So a few weeks ago, in February, I mentioned and posted pictures of the progress of the kitchen.
We are moving right along and I'm ready to be finished. But we still
have to paint the old cabinets that we are keeping and paint the new 5 cabinets that we are adding. We will lose 2 builder drawers and an 8'x 36",24" cabinet. We will gain 18 drawers that are a minimum of 22" wide.
Next steps are to paint build drawer fronts and cabinet doors for both
new and old cabinets.
And then the counter tops approximately 77 sq feet to yield about 30
linear feet of counter space. And a new sink and disposal.
This is where the refrigerator was and is now where 6 of the new drawers will be located. More room to the right of the range for my wife, the
whole purpose of doing this renovation.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52793385678/in/datetaken/
Where the refrigerator is not along with relocated cabinets and the new large upper cabinet.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52793385683/in/datetaken/
The new pony wall cabinets, 2 similar in size with same sized drawers in each.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52793333170/in/datetaken/
And finally the relocated electrical wall outlet that the cabinets now hide.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52792939906/in/datetaken/
On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 11:04:56 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
So a few weeks ago, in February, I mentioned and posted pictures of the
progress of the kitchen.
We are moving right along and I'm ready to be finished. But we still
have to paint the old cabinets that we are keeping and paint the new 5
cabinets that we are adding. We will lose 2 builder drawers and an 8'x
36",24" cabinet. We will gain 18 drawers that are a minimum of 22" wide.
Next steps are to paint build drawer fronts and cabinet doors for both
new and old cabinets.
And then the counter tops approximately 77 sq feet to yield about 30
linear feet of counter space. And a new sink and disposal.
This is where the refrigerator was and is now where 6 of the new drawers
will be located. More room to the right of the range for my wife, the
whole purpose of doing this renovation.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52793385678/in/datetaken/
Where the refrigerator is not along with relocated cabinets and the new
large upper cabinet.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52793385683/in/datetaken/
The new pony wall cabinets, 2 similar in size with same sized drawers in
each.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52793333170/in/datetaken/
And finally the relocated electrical wall outlet that the cabinets now hide. >>
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52792939906/in/datetaken/
It all looks really good and I'm sure it will be very enjoyable once complete.
Lots of countertop next to the range is always nice.
I just (like 10 minutes ago) finished moving my 5 receptacles and 2 switches to make room for the new countertop that SWMBO is still deciding on. I've already made my choice, so it's really up to her at this point. As long as she
doesn't pick something that I really dislike, I'll be fine. The one I chose ticks
all of her boxes - as in the colors in the stone (not just for now but also if we
want to repaint in the future), it picks up a little of the color from the new floor,
it's got a matte finish vs. polished, etc. Everything she wants, plus the price
point is right where we want to be. Of course, she doesn't "want to settle" so
she's still looking. What can I say?
We're shopping for a drywall contractor to "unstiple" the ceiling. I found a guy
who was recommended by a neighbor, but pinning him down for an estimate
took forever and now I can't get him to commit to a time to do the job. I just
got a new recommendation today from coworker who flips houses, so I'm
going to give him a call. I haven't signed anything with the other guy and I'm
strongly considering cutting him loose. I hate chasing people down.
Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets. That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of the cabinet so that it's accessible.
On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old >> one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets. >> That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of >> the cabinet so that it's accessible.
Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It
is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and >>>> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
the cabinet so that it's accessible.
Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out >>> of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It
is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
for access, per the NEC.
I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the
8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an >outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of >>> the cabinet so that it's accessible.
Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It
is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
for access, per the NEC.
On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and >>>>>> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
the cabinet so that it's accessible.
Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a >>>>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out >>>>> of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It >>>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
for access, per the NEC.
I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the
8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an
outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
not be hidden), not receptacles.
Ohhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house the
wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location.
On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and >>> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
the cabinet so that it's accessible.
Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out >> of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It
is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the
for access, per the NEC.
8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and >>>>>> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
the cabinet so that it's accessible.
Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a >>>>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out >>>>> of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It >>>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
for access, per the NEC.
I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the
8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an
outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
not be hidden), not receptacles.
Ohhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house the
wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location. No other
cables come in or out. But yeah, there is probably some rule against
that too.
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and >> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
the cabinet so that it's accessible.
Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a >metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out >of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. ItFWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
for access, per the NEC.
