Erik is more interested in character assassination than the truth about
    the "FTR" of "jillery." Who cares whether "jillery" was bullshitting? Not Erik, that's for sure.

    What is most interesting about Erik is his apparent ignorance of his hypocrisies.

    Good point. I can't recall Erik accusing me or anyone else of hypocrisy.

    However, you've hit upon one reason why I've given Erik the superlative,

    "Most disingenuously dishonest regular in talk.origins"

    He conforms to that superlative here in s.b.p., too, but the competition
    is vastly greater in talk.origins.

    There are six other superlatives in talk.origins that I have mentioned periodically,
    for four years at least by now. The only one that has actually changed "owners" is:

    "Most condescendingly dishonest regular in talk.origins"

    Long held by Casanova, it has found a slightly more superlative practitioner in Burkhard.


    Peter Nyikos

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Thu Sep 16 10:36:30 2021
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 10:28:32 AM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 12:47:18 PM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 9:04:40 AM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    Erik just keeps on showing his true colors. He can't help himself.
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 11:08:06 AM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 11:25:34 PM UTC-7, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Sep 2021 18:59:32 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 6:35:41 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:

    That's the "jillery" [one-person?] organization posting: I'd recognize that
    69jp anywhere, despite the masking.
    That's the willfully stupid mindless noise generator called the peter,
    which he posts because he knows he has no idea what he's talking about.
    And, unlike Glenn, "jillery" gave no source for the following hypothesis:
    And jillery snipped the hypothesis, and launched into an orgy
    of character assassination, beginning with:
    And here's another example, where the complains about jillery's "no source" while saying nothing about his own lack of source.

    Glenn provided a source, right on this thread:

    https://theconversation.com/what-the-coronavirus-does-to-your-body-that-makes-it-so-deadly-133856

    It gives the only hypothesis anyone has found for why the coronavirus causes
    so much damage: the cause is indirect. The victim's immune system goes haywire
    and begins an often suicidal autoimmune response.

    And Glenn isn't involved in this thread. jillery's post was a reply to Eric, which was a reply to Oxyaena, which was a reply to the peter,
    the willfully stupid mindless noise generator.

    That last line is pure mindless trolling, equaled only by JTEM in my experience.
    Even Oxyaena doesn't lie her head off about me like that, only about individual
    on topic, insightful comments of mine as in, "[snip mindless bullshit]".
    Peter seems to be talking to Mario, or maybe Glenn. He's been a little confused lately.
    Datum: Erik is licking the boots of jillery, and projecting his own confusion onto me.

    As is always the case when I post exclusively in the third person, I am speaking
    to the general readership. That is because I am trying to convey the truth,
    something about which Erik has shown he doesn't care. [Keywords: misleading reporting,
    *Nature* affiliate on *Nature* article].

    And so, when I replied to jillery, I skipped all the character assassination by
    jillery, Erik, and Oxyaena, and went to the on-topic part of the post. And what you
    see up there from jillery is a cowardly and deceitful evasion of the very thing
    jillery's FTR was about.

    My on-topic questions about her FTR had to do with, successively, eukaryotes, animals,
    vertebrates, and primates, with obvious relevance to us humans.

    I gave a hint to Glenn last week about the topic of an upcoming thread,

    "Ancient boronaviruses and modern vaccines"

    in which the word "Ancient" is the key to why it is on topic
    to talk about the coronaviruses the way I have been doing.
    It refers to viruses that produced their effects on vertebrates,
    and indirectly via evolution on us humans, many millions of years ago.

    The thread has been delayed because, as I was continuing my research on the topic
    last weekend, I realized that it is a topic with many facets that I hadn't learned about
    before, and I have to put a lot more thought into it. Perhaps it will only be delayed
    a week, perhaps longer.

    How long has he been working on the theory that you are multiple?

    Ever since "jillery" stepped up talking about "jillery" in the third person, a number
    of months back.

    And Erik is simulating amnesia about there being a precedent, "Siren", for
    three women posting under the same moniker and using the same email address.

    I really don't know where you get the idea that jillery is a female, let alone three with the same testosterone fulled bullshit.
    Good point. Since many transgenders [1] have a they/them preference, I think it would be a good idea to use that for "jillery" from now on.

    [1] in the broad sense: anyone who doesn't mind being referred to by a pronoun
    for the opposite sex, biologically speaking.

    I don't try to estimate how many people "jillery" is, but the tremendous range
    of infantile bullshit - - - - - - - - - cunning propaganda is something I have never seen
    in any other person. Not that I rule it out; for instance, jillery's could be a case of multiple personality syndrome. Or jillery may have arrived at it
    by continually getting in touch with her internal six-year-old smart-alecky child from time to time while getting on with the business of specializing
    in propaganda techniques in service of some leftist organization.

    Anyway, jillery's frequent use of the third person for jillery may be so
    that if one member of "jillery" is sued, the other[s] can more easily extricate themselves from full blame for the defendant's behaviour [British spelling here.]
    As usual, Erik is more interested in character assassination than the truth about
    the "FTR" of "jillery." Who cares whether "jillery" was bullshitting? Not Erik, that's for sure.

    What is most interesting about Erik is his apparent ignorance of his hypocrisies.
    Good point. I can't recall Erik accusing me or anyone else of hypocrisy.

    However, you've hit upon one reason why I've given Erik the superlative,

    "Most disingenuously dishonest regular in talk.origins"

    He conforms to that superlative here in s.b.p., too, but the competition
    is vastly greater in talk.origins.

    There are six other superlatives in talk.origins that I have mentioned periodically,
    for four years at least by now. The only one that has actually changed "owners" is:

    "Most condescendingly dishonest regular in talk.origins"

    Long held by Casanova, it has found a slightly more superlative practitioner in Burkhard.


    When in talk.origins, do as the talk.origins regulars do.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_in_Rome,_do_as_the_Romans_do

    Occasionally I find myself tempted to play.

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  • From jillery@21:1/5 to peter2nyikos@gmail.com on Thu Sep 16 13:57:20 2021
    On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 09:04:39 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
    <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:

    Erik just keeps on showing his true colors. He can't help himself.

    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 11:08:06 AM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 11:25:34 PM UTC-7, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Sep 2021 18:59:32 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
    <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 6:35:41 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:

    That's the "jillery" [one-person?] organization posting: I'd recognize that
    69jp anywhere, despite the masking.
    That's the willfully stupid mindless noise generator called the peter,
    which he posts because he knows he has no idea what he's talking
    about.
    And, unlike Glenn, "jillery" gave no source for the following hypothesis:

    And jillery snipped the hypothesis, and launched into an orgy
    of character assassination, beginning with:

    And here's another example, where the complains about jillery's "no
    source" while saying nothing about his own lack of source.

    Glenn provided a source, right on this thread:


    Do you think you're Glenn? Do you think Glenn posted a source for
    your mindless noise? If not, then your comment is just more of your
    mindless noise.

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  • From jillery@21:1/5 to peter2nyikos@gmail.com on Thu Sep 16 14:00:03 2021
    On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 09:52:12 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
    <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:

    As expected in Thread Diluting Kaffeeklatsches like the one in which Erik and jillery
    are indulging, jillery demonstrates a JTEM-level fondness for trolling.


    This is how the peter turns froups into Hellholes.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to 69jp...@gmail.com on Thu Sep 16 11:15:49 2021
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 10:57:26 AM UTC-7, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 09:04:39 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
    <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    Erik just keeps on showing his true colors. He can't help himself.

    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 11:08:06 AM UTC-4, erik simpson wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 11:25:34 PM UTC-7, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Sep 2021 18:59:32 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
    <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 6:35:41 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:

    That's the "jillery" [one-person?] organization posting: I'd recognize that
    69jp anywhere, despite the masking.
    That's the willfully stupid mindless noise generator called the peter, >> > which he posts because he knows he has no idea what he's talking
    about.
    And, unlike Glenn, "jillery" gave no source for the following hypothesis:

    And jillery snipped the hypothesis, and launched into an orgy
    of character assassination, beginning with:

    And here's another example, where the complains about jillery's "no
    source" while saying nothing about his own lack of source.

    Glenn provided a source, right on this thread:

    Do you think you're Glenn? Do you think Glenn posted a source for
    your mindless noise? If not, then your comment is just more of your
    mindless noise.

    That's an example of mindless noise, jillery.

    What you snipped:

    "It gives the only hypothesis anyone has found for why the coronavirus causes so much damage: the cause is indirect. The victim's immune system goes haywire and begins an often suicidal autoimmune response. "

    Perhaps, actually quite likely, you think it fair to snip relevant content because you think other's do the same..

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to 69jp...@gmail.com on Thu Sep 16 11:22:51 2021
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 11:00:09 AM UTC-7, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 09:52:12 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
    <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    As expected in Thread Diluting Kaffeeklatsches like the one in which Erik and jillery
    are indulging, jillery demonstrates a JTEM-level fondness for trolling.
    This is how the peter turns froups into Hellholes.

    Actually that and this is how you turn groups into hellholes. s.b.p hasn't been a hellhole though, it is just dead.
    But you are the main contributor, in talk.origins, which has become a hellhole of insults and lies, apparently only coming
    over to s.b.p. when bored over the lack of "game" in talk.origins. I shudder to think you participate in other groups I am unaware of.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Thu Sep 16 11:24:32 2021
    On 9/16/21 9:27 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 11:41:00 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/15/21 6:59 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 6:35:41 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote: >>>
    That's the "jillery" [one-person?] organization posting: I'd recognize that >>> 69jp anywhere, despite the masking.

    And, unlike Glenn, "jillery" gave no source for the following hypothesis: >>>
    FTR, although the human body's immune system causes a lot of the
    damage related to Covid-19, especially in the lungs, it is not true
    that CoV-2 itself is "harmless". As with other infectious viruses,
    CoV-2 ultimately triggers apoptosis aka cell death, to release the
    newly formed viruses into the system and infect other cells.

    That's what Harshman said in different words, about "lytic mode," except >>> that he had to retract and say that he didn't think anyone knows
    how the coronavirus does major damage to the body.

    In fact, I've only heard of the lytic mode in bacteriophages. Can anyone >>> reading this find an example in a virus that infects a eukaryote? an animal?
    a vertebrate? a mammal? a primate?

    Here you licked the boots of jillery in a more subtle and indirect way
    than your perennial sidekick Erik Simpson did:

    I take exception to your characterization. What makes you this way?

    Are you not capable of googling?

    What hypocrisy! On a thread about the pre-Cambrian *Dickinsonia,* you trolled that you had no idea how to find photographs in which its fossils
    had bud-like growths like the one an author hypothesized
    to be a true example of budding, hence eliminating some contenders
    for extant sister group.

    I actually searched images and found none. And here you are bringing up
    old, imagined grievances again.

    Or did you just intend to troll that you didn't know how to find a peer reviewed
    paper that mentioned them, but worded what you wrote clumsily?

    I told your sidekick that I had the impression that you weren't at all interested in discussing Dickinsonia, because I very quickly found a peer-reviewed article that mentioned them and showed them.

    No, you did not. You found a paper that showed a picture, but it didn't
    talk about the supposed budding at all.

    "What Harshman doesn't know can't hurt him," and so you ignored that post.

    Here's the first site I found: https://viralzone.expasy.org/1077

    It does get as far as mentioning some unspecified vertebrates.
    That still leaves two groups I mentioned, mammals and primates, to go.

    You need to look at the individual families, under "hosts". Or you could google, say, "human adenovirus".

    Yes, many of the viruses mentioned infect humans,

    lysing their cells? Or only being related to viruses that have a lysing effect
    on other organisms?

    Must I do everything for you? Look before you come to a strange conclusion.

    which you should
    easily be able to discover, by following the internal links if in no
    othe way.

    Your optimism is in stunning contrast to your earlier behavior wrt Dickinsonia
    earlier this summer. But then, I've already known for a decade that you
    are addicted to double standards.

    And yet your criticize me for not (supposedly) doing something that you
    are here refusing to do. Doesn't that beam get in the way of your vision?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Thu Sep 16 11:36:09 2021
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 11:24:39 AM UTC-7, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/16/21 9:27 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 11:41:00 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/15/21 6:59 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 6:35:41 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:

    That's the "jillery" [one-person?] organization posting: I'd recognize that
    69jp anywhere, despite the masking.

    And, unlike Glenn, "jillery" gave no source for the following hypothesis: >>>
    FTR, although the human body's immune system causes a lot of the
    damage related to Covid-19, especially in the lungs, it is not true
    that CoV-2 itself is "harmless". As with other infectious viruses,
    CoV-2 ultimately triggers apoptosis aka cell death, to release the
    newly formed viruses into the system and infect other cells.

    That's what Harshman said in different words, about "lytic mode," except >>> that he had to retract and say that he didn't think anyone knows
    how the coronavirus does major damage to the body.

    In fact, I've only heard of the lytic mode in bacteriophages. Can anyone >>> reading this find an example in a virus that infects a eukaryote? an animal?
    a vertebrate? a mammal? a primate?

    Here you licked the boots of jillery in a more subtle and indirect way
    than your perennial sidekick Erik Simpson did:
    I take exception to your characterization. What makes you this way?
    Are you not capable of googling?

    What hypocrisy! On a thread about the pre-Cambrian *Dickinsonia,* you trolled
    that you had no idea how to find photographs in which its fossils
    had bud-like growths like the one an author hypothesized
    to be a true example of budding, hence eliminating some contenders
    for extant sister group.
    I actually searched images and found none. And here you are bringing up
    old, imagined grievances again.
    Or did you just intend to troll that you didn't know how to find a peer reviewed
    paper that mentioned them, but worded what you wrote clumsily?

    I told your sidekick that I had the impression that you weren't at all interested in discussing Dickinsonia, because I very quickly found a peer-reviewed article that mentioned them and showed them.
    No, you did not. You found a paper that showed a picture, but it didn't
    talk about the supposed budding at all.

    Budding Dickinsonia?

    "What Harshman doesn't know can't hurt him," and so you ignored that post.

    Here's the first site I found: https://viralzone.expasy.org/1077

    It does get as far as mentioning some unspecified vertebrates.
    That still leaves two groups I mentioned, mammals and primates, to go.
    You need to look at the individual families, under "hosts". Or you could google, say, "human adenovirus".
    Yes, many of the viruses mentioned infect humans,

    lysing their cells? Or only being related to viruses that have a lysing effect
    on other organisms?
    Must I do everything for you? Look before you come to a strange conclusion. >> which you should
    easily be able to discover, by following the internal links if in no
    othe way.

    Your optimism is in stunning contrast to your earlier behavior wrt Dickinsonia
    earlier this summer. But then, I've already known for a decade that you
    are addicted to double standards.
    And yet your criticize me for not (supposedly) doing something that you
    are here refusing to do. Doesn't that beam get in the way of your vision?

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  • From jillery@21:1/5 to All on Thu Sep 16 15:38:57 2021
    On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:15:49 -0700 (PDT), Glenn <GlennSheldon@msn.com>
    wrote:

    Perhaps, actually quite likely, you think it fair to snip relevant content because you think other's do the same..


    You still can't read minds any better than you can read English.

