From my book "In den beginne was het water" (Hadewijch Antwerp 1997) p.171: "Toen in 1908 Otto Hauser de Neanderthaler van Le Moustier opgroef, onderscheidde hij nog de afdruk van de uitwendige neus:
de neusgaten stonden meer naar voren, verder op de neustop dan bij ons."

That is what Hauser said, according to P.Moerman "In het spoor van de Neanderthal-mens" (Boekerij Baarn NL1977).

What is/was the function of the philtrum, a typically human trait?
Our philtrum fits nicely to the columella:
when you place 2 fingers under your upper lip and try to inhale, your upper lip blocks your nostrils:
IOW, prognathic H.erectus could perfectly close his nostrils.

No doubt to run after kudus... :-DDD

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I meant 2 fingers a bit apart. Or use 3 fingers: as in prognathism.
Our external nose (no use any more) is probably a rudiment of a bigger nose. The exact anatomy of the philtrum + columella shows archaic Homo could close the nostrils.
No doubt to run after antelopes... :-DDD

From my book "In den beginne was het water" (Hadewijch Antwerp 1997) p.171: "Toen in 1908 Otto Hauser de Neanderthaler van Le Moustier opgroef, onderscheidde hij nog de afdruk van de uitwendige neus:
de neusgaten stonden meer naar voren, verder op de neustop dan bij ons."

That is what Hauser said, according to P.Moerman "In het spoor van de Neanderthal-mens" (Boekerij Baarn NL1977).

What is/was the function of the philtrum, a typically human trait?
Our philtrum fits nicely to the columella:
when you place 2 fingers under your upper lip and try to inhale, your upper lip blocks your nostrils:
IOW, prognathic H.erectus could perfectly close his nostrils.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tue, 7 Sep 2021 15:33:37 -0700 (PDT), "littor...@gmail.com" <littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:

From my book "In den beginne was het water" (Hadewijch Antwerp 1997) p.171: >"Toen in 1908 Otto Hauser de Neanderthaler van Le Moustier opgroef, onderscheidde hij nog de afdruk van de uitwendige neus:
de neusgaten stonden meer naar voren, verder op de neustop dan bij ons."

That is what Hauser said, according to P.Moerman "In het spoor van de Neanderthal-mens" (Boekerij Baarn NL1977).

Let's see what Hauser really said. The original paper "D�couverte d�un squelette du type du Neandertal sous l�abri inf�rieur du Moustier" is
available here: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5864483g/f16.image.r=hauser?rk=42918;4#

On page 6 it reads:
"le nez avait �t� prot�g� par deux morceaux de silex, dont l'un
appliqu� sur le dos du nez et l'autre.sur sa base. La position de ce
dernier silex, qui est en forme de plaque, montre que les narines
n'�taient pas dirig�es de haut en bas, mais d'arri�re en avant, avec
une l�g�re inclinaison de haut en bas."

(the nose had been protected by two pieces of flint, one of which is
applied to the back of the nose and the other on its base. The
position of this last flint, which is plate-shaped, shows that the
nostrils were not directed downwards, but forwards, with a slight tilt downwards.)

In other words, Hauser did not infer the shape of the nose from an
original soft tissue impression, but indirectly from the position of
two pieces of flint.
That's a highly questionable approach to soft tissue reconstruction.

What is/was the function of the philtrum, a typically human trait?
Our philtrum fits nicely to the columella:
when you place 2 fingers under your upper lip and try to inhale, your upper lip blocks your nostrils:
IOW, prognathic H.erectus could perfectly close his nostrils.

We don't know the shape of the soft tissue of the external nose of H.
erectus. More likely the greater subnasal prognathism would increase
the distance between upper lip and nares.

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/File:Turkana_boy_-_steps_of_forensic_facial_reconstruction_RTL.jpg

All other semi(aquatics) can close the nares directly by narial
muscles.

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Op woensdag 8 september 2021 om 19:08:05 UTC+2 schreef Pandora:

From my book "In den beginne was het water" (Hadewijch Antwerp 1997) p.171: >"Toen in 1908 Otto Hauser de Neanderthaler van Le Moustier opgroef, onderscheidde hij nog de afdruk van de uitwendige neus:
de neusgaten stonden meer naar voren, verder op de neustop dan bij ons." >That is what Hauser said, according to P.Moerman "In het spoor van de Neanderthal-mens" (Boekerij Baarn NL1977).