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
the cabinet so that it's accessible.
Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a >>>>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It >>>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles" >>>> for access, per the NEC.
I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the
8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an >>> outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
not be hidden), not receptacles.
Ohhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house theThe reason the code forbids that is that the next owner or the electrician trying to diagnose an issue down-stream has no idea that your j-box is there,
wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location. No other
cables come in or out. But yeah, there is probably some rule against
that too.
and then there is a potential fire hazard at any j-box depending on the method(s) used to make the connections.
On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
the cabinet so that it's accessible.
Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a >>>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It >>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles" >>> for access, per the NEC.
I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the
8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an >> outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which mustOhhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house the
not be hidden), not receptacles.
wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location. No other
cables come in or out. But yeah, there is probably some rule against
that too.
So a few weeks ago, in February, I mentioned and posted pictures of the progress of the kitchen.
We are moving right along and I'm ready to be finished. But we still
have to paint the old cabinets that we are keeping and paint the new 5 cabinets that we are adding. We will lose 2 builder drawers and an 8'x 36",24" cabinet. We will gain 18 drawers that are a minimum of 22" wide.
Next steps are to paint build drawer fronts and cabinet doors for both
new and old cabinets.
And then the counter tops approximately 77 sq feet to yield about 30
linear feet of counter space. And a new sink and disposal.
This is where the refrigerator was and is now where 6 of the new drawers will be located. More room to the right of the range for my wife, the
whole purpose of doing this renovation.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52793385678/in/datetaken/
Where the refrigerator is not along with relocated cabinets and the new large upper cabinet.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52793385683/in/datetaken/
The new pony wall cabinets, 2 similar in size with same sized drawers in each.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52793333170/in/datetaken/
And finally the relocated electrical wall outlet that the cabinets now hide.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52792939906/in/datetaken/
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and >>>>>>> extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
the cabinet so that it's accessible.
Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a >>>>>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out >>>>>> of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It >>>>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles" >>>>> for access, per the NEC.
I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the >>>> 8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an >>>> outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
not be hidden), not receptacles.
Ohhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house the
wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location.
That's the definition of a j-box :-).
On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 6:58:52 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:The reason the code forbids that is that the next owner or the electrician >> trying to diagnose an issue down-stream has no idea that your j-box is there,
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
the cabinet so that it's accessible.
Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a >>>>>>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It >>>>>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles" >>>>>> for access, per the NEC.
I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the >>>>> 8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an >>>>> outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
not be hidden), not receptacles.
Ohhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house the
wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location. No other
cables come in or out. But yeah, there is probably some rule against
that too.
and then there is a potential fire hazard at any j-box depending on the
method(s) used to make the connections.
Forbids *what*?
Are you saying the junction box behind Leon's drawer would be considered "hidden" per
the NEC? If so, please provide the relevant article.
On 4/4/2023 6:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Are you saying the junction box behind Leon's drawer would be considered "hidden" per
the NEC? If so, please provide the relevant article.
FWIW as I understand it a home owner can do most anything to his home
code or no code. It is the licensed electrician that has to follow the >rules.
And this connection that I am extending terminated at that wall plug.
It was a simple connection, there were only the single ground, neutral,
and hot wires coming in. I understand the concerns but if my
connection fails it will not affect any of the other outlets on the circuit.
On 4/4/2023 6:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 6:58:52?PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:The reason the code forbids that is that the next owner or the electrician >>> trying to diagnose an issue down-stream has no idea that your j-box is there,
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
the cabinet so that it's accessible.
Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a >>>>>>>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It >>>>>>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles" >>>>>>> for access, per the NEC.
I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the >>>>>> 8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an >>>>>> outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
not be hidden), not receptacles.
Ohhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house the
wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location. No other
cables come in or out. But yeah, there is probably some rule against
that too.
and then there is a potential fire hazard at any j-box depending on the
method(s) used to make the connections.
Forbids *what*?
Are you saying the junction box behind Leon's drawer would be considered "hidden" per
the NEC? If so, please provide the relevant article.
FWIW as I understand it a home owner can do most anything to his home
code or no code. It is the licensed electrician that has to follow the >rules.
And this connection that I am extending terminated at that wall plug.
It was a simple connection, there were only the single ground, neutral,
and hot wires coming in. I understand the concerns but if my
connection fails it will not affect any of the other outlets on the circuit.
