Reappraising the palaeobiology of Australopithecus

Abstract

The naming of Australopithecus africanus in 1925, based on the Taung
Child, heralded a new era in human evolutionary studies and turned the attention of the then Eurasian-centric palaeoanthropologists to
Africa, albeit with reluctance. Almost one hundred years later, Africa
is recognized as the cradle of humanity, where the entire evolutionary
history of our lineage prior to two million years ago took place�after
the Homo�Pan split. This Review examines data from diverse sources and
offers a revised depiction of the genus and characterizes its role in
human evolution. For a long time, our knowledge of Australopithecus
came from both A. africanus and Australopithecus afarensis, and the
members of this genus were portrayed as bipedal creatures that did not
use stone tools, with a largely chimpanzee-like cranium, a prognathic
face and a brain slightly larger than that of chimpanzees. Subsequent
field and laboratory discoveries, however, have altered this
portrayal, showing that Australopithecus species were habitual bipeds
but also practised arboreality; that they occasionally used stone
tools to supplement their diet with animal resources; and that their
infants probably depended on adults to a greater extent than what is
seen in apes. The genus gave rise to several taxa, including Homo, but
its direct ancestor remains elusive. In sum, Australopithecus had a
pivotal bridging role in our evolutionary history owing to its
morphological, behavioural and temporal placement between the earliest
archaic putative hominins and later hominins�including the genus Homo.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-023-05957-1

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Pandora wrote:

Reappraising the palaeobiology of Australopithecus

Abstract

The naming of Australopithecus africanus in 1925, based on the Taung
Child, heralded a new era in human evolutionary studies and turned the attention of the then Eurasian-centric palaeoanthropologists to
Africa, albeit with reluctance. Almost one hundred years later, Africa
is recognized as the cradle of humanity, where the entire evolutionary history of our lineage prior to two million years ago took place預fter
the Homo鳳an split.

What you just did here is pinned all your hopes on Australopithecus
being a human ancestor. If it's not, nothing you are claiming here is
even close to accurate.

What's interesting is that for the longest time Australopithecus was
NOT considered an ancestor. And it in all but complete certainty it was
not. It appears AFTER the split and it appears to reside on the Pan
side of the divide, not the human side.

The human hand, for example, is the least derived! The LCA had a
hand that looked like Homo. And the LCA was bipedal. And the LCA
arose from -- descended from -- a group that split from the mother
waterside population, pushed inland and adapted.

The good Doctor's model where they became Chimps is actually
quite logical. If it weren't them precisely, it was something that
looked very much like them...

Personally I see them having radiated out, taken to diverse
environments, including the forests. But the evolution of the
forest group was moderated by interbreeding with other
populations. Eventually though, their siblings on the savanna
and other environments were wiped out, and the forest
adaptations took over.

I think the good Doctor places all this around 5 million years ago
while I say 3.7 million years...




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/716364343858561024

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

netloon:

Reappraising the palaeobiology of Australopithecus
The naming of Australopithecus africanus in 1925, based on the Taung
Child, heralded a new era in human evolutionary studies and turned the attention of the then Eurasian-centric palaeoanthropologists to
Africa, albeit with reluctance. Almost one hundred years later, Africa
is recognized as the cradle of humanity, where the entire evolutionary history of our lineage prior to two million years ago took place

:-DDD

Ridiculous anthropocentric prejudices:
traditional PAs believe they have 100s of fossil "human ancestors" = 1 species, but no fossils of 4 other extant African hominids: P.trogl., P.paniscus, G.gorilla, G.beringei??
Yet there are numerous fossil pongids (sivapiths etc.).
How ridiculous is that?? Pure anthropocentrism.

Early-Miocene hominoids were already BP (google "aquarboreal").
Comparative anatomy leaves no doubt IMO (Hum.Evol.1990, 1994, 1996, 2000):
- E.Afr.apiths afarensis->boisei were fossil relatives of Gorilla,
- S.Afr.apiths africenus->robustus, of Pan:
they evolved in // from late-Pliocene "gracile" to early-Pleist."robust". Pliocene human ancestors were in Asia (retroviral data), along the Ind.Ocean coasts:
H.erectus brain++ (DHA), pachyosteosclerosis (=shallow-diving), shell engravings (google "Joordens Munro" etc.

Concl.: australopiths were fossil relatives of Pan & Gorilla.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Op donderdag 4 mei 2023 om 23:52:22 UTC+2 schreef JTEM is so reasonable:

Pandora wrote:

Reappraising the palaeobiology of Australopithecus
The naming of Australopithecus africanus in 1925, based on the Taung Child, heralded a new era in human evolutionary studies and turned the attention of the then Eurasian-centric palaeoanthropologists to
Africa, albeit with reluctance. Almost one hundred years later, Africa
is recognized as the cradle of humanity, where the entire evolutionary history of our lineage prior to two million years ago took place預fter the Homo鳳an split.

