• Wooden Countertops For Kitchens?

    From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 12 09:36:56 2023
    We've been shopping for new counter tops, exclusively looking at the
    standard "stone" options - quartz, quartzite, marble, soapstone, etc.

    Having not yet come across "the one", we've started doing some
    research into wooden countertops. While not excluding butcher block,
    I think we know enough about butcher block that we don't need to do
    much research on that specific product. It's all the other options that
    we are curious about.

    Does anyone have any first-hand experience with wooded countertops?
    Pro & cons - beyond the need to refinish occasionally? Best types of
    wood, installation concerns, etc. FWIW I have stick-build cabinets, built
    in the 50's. Adding blocking or corner bracing, etc. to support any type of counter top would be quite simple.

    Ping Leon - Some of the wooden counter websites mention the Rubio
    Monocoat products since it's food safe and easy to refinish. As you and
    I know, it's a breeze to work with.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From ritzannaseaton@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 12 18:16:31 2023
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 11:36:59 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    We've been shopping for new counter tops, exclusively looking at the standard "stone" options - quartz, quartzite, marble, soapstone, etc.

    Having not yet come across "the one", we've started doing some
    research into wooden countertops. While not excluding butcher block,
    I think we know enough about butcher block that we don't need to do
    much research on that specific product. It's all the other options that
    we are curious about.

    Does anyone have any first-hand experience with wooded countertops?
    Pro & cons - beyond the need to refinish occasionally? Best types of
    wood, installation concerns, etc. FWIW I have stick-build cabinets, built
    in the 50's. Adding blocking or corner bracing, etc. to support any type of counter top would be quite simple.

    Ping Leon - Some of the wooden counter websites mention the Rubio
    Monocoat products since it's food safe and easy to refinish. As you and
    I know, it's a breeze to work with.

    No experience with wood countertops. So I should not even be responding. But I am. Plastic laminate was used as the standard countertop from the 1950s up through the 1980s. And it worked just fine. Yes you had to use a hot pad underneath pots you
    took off the stove. And you had to use a cutting board when using a knife on the countertop. But those are just common sense things you should do anyway. And plastic laminate countertops worked fine for 30-40 years. Then fancy solid surface appeared
    and it was all the rage. Then a few years later granite came along. And quartz is the new man made wonder material. All work fine as countertops. So wood would work just fine too. You would need to be sort of careful with it like plastic laminate.

    But, plastic laminate does have one big advantage over wood. It is waterproof. Water does not harm plastic laminate at all. With wood, even with a finish, coating on it, is susceptible to water damage. Although maybe teak is sort of impervious to
    water. So you would have to be careful with water on a wood countertop. Wipe up spills immediately. Not let any water stand on the wood countertop.

    A BIG BIG BIG negative with a wood countertop, and a plastic laminate countertop, is the inability to do an undermounted sink. That would throw wood right out the door for me. I had an undermounted sink in my prior house. I would never ever go back to
    a top mounted stainless steel sink like you have with plastic laminate countertops. So easy to wipe water into the sink with an undermounted sink. For me, and maybe just me, but if a kitchen does not have an undermount sink, and is still using the old
    time drop in sink, then its not a nice kitchen. I don't care how fancy the cabinets or countertops are. If the kitchen is missing the most important functional detail, undermount sink, then I won't be happy.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Davis@21:1/5 to ritzann...@gmail.com on Sun Mar 12 21:30:16 2023
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 8:16:34 PM UTC-5, ritzann...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 11:36:59 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    We've been shopping for new counter tops, exclusively looking at the standard "stone" options - quartz, quartzite, marble, soapstone, etc.

    Having not yet come across "the one", we've started doing some
    research into wooden countertops. While not excluding butcher block,
    I think we know enough about butcher block that we don't need to do
    much research on that specific product. It's all the other options that
    we are curious about.

    Does anyone have any first-hand experience with wooded countertops?
    Pro & cons - beyond the need to refinish occasionally? Best types of
    wood, installation concerns, etc. FWIW I have stick-build cabinets, built in the 50's. Adding blocking or corner bracing, etc. to support any type of
    counter top would be quite simple.

    Ping Leon - Some of the wooden counter websites mention the Rubio
    Monocoat products since it's food safe and easy to refinish. As you and
    I know, it's a breeze to work with.
    No experience with wood countertops. So I should not even be responding. But I am. Plastic laminate was used as the standard countertop from the 1950s up through the 1980s. And it worked just fine. Yes you had to use a hot pad underneath pots you took
    off the stove. And you had to use a cutting board when using a knife on the countertop. But those are just common sense things you should do anyway. And plastic laminate countertops worked fine for 30-40 years. Then fancy solid surface appeared and it
    was all the rage. Then a few years later granite came along. And quartz is the new man made wonder material. All work fine as countertops. So wood would work just fine too. You would need to be sort of careful with it like plastic laminate.

    But, plastic laminate does have one big advantage over wood. It is waterproof. Water does not harm plastic laminate at all. With wood, even with a finish, coating on it, is susceptible to water damage. Although maybe teak is sort of impervious to water.
    So you would have to be careful with water on a wood countertop. Wipe up spills immediately. Not let any water stand on the wood countertop.

