"In the African savanna, animals that preferentially forage in
recently burned areas include savanna chimpanzees (a variety of Pan troglodytes verus), vervet monkeys (Cercopithecus aethiops)..." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_of_fire_by_early_humans#Control_of_fire
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
"In the African savanna, animals that preferentially forage in
recently burned areas include savanna chimpanzees (a variety of Pan
troglodytes verus), vervet monkeys (Cercopithecus aethiops)..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_of_fire_by_early_humans#Control_of_fire
So does that mean Chimps only ever evolved AFTER Homo mastered
the use of fire?
Ground foraging could be a source of selective pressure on knuckle
walking.
One defining characteristic of dinosaurs, for example, is that their
legs are under their body, like a horse of cow. But there are a few,
such as the triceratops, whose front legs are splayed out lizard like.
This is believed to be an adaptation to ground foraging.
You make an interesting argument: Humans didn't force the
evolution of Chimps & Gorillas by driving them extinct everywhere
but the forest, we invented them by setting fires...
Talk about this idea of yours more, thank you.
10 mya apes were like orangutans.
Then came humans
who started to burn pig nests, and trees on which
apes were.
Well, it looks like we did better job in Africa than in SE Asia
because in Africa we actually forced some apes to adapt to ground
living. Those apes were forced to run on all fours
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
10 mya apes were like orangutans.
Wrong. But interesting.
Then came humans
Magicked right into existence, did we?
who started to burn pig nests, and trees on which
apes were.
Was this 10 million years ago or slightly more recent?
This running around, setting things on fire...
And Pigs are domesticated animals. I'm guessing you mean
Wild Boars but for all I know you meant to say that humans
domesticated the pig, set them loose, let them go ferrel, just
so they could use their new fire-making skills to burn their
little nests...
Again, interesting. Very wrong but interesting.
Well, it looks like we did better job in Africa than in SE Asia
Got rid of all those ferrel pigs, did they?
because in Africa we actually forced some apes to adapt to ground
living. Those apes were forced to run on all fours
Which is weird because now you're describing orangutans, with
that "All fours."
Must've been the pigs, huh?
JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
Was this 10 million years ago or slightly more recent?
This running around, setting things on fire...
This is called Vallesian crisis, 9.7 mya. North Mediterranean. By 8
mya this practice moved to Africa.
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
Was this 10 million years ago or slightly more recent?
This running around, setting things on fire...
This is called Vallesian crisis, 9.7 mya. North Mediterranean. By 8
mya this practice moved to Africa.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proofs, of which you
have zero..extraordinary or not.
10 mya apes were like orangutans.
...
Mario:
10 mya apes were like orangutans.
:-D
10 Ma (after the Mesopotamian Seaway closure c 14 Ma):
there were
- hominids-dryopiths in swamp forests around the Tethys-sea (now +-Med.Sea) + rivers + islands + incipient Red Sea (Gorilla-Homo-Pan LCAs),
- pongids-sivapiths in swamp forests along northern Ind.Ocean coasts + rivers, now orangutans,
e.g.
- https://www.gondwanatalks.com/l/the-waterside-hypothesis-wading-led-to-upright-walking-in-early-humans/
- David Attenborough https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/b07v2ysg
- google "aquarboreal"
How do you think, I "have zero proofs"?
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
How do you think, I "have zero proofs"?
You're spewing ideas for things which don't exist. Take your
use of fire, for example, some 10 million years ago?
On 11.9.2023. 14:57, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
How do you think, I "have zero proofs"?
You're spewing ideas for things which don't exist. Take your
use of fire, for example, some 10 million years ago?
- fire changed the environment on mass scale, starting at 9.7 mya. This
is called 'Vallesian crisis'.
- this extincted all the Miocene hominoids except our ancestors. This
would say that our ancestors thrived by this development.
- wherever humans first time emerged, the same thing happened,
Australia, Siberia, Americas, always the same pattern, directly linked
to us.
- the only other source of fire can be climate, but climate cannot be because:
- the change is too patchy for it, climate works on the whole area, it doesn't work in a patchy way
- much more important, in the middle of the affected area (the
whole Mediterranean coast) it was Tusco-Sardinian island, completely unaffected by this. Only when this island touched mainland it
immediately became affected. This means that the change goes on foot,
not by air.
- humans eat meat, but they cannot eat meat if it isn't prepared on fire
- humans live in symbiosis with fire in every way
- the technique called fire-stick farming is extremely beneficial for
humans
- eating food prepared on fire is inefficient, if an animal can eat that
food any other way, it will do it. Also, it is dangerous, because it
relieves your position. If an animal *can* eat any other way, it will do
it. So, we always lived that way.
Now, it all depends on how smart you are. Everything points that this is the work of humans. Of course, depends on your view, it
also may seem to you that this is the work of God, or NLO.
- fire changed the environment on mass scale, starting at 9.7 mya.
This is called 'Vallesian crisis'.
- this extincted all the Miocene hominoids except our
ancestors.
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
- fire changed the environment on mass scale, starting at 9.7 mya.
I'm pretty sure that fire wasn't invented before 9.6 million years
ago. Before that they had to use warm toast. Very warm. "Hot"
even. Like, wicked hot & stuff.
This is called 'Vallesian crisis'.
It was cooler and thus drier, which might explain your magical
fires quite adequately... especially in comparison to your ideas.
It seems to be associated with the extinction of any potential
ancestors in Europe.
The Late Miocene is when Yellowstone exploded, by the by,
which would have been a global catastrophe, with long term
cooling in the northern hemisphere.
The Younger Dryas cooling, for example, lasted over a
thousand years.
- this extincted all the Miocene hominoids except our
ancestors.
I've already talked about this quite extensively.
The coast is far more desirable than is inland, after
such a catastrophe, and the closer to the equator the
better. The southern hemisphere recovers a lot quicker
than the northern.
Europe was not where you wanted to be.
On 12.9.2023. 7:42, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
- fire changed the environment on mass scale, starting at 9.7 mya.
I'm pretty sure that fire wasn't invented before 9.6 million years
ago. Before that they had to use warm toast. Very warm. "Hot"
even. Like, wicked hot & stuff.