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  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to 69jp...@gmail.com on Thu Sep 16 14:16:26 2021
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 12:39:03 PM UTC-7, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:15:49 -0700 (PDT), Glenn <GlennS...@msn.com>
    wrote:
    Perhaps, actually quite likely, you think it fair to snip relevant content because you think other's do the same..
    You still can't read minds any better than you can read English.

    You think you can read minds better than you can read English.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Oxyaena@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Thu Sep 16 18:27:33 2021
    On 9/16/2021 12:04 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    [snip idiocy and bootlicking of Glenn]

    And Glenn isn't involved in this thread. jillery's post was a reply >>> to Eric, which was a reply to Oxyaena, which was a reply to the
    peter,>>> the willfully stupid mindless noise generator.> > That last
    line is pure mindless trolling, equaled only by JTEM in my experience.>
    Even Oxyaena doesn't lie her head off about me like that, only about individual> on topic, insightful comments of mine as in, "[snip
    mindless bullshit"]
    No, what Jillery wrote was perfectly accurate.


    Peter seems to be talking to Mario, or maybe Glenn. He's been a little confused lately.

    Datum: Erik is licking the boots of jillery, and projecting his own confusion onto me.

    Non. The only bootlicking being done here is by yourself.


    As is always the case when I post exclusively in the third person, I am speaking
    to the general readership.

    As if anyone gives a shit about your petty vendettas.

    [snip groveling]


    I gave a hint to Glenn last week about the topic of an upcoming thread,

    Even you must surely recognize that Glenn does not give a single flying
    fuck about anything on-topic wrt sbp.


    "Ancient boronaviruses and modern vaccines"

    in which the word "Ancient" is the key to why it is on topic
    to talk about the coronaviruses the way I have been doing.
    It refers to viruses that produced their effects on vertebrates,
    and indirectly via evolution on us humans, many millions of years ago.

    The thread has been delayed because, as I was continuing my research on the topic
    last weekend, I realized that it is a topic with many facets that I hadn't learned about
    before, and I have to put a lot more thought into it. Perhaps it will only be delayed
    a week, perhaps longer.

    Then get cracking. Why are you wasting your time here rather than doing
    your "extensive research?"



    How long has he been working on the theory that you are multiple?

    Ever since "jillery" stepped up talking about "jillery" in the third person, a number
    of months back.

    Man, you're an idiot. She's only doing that as a snarky response to the
    loads of mindless noise constantly made about er.

    [snip groveling]

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  • From Oxyaena@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Thu Sep 16 18:32:56 2021
    On 9/16/2021 12:52 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    As expected in Thread Diluting Kaffeeklatsches like the one in which Erik and jillery
    are indulging, jillery demonstrates a JTEM-level fondness for trolling.

    Mote beam eye.


    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 11:51:36 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 08:08:05 -0700 (PDT), erik simpson
    <eastsi...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Wednesday, September 15, 2021 at 11:25:34 PM UTC-7, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Wed, 15 Sep 2021 18:59:32 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
    <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Monday, September 13, 2021 at 6:35:41 AM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:

    That's the "jillery" [one-person?] organization posting: I'd recognize that
    69jp anywhere, despite the masking.
    That's the willfully stupid mindless noise generator called the peter, >>>> which he posts because he knows he has no idea what he's talking
    about.

    I know plenty about what I was talking about, the speculation about
    the coronavirus which Harshman had second thoughts about.


    Bullshit, your comments here show otherwise.

    [snip idiocy]



    Lately??? I would go along with "even more confused", although this
    may be yet another case of his satirical self-parodies.

    This JTEM-level trolling will be shown to be on that level for anyone
    who replies directly to this post, without deleting anything in it.


    Well it's a good thing I snipped loads of your mindless spam then, huh?
    Or wait, you might actually take that seriously. Never mind.



    Peter Nyikos


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  • From jillery@21:1/5 to peter2nyikos@gmail.com on Thu Sep 16 21:49:18 2021
    On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 09:52:12 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
    <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:

    That's the "jillery" [one-person?] organization posting: I'd recognize that
    69jp anywhere, despite the masking.
    That's the willfully stupid mindless noise generator called the peter, >> >> which he posts because he knows he has no idea what he's talking
    about.

    I know plenty about what I was talking about, the speculation about
    the coronavirus which Harshman had second thoughts about.


    If only the peter had limited his reply to such speculation, instead
    of spamming his mindless noise.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to 69jp...@gmail.com on Thu Sep 16 20:18:24 2021
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 6:49:24 PM UTC-7, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 09:52:12 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
    <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    That's the "jillery" [one-person?] organization posting: I'd recognize that
    69jp anywhere, despite the masking.
    That's the willfully stupid mindless noise generator called the peter, >> >> which he posts because he knows he has no idea what he's talking
    about.

    I know plenty about what I was talking about, the speculation about
    the coronavirus which Harshman had second thoughts about.
    If only the peter had limited his reply to such speculation, instead
    of spamming his mindless noise.

    How do you even walk, with those crooked hind legs?

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  • From jillery@21:1/5 to All on Fri Sep 17 00:03:34 2021
    On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 20:18:24 -0700 (PDT), Glenn <GlennSheldon@msn.com>
    wrote:

    How do you even walk, with those crooked hind legs?


    How do you even breathe, with only one working brain cell?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to 69jp...@gmail.com on Thu Sep 16 21:15:52 2021
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 9:03:40 PM UTC-7, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 20:18:24 -0700 (PDT), Glenn <GlennS...@msn.com>
    wrote:
    How do you even walk, with those crooked hind legs?
    How do you even breathe, with only one working brain cell?

    Breathing is autonomic, and not analogous to compulsive lying.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Oxyaena@21:1/5 to jillery on Fri Sep 17 02:26:35 2021
    On 9/17/2021 12:03 AM, jillery wrote:
    On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 20:18:24 -0700 (PDT), Glenn <GlennSheldon@msn.com>
    wrote:

    How do you even walk, with those crooked hind legs?


    How do you even breathe, with only one working brain cell?


    You how do even?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to 69jp...@gmail.com on Fri Sep 17 05:55:25 2021
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 3:39:03 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:15:49 -0700 (PDT), Glenn <GlennS...@msn.com>
    wrote:
    Perhaps, actually quite likely, you think it fair to snip relevant content because you think other's do the same..

    You still can't read minds any better than you can read English.

    Yes, Glenn doesn't know that you snip relevant content by me because you know
    I snip either content that I address in later posts or content that is completely superfluous.

    And when you snip relevant content after I've snipped superfluous content,
    you frequently write:

    "Works for me"

    or "Thanks for the precedent"

    with either version followed by

    "You never learn."

    This signals how pleased you are of your meltdown of all snips into one shade of gray.

    And I'm sure Oxyaena, who vies with Casanova for the honor of being the most ardent ally of BOTH you and Harshman, is pleased with the way you are
    carrying on this perennial talk.origins custom of yours here.


    Peter Nyikos

    PS I doubt that Harshman will complain this time about me mentioning people not present.
    I believe he will ignore this post, for the usual reason:
    "What Harshman doesn't know won't hurt him."

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  • From jillery@21:1/5 to peter2nyikos@gmail.com on Fri Sep 17 09:49:43 2021
    On Fri, 17 Sep 2021 05:55:25 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
    <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 3:39:03 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote: >> On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:15:49 -0700 (PDT), Glenn <GlennS...@msn.com>
    wrote:
    Perhaps, actually quite likely, you think it fair to snip relevant content because you think other's do the same..

    You still can't read minds any better than you can read English.

    Yes, Glenn doesn't know that you snip relevant content by me because you know >I snip either content that I address in later posts or content that is completely superfluous.


    You can't read minds any better than Glenn.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to 69jp...@gmail.com on Fri Sep 17 10:35:43 2021
    On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 6:49:49 AM UTC-7, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 17 Sep 2021 05:55:25 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
    <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 3:39:03 PM UTC-4, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Thu, 16 Sep 2021 11:15:49 -0700 (PDT), Glenn <GlennS...@msn.com>
    wrote:
    Perhaps, actually quite likely, you think it fair to snip relevant content because you think other's do the same..

    You still can't read minds any better than you can read English.

    Yes, Glenn doesn't know that you snip relevant content by me because you know
    I snip either content that I address in later posts or content that is completely superfluous.
    You can't read minds any better than Glenn.

    Did you know this?

    "There are many other innate immune cells, such as dendritic cells, gamma–delta T cells, and natural killer (NK) cells"

    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra2026131

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  • From jillery@21:1/5 to All on Fri Sep 17 20:22:37 2021
    On Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:35:43 -0700 (PDT), Glenn <GlennSheldon@msn.com>
    wrote:

    Did you know this?

    "There are many other innate immune cells, such as dendritic cells, gamma–delta T cells, and natural killer (NK) cells"

    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra2026131


    Did you know this?
    ****************************
    It has also been argued that this possible Megalosaurus bone was given
    the very first species name ever applied to an extinct dinosaur.
    Plot's engraving of the Cornwell bone was again used in a book by
    Richard Brookes in 1763. Brookes, in a caption, called it "Scrotum
    humanum," apparently comparing its appearance to a pair of "human
    testicles".
    ****************************

    While both your cite and mine are completely irrelevant to anything
    anybody wrote in this topic, mine is unique by being topical to the
    froup.

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  • From *Hemidactylus*@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Fri Sep 17 21:39:12 2021
    Peter Nyikos <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:
    I have some good news and some bad news for you, Oxyaena.

    The good news is that, based on the evidence available to me, JTEM has surpassed
    both Harshman [1] and Erik Simpson [2], two of your favorite people, in trollishness.

    The bad news [3] is that he still has a long way to go before he surpasses you.
    And he'll have to troll someone else for a while to gain on you, because I'm done "feeding the troll" where he is concerned, for the rest of this month.

    [1] This is significant, because, as you might recall from an s.b.p. thread
    a few years back, having to do with the sperm of hominids, JTEM succeeded
    in making it look like Harshman was trolling and JTEM was "feeding the troll".

    [2] This is also significant, because Erik trolled me by saying it should
    be obvious to me that JTEM is a troll, but in fact the evidence available to me was far more extensive in the direction of Erik being a troll than JTEM being
    a troll. Even now, that is true, but JTEM makes up in quality what he lacks in quantity.

    [3] I'm assuming, of course, that you would prefer that people not think of you as a troll. If I am wrong about that, then of course it would be good news.
    In particular, you exhibited extraordinary ingenuity during the year I boycotted
    you, in a huge number of posts, of trolling me so cleverly that you had some reason
    to believe that I would quite forget myself and reply to you before 2019 was up.

    Is this your longest preamble? I haven’t bothered to keep a List of word counts on such things, but it seems longish even for you.

    [snip more silly stuff]

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  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to Oxyaena on Fri Sep 17 19:32:04 2021
    I have some good news and some bad news for you, Oxyaena.

    The good news is that, based on the evidence available to me, JTEM has surpassed
    both Harshman [1] and Erik Simpson [2], two of your favorite people, in trollishness.

    The bad news [3] is that he still has a long way to go before he surpasses you.
    And he'll have to troll someone else for a while to gain on you, because I'm done "feeding the troll" where he is concerned, for the rest of this month.

    [1] This is significant, because, as you might recall from an s.b.p. thread
    a few years back, having to do with the sperm of hominids, JTEM succeeded
    in making it look like Harshman was trolling and JTEM was "feeding the troll".

    [2] This is also significant, because Erik trolled me by saying it should
    be obvious to me that JTEM is a troll, but in fact the evidence available to
    me was far more extensive in the direction of Erik being a troll than JTEM being
    a troll. Even now, that is true, but JTEM makes up in quality what he lacks in quantity.

    [3] I'm assuming, of course, that you would prefer that people not think of
    you as a troll. If I am wrong about that, then of course it would be good news. In particular, you exhibited extraordinary ingenuity during the year I boycotted
    you, in a huge number of posts, of trolling me so cleverly that you had some reason
    to believe that I would quite forget myself and reply to you before 2019 was up.



    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 6:27:41 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/16/2021 12:04 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    [snip idiocy and bootlicking of Glenn]

    This whopper of a lie is of the near-perfect quality trolling that put JTEM over Erik in the competition.
    There is no idiocy in what you snipped, and you know it -- you aren't the mental basket
    case that you became when you were Thrinaxodon at your worst.

    And "bootlicking" is a classic case of projection: your snip-n-deceive is a bootlicking
    of your dearly beloved jillery.

    She has cravenly avoided supporting her "FTR" about the coronavirus to this day,
    on grounds that she would flame anyone else for if they did it to her, and thus her
    performance qualifies as JTEM magnitude trolling.

    I think you know those grounds of jillery's very well, and thoroughly approve of them.
    But if you jumped into an argument you know nothing about, I'm willing to fill you in.

    And Glenn isn't involved in this thread.

    In the usual meaning of the word "thread", Glenn was so involved that he had already
    seen Harshman's retraction of his jillery-FTR-congurent claim about how
    the coronavirus does its damage, and had moreover posted the only explanation anyone has come up with to this date.

    If you know that, then you halfway know those grounds already.

    jillery's post was a reply
    to Eric, which was a reply to Oxyaena, which was a reply to the peter,
    the willfully stupid mindless noise generator.

    That last line is pure mindless trolling, equaled only by JTEM in my experience.
    Even Oxyaena doesn't lie her head off about me like that, only about
    individual on topic, insightful comments of mine as in, "[snip
    mindless bullshit"]

    No, what Jillery wrote was perfectly accurate.

    More bootlicking of jillery, this time unmistakably trolling.

    Perhaps what I wrote about JTEM still being way behind you in trolling
    was *good* news to you, eh?


    My next reply to this post will pick up where this one left off, not long after I've
    seen it appear. And that in turn will be really soon, because it doesn't go through
    robo-moderation like talk.origins posts do.


    Peter Nyikos

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  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to Oxyaena on Fri Sep 17 20:06:38 2021
    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 6:27:41 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/16/2021 12:04 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    [Erik Simpson trolled:]
    Peter seems to be talking to Mario, or maybe Glenn. He's been a little confused lately.

    Datum: Erik is licking the boots of jillery, and projecting his own confusion onto me.

    Non. The only bootlicking being done here is by yourself.

    This trolling is way below JTEM magnitude: it is a mindless Pee Wee Hermanism [1],
    whose mindlessness is apparent from the way you are relying on a shameless lie
    of yours for the only "evidence" that I did any bootlicking of anyone.

    [1] "I know you are but what am I?" is the juvenile comeback that Pee Wee Herman
    used copiously in one of his films. The implicit substitution of "Erik and jillery" for
    "I" doesn't affect the nature of your mindless idiocy.

    As is always the case when I post exclusively in the third person, I am speaking
    to the general readership.

    As if anyone gives a shit about your petty vendettas.

    The hypocrisy of this statement is astronomical. I am the person you have been fanatically obsessed with since your earliest talk.origins/s.b.e. beginnings, when you
    called yourself Thrinaxodon, and posted a hundred times under the byline "Nyikos repellent."

    You even admitted to Erik Simpson during my long postponed delay in returning to Usenet
    at the beginning of this year that you "can't live with him, can't live without him."

    You even emailed me -- someone NO other talk.origins participant or s.b.p. participant
    who is still around ever did, wondering what had become of me.

