In rec.woodworking, DerbyDad03 <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

The following image shows a junction box that I opened up in an 80+ year
old house. This house has various generations of wire types, from BX, to fabric covered NM (very old and newer old), plastic NM, etc.

Power is supplied via the large fabric covered cable on the right and
leaves leave via the black Romex cable on the left. Prior to taking
the photo, I removed a very old (white turned almost completely brown) ceramic pull chain fixture. I also removed the oily, peeling
electrical tape from one of the splices to see how it was made.

Check out this beauty:

https://i.imgur.com/YSrRjyi.jpg

Here's what I found:

That is a beauty. I can see right away you have conduit, so the box is
probably grounded. Wish I had that in more places here. I'd need to
take out the plaster and lathe ceiling in the garage, while minding
not to damage the asbestos insulation on the ducts from gravity furnace,
to get at all of the wiring. I expect it's cloth insulated knob and
tube. I've seen the knobs in side the walls when I've made holes for
other repairs.

I've been running conduit for all new wiring but that's not much.

Elijah
------
often finds disused gas pipes when opening the walls, too

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

The following image shows a junction box that I opened up in an 80+ year
old house. This house has various generations of wire types, from BX, to
fabric covered NM (very old and newer old), plastic NM, etc.

Power is supplied via the large fabric covered cable on the right and leaves leave via the black Romex cable on the left. Prior to taking the photo, I removed a very old (white turned almost completely brown) ceramic pull
chain fixture. I also removed the oily, peeling electrical tape from one of the splices to see how it was made.

Check out this beauty:

https://i.imgur.com/YSrRjyi.jpg

Here's what I found:

1 - The box was held to the joist by 2 nails. The one that can be seen
behind the taped splice was not fully hammered into the joist. The
second one (not seen) was a finishing nail that was hammered about
halfway in and then bent over. Obviously, the box wobbled and twisted.

2 - The splices were made by stripping some insulation from the outgoing
Romex, wrapping it around the source wire and then taping the splice. No solder, no wire nuts.

3 - No cable clamp was used for the outgoing Romex. Instead, the ground
wire was wrapped around the cable and the hole in the box, "securing" the
Romex to the box.

4 - You can't tell from the photo, but based on the color of the fabric on
the source cable, the hot and neutral are reversed. The reason I opened
this box is because I was working on a light switch down stream of this junction box. When I opened the switch box I noticed that the white was switched and the black wires were twisted and taped. Again, no wire nut
and no cable clamps.

https://i.imgur.com/O2gYFJn.jpg

Instead of assuming that the neutral was switched, I decided to test the
wires and found that the white was hot. That lead me back to the junction
box pictured above. The white fabric was hot, the white/black fabric was the neutral. At least the installer was smart enough to switch the hot, even if the
color was wrong.

Having already been in the panel, I knew that a black wire was attached
to the breaker, so there must be another junction box in between the panel
and the box I was working on. The color swap had to have happened
somewhere, so I went looking upstream.

What I found was that there was a junction box up in a joist bay, inside what used to be a cold air return. That box has a BX cable, the large fabric
covered cable and a plastic coated Romex attached. It is also 8 feet into the bay and covered in decades old dirt and grime. The only way for me to
access it would be to pull down part of the basement "ceiling", something I
did not have the time nor the desire to do. I'm not even 100% sure if that is where the hot/neutral switch was made. That is going to be a job for another day.

My temporary solution was to mark the fabric wires in the box I was working in, swap the outgoing wires so that the black wire would be hot in the switch
box, secure the box to the joist with screws, install a cable clamp and use wire nuts. I then closed up the box and hung a tag noting that the hot & neutral were swapped somewhere upstream. (Tag not shown)

https://i.imgur.com/iS4sr5F.jpg

I just can't wait to pull the ceiling down and open that other box. I'll be wearing a hat, cloves, mask and maybe even a Tyvek suit. I can't imagine
what I'll find inside *that* box.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In rec.woodworking, DerbyDad03 <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 1:57:25 PM UTC-5, Eli the Bearded wrote:

That is a beauty. I can see right away you have conduit, so the box is
probably grounded.