What you just did here is pinned all your hopes on Australopithecus
being a human ancestor. If it's not, nothing you are claiming here is
even close to accurate.
What's interesting is that for the longest time Australopithecus was
NOT considered an ancestor. And it in all but complete certainty it was
not. It appears AFTER the split and it appears to reside on the Pan
side of the divide, not the human side.

Comparative anatomy is clear IMO (our Hum.Evol.papers):
- E.Afr.apiths = fossil Gorilla,
- S.Afr.apiths = fossil Pan,
Pliocene human ancestors = Asia (retroviral data).

(Note: this also implies that Au.africanus was a closer relative of us than of gorillas!)

The human hand, for example, is the least derived! The LCA had a
hand that looked like Homo. And the LCA was bipedal. And the LCA
arose from -- descended from -- a group that split from the mother
waterside population, pushed inland and adapted.

The hominoid LCA (early-Miocene or even late-Oligocene) was already BP:
broad body+thorax+pelvis, no tail, centrally-placed & shortened lumbar spine: they waded upright + clmibed arms overhed in swamp forests,
-humans, gibbons & simangs are still BP,
-orangs evolved BP->fist-walking,
-chimps-bonobos // gorillas BP->knuckle-walking in parallel.

The good Doctor's model where they became Chimps is actually
quite logical. If it weren't them precisely, it was something that
looked very much like them...

My view, google "WHATtalk" next Sunday:
- Gorilla followed the northern Rift swamp forests: afarensis->boisei,
Red Sea opened into Gulf (5.33 Ma? Zanclean mega-flood):
- Homo went left -> S.Asian coast -> early-Pleist.H.erectus (DHA, POS etc.) shallow-diving,
- Pan went right -> E.Afr.coast -> southern Rift swamp forests: africanus->robustus (// Gorilla).

Personally I see them having radiated out, taken to diverse
environments, including the forests. But the evolution of the
forest group was moderated by interbreeding with other
populations. Eventually though, their siblings on the savanna
and other environments were wiped out, and the forest
adaptations took over.
I think the good Doctor places all this around 5 million years ago
while I say 3.7 million years...

HP/Gorilla c 7 Ma,
Homo/Pan c 5 Ma.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Thu, 4 May 2023 15:21:27 -0700 (PDT), "littor...@gmail.com" <littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:

Reappraising the palaeobiology of Australopithecus
The naming of Australopithecus africanus in 1925, based on the Taung
Child, heralded a new era in human evolutionary studies and turned the
attention of the then Eurasian-centric palaeoanthropologists to
Africa, albeit with reluctance. Almost one hundred years later, Africa
is recognized as the cradle of humanity, where the entire evolutionary
history of our lineage prior to two million years ago took place

:-DDD

Ridiculous anthropocentric prejudices:

And yet it appears in one of the oldest and most prestigious
scientific periodicals, Nature. Wow!
You must have lost all faith in the scientific community.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Reappraising the palaeobiology of Australopithecus
The naming of Australopithecus africanus in 1925, based on the Taung
Child, heralded a new era in human evolutionary studies and turned the
attention of the then Eurasian-centric palaeoanthropologists to
Africa, albeit with reluctance. Almost one hundred years later, Africa
is recognized as the cradle of humanity, where the entire evolutionary
history of our lineage prior to two million years ago took place

:-DDD Ridiculous anthropocentric prejudices:

netloon:

And yet it appears in one of the oldest and most prestigious
scientific periodicals, Nature. Wow!
You must have lost all faith in the scientific community.

Not at all, my boy, not at all, e.g.
M.Verhaegen 1987 Nature 325:305-6
"Origin of hominid bipedalism"
:-)
But yes, *sometimes* Nature publishes ridiculous nonsense,
e.g. about your Pliocene ancestors running after antelopes over savannas... :-DDD


Comparative anatomy is clear IMO (our Hum.Evol.papers):
- E.Afr.apiths = fossil Gorilla,
- S.Afr.apiths = fossil Pan
(this also implies that Au.africanus was a closer relative of us than of gorillas):
our Pliocene human ancestors were not even in Africa: retroviral data,
they followed the S-Asian coasts -> Java etc. early-Pleistocene

The hominoid LCA (early-Miocene or even late-Oligocene) was already BP:
broad body+thorax+pelvis, no tail, centrally-placed & shortened lumbar spine: they waded upright + clmibed arms overhed in swamp forests,
-humans, gibbons & simangs are still BP,
-orangs evolved BP->fist-walking,
-chimps-bonobos // gorillas BP->knuckle-walking in parallel.

