On Friday 29 July 2022 at 21:07:56 UTC+1, littor...@gmail.com wrote:
The scenario below is partly based on ideas of Francesca Mansfield, esp.the Zanclean Flood Hypothesis (6).
If the HP/G split occurred when Gorilla (afarensis etc.) followed the Rift formation
(5), the remarkably parallel evolutions of P // G (e.g. KWing early-Pleist.) suggest
Pan in SE.Africa (africanus etc.) might initially also have followed Rift fm (rather
than the Ind.Ocean coasts)?
And when did the Red Sea begin? If it began with a Rift, the early hominids s.s.(4)
might have followed Rift fm from the beginning?
In that case, a major difference between early-hominids-apiths-apes & Homo might than have that between Rift & *real* coastal (shallow-diving, early-Pleist.?)
adaptations?
A truly absurd line of thinking -- no more
than superstition. You might as well
'explain' evolution by reference to the
activities of the ancient Greek gods, or
to star signs, or whether or not Mars
was in retrograde more than usual.
The scenario below is partly based on ideas of Francesca Mansfield, esp.the Zanclean Flood Hypothesis (6).
If the HP/G split occurred when Gorilla (afarensis etc.) followed the Rift formation
(5), the remarkably parallel evolutions of P // G (e.g. KWing early-Pleist.) suggest
Pan in SE.Africa (africanus etc.) might initially also have followed Rift fm (rather
than the Ind.Ocean coasts)?
And when did the Red Sea begin? If it began with a Rift, the early hominids s.s.(4)
might have followed Rift fm from the beginning?
In that case, a major difference between early-hominids-apiths-apes & Homo might than have that between Rift & *real* coastal (shallow-diving, early-Pleist.?)
adaptations?
Has ANYONE ever 'explained' the
evolution of any taxon as the 'result'
of geological changes?
But even this enormously important
event is not used to 'explain' the
evolution of any new mammalian,
reptile, or plant taxon.
"Isolation is the engine of evolution."
JTEM:
"Isolation is the engine of evolution."
:-)
Whose words are this?
In any case, it's correct, and very very striking in hominoid evolution IMO:
1) India approaching Eurasia = initially island-formation: isolates continental Cercopithecoidea (Old World) from island Hominoidea.
2) India further under Eurasia isolates great (W) from lesser apes (E): great apes colonize W-Tethys Ocean coastal forests.
3) Mesopotamian Seaway closure c 15 Ma isolates pongids (E) from hominids (W).
4) Messinian Salinity Crisis isolates Homo-Pan-Gorilla (Red Sea) from other hominids (Med.Sea)?
5) Initial Afr.Rift fm isolates Gorilla (->E.Afr.apiths) from Homo-Pan (still in Red Sea).
6) Zanclean Flood 5.3 Ma opens Red Sea into Ind.Ocean (Francesca Mansfield), isolating Homo (S-Asia) from Pan (E-Afr.coastal forests->S.Afr.apiths).
Only incredible imbeciles believe they descend from Lucy.
littor...@gmail.com wrote:
1) India approaching Eurasia = initially island-formation: isolates continental Cercopithecoidea (Old World) from island Hominoidea.
2) India further under Eurasia isolates great (W) from lesser apes (E): great apes colonize W-Tethys Ocean coastal forests.
3) Mesopotamian Seaway closure c 15 Ma isolates pongids (E) from hominids (W).
4) Messinian Salinity Crisis isolates Homo-Pan-Gorilla (Red Sea) from other hominids (Med.Sea)?
5) Initial Afr.Rift fm isolates Gorilla (->E.Afr.apiths) from Homo-Pan (still in Red Sea).
6) Zanclean Flood 5.3 Ma opens Red Sea into Ind.Ocean (Francesca Mansfield), isolating Homo (S-Asia) from Pan (E-Afr.coastal forests->S.Afr.apiths).
Why does the topic of human evolution
so readily generate idiocy?
"Isolation is the engine of evolution."
:-) Whose words are this?
I think they're your's!
In any case, it's correct, and very very striking in hominoid evolution IMO:
It is how I describe (sum up) "Punctuated Equilibrium."
I subscribe to it but I don't. What I actually do is incorporate it into the Waterside hypothesis. I would say it's what results in "Multi Regionalism"
or "Regional Continuity." They're both describing the same thing, really,
and neither are possible without Aquatic Ape/Waterside.