    To top it all off, when I did a rather impersonal but civil reply, you whined about how you
    should be given credit for taking the trouble to find out about me.


    [snip groveling]

    Another snip-n-deceive: your whining for credit in that email outdid any groveling
    I've done anywhere on the internet in the last decade.




    I gave a hint to Glenn last week about the topic of an upcoming thread,

    Even you must surely recognize that Glenn does not give a single flying
    fuck about anything on-topic wrt sbp.

    You being Thrinaxodon/Oxyaena, I expect you to be trolling about this
    even after I show that I know you are wrong. Maybe *especially*
    after I show you wrong.

    Before that, though, I point out that you are assuming that I am
    a mind reader, and I think Harshman would love the way you
    are prostituting your integrity in this way while (probably knowingly)
    working the opposite side of the street that he has worked for the past decade.


    Here is where Glenn showed the interest that you pretended that
    I knew couldn't exist, and I responded accordingly:

    https://groups.google.com/g/sci.bio.paleontology/c/TLUIIrH2Vug/m/N0dscqVwAwAJ Re: The origin of animals: an ancestral reconstruction of the unicellular-to- multicellular transition



    "Ancient boronaviruses and modern vaccines"

    in which the word "Ancient" is the key to why it is on topic
    to talk about the coronaviruses the way I have been doing.
    It refers to viruses that produced their effects on vertebrates,
    and indirectly via evolution on us humans, many millions of years ago.

    The thread has been delayed because, as I was continuing my research on the topic
    last weekend, I realized that it is a topic with many facets that I hadn't learned about
    before, and I have to put a lot more thought into it. Perhaps it will only be delayed
    a week, perhaps longer.

    Then get cracking. Why are you wasting your time here rather than doing
    your "extensive research?"

    Thank you for implicitly admitting that jillery and Erik were trolling: "wasting your time here" means that they succeeded in getting me to "feed the trolls".


    Peter Nyikos

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  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to but he on Fri Sep 17 20:31:08 2021
    On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 10:39:18 PM UTC-4, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:
    I have some good news and some bad news for you, Oxyaena.

    The good news is that, based on the evidence available to me, JTEM has surpassed
    both Harshman [1] and Erik Simpson [2], two of your favorite people, in trollishness.

    The bad news [3] is that he still has a long way to go before he surpasses you.
    And he'll have to troll someone else for a while to gain on you, because I'm
    done "feeding the troll" where he is concerned, for the rest of this month.

    [1] This is significant, because, as you might recall from an s.b.p. thread
    a few years back, having to do with the sperm of hominids, JTEM succeeded in making it look like Harshman was trolling and JTEM was "feeding the troll".

    [2] This is also significant, because Erik trolled me by saying it should be obvious to me that JTEM is a troll, but in fact the evidence available to
    me was far more extensive in the direction of Erik being a troll than JTEM being
    a troll. Even now, that is true, but JTEM makes up in quality what he lacks in quantity.

    [3] I'm assuming, of course, that you would prefer that people not think of
    you as a troll. If I am wrong about that, then of course it would be good news.
    In particular, you exhibited extraordinary ingenuity during the year I boycotted
    you, in a huge number of posts, of trolling me so cleverly that you had some reason
    to believe that I would quite forget myself and reply to you before 2019 was up.

    Is this your longest preamble? I haven’t bothered to keep a List of word counts on such things, but it seems longish even for you.

    You always do a good job of exhibiting the first level of existence as described by Kierkegaard,
    the esthetic, while showing no trace of the second level, the ethical.
    In _Irrational Man_, in his chapter on Kierkegaard, William Barrett wrote:

    "Kierkegaard explores the aesthetic attitude with great subtlety and sympathy; but he says, in the end it must collapse into despair. Ancient Epicureanism shows this, for it is haunted by the images of despair that it has sought to banish from its
    thinking. The most beautiful Epicurean poems of the Greeks and Romans are always haunted by sadness: there is a grinning skull behind the flowers."

    [snip more silly stuff]

    That's the esthetic level, all the way. You know, I'm sure, that the silly stuff was by Oxyaena,
    but your loyalties are with her, all the way. To you I am almost as distasteful as Glenn --correct?
    The difference is that you cannot dismiss me as easily as you can Glenn. You'd sound like
    the troll Oxyaena has been on this thread, and that kind of behavior doesn't sit as well with you
    as it does with her.

    Have a nice weekend. The following should make it pleasant for you: thanks in part to you,
    I haven't had the time today to give Harshman the comeuppance that he has earned for himself.
    And, as you know, I almost never post on weekends to either talk.origins or s.b.e.

    TGIF.

    Peter Nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Fri Sep 17 20:59:31 2021
    On 9/17/21 7:32 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    [1] This is significant, because, as you might recall from an s.b.p. thread
    a few years back, having to do with the sperm of hominids, JTEM succeeded
    in making it look like Harshman was trolling and JTEM was "feeding the troll".

    You have piqued my curiosity. What are you talking about here?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to 69jp...@gmail.com on Fri Sep 17 21:13:52 2021
    On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 5:22:43 PM UTC-7, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:35:43 -0700 (PDT), Glenn <GlennS...@msn.com>
    wrote:
    Did you know this?

    "There are many other innate immune cells, such as dendritic cells, gamma–delta T cells, and natural killer (NK) cells"

    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra2026131
    Did you know this?
    ****************************
    It has also been argued that this possible Megalosaurus bone was given
    the very first species name ever applied to an extinct dinosaur.
    Plot's engraving of the Cornwell bone was again used in a book by
    Richard Brookes in 1763. Brookes, in a caption, called it "Scrotum
    humanum," apparently comparing its appearance to a pair of "human testicles".
    ****************************

    While both your cite and mine are completely irrelevant to anything
    anybody wrote in this topic, mine is unique by being topical to the
    froup.

    You're a unique fruitcase, to that I agree.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oxyaena@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Sat Sep 18 00:39:10 2021
    On 9/17/2021 10:32 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    I have some good news and some bad news for you, Oxyaena.

    Oh boy, I can't wait!


    The good news is that, based on the evidence available to me, JTEM has surpassed
    both Harshman [1] and Erik Simpson [2], two of your favorite people, in trollishness.

    Your glasses must be broken. Why should I care about JTEM?


    The bad news [3] is that he still has a long way to go before he surpasses you.
    And he'll have to troll someone else for a while to gain on you, because I'm done "feeding the troll" where he is concerned, for the rest of this month.

    Cool.

    [snip idiocy]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From *Hemidactylus*@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Fri Sep 17 23:27:12 2021
    Peter Nyikos <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 10:39:18 PM UTC-4, *Hemidactylus* wrote:
    Peter Nyikos <peter2...@gmail.com> wrote:
    I have some good news and some bad news for you, Oxyaena.

    The good news is that, based on the evidence available to me, JTEM has surpassed
    both Harshman [1] and Erik Simpson [2], two of your favorite people, in trollishness.

    The bad news [3] is that he still has a long way to go before he surpasses you.
    And he'll have to troll someone else for a while to gain on you, because I'm
    done "feeding the troll" where he is concerned, for the rest of this month. >>>
    [1] This is significant, because, as you might recall from an s.b.p. thread >>> a few years back, having to do with the sperm of hominids, JTEM succeeded >>> in making it look like Harshman was trolling and JTEM was "feeding the troll".

    [2] This is also significant, because Erik trolled me by saying it should >>> be obvious to me that JTEM is a troll, but in fact the evidence available to
    me was far more extensive in the direction of Erik being a troll than JTEM being
    a troll. Even now, that is true, but JTEM makes up in quality what he lacks in quantity.

    [3] I'm assuming, of course, that you would prefer that people not think of >>> you as a troll. If I am wrong about that, then of course it would be good news.
    In particular, you exhibited extraordinary ingenuity during the year I boycotted
    you, in a huge number of posts, of trolling me so cleverly that you had some reason
    to believe that I would quite forget myself and reply to you before 2019 was up.

    Is this your longest preamble? I haven’t bothered to keep a List of word >> counts on such things, but it seems longish even for you.

    You always do a good job of exhibiting the first level of existence as described by Kierkegaard,
    the esthetic, while showing no trace of the second level, the ethical.
    In _Irrational Man_, in his chapter on Kierkegaard, William Barrett wrote:

    "Kierkegaard explores the aesthetic attitude with great subtlety and sympathy; but he says, in the end it must collapse into despair. Ancient Epicureanism shows this, for it is haunted by the images of despair that
    it has sought to banish from its thinking. The most beautiful Epicurean
    poems of the Greeks and Romans are always haunted by sadness: there is a grinning skull behind the flowers."

    [snip more silly stuff]

    That's the esthetic level, all the way. You know, I'm sure, that the
    silly stuff was by Oxyaena,
    but your loyalties are with her, all the way. To you I am almost as distasteful as Glenn --correct?
    The difference is that you cannot dismiss me as easily as you can Glenn. You'd sound like
    the troll Oxyaena has been on this thread, and that kind of behavior
    doesn't sit as well with you
    as it does with her.

    Have a nice weekend. The following should make it pleasant for you: thanks in part to you,
    I haven't had the time today to give Harshman the comeuppance that he has earned for himself.
    And, as you know, I almost never post on weekends to either talk.origins or s.b.e.

    TGIF.

    Damn Harshman. I thought I hid the strawberries well. He must have found my stash. I was going to put them in a blender with ice cream. Did you miss
    them?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jillery@21:1/5 to All on Sat Sep 18 13:07:46 2021
    On Fri, 17 Sep 2021 21:13:52 -0700 (PDT), Glenn <GlennSheldon@msn.com>
    wrote:

    On Friday, September 17, 2021 at 5:22:43 PM UTC-7, 69jp...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Fri, 17 Sep 2021 10:35:43 -0700 (PDT), Glenn <GlennS...@msn.com>
    wrote:
    Did you know this?

    "There are many other innate immune cells, such as dendritic cells, gamma–delta T cells, and natural killer (NK) cells"

    https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMra2026131

    Did you know this?
    ****************************
    It has also been argued that this possible Megalosaurus bone was given
    the very first species name ever applied to an extinct dinosaur.
    Plot's engraving of the Cornwell bone was again used in a book by
    Richard Brookes in 1763. Brookes, in a caption, called it "Scrotum
    humanum," apparently comparing its appearance to a pair of "human
    testicles".
    ****************************

    While both your cite and mine are completely irrelevant to anything
    anybody wrote in this topic, mine is unique by being topical to the
    froup.

    Oopsie, I forgot a link: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalosaurus#%22Scrotum_humanum%22>


    You're a unique fruitcase, to that I agree.


    That's the kind of mindless noise to which your enablers like
    Hemidactylus claim a false equivalence to my posts.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From jillery@21:1/5 to peter2nyikos@gmail.com on Sat Sep 18 13:07:02 2021
    On Fri, 17 Sep 2021 20:06:38 -0700 (PDT), Peter Nyikos
    <peter2nyikos@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, September 16, 2021 at 6:27:41 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/16/2021 12:04 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    [Erik Simpson trolled:]
    Peter seems to be talking to Mario, or maybe Glenn. He's been a little confused lately.

    Datum: Erik is licking the boots of jillery, and projecting his own confusion onto me.

    Non. The only bootlicking being done here is by yourself.

    This trolling is way below JTEM magnitude: it is a mindless Pee Wee Hermanism [1],
    whose mindlessness is apparent from the way you are relying on a shameless lie
    of yours for the only "evidence" that I did any bootlicking of anyone.

    [1] "I know you are but what am I?" is the juvenile comeback that Pee Wee Herman
    used copiously in one of his films. The implicit substitution of "Erik and jillery" for
    "I" doesn't affect the nature of your mindless idiocy.


    To the contrary, it is pseudoskeptics' SOP to mindlessly accuse others
    of doing what they do so they can idiotically retort "PeeWeeHermanism"
    when those others point out their lie.


    As is always the case when I post exclusively in the third person, I am speaking
    to the general readership.

    As if anyone gives a shit about your petty vendettas.


    <the peter's petty vendettas left uncommented for documentation
    purposes>


    The hypocrisy of this statement is astronomical. I am the person you have been >fanatically obsessed with since your earliest talk.origins/s.b.e. beginnings, when you
    called yourself Thrinaxodon, and posted a hundred times under the byline "Nyikos repellent."

    You even admitted to Erik Simpson during my long postponed delay in returning to Usenet
    at the beginning of this year that you "can't live with him, can't live without him."

    You even emailed me -- someone NO other talk.origins participant or s.b.p. participant
    who is still around ever did, wondering what had become of me.

    To top it all off, when I did a rather impersonal but civil reply, you whined about how you
    should be given credit for taking the trouble to find out about me.


    [snip groveling]

    Another snip-n-deceive: your whining for credit in that email outdid any groveling
    I've done anywhere on the internet in the last decade.




    I gave a hint to Glenn last week about the topic of an upcoming thread,

    Even you must surely recognize that Glenn does not give a single flying
    fuck about anything on-topic wrt sbp.

    You being Thrinaxodon/Oxyaena, I expect you to be trolling about this
    even after I show that I know you are wrong. Maybe *especially*
    after I show you wrong.

    Before that, though, I point out that you are assuming that I am
    a mind reader, and I think Harshman would love the way you
    are prostituting your integrity in this way while (probably knowingly) >working the opposite side of the street that he has worked for the past decade.


    Here is where Glenn showed the interest that you pretended that
    I knew couldn't exist, and I responded accordingly:

    https://groups.google.com/g/sci.bio.paleontology/c/TLUIIrH2Vug/m/N0dscqVwAwAJ >Re: The origin of animals: an ancestral reconstruction of the unicellular-to- multicellular transition



    "Ancient boronaviruses and modern vaccines"

    in which the word "Ancient" is the key to why it is on topic
    to talk about the coronaviruses the way I have been doing.
    It refers to viruses that produced their effects on vertebrates,
    and indirectly via evolution on us humans, many millions of years ago.

    The thread has been delayed because, as I was continuing my research on the topic
    last weekend, I realized that it is a topic with many facets that I hadn't learned about
    before, and I have to put a lot more thought into it. Perhaps it will only be delayed
    a week, perhaps longer.

    Then get cracking. Why are you wasting your time here rather than doing
    your "extensive research?"

    Thank you for implicitly admitting that jillery and Erik were trolling: >"wasting your time here" means that they succeeded in getting me to "feed the trolls".


    Even if your conclusion was correct, which it's not, it's a nonsense non-sequitur. Nobody put a gun to head to reply, not even with your
    mindless noise. Someday you might grow up and take responsibility for
    your own posts, perhaps before the Second Coming of Christ.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Mon Sep 20 14:06:55 2021
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 6:41:06 PM UTC-7, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 5:37 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:30:32 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 12:16 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 11:59:22 AM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote: >>>> On 9/9/21 7:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    Continued in next reply to this post. I will hold off with it until evening,
    to see whether Harshman or Hemidactylus or Oxyaena give a damn about either Jews
    or vaccinations enough to reply to something by either of us on either subject.

    I have made the choice not to engage further with a rabid anti-semite. >>>> And, apparently, a rabid anti-various other unstated groups, who
    proposes extermination as a general solution. You have to draw the line >>>> somewhere.

