• #### Dominos - Is There Side-To-Side Slop Like With Biscuits?

From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 19 11:50:04 2023
I don't know if any of you are familiar with the "Insider Carpentry" channel
on YouTube. Spencer Lewis does carpentry for high end homes and offers
tips on how to be efficient in an effort to make the most of your time. You know, the whole "time is money" thing.

In the following video he uses both Dominos (and Lamello Clamex
connectors) to make 10' sides for some bookcases. As far as I can
tell, he cuts the same size mortise in both boards (~4:30) but then
he goes on to show how he uses clamps to line up the boards so
that the side edges are flush. (~7:33).

So here's my question: Is there side-to-side slop in *all* Domino
usage and Leon's method just gives you more adjustment room or is
Spencer using oversize holes in both boards? (I've always assumed
that the standard Domino mortise would result in tight tenon, with no movement.)

Just curious...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
• From Bob Davis@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 19 12:46:29 2023
On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 1:50:07 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I don't know if any of you are familiar with the "Insider Carpentry" channel on YouTube. Spencer Lewis does carpentry for high end homes and offers
tips on how to be efficient in an effort to make the most of your time. You know, the whole "time is money" thing.

In the following video he uses both Dominos (and Lamello Clamex
connectors) to make 10' sides for some bookcases. As far as I can
tell, he cuts the same size mortise in both boards (~4:30) but then
he goes on to show how he uses clamps to line up the boards so
that the side edges are flush. (~7:33).

So here's my question: Is there side-to-side slop in *all* Domino
usage and Leon's method just gives you more adjustment room or is
Spencer using oversize holes in both boards? (I've always assumed
that the standard Domino mortise would result in tight tenon, with no movement.)

Just curious...
The domino machine cuts three different width slots. All are the same thickness (to match the thickness of the selected domino tenon). The narrowist width matches the domino tenon, which provides a snug (no movement) fit when the tenon is inserted with
glue. The remaining two widths provide side-to-side freedom to allow for aligning the two workpieces to be joined. Conventional (Festool recommended) slots are tight fit on one board, and fit with side-to-side movement in the mating board.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
• From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Bob Davis on Sun Mar 19 14:11:16 2023
On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 3:46:31 PM UTC-4, Bob Davis wrote:
On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 1:50:07 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I don't know if any of you are familiar with the "Insider Carpentry" channel
on YouTube. Spencer Lewis does carpentry for high end homes and offers tips on how to be efficient in an effort to make the most of your time. You
know, the whole "time is money" thing.

In the following video he uses both Dominos (and Lamello Clamex connectors) to make 10' sides for some bookcases. As far as I can
tell, he cuts the same size mortise in both boards (~4:30) but then
he goes on to show how he uses clamps to line up the boards so
that the side edges are flush. (~7:33).

So here's my question: Is there side-to-side slop in *all* Domino
usage and Leon's method just gives you more adjustment room or is
Spencer using oversize holes in both boards? (I've always assumed
that the standard Domino mortise would result in tight tenon, with no movement.)

Just curious...
The domino machine cuts three different width slots. All are the same thickness (to match the thickness of the selected domino tenon). The narrowist width matches the domino tenon, which provides a snug (no movement) fit when the tenon is inserted with
glue. The remaining two widths provide side-to-side freedom to allow for aligning the two workpieces to be joined. Conventional (Festool recommended) slots are tight fit on one board, and fit with side-to-side movement in the mating board.

That's what I thought, based on what Leon has said in the past.

So, even though Spencer (the YouTuber) was very specific with just about
every other item/process regarding the "lengthening" of the 8' plywood
boards, he didn't mention that he uses a "wider width" setting for his Dominos. OTOH, he uses a mallet, with significant force, to seat the Dominos (~5:45) which leaves a casual observer like me to think that the tenon is pretty tight.