On 4/4/2023 6:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 6:58:52 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:The reason the code forbids that is that the next owner or the electrician
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
the cabinet so that it's accessible.
Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It >>>>>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles" >>>>>> for access, per the NEC.
I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the >>>>> 8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an
outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
not be hidden), not receptacles.
Ohhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house the
wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location. No other
cables come in or out. But yeah, there is probably some rule against
that too.
trying to diagnose an issue down-stream has no idea that your j-box is there,
and then there is a potential fire hazard at any j-box depending on the >> method(s) used to make the connections.
Forbids *what*?
Are you saying the junction box behind Leon's drawer would be considered "hidden" perFWIW as I understand it a home owner can do most anything to his home
the NEC? If so, please provide the relevant article.
code or no code. It is the licensed electrician that has to follow the rules.
And this connection that I am extending terminated at that wall plug.
It was a simple connection, there were only the single ground, neutral,
and hot wires coming in. I understand the concerns but if my
connection fails it will not affect any of the other outlets on the circuit.
On Sat, 8 Apr 2023 10:49:43 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
On 4/4/2023 6:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 6:58:52?PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:The reason the code forbids that is that the next owner or the electrician >>>> trying to diagnose an issue down-stream has no idea that your j-box is there,
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
the cabinet so that it's accessible.
Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a >>>>>>>>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It >>>>>>>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles" >>>>>>>> for access, per the NEC.
I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the >>>>>>> 8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an >>>>>>> outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
not be hidden), not receptacles.
Ohhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house the
wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location. No other
cables come in or out. But yeah, there is probably some rule against >>>>> that too.
and then there is a potential fire hazard at any j-box depending on the >>>> method(s) used to make the connections.
Forbids *what*?
Are you saying the junction box behind Leon's drawer would be considered "hidden" per
the NEC? If so, please provide the relevant article.
FWIW as I understand it a home owner can do most anything to his home
code or no code. It is the licensed electrician that has to follow the
rules.
And this connection that I am extending terminated at that wall plug.
It was a simple connection, there were only the single ground, neutral,
and hot wires coming in. I understand the concerns but if my
connection fails it will not affect any of the other outlets on the circuit.
My guess is you are not going to invite an electrical inspector to
check and sign off. With it being a terminated no worries for you just
a puzzle for the next home owner.
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 6:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Are you saying the junction box behind Leon's drawer would be considered "hidden" per
the NEC? If so, please provide the relevant article.
FWIW as I understand it a home owner can do most anything to his home
code or no code. It is the licensed electrician that has to follow the
rules.
I think that depends on the county you live in. And possibly
your insurance company (although I believe that to be urban legend).
Some locales don't allow unlicensed electrical work (I've personally
seen horrible homeowner work on several occasions, including using
AWG18 speaker wire on a 20a circuit).
And this connection that I am extending terminated at that wall plug.
It was a simple connection, there were only the single ground, neutral,
and hot wires coming in. I understand the concerns but if my
connection fails it will not affect any of the other outlets on the circuit.
There may be failure modes that could cause problems, a loose neutral
for instance.
On 4/8/2023 4:25 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Saturday, April 8, 2023 at 11:49:55 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 4/4/2023 6:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 6:58:52 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote: >>>> Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:FWIW as I understand it a home owner can do most anything to his home
On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:The reason the code forbids that is that the next owner or the electrician
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
the cabinet so that it's accessible.
Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a
metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It
is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles"
for access, per the NEC.
I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the >>>>>>> 8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an
outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
not be hidden), not receptacles.
Ohhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house the >>>>> wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location. No other >>>>> cables come in or out. But yeah, there is probably some rule against >>>>> that too.
trying to diagnose an issue down-stream has no idea that your j-box is there,
and then there is a potential fire hazard at any j-box depending on the >>>> method(s) used to make the connections.
Forbids *what*?
Are you saying the junction box behind Leon's drawer would be considered "hidden" per
the NEC? If so, please provide the relevant article.
code or no code. It is the licensed electrician that has to follow the
rules.
