IMO
-aquarboreal Hominoidea originated in coastal forests of the archipelagoes between India & Eurasia c 40?30 Ma (plate tectonics),
-aquarboreal hominids s.l. (vs. pongids) lived in Tethys Sea coastal forests c 30-6 Ma,
-aquarboreal hominids s.s. (HPG) lived in Red Sea coastal forests c 10-5 Ma, -Pleistocene shallow-diving Homo (no "ape" any more) came from the Asian Ind.Ocean coasts: Java, Flores...


We underwent 2 drastic anatomical changes vs "monkeys":
1) apes: wading-climbing hominoids after c 30 Ma: bipedalism, very broad sternum & thorax, tail loss, larger body size, centrally-placed spine, arm-hanging...
2) humans: archaic Homo after c 2 Ma: very large brain (x3), pachyosteosclerosis, platycephaly, platymeria... = frequent diving.

Perhaps (1) might have been even more profound than (2), but partly?largely disappeared (partly in parallel, e.g.->knuckle-walking P//G) in (early?-)Pleistocene apes.

Island animals (Indian archipelagoes c 30 Ma) are often anatomically very special (1),
but I don't know if this was also the case in archaic Homo (2), e.g. Flores??

"Out of Africa" is nonsense IMO: perhaps late-Pleistocene <80 ka? when we had evolved the enzymes for MC- ->LC-PUFAs?

Only incredible imbeciles still believe they descend from antelope runners.

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On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 04:19:22 -0800 (PST), "littor...@gmail.com" <littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:

IMO
-aquarboreal Hominoidea originated in coastal forests of the archipelagoes between India & Eurasia c 40?30 Ma (plate tectonics),

Where's the evidence?
Oldest known hominoids, Rukwapithecus and Kamoyapithecus, are from
inland sites in Africa ~25 Ma.
https://www.nature.com/articles/nature12161

-aquarboreal hominids s.l. (vs. pongids) lived in Tethys Sea coastal forests c 30-6 Ma,
-aquarboreal hominids s.s. (HPG) lived in Red Sea coastal forests c 10-5 Ma,

Where's the evidence?
At ~7 Ma Sahelanthropus was recovered 2500 km to the west
(Toros-Menalla, Chad).
At ~6 Ma Orrorin was recovered far to the south (Tugen Hills, Kenya)
At ~5.2-5.8 Ma Ardipithecus kadabba was recovered from the Middle
Awash, Ethiopia.

-Pleistocene shallow-diving Homo (no "ape" any more) came from the Asian Ind.Ocean coasts: Java, Flores...

Where's the evidence?
Oldest Homo is from Africa. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.23387

Oldest H. erectus/ergaster is from (South-)Africa. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.aaw7293

Oldest H. sapiens is from Africa. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-04275-8

"Out of Africa" is nonsense IMO

With all the counter-evidence your opinion counts for nothing.

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IMO
-aquarboreal Hominoidea originated in coastal forests of the archipelagoes between India & Eurasia c 40?30 Ma (plate tectonics),

kudu runner:

Where's the evidence?
Oldest known hominoids, Rukwapithecus and Kamoyapithecus, are from
inland sites in Africa ~25 Ma.

So?? My little little boy, when are you finally growing up??
Can't you read & think a *little* bit??
Why do you believe that aquarboreal apes could not have followed the rivers???

Think a bit: earliest hominoids = before the great/lesser ape split: hylobatids = SE.Asia, pongids = SE.Asia.
You're ridiculously afrocentric.
Never heard of retroviral DNA?? e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol 3:1-11: Pliocene Homo NOT in Africa!
And never heard of parallel evolution??

And haven't you even *read* what I wrote??:

IMO
-aquarboreal Hominoidea originated in coastal forests of the archipelagoes between India & Eurasia c 40?30 Ma (plate tectonics),
-aquarboreal hominids s.l. (vs. pongids) lived in Tethys Sea coastal forests c 30-6 Ma,
-aquarboreal hominids s.s. (HPG) lived in Red Sea coastal forests c 10-5 Ma, -Pleistocene shallow-diving Homo (no "ape" any more) came from the Asian Ind.Ocean coasts: Java, Flores...

We underwent 2 drastic anatomical changes vs "monkeys":
1) apes: wading-climbing hominoids after c 30 Ma: bipedalism, very broad sternum & thorax, tail loss, larger body size, centrally-placed spine, arm-hanging...
2) humans: archaic Homo after c 2 Ma: very large brain (x3), pachyosteosclerosis, platycephaly, platymeria... = frequent diving.

Perhaps (1) might have been even more profound than (2), but partly?largely disappeared (partly in parallel, e.g.->knuckle-walking P//G) in (early?-)Pleistocene apes.

Island animals (Indian archipelagoes c 30 Ma) are often anatomically very special (1),
but I don't know if this was also the case in archaic Homo (2), e.g. Flores??

