Early-Miocene Hominoidea were already "bipedal": they
- waded upright in the forest swamps where they fossilized &
- climbed arms overhead in the branches above the swamp,
google "aquarboreal".

Hypothesis in my book "De evolutie van de mens" p.299-300
(Acad.Uitg. Eburon 2022 Utrecht NL):
"Platentectoniek en hominoïde opdelingen?"

1) cercopith/ape split: hypothetically, but very (bio)logically IMO:
30-25 Ma India approached S-Eurasia -> island archipel fm, rich in coastal forests++
Catarrhini that reached these islands became "aquarboreal" (google).

2) great/lesser ape split (id.):
25-20 Ma India further underneath Asia (Himalaya fm etc.) split hylobatids (E) & gr.apes (W):
Hominoidea followed the Tethys Ocean coastal forests E (lesser) & W (gr.apes).

3) hominid/pongid split: likely IMO:
The Mesopotamian Seaway closure c 15 Ma split pongids (E ->SE.Asia) & hominids (W):
hominids-dryopiths along the Medit.Sea-coasts + rivers, e.g. Trachilos BP footprints Crete.
Medit.hominids died out (Messinian salt crisis? Tp? mega-flood? ...), except in (incipient) Red Sea:

4) Gorilla/Homo-Pan split: likely IMO:
8-7 Ma northern Rift fm, followed by Gorilla fossil subgenus Praeanthropus: late-Pliocene "gracile" afarensis -> early-Pleist."robust" aethiopicus & boisei,
Homo-Pan still aquarboreal in Red Sea.

5) Homo/Pan split in Red Sea -> Gulf, +-no doubt IMO:
Red Sea opened into Gulf (Francesca Mansfield: 5.33 Ma Zanclean mega-flood?):
- Pliocene Homo went left -> S-Asian coasts -> Java->Flores... google "coastal dispersal"
- Pan went right: fossil subgenus Australopithecus -> E.Afr.coast -> southern Rift:
late-Pliocene "africanus" -> early-Pleist. "robust" robustus // Gorilla -> knuckle-walking, longer arms, longer iliac blades etc.

IOW, "out-of Africa" = just-so fantasy:
all Hominoidea had BP ancestors:
australopiths were closer relatives of Pan or Gorilla than of Homo:
afro- & anthropo-centric prejudices!!

Google "GondwanaTalks Verhaegen" :-)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Fri, 10 Mar 2023 02:36:49 -0800 (PST), "littor...@gmail.com" <littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:

Early-Miocene Hominoidea were already "bipedal": they
- waded upright in the forest swamps where they fossilized &
- climbed arms overhead in the branches above the swamp,
google "aquarboreal".

Hypothesis in my book "De evolutie van de mens" p.299-300
(Acad.Uitg. Eburon 2022 Utrecht NL):
"Platentectoniek en homino�de opdelingen?"

1) cercopith/ape split: hypothetically, but very (bio)logically IMO:
30-25 Ma India approached S-Eurasia -> island archipel fm, rich in coastal forests++
Catarrhini that reached these islands became "aquarboreal" (google).

Already wrong right there.
Earliest and all early Miocene hominoids are from inland Africa
(Kenya, Uganda), except Heliopithecus (Saudi Arabia).
See:
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12161

https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jhevol.2022.103309

These hominoids were generalized above-branch quadrupeds, like
Proconsul:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proconsul_(mammal)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Pandora wrote:

Already wrong right there.
Earliest and all early Miocene hominoids are from inland Africa
(Kenya, Uganda), except Heliopithecus (Saudi Arabia).

If you squint, even you might be able to spot a contradiction there.

But, where have you looked?

What are some of the major sites outside of Africa? How were they
selected? What, specifically, are they testing for?

Because nothing is science if there's a selection/sampling bias.





-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/711397709548027904

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Early-Miocene Hominoidea were already "bipedal": they
- waded upright in the forest swamps where they fossilized &
- climbed arms overhead in the branches above the swamp,
google "aquarboreal".
Hypothesis in my book "De evolutie van de mens" p.299-300
(Acad.Uitg. Eburon 2022 Utrecht NL):
"Platentectoniek en hominoďde opdelingen?"
1) cercopith/ape split: hypothetically, but very (bio)logically IMO:
30-25 Ma India approached S-Eurasia -> island archipel fm, rich in coastal forests++
Catarrhini that reached these islands became "aquarboreal" (google).