1) India approaching Eurasia = initially island-formation: isolates continental Cercopithecoidea (Old World) from island Hominoidea.
2) India further under Eurasia isolates great (W) from lesser apes (E): great apes colonize W-Tethys Ocean coastal forests.
3) Mesopotamian Seaway closure c 15 Ma isolates pongids (E) from hominids (W).
4) Messinian Salinity Crisis isolates Homo-Pan-Gorilla (Red Sea) from other hominids (Med.Sea)?
5) Initial Afr.Rift fm isolates Gorilla (->E.Afr.apiths) from Homo-Pan (still in Red Sea).
6) Zanclean Flood 5.3 Ma opens Red Sea into Ind.Ocean (Francesca Mansfield), isolating Homo (S-Asia) from Pan (E-Afr.coastal forests->S.Afr.apiths).
Only incredible imbeciles believe they descend from Lucy.
I'm a lazy bastard, more of a "Pig Picture" guy. I just say things like "I think
apes originated outside of Africa." I leave the actual work to smarter people,
Doctors & such...
On Sunday 31 July 2022 at 22:15:26 UTC+1, I Envy JTEM wrote:
"Isolation is the engine of evolution."
Goggle it -- it seems to be yours and yours
alone. It's truly remarkable that whenever
anyone says anything non-trivial, the use
of those words is, almost always, unique
And, in this case, it's true.
BUT Marc is NOT talking about isolation.
He looks at the phylogenetic tree of the
hominoid taxon, picks each branching
point, claims to link it to some major
geological event (or maybe even to
some climate change) and declares that
on the branching event, one population
moved north and the other south, or
maybe one went west and the other
east. And, of course, applies it ONLY to
the hominoid/hominid taxon.
This has NOTHING to do with sensible
evolutionary theory. It's childish in the
extreme. No one would ever think of
applying such a scheme to any other
animal or plant taxon.
Why does the topic of human evolution
so readily generate idiocy?
littor...@gmail.com wrote:
1) India approaching Eurasia = initially island-formation: isolates continental Cercopithecoidea (Old World) from island Hominoidea.
2) India further under Eurasia isolates great (W) from lesser apes (E): great apes colonize W-Tethys Ocean coastal forests.
3) Mesopotamian Seaway closure c 15 Ma isolates pongids (E) from hominids (W).
4) Messinian Salinity Crisis isolates Homo-Pan-Gorilla (Red Sea) from other hominids (Med.Sea)?
5) Initial Afr.Rift fm isolates Gorilla (->E.Afr.apiths) from Homo-Pan (still in Red Sea).
6) Zanclean Flood 5.3 Ma opens Red Sea into Ind.Ocean (Francesca Mansfield), isolating Homo (S-Asia) from Pan (E-Afr.coastal forests->S.Afr.apiths).
Somebody:
Why does the topic of human evolutionYes, why do these idiots keep running after antelopes??
so readily generate idiocy?
:-DDD
"Isolation is the engine of evolution."
:-) Whose words are this?
I think they're your's!
If it is, I don't remember... (but I'm becoming old).
On Sunday 31 July 2022 at 22:15:26 UTC+1, I Envy JTEM wrote:
"Isolation is the engine of evolution."
Goggle it -- it seems to be yours and yours
alone. It's truly remarkable that whenever
anyone says anything non-trivial, the use
of those words is, almost always, unique
BUT Marc is NOT talking about isolation.
He looks at the phylogenetic tree of the
hominoid taxon, picks each branching
point, claims to link it to some major
geological event (or maybe even to
some climate change) and declares that
on the branching event, one population
moved north and the other south, or
maybe one went west and the other
east. And, of course, applies it ONLY to
the hominoid/hominid taxon.
This has NOTHING to do with sensible
evolutionary theory.
yelw...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday 31 July 2022 at 22:15:26 UTC+1, I Envy JTEM wrote:
"Isolation is the engine of evolution."Doing the customary 30-second Google search, the oldest I
Goggle it -- it seems to be yours and yours
alone. It's truly remarkable that whenever
anyone says anything non-trivial, the use
of those words is, almost always, unique
found was 2005:
https://groups.google.com/g/talk.origins/c/VhlELa_vm0s/m/rJ1UKDgAg9IJ
Of course Google SUCKS so it probably missed others...
