• Hunting Neanderthals

    From Pandora@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 1 22:17:33 2023
    Hunting and processing of straight-tusked elephants 125.000 years ago: Implications for Neanderthal behavior

    Abstract

    Straight-tusked elephants (Palaeoloxodon antiquus) were the largest
    terrestrial mammals of the Pleistocene, present in Eurasian landscapes
    between 800,000 and 100,000 years ago. The occasional co-occurrence of
    their skeletal remains with stone tools has generated rich speculation
    about the nature of interactions between these elephants and
    Pleistocene humans: Did hominins scavenge on elephants that died a
    natural death or maybe even hunt some individuals? Our
    archaeozoological study of the largest P. antiquus assemblage known,
    excavated from 125,000-year-old lake deposits in Germany, shows that
    hunting of elephants weighing up to 13 metric tons was part of the
    cultural repertoire of Last Interglacial Neanderthals there, over
    2000 years, many dozens of generations. The intensity and nutritional
    yields of these well-documented butchering activities, combined with
    previously reported data from this Neumark-Nord site complex, suggest
    that Neanderthals were less mobile and operated within social units substantially larger than commonly envisaged.

    Open access:
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.add8186

    OK, not kudu, but elephants are even better.

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  • From JTEM is so reasonable@21:1/5 to Pandora on Wed Feb 1 13:41:45 2023
    Pandora wrote:

    The intensity and nutritional
    yields of these well-documented butchering activities, combined with previously reported data from this Neumark-Nord site complex, suggest
    that Neanderthals were less mobile and operated within social units substantially larger than commonly envisaged.

    I've never tested these things but the way I learned it was that Neanderthals tended to be territorial, and there wasn't much evidence for them extending their reach beyond their territory -- to acquire better stone for tool making, for example. Neanderthals, I always learned, tended to exploit to the best
    of their abilities the resources surrounding them. So called "Moderns" though....

    Again, this is how I learned it: Moderns tended to move around, seeking
    out the best environments and materials. They might travel quite a distance from season to season, as food became less abundant in one area and
    more abundant in another. And they are often associated with a type of
    rock, for example, much more conducive to tool making than anything
    found locally.

    Also: The exact same model I see with the early Aquatic Ape population,
    groups pushing inland and adapting, I see continuing even in Neanderthal
    times. Yes there were "Aquatic" Neanderthals -- living waterside, exploiting aquatic resources, we have plenty of proof of that -- and those are no
    doubt the Neanderthals we trace back in our ancestry. But they weren't
    the only Neanderthals. Groups regularly pushed inland escaping conflict, disease, natural disasters (etc). Just as they had always done. And of course these inland groups would have been the most vulnerable to catastrophes
    such as super volcanoes, the glacial/interglacial cycle, etc.

    The inland population was the first in line to die. The coastal population was the first in line to breed with other groups pushing in from Asia and Africa.





    -- --

    https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/708030054879428608

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  • From littoral.homo@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 1 14:59:22 2023
    Hunting and processing of straight-tusked elephants 125.000 years ago: implications for Neanderthal behavior https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.add8186
    Palaeoloxodon antiquus were the largest Pleistocene terrestrial mammals in Eurasia between 800 & 100 ka.
    The occasional co-occurrence of their skeletal remains with stone tools has generated rich speculation about interactions with Pleistocene humans:
    did hominins scavenge on elephants that died a natural death? or maybe even hunt some individuals?
    Our archaeo-zoological study of the largest P.antiquus assemblage known (excavated from 125-ka lake deposits in Germany) shows:
    hunting of elephants (up to 13 metric tons) was part of the cultural repertoire of Last Interglacial Hn there, over 2000 yrs.
    The intensity & nutritional yields of these well-documented butchering activities + previously reported data from this Neumark-Nord site complex suggest:
    Hn were less mobile, and operated within social units substantially larger than commonly envisaged.