This is called 'Vallesian crisis'.
It was cooler and thus drier, which might explain your magical
fires quite adequately... especially in comparison to your ideas.
It seems to be associated with the extinction of any potential
ancestors in Europe.
The Late Miocene is when Yellowstone exploded, by the by,
which would have been a global catastrophe, with long term
cooling in the northern hemisphere.
The Younger Dryas cooling, for example, lasted over a
thousand years.
- this extincted all the Miocene hominoids except our
ancestors.
I've already talked about this quite extensively.
The coast is far more desirable than is inland, after
such a catastrophe, and the closer to the equator the
better. The southern hemisphere recovers a lot quicker
than the northern.
Europe was not where you wanted to be.
I will not respond to this garbage. How would it be for you to
stop dreaming and start actually reading something. My pension is only
850 euros ($ 900), so I cannot afford books anymore, but you should have enough money.
Oops, 'NLO' is Croatian for 'UFO', :) .
To be a bit clearer. When somebody talks about Vallesian crisis (or absolutely anything else, any bloody subject), don't enter the
discussion if you don't know ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING about it
"In the African savanna, animals that preferentially forage in
recently burned areas include savanna chimpanzees (a variety of Pan troglodytes verus), vervet monkeys (Cercopithecus aethiops)..." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_of_fire_by_early_humans#Control_of_fire
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
"In the African savanna, animals that preferentially forage in
recently burned areas include savanna chimpanzees (a variety of Pan
troglodytes verus), vervet monkeys (Cercopithecus aethiops)..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_of_fire_by_early_humans#Control_of_fire
So does that mean Chimps only ever evolved AFTER Homo mastered
the use of fire?
Ground foraging could be a source of selective pressure on knuckle
walking.
One defining characteristic of dinosaurs, for example, is that their
legs are under their body, like a horse of cow. But there are a few,
such as the triceratops, whose front legs are splayed out lizard like.
This is believed to be an adaptation to ground foraging.
One defining characteristic of dinosaurs, for example, is that their
legs are under their body, like a horse of cow. But there are a few,
such as the triceratops, whose front legs are splayed out lizard like.
This is believed to be an adaptation to ground foraging.
Wrong
It won't help, you're a lost cause but, the savanna is the worst
at supporting Chimps. They have the lowest population
density of any Chimps.
I am talking about humans, not chimps.
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
I am talking about humans, not chimps.
You were talking about 10 million years ago. If you think
that means humans then perhaps thinking isn't your thing.
Try something else.
First thing, we have a bipedal creature that pretty much resembles
humans, 11.6 mya (Danuvius).
The second thing, we *don't* have chimps 10 mya, chimps are the new development, the original ape was more like humans than like chimps.
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
First thing, we have a bipedal creature that pretty much resembles
humans, 11.6 mya (Danuvius).
Wiki calls them an Ape, which is simply not true.
The second thing, we *don't* have chimps 10 mya, chimps are the new
development, the original ape was more like humans than like chimps.
No. Apes are secondarily knuckle walkers.
I am fully aware of the ideas circulating on Europe being the origins of bipedalism. There's some good arguments, but our ancestors didn't
come from any inland group.
Danuvius even has human-like S-curvature of backbone.
We are also apes
I am fully aware of the ideas circulating on Europe being the origins of bipedalism. There's some good arguments, but our ancestors didn't
come from any inland group.
Australopithecus weren't our ancestors but our "bros" (relatives, :)
). We separated from Australopithecus 8 mya (I am correcting my dates)
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
Danuvius even has human-like S-curvature of backbone.
I think the good Doctor is correct, Apes probably arose in
some island habitat. It's a known driver of evolution:
Isolation.
You also get "The Founder Effect" going.
Insular Gigantism.
We are also apes
In which case, Chimps are not. The common ancestor, their
ancestor was an upright walker (not a knuckle walker) that
had a hand more like our own than a Chimps.
So they evolved from us, not the other way around.
Which is why statements like "Humans are Apes" is to stupid.
These distinctions don't exist in nature. It's a convention, and
one that can be changed tomorrow.
I am fully aware of the ideas circulating on Europe being the origins of >>> bipedalism. There's some good arguments, but our ancestors didn't
come from any inland group.
Australopithecus weren't our ancestors but our "bros" (relatives, :)
Possibly a child species.
). We separated from Australopithecus 8 mya (I am correcting my dates)
More recent, I would argue.
You're talking to someone who places our divergence with Chimps
at 3.7 million years ago.
I think the good Doctor is correct, Apes probably arose in
some island habitat. It's a known driver of evolution:
Isolation.
You also get "The Founder Effect" going.
Insular Gigantism.
Ah, I see, the bag of magic, this is where magic happens. You know
what, I think that every species arose on some island. Either that, or
UFO was involved.
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
I think the good Doctor is correct, Apes probably arose in
some island habitat. It's a known driver of evolution:
Isolation.
You also get "The Founder Effect" going.
Insular Gigantism.
Ah, I see, the bag of magic, this is where magic happens. You know
what, I think that every species arose on some island. Either that, or
UFO was involved.
if you want to look ever so slightly less insane, you might want to
avoid referring to isolation and insular gigantism as "Magic" and
equating them to UFOs. Especially when you propose imaginary
humans running around 10 million years ago setting pigs on fire.
If your nurse is handy, have her assist you in a Google search on
"Founder Effect." Read some cites. And actually read them; don't
just move your lips while staring at the screen.
I don't
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
I don't
...have a clue?
Look. isolation is a known engine of evolution, running
around setting pigs on fire is not.
Again, very superficial thinking.
Primum Sapienti wrote:
One defining characteristic of dinosaurs, for example, is that their
legs are under their body, like a horse of cow. But there are a few,
such as the triceratops, whose front legs are splayed out lizard like.
This is believed to be an adaptation to ground foraging.
Wrong
It's not wrong at all, you spazz.
From your own cite:
https://scitechdaily.com/images/Triceratops-Had-Upright-Forelimbs.jpg?ezimgfmt=ng:webp/ngcb2\
Compare the legs to that of an elephant or a hippo. No, they
are not in similar positions at all.