BUT Marc is NOT talking about isolation.Wolpoff invented Multi Regionalism and he was always like,
He looks at the phylogenetic tree of the
hominoid taxon, picks each branching
point, claims to link it to some major
geological event (or maybe even to
some climate change) and declares that
on the branching event, one population
moved north and the other south, or
maybe one went west and the other
east. And, of course, applies it ONLY to
the hominoid/hominid taxon.
"If you want to argue Regional Continuity, fine." it was all six
of one, half dozen of the other to him...
I see pretty much all of this the same way.
Isolation requires mechanisms. Yes you can get the Founder
Effect where as little as a single individual, a pregnant
individual, washes ashore an island and, BAM, you have an
isolated population. It's probably far more often related to
catastrophic events, like major volcanic eruptions, and even
things like plate tectonics.
TEXT BOOK EXAMPLE: Cretaceous era dinosaurs of South
America. They look like Jurassic era dinosaurs. And they kind
of were. Cut off, evolving in isolation, safe from migrations
from Asia, they were Jurassic era dinosaurs allowed to remain
and evolve.
This has NOTHING to do with sensibleIt's a matter of degrees.
evolutionary theory.
Everything fits together. Wolpoff's Multi Regionalism required
an engine, something that moved populations across the globe
then left them there, isolated. The glacial/interglacial cycle does
this, together with natural catastrophes. Ice grows, sea levels
drop and massive highways open up between the lands: The
beaches! The planet warms, the oceans rise and movement is
now difficult at best. Populations are effectively isolated.
This rising & falling would also be a natural pump of sorts, pushing
groups or whole populations inland where they would adapt to
their new environments...
Everything falls into place. It all makes sense. It all matches Aquatic
Ape.
-- --GIGO.
https://jtem.tumblr.com/post/691353674855972864
GIGO.
JTEM:
"Isolation is the engine of evolution."
:-) Whose words are this?
I think they're your's!
If it is, I don't remember... (but I'm becoming old).
"Isolation" here means "separation from each other", of course,
IOW, geological separation causes splitting = obvious (except for kudu runners):
littor...@gmail.com wrote:
JTEM:
"Isolation is the engine of evolution."
:-) Whose words are this?
I think they're your's!
If it is, I don't remember... (but I'm becoming old).
I mean, nothing I'm saying is original to me. I'm taking what you
say and marrying it to what others are saying.
Wolpoff and his Multi Regionalism, but he needed interbreeding.
Eric Trinkaus established that interbreeding as fact, even before
the Neanderthal data was released. But they still needed a way
to drop these people in far flung parts of the world, only to bring
them together again, and that's your Aquatic Ape.
We had all these different groups, these distinct populations but
they were all related, they all shared DNA. And it was Aquatic
Ape that did so.
You need a wire to get electricity to a lamp. You needed the Aquatic
Ape population to get DNA everywhere from Oceania, through Asia,
into Europe and down into southern Africa.
The Aquatic Ape population is the conduit through which humanity
ran. It was the mother population, the one all others split from to
form Neanderthals, Denisovans and any others we probably missed.
The aquatic ape population is what fused humanity into single
species.
As someone of European descent I have ancestors that certain
sub Saharan African can't have. And they have ancestors which I
can't have. But we are both related through our Aquatic Ape
ancestors.
The scenario below is partly based on ideas of Francesca Mansfield, esp.the Zanclean Flood Hypothesis (6).rather than the Ind.Ocean coasts)?
If the HP/G split occurred when Gorilla (afarensis etc.) followed the Rift formation (5), the remarkably parallel evolutions of P // G (e.g. KWing early-Pleist.) suggest Pan in SE.Africa (africanus etc.) might initially also have followed Rift fm (
And when did the Red Sea begin? If it began with a Rift, the early hominids s.s.(4) might have followed Rift fm from the beginning?
In that case, a major difference between early-hominids-apiths-apes & Homo might than have that between Rift & *real* coastal (shallow-diving, early-Pleist.?) adaptations?
_____
Plate Tectonics:
1) India approaching Eurasia: fm of island archipels, full of coastal forests:
cercopithecoid/hominoid split:
catarrhines reaching these became vertical "bipedal" waders-climbers: Hominoidea:
larger size, vertical spine, complete ext.tail loss, sacralisation, very broad pelvis, thorax & sternum (Hominoidea=Latisternalia) etc.
for wading bipedally + climbing arms overhead.