    Well possible Hn hunted Pal.antiquus sometimes.
    There's also no doubt they still frequently dived:
    - pachy-osteo-sclerosis He>Hn>Hs,
    - huge brain Hn>Hs>>He>>ape-apith: DHA etc.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pandora@21:1/5 to littoral.homo@gmail.com on Thu Feb 2 15:49:48 2023
    On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 14:59:22 -0800 (PST), "littor...@gmail.com" <littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:

    Hunting and processing of straight-tusked elephants 125.000 years ago: >implications for Neanderthal behavior >https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.add8186
    Palaeoloxodon antiquus were the largest Pleistocene terrestrial mammals in Eurasia between 800 & 100 ka.
    The occasional co-occurrence of their skeletal remains with stone tools has generated rich speculation about interactions with Pleistocene humans:
    did hominins scavenge on elephants that died a natural death? or maybe even hunt some individuals?
    Our archaeo-zoological study of the largest P.antiquus assemblage known (excavated from 125-ka lake deposits in Germany) shows:
    hunting of elephants (up to 13 metric tons) was part of the cultural repertoire of Last Interglacial Hn there, over 2000 yrs.
    The intensity & nutritional yields of these well-documented butchering activities + previously reported data from this Neumark-Nord site complex suggest:
    Hn were less mobile, and operated within social units substantially larger than commonly envisaged.

    Well possible Hn hunted Pal.antiquus sometimes.
    There's also no doubt they still frequently dived:
    - pachy-osteo-sclerosis He>Hn>Hs,
    - huge brain Hn>Hs>>He>>ape-apith: DHA etc.

    Who needs shellfish when you've got 13 metric tons of meat, marrow,
    fat, and brain tissue?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Primum Sapienti@21:1/5 to Pandora on Thu Feb 2 11:45:00 2023
    Pandora wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 14:59:22 -0800 (PST), "littor...@gmail.com" <littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:

    Hunting and processing of straight-tusked elephants 125.000 years ago:
    implications for Neanderthal behavior
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.add8186
    Palaeoloxodon antiquus were the largest Pleistocene terrestrial mammals in Eurasia between 800 & 100 ka.
    The occasional co-occurrence of their skeletal remains with stone tools has generated rich speculation about interactions with Pleistocene humans:
    did hominins scavenge on elephants that died a natural death? or maybe even hunt some individuals?
    Our archaeo-zoological study of the largest P.antiquus assemblage known (excavated from 125-ka lake deposits in Germany) shows:
    hunting of elephants (up to 13 metric tons) was part of the cultural repertoire of Last Interglacial Hn there, over 2000 yrs.
    The intensity & nutritional yields of these well-documented butchering activities + previously reported data from this Neumark-Nord site complex suggest:
    Hn were less mobile, and operated within social units substantially larger than commonly envisaged.

    Well possible Hn hunted Pal.antiquus sometimes.
    There's also no doubt they still frequently dived:
    - pachy-osteo-sclerosis He>Hn>Hs,
    - huge brain Hn>Hs>>He>>ape-apith: DHA etc.

    Who needs shellfish when you've got 13 metric tons of meat, marrow,
    fat, and brain tissue?


    Not to mention hides and hair. mv and the aa crowd don't
    ever think of keeping warm in winter. Can't wear shells or
    fish skins to keep warm...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From littoral.homo@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 2 11:12:58 2023
    kudu runner:

    Who needs shellfish when you've got 13 metric tons of meat, marrow,
    fat, and brain tissue?

    :-D And hasn't our little boy heard of DHA etc.etc.???

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From JTEM is so reasonable@21:1/5 to Pandora on Thu Feb 2 12:15:11 2023
    Pandora wrote:

    Who needs shellfish when you've got 13 metric tons of meat, marrow,
    fat, and brain tissue?

    Anyone caught after something like Toba, when 13 tons of meat is the first thing to
    die during a volcanic winter that lasts a decade or a century...

    The coastal (Aquatic) population can survive though.