My view, google "WHATtalk" tomorrow:
- Gorilla followed the northern Rift swamp forests: afarensis->boisei,
Red Sea opened into Gulf (5.33 Ma? Zanclean mega-flood):
- Homo went left -> S.Asian coast -> early-Pleist.H.erectus (DHA, POS etc.) shallow-diving,
- Pan went right -> E.Afr.coast -> southern Rift swamp forests: africanus->robustus (// Gorilla).

HP/Gorilla c 7 Ma,
Homo/Pan c 5 Ma.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

JTEM is so reasonable wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

The Zanclean flood involved the Straits of Gibraltar

It involved the entire globe.

Do the Google on: Zanclean flood +"red sea"

STOP acting like a fraud,

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

littor...@gmail.com wrote:

Op maandag 8 mei 2023 om 12:46:16 UTC+2 schreef JTEM is so reasonable:

netloon:

The Zanclean flood involved the Straits of Gibraltar

It involved the entire globe.
Do the Google on: Zanclean flood +"red sea"
https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/716345593177489408

Yes, I don't know whether the Zanclean mega-flood 5.33 Ma (mill.yrs ago) also opened the Red Sea into the Gulf (Francesca Mansfield), but if so, it could perfectly explain why Homo & Pan split c 5 Ma, see my 2022 book p.299-300:
https://www.gondwanatalks.com/l/the-waterside-hypothesis-wading-led-to-upright-walking-in-early-humans/

The Red Sea has its beginnings in the Eocene. No
wonder AA is kook science.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

JTEM is so reasonable wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

The Zanclean flood involved the Straits of Gibraltar

It involved the entire globe.

Do the Google on: Zanclean flood +"red sea"

STOP acting like a fraud,

Stop being an idiot.

The Zanclean

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood

"The Zanclean flood or Zanclean deluge is a flood
theorized to have refilled the Mediterranean Sea
5.33 million years ago."



The Red Sea has its beginnings in the Eocene

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Sea

"The Red Sea was formed by the Arabian peninsula
being split from the Horn of Africa by movement
of the Red Sea Rift. This split started in the
Eocene and accelerated during the Oligocene."

Tell us when the Eocene was, film boy

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

idiotic kudu runner:

The Red Sea has its beginnings in the Eocene.

Of course: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood
"The Zanclean flood or Zanclean deluge is a flood theorized to have refilled the Med.Sea 5.33 Ma."
The Red Sea has its beginnings in the Eocene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Sea
"The Red Sea was formed by the Arabian peninsula being split from the Horn of Africa by movement of the Red Sea Rift.
This split started in the Eocene, and accelerated during the Oligocene." Late-Miocene hominids s.s.(HPG) lived in Red Sea forests. Gorilla followed the incipient N-Rift->Afar->Lucy etc.
Homo-Pan remained in the Red Sea until the Zanclean mega-flood opened the Red Sea into the Gulf/Aden 5.33 Ma (Francesca Mansfield): the rest is simple, explaining why H & P split:
-Pliocene Pan went right->E.Afr.coast->S-Rift->Transvaal->Taung etc. //Gorilla. -Pliocene Homo went left->S.Asian coast->Java early-Pleist.H.erectus->coastal dispersal incl.Med.Sea etc.
Google e.g. "gondwanatalks verhaegen" & "WHATtalk verhaegen". :-)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

The Zanclean flood involved the Straits of Gibraltar

JTEM:

It involved the entire globe.
Do the Google on: Zanclean flood +"red sea"
STOP acting like a fraud,

idiotic kudu runner:

Stop being an idiot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood
"The Zanclean flood or Zanclean deluge is a flood theorized to have refilled the Med.Sea 5.33 Ma."
The Red Sea has its beginnings in the Eocene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Sea
"The Red Sea was formed by the Arabian peninsula being split from the Horn of Africa by movement of the Red Sea Rift.
This split started in the Eocene, and accelerated during the Oligocene." Late-Miocene hominids s.s.(HPG) lived in Red Sea forests. Gorilla followed the incipient N-Rift->Afar->Lucy etc.
Homo-Pan remained in the Red Sea until the Zanclean mega-flood opened the Red Sea into the Gulf/Aden 5.33 Ma (Francesca Mansfield): the rest is simple:
-Pliocene Pan went right->E.Afr.coast->S-Rift->Transvaal->Taung etc. //Gorilla. -Pliocene Homo went left->S.Asian coast->Java early-Pleist.H.erectus->coastal dispersal->Med.Sea etc.
Google e.g. "gondwanatalks verhaegen" & "WHATtalk verhaegen". :-)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Primum Sapienti wrote:

