• Constant orientation to Polaris is an orbital trait.

    From Gerald Kelleher@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 3 07:58:44 2023
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYy0EQBnqHI

    If a person's body represents the Earth and the floor represents the orbital plane, the particulars of the North pole represent a person's nose within this scheme. The conclusion contained in the constantly fixed orientation to Polar (excluding stellar
    circumpolar motion).

    " The third is the motion in declination. For, the axis of the daily rotation is not parallel to the Grand Orb's axis but is inclined [to it at an angle that intercepts] a portion of a circumference, in our time, about 23 1/2°. Therefore, while the
    earth's centre always remains in the plane of the ecliptic, that is, in the circumference of a circle of the Grand Orb, the earth's poles rotate, both of them describing small circles about centres [lying on a line that moves] parallel to the Grand Orb's
    axis. The period of this motion also is a year, but not quite, being nearly equal to the Grand Orb's [revolution]." Copernicus,Commentariolus

    http://copernicus.torun.pl/en/archives/astronomical/1/?view=transkrypcja&

    I am sorry that few, if anybody, can handle the technical arguments for the traits of orbital motion even when time-lapse is available for this orbital component-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=612gSZsplpE

    Like the Earth's Uranus keeps the same orbital orientation in space, so by definition, the planet must turn once to the central Sun as a function of its orbital motion.

    Creating strawmen doesn't absolve the utter desecration of astronomy through a planet with a zero-degree inclination and a pivoting light/dark hemispheres of the Earth to suit RA/Dec modelling.

    People have no shame and no enjoyment.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Quadibloc@21:1/5 to kellehe...@gmail.com on Tue Jan 3 10:21:43 2023
    On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 8:58:46 AM UTC-7, kellehe...@gmail.com wrote:

    Like the Earth's Uranus keeps the same orbital orientation in space,

    Funny you mention Uranus. The Earth could orbit the Sun in the plane of the Ecliptic, and yet its poles could be pointed in the same direction Uranus' poles
    are... at a star just south of the orbital plane, instead of one only some 23 and
    a half degrees away from the north point in the direction perpendicular to the orbital plane.

    This ought to be enough to make it clear - even to you - that the Earth's constant
    orientation to Polaris is a *rotational* trait, and not an *orbital* trait at all.

    John Savard

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gerald Kelleher@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 3 11:50:22 2023
    The relationship between Polaris and the North pole is specific and excludes stellar circumpolar motion to discern the relationship between the North polar latitude and the central Sun. The North pole has a zero daily rotational velocity, yet it
    experiences a single day/night cycle with one sunrise on the March Equinox, one sunset on the September Equinox and noon on the June Solstice.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=612gSZsplpE

    The radius between the North pole and the light hemisphere is beginning to contract, and with it, the circumference of an area where the Sun remains out of sight.

    The Polaris effect is, therefore, an orbital trait signifying the Earth turns in two distinct ways to the Sun.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From palsing@21:1/5 to kellehe...@gmail.com on Tue Jan 3 12:11:47 2023
    On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 11:50:24 AM UTC-8, kellehe...@gmail.com wrote:
    The relationship between Polaris and the North pole is specific and excludes stellar circumpolar motion to discern the relationship between the North polar latitude and the central Sun. The North pole has a zero daily rotational velocity, yet it
    experiences a single day/night cycle with one sunrise on the March Equinox, one sunset on the September Equinox and noon on the June Solstice.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=612gSZsplpE

    The radius between the North pole and the light hemisphere is beginning to contract, and with it, the circumference of an area where the Sun remains out of sight.

    The Polaris effect is, therefore, an orbital trait signifying the Earth turns in two distinct ways to the Sun.

    “It is impossible for a man to learn what he thinks he already knows.”
    - Epictetus

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Quadibloc@21:1/5 to Mikko on Thu Jan 5 06:10:48 2023
    On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 6:24:20 AM UTC-7, Mikko wrote:

    Excluding stellar circumpolar motion, there is nothing special in Polaris.

    Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read.

    What you have said is so true, but I fear it will not be understood. Of course, the North Celestial Pole, which is currently very near to Polaris, is one of two
    points in the sky where stellar circumpolar motion does not take place.