    -- --

    https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/708096065487929344

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From littoral.homo@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 2 11:16:37 2023
    Op woensdag 1 februari 2023 om 23:59:24 UTC+1 schreef littor...@gmail.com:
    Hunting and processing of straight-tusked elephants 125.000 years ago: implications for Neanderthal behavior https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.add8186
    Palaeoloxodon antiquus were the largest Pleistocene terrestrial mammals in Eurasia between 800 & 100 ka.
    The occasional co-occurrence of their skeletal remains with stone tools has generated rich speculation about interactions with Pleistocene humans:
    did hominins scavenge on elephants that died a natural death? or maybe even hunt some individuals?
    Our archaeo-zoological study of the largest P.antiquus assemblage known (excavated from 125-ka lake deposits in Germany) shows:
    hunting of elephants (up to 13 metric tons) was part of the cultural repertoire of Last Interglacial Hn there, over 2000 yrs.
    The intensity & nutritional yields of these well-documented butchering activities + previously reported data from this Neumark-Nord site complex suggest:
    Hn were less mobile, and operated within social units substantially larger than commonly envisaged.

    Well possible Hn hunted Pal.antiquus sometimes.

    Apparently the kudu runners couldn't read that sentence...

    There's also no doubt they still frequently dived:
    - pachy-osteo-sclerosis He>Hn>Hs,
    - huge brain Hn>Hs>>He>>ape-apith: DHA etc.

    The kudu runners are even too stupid to see the differences between He, Hn & Hs,
    e.g.
    - pachy-osteo-sclerosis He>Hn>Hs,
    - CC Hn>Hs>>He>>ape-apith: DHA etc.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From JTEM is so reasonable@21:1/5 to Pandora on Thu Feb 2 13:58:22 2023
    Pandora wrote:

    Hunting and processing of straight-tusked elephants 125.000 years ago: Implications for Neanderthal behavior

    You can study Neandethal coprolites if you want:

    https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/708063715696820224

    Wear gloves.





    -- --

    https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/708063715696820224

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pandora@21:1/5 to invalide@invalid.invalid on Fri Feb 3 12:45:09 2023
    On Thu, 2 Feb 2023 11:45:00 -0700, Primum Sapienti
    <invalide@invalid.invalid> wrote:

    Pandora wrote:
    On Wed, 1 Feb 2023 14:59:22 -0800 (PST), "littor...@gmail.com"
    <littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:

    Hunting and processing of straight-tusked elephants 125.000 years ago:
    implications for Neanderthal behavior
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.add8186
    Palaeoloxodon antiquus were the largest Pleistocene terrestrial mammals in Eurasia between 800 & 100 ka.
    The occasional co-occurrence of their skeletal remains with stone tools has generated rich speculation about interactions with Pleistocene humans:
    did hominins scavenge on elephants that died a natural death? or maybe even hunt some individuals?
    Our archaeo-zoological study of the largest P.antiquus assemblage known (excavated from 125-ka lake deposits in Germany) shows:
    hunting of elephants (up to 13 metric tons) was part of the cultural repertoire of Last Interglacial Hn there, over 2000 yrs.
    The intensity & nutritional yields of these well-documented butchering activities + previously reported data from this Neumark-Nord site complex suggest:
    Hn were less mobile, and operated within social units substantially larger than commonly envisaged.

    Well possible Hn hunted Pal.antiquus sometimes.
    There's also no doubt they still frequently dived:
    - pachy-osteo-sclerosis He>Hn>Hs,
    - huge brain Hn>Hs>>He>>ape-apith: DHA etc.

    Who needs shellfish when you've got 13 metric tons of meat, marrow,
    fat, and brain tissue?


    Not to mention hides and hair. mv and the aa crowd don't
    ever think of keeping warm in winter. Can't wear shells or
    fish skins to keep warm...

    Maybe they had a thick layer of blubber, which made them look like a
    cetacean: https://postimg.cc/3WwVGx68

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From littoral.homo@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 3 04:40:46 2023
    Maybe they had a thick layer of blubber, which made them look like a cetacean: https://postimg.cc/3WwVGx68

    Fig.1 from Med.Hypoth.16:17-32, 1985
    "The Aquatic Ape Theory: evidence and a possible scenario"

    :-) Perfect! Thanks a lot!
    Where did you find this, my boy?

