"Lucy's skeleton, which is 40 per cent complete, was recovered in Ethiopia in what was an ancient lake near fossilized remains of crocodiles, turtle eggs and crab claws."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/lucy-hominin-death-1.3739951
savanna full of crocs, turtles & crabs!
:-DDD
On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 03:01:32 -0800 (PST), "littor...@gmail.com"
"Lucy's skeleton, which is 40 per cent complete, was recovered in Ethiopia in what was an ancient lake near fossilized remains of crocodiles, turtle eggs and crab claws."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/lucy-hominin-death-1.3739951
savanna full of crocs, turtles & crabs! :-DDD
What, you've never seen crocs catching wildebeest and zebra while
crossing the Mara River in the Serengeti-Masai Mara savanna ecosystem?
And not only crocs, turtles, and crabs, but at least 473 freshwater
species. See
https://www.wwfkenya.org/mara_river_biodiversity_report/
Op donderdag 15 december 2022 om 16:47:17 UTC+1 schreef Pandora:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 03:01:32 -0800 (PST), "littor...@gmail.com"
"Lucy's skeleton, which is 40 per cent complete, was recovered in Ethiopia in what was an ancient lake near fossilized remains of crocodiles, turtle eggs and crab claws."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/lucy-hominin-death-1.3739951
savanna full of crocs, turtles & crabs! :-DDD
What, you've never seen crocs catching wildebeest and zebra while
crossing the Mara River in the Serengeti-Masai Mara savanna ecosystem?
And Lucy running after antelopes amid turtles & crabs???
And not only crocs, turtles, and crabs, but at least 473 freshwater
species. See
https://www.wwfkenya.org/mara_river_biodiversity_report/
Thanks, but we're talking about Lucy c 3 Ma, my little boy.
"Lucy's skeleton, which is 40 per cent complete, was recovered in Ethiopia in what was an ancient lake near fossilized remains of crocodiles, turtle eggs and crab claws."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/lucy-hominin-death-1.3739951
savanna full of crocs, turtles & crabs! :-DDD
What, you've never seen crocs catching wildebeest and zebra while
crossing the Mara River in the Serengeti-Masai Mara savanna ecosystem?
And Lucy running after antelopes amid turtles & crabs???
Again, depositional environment after death does not necessarily equal
living environment.
What, you've never seen crocs catching wildebeest and zebra while
crossing the Mara River in the Serengeti-Masai Mara savanna ecosystem?
"Lucy's skeleton, which is 40 per cent complete, was recovered in Ethiopia in what was an ancient lake near fossilized remains of crocodiles, turtle eggs and crab claws."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/lucy-hominin-death-1.3739951
savanna full of crocs, turtles & crabs! :-DDD
Savanna believer:
What, you've never seen crocs catching wildebeest and zebra while
crossing the Mara River in the Serengeti-Masai Mara savanna ecosystem?
And Lucy running after antelopes amid turtles & crabs???
Again, depositional environment after death does not necessarily equal
living environment.
Grow up, little boy!
Stop making a fool of yourself.
Crocodiles, crabs & turtles...
Pandora wrote:
What, you've never seen crocs catching wildebeest and zebra while
crossing the Mara River in the Serengeti-Masai Mara savanna ecosystem?
Well then. Either zebra don't exist or a species can both be preyed upon
by crocs and survive drinking water.
So did you just prove there are no mammals or reptiles in Africa, apart from >crocs, or are you arguing... what?
What are you arguing?
What I'm trying to tell you, dummies, is how even the most iconic
terrestrial savanna animals could get mixed up with a aquatic fauna in
the fossil record.
What I'm trying to tell you, dummies, is how even the most iconic
terrestrial savanna animals could get mixed up with a aquatic fauna in
the fossil record.
https://www.science.org/content/article/every-year-thousands-drowned-wildebeest-feed-african-ecosystem
But then you would need to know something about taphonomy and
sedimentary geology, and that's where an education comes in handy.
Pandora wrote:
What I'm trying to tell you, dummies, is how even the most iconic
terrestrial savanna animals could get mixed up with a aquatic fauna in
the fossil record.
Disarticulated bones. Absolutely. But, even 40% of the skeleton? That
seems unlikely.
https://www.science.org/content/article/every-year-thousands-drowned-wildebeest-feed-african-ecosystem
I don't know how her injuries were determined to be from a fall rather
than from such an event, and even a post mortem carried-down-the
-waters, banging every rock she came across, so I don't really know
how to evaluate it.
But then you would need to know something about taphonomy and
sedimentary geology, and that's where an education comes in handy.
And you'd need to NOT know what the current consensus is that she
died from a fall.
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/lucy-tree-fall-human-ancestor
Personally? I have pointed out that water sources such as rivers are
a prime location for the search of "Missing" fossils, such as Chimps.
It's supposedly never been done before.
Chimps go back MILLIONS of years before Lucy, it is claimed, and not a one has been preserved
in such a manner.
What consensus?
See: https://sci-hub.se/10.1177/0025817217749504
Pandora wrote:
What consensus?Dude, if you need to try to impress anyone you can start by remembering
See: https://sci-hub.se/10.1177/0025817217749504
past threads, what people have stated, instead of pretending that the universe is created anew with each post...
What is my position on Lucy? Do you have the faintest clue? HOW does anything you posted contradict me?
It can't.
Here. You're at least six years behind fossils & rivers:
https://groups.google.com/g/sci.anthropology.paleo/c/1bB9jl_MubY/m/oHpNIAdmCgAJ
Yeah, I'm talking about Chimps but it's not like it matters. Same rivers.
Same process.
Your nonsense doesn't make sense. Lucy is just too complete for a typical river thing, especially a river that can *Slam* a body into rocks with enough
force to mimmic a 40-foot plunge.