    How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination? Here is something in the
    article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:

    "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make anyone sick."
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy

    What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly sick? Some other part of the
    virus that our antibodies are unable to target?

    What makes you sick, presumably, is all the virus replicating and lysing >> your cells to get out. Certainly not the spike protein.

    Thanks. Strangely enough, I never read about that lysing feature. Somehow I imagined
    the viruses exiting the way the spike proteins molecules produced by mRNA vaccines exit one at a time,
    to where they can be detected by the immune system, and without their exits causing
    major damage to the cells.
    Turns out that SARS-Cov-2 doesn't generally lyse cells.
    Generally?
    Instead it
    coopts the lysosome to exit. And it appears that nobody actually knows
    for sure how the virus damages the body.

    If that is true, then nobody actually knows whether the virus damages the body.

    Still, it isn't the spike
    protein that does it.

    Really?

    "Intracellular trafficking and localization studies of spike protein from SARS and OC43 showed that SARS spike protein is localized in the ER or ERGIC compartment and OC43 spike protein is predominantly localized in the lysosome."

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7091306/

    I'll let you decide whether you are full of shit or not.

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-021-00268-z

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7743070/

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.12.08.417022v1.full

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Tue Sep 21 07:37:36 2021
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 9:41:06 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 5:37 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:30:32 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 12:16 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination? Here is something in the
    article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:

    "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make anyone sick."
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy

    What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly sick? Some other part of the
    virus that our antibodies are unable to target?

    What makes you sick, presumably, is all the virus replicating and lysing >> your cells to get out. Certainly not the spike protein.

    Thanks. Strangely enough, I never read about that lysing feature. Somehow I imagined
    the viruses exiting the way the spike proteins molecules produced by mRNA vaccines exit one at a time,
    to where they can be detected by the immune system, and without their exits causing
    major damage to the cells.

    Turns out that SARS-Cov-2 doesn't generally lyse cells.

    Does it *ever* lyse cells?


    Instead it coopts the lysosome to exit.

    How about telling us where you found out about these things?
    I've seen something very different that is connected with lysosomes:

    "The SARS-CoV-2 protein ORF3a inhibits fusion of autophagosomes with lysosomes" https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-021-00268-z


    And it appears that nobody actually knows
    for sure how the virus damages the body.

    The article I've referenced above gives a clue. It is very technical,
    as you can see from the main part of the abstract:

    "Autophagy is an intracellular lysosomal degradation pathway for the clearance of various cargoes, including viruses. Here, we systematically screened 28 viral proteins of SARS-CoV-2 and identified that ORF3a strongly inhibited autophagic flux by
    blocking the fusion of autophagosomes with lysosomes. ORF3a colocalized with lysosomes and interacted with VPS39, a component of the homotypic fusion and protein sorting (HOPS) complex. The ORF3a–VPS39 interaction prohibited the binding of HOPS with
    RAB7, which prevented the assembly of fusion machinery, leading to the accumulation of unfused autophagosomes. These results indicated the potential mechanism by which SARS-CoV-2 escapes degradation; that is, the virus interferes with autophagosome–
    lysosome fusion. Furthermore, our findings will facilitate strategies targeting autophagy for conferring potential protection against the spread of SARS-CoV-2."

    The introduction seems to give a connection to something that was written almost a year and a half ago, by the following article, that indicated that it somehow stimulates the immune system to go haywire:

    https://theconversation.com/what-the-coronavirus-does-to-your-body-that-makes-it-so-deadly-133856
    "As with SARS, most of the damage in COVID-19, the illness caused by the new coronavirus, is caused by the immune system carrying out a scorched earth defense to stop the virus from spreading. Millions of cells from the immune system invade the infected
    lung tissue and cause massive amounts of damage in the process of cleaning out the virus and any infected cells."

    This is in line with something Wikipedia says about autophagy:

    "In disease, autophagy has been seen as an adaptive response to stress, promoting survival of the cell; but in other cases, it appears to promote cell death and morbidity."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autophagy

    Back to the nature.com article, specifically the Introduction, where we read more about
    this haywire immune system response:

    "Severe cases of COVID-19 are associated with hyperinflammation, also known as cytokine storm syndrome6,7,8. Uncontrolled infection and replication of SARS-CoV-2 cause this rampant inflammatory response that results in acute respiratory distress syndrome
    and end-organ injury9,10,11,12. There is an urgent need to understand how SARS-CoV-2 regulates host cellular responses and hijacks host cells to escape degradation/clearance."


    Still, it isn't the spike protein that does it.

    It does look that way: it was among the 28 viral proteins they screened, but it only gets
    mentioned once, by way of a complete listing.


    Peter Nyikos
    Professor, Dept. of Mathematics
    Univ. of South Carolina -- standard disclaimer-- http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

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  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to Oxyaena on Tue Sep 21 08:29:20 2021
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 11:31:53 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/9/2021 7:31 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:41:18 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/9/2021 10:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 10:48:50 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:

    Based on the criteria of the majority. Even if I am not part of that >>>> majority, and even if this "hygiene" applies on me.
    Regarding Jews, aren't they the most notorious example? I mean,
    everybody knows everything about Jews.

    Maybe in your part of Croatia [although I doubt it] but certainly
    not in the USA. The endless harping on the Holocaust -- not that I
    mind most of it, "Schindler's List" was jarring even to me -- drowns out >>> anything negative people here say in the media about Jews.

    Lest there be any misunderstanding: I'm glad I saw "Schindler's List," because it brought home to me the utter inhumanity of the Nazi extermination
    campaign like nothing I saw before -- including the ghastly scenes of actual footage in "Judgment at Nuremberg."

    I have to agree that the Holocaust receives a bit too much attention
    compared to other genocides and atrocities, like the Native American
    Holocaust, or the Naqba when the Zionists ethnically cleansed Palestine >> of almost all of its indigenous people.

    Note the words, "ethnic cleansing." I looked up the word "Nakba," [generally accepted spelling],
    which was new to me, and it turns out that it was only in 1998 that Yasser Arafat actually
    made it a formally observed date, May 15. I saw no sign of any atrocities beyond displacement:

    Interesting how you compare the cold blooded murder of millions of Jews with
    the displacement of peoples.

    Interesting how you whitewash the cold-blooded 75+ year long oppression
    of the Palestinian people

    You are flagrantly, hatefully, moving the goalposts. The Nakba happened about as
    many years ago, and you're pretending I was talking about something else altogether.


    as "mere ethnic displacement." You've always
    been a piece of shit, Peter, but this is a new low even for you.

    On the contrary, you have treated me as though I were a piece of shit from the get-go,
    as "Thinaxodon" posting under the byline "Nyikos repellent" for over 100 posts, for the better part of a decade, and you will seize upon any excuse,
    even fraudulent ones [as here!] to continue treating me that way.

    I half expect snip everything that I've written so far, with your usual libels, "[snip idiocy]" or "[snip mindless bullshit]". That's another way you've treated
    me like dirt, at least a hundred times by now in s.b.p. alone.
    without noticeable cause, and you are doing it here again.


    Can you point me to a webpage where
    it is explained how the partition of Palestine and the resulting displacements
    are different in their nature from the partition that created India and Pakistan,
    resulting in the displacement of millions of Hindus living in what became Pakistan
    and millions of Muslims living in what became India?

    Does that make it any better?

    Major backpedal from hate-crazed use of "piece of shit" noted. In particular, you cannot cite anything but displacement that is associated with ethnic cleansing:

    "it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction.[2][3][4] It constitutes a crime against humanity and may also fall under the
    Genocide Convention, even as ethnic cleansing has no legal definition under international criminal law.[2][5][6]"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing


    Palestinians are to this day oppressed by
    the Apartheid regime in Israel,

    There is nothing like the original Apartheid in Israel. That is one thing I learned from reading up on
    the Nakba in official Jewish webpages: there are even Muslims in the Knesset, and with the change of government, one of the last things suggestive of Apartheid
    was removed: Palestinians who are "guest workers" in Israel can now be joined there
    by relatives who were formerly barred from entering Israel.

    or have you shoved your head so far up your own ass

    No, but you have, mindlessly regurgitating the kind of anti-Israel propaganda that "the Squad of Four" [AOC and three other Congresswomen] feed Useful Idiots like yourself.

    that Apartheid in any form is a "good thing" that we should
    strive for? Both the partitions of the Indian subcontinent and Palestine
    are the results of British imperialism, so they share common ground in
    that front.

    I wouldn't go down the "British imperialism" route on this issue if I were you. The British pretty evenly split Palestine between the Jews and the Muslims,
    and it was only the need for more defensible borders that caused Israel to annex a lot of Palestine after four Muslim countries unilaterally attacked Israel
    with the intent of abolishing Israel in favor of Islamic rule of a unified Palestine.

    The rest (i.e., the West Bank) was annexed by Transjordan, which has been called simply "Jordan" ever since. I don't see you complaining about any "oppressian of the Palestinian people" there. What sorts of oppression
    do the Israelis wreak on the West Bank Palestinians that the Jordanians never did?


    That said, I am appalled by the genocides and atrocities by White Anglos against
    Native Americans. I cannot understand why there isn't a major hue
    and cry against Andrew Jackson, responsible for the deaths of thousands of Cherokee, including untold numbers of women and children, by
    starvation and exposure to cold during the Trail of Tears, being commemorated by his portrait on the $20 bill.

    I have to agree with you there.

    It's good that we can agree on that much. However, the treatment of Native Americans
    went far beyond displacing them to reservations, even under criminally negligent
    conditions as these.

    It also included deliberate genocide, such as giving them blankets teeming with smallpox viruses. With no prior exposure to smallpox, the Native Americans succumbed in far greater percentages than we have been succumbing to the Delta variant.


    Remainder deleted, to be replied to later. I hope the delay won't be quite as long
    as the 11 days was for this first reply.


    Peter Nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Tue Sep 21 08:15:34 2021
    On 9/21/21 7:37 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 9:41:06 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 5:37 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:30:32 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote: >>>> On 9/9/21 12:16 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination? Here is something in the
    article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:

    "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make anyone sick."
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy

    What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly sick? Some other part of the
    virus that our antibodies are unable to target?

    What makes you sick, presumably, is all the virus replicating and lysing >>>> your cells to get out. Certainly not the spike protein.

    Thanks. Strangely enough, I never read about that lysing feature. Somehow I imagined
    the viruses exiting the way the spike proteins molecules produced by mRNA vaccines exit one at a time,
    to where they can be detected by the immune system, and without their exits causing
    major damage to the cells.

    Turns out that SARS-Cov-2 doesn't generally lyse cells.

    Does it *ever* lyse cells?

    I don't know. I didn't encounter anyone saying that it did.

    Instead it coopts the lysosome to exit.

    How about telling us where you found out about these things?

    First site I looked at, but I don't recall. But it's true, right?

    I've seen something very different that is connected with lysosomes:

    "The SARS-CoV-2 protein ORF3a inhibits fusion of autophagosomes with lysosomes"
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-021-00268-z


    And it appears that nobody actually knows
    for sure how the virus damages the body.

    The article I've referenced above gives a clue. It is very technical,
    as you can see from the main part of the abstract:

    "Autophagy is an intracellular lysosomal degradation pathway for the clearance of various cargoes, including viruses. Here, we systematically screened 28 viral proteins of SARS-CoV-2 and identified that ORF3a strongly inhibited autophagic flux by
    blocking the fusion of autophagosomes with lysosomes. ORF3a colocalized with lysosomes and interacted with VPS39, a component of the homotypic fusion and protein sorting (HOPS) complex. The ORF3a–VPS39 interaction prohibited the binding of HOPS with
    RAB7, which prevented the assembly of fusion machinery, leading to the accumulation of unfused autophagosomes. These results indicated the potential mechanism by which SARS-CoV-2 escapes degradation; that is, the virus interferes with autophagosome–
    lysosome fusion. Furthermore, our findings will facilitate strategies targeting autophagy for conferring potential protection against the spread of SARS-CoV-2."

    I believe that what they're saying is that it prevents the lysosome from destroying the virus, thus allowing it a safe exit from the cell. This
    seems not to be the way it causes damage, as far as I can tell.

    The introduction seems to give a connection to something that was written almost a year and a half ago, by the following article, that indicated that it
    somehow stimulates the immune system to go haywire:

    https://theconversation.com/what-the-coronavirus-does-to-your-body-that-makes-it-so-deadly-133856
    "As with SARS, most of the damage in COVID-19, the illness caused by the new coronavirus, is caused by the immune system carrying out a scorched earth defense to stop the virus from spreading. Millions of cells from the immune system invade the
    infected lung tissue and cause massive amounts of damage in the process of cleaning out the virus and any infected cells."

    Yes, that's a common theory. It's usually presented with caution, though
    less so with lung cells than with other sorts of damage.

    This is in line with something Wikipedia says about autophagy:

    "In disease, autophagy has been seen as an adaptive response to stress, promoting survival of the cell; but in other cases, it appears to promote cell death and morbidity."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autophagy

    Back to the nature.com article, specifically the Introduction, where we read more about
    this haywire immune system response:

    "Severe cases of COVID-19 are associated with hyperinflammation, also known as cytokine storm syndrome6,7,8. Uncontrolled infection and replication of SARS-CoV-2 cause this rampant inflammatory response that results in acute respiratory distress
    syndrome and end-organ injury9,10,11,12. There is an urgent need to understand how SARS-CoV-2 regulates host cellular responses and hijacks host cells to escape degradation/clearance."


    Still, it isn't the spike protein that does it.

    It does look that way: it was among the 28 viral proteins they screened, but it only gets
    mentioned once, by way of a complete listing.

    Anyway, all that does is indicate the presence of assembled viruses.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Tue Sep 21 08:15:33 2021
    On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 7:37:36 AM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 9:41:06 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 5:37 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:30:32 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 12:16 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination? Here is something in the
    article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:

    "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make anyone sick."
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy

    What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly sick? Some other part of the
    virus that our antibodies are unable to target?

    What makes you sick, presumably, is all the virus replicating and lysing
    your cells to get out. Certainly not the spike protein.

    Thanks. Strangely enough, I never read about that lysing feature. Somehow I imagined
    the viruses exiting the way the spike proteins molecules produced by mRNA vaccines exit one at a time,
    to where they can be detected by the immune system, and without their exits causing
    major damage to the cells.

    Turns out that SARS-Cov-2 doesn't generally lyse cells.
    Does it *ever* lyse cells?
    Instead it coopts the lysosome to exit.
    How about telling us where you found out about these things?
    I've seen something very different that is connected with lysosomes:

    "The SARS-CoV-2 protein ORF3a inhibits fusion of autophagosomes with lysosomes"
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-021-00268-z
    And it appears that nobody actually knows
    for sure how the virus damages the body.
    The article I've referenced above gives a clue. It is very technical,
    as you can see from the main part of the abstract:

    "Autophagy is an intracellular lysosomal degradation pathway for the clearance of various cargoes, including viruses. Here, we systematically screened 28 viral proteins of SARS-CoV-2 and identified that ORF3a strongly inhibited autophagic flux by
    blocking the fusion of autophagosomes with lysosomes. ORF3a colocalized with lysosomes and interacted with VPS39, a component of the homotypic fusion and protein sorting (HOPS) complex. The ORF3a–VPS39 interaction prohibited the binding of HOPS with
    RAB7, which prevented the assembly of fusion machinery, leading to the accumulation of unfused autophagosomes. These results indicated the potential mechanism by which SARS-CoV-2 escapes degradation; that is, the virus interferes with autophagosome–
    lysosome fusion. Furthermore, our findings will facilitate strategies targeting autophagy for conferring potential protection against the spread of SARS-CoV-2."