Let's see what Hauser really said. The original paper "Découverte d’un squelette du type du Neandertal sous l’abri inférieur du Moustier" is available here: https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k5864483g/f16.image.r=hauser?rk=42918;4#
On page 6 it reads:
"le nez avait été protégé par deux morceaux de silex, dont l'un appliqué sur le dos du nez et l'autre.sur sa base. La position de ce dernier silex, qui est en forme de plaque, montre que les narines
n'étaient pas dirigées de haut en bas, mais d'arrière en avant, avec
une légère inclinaison de haut en bas."
(the nose had been protected by two pieces of flint, one of which is
applied to the back of the nose and the other on its base. The
position of this last flint, which is plate-shaped, shows that the
nostrils were not directed downwards, but forwards, with a slight tilt downwards.)
In other words, Hauser did not infer the shape of the nose from an
original soft tissue impression, but indirectly from the position of
two pieces of flint.
That's a highly questionable approach to soft tissue reconstruction.

Indeed. Thanks for the text.

What is/was the function of the philtrum, a typically human trait?
Our philtrum fits nicely to the columella:
when you place 2 fingers under your upper lip and try to inhale, your upper lip blocks your nostrils:

2 fingers a bit apart, or 3 fingers, as in prognathism.

IOW, prognathic H.erectus could perfectly close his nostrils.

We don't know the shape of the soft tissue of the external nose of H. erectus. More likely the greater subnasal prognathism would increase
the distance between upper lip and nares.

Not at all.

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/File:Turkana_boy_-_steps_of_forensic_facial_reconstruction_RTL.jpg

Racist reconstruction: it believes that our ancestors were more like Africans.

All other semi(aquatics) can close the nares directly by narial
muscles.

We still have rudiments of nostirl opening & closing muscles,
google e.g. "musculus dilatator naris".

Same with our nose: is now rudimentary: was probably larger: hook-nose?

Some humans can still open/close their nostrils, altough we're not regularly diving any more.

Conclusion: our fat & naked ancestors evolved big noses to run after kudus... :-DDD

Google:
"coastal dispersal Pleistocene Homo PPT".

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littor...@gmail.com wrote:

From my book "In den beginne was het water" (Hadewijch Antwerp 1997) p.171: "Toen in 1908 Otto Hauser de Neanderthaler van Le Moustier opgroef, onderscheidde hij nog de afdruk van de uitwendige neus:
de neusgaten stonden meer naar voren, verder op de neustop dan bij ons."

That is what Hauser said, according to P.Moerman "In het spoor van de Neanderthal-mens" (Boekerij Baarn NL1977).

What is/was the function of the philtrum, a typically human trait?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philtrum
...
The philtrum (Latin: philtrum from Ancient Greek φίλτρον phíltron, lit. "love
charm"[2]), or medial cleft, is a vertical indentation in the middle area
of the
upper lip, common to many mammals, extending in humans from the nasal
septum to the tubercle of the upper lip.
...
In most mammals, the philtrum is a narrow groove that may carry dissolved odorants from the rhinarium or nose pad to the vomeronasal organ via ducts inside the mouth.

For humans and most primates, the philtrum survives only as a vestigial
medial
depression between the nose and upper lip.

The human philtrum, bordered by ridges, also is known as the infranasal depression, but has no apparent function. That may be because most higher primates rely more on vision than on smell.[4] Strepsirrhine primates,
such as
lemurs, still retain the philtrum and the rhinarium, unlike monkeys and apes. ...

Our philtrum fits nicely to the columella:
when you place 2 fingers under your upper lip and try to inhale, your upper lip blocks your nostrils:

Why would that be needed? Many animals, including humans and puppies, can
dive without
such ridiculous nonsense.

IOW, prognathic H.erectus could perfectly close his nostrils.

Zero evidence erectus needed a philtrum to cover nostrils.

No doubt to run after kudus... :-DDD

No snorkel noses needed. :-DDDDDDDD

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No snorkel noses needed. :-DDDDDDDD

Indeed:

OI, BIG NOSE !
New Scientist 2782 p 69 Lastword 16 October 2010

Why do humans evolve external noses that don’t seem to serve any useful purpose – our smelling sensors are inside the head. Our nose is vulnerable to damage, and the majority of primates and other mammals manage with relatively flat faces.
Traditional explanations are that the nose protects against dry air, hot air, cold air, dusty air, whatever air, but most savannah mammals have no external noses, and polar animals such as arctic foxes or hares tend to evolve shorter extremities
including flatter noses (Allen’s Rule), not larger as the Neanderthal protruding nose.

