Expanded Explorations of the Dinaledi Subsystem, Rising Star Cave
System, South Africa.

Abstract

The Dinaledi Chamber of the Rising Star cave system has yielded a
large assemblage of fossil hominin material, attributed to Homo
naledi. The unusual taphonomic and geological situation of the
assemblage suggested that the remains may have been deliberately
deposited in the chamber. However, the route and mechanism of
deposition of the remains within the Dinaledi Chamber are still
uncertain. During the 2017�2018 field seasons, we expanded
explorations of the passages surrounding the Dinaledi Chamber. These explorations improved our understanding of the cave�s spatial
complexity, necessitating a revision of the way the spaces are named
and described. The work supported the hypothesis that there is no
alternate entrance into the system other than the Chute. The work also identified new fossil deposits in several remote passages, three of
which contain material attributable to H. naledi. Here, we clarify the definition of the Dinaledi Subsystem and provide terminology for new
fossil localities found in this portion of the Rising Star cave
system. These results emphasize the complex depositional environment
of the Dinaledi Subsystem and raise new questions about the process
and timing of the fossil accumulations.

Open access:
https://paleoanthropology.org/ojs/index.php/paleo/article/view/68

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Pandora wrote:

The Dinaledi Chamber of the Rising Star cave system has yielded a
large assemblage of fossil hominin material, attributed to Homo
naledi. The unusual taphonomic and geological situation of the
assemblage suggested that the remains may have been deliberately
deposited in the chamber.

Why? What is the evidence for this?

I've never seen anything to support such a claim. I've been hearing it beginning with the very first articles but I've never seen this claim
worked out.

I look but, I don't see any reason to assume that these are intentional burials. My immediate impression was that animals pushed deeper
and deeper into the blackness, chasing cooler, damper air in the
hopes of finding a water source during a drought, only to be trapped
in a pitch black hole in the ground without food and water.

That seemed like the most plausible explanation to me... the most
obvious. But even that is assuming that what they report as facts
bears some resemblance to reality, and quite frankly there is no
reason to assume that.

Remember when they "Reported" that it was over 2 million years
old, which turned out to be utterly baseless?

It was literally a circular argument. A classic example of circular
reasoning. They assumed it was a human ancestor, and as such
the invented a date where they might plausibly fit it on the timeline,
given it's morphology, so their CONCLUSION -- "human ancestor" --
resulted in the dating that supported the conclusion.

And what photographic/video evidence that exists shows them
mishandling the finds, contaminating them rather aggressively.

Bare hands, uncovered hair & faces... so much for DNA, right?

And what about the modern brain, or the brain with "Modern
Features" which doesn't seem to have actually existed. No, one
endocast came out with some lines that seemed to match some
lines on the modern human brain. One endocast. Just one. And
that was perverted into this human ancestor with a modern
brain that buried it's dead, and lived over 2 million years ago.

I mean, for all I know it really is over 2 million years old, and it's
the recent dating that's the bullshit. I mean, when you know
someone is a liar then THAT'S what you know. You can't cherry
pick what you want to believe and what you want to dismiss.

None of what they say is trustworthy.

But all of it is in line with the Out-of-Africa purity bullshit, the
social program some elitist twat came up with because THEY
are racist to the core, and everything they see validates their
racism so obviously if anyone else sees it they'll be racist too.

...never mind the fact that racism is alive & well already,
and has been for millennia and there's precisely ZERO chance
that actual science, instead of the social program, is going to
make it any worse...






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https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/30289826006

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Expanded Explorations of the Dinaledi Subsystem, Rising Star Cave
System, South Africa. https://paleoanthropology.org/ojs/index.php/paleo/article/view/68
The Dinaledi Chamber of the Rising Star cave system has yielded a
large assemblage of fossil hominin material, attributed to Homo
naledi.

Anthropocentric nonsense:
Pan or Australopithecus naledi.
Google "pan naledi verhaegen".

The unusual taphonomic and geological situation of the
assemblage suggested that the remains may have been deliberately
deposited ...

:-DDD

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On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 03:33:25 -0700 (PDT), "littor...@gmail.com" <littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:

Expanded Explorations of the Dinaledi Subsystem, Rising Star Cave
System, South Africa.
https://paleoanthropology.org/ojs/index.php/paleo/article/view/68
The Dinaledi Chamber of the Rising Star cave system has yielded a
large assemblage of fossil hominin material, attributed to Homo
naledi.

Anthropocentric nonsense:
Pan or Australopithecus naledi.
Google "pan naledi verhaegen".

In the only phylogenetic analysis so far that includes naledi (Dembo
et al. 2016), it is deeply nested within Homo: https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0047248416300100-gr2.jpg

The unusual taphonomic and geological situation of the
assemblage suggested that the remains may have been deliberately
deposited ...

:-DDD

You think it was teleportation?

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littor...@gmail.com wrote:

Expanded Explorations of the Dinaledi Subsystem, Rising Star Cave
System, South Africa.
https://paleoanthropology.org/ojs/index.php/paleo/article/view/68
The Dinaledi Chamber of the Rising Star cave system has yielded a
large assemblage of fossil hominin material, attributed to Homo
naledi.

Anthropocentric nonsense:

You've examined the bones?

Pan or Australopithecus naledi.
Google "pan naledi verhaegen".

The unusual taphonomic and geological situation of the
assemblage suggested that the remains may have been deliberately
deposited ...

https://elifesciences.org/articles/09561

"With the exception of six avian bones and isolated non-diagnostic rodent elements, all identifiable, macro-skeletal specimens recovered to date from
the Dinaledi Chamber are clearly hominin..."

"The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been
exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its
depositional history. "

"None of the bone fragments studied preserve evidence of bleaching,
cortical exfoliation, delamination or deep patination, indicating that the bones were not affected by solar radiation (Lyman and Fox, 1989, 1997);
that is, no bone fragment was exposed to weathering on surface outside
the cave, which is consistent with sedimentation patterns observed in the chamber."

"The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for sedimentation processes that involved significant water action able to transport coarse-grained material including bone fragments."

"No evidence is noted of vertebrate modifications such as those caused by carnivores, rodents or other hominins. The specimens were assessed for
evidence of edge polish from repeated gnawing, tooth pits or punctures perpendicular to the surface of the bone, tooth scores, striations and/or furrows (V or U-shaped in cross section), and traces of gastric corrosion (Haynes, 1983; de Ruiter and Berger, 2000; Pickering et al., 2004; Pokines
and Symes, 2013; Supplementary file 2). There is no evidence of stone tool inflicted cuts, scrapes, impact or chop marks (White, 2014). Tooth scores
and pits, crenulated edges and splintered shafts associated with carnivore damage (Kuhn, 2011) are absent. None of the specimens are burnt (Stiner
et al., 1995) or shows signs of trampling other than limited incidental
recent
breakage by cavers that is readily evident (Behrensmeyer et al., 1986)."

"Overall, weathering patterns of the bone surfaces are consistent with the effects of sub-aerial and sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark depositional environment that experienced stable temperatures."

"Limited weathering (physical and chemical) indicative of sub-aerial, sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark environment (Figure 10) indicate that the bones were never exposed to the earth's surface and elements (the sun and rain) outside the cave (Lyman
and Fox, 1989; Backwell et al., 2012; Junod and Pokines, 2013)."

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Pandora wrote:

On Sat, 6 Nov 2021 03:33:25 -0700 (PDT), "littor...@gmail.com" <littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:

Expanded Explorations of the Dinaledi Subsystem, Rising Star Cave
System, South Africa.
https://paleoanthropology.org/ojs/index.php/paleo/article/view/68
The Dinaledi Chamber of the Rising Star cave system has yielded a
large assemblage of fossil hominin material, attributed to Homo
naledi.

Anthropocentric nonsense:
Pan or Australopithecus naledi.
Google "pan naledi verhaegen".

In the only phylogenetic analysis so far that includes naledi (Dembo
et al. 2016), it is deeply nested within Homo: https://ars.els-cdn.com/content/image/1-s2.0-S0047248416300100-gr2.jpg

The unusual taphonomic and geological situation of the
assemblage suggested that the remains may have been deliberately
deposited ...

:-DDD

You think it was teleportation?

https://elifesciences.org/articles/09561

"With the exception of six avian bones and isolated non-diagnostic rodent elements, all identifiable, macro-skeletal specimens recovered to date from
the Dinaledi Chamber are clearly hominin..."

"The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been
exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its
depositional history. "

"None of the bone fragments studied preserve evidence of bleaching,
cortical exfoliation, delamination or deep patination, indicating that the bones were not affected by solar radiation (Lyman and Fox, 1989, 1997);
that is, no bone fragment was exposed to weathering on surface outside
the cave, which is consistent with sedimentation patterns observed in the chamber."

"The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for sedimentation processes that involved significant water action able to transport coarse-grained material including bone fragments."

"No evidence is noted of vertebrate modifications such as those caused by carnivores, rodents or other hominins. The specimens were assessed for
evidence of edge polish from repeated gnawing, tooth pits or punctures perpendicular to the surface of the bone, tooth scores, striations and/or furrows (V or U-shaped in cross section), and traces of gastric corrosion (Haynes, 1983; de Ruiter and Berger, 2000; Pickering et al., 2004; Pokines
and Symes, 2013; Supplementary file 2). There is no evidence of stone tool inflicted cuts, scrapes, impact or chop marks (White, 2014). Tooth scores
and pits, crenulated edges and splintered shafts associated with carnivore damage (Kuhn, 2011) are absent. None of the specimens are burnt (Stiner
et al., 1995) or shows signs of trampling other than limited incidental
recent
breakage by cavers that is readily evident (Behrensmeyer et al., 1986)."

"Overall, weathering patterns of the bone surfaces are consistent with the effects of sub-aerial and sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark depositional environment that experienced stable temperatures."

"Limited weathering (physical and chemical) indicative of sub-aerial, sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark environment (Figure 10) indicate that the bones were never exposed to the earth's surface and elements (the sun and rain) outside the cave (Lyman
and Fox, 1989; Backwell et al., 2012; Junod and Pokines, 2013)."

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Primum Sapienti wrote:

"The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its depositional history.

[blah, blah, blah-blah, blah]

All of this is quite consistent with animals drawn in by the cool, damp air
in search of a water source, like during a draught, only to be trapped in
the darkness & die.

It's an excellent argument AGAINST intentional burial, as the animals depositing the dead deep within the pitch black depths of the cave
would then have to find their way out...

Just look at their call for team members! They advertised for small
people with climbing experience. And that's now, in the modern word,
when we have lights, night vision, ropes., cameras and communications.

What did Naledi have?

It's like a giant lobster trap: They went in, they got stuck. They couldn't find their way back out.

Nothing is consistent with burial.