Oo! What about a rhino?
https://www.alexflemingart.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Photo_1624454402979.jpg
No. You struck out there, too. Nobody is surprised.
From your own cite:
https://scitechdaily.com/images/Triceratops-Had-Upright-Forelimbs.jpg?ezimgfmt=ng:webp/ngcb2\
The image has two parts - the top part is correct, the bottom
is not (being the old interpretation)
Compare the legs to that of an elephant or a hippo. No, they
are not in similar positions at all.
The triceratops legs are underneath the body.
Primum Sapienti wrote:
From your own cite:
https://scitechdaily.com/images/Triceratops-Had-Upright-Forelimbs.jpg?ezimgfmt=ng:webp/ngcb2\
The image has two parts - the top part is correct, the bottom
is not (being the old interpretation)
In neither are the legs under the body.
Rhino:
https://www.alexflemingart.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Photo_1624454402979.jpg
Under the body.
The alternative reconstruction -- not fact, just a proposed
alternative -- has them less splade out but none the less
NOT under the body.
Compare the legs to that of an elephant or a hippo. No, they
are not in similar positions at all.
The triceratops legs are underneath the body.
Of course they're not. Doubling down on your stupidity just
doubles the stupidity. Again, compare them to elephants,
Rhinos or even Sauropod dinosaurs.
NOT the same at all.
Sprawling legs are a reptilian characteristic. Dinosaurs
were not reptiles.
On 8.9.2023. 2:06, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
"In the African savanna, animals that preferentially forage in
recently burned areas include savanna chimpanzees (a variety of Pan
troglodytes verus), vervet monkeys (Cercopithecus aethiops)..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_of_fire_by_early_humans#Control_of_fire
So does that mean Chimps only ever evolved AFTER Homo mastered
the use of fire?
Ground foraging could be a source of selective pressure on knuckle walking.
One defining characteristic of dinosaurs, for example, is that their
legs are under their body, like a horse of cow. But there are a few,
such as the triceratops, whose front legs are splayed out lizard like. This is believed to be an adaptation to ground foraging.
You make an interesting argument: Humans didn't force the
evolution of Chimps & Gorillas by driving them extinct everywhere
but the forest, we invented them by setting fires...
Talk about this idea of yours more, thank you.
Congratulations, you got it right.
10 mya apes were like orangutans.
The whole world was forest, most of
the life existed up there, in the canopy, and there the main animals
were apes. There was some life down there, on the ground, with great
sense of smell, like pigs, who ate whatever drops from above (like, ape
eats some fruit, but fruit drops from his hand, and pigs eat this), or scavengers with who ate corpses of animals that died in canopy, and some browsing ungulates, who browsed tree barks, dogs who chased ungulates,
and cats who climbed the trees and ate primates (like clouded leopard). There were also elephants, who probably evolved in mangroves, but later
they moved inland by making "elephant highways". Elephant highways are "roads" through jungle made by elephants by cutting trees, and thus
allowed sunshine to reach the ground, the next time elephants pass on
this road it would be a lot of young vegetation on it, so they would eat those, and thus maintain the highway. Other than that there wasn't vegetation on the ground, because sunshine couldn't reach it. Except, of course, when some tree dies. Then starts a race for another tree seed to take its place.
Then came humans, who started to burn pig nests, and trees on which
apes were. For example, orangutan cannot easily cross from tree to tree.
He has to climb all the way to the top, swing the top until reaching
another tree, this is the only way for orangutan to cross from one tree
to another. This is why, when loggers come to cut the tree, if orangutan
is on that tree he falls down along with the tree and dies.
So, we were burning those trees that orangutans were on, and ate all
the apes around, except, of course, in areas where you have so huge precipitation that you cannot burn trees (this is why orangutans are
still alive). Possibly some lesser apes, who could move from tree to
tree, developed their brachiation then (like gibbons).
Well, it looks like we did better job in Africa than in SE Asia,
because in Africa we actually forced some apes to adapt to ground
living. Those apes were forced to run on all fours, so they used hand knuckles for it. Because their fingers were like hooks, stiff hooks, so
they couldn't extend them anymore (plantigradly, like baboons), they remained hooked.
Op vrijdag 8 september 2023 om 05:16:10 UTC+2 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
On 8.9.2023. 2:06, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
"In the African savanna, animals that preferentially forage in
recently burned areas include savanna chimpanzees (a variety of Pan
troglodytes verus), vervet monkeys (Cercopithecus aethiops)..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_of_fire_by_early_humans#Control_of_fire
So does that mean Chimps only ever evolved AFTER Homo mastered
the use of fire?
Ground foraging could be a source of selective pressure on knuckle
walking.
One defining characteristic of dinosaurs, for example, is that their
legs are under their body, like a horse of cow. But there are a few,
such as the triceratops, whose front legs are splayed out lizard like.
This is believed to be an adaptation to ground foraging.
You make an interesting argument: Humans didn't force the
evolution of Chimps & Gorillas by driving them extinct everywhere
but the forest, we invented them by setting fires...
Talk about this idea of yours more, thank you.
Congratulations, you got it right.
10 mya apes were like orangutans.
:-D
No, Mario, they were "aquarboreal" (google), probably more like bonobos than like orangs.
Early-Miocene Hominoidea already waded bipedally in swamp/mangrove/coastal forests, feeding on tree-fruits, mangrove oysters etc., climbing arms overhead in the branches above the water.
1) c 20 Ma, hylobatids followed the S.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts -> SE.Asia,
2) c 15 Ma, pongids followed: did they force hylobatids higher into the trees, becoming smaller & brachiating?
3) c 5 Ma, Pliocene Homo followed (humans lack African Pliocene retroviral DNA, e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11):
did pongids force our ancestors deeper into the water, diving for shellfish?? Independent indications Indonesian H.erectus were semi-aquatic early-Pleist., e.g.
• atypical tooth-wear caused by "sand & oral processing of marine mollusks", Towle cs 2022 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.24500
• erectus s.s. fossilized in coastal sediments, e.g. Mojokerto: barnacles + corals, Trinil: Pseudodon + Elongaria edible shellfish, Sangiran-17: "brackish marsh near the coast".