Where do you see conduit?

Am I mistaking what I'm seeing in the upper right corner here?

https://i.imgur.com/YSrRjyi.jpg

Elijah
------
whose cloth insulated wires don't look as good as that

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 1:57:25 PM UTC-5, Eli the Bearded wrote:

In rec.woodworking, DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

The following image shows a junction box that I opened up in an 80+ year old house. This house has various generations of wire types, from BX, to fabric covered NM (very old and newer old), plastic NM, etc.

Power is supplied via the large fabric covered cable on the right and leaves leave via the black Romex cable on the left. Prior to taking
the photo, I removed a very old (white turned almost completely brown) ceramic pull chain fixture. I also removed the oily, peeling
electrical tape from one of the splices to see how it was made.

Check out this beauty:

https://i.imgur.com/YSrRjyi.jpg

Here's what I found:

That is a beauty. I can see right away you have conduit, so the box is probably grounded. Wish I had that in more places here. I'd need to
take out the plaster and lathe ceiling in the garage, while minding
not to damage the asbestos insulation on the ducts from gravity furnace,
to get at all of the wiring. I expect it's cloth insulated knob and
tube. I've seen the knobs in side the walls when I've made holes for
other repairs.

I've been running conduit for all new wiring but that's not much.

Elijah
------
often finds disused gas pipes when opening the walls, too

Where do you see conduit?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 2:49:17 PM UTC-5, Eli the Bearded wrote:

In rec.woodworking, DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 1:57:25 PM UTC-5, Eli the Bearded wrote:

That is a beauty. I can see right away you have conduit, so the box is
probably grounded.

Where do you see conduit?

Am I mistaking what I'm seeing in the upper right corner here?

https://i.imgur.com/YSrRjyi.jpg

Yes, yes you are. ;-)

That is black cloth covered cable. Almost round, almost 1/2" in diameter.
No ground.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:57:21 -0000 (UTC), Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:

In rec.woodworking, DerbyDad03 <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

The following image shows a junction box that I opened up in an 80+ year
old house. This house has various generations of wire types, from BX, to
fabric covered NM (very old and newer old), plastic NM, etc.

Power is supplied via the large fabric covered cable on the right and
leaves leave via the black Romex cable on the left. Prior to taking
the photo, I removed a very old (white turned almost completely brown)
ceramic pull chain fixture. I also removed the oily, peeling
electrical tape from one of the splices to see how it was made.

Check out this beauty:

https://i.imgur.com/YSrRjyi.jpg

Here's what I found:

That is a beauty. I can see right away you have conduit, so the box is >probably grounded. Wish I had that in more places here. I'd need to
take out the plaster and lathe ceiling in the garage, while minding
not to damage the asbestos insulation on the ducts from gravity furnace,
to get at all of the wiring. I expect it's cloth insulated knob and
tube. I've seen the knobs in side the walls when I've made holes for
other repairs.

I've been running conduit for all new wiring but that's not much.

Conduit is complete overkill. Something only a corrupt city like
Chicago would require.

Elijah
------
often finds disused gas pipes when opening the walls, too

The gas installer I had just a few years ago cut (half way) through
one of the wires in my basement. The hot wasn't any longer but it was
touching the gas line.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 4:16:21 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:

On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:57:21 -0000 (UTC), Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:

In rec.woodworking, DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

The following image shows a junction box that I opened up in an 80+ year >> old house. This house has various generations of wire types, from BX, to >> fabric covered NM (very old and newer old), plastic NM, etc.

Power is supplied via the large fabric covered cable on the right and
leaves leave via the black Romex cable on the left. Prior to taking
the photo, I removed a very old (white turned almost completely brown)
ceramic pull chain fixture. I also removed the oily, peeling
electrical tape from one of the splices to see how it was made.

