Hominoidea (at least early-Miocene?) became BP waders-climbers in coastal forests:
when the Indian continent approached southern Eurasia (40-30 Ma), this formed island archipels, full of coastal forests.
Some of the Catarrhini that reached these islands (already +-adapted to coastal forests in Eurasia??) became the Hominoidea, who fully adapted to living bipedally in these coastal forests of the Indian islands: larger size & longer pregnancy, complete
tail loss, less lumbar vertebras (7->5), more centrally-placed spine, very broad pelvis+thorax+sternum & dorsal scapulas, lateral & longer arms, etc.
When India went further underneath Eurasia (forming the Himalaya), this split them into lesser apes (hylobatids) East & great apes West in the coastal forests along the Tethys Ocean c 20 Ma?
Then, c 15 Ma, the Mesopotamian Seaway closure split the great apes into
- pongids East (Ind.Ocean coastal forests) &
- hominids West, along the Tethys=Medit.Sea (cf. the BP footprints of Trachilos, Crete).
Only hominids of the incipient Red Sea survived until today: Gorilla, Homo & Pan:
-Gorilla 8 or 7 Ma followed the incipient northern Rift (EARS E.Afr.Rift System) -> Afar: Gorilla fossil subspecies Praeanthropus afarensis->boisei,
-Homo & Pan split 5.33 Ma, when the Zanclean mega-flood opened the Red Sea into the Gulf (Francesca Mansfield)?
-- Pan followed the E.Afr.coastal forests (Josephine Joordens 2011 dissertation Univ.Amsterdam '"The power of place: climate change as driver of hominin evolution and dispersal over the past five million years"), and then followed the incipient southern
Rift (EARS) -> Pan fossil subspecies Australopithecus africanus->robustus, in // afarensis->bosei = late-Pliocene"gracile"->early-Pleist."robust" australopiths in parallel!
-- Pliocene Homo followed the S-Asian sea-coasts, where they began diving more+more for shellfish: early-Pleistocene Javanese H.erectus (ancestor or nephew of ours?) was *very aquatic* = slow+shallow-diving: brain size x2 (DHA), pachy-osteo-sclerosis,
broad+flat skull+body+limbs etc.

Note
- the enormous influence of plate tectonics on hominoid evolution!
- the remarkable parallel evolution of Gorilla // Pan in N-EARS vs S-EARS!

Were Plate Tectonics, as well as Parallel Evolution also so important in many other animals??

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Marc Verhaegen wrote:

-Gorilla 8 or 7 Ma followed the incipient northern Rift (EARS E.Afr.Rift System) -> Afar: Gorilla
fossil subspecies Praeanthropus afarensis->boisei,
-Homo & Pan split 5.33 Ma, when the Zanclean mega-flood opened the Red Sea into the Gulf (Francesca Mansfield)?

I still believe it was later. Though...

The two populations could have become separate & distinct without them necessarily
becoming different species. They could have cross bred, at least on occasion.

Personally, I think this had to be the case. Effectively what I argue is all the separation
and distinction we see in the case on Neanderthals, Denisovans and the like was merely a continuation of the exact same process that was occurring for the entire
history of our genus, and then some.

In nature, if and when you establish that something can happen you need a reason
for it to NOT happen, else it will happen again & again & again.

On another topic, for example, if we entertain the notion that a universe can come
into existence, that a universe can be "Created" -- and this is something that a
great many of us believe has in fact happened -- then you need something to stop
more universes from being created... else they exist in infinite numbers.

Right?

And just as our ancestors radiated out, separated and became Neanderthals, Denisovans and others, the same thing most certainly was occurring before any of those groups arose... Chimps arose the very same way... probably gorillas.




-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/709313954911027200

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Op donderdag 23 februari 2023 om 08:20:29 UTC+1 schreef JTEM is so reasonable:

-Gorilla 8 or 7 Ma followed the incipient northern Rift (EARS E.Afr.Rift System) ->Afar: Gorilla
fossil subspecies Praeanthropus afarensis->boisei,
-Homo & Pan split 5.33 Ma, when the Zanclean mega-flood opened the Red Sea into the Gulf (Francesca Mansfield)?

I still believe it was later. Though...

I'm not sure at all, but 5.33 Ma seems perfect to me from every viewpoint: comparative, geology, DNA, fossil appearence of apiths...

The 2 populations could have become separate & distinct without them necessarily
becoming different species. They could have cross bred, at least on occasion.