• Stephen Munro discovered sea-shell engravings made by H.erectus, Joordens cs 2015 Nature 518:228-231
• ear exostoses (H.erectus & H.neand.) = years of colder water irrigation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5696936/
• pachy-osteo-sclerosis = slow+shallow-diving tetrapods (de Buffrénil cs 2010 J.Mamm.Evol.17:101-120), e.g. erectus’ parietal bone is 2x as thick as in gorillas.
• brain size in erectus (2x apes/australopiths) = aquatic foods, e.g. DHA docosahexaenoic acid in shellfish… cf. Odontocetes, Pinnipedia, sea-otter.
• erectus' descendants/relatives colonized islands far oversea: Flores & Luzon 67 ka, https://www.academia.edu/36193382/Coastal_Dispersal_of_Pleistocene_Homo_2018
• Homo’s stone tool use & dexterity = molluscivory cf. sea-otters. https://www.gondwanatalks.com/l/the-waterside-hypothesis-wading-led-to-upright-walking-in-early-humans/
:-)
On 1.11.2023. 15:02, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
Op vrijdag 8 september 2023 om 05:16:10 UTC+2 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
On 8.9.2023. 2:06, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
"In the African savanna, animals that preferentially forage in
recently burned areas include savanna chimpanzees (a variety of Pan >>>> troglodytes verus), vervet monkeys (Cercopithecus aethiops)..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_of_fire_by_early_humans#Control_of_fire
So does that mean Chimps only ever evolved AFTER Homo mastered
the use of fire?
Ground foraging could be a source of selective pressure on knuckle
walking.
One defining characteristic of dinosaurs, for example, is that their
legs are under their body, like a horse of cow. But there are a few,
such as the triceratops, whose front legs are splayed out lizard like. >>> This is believed to be an adaptation to ground foraging.
You make an interesting argument: Humans didn't force the
evolution of Chimps & Gorillas by driving them extinct everywhere
but the forest, we invented them by setting fires...
Talk about this idea of yours more, thank you.
Congratulations, you got it right.
10 mya apes were like orangutans.
:-D No, Mario, they were "aquarboreal" (google), probably more like bonobos than like orangs.
Early-Miocene Hominoidea already waded bipedally in swamp/mangrove/coastal forests, feeding on tree-fruits, mangrove oysters etc., climbing arms overhead in the branches above the water.
1) c 20 Ma, hylobatids followed the S.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts -> SE.Asia, 2) c 15 Ma, pongids followed: did they force hylobatids higher into the trees, becoming smaller & brachiating?
3) c 5 Ma, Pliocene Homo followed (humans lack African Pliocene retroviral DNA, e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11):
did pongids force our ancestors deeper into the water, diving for shellfish??
Independent indications Indonesian H.erectus were semi-aquatic early-Pleist., e.g.
• atypical tooth-wear caused by "sand & oral processing of marine mollusks", Towle cs 2022 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.24500
• erectus s.s. fossilized in coastal sediments, e.g. Mojokerto: barnacles + corals, Trinil: Pseudodon + Elongaria edible shellfish, Sangiran-17: "brackish marsh near the coast".
• Stephen Munro discovered sea-shell engravings made by H.erectus, Joordens cs 2015 Nature 518:228-231
• ear exostoses (H.erectus & H.neand.) = years of colder water irrigation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5696936/
• pachy-osteo-sclerosis = slow+shallow-diving tetrapods (de Buffrénil cs 2010 J.Mamm.Evol.17:101-120), e.g. erectus’ parietal bone is 2x as thick as in gorillas.
• brain size in erectus (2x apes/australopiths) = aquatic foods, e.g. DHA docosahexaenoic acid in shellfish… cf. Odontocetes, Pinnipedia, sea-otter.
• erectus' descendants/relatives colonized islands far oversea: Flores & Luzon 67 ka, https://www.academia.edu/36193382/Coastal_Dispersal_of_Pleistocene_Homo_2018
• Homo’s stone tool use & dexterity = molluscivory cf. sea-otters. https://www.gondwanatalks.com/l/the-waterside-hypothesis-wading-led-to-upright-walking-in-early-humans/ :-)
Your timeline is all wrong, we have Danuvius 11.6 mya.
Op woensdag 1 november 2023 om 22:49:31 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
On 1.11.2023. 15:02, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
Op vrijdag 8 september 2023 om 05:16:10 UTC+2 schreef Mario Petrinovic: >>>> On 8.9.2023. 2:06, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
"In the African savanna, animals that preferentially forage in
recently burned areas include savanna chimpanzees (a variety of Pan >>>>>> troglodytes verus), vervet monkeys (Cercopithecus aethiops)..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_of_fire_by_early_humans#Control_of_fire
So does that mean Chimps only ever evolved AFTER Homo mastered
the use of fire?
Ground foraging could be a source of selective pressure on knuckle
walking.
One defining characteristic of dinosaurs, for example, is that their >>>>> legs are under their body, like a horse of cow. But there are a few, >>>>> such as the triceratops, whose front legs are splayed out lizard like. >>>>> This is believed to be an adaptation to ground foraging.
You make an interesting argument: Humans didn't force the
evolution of Chimps & Gorillas by driving them extinct everywhere
but the forest, we invented them by setting fires...
Talk about this idea of yours more, thank you.
Congratulations, you got it right.
10 mya apes were like orangutans.
:-D No, Mario, they were "aquarboreal" (google), probably more like bonobos than like orangs.
Early-Miocene Hominoidea already waded bipedally in swamp/mangrove/coastal forests, feeding on tree-fruits, mangrove oysters etc., climbing arms overhead in the branches above the water.
1) c 20 Ma, hylobatids followed the S.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts -> SE.Asia, >>> 2) c 15 Ma, pongids followed: did they force hylobatids higher into the trees, becoming smaller & brachiating?
3) c 5 Ma, Pliocene Homo followed (humans lack African Pliocene retroviral DNA, e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11):
did pongids force our ancestors deeper into the water, diving for shellfish??