For the record, though you never noticed much less remembered before, so
it seems of little use this time: I don't think Lucy was aquaarboreal. Given her age, she had "Aquatic Ape" ancestors that pushed inland and adapted, OR her ancestors were of an "Aquatic Ape" population that crossed paths with and interbreed wth a previous, more archaic group that had split off and moved inland. Put short: Her seemingly aquatic features where a vestige
of her Aquatic Ape ancestry.
I don't think Lucy was the product of some parallel evolutions that just happened to turn out bipedal.
-- --Buy polka dot shroom bars
https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/703387388268953600
On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 08:46:17 -0800 (PST), "littor...@gmail.com" <littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:
Op donderdag 15 december 2022 om 16:47:17 UTC+1 schreef Pandora:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 03:01:32 -0800 (PST), "littor...@gmail.com"
"Lucy's skeleton, which is 40 per cent complete, was recovered in Ethiopia in what was an ancient lake near fossilized remains of crocodiles, turtle eggs and crab claws."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/lucy-hominin-death-1.3739951
savanna full of crocs, turtles & crabs! :-DDD
What, you've never seen crocs catching wildebeest and zebra while
crossing the Mara River in the Serengeti-Masai Mara savanna ecosystem?
And Lucy running after antelopes amid turtles & crabs???
Again, depositional environment after death does not necessarily equal
living environment.
Maybe "Lucy" got a little too close to the water: https://sci-hub.se/10.1177/0025817217749504
And not only crocs, turtles, and crabs, but at least 473 freshwater
species. See
https://www.wwfkenya.org/mara_river_biodiversity_report/
Thanks, but we're talking about Lucy c 3 Ma, my little boy.
"Lucy" (A.L. 288-1) is a representative of Australopithecus afarensis,
a wide-ranging species also known from the type locality at Laetoli
(L.H. 4).
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/212110#page/393/mode/1up
http://www.efossils.org/page/boneviewer/australopithecus%20afarensis/LH%204
Laetoli is well known for its lack of aquatic taxa.
Pandora wrote:
Again, depositional environment after death does not necessarily equal living environment.
mv has been educated on this repeatedly.
Pandora wrote:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 08:46:17 -0800 (PST), "littor...@gmail.com"
<littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:
Op donderdag 15 december 2022 om 16:47:17 UTC+1 schreef Pandora:
On Thu, 15 Dec 2022 03:01:32 -0800 (PST), "littor...@gmail.com"
"Lucy's skeleton, which is 40 per cent complete, was recovered in Ethiopia in what was an ancient lake near fossilized remains of crocodiles, turtle eggs and crab claws."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/lucy-hominin-death-1.3739951
savanna full of crocs, turtles & crabs! :-DDD
What, you've never seen crocs catching wildebeest and zebra while
crossing the Mara River in the Serengeti-Masai Mara savanna ecosystem?
And Lucy running after antelopes amid turtles & crabs???
Again, depositional environment after death does not necessarily equal
living environment.
mv has been educated on this repeatedly.
Maybe "Lucy" got a little too close to the water:
https://sci-hub.se/10.1177/0025817217749504
And not only crocs, turtles, and crabs, but at least 473 freshwater
species. See
https://www.wwfkenya.org/mara_river_biodiversity_report/
Thanks, but we're talking about Lucy c 3 Ma, my little boy.
"Lucy" (A.L. 288-1) is a representative of Australopithecus afarensis,
a wide-ranging species also known from the type locality at Laetoli
(L.H. 4).
https://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/212110#page/393/mode/1up
http://www.efossils.org/page/boneviewer/australopithecus%20afarensis/LH%204 >>
Laetoli is well known for its lack of aquatic taxa.
mv only focuses on anything hominid related and ignores all other
taxa.
To mv the lack of aquatic taxa at Laetoli clearly constitutes a case
of cognitive dissonance.
Apparently he is unable to learn.
o mv the lack of aquatic taxa at Laetoli clearly constitutes a case
of cognitive dissonance.
some kudu runner:
To mv the lack of aquatic taxa at Laetoli clearly constitutes a case
of cognitive dissonance.
footprints made in wet sand :-DDDDD
Rootcasts at the base of these tuffs indicate that they were deposited
on a vegetated landsurface, not a beach. Extensive rainprints indicate
that they got wet through fresh meteoric water, not at the bottom a
large body of standing water.
If you were a real anthropologist instead of a fraud with an aquatic obsession you would have known all this from the relevant sources.
Yeah, it's obvious that MV is your idol and you are his bitch.
with the ideas presented by the good Doctor...
These blind kudu runners are hopeless:
their only "argument":
If you were a real anthropologist instead of a fraud with an aquatic
obsession you would have known all this from the relevant sources.
:-DDD
My little little boy, I've read the whole PA literature & much more,
but apparently you haven't even read my articles & books...
Why not?
Even you can find them in New Scientist, Hum.Evol., Med.Hypoth., Nature etc., I hope?
https://www.academia.edu/276811/Origin_of_Hominid_Bipedalism
"Origin of hominid bipedalism" 1987 Nature 325:305-6
Sinclair cs (1) believe that human bipedalism arose in scavenging hominid ancestors that had to carry their children while following migrating savanna ungulates,
but this seems highly improbable. (to say the least... :-DDD)
There was no empty niche of migrating scavengers to be occupied by hominid ancestors.
Not only vultures, but also canid, felid & hyaenid carnivores were much better preadapted for such a niche.
They possessed sharp beaks or long canine teeth, and did not need to carry stones for cutting carcasses.
Moreover, the BP way of locomotion (whether fast or slow) is inefficient & costly (2,3).