    I made this sketch in 1985 already, when I still was so stupid as to believe that we descended from apiths:

    Fig.1 – Reconstruction of a swimming ancestor
    If the AAT is true, our ancestors must have been +-streamlined, to reduce water resistance & heat loss.
    I have tried to reconstruct a side-view of a late Pliocene male Homo, swimming under water.
    The sketch is based on the picture of a human skeleton (49), modified as follows:
    - The head is dorsi-flexed (to set the eyes in the swimming-direction, as in all mammals swimming under water).
    - The brain skull is lower, smaller & shifted dorsally (as in the “platycephalic” Java man).
    - The jaws are more robust. A chin is missing (as in all extinct hominoids).
    - The foramen magnum lies a little bit more dorsally (as in e.g. A.africanus (50)).
    - Sacrum & coccyx are somewhat less projecting dorsally (as in early hominid pelves: before the great enlargement of the newborn’s brain, the present-day broad pelvic passage was unnecessary).
    - The knee region is a bit smaller. The tibia & ankle region is a lot smaller (as in australopiths (51)), but the feet are rel.broader (as in the Laetolil footprints, see C).
    Upon this modified skeleton, I have sketched a +-thick-bellied man (see B), with baldness, uncut neck-hair, beard & moustache (see D).
    The dorsally projecting portion of the glutaeus maximus muscle is drawn a little bit smaller (only in complete BPity it became important in fully extending the hip joints (52).)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pandora@21:1/5 to littoral.homo@gmail.com on Sat Feb 4 12:07:09 2023
    On Fri, 3 Feb 2023 04:40:46 -0800 (PST), "littor...@gmail.com" <littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:

    Maybe they had a thick layer of blubber, which made them look like a
    cetacean: https://postimg.cc/3WwVGx68

    Fig.1 from Med.Hypoth.16:17-32, 1985
    "The Aquatic Ape Theory: evidence and a possible scenario"

    :-) Perfect! Thanks a lot!
    Where did you find this, my boy?

    I made this sketch in 1985 already, when I still was so stupid as to believe that we descended from apiths:

    Fig.1 Reconstruction of a swimming ancestor
    If the AAT is true, our ancestors must have been +-streamlined, to reduce water resistance & heat loss.
    I have tried to reconstruct a side-view of a late Pliocene male Homo, swimming under water.
    The sketch is based on the picture of a human skeleton (49), modified as follows:
    - The head is dorsi-flexed (to set the eyes in the swimming-direction, as in all mammals swimming under water).
    - The brain skull is lower, smaller & shifted dorsally (as in the platycephalic Java man).
    - The jaws are more robust. A chin is missing (as in all extinct hominoids). >- The foramen magnum lies a little bit more dorsally (as in e.g. A.africanus (50)).
    - Sacrum & coccyx are somewhat less projecting dorsally (as in early hominid pelves: before the great enlargement of the newborns brain, the present-day broad pelvic passage was unnecessary).
    - The knee region is a bit smaller. The tibia & ankle region is a lot smaller (as in australopiths (51)), but the feet are rel.broader (as in the Laetolil footprints, see C).
    Upon this modified skeleton, I have sketched a +-thick-bellied man (see B), with baldness, uncut neck-hair, beard & moustache (see D).
    The dorsally projecting portion of the glutaeus maximus muscle is drawn a little bit smaller (only in complete BPity it became important in fully extending the hip joints (52).)

    And then came the Nariokotome skeleton and the Ileret footprints that
    proved you wrong in several respects.

    For example, the feet were not relatively broader: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1168132

    and the foramen magnum was not positioned more dorsally, as in A.
    africanus, but more anteriorly as in modern humans: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jhevol.2017.07.009

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From littoral.homo@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 4 05:02:42 2023
    Kudu runner:

    Maybe they had a thick layer of blubber, which made them look like a
    cetacean: https://postimg.cc/3WwVGx68