Check out this beauty:

https://i.imgur.com/YSrRjyi.jpg

Here's what I found:

That is a beauty. I can see right away you have conduit, so the box is >probably grounded. Wish I had that in more places here. I'd need to
take out the plaster and lathe ceiling in the garage, while minding
not to damage the asbestos insulation on the ducts from gravity furnace,
to get at all of the wiring. I expect it's cloth insulated knob and
tube. I've seen the knobs in side the walls when I've made holes for
other repairs.

I've been running conduit for all new wiring but that's not much.

Conduit is complete overkill. Something only a corrupt city like
Chicago would require.

Elijah
------
often finds disused gas pipes when opening the walls, too

The gas installer I had just a few years ago cut (half way) through
one of the wires in my basement. The hot wasn't any longer but it was touching the gas line.

If the wire had been in conduit, would he have been able to cut it?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:16:16 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

Conduit is complete overkill. Something only a corrupt city like
Chicago would require.

Cook County is the body that requires conduit, Chicago is but a part
of the county.

But in most industrial applications conduit is a good thing.

You should check that trolling motor battery!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 12:29:02 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
<teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 2:49:17 PM UTC-5, Eli the Bearded wrote:

In rec.woodworking, DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 1:57:25 PM UTC-5, Eli the Bearded wrote: >> >> That is a beauty. I can see right away you have conduit, so the box is

probably grounded.

Where do you see conduit?

Am I mistaking what I'm seeing in the upper right corner here?

https://i.imgur.com/YSrRjyi.jpg

Yes, yes you are. ;-)

That is black cloth covered cable. Almost round, almost 1/2" in diameter.
No ground.

and no "clamp" or "bushing either - right??

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 13:25:26 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
<teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 4:16:21 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:

On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 18:57:21 -0000 (UTC), Eli the Bearded
<*@eli.users.panix.com> wrote:

In rec.woodworking, DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

The following image shows a junction box that I opened up in an 80+ year >> >> old house. This house has various generations of wire types, from BX, to >> >> fabric covered NM (very old and newer old), plastic NM, etc.

Power is supplied via the large fabric covered cable on the right and
leaves leave via the black Romex cable on the left. Prior to taking
the photo, I removed a very old (white turned almost completely brown)
ceramic pull chain fixture. I also removed the oily, peeling
electrical tape from one of the splices to see how it was made.

Check out this beauty:

https://i.imgur.com/YSrRjyi.jpg

Here's what I found:

That is a beauty. I can see right away you have conduit, so the box is
probably grounded. Wish I had that in more places here. I'd need to
take out the plaster and lathe ceiling in the garage, while minding
not to damage the asbestos insulation on the ducts from gravity furnace,
to get at all of the wiring. I expect it's cloth insulated knob and
tube. I've seen the knobs in side the walls when I've made holes for
other repairs.

I've been running conduit for all new wiring but that's not much.

Conduit is complete overkill. Something only a corrupt city like
Chicago would require.

Elijah
------
often finds disused gas pipes when opening the walls, too

The gas installer I had just a few years ago cut (half way) through
one of the wires in my basement. The hot wasn't any longer but it was
touching the gas line.

If the wire had been in conduit, would he have been able to cut it?

Probably. He would have at least bent the crap out of it. A conduit
would probably have found its way through the gas line, too. He just
_had_ to run the gas line where the wire was.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 18:23:41 -0600, Markem618 <markrm618@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:16:16 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

Conduit is complete overkill. Something only a corrupt city like
Chicago would require.

Cook County is the body that requires conduit, Chicago is but a part
of the county.

A distinction without a difference.

But in most industrial applications conduit is a good thing.

OK but that's not the subject.

You should check that trolling motor battery!

Got it. You believe in union bosses running cities too.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 20:16:11 -0600, Markem618 <markrm618@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 20:56:05 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 18:23:41 -0600, Markem618 <markrm618@hotmail.com> >>wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:16:16 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

Conduit is complete overkill. Something only a corrupt city like >>>>Chicago would require.