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https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/667178430374215680

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On Monday 8 November 2021 at 07:52:43 UTC, I Envy JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

"The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface >> structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been
exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its
depositional history.

[blah, blah, blah-blah, blah]

All of this is quite consistent with animals drawn in by the cool, damp air in search of a water source, like during a draught, only to be trapped in
the darkness & die.

It's an excellent argument AGAINST intentional burial, as the animals depositing the dead deep within the pitch black depths of the cave
would then have to find their way out...

I've never done anything like that, but
I presume that if you had a long rope (or
even a thin cord) which you laid out as
a trail, you could follow it back IN THE
DARK to the entrance. They'd have had
torches but, on occasion (or even fairly
often), they'd all have gone out and re-
lighting them in such damp conitions
was probably impossible. Also, they
would have operated in teams, and
'rescuers' with torches would, after
some agreed interval, have sought
out members who had not returned
on time.

The operation of transporting a body
to that remote chamber would probably
have needed multiple trips, so a semi-
permanent rope guide might have been
installed..

Just look at their call for team members! They advertised for small
people with climbing experience. And that's now, in the modern word,
when we have lights, night vision, ropes., cameras and communications.

What did Naledi have?

Torches, rope, small size, a life-time's
practice and a cultural inheritance.

It's like a giant lobster trap: They went in, they got stuck. They couldn't find their way back out.

Nothing is consistent with burial.

Except the use of special far-distant
chambers for multiple bodies.

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Paul Crowley wrote:

I've never done anything like that, but
I presume that if you had a long rope (or
even a thin cord) which you laid out as
a trail, you could follow it back IN THE
DARK to the entrance. They'd have had
torches but, on occasion (or even fairly
often), they'd all have gone out and re-
lighting them in such damp conitions
was probably impossible. Also, they
would have operated in teams, and
'rescuers' with torches would, after
some agreed interval, have sought
out members who had not returned
on time.

Their brain size overlapped Chimpanzees. They certainly had no larger
brains than habilis, if even that large.

There are claims, but between the atrocious accuracy of the information
fed to us and the claim that their larger brains being based on a single example, don't bank on anything.

So there's ZERO evidence for fire use, ZERO evidence for rope, the screaming obvious fact that they're already claiming that these were adapted to the
trees in a way that Chimps are today, which makes ropes redundant...

Google Occam's Razor.

Either you build a tower of suppositions so high it teeters towards collapse, or you conclude that they are as primitive as they look and weren't intentionally burying their dead.

The operation of transporting a body
to that remote chamber would probably
have needed multiple trips, so a semi-
permanent rope guide might have been
installed..

Or they were every bit as primitive as they look and just got trapped deep inside a cave searching out a water source.

Torches, rope, small size, a life-time's
practice and a cultural inheritance.

So a massive dung heap of baseless suppositions.

Nothing is consistent with burial.

Except the use of special far-distant
chambers for multiple bodies.

That's circular. You conclude that they were intentionally laying their
dead to rest and then claim that the fact that they laid their dead to
rest is evidence for their doing so.





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I Envy JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

"The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface >> structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been
exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its
depositional history.

[blah, blah, blah-blah, blah]

All of this is quite consistent with animals drawn in by the cool, damp air in search of a water source, like during a draught, only to be trapped in
the darkness & die.

Cite previous examples for this hypothesis ->

It's an excellent argument AGAINST intentional burial, as the animals depositing the dead deep within the pitch black depths of the cave
would then have to find their way out...

Just look at their call for team members! They advertised for small
people with climbing experience. And that's now, in the modern word,
when we have lights, night vision, ropes., cameras and communications.

What did Naledi have?

It's like a giant lobster trap: They went in, they got stuck. They couldn't find their way back out.

Nothing is consistent with burial.

https://elifesciences.org/articles/09561

"With the exception of six avian bones and isolated non-diagnostic rodent elements, all identifiable, macro-skeletal specimens recovered to date from
the Dinaledi Chamber are clearly hominin..."

"The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been
exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its
depositional history. "

"None of the bone fragments studied preserve evidence of bleaching,
cortical exfoliation, delamination or deep patination, indicating that the bones were not affected by solar radiation (Lyman and Fox, 1989, 1997);
that is, no bone fragment was exposed to weathering on surface outside
the cave, which is consistent with sedimentation patterns observed in the chamber."

"The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for sedimentation processes that involved significant water action able to transport coarse-grained material including bone fragments."

"No evidence is noted of vertebrate modifications such as those caused by carnivores, rodents or other hominins. The specimens were assessed for
evidence of edge polish from repeated gnawing, tooth pits or punctures perpendicular to the surface of the bone, tooth scores, striations and/or furrows (V or U-shaped in cross section), and traces of gastric corrosion (Haynes, 1983; de Ruiter and Berger, 2000; Pickering et al., 2004; Pokines
and Symes, 2013; Supplementary file 2). There is no evidence of stone tool inflicted cuts, scrapes, impact or chop marks (White, 2014). Tooth scores
and pits, crenulated edges and splintered shafts associated with carnivore damage (Kuhn, 2011) are absent. None of the specimens are burnt (Stiner
et al., 1995) or shows signs of trampling other than limited incidental recent breakage by cavers that is readily evident (Behrensmeyer et al., 1986)."

"Overall, weathering patterns of the bone surfaces are consistent with the effects of sub-aerial and sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark depositional environment that experienced stable temperatures."

"Limited weathering (physical and chemical) indicative of sub-aerial, sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark environment (Figure 10) indicate that the bones were never exposed to the earth's surface and elements (the sun and rain) outside the cave (Lyman
and Fox, 1989; Backwell et al., 2012; Junod and Pokines, 2013)."

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Primum Sapienti wrote:

All of this is quite consistent with animals drawn in by the cool, damp air in search of a water source, like during a draught, only to be trapped in the darkness & die.

Cite previous examples for this hypothesis ->

Why? Are you honestly unable to think for yourself? If you don't have some priest tell you that God approves of an idea then you can't think it?

Impure thoughts?

And is Google broken?

Name one single source that talks about prepared burials in Africa more
than 200,000 years ago.

There are none. The owners of Naledi(tm) invented the notion.

"The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its depositional history. "

And you mistakenly believe this to mean... what?

"Limited weathering (physical and chemical) indicative of sub-aerial, sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark environment (Figure 10) indicate that the bones were never exposed to the earth's surface and elements (the sun and rain) outside the cave (Lyman
and Fox, 1989; Backwell et al., 2012; Junod and Pokines, 2013)."

So they died in the cave, not on the surface. That's all your cite is saying. You
don't understand it. Clearly. But it's not saying anything to support intentional
burial. It's just saying that the bones didn't wash in from the surface, or fall in.
It's even implying that the animals weren't the victim of predators.

But it's not saying that they were buried.

As a matter of fact, given the number of animals represented... Wiki says 15. Smithsonian says that too. OVER 100,000 YEARS! But lets call it 150 individuals.
Let's call it 300. Heck, let's call it 500 individuals:

One died and was buried every 200 years?

Let's make it 1,000 individuals "Buried" in the cave: So one single member of the
population died every century, and was buried in the cave.

It's stupid. It's a glaringly obvious STUPID claim.





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Naledi simply died where it lived,
google "naledi verhaegen PPT"

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littor...@gmail.com wrote:

Naledi simply died where it lived

Considering the length of time represented here -- they're claiming
that the remains are spanning maybe 100,000 years -- there just
aren't enough of them for that. Which is why I favor the "Drawn in
by cool, moist air in search of a water source."

This cave was a giant roach motel where Naledi went in but they
didn't come out.




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https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/668269425555898368

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Op zaterdag 20 november 2021 om 03:57:28 UTC+1 schreef I Envy JTEM:

Naledi simply died where it lived

Considering the length of time represented here -- they're claiming
that the remains are spanning maybe 100,000 years -- there just
aren't enough of them for that. Which is why I favor the "Drawn in
by cool, moist air in search of a water source."
This cave was a giant roach motel where Naledi went in but they
didn't come out.

No, the cave didn't exist when they lived,
google "naledi PPT verhaegen"

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littor...@gmail.com wrote:

The Royal JTEM said:

Considering the length of time represented here -- they're claiming
that the remains are spanning maybe 100,000 years -- there just
aren't enough of them for that. Which is why I favor the "Drawn in
by cool, moist air in search of a water source."
This cave was a giant roach motel where Naledi went in but they
didn't come out.

No, the cave didn't exist when they lived,
google "naledi PPT verhaegen"

I know Wiki isn't exactly the most trustworthy citation but the traditional
30 second Google search found a Wiki article on the cave claiming it to
be no more than 3 million years old... roughly 10x the age of Naledi.

Other cites said that the entrance hasn't changed much if at all since the fossils were deposited.

Either way, it seems that there isn't a great case to be made for the cave having formed only after Naledi died there.

This strongly implies, in my mind, the Roach Motel model, as opposed to
a burial chamber or even just residents dying.

If it was just them dying where they lived, there should be many times
more. Even at a population of say, say, 10 members, given a life as long
as 30 years we should be seeing more than 10x as many fossils, given
the age range they attribute to the finds.

The Roach Motel model does fit the evidence though. We would expect
only a fraction of their number to get stuck deep inside the cave, and
only rarely though perhaps at something of a pattern where the most were
lost during droughts/unusually hot periods...









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https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/668269425555898368

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littor...@gmail.com wrote:

Naledi simply died where it lived,
google "naledi verhaegen PPT"

Google taxonomy. Place of death does not correlate 100% with lifestyle. Otherwise,
any creature that drowned would be aquatic in aa land.

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I Envy JTEM wrote:

littor...@gmail.com wrote:

Naledi simply died where it lived

Considering the length of time represented here -- they're claiming
that the remains are spanning maybe 100,000 years -- there just
aren't enough of them for that. Which is why I favor the "Drawn in
by cool, moist air in search of a water source."

Water?

https://elifesciences.org/articles/09561

"The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for sedimentation processes that involved significant water action able to transport coarse-grained material including bone fragments."

This cave was a giant roach motel where Naledi went in but they
didn't come out.

Why didn't they turn around in the chamber?

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Primum Sapienti wrote:

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Considering the length of time represented here -- they're claiming
that the remains are spanning maybe 100,000 years -- there just
aren't enough of them for that. Which is why I favor the "Drawn in
by cool, moist air in search of a water source."

Water?

Yes. There's a drought on, the animals are suffering from great thirst
and they are drawn deep into the cave by the cool, moist air in search
of water.

"The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for sedimentation processes that involved significant water action

Tell me, WHERE THE FUCK do you find anything in my words suggesting
that they found their water, or found anything but a slow death within the bowels of the cave?

Jeeze! Get some frigging reading comprehension...