Independent indications Indonesian H.erectus were semi-aquatic early-Pleist., e.g.
• atypical tooth-wear caused by "sand & oral processing of marine mollusks", Towle cs 2022 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.24500
• erectus s.s. fossilized in coastal sediments, e.g. Mojokerto: barnacles + corals, Trinil: Pseudodon + Elongaria edible shellfish, Sangiran-17: "brackish marsh near the coast".
• Stephen Munro discovered sea-shell engravings made by H.erectus, Joordens cs 2015 Nature 518:228-231
• ear exostoses (H.erectus & H.neand.) = years of colder water irrigation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5696936/
• pachy-osteo-sclerosis = slow+shallow-diving tetrapods (de Buffrénil cs 2010 J.Mamm.Evol.17:101-120), e.g. erectus’ parietal bone is 2x as thick as in gorillas.
• brain size in erectus (2x apes/australopiths) = aquatic foods, e.g. DHA docosahexaenoic acid in shellfish… cf. Odontocetes, Pinnipedia, sea-otter.
• erectus' descendants/relatives colonized islands far oversea: Flores & Luzon 67 ka, https://www.academia.edu/36193382/Coastal_Dispersal_of_Pleistocene_Homo_2018
• Homo’s stone tool use & dexterity = molluscivory cf. sea-otters.
https://www.gondwanatalks.com/l/the-waterside-hypothesis-wading-led-to-upright-walking-in-early-humans/ :-)
Your timeline is all wrong, we have Danuvius 11.6 mya.
??
Yes, of vourse:
Danuvius is one of the many many Miocene Hominoidea along coasts->rivers: aquarboreal (or ex-aquarboreal):
Wiki:
Danuvius guggenmosi is an extinct species of gr.ape 11.6 Ma, mid-late-Miocene S-Germany ... probably a woodland + a seasonal climate.
1 male spm was estimated c 31 kg, 2 females 17 & 19 kg.
It is the first-discovered late-Miocene gr.ape with preserved long bones, which could be used to reconstruct the limb anatomy & locomotion.
Discoverer Madelaine Böhme: Danuvius had adaptations for suspensory behavior & bipedalism:
Danuvius thus had a method of locomotion unlike any previously known ape called "extended limb clambering", walking directly along tree-branches + using arms for suspending itself.
The human/ape LCA possibly had a similar method of locomotion.
But Scott Williams & others say: the fragmentary remains do not differ enough from other fossil apes to provide such a clue to the origins of BPism.
IOW, Danuvius was one of the many Miocene aquarboreal Hominoidea:
wading bipedally + vertical climbing in the branches above the swamps = BPism + suspenson. :-)
Early-Miocene Hominoidea already waded bipedally in in N-Tethys Ocean mangroves, feeding on tree-fruits, mangrove oysters etc.,
they climbed vertically, arms overhead, in the branches above the water:
1) c 20 Ma, hylobatids followed the S.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts -> SE.Asia,
2) c 15 Ma, the Mesopotamian Seaway closure split pongids East (N.Ind.Ocean coazts) & hominids West (Medit.Sea -> Red Sea coasts):
pongids followed hylobatids: did they force hylobatids higher into the trees, becoming smaller & brachiating?
3) c 5 Ma, the Red Sea opened into the Gulf: Pan went right -> E.Afr.coast -> southern Rift -> Transvaal -> Au.africanus->Robustus etc.
Pliocene Homo went left (humans lack African Pliocene retroviral DNA, e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11): -> S.Asian coasts -> Java Mojokerto, Sangiran etc.etc.
On 2.11.2023. 20:42, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
Op woensdag 1 november 2023 om 22:49:31 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
On 1.11.2023. 15:02, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
Op vrijdag 8 september 2023 om 05:16:10 UTC+2 schreef Mario Petrinovic: >>>>> On 8.9.2023. 2:06, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
"In the African savanna, animals that preferentially forage in
recently burned areas include savanna chimpanzees (a variety of Pan >>>>>>> troglodytes verus), vervet monkeys (Cercopithecus aethiops)..."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Control_of_fire_by_early_humans#Control_of_fire
So does that mean Chimps only ever evolved AFTER Homo mastered
the use of fire?
Ground foraging could be a source of selective pressure on knuckle >>>>>> walking.
One defining characteristic of dinosaurs, for example, is that their >>>>>> legs are under their body, like a horse of cow. But there are a few, >>>>>> such as the triceratops, whose front legs are splayed out lizard
like.
This is believed to be an adaptation to ground foraging.
You make an interesting argument: Humans didn't force the
evolution of Chimps & Gorillas by driving them extinct everywhere
but the forest, we invented them by setting fires...
Talk about this idea of yours more, thank you.
Congratulations, you got it right.
10 mya apes were like orangutans.
:-D No, Mario, they were "aquarboreal" (google), probably more
like bonobos than like orangs.
Early-Miocene Hominoidea already waded bipedally in
swamp/mangrove/coastal forests, feeding on tree-fruits, mangrove
oysters etc., climbing arms overhead in the branches above the water.
1) c 20 Ma, hylobatids followed the S.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts ->
SE.Asia,
2) c 15 Ma, pongids followed: did they force hylobatids higher into
the trees, becoming smaller & brachiating?
3) c 5 Ma, Pliocene Homo followed (humans lack African Pliocene
retroviral DNA, e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11):
did pongids force our ancestors deeper into the water, diving for
shellfish??
Independent indications Indonesian H.erectus were semi-aquatic
early-Pleist., e.g.
• atypical tooth-wear caused by "sand & oral processing of marine
mollusks", Towle cs 2022
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.24500
• erectus s.s. fossilized in coastal sediments, e.g. Mojokerto:
barnacles + corals, Trinil: Pseudodon + Elongaria edible shellfish,
Sangiran-17: "brackish marsh near the coast".
• Stephen Munro discovered sea-shell engravings made by H.erectus,
Joordens cs 2015 Nature 518:228-231
• ear exostoses (H.erectus & H.neand.) = years of colder water
irrigation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5696936/
• pachy-osteo-sclerosis = slow+shallow-diving tetrapods (de
Buffrénil cs 2010 J.Mamm.Evol.17:101-120), e.g. erectus’ parietal
bone is 2x as thick as in gorillas.