I'm sure a homeowner could do whatever they want. Of course, when it comes time to sell, that could be an issue. This "no contingency" thing is a bit of a game.IF the inspector suspected something. It could be easily reversed and
The buyers may say "no inspection" when they put in an offer and then ask for one
afterwards "or we'll cancel the deal". That's when homeowner performed stuff
can come back and bite you if it's not done to code.
the previous outlet box simply terminated and not extended as it is now.
And this connection that I am extending terminated at that wall plug.
It was a simple connection, there were only the single ground, neutral, >> and hot wires coming in. I understand the concerns but if my
connection fails it will not affect any of the other outlets on the circuit.
That depends on the mode of failure. Fire can affect lots of things. That'sYes, the new receptical is in a box and flush with the surface.
why I brought up the new receptacle and article 314.20 regarding the box being flush with the finished surface. The box and/or extension rings are there to contain sparks (and small flames) from causing serious issues.
On Saturday, April 8, 2023 at 11:49:55 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 4/4/2023 6:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Tuesday, April 4, 2023 at 6:58:52 PM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:FWIW as I understand it a home owner can do most anything to his home
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 2:05 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:The reason the code forbids that is that the next owner or the electrician >>>> trying to diagnose an issue down-stream has no idea that your j-box is there,
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:42 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 11:07 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Regarding your relocated receptacle. You said that the cabinets hide the old
one. Assuming you turned the old receptacle box into a junction box and
extended the wires, I hope you didn't hide that box behind the new cabinets.
That's a code violation. At a minimum, you should cut a hole in the back of
the cabinet so that it's accessible.
Yes, I turned the old wall outlet box into a junction box and added a >>>>>>>>> metal cover with a protected "L" coming out of it to guide the Romex out
of the box. From there to the new outlet between the 2 cabinets. It >>>>>>>>> is all accessible if you remove the bottom drawer.
FWIW, "accessible" means that you must not need to remove "obstacles" >>>>>>>> for access, per the NEC.
I'll have to live with that. ;~( I guess it could be argued that the >>>>>>> 8' desk that is in front of 2 outlets or the 8' cabinet, in front of an >>>>>>> outlet would not be allowed. Or our bed. ;~)
The accessibility rule applies to junction boxes (which must
not be hidden), not receptacles.
Ohhhhh. So technically the box is simply an in and out to house the
wire nuts extending the cable going to the new location. No other
cables come in or out. But yeah, there is probably some rule against >>>>> that too.
and then there is a potential fire hazard at any j-box depending on the >>>> method(s) used to make the connections.
Forbids *what*?
Are you saying the junction box behind Leon's drawer would be considered "hidden" per
the NEC? If so, please provide the relevant article.
code or no code. It is the licensed electrician that has to follow the
rules.
I'm sure a homeowner could do whatever they want. Of course, when it comes time to sell, that could be an issue. This "no contingency" thing is a bit of a game.
The buyers may say "no inspection" when they put in an offer and then ask for one
afterwards "or we'll cancel the deal". That's when homeowner performed stuff can come back and bite you if it's not done to code.
And this connection that I am extending terminated at that wall plug.
It was a simple connection, there were only the single ground, neutral,
and hot wires coming in. I understand the concerns but if my
connection fails it will not affect any of the other outlets on the circuit.
That depends on the mode of failure. Fire can affect lots of things. That's why I brought up the new receptacle and article 314.20 regarding the box being flush with the finished surface. The box and/or extension rings are there to contain sparks (and small flames) from causing serious issues.
You'd be surprised how many videos showing how to install tile, shiplap,
etc. neglect to mention the requirement to extend the box. Some of them, especially "homeowner" made videos, actually show the receptacle mounted right on the wood shiplap with the box sunk into the wall half an inch. Yikes!
While some of the code may seem more of a nuisance than it's worth, there's an underlying reason for it: safety of the homeowner and service personnel. Just because homeowner is allowed to do their own work, that doesn't relieve of the responsibility to follow the code. I do my own electrical work (other than
replacing a service line or panel) and I'm confident that everything I've done is
up to code. e.g. When I installed the inlet for my portable generator, I made sure I knew what the code was for everything from the plug end of the generator
cord to the exterior inlet box to the interlock on the panel. A homeowner may be
"allowed" to put a male plug on both ends of a piece lamp cord and plug the live end into any random receptacle, but that's not how I roll.
On 4/8/2023 12:23 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 6:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
And this connection that I am extending terminated at that wall plug.