Spencer is usually very (one might say "overly") detailed in all of his videos and I was fully expecting him to mention the setting on his Domino machine, but he never does.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
• From Leon@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 23 09:34:05 2023
On 3/19/2023 4:11 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 3:46:31 PM UTC-4, Bob Davis wrote:
On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 1:50:07 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I don't know if any of you are familiar with the "Insider Carpentry" channel
on YouTube. Spencer Lewis does carpentry for high end homes and offers
tips on how to be efficient in an effort to make the most of your time. You >>> know, the whole "time is money" thing.

In the following video he uses both Dominos (and Lamello Clamex
connectors) to make 10' sides for some bookcases. As far as I can
tell, he cuts the same size mortise in both boards (~4:30) but then
he goes on to show how he uses clamps to line up the boards so
that the side edges are flush. (~7:33).

So here's my question: Is there side-to-side slop in *all* Domino
usage and Leon's method just gives you more adjustment room or is
Spencer using oversize holes in both boards? (I've always assumed
that the standard Domino mortise would result in tight tenon, with no
movement.)

Just curious...
The domino machine cuts three different width slots. All are the same thickness (to match the thickness of the selected domino tenon). The narrowist width matches the domino tenon, which provides a snug (no movement) fit when the tenon is inserted
with glue. The remaining two widths provide side-to-side freedom to allow for aligning the two workpieces to be joined. Conventional (Festool recommended) slots are tight fit on one board, and fit with side-to-side movement in the mating board.

That's what I thought, based on what Leon has said in the past.

So, even though Spencer (the YouTuber) was very specific with just about every other item/process regarding the "lengthening" of the 8' plywood boards, he didn't mention that he uses a "wider width" setting for his Dominos.
OTOH, he uses a mallet, with significant force, to seat the Dominos (~5:45) which leaves a casual observer like me to think that the tenon is pretty tight.

He used the narrow/exact fit setting for all 4 mortises. I could see the
dial on the Dominio. That said he did use the short Bessey to even up
the sides. If you let the Domino move left or right during the plunge
cut, the slot will be wider. This is likely what happened and or his
lines, for manually places mortises, were not properly aligned. Poplar
is soft and the mortises can be elongated by misfit alignment cuts while
simply closing the joint. IE forcing the joint to close, as he did. It
is better to use an elongated mortise for the mating side so that you
can align the joint if needed. In harder woods he may not have been
able to close the joint.

Spencer is usually very (one might say "overly") detailed in all of his videos
and I was fully expecting him to mention the setting on his Domino machine, but he never does.

It was in the exact fit setting.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
• From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Leon on Fri Mar 24 00:14:25 2023
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 10:34:18 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 3/19/2023 4:11 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 3:46:31 PM UTC-4, Bob Davis wrote:
On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 1:50:07 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I don't know if any of you are familiar with the "Insider Carpentry" channel
on YouTube. Spencer Lewis does carpentry for high end homes and offers >>> tips on how to be efficient in an effort to make the most of your time. You
know, the whole "time is money" thing.

In the following video he uses both Dominos (and Lamello Clamex
connectors) to make 10' sides for some bookcases. As far as I can
tell, he cuts the same size mortise in both boards (~4:30) but then
he goes on to show how he uses clamps to line up the boards so
that the side edges are flush. (~7:33).

So here's my question: Is there side-to-side slop in *all* Domino
usage and Leon's method just gives you more adjustment room or is
Spencer using oversize holes in both boards? (I've always assumed
that the standard Domino mortise would result in tight tenon, with no >>> movement.)

Just curious...
The domino machine cuts three different width slots. All are the same thickness (to match the thickness of the selected domino tenon). The narrowist width matches the domino tenon, which provides a snug (no movement) fit when the tenon is inserted
with glue. The remaining two widths provide side-to-side freedom to allow for aligning the two workpieces to be joined. Conventional (Festool recommended) slots are tight fit on one board, and fit with side-to-side movement in the mating board.

That's what I thought, based on what Leon has said in the past.