• brain size in erectus (2x apes/australopiths) = aquatic foods,
e.g. DHA docosahexaenoic acid in shellfish… cf. Odontocetes,
Pinnipedia, sea-otter.
• erectus' descendants/relatives colonized islands far oversea:
Flores & Luzon 67 ka,
https://www.academia.edu/36193382/Coastal_Dispersal_of_Pleistocene_Homo_2018
• Homo’s stone tool use & dexterity = molluscivory cf. sea-otters. >>>> https://www.gondwanatalks.com/l/the-waterside-hypothesis-wading-led-to-upright-walking-in-early-humans/ :-)
Your timeline is all wrong, we have Danuvius 11.6 mya.
??
Yes, of vourse:
Danuvius is one of the many many Miocene Hominoidea along
coasts->rivers: aquarboreal (or ex-aquarboreal):
Wiki:
Danuvius guggenmosi is an extinct species of gr.ape 11.6 Ma,
mid-late-Miocene S-Germany ... probably a woodland + a seasonal climate.
1 male spm was estimated c 31 kg, 2 females 17 & 19 kg.
It is the first-discovered late-Miocene gr.ape with preserved long
bones, which could be used to reconstruct the limb anatomy & locomotion.
Discoverer Madelaine Böhme: Danuvius had adaptations for suspensory
behavior & bipedalism:
Danuvius thus had a method of locomotion unlike any previously known
ape called "extended limb clambering", walking directly along
tree-branches + using arms for suspending itself.
The human/ape LCA possibly had a similar method of locomotion.
But Scott Williams & others say: the fragmentary remains do not differ
enough from other fossil apes to provide such a clue to the origins of
BPism.
IOW, Danuvius was one of the many Miocene aquarboreal Hominoidea:
wading bipedally + vertical climbing in the branches above the swamps
= BPism + suspenson. :-)
Early-Miocene Hominoidea already waded bipedally in in N-Tethys Ocean
mangroves, feeding on tree-fruits, mangrove oysters etc.,
they climbed vertically, arms overhead, in the branches above the water:
1) c 20 Ma, hylobatids followed the S.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts -> SE.Asia,
2) c 15 Ma, the Mesopotamian Seaway closure split pongids East
(N.Ind.Ocean coazts) & hominids West (Medit.Sea -> Red Sea coasts):
pongids followed hylobatids: did they force hylobatids higher into the
trees, becoming smaller & brachiating?
3) c 5 Ma, the Red Sea opened into the Gulf: Pan went right ->
E.Afr.coast -> southern Rift -> Transvaal -> Au.africanus->Robustus etc.
Pliocene Homo went left (humans lack African Pliocene retroviral DNA,
e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11): -> S.Asian coasts -> Java
Mojokerto, Sangiran etc.etc.
This was, rather, the remnant of Paratethys Sea.
Danuvius was one of the many Miocene aquarboreal Hominoidea:
wading bipedally + vertical climbing in the branches above the swamps
= BPism + suspenson. :-)
Early-Miocene Hominoidea already waded bipedally in in N-Tethys Ocean
mangroves, feeding on tree-fruits, mangrove oysters etc.,
they climbed vertically, arms overhead, in the branches above the water: >> 1) c 20 Ma, hylobatids followed the S.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts -> SE.Asia, >> 2) c 15 Ma, the Mesopotamian Seaway Closure split pongids East
(N.Ind.Ocean coasts) & hominids West (Medit.Sea -> Red Sea coasts):
pongids followed hylobatids: did they force hylobatids higher into the
trees, becoming smaller & brachiating?
3) c 5 Ma, the Red Sea opened into the Gulf: Pan went right ->
E.Afr.coast -> southern Rift -> Transvaal -> Au.africanus->robustus etc. >> Pliocene Homo went left (humans lack African Pliocene retroviral DNA,
e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11) -> S.Asian coasts -> Java
Mojokerto, Sangiran etc.etc.
This was, rather, the remnant of Paratethys Sea.
Actually, again, this species happen right at the faunal turnover. At
the locality, 11.6 mya is fauna of the old type, while just slightly
younger layers, 11.5 mya, have the new type of fauna with Hipparionine horses, which should, actually, belong to much younger Mammalian Neogene zone MN9 (which is Vallesian). Exactly the emergence of Hipparionine
horses is tied to the faunal turnover, or Vallesian crisis. I am
claiming that this Vallesian crisis is caused by our bipedal ancestors burning forest, and we do have indications of forest fires on the locality. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerschmiede_clay_pit#Biostratigraphy_and_Paleoecology
Op vrijdag 3 november 2023 om 06:12:09 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
...
Danuvius was one of the many Miocene aquarboreal Hominoidea:
wading bipedally + vertical climbing in the branches above the swamps
= BPism + suspenson. :-)
Early-Miocene Hominoidea already waded bipedally in in N-Tethys Ocean
mangroves, feeding on tree-fruits, mangrove oysters etc.,
they climbed vertically, arms overhead, in the branches above the water: >>>> 1) c 20 Ma, hylobatids followed the S.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts -> SE.Asia, >>>> 2) c 15 Ma, the Mesopotamian Seaway Closure split pongids East
(N.Ind.Ocean coasts) & hominids West (Medit.Sea -> Red Sea coasts):
pongids followed hylobatids: did they force hylobatids higher into the >>>> trees, becoming smaller & brachiating?
3) c 5 Ma, the Red Sea opened into the Gulf: Pan went right ->
E.Afr.coast -> southern Rift -> Transvaal -> Au.africanus->robustus etc. >>>> Pliocene Homo went left (humans lack African Pliocene retroviral DNA,
e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11) -> S.Asian coasts -> Java
Mojokerto, Sangiran etc.etc.
This was, rather, the remnant of Paratethys Sea.