Another argument against the migrating hypothesis in particular & the savannah theory of human evolution in general:
it is highly unlikely that hominid ancestors ever lived in the savannas: Man is the opposite of a savanna inhabitant:
- Humans lack sun-reflecting fur (4), but have thermo-insulative SC fat layers, which are never seen in savanna mammals.
- We have a water- & sodium-wasting cooling system of abundant sweat glands, totally unfit for a dry environment (5).
- Our maximal urine concentration is much too low for a savanna-dwelling mammal (6).
- We need much more water than other primates, and have to drink more often than savanna inhabitants, yet we cannot drink large quantities at a time (7-8).
- The fossils of our hominid ancestors or relatives are always found in water-rich environments.
It is difficult to understand
- why most anthropologists keep believing in the savanna theory (because it goes back to Darwin?),
- why so many anthropologists keep trying to seek the most improbable reasons for bipedalism, while they should know there are much better explanations (9-11).
Well-said, Dr Verhaegen!! :-)
After 36 years, it's still perfect, and no kudu runner in all those years could find an answer... :-D
What is incredible that there are still such idiots who believe their Plio-Pleistocene ancestors ran after antelopes!!
or became BP to carry their children while following migrating savanna ungulates...
:-DDD
These blind kudu runners are hopeless:
their only "argument":
:-DDD
My little little boy, I've read the whole PA literature & much more,
Liar, it's obvious that you haven't read any the following:
And your only publication in Nature was a piece of scientific correspondence, not even a peer reviewed original research article: https://sci-hub.se/10.1038/325305d0
If you were a real anthropologist
Pandora wrote:
Yeah, it's obvious that MV is your idol and you are his bitch.
The good Doctor...
Sorry, it was after 35 years...
Op dinsdag 10 januari 2023 om 21:44:44 UTC+1 schreef Pandora:
...
These blind kudu runners are hopeless:
their only "argument":
snipped by the kudu runner...
:-DDD
My little little boy, I've read the whole PA literature & much more,
Liar, it's obvious that you haven't read any the following:
I have
On Tue, 10 Jan 2023 13:13:29 -0800 (PST), JTEM is so reasonable <jte...@gmail.com> wrote:
Pandora wrote:
Yeah, it's obvious that MV is your idol and you are his bitch.
The good Doctor...
He's a doctor alright, but not because of a degree in anthropology,
but because he's qualified to stick a finger up your ass to examine
your prostate. As his bitch you'd probably like that.
He's a doctor alright, but not because of a degree in anthropology,
Pandora wrote:
He's a doctor alright, but not because of a degree in anthropology,
So he's not an idiot, you're saying.
Hmmm...
arguments of savanna believers:
Then why does he act like one outside his field of expertise?
Pandora wrote:
Then why does he act like one outside his field of expertise?
Look. You're spewing this idiocy, just like we see here. What we
are not seeing is any counter to Aquatic Ape, any competition
what so ever. When you do make a sad attempt at presenting a
counter argument, it's disarticulated. It doesn't fit the observations,
not all of them. It a puzzle piece that doesn't go with any of the
other puzzle pieces...
Start with DHA. It's important. It's necessary. Where did they get
it to grow the bigger brains? You pretend it was insects. Fine. Which >insects. Were they seasonal? What precise Omega-3s did they offer?
How much of each?
Apparently you're not familiar with the philosophy of science
in
particular the concept of falsifiability.
One piece that doesn't fit
can destroy the entire hypothetical puzzle
MV obviously has a hard time with that and desperately wishes it would
go away.
How does a savanna elephant grow a brain 3 times the size of a human
without ever consuming fatty fish?
How does a savanna elephant grow a brain 3 times the size of a human
without ever consuming fatty fish?
How does a savanna elephant grow a brain 3 times the size of a human
without ever consuming fatty fish? https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnana.2014.00046/full
How does a savanna elephant grow a brain 3 times the size of a human without ever consuming fatty fish?
Just did the proverbial 30-second Google search (what passes for
"Exhaustive research," here online) and it turns out elephants eat
as much as 70x as much food by weight as humans. So if they are
dependent on DHA as the human brain is -- and this is something
that has never been shown -- and they are just as bad as we humans
at synthesizing DHA, they still have 70x more opportunity to collect
ALA & synthesize it as we do. Roughly speaking.
But their brains aren't anywhere close to 70x larger, as you testify. ...which brings us full circle:
Where or where were your savanna idiots getting their DHA from?
Pandora wrote:
How does a savanna elephant grow a brain 3 times the size of a human
without ever consuming fatty fish?
Just did the proverbial 30-second Google search (what passes for
"Exhaustive research," here online) and it turns out elephants eat
as much as 70x as much food by weight as humans. So if they are
dependent on DHA as the human brain is -- and this is something
that has never been shown -- and they are just as bad as we humans
at synthesizing DHA, they still have 70x more opportunity to collect
ALA & synthesize it as we do. Roughly speaking.
But their brains aren't anywhere close to 70x larger, as you testify.
...which brings us full circle:
Where or where were your savanna idiots getting their DHA from?
Pandora wrote:
Apparently you're not familiar with the philosophy of science
Science isn't a philosophy. It's a method, a process. People are
idiots. They /Feel/ things, take other things for grants...
"Everybody knows!"
Science exists to eliminate the human element.
in particular the concept of falsifiability.
Hypocrisy is not an argument.
At 7 Ma Sahelanthropus (TM 266-01-60-1) had a cranial capacity of 370
cc, at 3.8 Ma Australopithecus anamensis (MRD-VP-1/1) had a cranial
capacity of 370 cc, and at 3 Ma A. afarensis (A.L. 288-1, "Lucy")
still had a cranial capacity of only 387 cc.
So, for the first 4 million years of human evolution they didn't need
any more brainfood than a chimp.
Hypocrisy is not an argument.
Non sequitur.