"Out of Africa" is *nonsense* IMO: perhaps late-Pleistocene <80 ka? when we had evolved the enzymes for MC- ->LC-PUFAs?
Big brains = long-chain-poly-unsaturated fatty acids (DHA etc.): only after c 80 ka, we didn't need any more aquatic foods!

Only *incredible* imbeciles still believe they descend from antelope runners. Stop wasting my time: use your brain(??) a bit.

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On Sun, 27 Nov 2022 06:56:24 -0800 (PST), "littor...@gmail.com" <littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:

IMO
-aquarboreal Hominoidea originated in coastal forests of the archipelagoes between India & Eurasia c 40?30 Ma (plate tectonics),

kudu runner:

Where's the evidence?
Oldest known hominoids, Rukwapithecus and Kamoyapithecus, are from
inland sites in Africa ~25 Ma.

So?? My little little boy, when are you finally growing up??
Can't you read & think a *little* bit??
Why do you believe that aquarboreal apes could not have followed the rivers???

I don't know any "aquarboreal" apes.
All the extant ones have nothing "aquarboreal" about them.

Think a bit: earliest hominoids = before the great/lesser ape split: hylobatids = SE.Asia, pongids = SE.Asia.
You're ridiculously afrocentric.

Molecular estimates of the divergence date of hylobatids from other
hominoids is at about 17–22 Ma, post-dating the earliest hominoids
from Africa at ~25 Ma.
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jhevol.2022.103251

The logical conclusion is that Asian hominoids have an African source.

Never heard of retroviral DNA?? e.g. Yohn cs 2005 PLoS Biol 3:1-11: Pliocene Homo NOT in Africa!

See discussion in that paper: https://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.0030110#s3

"Several speculative scenarios may be envisioned to explain the
absence of retrovirus in both the orangutan and human lineages."

You mention only one.

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Some kudu runner:

I don't know any "aquarboreal" apes.

:-DDD
And you want to discuss our evolution???

Go to school, my little boy.

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On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 03:26:49 -0800 (PST), "littor...@gmail.com" <littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:

Some kudu runner:

I don't know any "aquarboreal" apes.

:-DDD
And you want to discuss our evolution???

Can you give a definition or an example of a "aquarboreal" ape?

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kudu runner can't google:

Can you give a definition or an example of a "aquarboreal" ape?

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On Mon, 28 Nov 2022 08:31:41 -0800 (PST), "littor...@gmail.com" <littoral.homo@gmail.com> wrote:

kudu runner can't google:

Can you give a definition or an example of a "aquarboreal" ape?

Since you seem to be the expert I thought I'd ask you, but your
evasive answer suggests that you can't give a definition or an
example.

You could apply it to extant lowland gorillas, on occasion when they
forage in a bai, but then the concept would be superfluous because
that's a normal aspect of gorilla ecology, and would tell us us
nothing new.

In short, the neologism "aquarboreal" covers an empty concept that
can't be connected with the ecology of any taxon that distinguishes it
from extant apes.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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Kudu runner can't google "aquarboreal":

Can you give a definition or an example of a "aquarboreal" ape?

Since you seem to be the expert I thought I'd ask you, but your
evasive answer suggests that you can't give a definition or an
example.

You could apply it to extant lowland gorillas, on occasion when they
forage in a bai, but then the concept would be superfluous because
that's a normal aspect of gorilla ecology, and would tell us us
nothing new.

In short, the neologism "aquarboreal" covers an empty concept that
can't be connected with the ecology of any taxon that distinguishes it
from extant apes.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, November 29, 2022 at 11:14:08 AM UTC-5, littor...@gmail.com wrote:

Kudu runner can't google "aquarboreal":

Try it! Google responds: WTF?
:D

Can you give a definition or an example of a "aquarboreal" ape?

Since you seem to be the expert I thought I'd ask you, but your
evasive answer suggests that you can't give a definition or an
example.

You could apply it to extant lowland gorillas, on occasion when they
forage in a bai, but then the concept would be superfluous because
that's a normal aspect of gorilla ecology, and would tell us us
nothing new.

In short, the neologism "aquarboreal" covers an empty concept that
can't be connected with the ecology of any taxon that distinguishes it
from extant apes.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Pandora wrote:

Can you give a definition or an example of a "aquarboreal" ape?

You're setting a precedent here, a standard you can never hope to meet.

"Hypocrisy is not an argument."

Then again, if your point is that no "Aquaboreal" stage is necessary,
I agree. But I also agree that it seems a little too "Magical." That, they stepped on a beach and turned into apes while never returning to
the forests even though they clearly did...

I favor non linear models though, so it's no problem for me at all. I
see no reason why a population might've turned to aquatic resources
only to return to a forest... maybe exploit both when circumstances
allowed... maybe staying waterside, maybe some staying waterside
while others went full-on forest...

Doesn't really matter to me. One is as good as another and all of them
are better than some daft "Savanna" nonsense.

Because *Everywhere* from Oceania to southern Africa. Because DHA.
Because multi regionalism/regional continuity. Etc.

The good Doctor provides us with a model that works, one that explains observations. You have nothing.





-- --

https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/702473103117369344

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