    So initially I just thought his post was... garbled... on this point. But if
    he really is trying to dismiss stellar circumpolar motion as _irrelevant_
    to the significance of the Pole Star, indeed, he could not be more wrong.

    But he doesn't have a problem with the Earth rotating. It's just that he strongly feels the Earth's rotation should be considered as *relative to
    the Sun* and the path of the Earth's orbit, _not_ to the fixed stars. It's illegitimate for the Earth to go over the Sun's head and deal with the
    stars directly, in his picture of the Solar System.

    If the Earth didn't rotate at all, there would be nothing special about Polaris, but if its rotation is slowed down by one part in 365, Polaris
    would still be special.

    Astronomers view the Earth's rotation with respect to the fixed stars
    as simple, because it is uniform - except for tiny variations caused
    by momentum being transferred between the Earth and its atmosphere
    due to seasonal changes in the wind. The Earth's rotation with respect
    to the Sun, on the other hand, is complicated, as shown in the Equation
    of Time, because the Earth's orbit is both elliptical and tilted with
    respect to the Earth's equatorial plane.

    But because he is completely unconcerned with stuff like calculating
    the Sun's apparent position in the sky, regarding mathematics as
    something irrelevant to the true understanding of the Solar System
    that we should cultivate... he is immune to seeing why viewing Earth's
    rotation with respect to the Sun as simple, and stellar circumpolar
    motion as the composite of two rotations is exactly backwards, and
    would needlessly complicate astronomy.

    John Savard

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Mikko@21:1/5 to Gerald Kelleher on Thu Jan 5 15:24:17 2023
    On 2023-01-03 15:58:44 +0000, Gerald Kelleher said:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYy0EQBnqHI

    If a person's body represents the Earth and the floor represents the
    orbital plane, the particulars of the North pole represent a person's
    nose within this scheme. The conclusion contained in the constantly
    fixed orientation to Polar (excluding stellar circumpolar motion).

    Excluding stellar circumpolar motion, there is nothing special in Polaris.
    As Quadibloc already pointed out, orientation to Polaris is a rotational
    trait.
    As Copericus observed, that orientation is not exactly constant.

    Mikko

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Quadibloc@21:1/5 to Quadibloc on Thu Jan 5 06:49:46 2023
    On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 7:10:51 AM UTC-7, Quadibloc wrote:

    Astronomers view the Earth's rotation with respect to the fixed stars
    as simple, because it is uniform - except for tiny variations caused
    by momentum being transferred between the Earth and its atmosphere
    due to seasonal changes in the wind. The Earth's rotation with respect
    to the Sun, on the other hand, is complicated, as shown in the Equation
    of Time, because the Earth's orbit is both elliptical and tilted with
    respect to the Earth's equatorial plane.

    As I've noted before, due to something that happened to me in Junior
    High School, I am able to understand his point of view to an extent.

    Our science textbooks included a little table of facts about the
    Solar System. Across the top were the planets, from Mercury
    to Pluto. Below them were rows giving various pieces of information
    about them: their distances from the Sun, the lengths of their years,
    their diameters, their masses, their surface gravities (perhaps), and
    the "Length of Day" for each planet.

    This was not only back when Pluto was a planet, it was also back
    when it was believed that one side of Mercury always faced the
    Sun, and was incredibly hot, while the other side was in perpetual
    darkness and incredibly cold.

    For the planet Earth, the length of the day was given as 23 hours and
    56 minutes.

    I happen to live on the planet Earth, and I can tell you that clocks here
    take exactly 12 hours before their hands point in the same directions
    again. Not 11 hours and 58 minutes. And so, if the day _was_ 23
    hours and 56 minutes long, the time at which we ate lunch would
    drift through the solar day in the course of a year, leading to people
    having their meal at 12 noon... in the dark... six months after they
    were eating it when the Sun was directly overhead (or, at least,
    on the meridian, for those not living on the Equator).

    But I eventually figured out what was going on. The length of the
    day for Mercury was given as 88 days. Not _forever_, or infinity.