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littor...@gmail.com wrote:

Op zaterdag 20 november 2021 om 03:57:28 UTC+1 schreef I Envy JTEM:

Naledi simply died where it lived

Considering the length of time represented here -- they're claiming
that the remains are spanning maybe 100,000 years -- there just
aren't enough of them for that. Which is why I favor the "Drawn in
by cool, moist air in search of a water source."
This cave was a giant roach motel where Naledi went in but they
didn't come out.

No, the cave didn't exist when they lived,

Yes, it did. Otherwise, the fossils would show signs of being worked on by
the elements,
animals, etc

https://elifesciences.org/articles/09561

"None of the bone fragments studied preserve evidence of bleaching,
cortical exfoliation, delamination or deep patination, indicating that the bones were not affected by solar radiation (Lyman and Fox, 1989, 1997);
that is, no bone fragment was exposed to weathering on surface outside
the cave, which is consistent with sedimentation patterns observed in the chamber."

"Limited weathering (physical and chemical) indicative of sub-aerial, sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark environment (Figure 10) indicate that the bones were never exposed to the earth's surface and elements (the sun and rain) outside the cave (Lyman
and Fox, 1989; Backwell et al., 2012; Junod and Pokines, 2013)."

Read also the section "The Rising Star cave system" as well as
"Sedimentology" under the results.

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Op maandag 29 november 2021 om 07:36:37 UTC+1 schreef Primum Sapienti:

Naledi simply died where it lived,
google "naledi verhaegen PPT"

Google taxonomy. Place of death does not correlate 100% with lifestyle. Otherwise,
any creature that drowned would be aquatic in aa land.

1) Naledi has 0 to do with "aa land" (aq.ape?).
Probably the same fools who believe their ancestors ran after antelopes also believe Naledi was Homo.
Most likely, naledi was Pan naledi, fossil subgenus Australopithecus,
google "ape human evolution made easy PPT verhaegen".

2) Naledi was probably aquarboreal: bipedally wading & vertically climbing in swamp forests.
They didn't drown, but when they died they fell into the mud -> mudstone -> fossilisation,
google "naledi verhaegen PPT".

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Considering the length of time represented here -- they're claiming
that the remains are spanning maybe 100,000 years -- there just
aren't enough of them for that. Which is why I favor the "Drawn in
by cool, moist air in search of a water source."

Water?

Yes. There's a drought on, the animals are suffering from great thirst
and they are drawn deep into the cave by the cool, moist air in search
of water.

Moist? See the next paragraph...

"The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for
sedimentation processes that involved significant water action

Tell me, WHERE THE FUCK do you find anything in my words suggesting
that they found their water, or found anything but a slow death within the bowels of the cave?

Jeeze! Get some frigging reading comprehension...

Tell me, with no evidence of water, why go in?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

littor...@gmail.com wrote:

Op maandag 29 november 2021 om 07:36:37 UTC+1 schreef Primum Sapienti:

Naledi simply died where it lived,
google "naledi verhaegen PPT"

Google taxonomy. Place of death does not correlate 100% with lifestyle.
Otherwise,
any creature that drowned would be aquatic in aa land.

1) Naledi has 0 to do with "aa land" (aq.ape?).
Probably the same fools who believe their ancestors ran after antelopes also believe Naledi was Homo.
Most likely, naledi was Pan naledi, fossil subgenus Australopithecus,
google "ape human evolution made easy PPT verhaegen".

2) Naledi was probably aquarboreal: bipedally wading & vertically climbing in swamp forests.
They didn't drown, but when they died they fell into the mud -> mudstone -> fossilisation,
google "naledi verhaegen PPT".

First you deny an aa component, then you say it's there. Such is the aa
just so story.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Primum Sapienti wrote:

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Yes. There's a drought on, the animals are suffering from great thirst
and they are drawn deep into the cave by the cool, moist air in search
of water.

Moist? See the next paragraph...

I did. How are you misunderstanding it? In what way, shape or form are you imagining it to contradict me?

"The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for >> sedimentation processes that involved significant water action

Again, because the emotional damage you suffered did not allow you to
register it the last time, if there had been standing water they would have drank it, instead of delving further & further into the cave before becoming trapped and slowly dying.

It's kind of a requirement, this lack of standing water...

Tell me, with no evidence of water, why go in?

Tell me, I said "cool moist air" and you're pretending I said "It was filled with
water." Why's that?




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/670452329660727296

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I Envy JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Yes. There's a drought on, the animals are suffering from great thirst
and they are drawn deep into the cave by the cool, moist air in search
of water.

Moist? See the next paragraph...

I did. How are you misunderstanding it? In what way, shape or form are you imagining it to contradict me?

Do you need it explained to you?

"The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for >>>> sedimentation processes that involved significant water action

Again, because the emotional damage you suffered did not allow you to register it the last time, if there had been standing water they would have drank it, instead of delving further & further into the cave before becoming trapped and slowly dying.

It's kind of a requirement, this lack of standing water...

Tell me, with no evidence of water, why go in?

Tell me, I said "cool moist air" and you're pretending I said "It was filled with
water." Why's that?

I quoted the paper about no water action. And if you look at a schematic
of the Rising Star
cave system

<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Cross-section_of_the_Rising_Star_Cave_system_Dinaledi_Chamber.svg/388px-Cross-section_of_the_Rising_Star_Cave_system_Dinaledi_Chamber.svg.png>

going through the narrow channels make little sense in a search for water...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Primum Sapienti wrote:

Do you need it explained to you?

You're trolling. Go back under your bridge.

Again, because the emotional damage you suffered did not allow you to register it the last time, if there had been standing water they would have drank it, instead of delving further & further into the cave before becoming
trapped and slowly dying.

It's kind of a requirement, this lack of standing water...

[...]

Tell me, I said "cool moist air" and you're pretending I said "It was filled with
water." Why's that?

I quoted the paper about no water action.

Wow and I made it clear multiple times that NOTHING I said implied water. In fact, my words EXCLUDED water! If there was water they would have drank it, instead of being drawn BY THE COOL, MOIST AIR deeper & deeper into the
cave until they were trapped & died.




-- --

https://rumble.com/register/JTEM/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I Envy JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

Do you need it explained to you?

You're trolling. Go back under your bridge.

Again, because the emotional damage you suffered did not allow you to
register it the last time, if there had been standing water they would have >>> drank it, instead of delving further & further into the cave before becoming
trapped and slowly dying.

It's kind of a requirement, this lack of standing water...

[...]

Tell me, I said "cool moist air" and you're pretending I said "It was filled with
water." Why's that?

I quoted the paper about no water action.

Wow and I made it clear multiple times that NOTHING I said implied water. In

"moist"

fact, my words EXCLUDED water! If there was water they would have drank it,

"moist"

instead of being drawn BY THE COOL, MOIST AIR deeper & deeper into the

"moist"

cave until they were trapped & died.

Here on earth, "moist" :

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/moist

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Primum Sapienti wrote:

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Wow and I made it clear multiple times that NOTHING I said implied water. In

"moist"

"Cool, moist air."

I'm literally saying "Air" and your hemorrhoid that you call a brain is claiming that
I said "Water."

Repeatedly.

A lack of reading comprehension does NOT an argument make.





-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/673133387413913600

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I Envy JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Wow and I made it clear multiple times that NOTHING I said implied water. In

"moist"

"Cool, moist air."

I'm literally saying "Air" and your hemorrhoid that you call a brain is claiming that
I said "Water."

Repeatedly.

A lack of reading comprehension does NOT an argument make.

Here on Earth "moist" has a cause... you know, water... What does "moist" imply?

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/moist

Why are you literally saying "moist"?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Primum Sapienti wrote:

Here on Earth "moist" has a cause...

Yeah. Moisture.

And like I pointed out and you still can't grasp: "Moist AIR."

"Moist" is used as an adjective. The noun is "Air."

What was I talking about? AIR. The AIR is moist.

Now move on with your life before I start to saying something mean.








-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/673305954924822528

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

Here on Earth "moist" has a cause...

Yeah. Moisture.

And like I pointed out and you still can't grasp: "Moist AIR."

"Moist" is used as an adjective. The noun is "Air."

What was I talking about? AIR. The AIR is moist.

Now move on with your life before I start to saying something mean.

And how did the air get "moist"?

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/moist



https://elifesciences.org/articles/09561

"With the exception of six avian bones and isolated non-diagnostic rodent elements, all identifiable, macro-skeletal specimens recovered to date from
the Dinaledi Chamber are clearly hominin..."

"The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been
exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its
depositional history. "

"None of the bone fragments studied preserve evidence of bleaching,
cortical exfoliation, delamination or deep patination, indicating that the bones were not affected by solar radiation (Lyman and Fox, 1989, 1997);
that is, no bone fragment was exposed to weathering on surface outside
the cave, which is consistent with sedimentation patterns observed in the chamber."

"The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for sedimentation processes that involved significant water action able to transport coarse-grained material including bone fragments."

"No evidence is noted of vertebrate modifications such as those caused by carnivores, rodents or other hominins. The specimens were assessed for
evidence of edge polish from repeated gnawing, tooth pits or punctures perpendicular to the surface of the bone, tooth scores, striations and/or furrows (V or U-shaped in cross section), and traces of gastric corrosion (Haynes, 1983; de Ruiter and Berger, 2000; Pickering et al., 2004; Pokines
and Symes, 2013; Supplementary file 2). There is no evidence of stone tool inflicted cuts, scrapes, impact or chop marks (White, 2014). Tooth scores
and pits, crenulated edges and splintered shafts associated with carnivore damage (Kuhn, 2011) are absent. None of the specimens are burnt (Stiner
et al., 1995) or shows signs of trampling other than limited incidental recent breakage by cavers that is readily evident (Behrensmeyer et al., 1986)."

"Overall, weathering patterns of the bone surfaces are consistent with the effects of sub-aerial and sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark depositional environment that experienced stable temperatures."

"Limited weathering (physical and chemical) indicative of sub-aerial, sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark environment (Figure 10) indicate that the bones were never exposed to the earth's surface and elements (the sun and rain) outside the cave (Lyman
and Fox, 1989; Backwell et al., 2012; Junod and Pokines, 2013)."

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Primum Sapienti wrote:

And how did the air get "moist"?

So, you being a blithering idiot, allow me to grant you a powerful hint, one which should leave you incredibly embarrassed:

https://elifesciences.org/articles/24231

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4559842/

Clink a link. Go up to your browser menu and select "Find." Search on the
word "Moist."

This site, on the other hand, references "humidity." I'm guessing even if you are perplexed by that word you will have no trouble finding an adult who
can explain what it means, even if you are most unlikely to understand their answer.





-- --

https://rumble.com/vr5fsv-confessions-of-an-ex-hippie.html

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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I wish, I wish, I wish, I wish I could be JTEM, Primum Sapienti wrote:

Neither "humidity" nor "moist" found in the articles.

I sometimes lose track of which article says what but, my very first search found here...