The answer isn’t so difficult if we simply consider humans like other mammals.

An external nose is seen in elephant seals, hooded seals, tapirs, elephants, swine and, among primates, in the mangrove-dwelling proboscis monkeys. Various, often mutually compatible functions, have been proposed, such as sexual display (in male hooded
and elephant seals or proboscis monkeys), manipulation of food (in elephants, tapirs and swine), a snorkel (elephants, proboscis monkeys) and as a nose-closing aid during diving (in most of these animals). These mammals spend a lot of time at the margins
of land and water. Possible functions of an external nose in creatures evolving into aquatic ones are obvious and match those listed above in many cases. They can initially act as a nose closure, a snorkel, to keep water out, to dig in wet soil for food,
and so on. Afterwards, these external noses can also become co-opted for other functions, such as sexual display (visual as well as auditory) in hooded and elephant seals and proboscis monkeys.

But what does this have to do with human evolution?

The earliest known Homo fossils outside Africa – such as those at Mojokerto in Java and Dmanisi in Georgia – are about 1.8 million years old. The easiest way for them to have spread to other continents, and to islands such as Java, is along the
coasts, and from there inland along rivers. During the glacial periods of the Pleistocene – the ice age cycles that ran from about 1.8 million to 12,000 years ago – most coasts were about 100 metres below the present-day sea level, so we don’t know
whether or when Homo populations lived there. But coasts and riversides are full of shellfish and other foods that are easily collected and digested by smart, handy and tool-using “apes”, and are rich in potential brain-boosting nutrients such as
docosahexaenoic acid (DHA).

If Pleistocene Homo spread along the coasts, beachcombing, wading and diving for seafoods as Polynesian islanders still do, this could explain why Homo erectus evolved larger brains (aided by DHA) and larger noses (because of their part-time diving).
This littoral intermezzo could help to explain not only why we like to have our holidays at tropical beaches, eating shrimps and coconuts, but also why we became fat and furless bipeds with long legs, flat feet, large brains and big noses.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philtrum

The philtrum (Latin: philtrum from Ancient Greek φίλτρον phíltron, lit. "love charm"), or
medial cleft, is a vertical indentation in the middle area of the upper
lip, common to many
mammals, extending in humans from the nasal septum to the tubercle of the
upper lip.
Together with a glandular rhinarium and slit-like nostrils, it is believed
to constitute the primitive condition for at least therian mammals."

In most mammals, the philtrum is a narrow groove that may carry dissolved odorants from
the rhinarium or nose pad to the vomeronasal organ via ducts inside the mouth.

For humans and most primates, the philtrum survives only as a vestigial
medial depression
between the nose and upper lip.

The human philtrum, bordered by ridges, also is known as the infranasal depression, but
has no apparent function. That may be because most higher primates rely
more on vision
than on smell.[4] Strepsirrhine primates, such as lemurs, still retain the philtrum and the
rhinarium, unlike monkeys and apes.


https://advetresearch.com/index.php/AVR/article/view/487/432

The philtrum is a median groove in the upper lip of domestic animals
(Nickelet al.,1979). It usually found in animals that possessed a
rhinarium or a nasalplane (NP) such as carnivores and small ruminants
(Nickelet al., 1979; Evans and Christensen, 1979). The nasal plane is a
wet glabrous skin area, which covers the medial wings of the nostrils
(Nickelet al., 1979). The philtrum in such species is deep and sometimes extends to the nostrils. On the other hand, it’s shallow or absent in
animals that lack NP, a sequine (Nickelet al., 1979). This anatomical association is also indicating functional correlations between the
philtrum and the NP (Hillenius and Rehorek, 2005). The philtrum proposed
to drain the odoront molecules that dissolved in the fluid covering the NP
to reach the incisive papillae and then into the nasopalatine ducts (Wöhrmann-Repenning and Bergmann, 2001). While the nasopalatine ducts or incisive ducts are the oro-nasal passage of the vomeronasal duct system
(VNO), the philtrum thereby is considered the communication canal between
the NP and the VNO (Hillenius and Rehorek, 2005; Eshrah, 2019).

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littor...@gmail.com wrote:

No snorkel noses needed. :-DDDDDDDD

Indeed:

Glad you agree.