If you mean E & S.Afr.apiths: initially, yes, but Praeanthr.Gorilla was in Afar IMO, Australop.Pan was later in Transvaal...
If you mean Homo & Pan: idem: Pliocene Homo was in S.Asian (early-Pleist. Java), Pan in E.Afr.coasts.

Personally, I think this had to be the case. Effectively what I argue is all the separation
and distinction we see in the case on Neanderthals, Denisovans and the like was
merely a continuation of the exact same process that was occurring for the entire
history of our genus, and then some.

Hs/Hn/Hd is late-Pleist.

In nature, if and when you establish that something can happen you need a reason
for it to NOT happen, else it will happen again & again & again.

Reason = different place!

On another topic, for example, if we entertain the notion that a universe can come
into existence, that a universe can be "Created" -- and this is something that a
great many of us believe has in fact happened -- then you need something to stop
more universes from being created... else they exist in infinite numbers. Right?

Yes, but "Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muss man schweigen." (Wittgenstein?)

--marc

And just as our ancestors radiated out, separated and became Neanderthals, Denisovans and others, the same thing most certainly was occurring before any
of those groups arose... Chimps arose the very same way... probably gorillas.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Marc Verhaegen wrote:

In nature, if and when you establish that something can happen you need a reason
for it to NOT happen, else it will happen again & again & again.

Reason = different place!

That doesn't work, not with Aquatic Ape. "The Place" is the ocean front. And following
that ocean front they are going to come into contact with populations that had previously split off.

By "Contact" I include splinter groups moving inland and contacting the dependents
of earlier splinter groups...

Had to happen. It did happen.

Us so called moderns are a hybrid. The Aquatic Ape population is the only one all
us so called moderns have in common, but it's far from the only one. The San in sub Saharan Africa have Aquatic Ape ancestors just like me, but they don't share
my Neanderthal ancestors and they have ancestors that I don't share.

Technically: They're all Aquatic Ape ancestors by the peeled off, pushed inland
and adapted at different points along the globe and different times.

This never stopped. Even in the case of Neanderthals there are clearly Aquatic populations -- living on the shoreline and exploiting the sea. But there are also
inland groups that are so strongly associated with reindeer that it is sometimes
suggested that there might've been some kind of domestication.

The Americas? Had to be reached by water. But, then there's the Plains Indians, nowhere near the ocean...

That's why I suggest that the pivotal moment came around 8.7 million years ago with the eruption of Yellowstone. It would have been a period ranging from years
to DECADES with no pushing inland, no watering down the gene pool, no moderating their evolution with inland selective pressures.

I'm not saying Chimps & humans sprung up 8.7 million years ago. I'm saying that it was a point in history where 100% of the selective pressure would be on adapting to better exploit marine resources. There'd be no interbreeding with other groups, no wandering away from the shore in search of bananas... not for some time.





-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/708628589026951168

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Op donderdag 23 februari 2023 om 17:50:36 UTC+1 schreef JTEM is so reasonable:

The 2 populations could have become separate & distinct without them necessarily
becoming different species. They could have cross bred, at least on occasion. ...
In nature, if and when you establish that something can happen you need a reason
for it to NOT happen, else it will happen again & again & again.

Reason = different place!

That doesn't work, not with Aquatic Ape. "The Place" is the ocean front. And following
that ocean front they are going to come into contact with populations that had
previously split off.

Allopatric speciations:
my book p.299 "Platentektoniek en hominoïde opdelingen?" (plate tectonics & hominoid splittings)
- cercopith/hominoid = hominoids reached coastal forests of Indian island archipels approaching S-Asia 30-25 Ma?
- lesser/great ape split = India under Eurasia c 20 Ma: hylobatids E, gr.apes W along Tethys Ocean coasts,
- pongid/hominid = Mesopotamian Seaway closure c 15 Ma: pongids E (too different from hylobatids to interbreed), hominids W,
- Medit.hominids died out, only hominids in (incipient!) Red Sea survived:
- Gorilla fossil subgenus Praeanthr.afarensis->boisei followed (incipient!) northern Rift (EARS) 8-7 Ma,
- Red Sea opened ->Gulf 6-5 Ma: Homo left, Pan right->E.Afr.coastal forest ->(incipient!) southern EARS: Australop.africanus->robustus,
- Pliocene Homo along Ind.Ocean (too different from Pongo to interbreed) ->H.erectus "Aq.Ape" incl.Java ->H.sapiens worldwide.