: Unit 3 deposits are spread across the cave floor as loosely packed, semi-moist, orange
: mud clasts of varying sizes in which bone material of H. naledi is distributed.

So. You really are lame. If it'll help, I'll try to act surprised.

Naledi wandered deep into the cave, drawn in by cool, moist air during a
time of drought, only to be trapped & die. It was nature's own "Roach Motel" where Naledi checked in but they didn't check out.





-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/676775721186869248

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I Envy JERM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

And how did the air get "moist"?

So, you being a blithering idiot, allow me to grant you a powerful hint, one which should leave you incredibly embarrassed:

https://elifesciences.org/articles/24231

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4559842/

Clink a link. Go up to your browser menu and select "Find." Search on the word "Moist."

This site, on the other hand, references "humidity." I'm guessing even if you are perplexed by that word you will have no trouble finding an adult who
can explain what it means, even if you are most unlikely to understand their answer.

Neither "humidity" nor "moist" found in the articles.

And how did the air get "moist"?

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/moist



https://elifesciences.org/articles/09561

"With the exception of six avian bones and isolated non-diagnostic rodent elements, all identifiable, macro-skeletal specimens recovered to date from
the Dinaledi Chamber are clearly hominin..."

"The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been
exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its
depositional history. "

"None of the bone fragments studied preserve evidence of bleaching,
cortical exfoliation, delamination or deep patination, indicating that the bones were not affected by solar radiation (Lyman and Fox, 1989, 1997);
that is, no bone fragment was exposed to weathering on surface outside
the cave, which is consistent with sedimentation patterns observed in the chamber."

"The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for sedimentation processes that involved significant water action able to transport coarse-grained material including bone fragments."

"No evidence is noted of vertebrate modifications such as those caused by carnivores, rodents or other hominins. The specimens were assessed for
evidence of edge polish from repeated gnawing, tooth pits or punctures perpendicular to the surface of the bone, tooth scores, striations and/or furrows (V or U-shaped in cross section), and traces of gastric corrosion (Haynes, 1983; de Ruiter and Berger, 2000; Pickering et al., 2004; Pokines
and Symes, 2013; Supplementary file 2). There is no evidence of stone tool inflicted cuts, scrapes, impact or chop marks (White, 2014). Tooth scores
and pits, crenulated edges and splintered shafts associated with carnivore damage (Kuhn, 2011) are absent. None of the specimens are burnt (Stiner
et al., 1995) or shows signs of trampling other than limited incidental recent breakage by cavers that is readily evident (Behrensmeyer et al., 1986)."

"Overall, weathering patterns of the bone surfaces are consistent with the effects of sub-aerial and sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark depositional environment that experienced stable temperatures."

"Limited weathering (physical and chemical) indicative of sub-aerial, sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark environment (Figure 10) indicate that the bones were never exposed to the earth's surface and elements (the sun and rain) outside the cave (Lyman
and Fox, 1989; Backwell et al., 2012; Junod and Pokines, 2013)."

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I Envy JTEM wrote:

This site, on the other hand, references "humidity." I'm guessing even if you are perplexed by that word you will have no trouble finding an adult who
can explain what it means, even if you are most unlikely to understand their answer.

It's pretty clear from the context that I had forgotten to actually paste this third cite:

https://wildonscience.com/2015/09/from-cradle-to-grave/

Do your word search on "Humidity" there... but seeing how you couldn't
find any references to "moist" or "moisture" in the first two cites, the prospects seem grim.

Blessings.



-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/676775721186869248

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Jerm wrote:

I Envy JTEM wrote:

This site, on the other hand, references "humidity." I'm guessing even if you
are perplexed by that word you will have no trouble finding an adult who
can explain what it means, even if you are most unlikely to understand their >> answer.

It's pretty clear from the context that I had forgotten to actually paste this
third cite:

It's clear you're "incredibly embarrassed", as you put it.

https://wildonscience.com/2015/09/from-cradle-to-grave/

Do your word search on "Humidity" there... but seeing how you couldn't
find any references to "moist" or "moisture" in the first two cites, the prospects seem grim.

"...University professor Lee Berger put out a call for “skinny anthropologists, biologists, cavers, not afraid of confined spaces”. Six women were chosen as the explorers who would brave this dark cave system
with its high humidity. "


Lee Berger's ad for volunteers:

https://news.wisc.edu/naledi/gurtov.html

“We need perhaps three or four individuals with excellent archaeological/paleontological
excavation skills for a short term project that may kick off as early as November 1st 2013
and last the month if all logistics go as planned. The catch is this – the person must be
skinny and preferably small. They must not be claustrophobic, they must be
fit, they
should have some caving experience, climbing experience would be a bonus.
They must
be willing to work in cramped quarters, have a good attitude and be a team player.”


No mention of "high humidity"...


Schematic of the Rising Star cave system

<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Cross-section_of_the_Rising_Star_Cave_system_Dinaledi_Chamber.svg/388px-Cross-section_of_the_Rising_Star_Cave_system_Dinaledi_Chamber.svg.png>

going through the narrow channels make little sense in a search for water...


https://elifesciences.org/articles/09561

"With the exception of six avian bones and isolated non-diagnostic rodent elements, all identifiable, macro-skeletal specimens recovered to date from
the Dinaledi Chamber are clearly hominin..."

"The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been
exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its
depositional history. "

"None of the bone fragments studied preserve evidence of bleaching,
cortical exfoliation, delamination or deep patination, indicating that the bones were not affected by solar radiation (Lyman and Fox, 1989, 1997);
that is, no bone fragment was exposed to weathering on surface outside
the cave, which is consistent with sedimentation patterns observed in the chamber."

"The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for sedimentation processes that involved significant water action able to transport coarse-grained material including bone fragments."

"No evidence is noted of vertebrate modifications such as those caused by carnivores, rodents or other hominins. The specimens were assessed for
evidence of edge polish from repeated gnawing, tooth pits or punctures perpendicular to the surface of the bone, tooth scores, striations and/or furrows (V or U-shaped in cross section), and traces of gastric corrosion (Haynes, 1983; de Ruiter and Berger, 2000; Pickering et al., 2004; Pokines
and Symes, 2013; Supplementary file 2). There is no evidence of stone tool inflicted cuts, scrapes, impact or chop marks (White, 2014). Tooth scores
and pits, crenulated edges and splintered shafts associated with carnivore damage (Kuhn, 2011) are absent. None of the specimens are burnt (Stiner
et al., 1995) or shows signs of trampling other than limited incidental recent breakage by cavers that is readily evident (Behrensmeyer et al., 1986)."

"Overall, weathering patterns of the bone surfaces are consistent with the effects of sub-aerial and sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark depositional environment that experienced stable temperatures."

"Limited weathering (physical and chemical) indicative of sub-aerial, sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark environment (Figure 10) indicate that the bones were never exposed to the earth's surface and elements (the sun and rain) outside the cave (Lyman
and Fox, 1989; Backwell et al., 2012; Junod and Pokines, 2013)."

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Penis Breath Sapienti wrote:

I Envy JTEM wrote:

This site, on the other hand, references "humidity." I'm guessing even if you
are perplexed by that word you will have no trouble finding an adult who >> can explain what it means, even if you are most unlikely to understand their
answer.

It's pretty clear from the context that I had forgotten to actually paste this
third cite:

It's clear you're "incredibly embarrassed", as you put it.

Explain. As you are by no means a raving jackass and you believe this statement of yours to be true, walk us through it. Explain your rational. Employ quotes.

NOTE: I'm laughing at you! You keep bluffing and it keeps failing!

https://wildonscience.com/2015/09/from-cradle-to-grave/

Do your word search on "Humidity" there... but seeing how you couldn't find any references to "moist" or "moisture" in the first two cites, the prospects seem grim.

"...University professor Lee Berger put out a call for “skinny anthropologists, biologists, cavers, not afraid of confined spaces”. Six women were chosen as the explorers who would brave this dark cave system with its high humidity. "

Oh. Okay. So three sites, two talk about moisture and one mentions humidity
and you claimed that no cites anywhere did this.

Lee Berger's ad for volunteers:

Why? Have you no clue how to build a case for something?

You've been proven wrong. Accept it and move on. STOP obfuscating.

No mention of "high humidity"...

Great. YOU QUOTED IT PREVIOUSLY! You quoted the use of the word humidity
in describing the cave, and saw two previous cites mentioning the moisture.

It's done. The fat lady sang, the ship sailed... it's all over.

You are literally arguing against reality!

It's established. You helped establish it yourself by digging out the quote, finally, after making a goddamn fool of yourself with the first two cites you never read.

going through the narrow channels make little sense in a search for water...

Yeah, an animal literally dying of thirst in a drought could not possibly be enticed by cool moist air... would never be attracted to that...

You're emotionally disturbed.

"With the exception of six avian bones and isolated non-diagnostic rodent elements, all identifiable, macro-skeletal specimens recovered to date from the Dinaledi Chamber are clearly hominin..."

And I'm wasting my time as you can't even comprehend what it's saying,
much less extrapolate it into some sort of argument but, what the hell do
you think this means? What does it refute in that scabbed over pea you
call a brain?

"The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its depositional history. "

Again, not addressing a goddamn thing... but you don't know that.

Unless you're currently so oxygen deprived that you simultaneously believe
that a SMALL NUMBER of individuals might not get trapped & die over a
period estimated to be 100,000 years or more, chiefly because the cave
system is too difficult/complex, but a population would plausible deposit
SOME of their dead -- but precious few?

Damn. You honestly are an idiot. It's not just an act.

These are not intentional burials. None of the evidence so much as suggests
it. Nothing you quoted leads to your idiotic "intentional burial" ramblings.






-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/677648736132923392

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Penis Breath Sapienti wrote:

I Envy JTEM wrote:

This site, on the other hand, references "humidity." I'm guessing even if you
are perplexed by that word you will have no trouble finding an adult who >>>> can explain what it means, even if you are most unlikely to understand their
answer.

It's pretty clear from the context that I had forgotten to actually paste this
third cite:

It's clear you're "incredibly embarrassed", as you put it.

Explain.

Lee Berger's ad for volunteers:

https://news.wisc.edu/naledi/gurtov.html

“We need perhaps three or four individuals with excellent archaeological/paleontological
excavation skills for a short term project that may kick off as early as November 1st 2013
and last the month if all logistics go as planned. The catch is this – the person must be
skinny and preferably small. They must not be claustrophobic, they must be
fit, they
should have some caving experience, climbing experience would be a bonus.
They must
be willing to work in cramped quarters, have a good attitude and be a team player.”


No mention of "high humidity"...