It was a simple connection, there were only the single ground, neutral,
and hot wires coming in. I understand the concerns but if my
connection fails it will not affect any of the other outlets on the circuit.
There may be failure modes that could cause problems, a loose neutral
for instance.
Understood but my connections were pretwisted with pliers and nipped to
equal length before the wire nuts were added so I believe that this will
not be an issue.
Yes, the new receptical is in a box and flush with the surface.
That depends on the mode of failure. Fire can affect lots of things. That's >>> why I brought up the new receptacle and article 314.20 regarding the box >>> being flush with the finished surface. The box and/or extension rings are >>> there to contain sparks (and small flames) from causing serious issues.
The NEC is kind of like our constitution. There are different ways to interpret the wording and that often leads to confusion. So, I have to
ask...
Do you mean "the new receptacle is in a box and the *box* is flush with the surface" or simply that the *receptacle* is flush with the surface?
Since the receptacle is the subject of your sentence, the "and flush with
the surface" refers to the receptacle, leaving the reader to wonder about
the box. The code requires the box to be flush with the surface, not the receptacle. (Consider a recessed receptacle behind a TV.)
I'm not nit-picking, just trying to understand your installation.
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/8/2023 3:25 PM, Markem618 wrote:
Correct. But it should not be an issue with the next home owner as the >junction box will be accessible IF the end of the line recepticalBut how will the next owner know that the Jbox is there?
stooped working because a wire nut fell off and the connection came
loose. That could happen at any junction box.
On 4/9/2023 9:55 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Snip
That depends on the mode of failure. Fire can affect lots of things. That's
why I brought up the new receptacle and article 314.20 regarding the box >>> being flush with the finished surface. The box and/or extension rings are
there to contain sparks (and small flames) from causing serious issues. >> Yes, the new receptical is in a box and flush with the surface.
The NEC is kind of like our constitution. There are different ways to interpret the wording and that often leads to confusion. So, I have to ask...
Do you mean "the new receptacle is in a box and the *box* is flush with theYes, the box is flush with the surface. Relatively, Some boxes extend
surface" or simply that the *receptacle* is flush with the surface?
past the surface about 1/16" by design. The mounting tabs are proud
but against the surface. The cover plate fits flush against the
mounting surface too.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52804635584/in/datetaken/
Since the receptacle is the subject of your sentence, the "and flush with the surface" refers to the receptacle, leaving the reader to wonder about the box. The code requires the box to be flush with the surface, not the receptacle. (Consider a recessed receptacle behind a TV.)
I'm not nit-picking, just trying to understand your installation.
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/8/2023 12:23 PM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/4/2023 6:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
And this connection that I am extending terminated at that wall plug.
It was a simple connection, there were only the single ground, neutral, >>>> and hot wires coming in. I understand the concerns but if my
connection fails it will not affect any of the other outlets on the circuit.
There may be failure modes that could cause problems, a loose neutral
for instance.
Understood but my connections were pretwisted with pliers and nipped to
equal length before the wire nuts were added so I believe that this will
not be an issue.
I highly recommend WAGO connectors rather than wirenuts.
Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
On 4/8/2023 3:25 PM, Markem618 wrote:
Correct. But it should not be an issue with the next home owner as the
junction box will be accessible IF the end of the line receptical
stooped working because a wire nut fell off and the connection came
loose. That could happen at any junction box.
But how will the next owner know that the Jbox is there?
On Sunday, April 9, 2023 at 11:40:26 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 4/9/2023 9:55 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Snip
Yes, the box is flush with the surface. Relatively, Some boxes extend
That depends on the mode of failure. Fire can affect lots of things. That's
why I brought up the new receptacle and article 314.20 regarding the box >>>>> being flush with the finished surface. The box and/or extension rings are >>>>> there to contain sparks (and small flames) from causing serious issues. >>>> Yes, the new receptical is in a box and flush with the surface.
The NEC is kind of like our constitution. There are different ways to
interpret the wording and that often leads to confusion. So, I have to
ask...
Do you mean "the new receptacle is in a box and the *box* is flush with the >>> surface" or simply that the *receptacle* is flush with the surface?
past the surface about 1/16" by design. The mounting tabs are proud
but against the surface. The cover plate fits flush against the
mounting surface too.
I will sleep better now. ;-)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/52804635584/in/datetaken/
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