Note parallel evolution Afr.apes: late-Plio->early-Pleist.->late-Pleist.: gracile->robust->knuckle-walking:
afarensis->boisei->low+highland gorilla // africanus->robustus->chimp+bonobo

By "Contact" I include splinter groups moving inland and contacting the dependents
of earlier splinter groups...

Yes, H.s.neand. & H.s.sapiens interbred isopatrically: Atl.Ocean? Northsea?

Had to happen. It did happen.
Us so called moderns are a hybrid. The Aquatic Ape population is the only one all
us so called moderns have in common, but it's far from the only one. The San in
sub Saharan Africa have Aquatic Ape ancestors just like me, but they don't share
my Neanderthal ancestors and they have ancestors that I don't share. Technically: They're all Aquatic Ape ancestors by the peeled off, pushed inland
and adapted at different points along the globe and different times.
This never stopped. Even in the case of Neanderthals there are clearly Aquatic
populations -- living on the shoreline and exploiting the sea. But there are also
inland groups that are so strongly associated with reindeer that it is sometimes
suggested that there might've been some kind of domestication.
The Americas? Had to be reached by water. But, then there's the Plains Indians,
nowhere near the ocean...
That's why I suggest that the pivotal moment came around 8.7 million years ago
with the eruption of Yellowstone. It would have been a period ranging from years
to DECADES with no pushing inland, no watering down the gene pool, no moderating their evolution with inland selective pressures.
I'm not saying Chimps & humans sprung up 8.7 million years ago. I'm saying that
it was a point in history where 100% of the selective pressure would be on adapting to better exploit marine resources. There'd be no interbreeding with
other groups, no wandering away from the shore in search of bananas... not for
some time.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, 22 Feb 2023 11:04:46 -0800 (PST), Marc Verhaegen <m_verhaegen@skynet.be> wrote:

Hominoidea (at least early-Miocene?) became BP waders-climbers in coastal forests:
when the Indian continent approached southern Eurasia (40-30 Ma), this formed island archipels, full of coastal forests.
Some of the Catarrhini that reached these islands (already +-adapted to coastal forests in Eurasia??) became the Hominoidea, who fully adapted to living bipedally in these coastal forests of the Indian islands: larger size & longer pregnancy, complete

tail loss, less lumbar vertebras (7->5), more centrally-placed spine, very broad pelvis+thorax+sternum & dorsal scapulas, lateral & longer arms, etc.

When India went further underneath Eurasia (forming the Himalaya), this split them into lesser apes (hylobatids) East & great apes West in the coastal forests along the Tethys Ocean c 20 Ma?
Then, c 15 Ma, the Mesopotamian Seaway closure split the great apes into
- pongids East (Ind.Ocean coastal forests) &
- hominids West, along the Tethys=Medit.Sea (cf. the BP footprints of Trachilos, Crete).
Only hominids of the incipient Red Sea survived until today: Gorilla, Homo & Pan:
-Gorilla 8 or 7 Ma followed the incipient northern Rift (EARS E.Afr.Rift System) -> Afar: Gorilla fossil subspecies Praeanthropus afarensis->boisei,
-Homo & Pan split 5.33 Ma, when the Zanclean mega-flood opened the Red Sea into the Gulf (Francesca Mansfield)?
-- Pan followed the E.Afr.coastal forests (Josephine Joordens 2011 dissertation Univ.Amsterdam '"The power of place: climate change as driver of hominin evolution and dispersal over the past five million years"), and then followed the incipient southern

Rift (EARS) -> Pan fossil subspecies Australopithecus africanus->robustus, in // afarensis->bosei = late-Pliocene"gracile"->early-Pleist."robust" australopiths in parallel!

-- Pliocene Homo followed the S-Asian sea-coasts, where they began diving more+more for shellfish: early-Pleistocene Javanese H.erectus (ancestor or nephew of ours?) was *very aquatic* = slow+shallow-diving: brain size x2 (DHA), pachy-osteo-sclerosis,

broad+flat skull+body+limbs etc.

Note
- the enormous influence of plate tectonics on hominoid evolution!
- the remarkable parallel evolution of Gorilla // Pan in N-EARS vs S-EARS!

Were Plate Tectonics, as well as Parallel Evolution also so important in many other animals??

See "Biological Consequences of Plate Tectonics", in particular
chapter 17:
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-49753-8_17

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Pandora wrote:

See

"Paleo" is to "Anthropology" what "Biblical" is to "Archaeology."