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Some kudu runner:

No snorkel noses needed. :-DDDDDDDD

Indeed:

Glad you agree.

Yes:

OI, BIG NOSE !
New Scientist 2782 p 69 Lastword 16 October 2010

Why do humans evolve external noses that don’t seem to serve any useful purpose – our smelling sensors are inside the head. Our nose is vulnerable to damage, and the majority of primates and other mammals manage with relatively flat faces.
Traditional explanations are that the nose protects against dry air, hot air, cold air, dusty air, whatever air, but most savannah mammals have no external noses, and polar animals such as arctic foxes or hares tend to evolve shorter extremities
including flatter noses (Allen’s Rule), not larger as the Neanderthal protruding nose.
The answer isn’t so difficult if we simply consider humans like other mammals.
An external nose is seen in elephant seals, hooded seals, tapirs, elephants, swine and, among primates, in the mangrove-dwelling proboscis monkeys. Various, often mutually compatible functions, have been proposed, such as sexual display (in male hooded
and elephant seals or proboscis monkeys), manipulation of food (in elephants, tapirs and swine), a snorkel (elephants, proboscis monkeys) and as a nose-closing aid during diving (in most of these animals). These mammals spend a lot of time at the margins
of land and water. Possible functions of an external nose in creatures evolving into aquatic ones are obvious and match those listed above in many cases. They can initially act as a nose closure, a snorkel, to keep water out, to dig in wet soil for food,
and so on. Afterwards, these external noses can also become co-opted for other functions, such as sexual display (visual as well as auditory) in hooded and elephant seals and proboscis monkeys.
But what does this have to do with human evolution?
The earliest known Homo fossils outside Africa – such as those at Mojokerto in Java and Dmanisi in Georgia – are about 1.8 million years old. The easiest way for them to have spread to other continents, and to islands such as Java, is along the
coasts, and from there inland along rivers. During the glacial periods of the Pleistocene – the ice age cycles that ran from about 1.8 million to 12,000 years ago – most coasts were about 100 metres below the present-day sea level, so we don’t know
whether or when Homo populations lived there. But coasts and riversides are full of shellfish and other foods that are easily collected and digested by smart, handy and tool-using “apes”, and are rich in potential brain-boosting nutrients such as
docosahexaenoic acid (DHA).
If Pleistocene Homo spread along the coasts, beachcombing, wading and diving for seafoods as Polynesian islanders still do, this could explain why Homo erectus evolved larger brains (aided by DHA) and larger noses (because of their part-time diving).
This littoral intermezzo could help to explain not only why we like to have our holidays at tropical beaches, eating shrimps and coconuts, but also why we became fat and furless bipeds with long legs, flat feet, large brains and big noses.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

littor...@gmail.com wrote:

Some kudu runner:

No snorkel noses needed. :-DDDDDDDD

Indeed:

Glad you agree.

Yes:

Snorkel nose just so story snipped.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Op maandag 4 oktober 2021 om 06:40:47 UTC+2 schreef Primum Sapienti:

Snorkel nose just so story snipped.

Yes:

OI, BIG NOSE !
New Scientist 2782 p 69 Lastword 16 October 2010

Why do humans evolve external noses that don’t seem to serve any useful purpose – our smelling sensors are inside the head. Our nose is vulnerable to damage, and the majority of primates and other mammals manage with relatively flat faces.
Traditional explanations are that the nose protects against dry air, hot air, cold air, dusty air, whatever air, but most savannah mammals have no external noses, and polar animals such as arctic foxes or hares tend to evolve shorter extremities
including flatter noses (Allen’s Rule), not larger as the Neanderthal protruding nose.

The answer isn’t so difficult if we simply consider humans like other mammals.

An external nose is seen in elephant seals, hooded seals, tapirs, elephants, swine and, among primates, in the mangrove-dwelling proboscis monkeys. Various, often mutually compatible functions, have been proposed, such as sexual display (in male hooded
and elephant seals or proboscis monkeys), manipulation of food (in elephants, tapirs and swine), a snorkel (elephants, proboscis monkeys) and as a nose-closing aid during diving (in most of these animals). These mammals spend a lot of time at the margins
of land and water. Possible functions of an external nose in creatures evolving into aquatic ones are obvious and match those listed above in many cases. They can initially act as a nose closure, a snorkel, to keep water out, to dig in wet soil for food,
and so on. Afterwards, these external noses can also become co-opted for other functions, such as sexual display (visual as well as auditory) in hooded and elephant seals and proboscis monkeys.

