Greg Cochran at West Hunter blog:

I've been reading Thin on the Ground, a book by Stephen Churchill. One of his ideas is based on the fact some predator species are dominant over others and get the lion's share (cough, cough) of the of the kills. Lions frequently steal carcasses from
hyenas, while everyone steals from cheetahs and wild dogs, etc.

There is good evidence ( stable isotope data) that Neanderthals were highly carnivorous, and that they used thrusting spears, which are effective but not as generally useful as atlatls - standoff weapons. Churchill suspects that with their thrusting
spears tech, Neanderthals were _not_ the top dogs of the predator guild, and that they may have been dominated by cave lions and scimitar cats, while having approximately equal status with hyenas. In practice, this would mean that Neanderthals often lost
kills to high-ranked carnivores such as cave lions. The majority of calories from animal kills would go to higher-ranked carnivores ( not to Neanderthals) . Neanderthal population size would be limited, and some environments ( like open plains, where
kills are highly visible) might be effectively closed to them.

Neanderthals don't seem to take much advantage of the Atlantic salmon runs - maybe bears didn't let them.

We think of Man as #1, and generally that's the case nowadays, but it wasn't always true

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On Saturday 8 January 2022 at 07:09:35 UTC, DD'eDeN aka note/nickname/alas_my_loves wrote:

Greg Cochran at West Hunter blog:
I've been reading Thin on the Ground, a book by Stephen Churchill. One of his ideas is based on
the fact some predator species are dominant over others and get the lion's share (cough, cough)
of the of the kills. Lions frequently steal carcasses from hyenas, while everyone steals from
cheetahs and wild dogs, etc.

There is good evidence ( stable isotope data) that Neanderthals were highly carnivorous, and that
they used thrusting spears, which are effective but not as generally useful as atlatls - standoff
weapons. Churchill suspects that with their thrusting spears tech, Neanderthals were _not_ the
top dogs of the predator guild, and that they may have been dominated by cave lions and
scimitar cats, while having approximately equal status with hyenas. In practice, this would mean
that Neanderthals often lost kills to high-ranked carnivores such as cave lions. The majority of
calories from animal kills would go to higher-ranked carnivores ( not to Neanderthals) .
Neanderthal population size would be limited, and some environments ( like open plains, where
kills are highly visible) might be effectively closed to them.

The assumption underlying all of this is that
Neanderthals had a distinct role in -- and were
a normal part of -- the ecology.

But that's just not so. IF they had been, then
their fossil remains would roughly match those
of hyenas, bears, cave lions, or some other
common animal. List the frequency in which
common animals are found, and Neanderthals
should be present. Maybe -- for some unknown
reason -- at one-tenth, or one-hundredth that of
(say) hyenas. But they are not there AT ALL --
or at a frequency so low that it barely registers
-- one millionth or thereabouts. "Thin on the
ground" doesn't cut it.

Neanderthals don't seem to take much advantage of the Atlantic salmon runs - maybe bears
didn't let them.

We think of Man as #1, and generally that's the case nowadays, but it wasn't always true

When you ignore the basic facts of the field,
you just can't do science. Your thinking and
your conclusions are worthless.

Hominin children could never grow up in the
presence of dangerous predators.

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There is good evidence (stable isotope data) that Neanderthals were highly carnivorous

This is nonsense as everybody with a little bit of common sense knows: their stable isotope data showed that neandertals were more carnivorous than felids!! :-DDD
From my MS:
C- en N-isotopenonderzoek op botcollageen van NW-Europese neandertalers en Euraziatische Cro-Magnons en fossiele zoogdieren wijst volgens Michael Richards e.a. op veel mammoet- en neushoornvlees eten (Acheulianen ~1 Ma slachtten al walviskarkassen aan de
W-Afrikaanse kust, Gutierrez 2001), maar dan zouden ze carnivoorder zijn dan katachtigen op het land – onmogelijk natuurlijk. Hun data kloppen wel met een mix van zoetwater- en kustvoedsel, bv. wat meer schelpdieren bij neandertalers, wat meer vis bij
vroege sapiens (Richards 2007): sapiens δ15N ~12 (10 à 15) zoals bij vis, meer dan bij landdieren ~8 (6 à 9), maar sapiens δ13C ~-19 (-19 à -17) meer zoals bij landdieren (roofdieren ~-19, hoefdieren ~-20), maar evengoed tussen zoetwater- (~-22) en
zeedieren (~-12), bv. een hoofdzakelijk-zoetwater- met 1 seizoen kustdieet. Isotopen onderscheiden moeilijk dierlijk en plantaardig voedsel, zegt José Joordens. Dat neandertalers veel planten aten, blijkt o.a. uit hun taurodontie, lisdodde op
vuistbijlen, en waterlelies in tandplak (bonobo’s eten waterlelie Nymphaea en russoorten Juncus, rijk aan jodium vs landplanten, zie Hohmann 2019).

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On Saturday, January 8, 2022 at 6:28:41 PM UTC-5, littor...@gmail.com wrote:

There is good evidence (stable isotope data) that Neanderthals were highly carnivorous

This is nonsense as everybody with a little bit of common sense knows: their stable isotope data showed that neandertals were more carnivorous than felids!! :-DDD
From my MS:
C- en N-isotopenonderzoek op botcollageen van NW-Europese neandertalers en Euraziatische Cro-Magnons en fossiele zoogdieren wijst volgens Michael Richards e.a. op veel mammoet- en neushoornvlees eten (Acheulianen ~1 Ma slachtten al walviskarkassen aan

de W-Afrikaanse kust, Gutierrez 2001), maar dan zouden ze carnivoorder zijn dan katachtigen op het land – onmogelijk natuurlijk. Hun data kloppen wel met een mix van zoetwater- en kustvoedsel, bv. wat meer schelpdieren bij neandertalers, wat meer vis
bij vroege sapiens (Richards 2007): sapiens δ15N ~12 (10 à 15) zoals bij vis, meer dan bij landdieren ~8 (6 à 9), maar sapiens δ13C ~-19 (-19 à -17) meer zoals bij landdieren (roofdieren ~-19, hoefdieren ~-20), maar evengoed tussen zoetwater- (~-22)
en zeedieren (~-12), bv. een hoofdzakelijk-zoetwater- met 1 seizoen kustdieet. Isotopen onderscheiden moeilijk dierlijk en plantaardig voedsel, zegt José Joordens. Dat neandertalers veel planten aten, blijkt o.a. uit hun taurodontie, lisdodde op
vuistbijlen, en waterlelies in tandplak (bonobo’s eten waterlelie Nymphaea en russoorten Juncus, rijk aan jodium vs landplanten, zie Hohmann 2019).

In English, molluscivory & piscivory are subsets of carnivory.

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