Actually, again, this species happen right at the faunal turnover. At
the locality, 11.6 mya is fauna of the old type, while just slightly
younger layers, 11.5 mya, have the new type of fauna with Hipparionine
horses, which should, actually, belong to much younger Mammalian Neogene
zone MN9 (which is Vallesian). Exactly the emergence of Hipparionine
horses is tied to the faunal turnover, or Vallesian crisis. I am
claiming that this Vallesian crisis is caused by our bipedal ancestors
burning forest, and we do have indications of forest fires on the locality. >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerschmiede_clay_pit#Biostratigraphy_and_Paleoecology
:-DDD
Our Miocene ancestors were aquarboreal apes, Mario, vertical waders-climbers in mangroves.
Probably only early-Pleistocene, Homo became predom.shellfish divers along the Ind.Ocean, e.g.
• archaic Homo's atypical tooth-wear = "sand and oral processing of marine mollusks" https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.24500
• erectus s.s. fossilized amid barnacles + corals (Mojokerto), edible shellfish Pseudodon + Elongaria (Trinil), "brackish marsh near the coast" (Sangiran-17),
• Stephen Munro described sea-shell engravings made by H.erectus https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25470048/
• ear exostoses (erectus & neand.) = years of colder water irrigation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5696936/
• pachy-osteo-sclerosis = slow+shallow-diving (de Buffrénil cs 2010 J.Mamm.Evol.17:101-120), e.g. erectus’ parietal bone is 2x as thick as in gorillas.
• brain size in erectus (2x apes/apiths) = aquatic foods, e.g. DHA docosahexaenoic acid in shellfish… cf. Odontocetes, Pinnipedia, Enhydra.
• erectus' descendants/relatives colonized islands far oversea: Flores, Luzon https://www.academia.edu/36193382/Coastal_Dispersal_of_Pleistocene_Homo_2018
• stone tool use & dexterity = molluscivory, e.g. sea-otters:
fire use was still later: sparks of stone tool making.
IOW, only *incredibly* imbecilic idiots still believe they descend from African antelope hunters... :-DDD
On 3.11.2023. 11:54, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
Op vrijdag 3 november 2023 om 06:12:09 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
Danuvius was one of the many Miocene aquarboreal Hominoidea:
wading bipedally + vertical climbing in the branches above the swamps >>>> = BPism + suspenson. :-)
Early-Miocene Hominoidea already waded bipedally in in N-Tethys Ocean >>>> mangroves, feeding on tree-fruits, mangrove oysters etc.,
they climbed vertically, arms overhead, in the branches above the water:
1) c 20 Ma, hylobatids followed the S.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts -> SE.Asia,
2) c 15 Ma, the Mesopotamian Seaway Closure split pongids East
(N.Ind.Ocean coasts) & hominids West (Medit.Sea -> Red Sea coasts): >>>> pongids followed hylobatids: did they force hylobatids higher into the >>>> trees, becoming smaller & brachiating?
3) c 5 Ma, the Red Sea opened into the Gulf: Pan went right ->
E.Afr.coast -> southern Rift -> Transvaal -> Au.africanus->robustus etc.
Pliocene Homo went left (humans lack African Pliocene retroviral DNA, >>>> e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11) -> S.Asian coasts -> Java
Mojokerto, Sangiran etc.etc.
This was, rather, the remnant of Paratethys Sea.
Actually, again, this species happen right at the faunal turnover. At
the locality, 11.6 mya is fauna of the old type, while just slightly
younger layers, 11.5 mya, have the new type of fauna with Hipparionine
horses, which should, actually, belong to much younger Mammalian Neogene >> zone MN9 (which is Vallesian). Exactly the emergence of Hipparionine
horses is tied to the faunal turnover, or Vallesian crisis. I am
claiming that this Vallesian crisis is caused by our bipedal ancestors
burning forest, and we do have indications of forest fires on the locality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerschmiede_clay_pit#Biostratigraphy_and_Paleoecology
:-DDD Our Miocene ancestors were aquarboreal apes, Mario, vertical waders-climbers in mangroves.
Probably only early-Pleistocene, Homo became predom.shellfish divers along the Ind.Ocean, e.g.
• archaic Homo's atypical tooth-wear = "sand and oral processing of marine mollusks" https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.24500
• erectus s.s. fossilized amid barnacles + corals (Mojokerto), edible shellfish Pseudodon + Elongaria (Trinil), "brackish marsh near the coast" (Sangiran-17),
• Stephen Munro described sea-shell engravings made by H.erectus https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25470048/
• ear exostoses (erectus & neand.) = years of colder water irrigation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5696936/
• pachy-osteo-sclerosis = slow+shallow-diving (de Buffrénil cs 2010 J.Mamm.Evol.17:101-120), e.g. erectus’ parietal bone is 2x as thick as in gorillas.
• brain size in erectus (2x apes/apiths) = aquatic foods, e.g. DHA docosahexaenoic acid in shellfish… cf. Odontocetes, Pinnipedia, Enhydra.
• erectus' descendants/relatives colonized islands far oversea: Flores, Luzon https://www.academia.edu/36193382/Coastal_Dispersal_of_Pleistocene_Homo_2018
• stone tool use & dexterity = molluscivory, e.g. sea-otters:
fire use was still later: sparks of stone tool making.
IOW, only *incredibly* imbecilic idiots still believe they descend from African antelope hunters... :-DDD
Marc, you have old record:
https://youtu.be/DdTTqDGPEeg?si=jsQyYWyJgnZrC91w
I am
claiming that this Vallesian crisis is caused by our bipedal ancestors burning forest
Op vrijdag 3 november 2023 om 18:41:03 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
On 3.11.2023. 11:54, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
Op vrijdag 3 november 2023 om 06:12:09 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
...
Danuvius was one of the many Miocene aquarboreal Hominoidea:
wading bipedally + vertical climbing in the branches above the swamps >>>>>> = BPism + suspenson. :-)
Early-Miocene Hominoidea already waded bipedally in in N-Tethys Ocean >>>>>> mangroves, feeding on tree-fruits, mangrove oysters etc.,
they climbed vertically, arms overhead, in the branches above the water: >>>>>> 1) c 20 Ma, hylobatids followed the S.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts -> SE.Asia, >>>>>> 2) c 15 Ma, the Mesopotamian Seaway Closure split pongids East
(N.Ind.Ocean coasts) & hominids West (Medit.Sea -> Red Sea coasts): >>>>>> pongids followed hylobatids: did they force hylobatids higher into the >>>>>> trees, becoming smaller & brachiating?