Schematic of the Rising Star cave system

<https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Cross-section_of_the_Rising_Star_Cave_system_Dinaledi_Chamber.svg/388px-Cross-section_of_the_Rising_Star_Cave_system_Dinaledi_Chamber.svg.png>

going through the narrow channels make little sense in a search for water...


https://elifesciences.org/articles/09561

"With the exception of six avian bones and isolated non-diagnostic rodent elements, all identifiable, macro-skeletal specimens recovered to date from
the Dinaledi Chamber are clearly hominin..."

"The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been
exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its
depositional history. "

"None of the bone fragments studied preserve evidence of bleaching,
cortical exfoliation, delamination or deep patination, indicating that the bones were not affected by solar radiation (Lyman and Fox, 1989, 1997);
that is, no bone fragment was exposed to weathering on surface outside
the cave, which is consistent with sedimentation patterns observed in the chamber."

"The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for sedimentation processes that involved significant water action able to transport coarse-grained material including bone fragments."

"No evidence is noted of vertebrate modifications such as those caused by carnivores, rodents or other hominins. The specimens were assessed for
evidence of edge polish from repeated gnawing, tooth pits or punctures perpendicular to the surface of the bone, tooth scores, striations and/or furrows (V or U-shaped in cross section), and traces of gastric corrosion (Haynes, 1983; de Ruiter and Berger, 2000; Pickering et al., 2004; Pokines
and Symes, 2013; Supplementary file 2). There is no evidence of stone tool inflicted cuts, scrapes, impact or chop marks (White, 2014). Tooth scores
and pits, crenulated edges and splintered shafts associated with carnivore damage (Kuhn, 2011) are absent. None of the specimens are burnt (Stiner
et al., 1995) or shows signs of trampling other than limited incidental recent breakage by cavers that is readily evident (Behrensmeyer et al., 1986)."

"Overall, weathering patterns of the bone surfaces are consistent with the effects of sub-aerial and sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark depositional environment that experienced stable temperatures."

"Limited weathering (physical and chemical) indicative of sub-aerial, sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark environment (Figure 10) indicate that the bones were never exposed to the earth's surface and elements (the sun and rain) outside the cave (Lyman
and Fox, 1989; Backwell et al., 2012; Junod and Pokines, 2013)."

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Primum Sapienti wrote:

Lee Berger's ad for volunteers:

Great. Besides CONFIRMING what I stated, what else did you hope to accomplish?

Pretending that these were intentional burials is an embarrassment. It's beyond stupid, it's laughable.




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/678857025448558592

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday 17 March 2022 at 03:18:20 UTC, Primum Sapienti wrote:

Lee Berger's ad for volunteers:

https://news.wisc.edu/naledi/gurtov.html

“We need perhaps three or four individuals with excellent archaeological/paleontological excavation skills for a short term
project that may kick off as early as November 1st 2013 and last
the month if all logistics go as planned. The catch is this – the
person must be skinny and preferably small. They must not be
claustrophobic, they must be fit, they should have some caving
experience, climbing experience would be a bonus. They must be
willing to work in cramped quarters, have a good attitude and be
a team player.

No mention of "high humidity"...

Google "caving humidity".

The applicants were required to have
caving experience, and so would have
known about the constant humidity.
No need to tell them.

Berger mentions in his videos about
the initial discovery that the first guys
to see the fossils found their cameras
would not work. The humidity was
so high.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday 17 March 2022 at 08:55:25 UTC, I Envy JTEM wrote:

Pretending that these were intentional burials is an embarrassment. It's beyond stupid, it's laughable.

When your beliefs are so rigid that you
have to block out all contrary evidence,
it's you that is the problem.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 1:08:09 AM UTC-5, Primum Sapienti wrote:

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

Here on Earth "moist" has a cause...

Yeah. Moisture.

And like I pointed out and you still can't grasp: "Moist AIR."

"Moist" is used as an adjective. The noun is "Air."

What was I talking about? AIR. The AIR is moist.

Now move on with your life before I start to saying something mean.

And how did the air get "moist"?

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/moist https://elifesciences.org/articles/09561

"With the exception of six avian bones and isolated non-diagnostic rodent elements, all identifiable, macro-skeletal specimens recovered to date from the Dinaledi Chamber are clearly hominin..."

"The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its depositional history. "

"None of the bone fragments studied preserve evidence of bleaching,
cortical exfoliation, delamination or deep patination, indicating that the bones were not affected by solar radiation (Lyman and Fox, 1989, 1997);
that is, no bone fragment was exposed to weathering on surface outside
the cave, which is consistent with sedimentation patterns observed in the chamber."
"The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for sedimentation processes that involved significant water action able to transport coarse-grained material including bone fragments."
"No evidence is noted of vertebrate modifications such as those caused by carnivores, rodents or other hominins. The specimens were assessed for evidence of edge polish from repeated gnawing, tooth pits or punctures perpendicular to the surface of the bone, tooth scores, striations and/or furrows (V or U-shaped in cross section), and traces of gastric corrosion (Haynes, 1983; de Ruiter and Berger, 2000; Pickering et al., 2004; Pokines and Symes, 2013; Supplementary file 2). There is no evidence of stone tool inflicted cuts, scrapes, impact or chop marks (White, 2014). Tooth scores and pits, crenulated edges and splintered shafts associated with carnivore damage (Kuhn, 2011) are absent. None of the specimens are burnt (Stiner
et al., 1995) or shows signs of trampling other than limited incidental recent
breakage by cavers that is readily evident (Behrensmeyer et al., 1986)."

"Overall, weathering patterns of the bone surfaces are consistent with the effects of sub-aerial and sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark depositional environment that experienced stable temperatures."

"Limited weathering (physical and chemical) indicative of sub-aerial, sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark environment (Figure 10) indicate that the bones were never exposed to the earth's surface and elements (the sun and rain) outside the cave (Lyman
and Fox, 1989; Backwell et al., 2012; Junod and Pokines, 2013)."

Caves are almost universally consistently damp and cool. If the surface entrance exuded the scent of humid air in an arid drought, many species would have detected it and attempted to enter for refreshment, gotten trapped and died leaving skeletons.
There was something not obvious today which enabled hominins but not others to leave their carcasses there.
I suspect that hominins entered (by sight not scent) for cool air (not water) during the heat of the day, and being good wiry climbers of small slender size were easily able to go deeper seeking a large chamber to sleep, died from heavier-than-air
toxic fumes. Most other fauna would have simply not gone deep, seeking only shade. The scent of water was not the key to this cave. Nor was deliberate burial. Nor was (insert mandatory macro) aquarboreal swampiness. They sought cool large space which had
no predators or biting flies, and found it. Rest in peace.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 9:15:46 AM UTC-4, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 1:08:09 AM UTC-5, Primum Sapienti wrote:

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

Here on Earth "moist" has a cause...

Yeah. Moisture.

And like I pointed out and you still can't grasp: "Moist AIR."

"Moist" is used as an adjective. The noun is "Air."

What was I talking about? AIR. The AIR is moist.

Now move on with your life before I start to saying something mean.

And how did the air get "moist"?

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/moist https://elifesciences.org/articles/09561

"With the exception of six avian bones and isolated non-diagnostic rodent elements, all identifiable, macro-skeletal specimens recovered to date from
the Dinaledi Chamber are clearly hominin..."

"The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its depositional history. "

"None of the bone fragments studied preserve evidence of bleaching, cortical exfoliation, delamination or deep patination, indicating that the bones were not affected by solar radiation (Lyman and Fox, 1989, 1997); that is, no bone fragment was exposed to weathering on surface outside
the cave, which is consistent with sedimentation patterns observed in the chamber."
"The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for sedimentation processes that involved significant water action able to transport coarse-grained material including bone fragments."
"No evidence is noted of vertebrate modifications such as those caused by carnivores, rodents or other hominins. The specimens were assessed for evidence of edge polish from repeated gnawing, tooth pits or punctures perpendicular to the surface of the bone, tooth scores, striations and/or furrows (V or U-shaped in cross section), and traces of gastric corrosion (Haynes, 1983; de Ruiter and Berger, 2000; Pickering et al., 2004; Pokines and Symes, 2013; Supplementary file 2). There is no evidence of stone tool inflicted cuts, scrapes, impact or chop marks (White, 2014). Tooth scores and pits, crenulated edges and splintered shafts associated with carnivore damage (Kuhn, 2011) are absent. None of the specimens are burnt (Stiner
et al., 1995) or shows signs of trampling other than limited incidental recent
breakage by cavers that is readily evident (Behrensmeyer et al., 1986)."

"Overall, weathering patterns of the bone surfaces are consistent with the effects of sub-aerial and sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark depositional environment that experienced stable temperatures."

"Limited weathering (physical and chemical) indicative of sub-aerial, sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark environment (Figure 10) indicate that the bones were never exposed to the earth's surface and elements (the sun and rain) outside the cave (Lyman and Fox, 1989; Backwell et al., 2012; Junod and Pokines, 2013)."

Caves are almost universally consistently damp and cool. If the surface entrance exuded the scent of humid air in an arid drought, many species would have detected it and attempted to enter for refreshment, gotten trapped and died leaving skeletons.

There was something not obvious today which enabled hominins but not others to leave their carcasses there.

I suspect that hominins entered (by sight not scent) for cool air (not water) during the heat of the day, and being good wiry climbers of small slender size were easily able to go deeper seeking a large chamber to sleep, died from heavier-than-air

toxic fumes. Most other fauna would have simply not gone deep, seeking only shade. The scent of water was not the key to this cave. Nor was deliberate burial. Nor was (insert mandatory macro) aquarboreal swampiness. They sought cool large space which had
no predators or biting flies, and found it. Rest in peace.

http://www.sci-news.com/featurednews/homo-naledi-fossils-04843.html

Hnaledi had unique vertebrae only found elsewhere in Hneandertal.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 9:31:06 AM UTC-4, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 9:15:46 AM UTC-4, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 1:08:09 AM UTC-5, Primum Sapienti wrote:

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

Here on Earth "moist" has a cause...

Yeah. Moisture.

And like I pointed out and you still can't grasp: "Moist AIR."

"Moist" is used as an adjective. The noun is "Air."

What was I talking about? AIR. The AIR is moist.

Now move on with your life before I start to saying something mean.

And how did the air get "moist"?

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/moist https://elifesciences.org/articles/09561

"With the exception of six avian bones and isolated non-diagnostic rodent
elements, all identifiable, macro-skeletal specimens recovered to date from
the Dinaledi Chamber are clearly hominin..."