Perhaps even worse as applying "Biblical" is effectively labelling
it as faith based, so an argument can be made that there's no misrepresentation.








-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/709843474858622976

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Op vrijdag 24 februari 2023 om 12:37:48 UTC+1 schreef Pandora:

Hominoidea (at least early-Miocene?) became BP waders-climbers in coastal forests:
when the Indian continent approached southern Eurasia (40-30 Ma), this formed island archipels, full of coastal forests.
Some of the Catarrhini that reached these islands (already +-adapted to coastal forests in Eurasia??) became the Hominoidea, who fully adapted to living bipedally in these coastal forests of the Indian islands: larger size & longer pregnancy, complete

tail loss, less lumbar vertebras (7->5), more centrally-placed spine, very broad pelvis+thorax+sternum & dorsal scapulas, lateral & longer arms, etc.

When India went further underneath Eurasia (forming the Himalaya), this split them into lesser apes (hylobatids) East & great apes West in the coastal forests along the Tethys Ocean c 20 Ma?
Then, c 15 Ma, the Mesopotamian Seaway closure split the great apes into
- pongids East (Ind.Ocean coastal forests) &
- hominids West, along the Tethys=Medit.Sea (cf. the BP footprints of Trachilos, Crete).
Only hominids of the incipient Red Sea survived until today: Gorilla, Homo & Pan:
-Gorilla 8 or 7 Ma followed the incipient northern Rift (EARS E.Afr.Rift System) -> Afar: Gorilla fossil subspecies Praeanthropus afarensis->boisei,
-Homo & Pan split 5.33 Ma, when the Zanclean mega-flood opened the Red Sea into the Gulf (Francesca Mansfield)?
-- Pan followed the E.Afr.coastal forests (Josephine Joordens 2011 dissertation Univ.Amsterdam '"The power of place: climate change as driver of hominin evolution and dispersal over the past five million years"), and then followed the incipient

southern Rift (EARS) -> Pan fossil subspecies Australopithecus africanus->robustus, in // afarensis->bosei = late-Pliocene"gracile"->early-Pleist."robust" australopiths in parallel!

-- Pliocene Homo followed the S-Asian sea-coasts, where they began diving more+more for shellfish: early-Pleistocene Javanese H.erectus (ancestor or nephew of ours?) was *very aquatic* = slow+shallow-diving: brain size x2 (DHA), pachy-osteo-sclerosis,

broad+flat skull+body+limbs etc.

Note
- the enormous influence of plate tectonics on hominoid evolution!
- the remarkable parallel evolution of Gorilla // Pan in N-EARS vs S-EARS! >Were Plate Tectonics, as well as Parallel Evolution also so important in many other animals??

See "Biological Consequences of Plate Tectonics", in particular chapter 17: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-3-030-49753-8_17

Dispersal of Miocene Hominoids (and Pliopithecoids) from Africa to Eurasia in Light of Changing Tectonics and Climate
CC Gilbert cs 2020 chapter in Vertebrate Paleobiology & Paleoanthropology book series (VERT)
- examines hypothesized dispersal events between Africa & Eurasia involving non-cercopithecoid catarrhines, particularly hominoids,
- reviews the tectonic & climatic events that may have had a role in shaping them.
All available evidence points to hominoid origins in Africa by the latest Oligocene, ...

:-D

Pure fantasy, based exclusively on afrocentric prejudices:
-- Hylobatids & pongids & H.erectus = SE.Asia,
-- in Africa only Pan & Gorilla + their australopith fossils.

What really happened AFAICS, see above:
Plate Tectonics & Hominoid Splittings.
In short:
-India 30-25 Ma approached S-Asia: Catarrhini reaching these archipels + coastal forests became aquarboreal.
-IOW, early-Miocene Hominoidea were already BIPEDAL wading+climbing arms overhead, google "aquarboreal".
-India further underneath Eurasia split lesser & great apes in coastal forests along the Tethys Ocean: E vs W.
-The Mesopotamian Seaway closure 15 Ma split hominids (Medit.coasts) & pongids (Ind.Ocean coasts): W vs E.
-Hominids in Red Sea survived late-Miocene: Gorilla + Homo-Pan: still bipedally wading+climbing aquarboreals.
-Gorilla-Praeanthropus followed the northern-Rift 8-7 Ma ->afarensis ->boisei- >low+highland gorillas.
-The Red Sea opened into the Gulf (5.33 Ma?): Pliocene Pan went right ->E.Africa, Homo went left ->S.Asia.
-Pan-Australopithecus via E.Afr.coasts (Joordens 2011) ->southern-Rift ->africanus ->boisei ->bonobo+chimp.
-Pan//Gorilla evolved in parallel: late-Plio-"gracile" -> early-Pleisto-"robust" -> late-Pleisto-"knuckle-walking".
-Plio-->Pleist.Homo ->H.erectus Java 2 Ma, diving for shellfish etc., google "coastal dispersal Pleistocene Homo".