JTEM is so reasonable wrote:

Do the Google on: Zanclean flood +"red sea"

STOP acting like a fraud,

Stop being

You didn't Google it. Things don't happen in isolation. Our ice age
itself is nothing more than a product of changing how the earth
circulates warmth from the sun. Water is a battery, literally a battery.
It stories energy from the sun. It's only even liquid BECAUSE it has
absorbed so much energy. It's why deserts get so hot in the day: They
are dry. There's no moisture to absorb the energy. And it's also why
they get so freakishly cold at night. They're dry. There's no moisture
to give off energy.

Things don't happen in isolation. Your brain is limited. You have been programmed to grip stupid scenarios, penned in by artificial
parameters. Where you should automatically be trying to slip
everything you hear into a larger, complete picture, you focus like a
laser beam on the tiniest details, pretending that they matter when
they can't. The only thing that matters is if they can be slipped into
the mosaic of history or not.




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/719194335256674305

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Primum Sapienti wrote:

The Red Sea has its beginnings

So either you're arguing that the history of the Mediterranean goes
back no further than the Zanclean flood, or you identified another
flaw in your thinking.




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/719194335256674305

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

JTEM is so reasonable wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

The Zanclean flood involved the Straits of Gibraltar

It involved the entire globe.

Do the Google on: Zanclean flood +"red sea"

STOP acting like a fraud,

The Zanclean flood involved the Straits of Gibraltar

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood

"The Zanclean flood occurred when the Strait of Gibraltar opened."

"Red Sea" not mentioned.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

JTEM is so reasonable wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

Nice review.

Why?

I'm interested in human origins. This doesn't seem relevant.

"the palaeobiology of Australopithecus"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Primum Sapienti wrote:

"the palaeobiology of Australopithecus"

Again, and I'll remind you a few more times because you have
no reading comprehension & retention, your "Cite" assumes
that Australopithecus is a human ancestor. It's not.

It also states a falsehood seeing how the retrovirus data shows
that our ancestors were not in Africa from 3 to four million years
ago.



-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/719746977745797120

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Primum Sapienti wrote:

The Zanclean flood involved the Straits of Gibraltar

Me: These events are global. The implications can't be
limited to the local area. They're too huge.

You: "See, it happened & stuff so yuz wrong."




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/719746977745797120

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

kudu runner:

The Zanclean flood involved the Straits of Gibraltar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood
"The Zanclean flood occurred when the Strait of Gibraltar opened."
"Red Sea" not mentioned.

Sigh: again:
1) again: Francesca Mansfield argued the Zanclean mega-flood (5.33 Ma) also opened the Red Sea into the Gulf/Aden.
2) Whether this is so (exactly 5.33 Ma), or the Red Sea opened 7 or 4 Ma, all it does NOT change the scenario, only the possible date:
- Pan went right = E.Afr.coast -> southern Rift -> Au.africanus->robustus (// Pr.afarensis->boisei in northern Rift)
- Homo went left = S.Asian coast -> e.g. early-Pleist.H.erectus Java google "pachyosteosclerosis"=regularly shallow-diving.
IOW, only incredible imbeciles still believe their Plio-Pleist.ancestors ran after antilopes on Afr.savannas. :-DDD

My 2022 book p.299-300:

Bijlage 16. Hypothese: Platentektoniek en Hominoïde Opdelingen

Diersoorten splitsen in 2 aparte soorten vaak door geografische soortvorming (allopatrische speciatie), in ons geval o.a. door botsende of scheurende continenten?
Een ‘gewone’ continentsnelheid is ~5 cm/jaar, maar Indië dook, en duikt nog, van zuid naar noord onder/tegen Azië met wel ~20 cm/jaar, de Himalaya opstuwend. Toen Indië Azië naderde (~30–25 Ma?), ontstonden daar eerst eiland-bogen (plooien of �
��rimpels’ in de aardkorst) vol lage, hete, natte kustbossen (vgl. bv. Indonesië?). Geleken de Catarrhini die die eilanden bereikten, wat op de huidige Nasalis-Rhinopith. in de mangroves? Eilandbewoners evolueren soms wat speciaal. De oermensapen (
Hominoidea) gingen in die waterbossen tweebenig waden, (google "aquarboreal") soms zwemmen, en klommen, armen omhoog, in de takken boven het water, ze werden groter, kregen een erg breed borstbeen,(sternum) borstkas en bekken, lange armen en benen die
makkelijk op- en zijwaarts bewogen, en een korte, verticale, centraal gelegen lendenwervelzuil, en verloren in het water hun staart (google aquarboreal).
Toen Indië onder Azië drong, verdeelde dat hen in kleine- en grote-mensapen (~20 Ma?), die de Oost-, resp. West-Euraziatische Tethys-oceaankusten volgden. (Splitste de beginnende Himalaya ook de hondapen: slankapen Oost, meerkatten West?)
En verdeelde Mesopotamische Zeewegsluiting later (~15 Ma? Bialik 2019) de grote-mensapen: sivapitheken–pongiden Oost, dryopitheken–hominiden West?
• De pongiden volgden in Zuid-Azië oostwaarts de kustbossen: drongen die ‘oer-orangs’ later de kleine-mensapen (de ‘oergibbons’) hoger de bomen in?
• De hominiden volgden de Tethys-zee, thans de Middellandse Zee: o.a. de tweebenige voetafdrukken op Trachilos (Kreta ~6 Ma? Gierliński 2017, Kirscher 2021), Graeco- en Oreopithecus, en veel andere die via waterwegen Europa binnentrokken (Hdst 3). De
Mediterrane hominiden stierven uit (mega-vloed? droogte? hitte? afkoeling?), alleen die in de Rode Zee overleefden:
De beginnende Grote Slenk (East-African Rift System EARS, ~8 Ma?) werd o.a. bevolkt door Praeanthropus–Gorilla-australopitheken via waterbossen aan de noordkant (Afar, Turkana-meer enz.), bv. laat-Pliocene graciele afarensis (Lucy)  vroeg-
Pleistocene robuuste boisei.
Toen de Rode Zee zich opende in de Golf (exact 5,33 Ma? Francesca Mansfield’s Zanclean Flood–Red Sea-hypothese), volgde Pan rechts de Oost-Afrikaanse kusten, ze trokken dan als Australopithecus aan de zuidkant van de Slenk (EARS Malawi-meer enz.)
Zuid-Afrika binnen, in parallel met Praeanthropus aan de noordkant: laat-Pliocene graciele africanus (Taung)  vroeg-Pleistocene robuuste robustus.
Pliocene Homo volgde links de Zuid-Aziatische kusten, en drong de pongiden dieper het bos in, en Pongo drong (pas in de ijstijden, na ~2,5 Ma?) erectus dieper het water in, om naar schelpdieren te duiken?

BEWEGENDE CONTINENTEN EN ZICH OPSPLITSENDE MENSAPEN – HYPOTHETISCH EN SCHEMATISCH
VÒOR SPLITSING GEOLOGIE SPLITSING IN WAAR? Catarrhini ~25 Ma Indië->Z.Azië:archipels Cercopith./Hominoidea Noord-Indië
Hominoidea ~20 Ma Indië onder Azië->Himalaya less/great apes Tethys-oceaan-kusten
great apes ~15 Ma Mesopotamian Seaway closure pongid/hominid Tethys-zee-kusten
hominids ~10 Ma E.Afr. rift ~8 Ma Gorilla/ Homo–Pan Rode Zee
Homo–Pan ~5 Ma Zancle-mega-vloed 5.33 Ma? Homo/Pan Golf van Aden

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

JTEM is so reasonable wrote:

Primum Sapienti wrote:

The Zanclean flood involved the Straits of Gibraltar

Me: These events are global. The implications can't be
limited to the local area. They're too huge.

You: "See, it happened & stuff so yuz wrong."

You: No evidence.

Me:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood

"The Zanclean flood occurred when the Strait of Gibraltar opened."

"Red Sea" not mentioned.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

snorkel nose wrote:

kudu runner:

The Zanclean flood involved the Straits of Gibraltar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood
"The Zanclean flood occurred when the Strait of Gibraltar opened."
"Red Sea" not mentioned.

Sigh: again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood

Red Sea is NOT mentioned, child.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Primum Sapienti wrote:

You: No evidence.

If this isn't just your disorder speaking, if you actually
believe you can create a sea and not face global
implications, you need to destroy your computer.




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/721666107169292289

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Op zondag 2 juli 2023 om 07:08:00 UTC+2 schreef Primum Sapienti:

snorkel nose wrote:

kudu runner:

The Zanclean flood involved the Straits of Gibraltar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood
"The Zanclean flood occurred when the Strait of Gibraltar opened."
"Red Sea" not mentioned.

Sigh: again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood

Red Sea is NOT mentioned, child.