So, even though Spencer (the YouTuber) was very specific with just about every other item/process regarding the "lengthening" of the 8' plywood boards, he didn't mention that he uses a "wider width" setting for his Dominos.
OTOH, he uses a mallet, with significant force, to seat the Dominos (~5:45)
which leaves a casual observer like me to think that the tenon is pretty tight.

He used the narrow/exact fit setting for all 4 mortises. I could see the dial on the Dominio. That said he did use the short Bessey to even up
the sides. If you let the Domino move left or right during the plunge
cut, the slot will be wider. This is likely what happened and or his
lines, for manually places mortises, were not properly aligned. Poplar
is soft and the mortises can be elongated by misfit alignment cuts while simply closing the joint. IE forcing the joint to close, as he did. It
is better to use an elongated mortise for the mating side so that you
can align the joint if needed. In harder woods he may not have been
able to close the joint.

With Spencer’s quest for “efficiency” in all his processes, I’m sure that he
would argue that aligning the joint with a clamp is more efficient than changing the setting. Unless he’s hiding something (he usually admits his errors) he did managed to get 20 bookcase sides built using the single setting.

(I’m speaking for him, not disagreeing with you.)

Spencer is usually very (one might say "overly") detailed in all of his videos
and I was fully expecting him to mention the setting on his Domino machine,
but he never does.
It was in the exact fit setting.

Is it just as hard to get the dominos in (multiple mallet blows) when the wider setting is used?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
• From Leon@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 24 08:32:00 2023
On 3/24/2023 2:14 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 10:34:18 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 3/19/2023 4:11 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 3:46:31 PM UTC-4, Bob Davis wrote:
On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 1:50:07 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I don't know if any of you are familiar with the "Insider Carpentry" channel
on YouTube. Spencer Lewis does carpentry for high end homes and offers >>>>> tips on how to be efficient in an effort to make the most of your time. You
know, the whole "time is money" thing.

In the following video he uses both Dominos (and Lamello Clamex
connectors) to make 10' sides for some bookcases. As far as I can
tell, he cuts the same size mortise in both boards (~4:30) but then
he goes on to show how he uses clamps to line up the boards so
that the side edges are flush. (~7:33).

So here's my question: Is there side-to-side slop in *all* Domino
usage and Leon's method just gives you more adjustment room or is
Spencer using oversize holes in both boards? (I've always assumed
that the standard Domino mortise would result in tight tenon, with no >>>>> movement.)

Just curious...
The domino machine cuts three different width slots. All are the same thickness (to match the thickness of the selected domino tenon). The narrowist width matches the domino tenon, which provides a snug (no movement) fit when the tenon is inserted
with glue. The remaining two widths provide side-to-side freedom to allow for aligning the two workpieces to be joined. Conventional (Festool recommended) slots are tight fit on one board, and fit with side-to-side movement in the mating board.

That's what I thought, based on what Leon has said in the past.

So, even though Spencer (the YouTuber) was very specific with just about >>> every other item/process regarding the "lengthening" of the 8' plywood
boards, he didn't mention that he uses a "wider width" setting for his Dominos.
OTOH, he uses a mallet, with significant force, to seat the Dominos (~5:45) >>> which leaves a casual observer like me to think that the tenon is pretty tight.

He used the narrow/exact fit setting for all 4 mortises. I could see the
dial on the Dominio. That said he did use the short Bessey to even up
the sides. If you let the Domino move left or right during the plunge
cut, the slot will be wider. This is likely what happened and or his
lines, for manually places mortises, were not properly aligned. Poplar
is soft and the mortises can be elongated by misfit alignment cuts while
simply closing the joint. IE forcing the joint to close, as he did. It
is better to use an elongated mortise for the mating side so that you
can align the joint if needed. In harder woods he may not have been
able to close the joint.