Cook County is the body that requires conduit, Chicago is but a part
of the county.

A distinction without a difference.

But in most industrial applications conduit is a good thing.

OK but that's not the subject.

You should check that trolling motor battery!

Got it. You believe in union bosses running cities too.

Nope I believe the present evolution the American political system
corrupt. (no answers to how to fix and do not care too.)

Follow the money.

You are drawing conclusion based upon your bias.

Nope. Facts, but you're agreeing so...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 20:56:05 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 18:23:41 -0600, Markem618 <markrm618@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:16:16 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

Conduit is complete overkill. Something only a corrupt city like
Chicago would require.

Cook County is the body that requires conduit, Chicago is but a part
of the county.

A distinction without a difference.

But in most industrial applications conduit is a good thing.

OK but that's not the subject.

You should check that trolling motor battery!

Got it. You believe in union bosses running cities too.

Nope I believe the present evolution the American political system
corrupt. (no answers to how to fix and do not care too.)

Follow the money.

You are drawing conclusion based upon your bias.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 8:18:24 PM UTC-5, Clare Snyder wrote:

On Tue, 9 Nov 2021 12:29:02 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
<teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 2:49:17 PM UTC-5, Eli the Bearded wrote:

In rec.woodworking, DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 1:57:25 PM UTC-5, Eli the Bearded wrote:

That is a beauty. I can see right away you have conduit, so the box is >> >> probably grounded.

Where do you see conduit?

Am I mistaking what I'm seeing in the upper right corner here?

https://i.imgur.com/YSrRjyi.jpg

Yes, yes you are. ;-)

That is black cloth covered cable. Almost round, almost 1/2" in diameter. >No ground.

and no "clamp" or "bushing either - right??

Do you not see the clamp on the large cable on the right?

It was loose, but it’s there. I tightened it up.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

DerbyDad03 <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote in news:8bcb630f-f00c-4afb-ba7d-a0be793bd764n@googlegroups.com:

Do you not see the clamp on the large cable on the right?

It was loose, but it’s there. I tightened it up.

I was waiting for that revelation! That many other problems, there was no
way the clamp was clamping the wire.

Puckdropper

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 22:10:21 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 20:16:11 -0600, Markem618 <markrm618@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 20:56:05 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 18:23:41 -0600, Markem618 <markrm618@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:16:16 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

Conduit is complete overkill. Something only a corrupt city like >>>>>Chicago would require.

Cook County is the body that requires conduit, Chicago is but a part
of the county.

A distinction without a difference.

But in most industrial applications conduit is a good thing.

OK but that's not the subject.

You should check that trolling motor battery!

Got it. You believe in union bosses running cities too.

Nope I believe the present evolution the American political system
corrupt. (no answers to how to fix and do not care too.)

Follow the money.

You are drawing conclusion based upon your bias.

Nope. Facts, but you're agreeing so...

Senilty is looking good on you.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 09:27:48 -0600, Markem618 <markrm618@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 22:10:21 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 20:16:11 -0600, Markem618 <markrm618@hotmail.com> >>wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 20:56:05 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 18:23:41 -0600, Markem618 <markrm618@hotmail.com> >>>>wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:16:16 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

Conduit is complete overkill. Something only a corrupt city like >>>>>>Chicago would require.

Cook County is the body that requires conduit, Chicago is but a part >>>>>of the county.

A distinction without a difference.

But in most industrial applications conduit is a good thing.

OK but that's not the subject.

You should check that trolling motor battery!

Got it. You believe in union bosses running cities too.

Nope I believe the present evolution the American political system >>>corrupt. (no answers to how to fix and do not care too.)

Union bosses running the cities = American political system corrupt

Follow the money.

Union bosses running the cities = Follow the money

You are drawing conclusion based upon your bias.

Nope. Facts, but you're agreeing so...

Senilty is looking good on you.

Mirror anyone?