2) India further under Eurasia = split great/lesser apes = W/E:
great apes colonized W-Tethys coastal forests.
3) Mesopotamian Seaway closure c 15 Ma = split hominids/pongids = W/E: hominids colonized Med.Sea coastal forests.
4) Med.drying: only Red Sea hominids survived.
5) E.Afr.Rift fm c 8 Ma = split G/HP:
-Gorilla followed Rift -> Pliocene "gracile" afarensis -> early-Pleist."robust" boisei.
6) Zanclean Flood c 5 Ma: Red Sea opened into Ind.Ocean:
-Pan went right -> Pliocene "gracile" africanus -> early-Pleist."robust" robustus (P//G).
-Homo went left -> Ind.Ocean coasts.
Pongids forced hylobatids higher into the trees, and kept Homo at the coasts (tree-poor).
7) Ice Ages: cooling: more?different shellfish?
-early-Pleist.H.erectus Java etc. coastal diving for shellfish etc. -mid-Pleist.H.neand. diving-wading seasonally along rivers, -late-Pleist.H.sapiens: wading-walking.
CC Hn>Hs>>He>>apiths-apes (DHA)
POS He>>Hn>>Hs-apiths-apes (He salt water)
PNSs Hn>Hs>He (Hn more wading & surface-swimming)
The scenario below is partly based on ideas of Francesca Mansfield, esp.the Zanclean Flood Hypothesis (6).
rather than the Ind.Ocean coasts)?If the HP/G split occurred when Gorilla (afarensis etc.) followed the Rift formation (5), the remarkably parallel evolutions of P // G (e.g. KWing early-Pleist.) suggest Pan in SE.Africa (africanus etc.) might initially also have followed Rift fm (
And when did the Red Sea begin? If it began with a Rift, the early hominids s.s.(4) might have followed Rift fm from the beginning?
In that case, a major difference between early-hominids-apiths-apes & Homo might than have that between Rift & *real* coastal (shallow-diving, early-Pleist.?) adaptations?
Plate Tectonics:
1) India approaching Eurasia: fm of island archipels, full of coastal forests:
cercopithecoid/hominoid split:
catarrhines reaching these became vertical "bipedal" waders-climbers: Hominoidea:
larger size, vertical spine, complete ext.tail loss, sacralisation, very broad pelvis, thorax & sternum (Hominoidea=Latisternalia) etc.
for wading bipedally + climbing arms overhead.
2) India further under Eurasia = split great/lesser apes = W/E:
great apes colonized W-Tethys coastal forests.
3) Mesopotamian Seaway closure c 15 Ma = split hominids/pongids = W/E: hominids colonized Med.Sea coastal forests.
4) Med.drying: only Red Sea hominids survived.
Correction: Black Sea region was a refuge during the MSC, only a slight loss of water, but the Med. Sea and the Red Sea were nearly dried up with only a few hypersaline lakes watered by deep-cutting rivers.
Black Sea refuge during & after MSC https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0264817215001154
Red Sea
There is an opinion that during the Messinian, the Red Sea was connected at Suez to the Mediterranean, but was not connected with the Indian Ocean, and dried out along with the Mediterranean.[56] wikipedia
5) E.Afr.Rift fm c 8 Ma = split G/HP:
-Gorilla followed Rift -> Pliocene "gracile" afarensis -> early-Pleist."robust" boisei.
6) Zanclean Flood c 5 Ma: Red Sea opened into Ind.Ocean:
-Pan went right -> Pliocene "gracile" africanus -> early-Pleist."robust" robustus (P//G).
-Homo went left -> Ind.Ocean coasts.
Pongids forced hylobatids higher into the trees, and kept Homo at the coasts (tree-poor).
7) Ice Ages: cooling: more?different shellfish?
-early-Pleist.H.erectus Java etc. coastal diving for shellfish etc. -mid-Pleist.H.neand. diving-wading seasonally along rivers, -late-Pleist.H.sapiens: wading-walking.
CC Hn>Hs>>He>>apiths-apes (DHA)
POS He>>Hn>>Hs-apiths-apes (He salt water)
PNSs Hn>Hs>He (Hn more wading & surface-swimming)
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