There's nothing hypocritical about Laetoli.
It's Lucy without the aquarboreal context.
At 7 Ma Sahelanthropus (TM 266-01-60-1) had a cranial capacity of 370
cc, at 3.8 Ma Australopithecus anamensis (MRD-VP-1/1) had a cranial
capacity of 370 cc, and at 3 Ma A. afarensis (A.L. 288-1, "Lucy")
still had a cranial capacity of only 387 cc.
So, for the first 4 million years of human evolution they didn't need
any more brainfood than a chimp.
Pandora wrote:
Hypocrisy is not an argument.
Non sequitur.
Try this out for size:
There's nothing hypocritical about Laetoli.
How old is it?
I've repeatedly pointed out that evidence for
bipedalism is older than any date you'd care to make up
for the Homo/Pan split.
How does your Laetoli fit into MY
position? How does it fit into any savanna idiocy model?
It's Lucy without the aquarboreal context.
Actually, that's unknown. The context.
But it's also irrelevant.
I agree with everything the good Doctor is saying EXCEPT I
see no reason to call Lucy and her ilk "Aquarboreal." She is
descended from a group that peeled off from the Aquatic
Ape population, pushed inland and started adapted to their
new environment. Maybe they interbred with a population
descended from earlier groups to have peeled off, maybe
not, but she wasn't part of the Aquatic Ape population. She
shared a common ancestor. Who knows? Maybe she was
still genetically close enough to interbreed but more than
likely she was prey to later arrivals from the coast.
I've never been shy about saying this. You've never built
a model that incorporates ALL the evidence.
Maybe the good Doctor is right, maybe Lucy was aquarboreal.
I dunno.
Much of the past is unknown and will forever remain
unknowable.
JTEM is so reasonable
There's nothing hypocritical about Laetoli.
How old is it?
You do not even
I've repeatedly pointed out that evidence for
bipedalism is older than any date you'd care to make up
for the Homo/Pan split.
The oldest cranial and postcranial evidence of terrestrial bipedalism
in hominids is 7 Ma:
Pandora wrote:
JTEM is so reasonable
There's nothing hypocritical about Laetoli.
How old is it?
You do not even
It was a rhetorical question.
You can always try to worm
Pandora wrote:
You can always try to worm
you "cited" some footprints significantly older than bipedalism, thinking >you're "Arguing" against Aquatic Ape, yet if Aquatic Ape is correct then >bipedalism is linked to it and we all agree that bipedalism started long >before your cited footprints. So what you cited is consistent with
Aquatic Ape.
Get it now?
Oops. That was another rhetorical question.
Look at the header of this thread, "Lucy = aquarboreal".
The point of Laetoli is not the terrestrial bipedalism at 3.66 Ma, post-dating the origin of bipedalism by more than 3 My,
but that the
aquarboreal context is missing. No aquatic taxa at this site, no
evidence of large permanent bodies of water. An aquarboreal A.
afarensis is hard to maintain without the aqua.
Look at the header of this thread,
"Lucy = aquarboreal".
The point of Laetoli is not the terrestrial bipedalism at 3.66 Ma, post-dating the origin of bipedalism by more than 3 My, but that the aquarboreal context is missing.
No aquatic taxa at this site, no
evidence of large permanent bodies of water. An aquarboreal A.
afarensis is hard to maintain without the aqua.
Look at the header of this thread, "Lucy = aquarboreal".
The point of Laetoli is not the terrestrial bipedalism at 3.66 Ma,
post-dating the origin of bipedalism by more than 3 My,
??
Miocene Hominoidea were already BP!
but that the
aquarboreal context is missing. No aquatic taxa at this site, no
evidence of large permanent bodies of water. An aquarboreal A.
afarensis is hard to maintain without the aqua.
:-DDD Liar!
- Hadar, Afar Locality: Generally, the sediments represent lacustrine, lake margin, and associated fluvial deposits related to an extensive lake that periodically filled the entire basin Johanson cs 1982
- Hadar AL.333 A.afarensis: The bones were found in swale-like features [] it is very likely that they died and partially rotted at or very near this site [] this group of hominids was buried in streamside gallery woodland Radosevich cs 1992
- Hadar AL.288 gracile A.afarensis: Lucy lay in a small, slow moving stream. Fossil preservation at this locality is excellent, remains of delicate items such as crocodile and turtle eggs and crab claws being found Johanson & Taieb 1976
None of the Miocene hominoids has the skeletal characteristics of
bipedalism,
None of the Miocene hominoids has the skeletal characteristics of
bipedalism
kudu runner:
None of the Miocene hominoids has the skeletal characteristics of bipedalism,:-DDD
These idiots first call "human BPism" simply "BPism", and then say they the other hominids have
a different "BPism". Can you be less scientific??
kudu runner:
None of the Miocene hominoids has the skeletal characteristics of
bipedalism,
:-DDD
These idiots first call "human BPism" simply "BPism", and then say they the other hominids have a different "BPism".
Can you be less scientific??
My little little boy, hylobatids are still BP, and all great apes wade BPly in forest swamps:
all apes have
- a centrally-placed spine (not dorsally as in monkeys),
- a shortened lumbar spine (3-5 instead of 7 as in monkeys),
- no tail,
- very long arms, very broad sternum-thorax-pelvis (vs narrow monkey body),
- dorsal scapulas (vs lateral scapulas as in monkeys),
- etc.
None of the Miocene hominoids has the skeletal characteristics of
bipedalism,
:-DDD
These idiots first call "human BPism" simply "BPism", and then say they the other hominids have a different "BPism".
Can you be less scientific??