    The introduction seems to give a connection to something that was written almost a year and a half ago, by the following article, that indicated that it
    somehow stimulates the immune system to go haywire:

    https://theconversation.com/what-the-coronavirus-does-to-your-body-that-makes-it-so-deadly-133856
    "As with SARS, most of the damage in COVID-19, the illness caused by the new coronavirus, is caused by the immune system carrying out a scorched earth defense to stop the virus from spreading. Millions of cells from the immune system invade the
    infected lung tissue and cause massive amounts of damage in the process of cleaning out the virus and any infected cells."

    This is in line with something Wikipedia says about autophagy:

    "In disease, autophagy has been seen as an adaptive response to stress, promoting survival of the cell; but in other cases, it appears to promote cell death and morbidity."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autophagy

    Back to the nature.com article, specifically the Introduction, where we read more about
    this haywire immune system response:

    "Severe cases of COVID-19 are associated with hyperinflammation, also known as cytokine storm syndrome6,7,8. Uncontrolled infection and replication of SARS-CoV-2 cause this rampant inflammatory response that results in acute respiratory distress
    syndrome and end-organ injury9,10,11,12. There is an urgent need to understand how SARS-CoV-2 regulates host cellular responses and hijacks host cells to escape degradation/clearance."
    Still, it isn't the spike protein that does it.
    It does look that way: it was among the 28 viral proteins they screened, but it only gets
    mentioned once, by way of a complete listing.


    Here's an easy one to read:

    "Although the mechanism of viral egress is not fully known, there is evidence indicating that proteins present on the viral envelope such as the spike, membrane, and envelope proteins play essential roles in the egress process."

    https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210421/SARS-CoV-1-utilizes-ORF3a-protein-to-trigger-viral-release.aspx

    That may, if you are interested, lead you to papers more technical in detail.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to Glenn on Tue Sep 21 09:00:11 2021
    On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 8:15:34 AM UTC-7, Glenn wrote:
    On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 7:37:36 AM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 9:41:06 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 5:37 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:30:32 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 12:16 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination? Here is something in the
    article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:

    "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make anyone sick."
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy

    What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly sick? Some other part of the
    virus that our antibodies are unable to target?

    What makes you sick, presumably, is all the virus replicating and lysing
    your cells to get out. Certainly not the spike protein.

    Thanks. Strangely enough, I never read about that lysing feature. Somehow I imagined
    the viruses exiting the way the spike proteins molecules produced by mRNA vaccines exit one at a time,
    to where they can be detected by the immune system, and without their exits causing
    major damage to the cells.

    Turns out that SARS-Cov-2 doesn't generally lyse cells.
    Does it *ever* lyse cells?
    Instead it coopts the lysosome to exit.
    How about telling us where you found out about these things?
    I've seen something very different that is connected with lysosomes:

    "The SARS-CoV-2 protein ORF3a inhibits fusion of autophagosomes with lysosomes"
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-021-00268-z
    And it appears that nobody actually knows
    for sure how the virus damages the body.
    The article I've referenced above gives a clue. It is very technical,
    as you can see from the main part of the abstract:

    "Autophagy is an intracellular lysosomal degradation pathway for the clearance of various cargoes, including viruses. Here, we systematically screened 28 viral proteins of SARS-CoV-2 and identified that ORF3a strongly inhibited autophagic flux by
    blocking the fusion of autophagosomes with lysosomes. ORF3a colocalized with lysosomes and interacted with VPS39, a component of the homotypic fusion and protein sorting (HOPS) complex. The ORF3a–VPS39 interaction prohibited the binding of HOPS with
    RAB7, which prevented the assembly of fusion machinery, leading to the accumulation of unfused autophagosomes. These results indicated the potential mechanism by which SARS-CoV-2 escapes degradation; that is, the virus interferes with autophagosome–
    lysosome fusion. Furthermore, our findings will facilitate strategies targeting autophagy for conferring potential protection against the spread of SARS-CoV-2."

    The introduction seems to give a connection to something that was written almost a year and a half ago, by the following article, that indicated that it
    somehow stimulates the immune system to go haywire:

    https://theconversation.com/what-the-coronavirus-does-to-your-body-that-makes-it-so-deadly-133856
    "As with SARS, most of the damage in COVID-19, the illness caused by the new coronavirus, is caused by the immune system carrying out a scorched earth defense to stop the virus from spreading. Millions of cells from the immune system invade the
    infected lung tissue and cause massive amounts of damage in the process of cleaning out the virus and any infected cells."

    This is in line with something Wikipedia says about autophagy:

    "In disease, autophagy has been seen as an adaptive response to stress, promoting survival of the cell; but in other cases, it appears to promote cell death and morbidity."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autophagy

    Back to the nature.com article, specifically the Introduction, where we read more about
    this haywire immune system response:

    "Severe cases of COVID-19 are associated with hyperinflammation, also known as cytokine storm syndrome6,7,8. Uncontrolled infection and replication of SARS-CoV-2 cause this rampant inflammatory response that results in acute respiratory distress
    syndrome and end-organ injury9,10,11,12. There is an urgent need to understand how SARS-CoV-2 regulates host cellular responses and hijacks host cells to escape degradation/clearance."
    Still, it isn't the spike protein that does it.
    It does look that way: it was among the 28 viral proteins they screened, but it only gets
    mentioned once, by way of a complete listing.


    Here's an easy one to read:

    "Although the mechanism of viral egress is not fully known, there is evidence indicating that proteins present on the viral envelope such as the spike, membrane, and envelope proteins play essential roles in the egress process."

    https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210421/SARS-CoV-1-utilizes-ORF3a-protein-to-trigger-viral-release.aspx

    That may, if you are interested, lead you to papers more technical in detail.

    I just realized that John seems to be claiming that the spike protein is not what "stimulates the immune system". It just occurred to me you may have confused the claim "it isn't the spike protein that does it" to mean either that the spike protein does
    not play a role in the virus exiting the cell, or does not play a role in tricking infected cells themselves into thinking nothing is wrong.


    An obvious point:
    "Viral components like spike and nucleocapsid proteins trigger an immune response in the host to eliminate the virus."
    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.01949/full

    More as to what may play a role in the virus exiting the cell,

    "ORF3 is wedged between spike (S) and envelop (E) ORFs and encodes for a membrane-spanning, ion channel protein ORF3a."

    "Yount et.al and others have shown that ORF3a has been co-evolved with Spike (S) protein, suggesting the possibility of direct or indirect interactions between ORF3a and S protein"

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.26.437194v1.full

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to Glenn on Tue Sep 21 11:38:51 2021
    On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 12:00:12 PM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
    On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 8:15:34 AM UTC-7, Glenn wrote:
    On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 7:37:36 AM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 9:41:06 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 5:37 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:30:32 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 12:16 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination? Here is something in the
    article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:

    "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make anyone sick."
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy

    What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly sick? Some other part of the
    virus that our antibodies are unable to target?

    What makes you sick, presumably, is all the virus replicating and lysing
    your cells to get out. Certainly not the spike protein.

    Thanks. Strangely enough, I never read about that lysing feature. Somehow I imagined
    the viruses exiting the way the spike proteins molecules produced by mRNA vaccines exit one at a time,
    to where they can be detected by the immune system, and without their exits causing
    major damage to the cells.

    Turns out that SARS-Cov-2 doesn't generally lyse cells.

    Does it *ever* lyse cells?

    Harshman retracted the word "generally." He knows of no such effect.

    Instead it coopts the lysosome to exit.
    How about telling us where you found out about these things?

    Harshman doesn't recall where he read about the cooptation.
    He is far less concerned about documenting things than you are.


    I've seen something very different that is connected with lysosomes:

    "The SARS-CoV-2 protein ORF3a inhibits fusion of autophagosomes with lysosomes"
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-021-00268-z
    And it appears that nobody actually knows
    for sure how the virus damages the body.
    The article I've referenced above gives a clue. It is very technical,
    as you can see from the main part of the abstract:

    "Autophagy is an intracellular lysosomal degradation pathway for the clearance of various cargoes, including viruses. Here, we systematically screened 28 viral proteins of SARS-CoV-2 and identified that ORF3a strongly inhibited autophagic flux by
    blocking the fusion of autophagosomes with lysosomes. ORF3a colocalized with lysosomes and interacted with VPS39, a component of the homotypic fusion and protein sorting (HOPS) complex. The ORF3a–VPS39 interaction prohibited the binding of HOPS with
    RAB7, which prevented the assembly of fusion machinery, leading to the accumulation of unfused autophagosomes. These results indicated the potential mechanism by which SARS-CoV-2 escapes degradation; that is, the virus interferes with autophagosome–
    lysosome fusion. Furthermore, our findings will facilitate strategies targeting autophagy for conferring potential protection against the spread of SARS-CoV-2."

    The introduction seems to give a connection to something that was written
    almost a year and a half ago, by the following article, that indicated that it
    somehow stimulates the immune system to go haywire:

    https://theconversation.com/what-the-coronavirus-does-to-your-body-that-makes-it-so-deadly-133856
    "As with SARS, most of the damage in COVID-19, the illness caused by the new coronavirus, is caused by the immune system carrying out a scorched earth defense to stop the virus from spreading. Millions of cells from the immune system invade the
    infected lung tissue and cause massive amounts of damage in the process of cleaning out the virus and any infected cells."

    This is in line with something Wikipedia says about autophagy:

    "In disease, autophagy has been seen as an adaptive response to stress, promoting survival of the cell; but in other cases, it appears to promote cell death and morbidity."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autophagy

    Back to the nature.com article, specifically the Introduction, where we read more about
    this haywire immune system response:

    "Severe cases of COVID-19 are associated with hyperinflammation, also known as cytokine storm syndrome6,7,8. Uncontrolled infection and replication of SARS-CoV-2 cause this rampant inflammatory response that results in acute respiratory distress
    syndrome and end-organ injury9,10,11,12. There is an urgent need to understand how SARS-CoV-2 regulates host cellular responses and hijacks host cells to escape degradation/clearance."

    Still, it isn't the spike protein that does it.

    It does look that way: it was among the 28 viral proteins they screened, but it only gets
    mentioned once, by way of a complete listing.



    Here's an easy one to read:

    "Although the mechanism of viral egress is not fully known, there is evidence indicating that proteins present on the viral envelope such as the spike, membrane, and envelope proteins play essential roles in the egress process."

    https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210421/SARS-CoV-1-utilizes-ORF3a-protein-to-trigger-viral-release.aspx

    That may, if you are interested, lead you to papers more technical in detail.

    Thank you. It is an easy read, but it has a disclaimer about not being peer reviewed. However, hard
    data from experiments cannot be lightly taken, and here is something from a linked article
    along those lines:

    "In fully vaccinated SARS-CoV-2 naïve individuals, the antibody levels after 134 days of second vaccination reduced to the levels observed in unvaccinated COVID-19 recovered individuals after 220 days of symptom onset."
    https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210915/Natural-SARS-CoV-2-infection-induces-more-durable-immunity-than-vaccination.aspx

    There is other evidence for the statement in the url. This is in contrast to a lot of what I've been reading
    elsewhere, where ONLY antibody levels specifically targeting the spike protein were compared.

    I just realized that John seems to be claiming that the spike protein is not what "stimulates the immune system".

    You could interpret what he wrote that way, but his "does it" seems more to do with direct
    damage by the virus. That was the theme before I reminded him about the indirect effect,
    right in the post to which you are replying.

    And suddenly, Harshman acts as though he had known about the indirect effect all along,
    in his reply to the same post of mine to which you are replying..

    It just occurred to me you may have confused the claim "it isn't the spike protein that does it" to mean either that the spike protein does not play a role in the virus exiting the cell, or does not play a role in tricking infected cells themselves
    into thinking nothing is wrong.

    No, I've interpreted it as having to do with serious direct damage to the cell, but not to the extent
    that lysing does, which would destroy the cell outright.


    An obvious point:
    "Viral components like spike and nucleocapsid proteins trigger an immune response in the host to eliminate the virus."
    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.01949/full

    More as to what may play a role in the virus exiting the cell,

    "ORF3 is wedged between spike (S) and envelop (E) ORFs and encodes for a membrane-spanning, ion channel protein ORF3a."

    "Yount et.al and others have shown that ORF3a has been co-evolved with Spike (S) protein, suggesting the possibility of direct or indirect interactions between ORF3a and S protein"

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.26.437194v1.full

    Lots of good stuff to delve into. Thanks.

    John isn't pulling his weight in this discussion. That's typical of at least 90% of the threads
    in which he participates. By the time they end, it's close to 100% of him not bringing
    anything useful to the table.


    Peter Nyikos
    Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
    University of So. Carolina at Columbia
    http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Tue Sep 21 12:52:51 2021
    On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 11:38:52 AM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 12:00:12 PM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
    On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 8:15:34 AM UTC-7, Glenn wrote:
    On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 7:37:36 AM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 9:41:06 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 5:37 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:30:32 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 12:16 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination? Here is something in the
    article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:

    "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make anyone sick."
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy

    What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly sick? Some other part of the
    virus that our antibodies are unable to target?

    What makes you sick, presumably, is all the virus replicating and lysing
    your cells to get out. Certainly not the spike protein.

    Thanks. Strangely enough, I never read about that lysing feature. Somehow I imagined
    the viruses exiting the way the spike proteins molecules produced by mRNA vaccines exit one at a time,
    to where they can be detected by the immune system, and without their exits causing
    major damage to the cells.

    Turns out that SARS-Cov-2 doesn't generally lyse cells.

    Does it *ever* lyse cells?
    Harshman retracted the word "generally." He knows of no such effect.
    Instead it coopts the lysosome to exit.
    How about telling us where you found out about these things?
    Harshman doesn't recall where he read about the cooptation.
    He is far less concerned about documenting things than you are.
    I've seen something very different that is connected with lysosomes:

    "The SARS-CoV-2 protein ORF3a inhibits fusion of autophagosomes with lysosomes"
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-021-00268-z
    And it appears that nobody actually knows
    for sure how the virus damages the body.
    The article I've referenced above gives a clue. It is very technical, as you can see from the main part of the abstract:

    "Autophagy is an intracellular lysosomal degradation pathway for the clearance of various cargoes, including viruses. Here, we systematically screened 28 viral proteins of SARS-CoV-2 and identified that ORF3a strongly inhibited autophagic flux by
    blocking the fusion of autophagosomes with lysosomes. ORF3a colocalized with lysosomes and interacted with VPS39, a component of the homotypic fusion and protein sorting (HOPS) complex. The ORF3a–VPS39 interaction prohibited the binding of HOPS with
    RAB7, which prevented the assembly of fusion machinery, leading to the accumulation of unfused autophagosomes. These results indicated the potential mechanism by which SARS-CoV-2 escapes degradation; that is, the virus interferes with autophagosome–
    lysosome fusion. Furthermore, our findings will facilitate strategies targeting autophagy for conferring potential protection against the spread of SARS-CoV-2."