:-DDD
You're crazy: again:

Sigh: again:
1) again: Francesca Mansfield argued the Zanclean mega-flood (5.33 Ma) also opened the Red Sea into the Gulf/Aden.
2) Whether this is so (exactly 5.33 Ma), or the Red Sea opened 7 or 4 Ma, all it does NOT change the scenario, only the possible date:
- Pan went right = E.Afr.coast -> southern Rift -> Au.africanus->robustus (// Pr.afarensis->boisei in northern Rift)
- Homo went left = S.Asian coast -> e.g. early-Pleist.H.erectus Java google "pachyosteosclerosis"=regularly shallow-diving.
IOW, only incredible imbeciles still believe their Plio-Pleist.ancestors ran after antilopes on Afr.savannas. :-DDD

My 2022 book p.299-300:

Bijlage 16. Hypothese: Platentektoniek en Hominoïde Opdelingen

Diersoorten splitsen in 2 aparte soorten vaak door geografische soortvorming (allopatrische speciatie), in ons geval o.a. door botsende of scheurende continenten?
Een ‘gewone’ continentsnelheid is ~5 cm/jaar, maar Indië dook, en duikt nog, van zuid naar noord onder/tegen Azië met wel ~20 cm/jaar, de Himalaya opstuwend. Toen Indië Azië naderde (~30–25 Ma?), ontstonden daar eerst eiland-bogen (plooien of �
�rimpels’ in de aardkorst) vol lage, hete, natte kustbossen (vgl. bv. Indonesië?). Geleken de Catarrhini die die eilanden bereikten, wat op de huidige Nasalis-Rhinopith. in de mangroves? Eilandbewoners evolueren soms wat speciaal. De oermensapen (
Hominoidea) gingen in die waterbossen tweebenig waden, (google "aquarboreal") soms zwemmen, en klommen, armen omhoog, in de takken boven het water, ze werden groter, kregen een erg breed borstbeen,(sternum) borstkas en bekken, lange armen en benen die
makkelijk op- en zijwaarts bewogen, en een korte, verticale, centraal gelegen lendenwervelzuil, en verloren in het water hun staart (google aquarboreal).
Toen Indië onder Azië drong, verdeelde dat hen in kleine- en grote-mensapen (~20 Ma?), die de Oost-, resp. West-Euraziatische Tethys-oceaankusten volgden. (Splitste de beginnende Himalaya ook de hondapen: slankapen Oost, meerkatten West?)
En verdeelde Mesopotamische Zeewegsluiting later (~15 Ma? Bialik 2019) de grote-mensapen: sivapitheken–pongiden Oost, dryopitheken–hominiden West?
• De pongiden volgden in Zuid-Azië oostwaarts de kustbossen: drongen die ‘oer-orangs’ later de kleine-mensapen (de ‘oergibbons’) hoger de bomen in?
• De hominiden volgden de Tethys-zee, thans de Middellandse Zee: o.a. de tweebenige voetafdrukken op Trachilos (Kreta ~6 Ma? Gierliński 2017, Kirscher 2021), Graeco- en Oreopithecus, en veel andere die via waterwegen Europa binnentrokken (Hdst 3). De
Mediterrane hominiden stierven uit (mega-vloed? droogte? hitte? afkoeling?), alleen die in de Rode Zee overleefden:
De beginnende Grote Slenk (East-African Rift System EARS, ~8 Ma?) werd o.a. bevolkt door Praeanthropus–Gorilla-australopitheken via waterbossen aan de noordkant (Afar, Turkana-meer enz.), bv. laat-Pliocene graciele afarensis (Lucy)  vroeg-
Pleistocene robuuste boisei.
Toen de Rode Zee zich opende in de Golf (exact 5,33 Ma? Francesca Mansfield’s Zanclean Flood–Red Sea-hypothese), volgde Pan rechts de Oost-Afrikaanse kusten, ze trokken dan als Australopithecus aan de zuidkant van de Slenk (EARS Malawi-meer enz.)
Zuid-Afrika binnen, in parallel met Praeanthropus aan de noordkant: laat-Pliocene graciele africanus (Taung)  vroeg-Pleistocene robuuste robustus.
Pliocene Homo volgde links de Zuid-Aziatische kusten, en drong de pongiden dieper het bos in, en Pongo drong (pas in de ijstijden, na ~2,5 Ma?) erectus dieper het water in, om naar schelpdieren te duiken?