But what does this have to do with human evolution?

The earliest known Homo fossils outside Africa – such as those at Mojokerto in Java and Dmanisi in Georgia – are about 1.8 million years old. The easiest way for them to have spread to other continents, and to islands such as Java, is along the
coasts, and from there inland along rivers. During the glacial periods of the Pleistocene – the ice age cycles that ran from about 1.8 million to 12,000 years ago – most coasts were about 100 metres below the present-day sea level, so we don’t know
whether or when Homo populations lived there. But coasts and riversides are full of shellfish and other foods that are easily collected and digested by smart, handy and tool-using “apes”, and are rich in potential brain-boosting nutrients such as
docosahexaenoic acid (DHA).

If Pleistocene Homo spread along the coasts, beachcombing, wading and diving for seafoods as Polynesian islanders still do, this could explain why Homo erectus evolved larger brains (aided by DHA) and larger noses (because of their part-time diving).
This littoral intermezzo could help to explain not only why we like to have our holidays at tropical beaches, eating shrimps and coconuts, but also why we became fat and furless bipeds with long legs, flat feet, large brains and big noses.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

littor...@gmail.com wrote:

Op maandag 4 oktober 2021 om 06:40:47 UTC+2 schreef Primum Sapienti:

Snorkel nose just so story snipped.

OI, no short limbs!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Op zaterdag 23 oktober 2021 om 06:25:05 UTC+2 schreef Primum Sapienti:

Snorkel nose just so story snipped.

No problem :-)

OI, BIG NOSE !
New Scientist 2782 p 69 Lastword 16 October 2010

Why do humans evolve external noses that don’t seem to serve any useful purpose – our smelling sensors are inside the head. Our nose is vulnerable to damage, and the majority of primates and other mammals manage with relatively flat faces.
Traditional explanations are that the nose protects against dry air, hot air, cold air, dusty air, whatever air, but most savannah mammals have no external noses, and polar animals such as arctic foxes or hares tend to evolve shorter extremities
including flatter noses (Allen’s Rule), not larger as the Neanderthal protruding nose.

The answer isn’t so difficult if we simply consider humans like other mammals.

An external nose is seen in elephant seals, hooded seals, tapirs, elephants, swine and, among primates, in the mangrove-dwelling proboscis monkeys. Various, often mutually compatible functions, have been proposed, such as sexual display (in male hooded
and elephant seals or proboscis monkeys), manipulation of food (in elephants, tapirs and swine), a snorkel (elephants, proboscis monkeys) and as a nose-closing aid during diving (in most of these animals). These mammals spend a lot of time at the margins
of land and water. Possible functions of an external nose in creatures evolving into aquatic ones are obvious and match those listed above in many cases. They can initially act as a nose closure, a snorkel, to keep water out, to dig in wet soil for food,
and so on. Afterwards, these external noses can also become co-opted for other functions, such as sexual display (visual as well as auditory) in hooded and elephant seals and proboscis monkeys.

But what does this have to do with human evolution?

The earliest known Homo fossils outside Africa – such as those at Mojokerto in Java and Dmanisi in Georgia – are about 1.8 million years old. The easiest way for them to have spread to other continents, and to islands such as Java, is along the
coasts, and from there inland along rivers. During the glacial periods of the Pleistocene – the ice age cycles that ran from about 1.8 million to 12,000 years ago – most coasts were about 100 metres below the present-day sea level, so we don’t know
whether or when Homo populations lived there. But coasts and riversides are full of shellfish and other foods that are easily collected and digested by smart, handy and tool-using “apes”, and are rich in potential brain-boosting nutrients such as
docosahexaenoic acid (DHA).

If Pleistocene Homo spread along the coasts, beachcombing, wading and diving for seafoods as Polynesian islanders still do, this could explain why Homo erectus evolved larger brains (aided by DHA) and larger noses (because of their part-time diving).
This littoral intermezzo could help to explain not only why we like to have our holidays at tropical beaches, eating shrimps and coconuts, but also why we became fat and furless bipeds with long legs, flat feet, large brains and big noses.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

littor...@gmail.com wrote:

Op zaterdag 23 oktober 2021 om 06:25:05 UTC+2 schreef Primum Sapienti:

Snorkel nose just so story snipped.

No problem :-)

OI, BIG NOSE !

You just admitted that is a just so story.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)