    The introduction seems to give a connection to something that was written
    almost a year and a half ago, by the following article, that indicated that it
    somehow stimulates the immune system to go haywire:

    https://theconversation.com/what-the-coronavirus-does-to-your-body-that-makes-it-so-deadly-133856
    "As with SARS, most of the damage in COVID-19, the illness caused by the new coronavirus, is caused by the immune system carrying out a scorched earth defense to stop the virus from spreading. Millions of cells from the immune system invade the
    infected lung tissue and cause massive amounts of damage in the process of cleaning out the virus and any infected cells."

    This is in line with something Wikipedia says about autophagy:

    "In disease, autophagy has been seen as an adaptive response to stress, promoting survival of the cell; but in other cases, it appears to promote cell death and morbidity."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autophagy

    Back to the nature.com article, specifically the Introduction, where we read more about
    this haywire immune system response:

    "Severe cases of COVID-19 are associated with hyperinflammation, also known as cytokine storm syndrome6,7,8. Uncontrolled infection and replication of SARS-CoV-2 cause this rampant inflammatory response that results in acute respiratory distress
    syndrome and end-organ injury9,10,11,12. There is an urgent need to understand how SARS-CoV-2 regulates host cellular responses and hijacks host cells to escape degradation/clearance."

    Still, it isn't the spike protein that does it.

    It does look that way: it was among the 28 viral proteins they screened, but it only gets
    mentioned once, by way of a complete listing.



    Here's an easy one to read:

    "Although the mechanism of viral egress is not fully known, there is evidence indicating that proteins present on the viral envelope such as the spike, membrane, and envelope proteins play essential roles in the egress process."

    https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210421/SARS-CoV-1-utilizes-ORF3a-protein-to-trigger-viral-release.aspx

    That may, if you are interested, lead you to papers more technical in detail.
    Thank you. It is an easy read, but it has a disclaimer about not being peer reviewed. However, hard
    data from experiments cannot be lightly taken, and here is something from a linked article
    along those lines:

    "In fully vaccinated SARS-CoV-2 naïve individuals, the antibody levels after 134 days of second vaccination reduced to the levels observed in unvaccinated COVID-19 recovered individuals after 220 days of symptom onset."
    https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210915/Natural-SARS-CoV-2-infection-induces-more-durable-immunity-than-vaccination.aspx

    There is other evidence for the statement in the url. This is in contrast to a lot of what I've been reading
    elsewhere, where ONLY antibody levels specifically targeting the spike protein were compared.
    I just realized that John seems to be claiming that the spike protein is not what "stimulates the immune system".
    You could interpret what he wrote that way, but his "does it" seems more to do with direct
    damage by the virus. That was the theme before I reminded him about the indirect effect,
    right in the post to which you are replying.

    And suddenly, Harshman acts as though he had known about the indirect effect all along,
    in his reply to the same post of mine to which you are replying..
    It just occurred to me you may have confused the claim "it isn't the spike protein that does it" to mean either that the spike protein does not play a role in the virus exiting the cell, or does not play a role in tricking infected cells themselves
    into thinking nothing is wrong.
    No, I've interpreted it as having to do with serious direct damage to the cell, but not to the extent
    that lysing does, which would destroy the cell outright.


    An obvious point:
    "Viral components like spike and nucleocapsid proteins trigger an immune response in the host to eliminate the virus."
    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.01949/full

    More as to what may play a role in the virus exiting the cell,

    "ORF3 is wedged between spike (S) and envelop (E) ORFs and encodes for a membrane-spanning, ion channel protein ORF3a."

    "Yount et.al and others have shown that ORF3a has been co-evolved with Spike (S) protein, suggesting the possibility of direct or indirect interactions between ORF3a and S protein"

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.26.437194v1.full
    Lots of good stuff to delve into. Thanks.

    John isn't pulling his weight in this discussion. That's typical of at least 90% of the threads
    in which he participates. By the time they end, it's close to 100% of him not bringing
    anything useful to the table.

    What I have observed over the years is that this is typical for most of the evolutionists.
    One explanation is that they are actually afraid of scientific literature.
    For years I have commented on their lack of support and references, as opposed to my use of them.
    The charge of not having a "point" or expressed position on a subject is common among evolutionists, yet it appears what they
    really mean is that their opponents do not admit to what they believe their opponents believe.
    In this thread you've been targeted as being sided towards the anti-vax crowd that claims COVID is harmless by itself, as have I.
    Notice the lack of references to their claims, and the multiple references I have provided, including giving jillery a clue about the
    existence of many types of immune cells.
    They're afraid that readers will be confused by the literature and not share their opinions and claims.
    Propaganda is rampant in evolutionary science.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to Glenn on Thu Sep 23 18:20:23 2021
    On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 3:52:52 PM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
    On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 11:38:52 AM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 12:00:12 PM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
    On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 8:15:34 AM UTC-7, Glenn wrote:
    On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 7:37:36 AM UTC-7, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 9:41:06 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 5:37 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:30:32 PM UTC-4, John Harshman wrote:
    On 9/9/21 12:16 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    How about posting on the subject of the coronavirus, or vaccination? Here is something in the
    article that Hemidactylus linked which I find puzzling:

    "These spikes, by themselves, are not dangerous. They can't make anyone sick."
    https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy

    What is it, then, about the virus that makes some people deathly sick? Some other part of the
    virus that our antibodies are unable to target?

    What makes you sick, presumably, is all the virus replicating and lysing
    your cells to get out. Certainly not the spike protein.

    Thanks. Strangely enough, I never read about that lysing feature. Somehow I imagined
    the viruses exiting the way the spike proteins molecules produced by mRNA vaccines exit one at a time,
    to where they can be detected by the immune system, and without their exits causing
    major damage to the cells.

    Turns out that SARS-Cov-2 doesn't generally lyse cells.

    Does it *ever* lyse cells?

    Harshman retracted the word "generally" in his reply. He knows of no such effect.

    Instead it coopts the lysosome to exit.
    How about telling us where you found out about these things?
    Harshman doesn't recall where he read about the cooptation.
    He is far less concerned about documenting things than you are.
    I've seen something very different that is connected with lysosomes:

    "The SARS-CoV-2 protein ORF3a inhibits fusion of autophagosomes with lysosomes"
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41421-021-00268-z
    And it appears that nobody actually knows
    for sure how the virus damages the body.
    The article I've referenced above gives a clue. It is very technical,
    as you can see from the main part of the abstract:

    "Autophagy is an intracellular lysosomal degradation pathway for the clearance of various cargoes, including viruses. Here, we systematically screened 28 viral proteins of SARS-CoV-2 and identified that ORF3a strongly inhibited autophagic flux
    by blocking the fusion of autophagosomes with lysosomes. ORF3a colocalized with lysosomes and interacted with VPS39, a component of the homotypic fusion and protein sorting (HOPS) complex. The ORF3a–VPS39 interaction prohibited the binding of HOPS with
    RAB7, which prevented the assembly of fusion machinery, leading to the accumulation of unfused autophagosomes. These results indicated the potential mechanism by which SARS-CoV-2 escapes degradation; that is, the virus interferes with autophagosome–
    lysosome fusion. Furthermore, our findings will facilitate strategies targeting autophagy for conferring potential protection against the spread of SARS-CoV-2."

    The introduction seems to give a connection to something that was written
    almost a year and a half ago, by the following article, that indicated that it
    somehow stimulates the immune system to go haywire:

    https://theconversation.com/what-the-coronavirus-does-to-your-body-that-makes-it-so-deadly-133856
    "As with SARS, most of the damage in COVID-19, the illness caused by the new coronavirus, is caused by the immune system carrying out a scorched earth defense to stop the virus from spreading. Millions of cells from the immune system invade the
    infected lung tissue and cause massive amounts of damage in the process of cleaning out the virus and any infected cells."

    This is in line with something Wikipedia says about autophagy:

    "In disease, autophagy has been seen as an adaptive response to stress, promoting survival of the cell; but in other cases, it appears to promote cell death and morbidity."
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autophagy

    Back to the nature.com article, specifically the Introduction, where we read more about
    this haywire immune system response:

    "Severe cases of COVID-19 are associated with hyperinflammation, also known as cytokine storm syndrome6,7,8. Uncontrolled infection and replication of SARS-CoV-2 cause this rampant inflammatory response that results in acute respiratory
    distress syndrome and end-organ injury9,10,11,12. There is an urgent need to understand how SARS-CoV-2 regulates host cellular responses and hijacks host cells to escape degradation/clearance."

    Still, it isn't the spike protein that does it.

    It does look that way: it was among the 28 viral proteins they screened, but it only gets
    mentioned once, by way of a complete listing.



    Here's an easy one to read:

    "Although the mechanism of viral egress is not fully known, there is evidence indicating that proteins present on the viral envelope such as the spike, membrane, and envelope proteins play essential roles in the egress process."

    https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210421/SARS-CoV-1-utilizes-ORF3a-protein-to-trigger-viral-release.aspx

    That may, if you are interested, lead you to papers more technical in detail.

    I haven't yet chased down most of them, and this was the only one so far:

    Thank you. It is an easy read, but it has a disclaimer about not being peer reviewed. However, hard
    data from experiments cannot be lightly taken, and here is something from a linked article
    along those lines:

    "In fully vaccinated SARS-CoV-2 naïve individuals, the antibody levels after 134 days of second vaccination reduced to the levels observed in unvaccinated COVID-19 recovered individuals after 220 days of symptom onset."
    https://www.news-medical.net/news/20210915/Natural-SARS-CoV-2-infection-induces-more-durable-immunity-than-vaccination.aspx

    There is other evidence for the statement in the url. This is in contrast to a lot of what I've been reading
    elsewhere, where ONLY antibody levels specifically targeting the spike protein were compared.

    And, come to think of it, they may not have been about such long intervals of time (134 v. 220 days).

    I just realized that John seems to be claiming that the spike protein is not what "stimulates the immune system".
    You could interpret what he wrote that way, but his "does it" seems more to do with direct
    damage by the virus. That was the theme before I reminded him about the indirect effect,
    right in the post to which you are replying.

    And suddenly, Harshman acts as though he had known about the indirect effect all along,
    in his reply to the same post of mine to which you are replying..
    It just occurred to me you may have confused the claim "it isn't the spike protein that does it" to mean either that the spike protein does not play a role in the virus exiting the cell, or does not play a role in tricking infected cells themselves
    into thinking nothing is wrong.
    No, I've interpreted it as having to do with serious direct damage to the cell, but not to the extent
    that lysing does, which would destroy the cell outright.


    An obvious point:
    "Viral components like spike and nucleocapsid proteins trigger an immune response in the host to eliminate the virus."
    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fimmu.2020.01949/full

    More as to what may play a role in the virus exiting the cell,

    "ORF3 is wedged between spike (S) and envelop (E) ORFs and encodes for a membrane-spanning, ion channel protein ORF3a."

    "Yount et.al and others have shown that ORF3a has been co-evolved with Spike (S) protein, suggesting the possibility of direct or indirect interactions between ORF3a and S protein"

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.03.26.437194v1.full
    Lots of good stuff to delve into. Thanks.

    John isn't pulling his weight in this discussion. That's typical of at least 90% of the threads
    in which he participates. By the time they end, it's close to 100% of him not bringing
    anything useful to the table.

    What I have observed over the years is that this is typical for most of the evolutionists.

    In talk.origins, certainly. But they are mostly a bunch of dysfunctional people,
    including Harshman and his long-time sidekick Erik Simpson. These two,
    plus the super-dysfunctional Oxyaena, have dominated sci.bio.paleontology
    since the non-dysfunctional Richard Norman left, and with it the moderating influence he exerted.


    One explanation is that they are actually afraid of scientific literature. For years I have commented on their lack of support and references, as opposed to my use of them.
    The charge of not having a "point" or expressed position on a subject is common among evolutionists,
    yet it appears what they
    really mean is that their opponents do not admit to what they believe their opponents believe.

    That's behind practically all of Harshman's claims about me being "not clear," and Erik Simpson
    being a one-trick pony with his own claims of that kind for at least two years running.

    Finally, I got fed up with the transparent way in which the immediate sequel to
    Erik's allegations of lack of clearness was always a question that did not seek to
    shed light on the alleged lack of clarity.

    Instead of answering one, I rephrased my "unclear" statement in a way that I thought
    nobody could misunderstand. I asked him if it was clear now, and he repeatedly refused to answer the question.

    I then charged him with having run a scam with his allegations of unclearness.

    Three clumsy counterattacks by Robert Camp, Mark Isaak, and Hemidactylus followed,
    and were easily disposed of by me, especially Camp's stupefyingly clueless "defense" of Erik.

    Erik, almost needless to say, had made his last post to that thread even before Camp showed up.
    And Camp's last post to the thread was that clueless post itself, before the other two chimed in.


    In this thread you've been targeted as being sided towards the anti-vax crowd that claims COVID is harmless by itself, as have I.

    That's ridiculous, but there is something far worse than that: I've been targeted by Erik and Harshman
    with blatantly phony "suspicions" of being a creationist. Practically all Erik's claims of unclearness
    were made with only the intent of asking the questions that immediately followed them. And these in turn seemed
    to be designed to make me slip up and reveal that I was tending to a point that was sympathetic to creationism. [1]
    Of course, they were unsuccessful, because I kept making all the points I wanted to make as I went along.
    But essentially none of them interested Erik.

    [1] Not creationists, all but one of whom I have found to be more honest and guileless than Erik. The only exception, Ray
    Martinez, was so dishonest and hypocritical, that I had suspicions of him NOT being a creationist.


    Notice the lack of references to their claims, and the multiple references I have provided, including giving jillery a clue about the
    existence of many types of immune cells.
    They're afraid that readers will be confused by the literature and not share their opinions and claims.
    Propaganda is rampant in evolutionary science.

    It is certainly rampant in the "birds are dinosaurs" issue, even in the big outside world,
    and I am glad you are helping me with one link after another on the thread, "Bird Origins: Dogmatism and Skepticism."

    Even Senior _Nature_ editor Henry Gee's foolish claim, "Birds are dinosaurs. The debate is over" pales alongside
    some of them, made on the basis of the same laughably inadequate evidence, at practically
    the same time. If I hadn't spent so much time on that thread today, I'd quote some of it.
    Another day, perhaps.

    It is also rampant in the ideologically motivated prohibition against taxa that are not clades, like the
    ones the "Age of Amphibia" and the "Age of Reptilia" that you and I grew up with are named after.

    It includes the outright lie that these taxa are biologically nonsensical. In reality, the first was simply
    obtained by removing the clade Amniota from what was then the clade Tetrapoda, [2] and the second
    by removing the clades Mammalia and Aves from Amniota.

    [2] "Tetrapoda" was nonsensically redefined at the beginning of this century to include only descendants
    of the last common ancestor of LIVING tetrapods. This banished EVERY KNOWN animal of "the Age of Amphibians"
    that was called an amphibian in the 20th century from Tetrapoda. Now they are all just "primitive terrestrial vertebrates."