Some kudu runner thought he should comment:

Already wrong right there.
Earliest and all early Miocene hominoids are from inland Africa
(Kenya, Uganda), except Heliopithecus (Saudi Arabia).
See https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12161 https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jhevol.2022.103309
These hominoids were generalized above-branch quadrupeds, like
Proconsul https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proconsul_(mammal)

Sigh.
1) Nobody knows these were Hominoidea,
2) if they were Hominoidea (well possible), coastal dispersal (mangroves?) brought them faster to Arabia etc.

Please keep running after your kudu...
Hopeless idiots!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Kudu runner:

Already wrong right there.
Earliest and all early Miocene hominoids are from inland Africa
(Kenya, Uganda), except Heliopithecus (Saudi Arabia).

Op zaterdag 11 maart 2023 om 23:15:54 UTC+1 schreef JTEM is so reasonable:

If you squint, even you might be able to spot a contradiction there.

Yes, the poor man doesn't even know that Arabia is not Africa...
How stupid can one be??

And not impossibly, Proconsul could have evolved partly in parallel with Hominoidea.

But, where have you looked?
What are some of the major sites outside of Africa? How were they
selected? What, specifically, are they testing for?
Because nothing is science if there's a selection/sampling bias.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023 14:15:53 -0800 (PST), JTEM is so reasonable <jtem01@gmail.com> wrote:

Pandora wrote:

Already wrong right there.
Earliest and all early Miocene hominoids are from inland Africa
(Kenya, Uganda), except Heliopithecus (Saudi Arabia).

If you squint, even you might be able to spot a contradiction there.

There's nothing contradictory about a statement like "all A's are x,
except for a subset of A's that are y".
For example, all swans (genus Cygnus) have all white plumage, except
C. atratus and C. melanocoryphus which are partly black. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swan

But, where have you looked?

Everywhere, and there are several Miocene hominoids known from Europe
and Asia (e.g. Sivapihecus), but those are all Middle or Late Miocene,
not Early Miocene, except Heliopithecus. But at 16 Ma Heliopithecus is
younger than the oldest African hominoids.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 03:46:53 -0700 (PDT), "littor...@gmail.com" <littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:

Early-Miocene Hominoidea were already "bipedal": they
- waded upright in the forest swamps where they fossilized &
- climbed arms overhead in the branches above the swamp,
google "aquarboreal".
Hypothesis in my book "De evolutie van de mens" p.299-300
(Acad.Uitg. Eburon 2022 Utrecht NL):
"Platentectoniek en homino?de opdelingen?"
1) cercopith/ape split: hypothetically, but very (bio)logically IMO:
30-25 Ma India approached S-Eurasia -> island archipel fm, rich in coastal forests++
Catarrhini that reached these islands became "aquarboreal" (google).

Some kudu runner thought he should comment:

Already wrong right there.
Earliest and all early Miocene hominoids are from inland Africa
(Kenya, Uganda), except Heliopithecus (Saudi Arabia).
See https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12161
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jhevol.2022.103309
These hominoids were generalized above-branch quadrupeds, like
Proconsul https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proconsul_(mammal)

Sigh.
1) Nobody knows these were Hominoidea,

"A phylogenetic analysis based on 816 characters drawn
from the skull, forelimb, pelvis and foot and sampling a diversity of
extant anthropoid taxa, offers compelling support for a hominoid clade including Proconsul" <https://www.proquest.com/openview/abc3b75084f68b43e2b7c318e9d3e4a7/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=18750>

2) if they were Hominoidea (well possible), coastal dispersal (mangroves?) brought them faster to Arabia etc.

Heliopithecus was recovered from a continental non-marine fresh-water depositional environment.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Early-Miocene Hominoidea were already "bipedal": they
- waded upright in the forest swamps where they fossilized &
- climbed arms overhead in the branches above the swamp,
google "aquarboreal".
Hypothesis in my book "De evolutie van de mens" p.299-300
(Acad.Uitg. Eburon 2022 Utrecht NL):
"Platentectoniek en homino?de opdelingen?"
1) cercopith/ape split: hypothetically, but very (bio)logically IMO:
30-25 Ma India approached S-Eurasia -> island archipel fm, rich in coastal forests++
Catarrhini that reached these islands became "aquarboreal" (google).