With Spencer’s quest for “efficiency” in all his processes, I’m sure that he
would argue that aligning the joint with a clamp is more efficient than changing the setting. Unless he’s hiding something (he usually admits his errors) he did managed to get 20 bookcase sides built using the single setting.

(I’m speaking for him, not disagreeing with you.)

Inderstood, and I very often use a clamp to align top and bottom rails
with stiles on frames. But letting the Domino move a touch this way or
that way is something that can happen with out you noticing. If the
holes were perfectly cut, not a touch wider from the Domino shifting
1/16th of an inch left or right there would be no need for alignment
with a clamp. But again there could alternatively have been another
error of of aligning the Domino with the pencil marks. Not admitting to
making an error does not mean that he saw an error and did not mention
it. It is likely that he did not know how or when the error occurred. I
pretty munch never use the alignment pins on the Domino, I use the
visual alignment method as he appears to have done, the reason explained
below.

And a little more on that. 15 years ago early in my ownership of my
Domino I returned the unit to Festool for adjusting the indexing pins.
The left pin was not the same distance away from the outer path of the
cutter as the right pin. Basically that resulted in the mating pieces
being slightly our of registration to each other, left and right.
Festool indicated to me that over time as things wear that the path, not
the indexing pins, could go a touch off center to cut slightly left or
right of center. That is when they advised for me to use the tight fit
and the loose fit method of joining pieces. And that has worked out well.

Spencer is usually very (one might say "overly") detailed in all of his videos
and I was fully expecting him to mention the setting on his Domino machine, >>> but he never does.
It was in the exact fit setting.

Is it just as hard to get the dominos in (multiple mallet blows) when the wider
setting is used?

When dry fitting NO other than the friction of the fit. The tops and
bottoms of the Domino's still touch the wood whether the sides do or not.

But introduce glue and that can change as the glue tack begins
immediately. On the cabinets that I am building the face frame stiles
have 4 rails between them. So that is 4 exact fit mortises in the ends
of the rails and 4 elongated mortises in the stiles. Aligning all of
that at the same time as the first top or bottom rail domino is placed
the glue begins to grab immediately, so to speak, while I futz with each
of the remaining rail/domino's. Still not "stuck" as the glue has not
cured but the tack and the wood swelling a touch can cause more effort
to close the joint. I tap with a soft face hammer to get the joints to
close most of the way but a clamp is necessary to close the joint.

If I used exact fit mortises on both sides of the joint in these
instances it would have been way more difficult. Remember also that
exact fit Domino's, when being glued in place, are going into an air
tight mortise. I always have to hammer the Domino in on an exact fit
mortise when glue is applied. The elongated single mating mortise, if
put together immediately, is a quick slip fit.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
• From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Leon on Fri Mar 24 16:29:34 2023
On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 9:32:15 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 3/24/2023 2:14 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 10:34:18 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
On 3/19/2023 4:11 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 3:46:31 PM UTC-4, Bob Davis wrote:
On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 1:50:07 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote: >>>>> I don't know if any of you are familiar with the "Insider Carpentry" channel
on YouTube. Spencer Lewis does carpentry for high end homes and offers >>>>> tips on how to be efficient in an effort to make the most of your time. You
know, the whole "time is money" thing.

In the following video he uses both Dominos (and Lamello Clamex
connectors) to make 10' sides for some bookcases. As far as I can >>>>> tell, he cuts the same size mortise in both boards (~4:30) but then >>>>> he goes on to show how he uses clamps to line up the boards so
that the side edges are flush. (~7:33).

So here's my question: Is there side-to-side slop in *all* Domino >>>>> usage and Leon's method just gives you more adjustment room or is >>>>> Spencer using oversize holes in both boards? (I've always assumed >>>>> that the standard Domino mortise would result in tight tenon, with no >>>>> movement.)