    Peter Nyikos
    Professor, Dept. of Mathematics -- standard disclaimer--
    Univ. of So. Carolina at Columbia
    http://people.math.sc.edu/nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oxyaena@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Sun Sep 26 21:22:11 2021
    On 9/21/2021 11:29 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 11:31:53 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/9/2021 7:31 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:41:18 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/9/2021 10:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 10:48:50 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:

    Based on the criteria of the majority. Even if I am not part of that >>>>>> majority, and even if this "hygiene" applies on me.
    Regarding Jews, aren't they the most notorious example? I mean,
    everybody knows everything about Jews.

    Maybe in your part of Croatia [although I doubt it] but certainly
    not in the USA. The endless harping on the Holocaust -- not that I
    mind most of it, "Schindler's List" was jarring even to me -- drowns out >>>>> anything negative people here say in the media about Jews.

    Lest there be any misunderstanding: I'm glad I saw "Schindler's List,"
    because it brought home to me the utter inhumanity of the Nazi extermination
    campaign like nothing I saw before -- including the ghastly scenes of
    actual footage in "Judgment at Nuremberg."

    I have to agree that the Holocaust receives a bit too much attention
    compared to other genocides and atrocities, like the Native American
    Holocaust, or the Naqba when the Zionists ethnically cleansed Palestine >>>> of almost all of its indigenous people.

    Note the words, "ethnic cleansing." I looked up the word "Nakba," [generally accepted spelling],
    which was new to me, and it turns out that it was only in 1998 that Yasser Arafat actually
    made it a formally observed date, May 15. I saw no sign of any atrocities beyond displacement:

    What makes you think displacement isn't an atrocity in and of itself?


    Interesting how you compare the cold blooded murder of millions of Jews with
    the displacement of peoples.

    Interesting how you whitewash the cold-blooded 75+ year long oppression
    of the Palestinian people

    You are flagrantly, hatefully, moving the goalposts. The Nakba happened about as
    many years ago, and you're pretending I was talking about something else altogether.

    You can't just remove the Nakba from the current experiences of the
    Palestinian people. There are still millions of Palestinians living in displaced refugee camps, knowing no life outside of the harshness of the
    camps in question.



    as "mere ethnic displacement." You've always
    been a piece of shit, Peter, but this is a new low even for you.

    On the contrary, you have treated me as though I were a piece of shit from the get-go,

    Because you were and are.

    [snip idiocy]


    Can you point me to a webpage where
    it is explained how the partition of Palestine and the resulting displacements
    are different in their nature from the partition that created India and Pakistan,
    resulting in the displacement of millions of Hindus living in what became Pakistan
    and millions of Muslims living in what became India?

    Does that make it any better?

    Major backpedal from hate-crazed use of "piece of shit" noted. In particular, you cannot cite anything but displacement that is associated with ethnic cleansing:

    "it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction.[2][3][4] It constitutes a crime against humanity and may also fall under the
    Genocide Convention, even as ethnic cleansing has no legal definition under international criminal law.[2][5][6]"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing


    Palestinians are to this day oppressed by
    the Apartheid regime in Israel,

    There is nothing like the original Apartheid in Israel. That is one thing I learned from reading up on
    the Nakba in official Jewish webpages: there are even Muslims in the Knesset,

    I suggest talking to an actual Palestinian for once, and not from
    pro-Zionist propaganda pages. That's like reading David Irving for an
    unbiased source on the Holocaust.

    [snip mindless Zionist simping]

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Glenn@21:1/5 to Oxyaena on Sun Sep 26 19:27:47 2021
    On Sunday, September 26, 2021 at 6:22:15 PM UTC-7, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/21/2021 11:29 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 11:31:53 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/9/2021 7:31 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:41:18 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/9/2021 10:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 10:48:50 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:

    Based on the criteria of the majority. Even if I am not part of that >>>>>> majority, and even if this "hygiene" applies on me.
    Regarding Jews, aren't they the most notorious example? I mean, >>>>>> everybody knows everything about Jews.

    Maybe in your part of Croatia [although I doubt it] but certainly >>>>> not in the USA. The endless harping on the Holocaust -- not that I >>>>> mind most of it, "Schindler's List" was jarring even to me -- drowns out
    anything negative people here say in the media about Jews.

    Lest there be any misunderstanding: I'm glad I saw "Schindler's List," >>> because it brought home to me the utter inhumanity of the Nazi extermination
    campaign like nothing I saw before -- including the ghastly scenes of >>> actual footage in "Judgment at Nuremberg."

    I have to agree that the Holocaust receives a bit too much attention >>>> compared to other genocides and atrocities, like the Native American >>>> Holocaust, or the Naqba when the Zionists ethnically cleansed Palestine >>>> of almost all of its indigenous people.

    Note the words, "ethnic cleansing." I looked up the word "Nakba," [generally accepted spelling],
    which was new to me, and it turns out that it was only in 1998 that Yasser Arafat actually
    made it a formally observed date, May 15. I saw no sign of any atrocities beyond displacement:
    What makes you think displacement isn't an atrocity in and of itself?

    Interesting how you compare the cold blooded murder of millions of Jews with
    the displacement of peoples.

    Interesting how you whitewash the cold-blooded 75+ year long oppression >> of the Palestinian people

    You are flagrantly, hatefully, moving the goalposts. The Nakba happened about as
    many years ago, and you're pretending I was talking about something else altogether.
    You can't just remove the Nakba from the current experiences of the Palestinian people. There are still millions of Palestinians living in displaced refugee camps, knowing no life outside of the harshness of the camps in question.


    as "mere ethnic displacement." You've always
    been a piece of shit, Peter, but this is a new low even for you.

    On the contrary, you have treated me as though I were a piece of shit from the get-go,
    Because you were and are.

    [snip idiocy]

    Can you point me to a webpage where
    it is explained how the partition of Palestine and the resulting displacements
    are different in their nature from the partition that created India and Pakistan,
    resulting in the displacement of millions of Hindus living in what became Pakistan
    and millions of Muslims living in what became India?

    Does that make it any better?

    Major backpedal from hate-crazed use of "piece of shit" noted. In particular,
    you cannot cite anything but displacement that is associated with ethnic cleansing:

    "it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction.[2][3][4] It constitutes a crime against humanity and may also fall under the
    Genocide Convention, even as ethnic cleansing has no legal definition under international criminal law.[2][5][6]"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing


    Palestinians are to this day oppressed by
    the Apartheid regime in Israel,

    There is nothing like the original Apartheid in Israel. That is one thing I learned from reading up on
    the Nakba in official Jewish webpages: there are even Muslims in the Knesset,
    I suggest talking to an actual Palestinian for once, and not from pro-Zionist propaganda pages. That's like reading David Irving for an unbiased source on the Holocaust.

    [snip mindless Zionist simping]

    You don't give a shit about Palestinians.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to Glenn on Thu Dec 2 04:53:25 2021
    On Sunday, September 26, 2021 at 10:27:48 PM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
    On Sunday, September 26, 2021 at 6:22:15 PM UTC-7, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/21/2021 11:29 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 11:31:53 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/9/2021 7:31 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:41:18 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote: >>>> On 9/9/2021 10:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 10:48:50 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:

    Based on the criteria of the majority. Even if I am not part of that
    majority, and even if this "hygiene" applies on me.
    Regarding Jews, aren't they the most notorious example? I mean, >>>>>> everybody knows everything about Jews.

    Maybe in your part of Croatia [although I doubt it] but certainly >>>>> not in the USA. The endless harping on the Holocaust -- not that I >>>>> mind most of it, "Schindler's List" was jarring even to me -- drowns out
    anything negative people here say in the media about Jews.

    Lest there be any misunderstanding: I'm glad I saw "Schindler's List," >>> because it brought home to me the utter inhumanity of the Nazi extermination
    campaign like nothing I saw before -- including the ghastly scenes of >>> actual footage in "Judgment at Nuremberg."

    I have to agree that the Holocaust receives a bit too much attention >>>> compared to other genocides and atrocities, like the Native American >>>> Holocaust, or the Naqba when the Zionists ethnically cleansed Palestine
    of almost all of its indigenous people.

    Note the words, "ethnic cleansing." I looked up the word "Nakba," [generally accepted spelling],
    which was new to me, and it turns out that it was only in 1998 that Yasser Arafat actually
    made it a formally observed date, May 15. I saw no sign of any atrocities beyond displacement:
    What makes you think displacement isn't an atrocity in and of itself?

    Interesting how you compare the cold blooded murder of millions of Jews with
    the displacement of peoples.

    Interesting how you whitewash the cold-blooded 75+ year long oppression >> of the Palestinian people

    You are flagrantly, hatefully, moving the goalposts. The Nakba happened about as
    many years ago, and you're pretending I was talking about something else altogether.
    You can't just remove the Nakba from the current experiences of the Palestinian people. There are still millions of Palestinians living in displaced refugee camps, knowing no life outside of the harshness of the camps in question.


    as "mere ethnic displacement." You've always
    been a piece of shit, Peter, but this is a new low even for you.

    On the contrary, you have treated me as though I were a piece of shit from the get-go,
    Because you were and are.

    [snip idiocy]

    Can you point me to a webpage where
    it is explained how the partition of Palestine and the resulting displacements
    are different in their nature from the partition that created India and Pakistan,
    resulting in the displacement of millions of Hindus living in what became Pakistan
    and millions of Muslims living in what became India?

    Does that make it any better?

    Major backpedal from hate-crazed use of "piece of shit" noted. In particular,
    you cannot cite anything but displacement that is associated with ethnic cleansing:

    "it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction.[2][3][4] It constitutes a crime against humanity and may also fall under
    the Genocide Convention, even as ethnic cleansing has no legal definition under international criminal law.[2][5][6]"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing


    Palestinians are to this day oppressed by
    the Apartheid regime in Israel,

    There is nothing like the original Apartheid in Israel. That is one thing I learned from reading up on
    the Nakba in official Jewish webpages: there are even Muslims in the Knesset,

    I suggest talking to an actual Palestinian for once, and not from pro-Zionist propaganda pages. That's like reading David Irving for an unbiased source on the Holocaust.

    [snip mindless Zionist simping]

    What you are seeing is the mindless hate directed at me that this thoroughly unsatisfactory person exhibited almost from the get-go.
    He first called himself Thrinaxodon, posting under the byline "Nyikos repellent" for 101 posts,
    and then attempted to destroy sci.bio.paleontology with voluminous insanely worded spam, day in and day out.
    He even pretended to be Ed Conrad most of the time to make it look like he wasn't the only offender.

    But enough of the early "Oxyaena". The interesting thing here is that you, Glenn,
    had the last word in this off-topic digression from the subject of vaccination,
    and with the following unanswered challenge to boot:


    You don't give a shit about Palestinians.


    I think you hit the nail on the head.

    It will be interesting to see whether this revival of this thread brings Oxyaena back to it.

    But enough about the "new normal" of Oxyaena. I still owe you a thread about "Ancient bornaviruses and modern vaccines"
    to make the subject of vaccination fully on topic.


    But that will have to wait until next week. This is the last week of classes, always the busiest time of the year where my teaching duties are concerned.

    OTOH, I can spare the time to note that the Merriam-Webster dictionary has finally
    updated its long-obsolete definition of "vaccine", which now makes its first meaning the following:

    1 : a preparation that is administered (as by injection) to stimulate the body's immune response against a specific infectious agent or disease
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vaccine

    A detailed and very well written article about the definition change appears here, including the fact that this change appeared in May:
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2021/11/29/vaccine-is-merriam-websters-word-of-the-year-2021/?sh=329fcc525679

    My only major objection to the new definition is that this a little too broad: it ought to say something about how the "preparation" includes some portion of the infectious agent,
    and to save all talk about "disease" to later meanings.

    A lesser but still important objection: Definition 2 comes far down the line, after a very wordy bit about various specific examples, etc.

    But we should be thankful for these lexicographers not adopting the changes the CDC plays with its definition.
    Typically, it was a conservative source that blew the whistle on them:

    https://www.citizensjournal.us/the-cdc-suddenly-changes-the-definition-of-vaccine-and-vaccination/

    It also bothers me that the Merriam-Webster people took so long to make the change.
    The most sensible definition, more sensible than theirs, can be found far down the following webpage:

    https://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/vaccine

    "A preparation using a non-infectious element or relative of a particular virus or bacteria, and administered with the intention of halting the progress of an infection, or completely preventing it.
    Mentioned in: Encephalitis, Hepatitis A, Hepatitis B, Hepatitis E, Smallpox Gale Encyclopedia of Medicine. Copyright 2008 The Gale Group, Inc. All rights reserved."


    Peter Nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 2 06:12:32 2021
    On 12/2/21 4:53 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    I would have supposed that you would have kept this crap in talk.origins
    and out of sci.bio.paleontology. If this wasn't a mistake, it's
    disappointing.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Thu Dec 2 18:46:32 2021
    On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 9:12:38 AM UTC-5, John Harshman wrote:
    On 12/2/21 4:53 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    [in reply to Glenn:]
    I still owe you a thread about
    "Ancient bornaviruses and modern vaccines"
    to make the subject of vaccination fully on topic.

    But that will have to wait until next week. This is the last week of classes, >>always the busiest time of the year where my teaching duties are concerned.

    I would have supposed that you would have kept this crap in talk.origins
    and out of sci.bio.paleontology. If this wasn't a mistake, it's disappointing.

    The real crap is coming from you, and illustrates how you
    are coming to be as much of a troll as JTEM.

    Do something useful and sic Oxyaena, your Useful Idiot, on Glenn and me.


    Peter Nyikos

    PS I've told your greatest benefactor to date, Mark Isaak, to mark well
    how I mark restorations of snipped text. If you didn't see it, that's your problem, not mine.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Thu Dec 2 20:56:53 2021
    On 12/2/21 6:46 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 9:12:38 AM UTC-5, John Harshman wrote:
    On 12/2/21 4:53 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    [in reply to Glenn:]
    I still owe you a thread about
    "Ancient bornaviruses and modern vaccines"
    to make the subject of vaccination fully on topic.

    But that will have to wait until next week. This is the last week of classes,
    always the busiest time of the year where my teaching duties are concerned.

    I would have supposed that you would have kept this crap in talk.origins
    and out of sci.bio.paleontology. If this wasn't a mistake, it's
    disappointing.

    The real crap is coming from you, and illustrates how you
    are coming to be as much of a troll as JTEM.

    Do something useful and sic Oxyaena, your Useful Idiot, on Glenn and me.


    Peter Nyikos

    PS I've told your greatest benefactor to date, Mark Isaak, to mark well
    how I mark restorations of snipped text. If you didn't see it, that's your problem, not mine.

    Please do not post off-topic threads to sci.bio.paleontology. Even
    ancient viruses are not on topic. Why are you doing this here?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Fri Dec 3 04:23:36 2021
    On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 11:57:00 PM UTC-5, John Harshman wrote:
    On 12/2/21 6:46 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 9:12:38 AM UTC-5, John Harshman wrote:
    On 12/2/21 4:53 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    [in reply to Glenn:]
    I still owe you a thread about
    "Ancient bornaviruses and modern vaccines"
    to make the subject of vaccination fully on topic.

