India under Asia:
1) OWM/ape split: apes colonized India (low, wet, hot) & became aquarboreal: vertical waders-climbers along the Tethys Ocean,
2) the Himalaya split colobines (E) & cercopithecines (W),
3) India split lesser (E) & great (W) apes (still predom.aquarboreal):
-- hylobatids along the SE.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts,
-- gr.apes along the Red+Med.Sea.

The Mesopotamian Seaway closure c 15 Ma split hominids (W) & pongids (E):
-- pongids along the SE.Asian coastal forests, forcing hylobatids higher into the trees,
-- hominids around the Red & Med.Sea (Graecopith, footprints, Oreopith etc.) + inland along rivers. HPG in Red Sea.

E.Afr.Rift fm split Gorilla & HP c 8 Ma: G followed the rift ->subgenus Praeanthropus Pliocene afarensis ->Pleist.boisei.

Opening of Red Sea c 5 Ma:
- Pan fossil subgenus Australopithecus initially followed the E.Afr.coasts ->Pliocene africanus ->Pleist.robustus // E.Afr.apiths,
- Homo followed the S.Asian coasts ->Peistocene shellfish-diving.

Only incredible imbeciles still believe their Pleistocene ancestors ran after antelopes over Afr.savannas.

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Op zaterdag 26 maart 2022 om 13:44:26 UTC+1 schreef littor...@gmail.com:

India under Asia:
1) OWM/ape split: apes colonized India (low, wet, hot) & became aquarboreal: vertical waders-climbers along the Tethys Ocean,
2) the Himalaya split colobines (E) & cercopithecines (W),
3) India split lesser (E) & great (W) apes (still predom.aquarboreal):
-- hylobatids along the SE.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts,
-- gr.apes along the Red+Med.Sea.
The Mesopotamian Seaway closure c 15 Ma split hominids (W) & pongids (E):
-- pongids along the SE.Asian coastal forests, forcing hylobatids higher into the trees,
-- hominids around the Red & Med.Sea (Graecopith, footprints, Oreopith etc.) + inland along rivers. HPG in Red Sea.
E.Afr.Rift fm split Gorilla & HP c 8 Ma: G followed the rift ->subgenus Praeanthropus Pliocene afarensis ->Pleist.boisei.
Opening of Red Sea c 5 Ma:
- Pan fossil subgenus Australopithecus initially followed the E.Afr.coasts ->Pliocene africanus ->Pleist.robustus // E.Afr.apiths,
- Homo followed the S.Asian coasts ->Peistocene shellfish-diving.

There's little doubt IMO that the first Catarrhini that migrated from Asia to India became aquarboreal in swamp (mangrove?) forests: climbing arms overhead, wading bipedally, surface-swimming & not impossibly (but not likely IMO) even shallow-diving.

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littor...@gmail.com wrote:

India under Asia:
1) OWM/ape split: apes colonized India (low, wet, hot) & became aquarboreal: vertical waders-climbers along the Tethys Ocean,
2) the Himalaya split colobines (E) & cercopithecines (W),
3) India split lesser (E) & great (W) apes (still predom.aquarboreal):
-- hylobatids along the SE.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts,
-- gr.apes along the Red+Med.Sea.

The Mesopotamian Seaway closure c 15 Ma split hominids (W) & pongids (E):
-- pongids along the SE.Asian coastal forests, forcing hylobatids higher into the trees,
-- hominids around the Red & Med.Sea (Graecopith, footprints, Oreopith etc.) + inland along rivers. HPG in Red Sea.

E.Afr.Rift fm split Gorilla & HP c 8 Ma: G followed the rift ->subgenus Praeanthropus Pliocene afarensis ->Pleist.boisei.

Opening of Red Sea c 5 Ma:
- Pan fossil subgenus Australopithecus initially followed the E.Afr.coasts ->Pliocene africanus ->Pleist.robustus // E.Afr.apiths,
- Homo followed the S.Asian coasts ->Peistocene shellfish-diving.

Only incredible imbeciles still believe their Pleistocene ancestors ran after antelopes over Afr.savannas.

Not sure about ages & direction. I think it likely that apes arose in Asia, which includes the middle east, or even Europe/the Mediterranean as
some have suggested, but I'm quite certain that we got "Old World" vs
"New World" monkeys backwards.