Just curious...
The domino machine cuts three different width slots. All are the same thickness (to match the thickness of the selected domino tenon). The narrowist width matches the domino tenon, which provides a snug (no movement) fit when the tenon is inserted
with glue. The remaining two widths provide side-to-side freedom to allow for aligning the two workpieces to be joined. Conventional (Festool recommended) slots are tight fit on one board, and fit with side-to-side movement in the mating board.

That's what I thought, based on what Leon has said in the past.

So, even though Spencer (the YouTuber) was very specific with just about >>> every other item/process regarding the "lengthening" of the 8' plywood >>> boards, he didn't mention that he uses a "wider width" setting for his Dominos.
OTOH, he uses a mallet, with significant force, to seat the Dominos (~5:45)
which leaves a casual observer like me to think that the tenon is pretty tight.

He used the narrow/exact fit setting for all 4 mortises. I could see the >> dial on the Dominio. That said he did use the short Bessey to even up
the sides. If you let the Domino move left or right during the plunge
cut, the slot will be wider. This is likely what happened and or his
lines, for manually places mortises, were not properly aligned. Poplar
is soft and the mortises can be elongated by misfit alignment cuts while >> simply closing the joint. IE forcing the joint to close, as he did. It
is better to use an elongated mortise for the mating side so that you
can align the joint if needed. In harder woods he may not have been
able to close the joint.

With Spencer’s quest for “efficiency” in all his processes, I’m sure that he
would argue that aligning the joint with a clamp is more efficient than changing the setting. Unless he’s hiding something (he usually admits his
errors) he did managed to get 20 bookcase sides built using the single setting.

(I’m speaking for him, not disagreeing with you.)
Inderstood, and I very often use a clamp to align top and bottom rails
with stiles on frames. But letting the Domino move a touch this way or
that way is something that can happen with out you noticing. If the
holes were perfectly cut, not a touch wider from the Domino shifting
1/16th of an inch left or right there would be no need for alignment
with a clamp. But again there could alternatively have been another
error of of aligning the Domino with the pencil marks. Not admitting to making an error does not mean that he saw an error and did not mention
it. It is likely that he did not know how or when the error occurred. I pretty munch never use the alignment pins on the Domino, I use the
visual alignment method as he appears to have done, the reason explained below.

And a little more on that. 15 years ago early in my ownership of my
Domino I returned the unit to Festool for adjusting the indexing pins.
The left pin was not the same distance away from the outer path of the cutter as the right pin. Basically that resulted in the mating pieces
being slightly our of registration to each other, left and right.
Festool indicated to me that over time as things wear that the path, not
the indexing pins, could go a touch off center to cut slightly left or
right of center. That is when they advised for me to use the tight fit
and the loose fit method of joining pieces. And that has worked out well.

Spencer is usually very (one might say "overly") detailed in all of his videos
and I was fully expecting him to mention the setting on his Domino machine,
but he never does.
It was in the exact fit setting.

Is it just as hard to get the dominos in (multiple mallet blows) when the wider
setting is used?
When dry fitting NO other than the friction of the fit. The tops and
bottoms of the Domino's still touch the wood whether the sides do or not.

But introduce glue and that can change as the glue tack begins
immediately. On the cabinets that I am building the face frame stiles
have 4 rails between them. So that is 4 exact fit mortises in the ends
of the rails and 4 elongated mortises in the stiles. Aligning all of
that at the same time as the first top or bottom rail domino is placed
the glue begins to grab immediately, so to speak, while I futz with each
of the remaining rail/domino's. Still not "stuck" as the glue has not
cured but the tack and the wood swelling a touch can cause more effort
to close the joint. I tap with a soft face hammer to get the joints to
close most of the way but a clamp is necessary to close the joint.

If I used exact fit mortises on both sides of the joint in these
instances it would have been way more difficult. Remember also that
exact fit Domino's, when being glued in place, are going into an air
tight mortise. I always have to hammer the Domino in on an exact fit
mortise when glue is applied. The elongated single mating mortise, if
put together immediately, is a quick slip fit.

Gotcha. Thanks for the lesson(s).

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)