BEWEGENDE CONTINENTEN EN ZICH OPSPLITSENDE MENSAPEN – HYPOTHETISCH EN SCHEMATISCH
VÒOR SPLITSING GEOLOGIE SPLITSING IN WAAR?
Catarrhini ~25 Ma Indië->Z.Azië:archipels Cercopith./Hominoidea Noord-Indië Hominoidea ~20 Ma Indië onder Azië->Himalaya less/great apes Tethys-oceaan-kusten
great apes ~15 Ma Mesopotamian Seaway closure pongid/hominid Tethys-zee-kusten hominids ~10 Ma E.Afr. rift ~8 Ma Gorilla/ Homo–Pan Rode Zee
Homo–Pan ~5 Ma Zancle-mega-vloed 5.33 Ma? Homo/Pan Golf van Aden

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

JTEM is so reasonable wrote:


Oh, I forgot; you're retarded.

Why are you here? You demonstrate ZERO interest in these topics, you
post random, irrelevant "cites" you never read and couldn't understand
anyway AND you engage in infantile behavior.

Go away.

If this isn't just your disorder speaking, if you actually
believe you can create a sea and not face global
implications, you need to destroy your computer.


We're always so kind to you, so polite, despite your many obvious
flaws... your many, many flaws... many, many, many, many flaws...

Anyhow, we're always so cordial, pretending not to notice the
drool, never asking about the stains on the front of your pants,
and yet you return our charity with such rudeness! Did they teach
you nothing at that trailer park?

You don't make a good parrot, bird brain.

The gravity of the situation, vis a vis your mental health, is
troubling to say the least.

Look. You're an idiot. There's no denying that.

Lord knows you're not bright, and you're unaware of this fact (despite
the constant reminders).

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

littor...@gmail.com wrote:

Op zondag 2 juli 2023 om 07:08:00 UTC+2 schreef Primum Sapienti:

snorkel nose wrote:

kudu runner:

The Zanclean flood involved the Straits of Gibraltar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood
"The Zanclean flood occurred when the Strait of Gibraltar opened."
"Red Sea" not mentioned.

Sigh: again:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood

Red Sea is NOT mentioned, child.

:-DDD
You're crazy: again:

Sigh: again:

Yes, again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood

Red Sea not mentioned. It has no relevance in that event.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Primum Sapienti wrote:

[OCPD]

I should stick to the topic but i do love humiliating you over
your extensive array of crippling mental illnesses.




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/723706649198690304

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Primum Sapienti wrote:

Red Sea not mentioned.

"It does not appear in scripture!"

Who cares?

Aquatic Ape is right even if the good Doctor paints himself
yellow and runs screaming through the park. Nothing can
change the fact of Aquatic Ape, or make you bright.






-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/723706649198690304

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

kudu runner:

Yes, again: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zanclean_flood
Red Sea not mentioned. It has no relevance in that event.

Again:
1) Some think it does, e.g. Francesca Mansfield: the Zanclean mega-flood might well have caused the Red Sea to open in the Gulf of Aden.
2) But whether the Red Sea opened exactly 5.55 Ma (Zanclean flood) or somewhere between 6 & 5 Ma, is unimportant to my scenario:
retroviral evidence shows Pliocene human ancestors were NOT in Africa: C.T.Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol.3:1-11:
IOW, as show in my book (2022), Pliocene Homo lived along S-Asian coasts, e.g. early-Pleist.H.erectus Mojokerto Java:
google "erectus pachyosteosclerosis": originally they were predom.shallow-diving molluscivores along Ind.Ocean shores:
stone use = hard tools for opening fruits, shells etc., handiness cf. sea-otters.
I see at least 8 *different* (mutually independent!) indications (some stronger than others) that H.erectus frequently collected shellfish:
1) The atypical tooth-wear in archaic Homo was caused by "sand & oral processing of marine mollusks" (Towle cs 2022 doi 10.1002/ajpa.24500).
2) H.erectus fossilized amid shellfish & barnacles, e.g. Mojokerto, Java.
3) Stephen Munro found engravings on a sea-shell made by H.erectus (J.Joordens cs 2015 Nature 518:228-231).
4) Ear-exostoses as found in H.erectus & H.neand. develop after years of irrigation with cold(er) water.
5) Pachy-osteo-sclerosis (erectus>neand.>sapiens) is only seen in slow+shallow-diving tetrapods (de Buffrénil cs 2010 J.Mamm.Evol.17:101-120): H.erectus parietal bone is twice as thick as in gorillas!
6) Drastic brain enlargement (dolphins, pinnipeds...) is facilitated by sea-food, e.g. docosahexaenoic acid DHA in shellfish.
7) Homo’s stone tool use & handedness is typical for molluscivores such as sea-otters.
8) Pleistocene Homo even colonized overseas islands (Flores & later even Luzon), google “coastal dispersal Pleistocene Homo”.
IOW, only incredible imbeciles still deny H.erectus ran after antelopes... :-DDD

Few or no other evolutions are as well-known as our own evolution!