"The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface
structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its depositional history. "

"None of the bone fragments studied preserve evidence of bleaching, cortical exfoliation, delamination or deep patination, indicating that the
bones were not affected by solar radiation (Lyman and Fox, 1989, 1997); that is, no bone fragment was exposed to weathering on surface outside the cave, which is consistent with sedimentation patterns observed in the
chamber."
"The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for
sedimentation processes that involved significant water action able to transport coarse-grained material including bone fragments."
"No evidence is noted of vertebrate modifications such as those caused by
carnivores, rodents or other hominins. The specimens were assessed for evidence of edge polish from repeated gnawing, tooth pits or punctures perpendicular to the surface of the bone, tooth scores, striations and/or
furrows (V or U-shaped in cross section), and traces of gastric corrosion
(Haynes, 1983; de Ruiter and Berger, 2000; Pickering et al., 2004; Pokines
and Symes, 2013; Supplementary file 2). There is no evidence of stone tool
inflicted cuts, scrapes, impact or chop marks (White, 2014). Tooth scores
and pits, crenulated edges and splintered shafts associated with carnivore
damage (Kuhn, 2011) are absent. None of the specimens are burnt (Stiner et al., 1995) or shows signs of trampling other than limited incidental recent
breakage by cavers that is readily evident (Behrensmeyer et al., 1986)."

"Overall, weathering patterns of the bone surfaces are consistent with the
effects of sub-aerial and sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark depositional environment that experienced stable temperatures."

"Limited weathering (physical and chemical) indicative of sub-aerial, sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark environment (Figure 10) indicate that the bones were never exposed to the
earth's surface and elements (the sun and rain) outside the cave (Lyman and Fox, 1989; Backwell et al., 2012; Junod and Pokines, 2013)."

Caves are almost universally consistently damp and cool. If the surface entrance exuded the scent of humid air in an arid drought, many species would have detected it and attempted to enter for refreshment, gotten trapped and died leaving skeletons.

There was something not obvious today which enabled hominins but not others to leave their carcasses there.

I suspect that hominins entered (by sight not scent) for cool air (not water) during the heat of the day, and being good wiry climbers of small slender size were easily able to go deeper seeking a large chamber to sleep, died from heavier-than-air

toxic fumes. Most other fauna would have simply not gone deep, seeking only shade. The scent of water was not the key to this cave. Nor was deliberate burial. Nor was (insert mandatory macro) aquarboreal swampiness. They sought cool large space which had
no predators or biting flies, and found it. Rest in peace.

http://www.sci-news.com/featurednews/homo-naledi-fossils-04843.html

Hnaledi had unique vertebrae only found elsewhere in Hneandertal.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Temperature-in-Sakoto-cave-versus-woodland-habitat-and-chimpanzee-cave-visits-weeks_fig1_6214729

Chimps in Fongoli Senegal savannah rest in caves during dry season (no water) during the hottest time of the day. In tropical forests, they make day nests in canopy shade.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Paul Crowley wrote:

When your beliefs are so rigid that you
have to block out all contrary evidence,
it's you that is the problem.

Is this a come-on? Are you hitting on me? Look. I'm flattered, I'm sure, but
I don't think I want to $#%& you. Sorry.

I mean, *I Know* you're not serious about this retarded "Intentional burial" thing. How many individuals are represented? Over how long a period of
time?

Where are the rest?

These animals didn't have fire, they certainly weren't ritualistic...

That's insane. No, clearly, you're trying to win my sexual favors with a display of your humor. But, sorry, not interested.





-- --

https://rumble.com/vr5fsv-confessions-of-an-ex-hippie.html

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 9:15:46 AM UTC-4, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

On Sunday, January 30, 2022 at 1:08:09 AM UTC-5, Primum Sapienti wrote:

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

Here on Earth "moist" has a cause...

Yeah. Moisture.

And like I pointed out and you still can't grasp: "Moist AIR."

"Moist" is used as an adjective. The noun is "Air."

What was I talking about? AIR. The AIR is moist.

Now move on with your life before I start to saying something mean.

And how did the air get "moist"?

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/moist https://elifesciences.org/articles/09561

"With the exception of six avian bones and isolated non-diagnostic rodent elements, all identifiable, macro-skeletal specimens recovered to date from
the Dinaledi Chamber are clearly hominin..."

"The skeletal assemblage of H. naledi displays little variation in surface structure and condition, indicating that the hominin material has been exposed to a limited range of environmental fluctuation during its depositional history. "

"None of the bone fragments studied preserve evidence of bleaching, cortical exfoliation, delamination or deep patination, indicating that the bones were not affected by solar radiation (Lyman and Fox, 1989, 1997); that is, no bone fragment was exposed to weathering on surface outside
the cave, which is consistent with sedimentation patterns observed in the chamber."
"The matrix sediments surrounding the fossils do not present evidence for sedimentation processes that involved significant water action able to transport coarse-grained material including bone fragments."
"No evidence is noted of vertebrate modifications such as those caused by carnivores, rodents or other hominins. The specimens were assessed for evidence of edge polish from repeated gnawing, tooth pits or punctures perpendicular to the surface of the bone, tooth scores, striations and/or furrows (V or U-shaped in cross section), and traces of gastric corrosion (Haynes, 1983; de Ruiter and Berger, 2000; Pickering et al., 2004; Pokines and Symes, 2013; Supplementary file 2). There is no evidence of stone tool inflicted cuts, scrapes, impact or chop marks (White, 2014). Tooth scores and pits, crenulated edges and splintered shafts associated with carnivore damage (Kuhn, 2011) are absent. None of the specimens are burnt (Stiner
et al., 1995) or shows signs of trampling other than limited incidental recent
breakage by cavers that is readily evident (Behrensmeyer et al., 1986)."

"Overall, weathering patterns of the bone surfaces are consistent with the effects of sub-aerial and sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark depositional environment that experienced stable temperatures."

"Limited weathering (physical and chemical) indicative of sub-aerial, sub-surface processes in a periodically wet or water-saturated, dark environment (Figure 10) indicate that the bones were never exposed to the earth's surface and elements (the sun and rain) outside the cave (Lyman and Fox, 1989; Backwell et al., 2012; Junod and Pokines, 2013)."

Caves are almost universally consistently damp and cool. If the surface entrance exuded the scent of humid air in an arid drought, many species would have detected it and attempted to enter for refreshment, gotten trapped and died leaving skeletons.

There was something not obvious today which enabled hominins but not others to leave their carcasses there.

I suspect that hominins entered (by sight not scent) for cool air (not water) during the heat of the day, and being good wiry climbers of small slender size were easily able to go deeper seeking a large chamber to sleep, died from heavier-than-air

toxic fumes. Most other fauna would have simply not gone deep, seeking only shade. The scent of water was not the key to this cave. Nor was deliberate burial. Nor was (insert mandatory macro) aquarboreal swampiness. They sought cool large space which had
no predators or biting flies, and found it. Rest in peace.

I use 'hominins' here in the sense of basal kin to Homo, they were probably a branch of Pan-bonobo/Homo that slept in arboreal bowl nests in wet season and ground nests (possibly in caves when available) in dry swamps during dry season (as some chimps do,
avoiding both wet and dry predators, probably mostly bipedal with only incipient knucklewalking). Dominant bonobo females sleep highest in trees, curved finger bones aid climbing.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Paul Crowley wrote:

On Thursday 17 March 2022 at 03:18:20 UTC, Primum Sapienti wrote:

Lee Berger's ad for volunteers:

https://news.wisc.edu/naledi/gurtov.html

“We need perhaps three or four individuals with excellent
archaeological/paleontological excavation skills for a short term
project that may kick off as early as November 1st 2013 and last
the month if all logistics go as planned. The catch is this – the
person must be skinny and preferably small. They must not be
claustrophobic, they must be fit, they should have some caving
experience, climbing experience would be a bonus. They must be
willing to work in cramped quarters, have a good attitude and be
a team player.

No mention of "high humidity"...

Google "caving humidity".

We're talking about one and only one cave here.

The applicants were required to have
caving experience, and so would have
known about the constant humidity.
No need to tell them.

Berger mentions in his videos about
the initial discovery that the first guys
to see the fossils found their cameras
would not work. The humidity was
so high.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

Lee Berger's ad for volunteers:

Great. Besides CONFIRMING what I stated, what else did you hope to accomplish?

Pretending that these were intentional burials is an embarrassment. It's beyond
stupid, it's laughable.

Germ would look at a tiny narrow hole and say, hey everyone, let's squeeze
in there
and cool off... someone give me a push...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday 17 March 2022 at 13:15:46 UTC, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
.

I suspect that hominins entered (by sight not scent) for cool
air (not water) during the heat of the day, and being good
wiry climbers of small slender size were easily able to go
deeper seeking a large chamber to sleep, died from heavier-
than-air toxic fumes. Most other fauna would have simply not
gone deep, seeking only shade. The scent of water was not the
key to this cave. Nor was deliberate burial. Nor was (insert
mandatory macro) aquarboreal swampiness. They sought cool
large space which had no predators or biting flies, and found
it. Rest in peace.

When your beliefs are so rigid that you
have to block out all contrary evidence,
it's you that is the problem.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Somebody:

I suspect that hominins entered (by sight not scent) for cool
air (not water) during the heat of the day, and being good
wiry climbers of small slender size were easily able to go
deeper seeking a large chamber to sleep ...

:-DDD

When your beliefs are so rigid that you
have to block out all contrary evidence,
it's you that is the problem.

Yes, google e.g.
"ape human evolution made easy PPT Verhaegen"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Primum Sapienti wrote:

[...]

Grow some pubic hair, finally, and pretend that you're maturing. That way
you can maybe find enough integrity to admit that you were wrong.

Or you could just continue down this toboggan plunge into shame...





-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/680033542752829440

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Primum Sapienti wrote:

We're talking about one and only one cave here.

No we're not. The point about the moist air was settled long ago. But
you're still mouthing off. So it's not about any cave, no facts matter
here, this is all about YOU and YOUR inability to admit that you were
wrong.

https://groups.google.com/g/sci.anthropology.paleo/c/_MTWZY_Vxe4/m/cBQieefIFgAJ

I had forgotten the third cite, which I clearly reference there, but as it's
in this very thread, and you are pretending to be talking about a cave
and the facts surrounding it, you no doubt are already looking back and
finding it. That third cite. Pretending the two I presented in the abover weren't enough.

So what's the issue here? a cave?

No. It's your inability to admit that you were wrong.



-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/680033542752829440

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 9:27:00 AM UTC-4, Paul Crowley wrote:

On Thursday 17 March 2022 at 13:15:46 UTC, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
.

I suspect that hominins entered (by sight not scent) for cool
air (not water) during the heat of the day, and being good
wiry climbers of small slender size were easily able to go
deeper seeking a large chamber to sleep, died from heavier-
than-air toxic fumes. Most other fauna would have simply not
gone deep, seeking only shade. The scent of water was not the
key to this cave. Nor was deliberate burial. Nor was (insert
mandatory macro) aquarboreal swampiness. They sought cool
large space which had no predators or biting flies, and found
it. Rest in peace.

When your beliefs are so rigid that you
have to block out all contrary evidence,
it's you that is the problem.