My little little boy, hylobatids are still BP, and all great apes wade BPly in forest swamps:
Facultative BP in water can also be observed in cercopithecids: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAiZFhhHEXU
all apes have
- a centrally-placed spine (not dorsally as in monkeys),
- a shortened lumbar spine (3-5 instead of 7 as in monkeys),
- no tail,
- very long arms, very broad sternum-thorax-pelvis (vs narrow monkey body), >- dorsal scapulas (vs lateral scapulas as in monkeys),
- etc.
Those are adaptations for vertical climbing and suspensory
(below-branch) arborealism, not BP (on the ground or in water).
littor...@gmail.com wrote:
kudu runner:
None of the Miocene hominoids has the skeletal characteristics of:-DDD
bipedalism,
These idiots first call "human BPism" simply "BPism", and then say they the other hominids have
a different "BPism". Can you be less scientific??
#1. He cites the Laetoli footprints, popularly believed to have been left behind by
Lucy's ilk, which seem to be "Proof" of bipedal locomotion.
#2. He cites Sahelanthropus tchadensis. I never measured -- not my thing -- but
there are a number of cites that claim the foramen magnum is more human like >than Ardi or even Lucy, more suggestive of bipedalism than is found on Ardi or >Lucy.
I don't believe for one minute that he isn't an Aquatic Ape adherent. He's just
not a supporter of your views.
kudu runner:
None of the Miocene hominoids has the skeletal characteristics of
bipedalism,
:-DDD
These idiots first call "human BPism" simply "BPism", and then say they the other hominids have a different "BPism".
Can you be less scientific??
My little little boy, hylobatids are still BP, and all great apes wade BPly in forest swamps:
Facultative BP in water can also be observed in cercopithecids:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAiZFhhHEXU
Yes, do you understand the word "facultative"??
all apes have
- a centrally-placed spine (not dorsally as in monkeys),
- a shortened lumbar spine (3-5 instead of 7 as in monkeys),
- no tail,
- very long arms, very broad sternum-thorax-pelvis (vs narrow monkey body), >> >- dorsal scapulas (vs lateral scapulas as in monkeys),
- etc.
Those are adaptations for vertical climbing and suspensory
(below-branch) arborealism, not BP (on the ground or in water).
You're becoming more+more ridicululous:
never seen a spider monkey, my little boy??
What else could it be? The pattern of striding bipedalism of these
prints is nearly indistinguishable from that of modern humans, except
for body size dimorphism,
I don't believe for one minute that he isn't an Aquatic Ape adherent. He's just
not a supporter of your views.
It's a pity that Laetoli is the slaying of aquarboreal Lucy by a few
ugly facts.
What else could it be? The pattern of striding bipedalism of these
prints is nearly indistinguishable from that of modern humans, except
for body size dimorphism,
Sigh. Yes, my little boy, that's what we're saying.
Early hominoids waded bipedally in swamp forests,
IOW, when they walked over sand, they made humanlike footprints.
From my book:
ook chimpfetussen hebben mensachtige voeten, die tegen de geboorte handachtig worden, zegt Carleton Coon.
There was no swamp forest at Laetoli, as the absence of aquatic taxa
shows.
There was no swamp forest at Laetoli, as the absence of aquatic taxa
shows.
:-DDD
- Hadar, Afar Locality: Generally, the sediments represent lacustrine, lake margin, and associated fluvial deposits related to an extensive lake that periodically filled the entire basin Johanson cs 1982
- Hadar AL.333 A.afarensis: The bones were found in swale-like features [] it is very likely that they died and partially rotted at or very near this site [] this group of hominids was buried in streamside gallery woodland Radosevich cs 1992
- Hadar AL.288 gracile A.afarensis: Lucy lay in a small, slow moving stream. Fossil preservation at this locality is excellent, remains of delicate items such as crocodile and turtle eggs and crab claws being found Johanson & Taieb 1976
And there was no swamp forest at Hadar either.
kudu runner:.
And there was no swamp forest at Hadar either.
All apiths lived in swamp forests:
-Lukeino KNM-LU 335 pre-australopithecine: The red beds seems to contain marginal lacustrine deposits as indicated by the presence of algal mats and lacustrine bivalves (including complete specimens with valves in the closed position) (Pickford 1975)
-Tabarin KNM-TH 13150 pre-australopithecine: The fauna includes aquatic animals such as molluscs, fish, turtles, crocodiles, and hippotami, along with others that might be found in the vicinity of a lake of river (Ward & Hill 1987).bovines) are rare. Primates are very abundant (WoldeGabriel cs 1994); [] interpreted to have been a closed woodland. At Aramis, aquatic species and large mammals are rare, and colobines make up over 30% of all vertebrate specimens collected (Leakey
-Ardipithecus ramidus: Sedimentological, botanical and faunal evidence suggests a wooded habitat for the Aramis hominids [] Aquatic elements (turtle, fish, crocodile) are rare. Large mammals (hippopotamus, proboscideans, rhinos, equids, giraffids,
-Kanapoi KNM-KP 29281 Australopithecus anamensis: Fish, aquatic reptiles, kudus and monkeys are prevalent. A wide gallery forest would have almost certainly been present on the large river that brought in the sediments (Leakey cs 1995).compatible with a lakeside environment (Brunet cs 1995).
-Chad KT 12 A.cf.afarensis: The non-hominid fauna contains aquatic taxa (such as Siluridae, Trionyx, cf.Tomistoma), taxa adapted to wooded habitats (such as Loxodonta, Kobus, Kolpochoerus) and to more open areas (such as Ceratotherium, Hipparion) []
-Garusi-Laetoli L.H. A. anamensis or afarensis: Teeth and mandible fragments, the hardest skeletal parts which are frequently left over by carnivores (Morden, 1988), come from wind-blown and air-fall tuffs (Leakey cs 1976). Cercopithecine and colobinemonkeys are present (Protsch 1981, Leakey cs 1976).