https://www.gondwanatalks.com/l/the-waterside-hypothesis-wading-led-to-upright-walking-in-early-humans/

_______

Rest of afrocentric prejudices (don't Gilbert cs know that gibbons are apes??):

... and the earliest evidence for apes outside of Africa in Eurasia occurs at ~17–16 Ma following a tectonic event at ~19 Ma that resulted in a landbridge between these continents through the Arabia. Following their initial dispersal into Eurasia, the
estimated nr of subsequent dispersals between Africa, Asia & Europe is dependent on the hypothesized phylogeny of these fossil apes. Here, we examined several recent phylogenetic hypotheses that suggest anywhere between 1 & 4 hominoid dispersal events
between Africa & Eurasia, and a minimum of 0 to 2 ape dispersals between Europe & Asia. The arrival of pongines & possibly other apes in Asia most likely occurred during or right after the mid-Miocene Climatic Optimum ~17–15 Ma, and the extinction of
many Asian taxa was probably driven in part by Himalayan tectonic uplift late-Miocene ~9–8 Ma, which changed climatic patterns, and resulted in the loss of preferred hominoid rain-forest habitat. Similarly, climate change in Europe resulting in the
loss of preferred habitat almost certainly played a role in European ape extinction.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Hominoidea (at least early-Miocene?) became BP waders-climbers in coastal forests:
when the Indian continent approached southern Eurasia (40-30 Ma), this formed island archipels, full of coastal forests.
Some of the Catarrhini that reached these islands (already +-adapted to coastal forests in Eurasia??) became the Hominoidea, who fully adapted to living bipedally in these coastal forests of the Indian islands: larger size & longer pregnancy, complete

tail loss, less lumbar vertebras (7->5), more centrally-placed spine, very broad pelvis+thorax+sternum & dorsal scapulas, lateral & longer arms, etc.

When India went further underneath Eurasia (forming the Himalaya), this split them into lesser apes (hylobatids) East & great apes West in the coastal forests along the Tethys Ocean c 20 Ma?
Then, c 15 Ma, the Mesopotamian Seaway closure split the great apes into
- pongids East (Ind.Ocean coastal forests) &
- hominids West, along the Tethys=Medit.Sea (cf. the BP footprints of Trachilos, Crete).
Only hominids of the incipient Red Sea survived until today: Gorilla, Homo & Pan:
-Gorilla 8 or 7 Ma followed the incipient northern Rift (EARS E.Afr.Rift System) -> Afar: Gorilla fossil subspecies Praeanthropus afarensis->boisei,
-Homo & Pan split 5.33 Ma, when the Zanclean mega-flood opened the Red Sea into the Gulf (Francesca Mansfield)?
-- Pan followed the E.Afr.coastal forests (Josephine Joordens 2011 dissertation Univ.Amsterdam '"The power of place: climate change as driver of hominin evolution and dispersal over the past five million years"), and then followed the incipient

southern Rift (EARS) -> Pan fossil subspecies Australopithecus africanus->robustus, in // afarensis->bosei = late-Pliocene"gracile"->early-Pleist."robust" australopiths in parallel!

-- Pliocene Homo followed the S-Asian sea-coasts, where they began diving more+more for shellfish: early-Pleistocene Javanese H.erectus (ancestor or nephew of ours?) was *very aquatic* = slow+shallow-diving: brain size x2 (DHA), pachy-osteo-sclerosis,

broad+flat skull+body+limbs etc.

This is hypothetical, of course, but is it correct?

I have +-no doubt that
- the late-Miocene hominids s.s. (HPG) lived in Red Sea swamp forests,
- Gorilla followed the incipient N-EARS ->afarensis ->boisei etc.
- when the Red Sea opened into the Gulf (5.33 Ma?) H went right, P went left:
- Pan in the E.Afr.coastal forests ->S-EARS ->africanus ->robustus //Gorilla,
- Pliocene Homo ->H.erectus Java dived for shellfish etc.