What contrary evidence?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 11:58:09 AM UTC-4, littor...@gmail.com wrote:

Somebody:

I suspect that hominins entered (by sight not scent) for cool
air (not water) during the heat of the day, and being good
wiry climbers of small slender size were easily able to go
deeper seeking a large chamber to sleep ...

:-DDD

When your beliefs are so rigid that you
have to block out all contrary evidence,
it's you that is the problem.

Yes, google e.g.
"ape human evolution made fake PPT Verhaegen"

Fixed.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, March 30, 2022 at 3:43:20 PM UTC-4, I Envy JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

We're talking about one and only one cave here.

No we're not. The point about the moist air was settled long ago. But
you're still mouthing off. So it's not about any cave, no facts matter
here, this is all about YOU and YOUR inability to admit that you were
wrong.

https://groups.google.com/g/sci.anthropology.paleo/c/_MTWZY_Vxe4/m/cBQieefIFgAJ

I had forgotten the third cite, which I clearly reference there, but as it's in this very thread, and you are pretending to be talking about a cave
and the facts surrounding it, you no doubt are already looking back and finding it. That third cite. Pretending the two I presented in the abover weren't enough.

So what's the issue here? a cave?

No. It's your inability to admit that you were wrong.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/680033542752829440

Cool cave hot day. Not complicated.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday 31 March 2022 at 03:32:28 UTC+1, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

I suspect that hominins entered (by sight not scent) for cool
air (not water) during the heat of the day, and being good
wiry climbers of small slender size were easily able to go
deeper seeking a large chamber to sleep, died from heavier-
than-air toxic fumes. Most other fauna would have simply not
gone deep, seeking only shade. The scent of water was not the
key to this cave. Nor was deliberate burial. Nor was (insert
mandatory macro) aquarboreal swampiness. They sought cool
large space which had no predators or biting flies, and found
it. Rest in peace.

..
When your beliefs are so rigid that you
have to block out all contrary evidence,
it's you that is the problem.
..

What contrary evidence?

Those caves!

See https://twitter.com/johnhawks?lang=en

John Hawks and Lee Berger recently went into
the 'entrance' to the system, squeezing through
the 'superman crawl'. It's been widened, and
can now take over-weight middle aged men.
See the brief videos.

Even with light the complexity of the various
chamber and passages are confusing. It's a
3-dimensional puzzle. The entrance to the
'superman crawl' is far down in the cave, well
beyond any light. I hadn't realised that the
"dragon's back" was a narrow ridge, with a
steep fall of several metres if you slipped.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/data/naledi/

No one would ever go so far into such a cave
without light. The absence of animal fossils
of all other species tells you that.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, March 31, 2022 at 3:19:11 PM UTC-4, Paul Crowley wrote:

On Thursday 31 March 2022 at 03:32:28 UTC+1, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

I suspect that hominins entered (by sight not scent) for cool
air (not water) during the heat of the day, and being good
wiry climbers of small slender size were easily able to go
deeper seeking a large chamber to sleep, died from heavier-
than-air toxic fumes. Most other fauna would have simply not
gone deep, seeking only shade. The scent of water was not the
key to this cave. Nor was deliberate burial. Nor was (insert
mandatory macro) aquarboreal swampiness. They sought cool
large space which had no predators or biting flies, and found
it. Rest in peace.

..
When your beliefs are so rigid that you
have to block out all contrary evidence,
it's you that is the problem.
..

What contrary evidence?

Those caves!

Those 3D underground labyrinths sound like excellent places to cool down on a hot hot day, predators and parasites unable to attack, food stored in the cellar during drought, plenty of room to rest, silence allowed primitive echolocation as guidance in
the pitch black using clicks and sticks and stones. Do you think that Berger and Hawks are their body size?

See https://twitter.com/johnhawks?lang=en

John Hawks and Lee Berger recently went into
the 'entrance' to the system, squeezing through
the 'superman crawl'. It's been widened, and
can now take over-weight middle aged men.
See the brief videos.

Even with light the complexity of the various
chamber and passages are confusing. It's a
3-dimensional puzzle. The entrance to the
'superman crawl' is far down in the cave, well
beyond any light. I hadn't realised that the
"dragon's back" was a narrow ridge, with a
steep fall of several metres if you slipped.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/data/naledi/

No one would ever go so far into such a cave
without light. The absence of animal fossils
of all other species tells you that.

Primitive telegraphy. The blind man rules the darkest cave.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday 31 March 2022 at 23:52:02 UTC+1, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/data/naledi/
..
No one would ever go so far into such a cave
without light. The absence of animal fossils
of all other species tells you that.

..
Primitive telegraphy. The blind man rules the darkest cave.

When your beliefs are so rigid that you
have to block out all contrary evidence,
it's you that is the problem.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Friday, April 1, 2022 at 7:49:31 AM UTC-4, Paul Crowley wrote:

On Thursday 31 March 2022 at 23:52:02 UTC+1, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/data/naledi/
..
No one would ever go so far into such a cave
without light. The absence of animal fossils
of all other species tells you that.

..
Primitive telegraphy. The blind man rules the darkest cave.

When your beliefs are so rigid that you
have to block out all contrary evidence,
it's you that is the problem.

Ignorance is bliss, Gilligan.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

We're talking about one and only one cave here.

No we're not. The point about the moist air was settled long ago. But
you're still mouthing off. So it's not about any cave, no facts matter
here, this is all about YOU and YOUR inability to admit that you were
wrong.

https://groups.google.com/g/sci.anthropology.paleo/c/_MTWZY_Vxe4/m/cBQieefIFgAJ

I had forgotten the third cite, which I clearly reference there, but as it's in this very thread, and you are pretending to be talking about a cave
and the facts surrounding it, you no doubt are already looking back and finding it. That third cite. Pretending the two I presented in the abover weren't enough.

So what's the issue here? a cave?

No. It's your inability to admit that you were wrong.

So, why would this primatge crawl into this tiny tight hole????

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

So, why would this primatge crawl into this tiny tight hole????

It didn't, of course, google
"Not Homo but Pan or Australopithecus naledi PPT".

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Primum Sapienti wrote:

So, why would this primatge crawl into this tiny tight hole????

Well seeing how you missed it the first 900 times, the crazies think it was
a two-way trip, one of them while lugging around a dead body. Intelligent people see it more as the Roach Motel for Naledi where Naledi go in but
they don't go out...

Again, you're oblivious to the last 900 times this was gone over, and you
know doubt view this as an accomplishment, but the cool moist air from
the depths would have been a powerful draw during a scorching drought.
If you want you can scramble your brain & pretend that the word :"Air" is "Water." That seems to be popular amongst the mouth breathers.

And, oh; "Moist" is an adjective. You can impress the trailer park crowd
by mistaking it for a noun -- a variation on the spelling of "Air" which
in turn is French for "Water."

It has been suggested that they didn't even need to be in drought
conditions. That, a simple heat wave might've been enough to drive them
down into that cool (moist) air...

But if you missed every other time this stuff has been raised, what are the odds of you catching it this time?




-- --

https://filmfreeway.com/BostonsScreamingOstrichFilmFestival

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday 19 April 2022 at 00:36:12 UTC+1, I Envy JTEM wrote:

So, why would this primatge crawl into this tiny tight hole????

Well seeing how you missed it the first 900 times, the crazies think it was
a two-way trip, one of them while lugging around a dead body. Intelligent people see it more as the Roach Motel for Naledi where Naledi go in but
they don't go out...

Again, you're oblivious to the last 900 times this was gone over, and you know doubt view this as an accomplishment, but the cool moist air from
the depths would have been a powerful draw during a scorching drought.
If you want you can scramble your brain & pretend that the word :"Air" is "Water." That seems to be popular amongst the mouth breathers.

Primates rarely go down holes. But many
species often do -- e.g. rodents, pigs. They
usually have a much better ability to scent
water. Yet there are NO remains of any
such species in the depths of this cave.
They cannot cope with the complete
absence of light. But somehow h.naledi
did.

That's what you have to explain.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Paul Crowley wrote:

Primates rarely go down holes.

"They bury their dead" is a rule. So it would be "Always go down
holes." However, the intelligent and rather obvious explanation
that they didn't, it was an exception, they did NOT bury there dead
(which is a rule) takes care of that.

But many
species often do -- e.g. rodents, pigs. They
usually have a much better ability to scent
water.

Thanks you. Thank you for thinking that the word "Air" is an
alternative spelling of "Water."

I would have been disappointed if I had seen an intelligent
argument in opposition...

HINT: If something is really good at finding water, and there's
no water there, only moist air, they are not going to go down
there. BECAUSE they're really good at finding water and there's
no water, just moist air...

"Water" is a noun yet, and I hope you are sitting for this, the
noun in my statement is "Air."

"Moist" is an adjective.

Glad we straightened this out, again, and look forward to the
many, many, Many, MANY more times it will have to be
repeated, as you fail to grasp it.

*Hugs!*



-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/681976832492486656

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 12:52:32 AM UTC-4, I Envy JTEM wrote:

Paul Crowley wrote:

Primates rarely go down holes.

"They bury their dead" is a rule. So it would be "Always go down
holes." However, the intelligent and rather obvious explanation
that they didn't, it was an exception, they did NOT bury there dead
(which is a rule) takes care of that.

But many
species often do -- e.g. rodents, pigs. They
usually have a much better ability to scent
water.

Thanks you. Thank you for thinking that the word "Air" is an
alternative spelling of "Water."

I would have been disappointed if I had seen an intelligent
argument in opposition...

HINT: If something is really good at finding water, and there's
no water there, only moist air, they are not going to go down
there. BECAUSE they're really good at finding water and there's
no water, just moist air...

"Water" is a noun yet, and I hope you are sitting for this, the
noun in my statement is "Air."

"Moist" is an adjective.

Glad we straightened this out, again, and look forward to the
many, many, Many, MANY more times it will have to be
repeated, as you fail to grasp it.

*Hugs!*

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/681976832492486656

Jerm all wet.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

[...]

If you want people to know that you're an emotional basket case, keep
doing what you're doing.





-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/682192196226760704

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thursday, April 21, 2022 at 10:38:36 PM UTC-4, I Envy JTEM wrote:

DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:
[...]

If you want people to know that you're an emotional basket case, keep
doing what you're doing.

-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/682192196226760704

Trolling?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

So, why would this primatge crawl into this tiny tight hole????

Well seeing how you missed it the first 900 times, the crazies think it was
a two-way trip, one of them while lugging around a dead body. Intelligent people see it more as the Roach Motel for Naledi where Naledi go in but
they don't go out...

Again, you're oblivious to the last 900 times this was gone over, and you know doubt view this as an accomplishment, but the cool moist air from
the depths would have been a powerful draw during a scorching drought.
If you want you can scramble your brain & pretend that the word :"Air" is "Water." That seems to be popular amongst the mouth breathers.