    So the table was listing the *sidereal rotational periods* of the
    planets, instead of the actual length of the day on those planets...
    (at least, as best it was known at the time) because the people
    who compiled the table were lazy.

    Fine. Stuff like this happens.

    And the fact that the 24 hour solar cycle is important and
    fundamental to our daily lives, while the 23 hour and 56
    minute (and 4 second!) "sidereal day" is a technical matter
    only of concern to professional astronomers... does *not*
    in any way stand in contradiction to the Earth's rotation,
    in relation to the fixed stars, and hence to absolute space,
    being the fundamental, simple, and uniform motion, while
    the apparent path of the Sun in the sky corresponds to
    a _compound_ motion, derived from *both* the Earth's
    orbit and its rotation, which therefore is more complicated,
    as reflected in the Equation of Time.

    Because science probes more deeply into things, with
    specialized tools like microscopes, and so naturally it
    obtains greater knowledge than is accessible to ordinary
    everyday observation, and which will sometimes contradict
    surface appearances.

    So there is nothing at all surprising that the length of the
    day is 24 hours, and the Earth rotates once every 23 hours,
    56 minutes and 4 seconds. Both of these statements are
    facts, and both of them should be fully acknowledged as
    true.

    Ignoring the 24 hour day which regulates our daily lives
    and fixating only on the sidereal rotational period would be
    making exactly the opposite mistake as the one he makes,
    and it would be just as wrong.

    The time between the Sun being in the sky, giving us light
    by which to see, and the stars being out at night, is a real
    and very obvious phenomenon (except very near the poles)
    and being aware of the underlying machinery behind it,
    and the mathematics needed to work out how to correct
    the time on sundials, and so on... doesn't make the cycle of
    day and night go away.

    John Savard

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gerald Kelleher@21:1/5 to Mikko on Thu Jan 5 06:40:42 2023
    On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 1:24:20 PM UTC, Mikko wrote:
    On 2023-01-03 15:58:44 +0000, Gerald Kelleher said:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYy0EQBnqHI

    If a person's body represents the Earth and the floor represents the orbital plane, the particulars of the North pole represent a person's
    nose within this scheme. The conclusion contained in the constantly
    fixed orientation to Polar (excluding stellar circumpolar motion).
    Excluding stellar circumpolar motion, there is nothing special in Polaris. As Quadibloc already pointed out, orientation to Polaris is a rotational trait.
    As Copericus observed, that orientation is not exactly constant.

    Mikko

    The North polar latitude is special as it represents the position on the surface as a function of daily rotation, which has a zero rotational velocity, yet that location experiences a single day/night cycle every orbit as a function of orbital motion.

    "He [Copernicus] thus speaks of "sunrise" and "sunset," of the "rising and setting" of the stars, of changes in the obliquity of the ecliptic and of variations in the equinoctial points, of the mean motion and variations in motion of the sun, and so on.
    All these things really relate to the earth, but since we are fixed to the earth and consequently share in its every motion, we cannot discover them in the earth directly and are obliged to refer them to the heavenly bodies in which they make their
    appearance to us. Hence we name them as if they took place where they appear to us to take place, and from this, one may see how natural it is to accommodate things to our customary way of seeing them." Galileo

    To determine the reason for the annual day/cycle at the North/South poles requires an external reference, so, in this case, the star Polaris serves that purpose while excluding stellar circumpolar motion. The reference between Polaris and the North pole
    provides the changing relationship between the North pole and the central Sun and specifically the expanding and contracting circumference where the Sun constantly remains in view or out of sight across an orbit.

    The primary function of any solar system researcher is to interpret observations therefore, the primary observation is from the time-lapse of Uranus as it rotates in two separate ways to the Sun-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=612gSZsplpE&t=28s

    You are free to argue against what that time-lapse is dictating with the reference being the light hemisphere while the dark hemisphere of Uranus remains out of sight.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gerald Kelleher@21:1/5 to Mikko on Thu Jan 5 09:50:26 2023
    On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 1:24:20 PM UTC, Mikko wrote:
    On 2023-01-03 15:58:44 +0000, Gerald Kelleher said:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYy0EQBnqHI

    If a person's body represents the Earth and the floor represents the orbital plane, the particulars of the North pole represent a person's
    nose within this scheme. The conclusion contained in the constantly
    fixed orientation to Polar (excluding stellar circumpolar motion).
    Excluding stellar circumpolar motion, there is nothing special in Polaris. As Quadibloc already pointed out, orientation to Polaris is a rotational trait.
    As Copericus observed, that orientation is not exactly constant.