3) c 5 Ma, the Red Sea opened into the Gulf: Pan went right ->
E.Afr.coast -> southern Rift -> Transvaal -> Au.africanus->robustus etc. >>>>>> Pliocene Homo went left (humans lack African Pliocene retroviral DNA, >>>>>> e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11) -> S.Asian coasts -> Java
Mojokerto, Sangiran etc.etc.
This was, rather, the remnant of Paratethys Sea.
Actually, again, this species happen right at the faunal turnover. At
the locality, 11.6 mya is fauna of the old type, while just slightly
younger layers, 11.5 mya, have the new type of fauna with Hipparionine >>>> horses, which should, actually, belong to much younger Mammalian Neogene >>>> zone MN9 (which is Vallesian). Exactly the emergence of Hipparionine
horses is tied to the faunal turnover, or Vallesian crisis. I am
claiming that this Vallesian crisis is caused by our bipedal ancestors >>>> burning forest, and we do have indications of forest fires on the locality.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammerschmiede_clay_pit#Biostratigraphy_and_Paleoecology
:-DDD Our Miocene ancestors were aquarboreal apes, Mario, vertical waders-climbers in mangroves.
Probably only early-Pleistocene, Homo became predom.shellfish divers along the Ind.Ocean, e.g.
• archaic Homo's atypical tooth-wear = "sand and oral processing of marine mollusks" https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.24500
• erectus s.s. fossilized amid barnacles + corals (Mojokerto), edible shellfish Pseudodon + Elongaria (Trinil), "brackish marsh near the coast" (Sangiran-17),
• Stephen Munro described sea-shell engravings made by H.erectus https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25470048/
• ear exostoses (erectus & neand.) = years of colder water irrigation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5696936/
• pachy-osteo-sclerosis = slow+shallow-diving (de Buffrénil cs 2010 J.Mamm.Evol.17:101-120), e.g. erectus’ parietal bone is 2x as thick as in gorillas.
• brain size in erectus (2x apes/apiths) = aquatic foods, e.g. DHA docosahexaenoic acid in shellfish… cf. Odontocetes, Pinnipedia, Enhydra.
• erectus' descendants/relatives colonized islands far oversea: Flores, Luzon https://www.academia.edu/36193382/Coastal_Dispersal_of_Pleistocene_Homo_2018
• stone tool use & dexterity = molluscivory, e.g. sea-otters:
fire use was still later: sparks of stone tool making.
IOW, only *incredibly* imbecilic idiots still believe they descend from African antelope hunters... :-DDD
Marc, you have old record:
https://youtu.be/DdTTqDGPEeg?si=jsQyYWyJgnZrC91w
Yes, Mario, I know: you have no answer... :-D
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
I am
claiming that this Vallesian crisis is caused by our bipedal ancestors
burning forest
Burning pig nests?
What is your evidence?
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
I am
claiming that this Vallesian crisis is caused by our bipedal ancestors >>>> burning forest
Burning pig nests?
What is your evidence?
Burned pig nests.
Cites?
JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
I am
claiming that this Vallesian crisis is caused by our bipedal ancestors
burning forest
Burning pig nests?
What is your evidence?
Burned pig nests.
On 4.11.2023. 5:25, JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
I am
claiming that this Vallesian crisis is caused by our bipedal ancestors >>>> burning forest
Burning pig nests?
What is your evidence?
Burned pig nests.
Cites?
You're stupid.
You're stupid.
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
You're stupid.
Better stupid than psychotic. So, where's a cite?
JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
Better stupid than psychotic. So, where's a cite?
Here
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
Better stupid than psychotic. So, where's a cite?
Here
No, seriously: Produce a cite. Or just admit that you're
crazy and make everything up.
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
Better stupid than psychotic. So, where's a cite?
Here
No, seriously: Produce a cite. Or just admit that you're
crazy and make everything up.
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
Better stupid than psychotic. So, where's a cite?
Here
No, seriously: Produce a cite. Or just admit that you're
crazy and make everything up.
Mario Petrinovic wrote:
JTEM is so reasonable wrote:
Better stupid than psychotic. So, where's a cite?
Here
No, seriously: Produce a cite. Or just admit that you're
crazy and make everything up.
Cite for what? Do you need a cite that Moon exists?
Op zondag 5 november 2023 om 04:24:47 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
Cite for what? Do you need a cite that Moon exists?
??
Mario, Mario, you better try to anwer this:
Early-Pleist.H.erectus on Java frequently dived for shellfish:
- pachyosteosclerosis = shallow-diving
- ear exostoses = chronic colder water
- shell engravings in Dubois collection
- dental wear caused by shellfish
- colonisations of Flores & Luzon
- brain size x2 apes' = DHA in sea-food
- fossilisations amid shellfish
- stone tools & dexterity = sea-otter
- platycephaly = hydrodyn.streamline
- ...
On 5.11.2023. 18:09, Marc Verhaegen wrote:
Op zondag 5 november 2023 om 04:24:47 UTC+1 schreef Mario Petrinovic:
Cite for what? Do you need a cite that Moon exists?
?? Mario, Mario, you better try to anwer this:
Early-Pleist.H.erectus on Java frequently dived for shellfish:
- pachyosteosclerosis = shallow-diving
- ear exostoses = chronic colder water
- shell engravings in Dubois collection
- dental wear caused by shellfish
- colonisations of Flores & Luzon
- brain size x2 apes' = DHA in sea-food
- fossilisations amid shellfish
- stone tools & dexterity = sea-otter
- platycephaly = hydrodyn.streamline ...
As I said, something is terribly wrong with you. Don't you realize
that I support most of what you say? Don't you realize that all this
works better on sea cliffs than on your marshes? Are you that crazy?
Yes, I support most of the things you are saying, and it is *you* who is proving what I am saying, with what you wrote above. All this works on
sea cliffs, don't you see this? A child would be able to see this.
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