I don't know why you can't even understand what *YOU* wrote.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 10:27:54 AM UTC-5, Markem618 wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 22:10:21 -0500, k...@notreal.com wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 20:16:11 -0600, Markem618 <mark...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 20:56:05 -0500, k...@notreal.com wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 18:23:41 -0600, Markem618 <mark...@hotmail.com> >>>wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:16:16 -0500, k...@notreal.com wrote:

Conduit is complete overkill. Something only a corrupt city like >>>>>Chicago would require.

Cook County is the body that requires conduit, Chicago is but a part >>>>of the county.

A distinction without a difference.

But in most industrial applications conduit is a good thing.

OK but that's not the subject.

You should check that trolling motor battery!

Got it. You believe in union bosses running cities too.

Nope I believe the present evolution the American political system >>corrupt. (no answers to how to fix and do not care too.)

Follow the money.

You are drawing conclusion based upon your bias.

Nope. Facts, but you're agreeing so...

Senilty is looking good on you.

Do we really need to do this again?

How about you guys start your own thread related to the downfall
of the American political system as well as all the insult lobbing.

a.h.r would be the perfect group for that conversation.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:08:07 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

I don't know why you can't even understand what *YOU* wrote.

Because I do not have access to the twists and turns in your head that bastardizes what I wrote and meant.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 11/10/2021 10:22 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 10:27:54 AM UTC-5, Markem618 wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 22:10:21 -0500, k...@notreal.com wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 20:16:11 -0600, Markem618 <mark...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 20:56:05 -0500, k...@notreal.com wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 18:23:41 -0600, Markem618 <mark...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Tue, 09 Nov 2021 16:16:16 -0500, k...@notreal.com wrote:

Conduit is complete overkill. Something only a corrupt city like >>>>>>> Chicago would require.

Cook County is the body that requires conduit, Chicago is but a part >>>>>> of the county.

A distinction without a difference.

But in most industrial applications conduit is a good thing.

OK but that's not the subject.

You should check that trolling motor battery!

Got it. You believe in union bosses running cities too.

Nope I believe the present evolution the American political system
corrupt. (no answers to how to fix and do not care too.)

Follow the money.

You are drawing conclusion based upon your bias.

Nope. Facts, but you're agreeing so...

Senilty is looking good on you.

Do we really need to do this again?

How about you guys start your own thread related to the downfall
of the American political system as well as all the insult lobbing.

a.h.r would be the perfect group for that conversation.

Do what again, Post an OT topic? ;~)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 11:24:28 -0600, Markem618 <markrm618@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:08:07 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

I don't know why you can't even understand what *YOU* wrote.

Because I do not have access to the twists and turns in your head that >bastardizes what I wrote and meant.

I note that you had to snip the discussion to cover your ass. Didn't
work.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 20:30:20 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 11:24:28 -0600, Markem618 <markrm618@hotmail.com>
wrote:

On Wed, 10 Nov 2021 12:08:07 -0500, krw@notreal.com wrote:

I don't know why you can't even understand what *YOU* wrote.

Because I do not have access to the twists and turns in your head that >>bastardizes what I wrote and meant.

I note that you had to snip the discussion to cover your ass. Didn't
work.

Incorrect assumption, I snipped because the previous information is
still available, and I was answering your question which your forgot
the ?.

Of course you can invent your own version of reality.

All of this cause I made a joke and you jumped on me like I had
vulgarly insulted your wife. That was sometime back I wonder whether
you remember?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 11/9/2021 13:26, DerbyDad03 wrote:

The following image shows a junction box that I opened up in an 80+ year
old house. This house has various generations of wire types, from BX, to fabric covered NM (very old and newer old), plastic NM, etc.

Check out this beauty:

https://i.imgur.com/YSrRjyi.jpg

I had a couple of similar circuits in my house also. Two of them, I
decided to completely disconnect; one was for a few basement outlets,
and I don't remember where the other went, but clearly it wasn't that important.