    Fig.1 from Med.Hypoth.16:17-32, 1985
    "The Aquatic Ape Theory: evidence and a possible scenario"
    :-) Perfect! Thanks a lot!
    Where did you find this, my boy?
    I made this sketch in 1985 already, when I still was so stupid as to believe that we descended from apiths:
    Fig.1 – Reconstruction of a swimming ancestor
    If the AAT is true, our ancestors must have been +-streamlined, to reduce water resistance & heat loss.
    I have tried to reconstruct a side-view of a late Pliocene male Homo, swimming under water.
    The sketch is based on the picture of a human skeleton (49), modified as follows:
    - The head is dorsi-flexed (to set the eyes in the swimming-direction, as in all mammals swimming under water).
    - The brain skull is lower, smaller & shifted dorsally (as in the “platycephalic” Java man).
    - The jaws are more robust. A chin is missing (as in all extinct hominoids).
    - The foramen magnum lies a little bit more dorsally (as in e.g. A.africanus (50)).
    - Sacrum & coccyx are somewhat less projecting dorsally (as in early hominid pelves: before the great enlargement of the newborn’s brain, the present-day broad pelvic passage was unnecessary).
    - The knee region is a bit smaller. The tibia & ankle region is a lot smaller (as in australopiths (51)), but the feet are rel.broader (as in the Laetolil footprints, see C).
    Upon this modified skeleton, I have sketched a +-thick-bellied man (see B), with baldness, uncut neck-hair, beard & moustache (see D).
    The dorsally projecting portion of the glutaeus maximus muscle is drawn a little bit smaller (only in complete BPity it became important in fully extending the hip joints (52).)

    And then came the Nariokotome skeleton and the Ileret footprints that
    proved you wrong in several respects.

    :-D No, no, my little boy, they confirm my view,
    e.g. young chimps have more humanlike feet than adult chimps.
    _____

    For example, the feet were not relatively broader: https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1168132

    and the foramen magnum was not positioned more dorsally, as in A.
    africanus, but more anteriorly as in modern humans: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jhevol.2017.07.009

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pandora@21:1/5 to littoral.homo@gmail.com on Sat Feb 4 15:34:00 2023
    On Sat, 4 Feb 2023 05:02:42 -0800 (PST), "littor...@gmail.com" <littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:

    Maybe they had a thick layer of blubber, which made them look like a
    cetacean: https://postimg.cc/3WwVGx68

    Fig.1 from Med.Hypoth.16:17-32, 1985
    "The Aquatic Ape Theory: evidence and a possible scenario"
    :-) Perfect! Thanks a lot!
    Where did you find this, my boy?
    I made this sketch in 1985 already, when I still was so stupid as to believe that we descended from apiths:
    Fig.1 Reconstruction of a swimming ancestor
    If the AAT is true, our ancestors must have been +-streamlined, to reduce water resistance & heat loss.
    I have tried to reconstruct a side-view of a late Pliocene male Homo, swimming under water.
    The sketch is based on the picture of a human skeleton (49), modified as follows:
    - The head is dorsi-flexed (to set the eyes in the swimming-direction, as in all mammals swimming under water).
    - The brain skull is lower, smaller & shifted dorsally (as in the platycephalic Java man).
    - The jaws are more robust. A chin is missing (as in all extinct hominoids).
    - The foramen magnum lies a little bit more dorsally (as in e.g. A.africanus (50)).
    - Sacrum & coccyx are somewhat less projecting dorsally (as in early hominid pelves: before the great enlargement of the newborns brain, the present-day broad pelvic passage was unnecessary).
    - The knee region is a bit smaller. The tibia & ankle region is a lot smaller (as in australopiths (51)), but the feet are rel.broader (as in the Laetolil footprints, see C).
    Upon this modified skeleton, I have sketched a +-thick-bellied man (see B), with baldness, uncut neck-hair, beard & moustache (see D).
    The dorsally projecting portion of the glutaeus maximus muscle is drawn a little bit smaller (only in complete BPity it became important in fully extending the hip joints (52).)

    And then came the Nariokotome skeleton and the Ileret footprints that
    proved you wrong in several respects.

    :-D No, no, my little boy, they confirm my view,
    e.g. young chimps have more humanlike feet than adult chimps.

    Even in a chimp foetus the hallux is already fully abducted: https://search.library.wisc.edu/digital/AGW5I6QEZN6ORI8F/full/AKHIJPQAB263EY8L

    Ontogeny does not recapitulate phylogeny.

    For example, the feet were not relatively broader:
    https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.1168132

    and the foramen magnum was not positioned more dorsally, as in A.
    africanus, but more anteriorly as in modern humans:
    https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jhevol.2017.07.009

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)