No doubt early Hominoidea became aquarboreal (Oligo-? early-Miocene?),
but I'm less sure where (hylobatids & pongids in SE.Asia):
-- Indian island archipels = aquarboreal: very (bio)logical IMO, but no fossils.
-- What about the African "apes"?cercopiths after c 20 Ma?
e.g. dendropiths? Nyanzapith., Proconsul? Ugandapith.? Morotopith.? Equatorius? Afropith.?
Hominoidea?? or mostly partial convergences & parallelisms?
were most still above-branchers? no shortened lumbar spine & no broad sternum! Hominoidea=Latisternalia (broad sternum) = very broad thorax & pelvis: lateral arm+leg movements.

And what about late-Plio-Pleistocene naledi & habilis?
- "habilis" includes different spp? some Gorilla-Praeanthr., other Homo??
- naledi IMO is Pan-Australopith., not Homo, google "naledi verhaegen".

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I have +-no doubt that
- the late-Miocene hominids s.s. (HPG) lived in Red Sea swamp forests,
- Gorilla followed the incipient N-EARS ->afarensis ->boisei etc.
- when the Red Sea opened into the Gulf (5.33 Ma?) H went right, P went left:

Sorry, Pan went right, of course, Homo went left:

- Pan in the E.Afr.coastal forests ->S-EARS ->africanus ->robustus //Gorilla, - Pliocene Homo ->H.erectus Java dived for shellfish etc.
No doubt early Hominoidea became aquarboreal (Oligo-? early-Miocene?),
but I'm less sure where (hylobatids & pongids in SE.Asia):
-- Indian island archipels = aquarboreal: very (bio)logical IMO, but no fossils.
-- What about the African "apes"?cercopiths after c 20 Ma?
e.g. dendropiths? Nyanzapith., Proconsul? Ugandapith.? Morotopith.? Equatorius? Afropith.?
Hominoidea?? or mostly partial convergences & parallelisms?
were most still above-branchers? no shortened lumbar spine & no broad sternum!
Hominoidea=Latisternalia (broad sternum) = very broad thorax & pelvis: lateral arm+leg movements.

And what about late-Plio-Pleistocene naledi & habilis?
- "habilis" includes different spp? some Gorilla-Praeanthr., other Homo??
- naledi IMO is Pan-Australopith., not Homo, google "naledi verhaegen".

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I have +-no doubt that
- the late-Miocene hominids s.s. (HPG) lived in Red Sea swamp forests,
- Gorilla followed the incipient N-EARS ->afarensis ->boisei etc.
- when the Red Sea opened into the Gulf (5.33 Ma?) H went right, P went left:

Sorry, Pan went right, of course, Homo went left.

But why did Homo (S.Asian coast) evolve differently from P // G in the African Rift?
The HP LCA >5 Ma was predom.wading-climbing in Red Sea swamp forests, but
- what did they eat mostly? tree-fruits? mangrove oysters? sedges, waterlilies, rice...? cf extant gr.apes?
- how much % did they climb? mostly below-branch? how much did they wade?
- did the hominid LCA already dive sometimes for shellfish etc.??
- did H.erectus cs evolve POS (=regular shallow-diving) late-Plio-? early-Pleist.?
cf. Ice Ages? e.g. cooling = different shellfish??

https://www.gondwanatalks.com/l/the-waterside-hypothesis-wading-led-to-upright-walking-in-early-humans/

- Pan in the E.Afr.coastal forests ->S-EARS ->africanus ->robustus //Gorilla,
- Pliocene Homo ->H.erectus Java dived for shellfish etc.
No doubt early Hominoidea became aquarboreal (Oligo-? early-Miocene?),
but I'm less sure where (hylobatids & pongids in SE.Asia):
-- Indian island archipels = aquarboreal: very (bio)logical IMO, but no fossils.
-- What about the African "apes"?cercopiths after c 20 Ma?
e.g. dendropiths? Nyanzapith., Proconsul? Ugandapith.? Morotopith.? Equatorius? Afropith.?
Hominoidea?? or mostly partial convergences & parallelisms?
were most still above-branchers? no shortened lumbar spine & no broad sternum!
Hominoidea=Latisternalia (broad sternum) = very broad thorax & pelvis: lateral arm+leg movements.

And what about late-Plio-Pleistocene naledi & habilis?
- "habilis" includes different spp? some Gorilla-Praeanthr., other Homo??
- naledi IMO is Pan-Australopith., not Homo, google "naledi verhaegen".

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)