-Hadar, Afar Locality: Generally, the sediments represent lacustrine, lake margin, and associated fluvial deposits related to an extensive lake that periodically filled the entire basin (Johanson cs 1982)considerations [] suggest that sub-tropical forest was the hominins preferred habitat rather than grassland or bushveld, and the adaptations of these animals was therefore fitted to a forest habitat (Rayner cs 1993, see also Reed 1993, and Wood 1993).
-Hadar AL.333 A.afarensis: The bones were found in swale-like features [] it is very likely that they died and partially rotted at or very near this site [] this group of hominids was buried in streamside gallery woodland (Radosevichcs 1992).
-Hadar AL.288 gracile A.afarensis: Lucy lay in a small, slow moving stream. Fossil preservation at this locality is excellent, remains of delicate items such as crocodile and turtle eggs and crab claws being found (Johanson & Taieb 1976).
-Makapan A.africanus: [] very different conditions from those prevailing today. Higher rainfall, fertile, alkaline soils and moderate relief supported significant patches of sub-tropical forest and thick bush, rather than savannah. Taphonomic
-Taung australopithecine: the clayey matrix from which the Taung cranium was extracted, and the frequent occurrence of calcite veins and void fillings within it (Butzer 1974, 1980) do suggest a more humid environment during its accumulation (Partridge1985).
-Sterkfontein A.africanus and Swartkrans A.robustus: Many South African australopithecines are discovered in riverside caves, presumably often filled with the remainders of the consumption process of large felids (Brain 1981).common than Homo both in channel and floodplain deposits. The gracile hominids [] seem to be more restricted ecologically to the lake margin than are the robust forms (Conroy 1990).
-Kromdraai: A.robustus was found near grassveld and streamside or marsh vegetation, in the vicinity of quail, pipits, starlings, swallows, and parrots, lovebirds and similar psittacine birds (T.N.Pocock in Brain 1981).
-Turkana KNM-ER 17000 and 16005: A.aethiopicus was discovered near the boundary between overbank deposits of large perennial river and alluvial fan deposits, amid water- and reedbucks (Walker cs 1986).
-Lake Turkana: The lake margins were generally swampy, with extensive areas of mudflats [] Australopithecus boisei was more abundant in fluvial environments, whereas Homo habilis was rare in such environments [] Australopithecus fossils are more
-Ileret A.boisei: the fossil sample reflects climatic and ecological environmental conditions differing significantly from those of the present day. At Ilerat, 1.5 Myr ago, climatic conditions must have been cooler and more humid than today, and morefavourable to extensive forests [] The prominence of montane forest is particularly striking [] dominated by Gramineae and Chenopodiaceae appropriate to the margins of a slightly saline or alkaline lake (Bonnefille 1976).
-Konso A.boisei: The highly fossiliferous sands at the mid-section of KGA10 are interpreted to be the middle to distal portions of an alluvial fan, deposited adjacent to, and extending into, a lake. Fossils and artefacts deriving from horizons of sandsand silts are not abraded and show evidence of minimal transport. A large mammalian assemblage has been collected from the deposits, showing a striking dominance of Alcelaphini [] to indicate the presence of extensive dry grasslands at KGA10 (Suwa cs
-Chesowanja A.boisei: The fossiliferous sediments were deposited in a lagoon [] Abundant root casts [] suggest that the embayment was flanked by reeds and the presence of calcareous algae indicates that the lagoon was warm and shallow. Bellamya andcatfish are animals tolerant of relatively stagnant water, and such situation would also be suitable for turtles and crocodiles (Carney cs 1971).
-Olduvai middle Bed I: A.boisei O.H.5 as well as habilis O.H.7 and O.H.62 were found in the most densely vegetated, wettest condition, with the highest lake levels (Walter cs 1991), near ostracods, freshwater snails, fish, and aquatic birds (Conroy 1990); [] the middle Bed-I faunas indicate a very rich closed woodland environment, richer than any part of the present-day savanna biome in Africa [] (Fernndez-Jalvo cs 1998). Fossilized leaves and pollen are rare in the sediments of Beds I and II, but
-Olduvai O.H.24 habilis: Crocodile remains predominate among the faunal material from this site and more than 2,000 teeth were found. Tortoise plates, shells of Urocyclid slugs, fish vertebrae and scales, bird bones and pieces of ostrich eggshell werealso relatively common (Leakey cs 1971).
-Malawi UR 501 early Homo: The Plio-Pleistocene Chiwondo Beds of Northern Malawi have yielded molluscs and fragmented remains of fish, turtles, crocodiles and large mammals [] Microvertebrates and carnivores are virtually unrepresented in theassemblage [] The general ecological setting of the Malawi Rift during the Late Pliocene was a mosaic environment including open and closed, dry and wet habitats, and which harbored a small and ecologically unstable paleolake Malawi (Schrenk cs 1995).
-Chemeron KNM-BC1 early Homo: The Fish Beds [] seem to be almost entirely lacustrine and fluviatile; fish remains are abundant [] Molluscs also lived in the lake, and locally their remains accumulate to form shelly limestones (Martyn & Tobias 1967).lacustrine forms (for example, ostracods, molluscs) could invade the area [] The only other fauna found so far in the fossiliferous bed are many opercula of the swamp snail Pila, a few bones of the catfish Synodontis and two fragments of indeterminate
-Turkana Boy KNM-WT 15000 H. erectus: Mammalian fossils are rare at this locality, the most abundant vertebrate fossils being parts of small and large fish. The depositional environment was evidently an alluvial plain of low relief [] Typical
-Mojokerto H. erectus: The basal part of the Putjangan Beds is composed of volcanic breccias containing marine and freshwater molluscs. The rest of the Putjangan Beds is composed of black clays of lacustrine origin (Ninkovich & Burckle 1987).accumulation in quiet water. The cave at this time was probably the locus of ponded water and was probably more open to the atmosphere (Weiner cs 1998).