    Mikko

    The only meaningful change in the position of the background stars is derived from the orbital motion of the Earth using the central Sun as a foreground reference-

    https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

    Copernicus and his contemporaries had to rely on the Ptolemaic framework, which has the Sun move directly through the background stars defining the ecliptic-

    http://astro.dur.ac.uk/~ams/users/sun_ecliptic.gif

    With the Sun as a central or foreground reference, it is then possible to view the back-and-forth motions (direct/retrograde motions) of the faster-moving inner planets closer to the Sun at the centre of all our motions.

    From this use of the change in position of the stars parallel to the orbital plane, the next insight is the nature of that orbital motion which uses Polaris as a fixed orbital reference. So here we have two references for orbital motion, one which
    confirms the Earth orbits the Sun and the second insight that the external reference of Polaris from the North polar latitude where rotational velocity is zero, determines a surface rotation to the Sun.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gerald Kelleher@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jan 6 03:18:20 2023
    The fixed reference of Sirius is an extension of the change in the position of the background stars parallel to the orbital plane-

    https://sol24.net/data/html/SOHO/C3/96H/VIDEO/

    The first annual appearance of Sirius, as it is lost to the glare of the Sun for some weeks, is the reference for the Earth's orbital position in space. Just as Mercury is presently transitioning from an evening appearance (left of the central Sun) to a
    morning appearance (right of the Sun) as it is currently lost to the glare of the Sun, then so does Sirius as a heliacal rising within the Decans and the foundation of all timekeeping - the 365/366-day calendar system.

    https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap181123.html

    Please look at how enjoyable all this is in its expanded format and narratives. It must be tough, apart from the hapless, to fall silent on these astronomical matters that the jargon-spouting theorists and their cheerleaders can't discuss nor consider
    out of indiscipline or dull nature.

    They say there are 10,000 professional astronomers currently in existence, but these people are really theorists who try to associate stellar circumpolar motion with daily rotation by excluding the crucial annual change in the position of the stars, and
    they try to account for the solar system and Universal structure off the Earth's daily rotational characteristics and a 24-hour clock. The lowest of the low to which this celestial sphere or RA/Dec framework has sunk is a pivoting light/dark hemispheres
    off the Earth's rotational Equator on a planet with a zero-degree inclination-

    https://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap210922.html

    No society or person deserves this, not even the completely hapless here.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gerald Kelleher@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 11 09:57:41 2023
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYy0EQBnqHI

    Genuinely solar system researchers would find the observation above as an orbital trait to be delightful by excluding circumpolar motion of the stars due to daily rotation while the North/South poles represent the fixed point in space by which to discern
    the exact traits of our planet's orbital motion.

    Of all the billions of people on the surface of the planet, there would have to be a few who can discern the dual surface rotations which make the seasons people and eventually determine climate, if not by the ability to use their visual perceptive
    faculties then by visual affirmation-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=612gSZsplpE

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gerald Kelleher@21:1/5 to Gerald Kelleher on Wed Jan 11 13:56:40 2023
    On Wednesday, January 11, 2023 at 5:57:43 PM UTC, Gerald Kelleher wrote:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYy0EQBnqHI

    Genuinely solar system researchers would find the observation above as an orbital trait to be delightful by excluding circumpolar motion of the stars due to daily rotation while the North/South poles represent the fixed point in space by which to
    discern the exact traits of our planet's orbital motion.

    Of all the billions of people on the surface of the planet, there would have to be a few who can discern the dual surface rotations which make the seasons people and eventually determine climate, if not by the ability to use their visual perceptive
    faculties then by visual affirmation-

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=612gSZsplpE


    The last comment was poorly written and not up to the standard of the material at hand.

    Unlike many, I take my contributions to this newsgroup seriously, as much of the material is new.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)