Some kudu runner thought he should comment:

Already wrong right there.
Earliest and all early Miocene hominoids are from inland Africa
(Kenya, Uganda), except Heliopithecus (Saudi Arabia).
See https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12161
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jhevol.2022.103309
These hominoids were generalized above-branch quadrupeds, like
Proconsul https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proconsul_(mammal)

Sigh.
1) Nobody knows these were Hominoidea,

Kudu runner:

"A phylogenetic analysis based on 816 characters drawn
from the skull, forelimb, pelvis and foot and sampling a diversity of
extant anthropoid taxa, offers compelling support for a hominoid clade including Proconsul" <https://www.proquest.com/openview/abc3b75084f68b43e2b7c318e9d3e4a7/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=18750>

Yes, the kudu runners also have "compelling support" for apiths being human ancestors... :-DDD
Parallel evolutions!
E.Afr.apiths were fossil relatives of Gorilla // S.Afr.apiths, of Pan.
S.Afr

2) if they were Hominoidea (well possible), coastal dispersal (mangroves?) brought them faster to Arabia etc.

Heliopithecus was recovered from a continental non-marine fresh-water depositional environment.

Yes, fossilization is more likely in fresh- than in seawater?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sun, 12 Mar 2023 10:48:41 -0700 (PDT), "littor...@gmail.com" <littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:

Early-Miocene Hominoidea were already "bipedal": they
- waded upright in the forest swamps where they fossilized &
- climbed arms overhead in the branches above the swamp,
google "aquarboreal".
Hypothesis in my book "De evolutie van de mens" p.299-300
(Acad.Uitg. Eburon 2022 Utrecht NL):
"Platentectoniek en homino?de opdelingen?"
1) cercopith/ape split: hypothetically, but very (bio)logically IMO:
30-25 Ma India approached S-Eurasia -> island archipel fm, rich in coastal forests++
Catarrhini that reached these islands became "aquarboreal" (google).

Some kudu runner thought he should comment:

Already wrong right there.
Earliest and all early Miocene hominoids are from inland Africa
(Kenya, Uganda), except Heliopithecus (Saudi Arabia).
See https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12161
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jhevol.2022.103309
These hominoids were generalized above-branch quadrupeds, like
Proconsul https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proconsul_(mammal)

Sigh.
1) Nobody knows these were Hominoidea,

Kudu runner:

"A phylogenetic analysis based on 816 characters drawn
from the skull, forelimb, pelvis and foot and sampling a diversity of
extant anthropoid taxa, offers compelling support for a hominoid clade
including Proconsul"
<https://www.proquest.com/openview/abc3b75084f68b43e2b7c318e9d3e4a7/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=18750>

Yes, the kudu runners also have "compelling support" for apiths being human ancestors... :-DDD

Indeed, see:
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jhevol.2022.103311

See also my post of 29 january 2023: https://groups.google.com/g/sci.anthropology.paleo/c/3oL53wcUAPY/m/RyAaer-fAQAJ

2) if they were Hominoidea (well possible), coastal dispersal (mangroves?) brought them faster to Arabia etc.

Heliopithecus was recovered from a continental non-marine fresh-water
depositional environment.

Yes, fossilization is more likely in fresh- than in seawater?

Nah, the seas are essentially one big sedimentary basin. We have
countless fossils of marine organisms, from the Precambrian to the
Pleistocene. Some of the best Konservat Lagerst�tten are marine.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Early-Miocene Hominoidea were already "bipedal": they
- waded upright in the forest swamps where they fossilized &
- climbed arms overhead in the branches above the swamp,
google "aquarboreal".
Hypothesis in my book "De evolutie van de mens" p.299-300
(Acad.Uitg. Eburon 2022 Utrecht NL):
"Platentectoniek en homino?de opdelingen?"
1) cercopith/ape split: hypothetically, but very (bio)logically IMO: >> >> >30-25 Ma India approached S-Eurasia -> island archipel fm, rich in coastal forests++
Catarrhini that reached these islands became "aquarboreal" (google).

Some kudu runner thought he should comment:

Already wrong right there.
Earliest and all early Miocene hominoids are from inland Africa
(Kenya, Uganda), except Heliopithecus (Saudi Arabia).
See https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12161
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jhevol.2022.103309
These hominoids were generalized above-branch quadrupeds, like
Proconsul https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proconsul_(mammal)

Sigh. 1) Nobody knows these were Hominoidea,

Kudu runner:

"A phylogenetic analysis based on 816 characters drawn
from the skull, forelimb, pelvis and foot and sampling a diversity of
extant anthropoid taxa, offers compelling support for a hominoid clade
including Proconsul"
<https://www.proquest.com/openview/abc3b75084f68b43e2b7c318e9d3e4a7/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=18750>

Yes, the kudu runners also have "compelling support" for apiths being human ancestors... :-DDD

Indeed, see: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jhevol.2022.103311

Yes, this beautifully show their prejudices, google
"Not Homo, but Pan or Australopithecus naledi?"

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)