-Peking H.erectus: A big river and possibly a lake were located to the east and contained various water species; along the shorelines grew reeds and plants, which were home for buffalo, deer, otters, beavers and other animals (Poirier 1978); []
-Hopefield, Rabat & Terra Amata: H.erectus fossils came from sandstone made up from dune sand resting upon a former sea beach (De Lumley 1990). In Terra Amata, there are also indications that the inhabitants ate oysters, mussels and limpets shells ofwhich are present. The presence of fish bones and fish vertebrae indicate that the population also fished (Poirier 1987).
Pickford 1975).All apiths lived in swamp forests:
-Lukeino KNM-LU 335 “pre-australopithecine”: ‘The red beds seems to contain marginal lacustrine deposits as indicated by the presence of algal mats and lacustrine bivalves (including complete specimens with valves in the closed position)’ (
giraffids, bovines) are rare. Primates are very abundant’ (WoldeGabriel cs 1994); ‘[…] interpreted to have been a closed woodland. At Aramis, aquatic species and large mammals are rare, and colobines make up over 30% of all vertebrate specimens-Tabarin KNM-TH 13150 “pre-australopithecine”: ‘The fauna includes aquatic animals such as molluscs, fish, turtles, crocodiles, and hippotami, along with others that might be found in the vicinity of a lake of river’ (Ward & Hill 1987).
-Ardipithecus ramidus: ‘Sedimentological, botanical and faunal evidence suggests a wooded habitat for the Aramis hominids […] Aquatic elements (turtle, fish, crocodile) are rare. Large mammals (hippopotamus, proboscideans, rhinos, equids,
] compatible with a lakeside environment’ (Brunet cs 1995).-Kanapoi KNM-KP 29281 Australopithecus anamensis: Fish, aquatic reptiles, kudus and monkeys are prevalent. ‘A wide gallery forest would have almost certainly been present on the large river that brought in the sediments’ (Leakey cs 1995).
-Chad KT 12 A.cf.afarensis: ‘The non-hominid fauna contains aquatic taxa (such as Siluridae, Trionyx, cf.Tomistoma), taxa adapted to wooded habitats (such as Loxodonta, Kobus, Kolpochoerus) and to more open areas (such as Ceratotherium, Hipparion) [
monkeys are present (Protsch 1981, Leakey cs 1976).-Garusi-Laetoli L.H. A. anamensis or afarensis: Teeth and mandible fragments, the hardest skeletal parts which are frequently left over by carnivores (Morden, 1988), come from wind-blown and air-fall tuffs (Leakey cs 1976). Cercopithecine and colobine
1992).-Hadar, Afar Locality: ‘Generally, the sediments represent lacustrine, lake margin, and associated fluvial deposits related to an extensive lake that periodically filled the entire basin’ (Johanson cs 1982)
-Hadar AL.333 A.afarensis: ‘The bones were found in swale-like features […] it is very likely that they died and partially rotted at or very near this site […] this group of hominids was buried in streamside gallery woodland’ (Radosevichcs
considerations […] suggest that sub-tropical forest was the hominins’ preferred habitat rather than grassland or bushveld, and the adaptations of these animals was therefore fitted to a forest habitat’ (Rayner cs 1993, see also Reed 1993, and Wood-Hadar AL.288 gracile A.afarensis: Lucy lay in a small, slow moving stream. ‘Fossil preservation at this locality is excellent, remains of delicate items such as crocodile and turtle eggs and crab claws being found’ (Johanson & Taieb 1976).
-Makapan A.africanus: ‘[…] very different conditions from those prevailing today. Higher rainfall, fertile, alkaline soils and moderate relief supported significant patches of sub-tropical forest and thick bush, rather than savannah. Taphonomic
Partridge 1985).-Taung australopithecine: ‘the clayey matrix from which the Taung cranium was extracted, and the frequent occurrence of calcite veins and void fillings within it (Butzer 1974, 1980) do suggest a more humid environment during its accumulation’ (
more common than Homo both in channel and floodplain deposits. The gracile hominids […] seem to be more restricted ecologically to the lake margin than are the robust forms’ (Conroy 1990).-Sterkfontein A.africanus and Swartkrans A.robustus: Many South African australopithecines are discovered in riverside caves, presumably often filled with the remainders of the consumption process of large felids (Brain 1981).
-Kromdraai: A.robustus was found near grassveld and streamside or marsh vegetation, in the vicinity of quail, pipits, starlings, swallows, and parrots, lovebirds and similar psittacine birds (T.N.Pocock in Brain 1981).
-Turkana KNM-ER 17000 and 16005: A.aethiopicus was discovered near the boundary between overbank deposits of large perennial river and alluvial fan deposits, amid water- and reedbucks (Walker cs 1986).
-Lake Turkana: ‘The lake margins were generally swampy, with extensive areas of mudflats […] Australopithecus boisei was more abundant in fluvial environments, whereas Homo habilis was rare in such environments […] Australopithecus fossils are
more favourable to extensive forests […] The prominence of montane forest is particularly striking […] dominated by Gramineae and Chenopodiaceae appropriate to the margins of a slightly saline or alkaline lake’ (Bonnefille 1976).-Ileret A.boisei: ‘the fossil sample reflects climatic and ecological environmental conditions differing significantly from those of the present day. At Ilerat, 1.5 Myr ago, climatic conditions must have been cooler and more humid than today, and
sands and silts are not abraded and show evidence of minimal transport. A large mammalian assemblage has been collected from the deposits, showing a striking dominance of Alcelaphini […] to indicate the presence of extensive dry grasslands at KGA10’ (-Konso A.boisei: ‘The highly fossiliferous sands at the mid-section of KGA10 are interpreted to be the middle to distal portions of an alluvial fan, deposited adjacent to, and extending into, a lake. Fossils and artefacts deriving from horizons of
Bellamya and catfish are animals tolerant of relatively stagnant water, and such situation would also be suitable for turtles and crocodiles’ (Carney cs 1971).-Chesowanja A.boisei: ‘The fossiliferous sediments were deposited in a lagoon […] Abundant root casts […] suggest that the embayment was flanked by reeds and the presence of calcareous algae indicates that the lagoon was warm and shallow.