    But that will have to wait until next week. This is the last week of classes,
    always the busiest time of the year where my teaching duties are concerned.

    I would have supposed that you would have kept this crap in talk.origins >> and out of sci.bio.paleontology. If this wasn't a mistake, it's
    disappointing.

    The real crap is coming from you, and illustrates how you
    are coming to be as much of a troll as JTEM.

    Do something useful and sic Oxyaena, your Useful Idiot, on Glenn and me.


    Peter Nyikos

    PS I've told your greatest benefactor to date, Mark Isaak, to mark well
    how I mark restorations of snipped text. If you didn't see it, that's your problem, not mine.


    John, why do you openly flaunt your hypocrisy with crap like the following?

    Please do not post off-topic threads to sci.bio.paleontology.

    The thread which you idiotically accuse me of "posting"
    has been a long running one, and you've contributed off-topic stuff
    to it yourself several times, such as the following, on September 9:

    "Turns out that SARS-Cov-2 doesn't generally lyse cells. Instead it
    coopts the lysosome to exit. And it appears that nobody actually knows
    for sure how the virus damages the body. Still, it isn't the spike
    protein that does it."

    Please do not ask me to refrain from doing things that you have quite willingly done thousands of times in sci.bio.paleontology, especially since you
    helped Erik Simpson destroy, early in 2018, the oasis of civilization that the three of
    us had made of s.b.p. in 2015.


    Even ancient viruses are not on topic.

    Once you see how I treat the topic, you will see that it is intimately connected with mammalian paleontology.


    Why are you doing this here?

    Wrong question. More honest would be,
    "Why were you and Glenn talking so negatively about my admirer, Oxyaena?"

    That's the real reason you snipped EVERYTHING of the post to which you were replying, isn't it?
    You couldn't stand the way it showed that Glenn had the last word against Oxyaena
    on a thoroughly off-topic and incendiary subject, could you?

    Be that as it may: if you have any insight into your own motivations, ask yourself:

    "Why was it worthwhile for me, John Harshman, to so openly show what a hypocrite
    I am about off-topic posting?"


    Peter Nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Harshman@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Fri Dec 3 06:25:05 2021
    On 12/3/21 4:23 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 11:57:00 PM UTC-5, John Harshman wrote:
    On 12/2/21 6:46 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 9:12:38 AM UTC-5, John Harshman wrote: >>>> On 12/2/21 4:53 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    [in reply to Glenn:]
    I still owe you a thread about
    "Ancient bornaviruses and modern vaccines"
    to make the subject of vaccination fully on topic.

    But that will have to wait until next week. This is the last week of classes,
    always the busiest time of the year where my teaching duties are concerned.

    I would have supposed that you would have kept this crap in talk.origins >>>> and out of sci.bio.paleontology. If this wasn't a mistake, it's
    disappointing.

    The real crap is coming from you, and illustrates how you
    are coming to be as much of a troll as JTEM.

    Do something useful and sic Oxyaena, your Useful Idiot, on Glenn and me. >>>

    Peter Nyikos

    PS I've told your greatest benefactor to date, Mark Isaak, to mark well
    how I mark restorations of snipped text. If you didn't see it, that's your problem, not mine.


    John, why do you openly flaunt your hypocrisy with crap like the following?

    Please do not post off-topic threads to sci.bio.paleontology.

    The thread which you idiotically accuse me of "posting"
    has been a long running one, and you've contributed off-topic stuff
    to it yourself several times, such as the following, on September 9:

    It's been dormant so long that everything except that post had
    disappeared from my feed. Why revive it? It shouldn't have been here to
    begin with.

    "Turns out that SARS-Cov-2 doesn't generally lyse cells. Instead it
    coopts the lysosome to exit. And it appears that nobody actually knows
    for sure how the virus damages the body. Still, it isn't the spike
    protein that does it."

    Please do not ask me to refrain from doing things that you have quite willingly
    done thousands of times in sci.bio.paleontology, especially since you
    helped Erik Simpson destroy, early in 2018, the oasis of civilization that the three of
    us had made of s.b.p. in 2015.

    Even ancient viruses are not on topic.

    Once you see how I treat the topic, you will see that it is intimately connected with mammalian paleontology.

    If so, why aren't you doing that rather than all the personal attacks
    you're actually indulging in?

    Why are you doing this here?

    Wrong question. More honest would be,
    "Why were you and Glenn talking so negatively about my admirer, Oxyaena?"

    That's the real reason you snipped EVERYTHING of the post to which you were replying, isn't it?
    You couldn't stand the way it showed that Glenn had the last word against Oxyaena
    on a thoroughly off-topic and incendiary subject, could you?

    Be that as it may: if you have any insight into your own motivations, ask yourself:

    "Why was it worthwhile for me, John Harshman, to so openly show what a hypocrite
    I am about off-topic posting?"

    Two failed attempts as guessing my motivations. Can't you see how you
    are viewing everything through a bizarre worldview of alliances and
    cartels? Oxyaena is not my admirer. I don't much care what you say about Oxyaena, except that it's off-topic. I do care that you attempt to draw
    Glenn here, because he contributes only noise. But in future I will
    attempt not to respond to off-topic posts. You could try that too.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Peter Nyikos@21:1/5 to John Harshman on Fri Dec 3 12:03:18 2021
    Harshman, you still don't seem to realize that this thread has been going
    since August 30, when Mario Petrinovic did the OP and another post, and you were the
    very first new contributor on the same day, and you posted copiously to it for the next few weeks.

    More about that below. I will now use an idiom with which Mario may not be familiar,
    but I'm sure he has enough street smarts to catch on to how it is used.

    You, John Harshman, opened the barn door two posts ago, and let the horse of your monumental hypocrisy out. You are desperately closing the barn
    door with all kinds of diversionary tactics below, but the horse is at large and you will never catch it as long as I post to sci.bio.paleontology or talk.origins.

    On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 9:25:26 AM UTC-5, John Harshman wrote:
    On 12/3/21 4:23 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 11:57:00 PM UTC-5, John Harshman wrote:
    On 12/2/21 6:46 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 9:12:38 AM UTC-5, John Harshman wrote: >>>> On 12/2/21 4:53 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    [in reply to Glenn:]
    I still owe you a thread about
    "Ancient bornaviruses and modern vaccines"
    to make the subject of vaccination fully on topic.

    But that will have to wait until next week. This is the last week of classes,
    always the busiest time of the year where my teaching duties are concerned.

    I would have supposed that you would have kept this crap in talk.origins >>>> and out of sci.bio.paleontology. If this wasn't a mistake, it's
    disappointing.

    The real crap is coming from you, and illustrates how you
    are coming to be as much of a troll as JTEM.

    Do something useful and sic Oxyaena, your Useful Idiot, on Glenn and me. >>>

    Peter Nyikos

    PS I've told your greatest benefactor to date, Mark Isaak, to mark well >>> how I mark restorations of snipped text. If you didn't see it, that's your problem, not mine.


    Here is where I called attention to your opening of the barn door, John:

    John, why do you openly flaunt your hypocrisy with crap like the following?

    Please do not post off-topic threads to sci.bio.paleontology.

    This would be funny if it weren't so revealing of what a flagrant
    "Do as I say, not as I do" hypocrite you are about posting off topic.


    The thread which you idiotically accuse me of "posting"
    has been a long running one, and you've contributed off-topic stuff
    to it yourself several times, such as the following, on September 9:

    It's been dormant so long that everything except that post had
    disappeared from my feed.

    You've just given a good reason for truth seekers to avoid
    subscribing to your chosen giganews and abandoning Google Groups,
    and also explains why a hypocrite like yourself, who does not
    like reminders of just HOW hypocritical he is, to choose it over Google Groups.


    Why revive it? It shouldn't have been here to
    begin with.

    That's really funny, as though you were admitting that you had made a stupid mistake by posting copiously to a thread that shouldn't be here.

    The one example I gave below was quite innocuous. In stunning contrast, as part of your copious posting,
    you accused Mario of being a Nazi and ignored his rebuttal, then announced
    that you would no longer talk to him on account of your "diagnosis".

    Yes, it was a stupid mistake to post such things. But you sure didn't seem to care when you did it.


    "Turns out that SARS-Cov-2 doesn't generally lyse cells. Instead it
    coopts the lysosome to exit. And it appears that nobody actually knows
    for sure how the virus damages the body. Still, it isn't the spike
    protein that does it."

    Please do not ask me to refrain from doing things that you have quite willingly
    done thousands of times in sci.bio.paleontology, especially since you helped Erik Simpson destroy, early in 2018, the oasis of civilization that the three of
    us had made of s.b.p. in 2015.

    Even ancient viruses are not on topic.

    Once you see how I treat the topic, you will see that it is intimately connected with mammalian paleontology.


    If so, why aren't you doing that

    Because it takes a long time to display all its ramifications; and as I told Glenn,
    a few posts ago, this is the busiest week of the semester for me.
    It's still preserved in the text at the beginning of this post.


    rather than all the personal attacks
    you're actually indulging in?

    What are you calling "personal attacks"? When I catch you in attacks directed at me, your standard dodge is, "I wasn't attacking, I was just making an observation."

    And, unfortunately for you, I have an open and shut case of the statement
    that you sugar-coated with "Please" being an expression of a flagrant double standard.
    That's more than can be said for most of your "observations."

    No wonder your kind doesn't like to be aware of the past history of their misbehavior.


    Remainder deleted, to be replied to later.

    Sneak preview: it features a diversionary tactic by you that stands alone by itself:
    you tried to deflect attention from a question which you dared not try to answer.
    That's not much of a spoiler, since you managed to cram quite a lot of mendacity into one paragraph.


    Peter Nyikos

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oxyaena@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Sun Dec 5 15:06:08 2021
    On 12/2/2021 9:46 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, December 2, 2021 at 9:12:38 AM UTC-5, John Harshman wrote:
    On 12/2/21 4:53 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:

    [in reply to Glenn:]
    I still owe you a thread about
    "Ancient bornaviruses and modern vaccines"
    to make the subject of vaccination fully on topic.

    But that will have to wait until next week. This is the last week of classes,
    always the busiest time of the year where my teaching duties are concerned.

    I would have supposed that you would have kept this crap in talk.origins
    and out of sci.bio.paleontology. If this wasn't a mistake, it's
    disappointing.

    The real crap is coming from you, and illustrates how you
    are coming to be as much of a troll as JTEM.

    Pure projection.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Oxyaena@21:1/5 to Peter Nyikos on Sun Dec 5 15:05:00 2021
    On 12/2/2021 7:53 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Sunday, September 26, 2021 at 10:27:48 PM UTC-4, Glenn wrote:
    On Sunday, September 26, 2021 at 6:22:15 PM UTC-7, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/21/2021 11:29 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Friday, September 10, 2021 at 11:31:53 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote:
    On 9/9/2021 7:31 PM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Thursday, September 9, 2021 at 4:41:18 PM UTC-4, Oxyaena wrote: >>>>>>> On 9/9/2021 10:50 AM, Peter Nyikos wrote:
    On Wednesday, September 8, 2021 at 10:48:50 PM UTC-4, Mario Petrinovic wrote:

    Based on the criteria of the majority. Even if I am not part of that >>>>>>>>> majority, and even if this "hygiene" applies on me.
    Regarding Jews, aren't they the most notorious example? I mean, >>>>>>>>> everybody knows everything about Jews.

    Maybe in your part of Croatia [although I doubt it] but certainly >>>>>>>> not in the USA. The endless harping on the Holocaust -- not that I >>>>>>>> mind most of it, "Schindler's List" was jarring even to me -- drowns out
    anything negative people here say in the media about Jews.

    Lest there be any misunderstanding: I'm glad I saw "Schindler's List," >>>>>> because it brought home to me the utter inhumanity of the Nazi extermination
    campaign like nothing I saw before -- including the ghastly scenes of >>>>>> actual footage in "Judgment at Nuremberg."

    I have to agree that the Holocaust receives a bit too much attention >>>>>>> compared to other genocides and atrocities, like the Native American >>>>>>> Holocaust, or the Naqba when the Zionists ethnically cleansed Palestine >>>>>>> of almost all of its indigenous people.

    Note the words, "ethnic cleansing." I looked up the word "Nakba," [generally accepted spelling],
    which was new to me, and it turns out that it was only in 1998 that Yasser Arafat actually
    made it a formally observed date, May 15. I saw no sign of any atrocities beyond displacement:
    What makes you think displacement isn't an atrocity in and of itself?

    Interesting how you compare the cold blooded murder of millions of Jews with
    the displacement of peoples.

    Interesting how you whitewash the cold-blooded 75+ year long oppression >>>>> of the Palestinian people

    You are flagrantly, hatefully, moving the goalposts. The Nakba happened about as
    many years ago, and you're pretending I was talking about something else altogether.
    You can't just remove the Nakba from the current experiences of the
    Palestinian people. There are still millions of Palestinians living in
    displaced refugee camps, knowing no life outside of the harshness of the >>> camps in question.


    as "mere ethnic displacement." You've always
    been a piece of shit, Peter, but this is a new low even for you.

    On the contrary, you have treated me as though I were a piece of shit from the get-go,
    Because you were and are.

    [snip idiocy]

    Can you point me to a webpage where
    it is explained how the partition of Palestine and the resulting displacements
    are different in their nature from the partition that created India and Pakistan,
    resulting in the displacement of millions of Hindus living in what became Pakistan
    and millions of Muslims living in what became India?

    Does that make it any better?

    Major backpedal from hate-crazed use of "piece of shit" noted. In particular,
    you cannot cite anything but displacement that is associated with ethnic cleansing:

    "it also includes indirect methods aimed at forced migration by coercing the victim group to flee and preventing its return, such as murder, rape, and property destruction.[2][3][4] It constitutes a crime against humanity and may also fall under the
    Genocide Convention, even as ethnic cleansing has no legal definition under international criminal law.[2][5][6]"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing


    Palestinians are to this day oppressed by
    the Apartheid regime in Israel,

    There is nothing like the original Apartheid in Israel. That is one thing I learned from reading up on
    the Nakba in official Jewish webpages: there are even Muslims in the Knesset,

    I suggest talking to an actual Palestinian for once, and not from
    pro-Zionist propaganda pages. That's like reading David Irving for an
    unbiased source on the Holocaust.

    [snip mindless Zionist simping]

    What you are seeing is the mindless hate directed at me that this thoroughly unsatisfactory person exhibited almost from the get-go.
    He first called himself Thrinaxodon, posting under the byline "Nyikos repellent" for 101 posts,
    and then attempted to destroy sci.bio.paleontology with voluminous insanely worded spam, day in and day out.
    He even pretended to be Ed Conrad most of the time to make it look like he wasn't the only offender.

    Agh you transphobic fuck. How many times do I have to tell you NOT to
    refer to my by those pronouns?



    But enough of the early "Oxyaena". The interesting thing here is that you, Glenn,
    had the last word in this off-topic digression from the subject of vaccination,
    and with the following unanswered challenge to boot:


    You don't give a shit about Palestinians.


    I think you hit the nail on the head.

    It will be interesting to see whether this revival of this thread brings Oxyaena back to it.

    Given your predilection for reviving zombie threads for the sole purpose
    of stirring up as much shit as possible.....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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