And, oh; "Moist" is an adjective. You can impress the trailer park crowd
by mistaking it for a noun -- a variation on the spelling of "Air" which
in turn is French for "Water."

It has been suggested that they didn't even need to be in drought
conditions. That, a simple heat wave might've been enough to drive them
down into that cool (moist) air...

But if you missed every other time this stuff has been raised, what are the odds of you catching it this time?

So you think they huffed and puffed and crawled into a tight hole to cool
off? LOL

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Primum Sapienti wrote:

So you think they

You. Not "They": You. I said "Cool most air" and YOU decided that I said "There was water! There was so much water! There was a goddamn
lake down there! They all drowned!"

You did that. Right here. In this thread. And you're still doing it.



-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/683253336492949504

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

So you think they

You. Not "They": You. I said "Cool most air" and YOU decided that I said "There was water! There was so much water! There was a goddamn
lake down there! They all drowned!"

You did that. Right here. In this thread. And you're still doing it.

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

So, why would this primatge crawl into this tiny tight hole????

Well seeing how you missed it the first 900 times, the crazies think it was a two-way trip, one of them while lugging around a dead body. Intelligent people see it more as the Roach Motel for Naledi where Naledi go in but
they don't go out...

Again, you're oblivious to the last 900 times this was gone over, and you know doubt view this as an accomplishment, but the cool moist air from
the depths would have been a powerful draw during a scorching drought.
If you want you can scramble your brain & pretend that the word :"Air" is "Water." That seems to be popular amongst the mouth breathers.

And, oh; "Moist" is an adjective. You can impress the trailer park crowd
by mistaking it for a noun -- a variation on the spelling of "Air" which
in turn is French for "Water."

It has been suggested that they didn't even need to be in drought conditions. That, a simple heat wave might've been enough to drive them
down into that cool (moist) air...

But if you missed every other time this stuff has been raised, what are the odds of you catching it this time?

So you think they huffed and puffed and crawled into a tight hole to cool
off? LOL

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Primum Sapienti wrote:

So you think they huffed and puffed and crawled into a tight hole to cool off? LOL

So you're pretending that's unlikely, but that they did crawl into that exact same tight hole carrying bodies... only to find their way back out in
complete darkness.

It's like claiming they were strong enough to lift 200 pounds but too weak
to lift 40.



-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/685099303937720320

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Op donderdag 4 november 2021 om 16:31:23 UTC+1 schreef Pandora:

Expanded Explorations of the Dinaledi Subsystem, Rising Star Cave
System, South Africa.

https://slideplayer.com/slide/13752676/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

littor...@gmail.com wrote:

Op donderdag 4 november 2021 om 16:31:23 UTC+1 schreef Pandora:

Expanded Explorations of the Dinaledi Subsystem, Rising Star Cave
System, South Africa.

https://slideplayer.com/slide/13752676/

That is correct, going by everything I ever heard. The Chimp hand is the
more derived, the human hand closer to our more primitive ancestors.
So Naledi isn't "Highly Evolved" it's primitive.




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/685240631321411584

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

So you think they huffed and puffed and crawled into a tight hole to cool
off? LOL

So you're pretending that's unlikely, but that they did crawl into that exact same tight hole carrying bodies... only to find their way back out in complete darkness.

I never made that claim. The real scenario hasn't been worked out yet. Little Foot and Altamura are suggestive.

It's like claiming they were strong enough to lift 200 pounds but too weak
to lift 40.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Primum Sapienti wrote:

I never made that claim.

Nor stated anything of substance.

You're quote consistent.




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/685829083109720064

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I Pity JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

I never made that claim.

Nor stated anything of substance.

Whereas you just make things up, and just admitted it.

I Pity JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

So you think they huffed and puffed and crawled into a tight hole to cool
off? LOL

So you're pretending that's unlikely, but that they did crawl into that

exact

same tight hole carrying bodies... only to find their way back out in complete darkness.

I never made that claim. The real scenario hasn't been worked out yet. Little Foot and Altamura are suggestive.

It's like claiming they were strong enough to lift 200 pounds but too weak to lift 40.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I lust for JTEM, Primum Sapienti wrote:

Whereas you just make things up, and just admitted it.

Hmm. I said "Moist cool air" you made up "Water! There was so much
water that they downed in it!"

The magnificent and oh so brilliant JTEM truthed:

same tight hole carrying bodies... only to find their way back out in complete darkness.

I never made that claim.

Yes you did. It's intrinsic, inseparable from the "Dee Bew-weed deer dead" nonsense that you're defending.

The real scenario hasn't been worked out yet.

Irrelevant. The burial claims has been worked out of the picture. It's nonsense.

It's idiocy.




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/686422959109341184

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Op donderdag 9 juni 2022 om 18:29:24 UTC+2 schreef I Envy JTEM:

I lust for JTEM, Primum Sapienti wrote:

Whereas you just make things up, and just admitted it.

Hmm. I said "Moist cool air" you made up "Water! There was so much
water that they downed in it!"

The magnificent and oh so brilliant JTEM truthed:

same tight hole carrying bodies... only to find their way back out in complete darkness.

I never made that claim.

Yes you did. It's intrinsic, inseparable from the "Dee Bew-weed deer dead" nonsense that you're defending.

The real scenario hasn't been worked out yet.

Irrelevant. The burial claims has been worked out of the picture. It's nonsense.
It's idiocy.

Yes, obviously:
https://slideplayer.com/slide/13752676/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I Pity JTEM wrote:

I pity JTEM, Primum Sapienti wrote:

Whereas you just make things up, and just admitted it.

Hmm. I said "Moist cool air" you made up "Water! There was so much
water that they downed in it!"

Moisture and water go together, even little kids learn this.

The magnificent and oh so brilliant JTEM truthed:

same tight hole carrying bodies... only to find their way back out in
complete darkness.

I never made that claim.

Yes you did. It's intrinsic, inseparable from the "Dee Bew-weed deer dead" nonsense that you're defending.

In English, please.

The real scenario hasn't been worked out yet.

Irrelevant. The burial claims has been worked out of the picture. It's nonsense.

It's idiocy.

You can't help it.

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

So you think they huffed and puffed and crawled into a tight hole to cool
off? LOL

So you're pretending that's unlikely, but that they did crawl into that

exact

same tight hole carrying bodies... only to find their way back out in complete darkness.

I never made that claim. The real scenario hasn't been worked out yet. Little Foot and Altamura are suggestive.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In English, please.

https://slideplayer.com/slide/13752676/

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Wets his bed, Primum Sapienti wrote:

[...]

If & when you are ready to admit that I said "Moist cool air" and
you stupidly read "WATER! LOTS OF WATER! THEY WERE
DROWNING IN THE STUFF" I would be happy to attempt a
rational discussion with you, even knowing that you'd fail. Until
then, talk to the hand.




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/688861742480162816

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Wets his bed, Primum Sapienti wrote:

[...]

If & when you are ready to admit that I said "Moist cool air" and
you stupidly read "WATER! LOTS OF WATER! THEY WERE
DROWNING IN THE STUFF" I would be happy to attempt a
rational discussion with you, even knowing that you'd fail. Until
then, talk to the hand.

I Pity JTEM wrote:

I pity JTEM, Primum Sapienti wrote:

Whereas you just make things up, and just admitted it.

Hmm. I said "Moist cool air" you made up "Water! There was so much
water that they downed in it!"

Moisture and water go together, even little kids learn this.

The magnificent and oh so brilliant JTEM truthed:

same tight hole carrying bodies... only to find their way back out in
complete darkness.

I never made that claim.

Yes you did. It's intrinsic, inseparable from the "Dee Bew-weed deer dead" nonsense that you're defending.

In English, please.

The real scenario hasn't been worked out yet.

Irrelevant. The burial claims has been worked out of the picture. It's

nonsense.

It's idiocy.

You can't help it.

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

So you think they huffed and puffed and crawled into a tight hole to cool
off? LOL

So you're pretending that's unlikely, but that they did crawl into that

exact

same tight hole carrying bodies... only to find their way back out in complete darkness.

I never made that claim. The real scenario hasn't been worked out yet. Little Foot and Altamura are suggestive.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Talking to the hand, Primum Sapienti wrote:

I Envy JTEM wrote:

If & when you are ready to admit that I said "Moist cool air" and
you stupidly read "WATER! LOTS OF WATER! THEY WERE
DROWNING IN THE STUFF" I would be happy to attempt a
rational discussion with you, even knowing that you'd fail. Until
then, talk to the hand.

Moisture and water go together

No. "Moist" as in "Moist air" is an adjective while "Water" as in "I
drink water" is a noun.

Adjectives /Describe/ nouns. They are not nouns themselves.

"Moist" is to "Air" what "Tall" is to "Man."



-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/692386667024285696

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Talking to the hand, Primum Sapienti wrote:

I Envy JTEM wrote:

If & when you are ready to admit that I said "Moist cool air" and
you stupidly read "WATER! LOTS OF WATER! THEY WERE
DROWNING IN THE STUFF" I would be happy to attempt a
rational discussion with you, even knowing that you'd fail. Until
then, talk to the hand.

Moisture and water go together

No. "Moist" as in "Moist air" is an adjective while "Water" as in "I
drink water" is a noun.

Adjectives /Describe/ nouns. They are not nouns themselves.

"Moist" is to "Air" what "Tall" is to "Man."

Only in AA land is "moist" = dry.

I Pity JTEM wrote:

I pity JTEM, Primum Sapienti wrote:

Whereas you just make things up, and just admitted it.

Hmm. I said "Moist cool air" you made up "Water! There was so much
water that they downed in it!"

Moisture and water go together, even little kids learn this.

The magnificent and oh so brilliant JTEM truthed:

same tight hole carrying bodies... only to find their way back out in
complete darkness.

I never made that claim.

Yes you did. It's intrinsic, inseparable from the "Dee Bew-weed deer dead" nonsense that you're defending.

In English, please.

The real scenario hasn't been worked out yet.

Irrelevant. The burial claims has been worked out of the picture. It's

nonsense.

It's idiocy.

You can't help it.

I Envy JTEM wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

So you think they huffed and puffed and crawled into a tight hole to cool
off? LOL

So you're pretending that's unlikely, but that they did crawl into that

exact

same tight hole carrying bodies... only to find their way back out in complete darkness.

I never made that claim. The real scenario hasn't been worked out yet. Little Foot and Altamura are suggestive.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Primum Sapienti wrote:

Only in AA land is "moist" = dry.

Hmm. And "Tall" = short?

"Heavy" = light?

Look. This is rudimentary English. And although nobody is saying that
you have to be a native English speaker to hold an opinion, when you
lack basic English skills, as you clearly do, you could at least Google
the corrections given to you.

Seriously. "Moist" in an adjective. Google it. Learn something.





-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/693572982046588928

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)