1990); ‘[…] the middle Bed-I faunas indicate a very rich closed woodland environment, richer than any part of the present-day savanna biome in Africa […]’ (Fernández-Jalvo cs 1998). ‘Fossilized leaves and pollen are rare in the sediments of-Olduvai middle Bed I: A.boisei O.H.5 as well as habilis O.H.7 and O.H.62 were found in the most densely vegetated, wettest condition, with the highest lake levels (Walter cs 1991), near ostracods, freshwater snails, fish, and aquatic birds (Conroy
were also relatively common (Leakey cs 1971).-Olduvai O.H.24 habilis: ‘Crocodile remains predominate among the faunal material from this site and more than 2,000 teeth were found. Tortoise plates, shells of Urocyclid slugs, fish vertebrae and scales, bird bones and pieces of ostrich eggshell
assemblage […] The general ecological setting of the Malawi Rift during the Late Pliocene was a mosaic environment including open and closed, dry and wet habitats, and which harbored a small and ecologically unstable paleolake Malawi’ (Schrenk cs-Malawi UR 501 early Homo: ‘The Plio-Pleistocene Chiwondo Beds of Northern Malawi have yielded molluscs and fragmented remains of fish, turtles, crocodiles and large mammals […] Microvertebrates and carnivores are virtually unrepresented in the
Tobias 1967).-Chemeron KNM-BC1 early Homo: ‘The Fish Beds […] seem to be almost entirely lacustrine and fluviatile; fish remains are abundant […] Molluscs also lived in the lake, and locally their remains accumulate to form shelly limestones’ (Martyn &
lacustrine forms (for example, ostracods, molluscs) could invade the area […] The only other fauna found so far in the fossiliferous bed are many opercula of the swamp snail Pila, a few bones of the catfish Synodontis and two fragments of indeterminate-Turkana Boy KNM-WT 15000 H. erectus: ‘Mammalian fossils are rare at this locality, the most abundant vertebrate fossils being parts of small and large fish. The depositional environment was evidently an alluvial plain of low relief […] Typical
…] accumulation in quiet water. The cave at this time was probably the locus of ponded water and was probably more open to the atmosphere’ (Weiner cs 1998).-Mojokerto H. erectus: ‘The basal part of the Putjangan Beds is composed of volcanic breccias containing marine and freshwater molluscs. The rest of the Putjangan Beds is composed of black clays of lacustrine origin’ (Ninkovich & Burckle 1987).
-Peking H.erectus: ‘A big river and possibly a lake were located to the east and contained various water species; along the shorelines grew reeds and plants, which were home for buffalo, deer, otters, beavers and other animals’ (Poirier 1978); ‘[
shells of which are present. The presence of fish bones and fish vertebrae indicate that the population also fished’ (Poirier 1987).-Hopefield, Rabat & Terra Amata: H.erectus fossils came from sandstone made up from dune sand resting upon a former sea beach (De Lumley 1990). In Terra Amata, ‘there are also indications that the inhabitants ate oysters, mussels and limpets –
That's a Gish gallop in the form of quote mining:
That's a Gish gallop in the form of quote mining:
Don't be ridiculous, my little little boy:
just admit: you have 00000.
Don't be ridiculous, my little little boy:
The persistant name-calling is what's really infantile.
On Fri, 13 Jan 2023 23:13:52 -0800 (PST), JTEM is so reasonable <jtem01@gmail.com> wrote:
Pandora wrote:
Hypocrisy is not an argument.
Non sequitur.
Try this out for size:
There's nothing hypocritical about Laetoli.
How old is it?
You do not even know how old Laetoli is?!
That's a fine illustration of your ignorance.
https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-90-481-9956-3_4
You're not even close to the level of equally well-informed
discussants.
I've repeatedly pointed out that evidence for
bipedalism is older than any date you'd care to make up
for the Homo/Pan split.
The oldest cranial and postcranial evidence of terrestrial bipedalism
in hominids is 7 Ma:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-04901-z
Accounting for uncertainties in estimates of effective population size
of the human-ape ancestor, the human-chimpanzee split time is in the
range of 6.5-9.3 Mya and the human-gorilla split in the range of
9.3-12.2 Mya, on the basis of the more clocklike CpG transitions in
whole genomes:
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1600374113
How does your Laetoli fit into MY
position? How does it fit into any savanna idiocy model?
"The evidence from a wide range of analyses indicates that a mosaic of
closed woodland, open woodland, shrubland and grassland dominated the paleoecology of the Upper Laetolil Beds. The region would have been
dry for most of the year, except for the possible occurrence of
permanent springs along the margin of the Eyasi Plateau and ephemeral
pools and rivers during the rainy season." https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-90-481-9962-4_1
That sounds more like savanna then permanent swamp or beach.
It's Lucy without the aquarboreal context.
Actually, that's unknown. The context.
With more than 25000 fossils recovered, including vertebrates,
invertebrates, plants, and over 9000 animal footprints, the
paleoecological context of Laetoli is known in more detail than at any
other hominin site.
But it's also irrelevant.
Really, the environment of evolutionary adaptedness is irrelevant to
human evolution? Then throw AAT out the window.
He makes videos and believes in space aliens.
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