My "favorite" one, which I had to fix because it was being used, was a
metal junction box (old iron one similar to yours) with TWO circuits in
it; electrical tape, no solder or plastic caps. It was partially
shorting off of the box or something; because when one circuit breaker
was off, the other circuit had a very low voltage testing on the line.
It took a good while to track down that issue.

I noticed this short due to the PO having one of those odd light
switches that glow orange when they are turned off. It had a very dim
glow (more dim than normal) even when the circuit was turned off...
yikes! After I fixed that mess, I quickly did away with that annoying
glowing light switch.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 11/12/2021 19:24, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Friday, November 12, 2021 at 3:29:37 PM UTC-5, Michael Trew wrote:

On 11/9/2021 13:26, DerbyDad03 wrote:

The following image shows a junction box that I opened up in an 80+ year >>> old house. This house has various generations of wire types, from BX, to >>> fabric covered NM (very old and newer old), plastic NM, etc.

Check out this beauty:

https://i.imgur.com/YSrRjyi.jpg

I had a couple of similar circuits in my house also. Two of them, I
decided to completely disconnect; one was for a few basement outlets,
and I don't remember where the other went, but clearly it wasn't that
important.

My "favorite" one, which I had to fix because it was being used, was a
metal junction box (old iron one similar to yours) with TWO circuits in
it; electrical tape, no solder or plastic caps. It was partially
shorting off of the box or something; because when one circuit breaker
was off, the other circuit had a very low voltage testing on the line.
It took a good while to track down that issue.

I noticed this short due to the PO having one of those odd light
switches that glow orange when they are turned off. It had a very dim
glow (more dim than normal) even when the circuit was turned off...
yikes! After I fixed that mess, I quickly did away with that annoying
glowing light switch.

Was it possible that it was Edison circuit - a shared neutral? Every "symptom"
you described would happen with a Edison circuit. Both breakers need to be off for both circuits to be completely dead if any device (like the light switch)
is "live" on the circuit whose breaker is still on. A lamp would have acted the
same way.

I have one Edison circuit in my house which I may eliminate some day. Edison circuits were used to save wire. If you use enough 3 wire cable vs pairs of 2 wire
cables, you can save some money. In my case the single Edison circuit uses less than 15' of 3 wire cable so there wasn't a whole lot of savings realized.
I really don't quite understand why it was even installed.

You know, now that you say that, I think that was the case. I didn't
know what the circuit was called, but the whole second floor and
finished attic of my home; both levels share ONE circuit... which goes
into a ceramic fuse box in one second floor bedroom closet. The other
circuit in the box covers the three-way light switch for the floor lamp
and 2nd floor hall light, as well as all of the first floor ceiling and
porch lighting.

This fuse box, for some reason, has four fuses; both hots and neutrals
are fused. The moron PO's had 20 amp fuses installed; I put 15's in.
They never blow, because I really don't run anything more than a lamp,
fan, or phone charger upstairs. Anyway, coming out of the box, are two
hots, and a shared neutral; into a conduit, outside, and down into my
main breaker box.

Question: I've tried to describe this situation to people before, and
I've gotten mixed responses. Should the two hots be on the same phase,
or different phases in my breaker box? I've been told that they should
be on the same phase in case the neutral is broken so it doesn't
accidentally become a 240V circuit or something. I've also been told
that they should be on alternate phases so the Neutral wire isn't
accidentally overloaded. I think I have them on the same phase;
(alternating breakers) at the moment.

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On Saturday, November 13, 2021 at 12:03:02 PM UTC-5, Michael Trew wrote:

On 11/12/2021 19:24, DerbyDad03 wrote:

On Friday, November 12, 2021 at 3:29:37 PM UTC-5, Michael Trew wrote:

On 11/9/2021 13:26, DerbyDad03 wrote:

The following image shows a junction box that I opened up in an 80+ year >>> old house. This house has various generations of wire types, from BX, to >>> fabric covered NM (very old and newer old), plastic NM, etc.

Check out this beauty:

https://i.imgur.com/YSrRjyi.jpg

I had a couple of similar circuits in my house also. Two of them, I
decided to completely disconnect; one was for a few basement outlets,
and I don't remember where the other went, but clearly it wasn't that
important.