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Op zondag 27 maart 2022 om 21:59:05 UTC+2 schreef I Envy JTEM:

India under Asia:
1) OWM/ape split: apes colonized India (low, wet, hot) & became aquarboreal: vertical waders-climbers along the Tethys Ocean,
2) the Himalaya split colobines (E) & cercopithecines (W),
3) India split lesser (E) & great (W) apes (still predom.aquarboreal):
-- hylobatids along the SE.Asian Ind.Ocean coasts,
-- gr.apes along the Red+Med.Sea.

The Mesopotamian Seaway closure c 15 Ma split hominids (W) & pongids (E): -- pongids along the SE.Asian coastal forests, forcing hylobatids higher into the trees,
-- hominids around the Red & Med.Sea (Graecopith, Trachilos footprints, Oreopith etc.) + inland along rivers. HPG in Red Sea.

E.Afr.Rift fm split Gorilla & HP c 8 Ma: G followed the rift ->subgenus Praeanthropus Pliocene afarensis ->Pleist.boisei.

Opening of Red Sea c 5 Ma?
- Pan fossil subgenus Australopithecus initially followed the E.Afr.coasts ->Pliocene africanus ->Pleist.robustus // E.Afr.apiths,
- Homo followed the S.Asian coasts ->Peistocene shellfish-diving.

Not sure about ages & direction. I think it likely that apes arose in Asia, which includes the middle east, or even Europe/the Mediterranean as
some have suggested, but I'm quite certain that we got "Old World" vs
"New World" monkeys backwards.

When India first reached Asia (>30 Ma?), India sank underneath Asia (later forming the Himalaya),
it was a rather unique environment: hot & wet islands & forests & shallow waters initially, ideal for bipedally wading & vertically climbing & even surface-swimming aquarboreal primates:
early hoinoids became larger, lost their tail, evolved very wide bodies, sternum (Latisternalia) & thorax & pelvis, with arms & legs also moving laterally.
They adapted to these coastal forests (mangroves?), and when India reached Asia more & more, it split these early hominoids into great apes E & hylobatids W.
The great apes colonized the Tethys Ocean coasal forests to Anatolia & Europe, and when the Mesopotamian Seaway closed (c 15 Ma), hominids lived along the Tethys=Med.Sea & pongids along the Ind.Ocean.
The pongids forced the hylobatids higher into the trees, becoming smaller again etc.
Most hominids died out later - except those in the Red Sea: HPG.

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littor...@gmail.com wrote:

When India first reached Asia (>30 Ma?), India sank underneath Asia (later forming the Himalaya),
it was a rather unique environment: hot & wet islands & forests & shallow waters initially, ideal for bipedally wading & vertically climbing & even surface-swimming aquarboreal primates:
early hoinoids became larger, lost their tail, evolved very wide bodies, sternum (Latisternalia) & thorax & pelvis, with arms & legs also moving laterally.
They adapted to these coastal forests (mangroves?), and when India reached Asia more & more, it split these early hominoids into great apes E & hylobatids W.
The great apes colonized the Tethys Ocean coasal forests to Anatolia & Europe, and when the Mesopotamian Seaway closed (c 15 Ma), hominids lived along the Tethys=Med.Sea & pongids along the Ind.Ocean.
The pongids forced the hylobatids higher into the trees, becoming smaller again etc.
Most hominids died out later - except those in the Red Sea: HPG.

As you may or may not have noticed by know, when you (or Wolpolf, Trinkaus) or the like says
something, I don't waste too much time doubting you. Or, more accurately, if I'm going to doubt
it's going to come later. My initial response is to accept you at face value and then try to squeeze
what you're telling me into the mosaic of human evolution.

hmm... perhaps a "Patchwork Quilt" is a meter analogy. I dunno.

There's LOTS we know. There's lots mere we don't know but there's LOTS we know. And all those
diverse pieces have to fit together. So if we're going to reach all the way back before the Homo
ball got rolling -- more than 30 million years ago -- then we start to getting into Old World vs. New
World primates. And, quite frankly, as things stand everything is backwards.

It's in reverse.

By far the oldest monkeys we know of are in the New World. So if they're turning themselves into
tailless hominids like 30 million years ago, over in Asia, we need to start talking about how they
got there in the first place.

They got there. We know that. We can find them there right now. So it's not a question of IF it's
a question of WHEN and HOW.

Because your dating here is SIGNIFICANTLY older than any Old World monkeys, it's not a giant
leap after New World monkeys -- it's somewhere in between, but closer to the New World finds
-- so we've got some 'Splaining to do...




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