My sceniaro, see my book p.299-300 Hominoid Splittings & Plate Tectonics:
- hominoid/cercopith: India approaching S-Eurasia ?c 30 Ma: island archipels + coastal forests: Catarrhini reaching these became vertically wading-climbing Hominoidea, google "aquarboreal": larger & much wider body, complete tail loss, vertical & central
spine, Hominoidea=Latisternalia ("broad-breast-boned ones") etc.
- India further underneath Eurasia split c 20 Ma lesser/gr.apes = E/W of India along N-Tethys Ocean coasts.
- The Mesopotamian Seaway Closure (google) c 15 Ma split hominids/pongids = W/E = Medit.Sea/Ind.Ocean coasts.
- Medit.hominids died out: only the hominids in the incipient Red Sea survived: - Gorilla 8-7 Ma followed the incipient northern-Rift ->afarensis Lucy cs -> boisei cs,
- when the Red Sea opened into the Gulf of Aden (Zanclean mega-flood 5.33 Ma or not), Pliocene Pan went right: E.Afr.->S-Rift-> africanus Taung -> robustus cs (Pan//Gorilla), Pliocene Homo went left initially (S.Asia): Mojokerto...
- early-Pleist.(more shellfish??) or possibly even earlier, Homo became frequent divers: google "pachyosteosclerosis erectus" -> Pleistocene coastal dispersal.

IOW, you must be an *incredible idiot* to believe that Plio-Pleist.Homo ran over savanna, sweating water+salt...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

sorry, I meant 5.33 Ma, of course

2) But whether the Red Sea opened exactly 5.55 Ma (Zanclean flood) or somewhere between 6 & 5 Ma, is unimportant to my scenario:

...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Op maandag 24 juli 2023 om 20:28:15 UTC+2 schreef littor...@gmail.com:

sorry, I meant 5.33 Ma, of course

2) But whether the Red Sea opened exactly 5.55 Ma (Zanclean flood) or somewhere between 6 & 5 Ma, is unimportant to my scenario:

...

and even more sorry (becoming old?):
I wrote "IOW, only incredible imbeciles still deny H.erectus ran after antelopes... :-DDD"
should be "only incredible imbeciles still assume H.erectus ran after antelopes" or so.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

littor...@gmail.com wrote:

and even more sorry (becoming old?):
I wrote "IOW, only

Stop worrying about it.

The word for today is: Disarticulated.

The kudu runners, as you so lovingly refer to them as, are "Disarticulated"
in their position and their thinking.

Aquatic Ape, you -- the good Doctor -- present a cohesive model, one that
not only how key events (and adaptations) happened but WHY they
happened.

But your kudu runners don't have that. They can't think in those terms.
They see and think and "Argue" in disarticulated pieces. So they think
if they obsess over a detail here or a claim there they can take down
the whole house.

They're morons.





-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/723706649198690304

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Op dinsdag 25 juli 2023 om 04:46:07 UTC+2 schreef JTEM is so reasonable:

littor...@gmail.com wrote:

and even more sorry (becoming old?):
I wrote "IOW, only

Stop worrying about it.
The word for today is: Disarticulated.

:-D That doesn't make it better...

The kudu runners, as you so lovingly refer to them as, are "Disarticulated" in their position and their thinking.
Aquatic Ape, you -- the good Doctor -- present a cohesive model, one that
not only how key events (and adaptations) happened but WHY they
happened.
But your kudu runners don't have that. They can't think in those terms.
They see and think and "Argue" in disarticulated pieces. So they think
if they obsess over a detail here or a claim there they can take down
the whole house.
They're morons.

No doubt... :-DDD

What we're saying is not difficult at all - even kudu runners can understand: -Miocene hominoids were already bipedal=vertical in swamp forests: wading upright + climbing arms overhead,
-humans have no Pliocene African retroviral DNA: we were following S.Asian coasts, e.g. early-Pleist.erectus (Mojokerto-Java) fossilized amid shellfish,
-Stephen Munro discovered human-made engravings on such shellfish,
-erectus had very thick (2x gorilla) & very dense bones = *only* seen in shallow-diving tetrapods incl. earliest Cetacea & Pinnipedia,
-erectus brain x2, cf (semi)aquatic mammals: DHA... in aquatic foods,
-island colonizations, intercontinental coastal dispersals, etc.etc.
-what more must be said??

Only *incredible* imbeciles believe their Pleistocene ancestors ran after antelopes... :-DDD

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)