My "favorite" one, which I had to fix because it was being used, was a
metal junction box (old iron one similar to yours) with TWO circuits in
it; electrical tape, no solder or plastic caps. It was partially
shorting off of the box or something; because when one circuit breaker
was off, the other circuit had a very low voltage testing on the line.
It took a good while to track down that issue.

I noticed this short due to the PO having one of those odd light
switches that glow orange when they are turned off. It had a very dim
glow (more dim than normal) even when the circuit was turned off...
yikes! After I fixed that mess, I quickly did away with that annoying
glowing light switch.

Was it possible that it was Edison circuit - a shared neutral? Every "symptom"
you described would happen with a Edison circuit. Both breakers need to be off for both circuits to be completely dead if any device (like the light switch)
is "live" on the circuit whose breaker is still on. A lamp would have acted the
same way.

I have one Edison circuit in my house which I may eliminate some day. Edison
circuits were used to save wire. If you use enough 3 wire cable vs pairs of 2 wire
cables, you can save some money. In my case the single Edison circuit uses less than 15' of 3 wire cable so there wasn't a whole lot of savings realized.
I really don't quite understand why it was even installed.

You know, now that you say that, I think that was the case. I didn't
know what the circuit was called, but the whole second floor and
finished attic of my home; both levels share ONE circuit... which goes
into a ceramic fuse box in one second floor bedroom closet. The other
circuit in the box covers the three-way light switch for the floor lamp
and 2nd floor hall light, as well as all of the first floor ceiling and
porch lighting.

I believe that it's more common to say that a circuit comes *from* a panel,
not *into* a panel. You start at the source and go out from there.

This fuse box, for some reason, has four fuses; both hots and neutrals
are fused.

https://incompliancemag.com/article/double-fusing-or-fusing-both-sides-of-the-line/

The moron PO's had 20 amp fuses installed; I put 15's in.
They never blow, because I really don't run anything more than a lamp,
fan, or phone charger upstairs.

Without knowing the gauge of the wires used, I can't agree or disagree that
the PO's are morons. A properly wired sub-panel and 12g wire out to fixtures would permit 20A fuses to be used.

Anyway, coming out of the box, are two
hots, and a shared neutral; into a conduit, outside, and down into my
main breaker box.

Again, if the fuse box is being fed from the main panel, the 3 wire cable
is coming *from* the main panel, not into it. (Correct me if I have the directions mixed-up)

However, this doesn't sound like an Edison circuit (multi-wire branch circuit). This sounds sound like a sub-panel. That's a very different thing.
Think about your main panel. How is power supplied from the street?
2 hots (on opposing phases) and a neutral, right?

Question: I've tried to describe this situation to people before, and
I've gotten mixed responses. Should the two hots be on the same phase,
or different phases in my breaker box? I've been told that they should
be on the same phase in case the neutral is broken so it doesn't
accidentally become a 240V circuit or something. I've also been told
that they should be on alternate phases so the Neutral wire isn't accidentally overloaded. I think I have them on the same phase;
(alternating breakers) at the moment.

I'm not a pro in any respect, but AFAIK, in either case - sub-panel or Edison circuit - the hots should be on opposite phases to prevent overloading the neutral.

In addition, without going down the rat hole of being grandfathered under
some earlier version of the NEC, the hots should be connected to a
2 pole breaker. Not only does that ensure that the hots are on opposite
phases, but a fault on either hot would kill both circuits. Older versions
of code allowed for 2 single breakers and a handle tie, but I believe that
they changed it to a 2 pole breaker to eliminate the issues caused by
"future relocation" of a single breaker which might eliminate the handle
tie or put both hots on the same phase or both. This is one of those cases where, grandfathered or not, it's a cheap and easy fix and provide so much safety it just makes sense to do it.

Lots more here:

https://inspectapedia.com/electric/Multi-Wire-Electrical-Circuits.php

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