    A BIG BIG BIG negative with a wood countertop, and a plastic laminate countertop, is the inability to do an undermounted sink. That would throw wood right out the door for me. I had an undermounted sink in my prior house. I would never ever go back to
    a top mounted stainless steel sink like you have with plastic laminate countertops. So easy to wipe water into the sink with an undermounted sink. For me, and maybe just me, but if a kitchen does not have an undermount sink, and is still using the old
    time drop in sink, then its not a nice kitchen. I don't care how fancy the cabinets or countertops are. If the kitchen is missing the most important functional detail, undermount sink, then I won't be happy.

    I think wood and plastic are fragile for kitchen counter tops. We have old Dupont Corian countertops. Some would view them as boring compared to granite or quartz. But they are tough and look as good as they did 25 years ago. We can set a hot skillet
    on them without concern. I think a counter top should not need to be treated like a baby. Wood seems to require caution and care. Granite needs to be sealed and resealed and can be damaged by a dropped pot. I guess we are kind of rough on a kitchen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Brian Welch@21:1/5 to Michael Trew on Mon Mar 13 07:13:27 2023
    On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 10:02:28 AM UTC-4, Michael Trew wrote:
    On 3/13/2023 0:30, Bob Davis wrote:
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 8:16:34 PM UTC-5, ritzann...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 11:36:59 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

    Does anyone have any first-hand experience with wooded
    countertops? Pro& cons - beyond the need to refinish
    occasionally? Best types of wood, installation concerns, etc.
    I've never lived with them, but typically wooden counter tops are made
    of maple. I've heard that teak is more durable, and less likely to
    warp. Like any good cutting board, you'd want to rub wooden counters
    with teak oil from time to time to seal them; which also acts a disinfectant. Me personally, I'd like one larger "butcher block"
    counter spot for working, maybe 3 foot wide (perhaps on a kitchen
    island)... I'd go with laminate or the like for the rest of the surfaces.
    A BIG BIG BIG negative with a wood countertop, and a plastic
    laminate countertop, is the inability to do an undermounted sink.
    Personal preference; I don't care for the look of a modern under-mount
    sink. I grew up with a 50's porcelain cast double-basin under-mount,
    with the stainless hudee ring around it. That was kind of nifty
    looking; I wouldn't mind that. I currently have a drop-in cast enamel
    sink and laminate counter tops.
    I think wood and plastic are fragile for kitchen counter tops.
    The worst choice of counter top would be tile, IMHO. Gross and
    unsanitary, easy to stain the grout, and fairly fragile. Granite is too expensive, but that faux granite (quartz?) is less costly and more
    durable than granite.
    Big fan of soapstone, but as it is quite soft, prepare for scratches, nicks and minor damage. Impervious to stains and heat, and pairs well with an undermount soapstone farmhouse sink...
    Expensive, but does offer a natural and unique beauty that is hard to match.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Trew@21:1/5 to Bob Davis on Mon Mar 13 10:02:21 2023
    On 3/13/2023 0:30, Bob Davis wrote:
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 8:16:34 PM UTC-5, ritzann...@gmail.com
    wrote:
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 11:36:59 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

    Does anyone have any first-hand experience with wooded
    countertops? Pro& cons - beyond the need to refinish
    occasionally? Best types of wood, installation concerns, etc.

    I've never lived with them, but typically wooden counter tops are made
    of maple. I've heard that teak is more durable, and less likely to
    warp. Like any good cutting board, you'd want to rub wooden counters
    with teak oil from time to time to seal them; which also acts a
    disinfectant. Me personally, I'd like one larger "butcher block"
    counter spot for working, maybe 3 foot wide (perhaps on a kitchen
    island)... I'd go with laminate or the like for the rest of the surfaces.

    A BIG BIG BIG negative with a wood countertop, and a plastic
    laminate countertop, is the inability to do an undermounted sink.

    Personal preference; I don't care for the look of a modern under-mount
    sink. I grew up with a 50's porcelain cast double-basin under-mount,
    with the stainless hudee ring around it. That was kind of nifty
    looking; I wouldn't mind that. I currently have a drop-in cast enamel
    sink and laminate counter tops.

    I think wood and plastic are fragile for kitchen counter tops.

    The worst choice of counter top would be tile, IMHO. Gross and
    unsanitary, easy to stain the grout, and fairly fragile. Granite is too expensive, but that faux granite (quartz?) is less costly and more
    durable than granite.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Theo@21:1/5 to russellseaton1@yahoo.com on Mon Mar 13 17:02:30 2023
    russellseaton1@yahoo.com <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
    No experience with wood countertops. So I should not even be responding.
    ...
    But, plastic laminate does have one big advantage over wood. It is waterproof.

    [delurk]
    I have no real experience either, but been pondering this for a future renovation so interested in this thread. However I did stay in an AirBNB
    with wood countertops recently.

    The wooden countertops there were showing water discolouration around the
    sink. The wood itself was in good shape (not rotten or anything). The
    AirBNB in general hadn't been very well cared for so I have no idea how long the kitchen had been left unmaintained like that.

    This does give me pause about wood, although I'm not sure how much of a
    problem it is if done right.

    A BIG BIG BIG negative with a wood countertop, and a plastic laminate countertop, is the inability to do an undermounted sink.

    The current UK fashion is a porcelain sink in a wooden countertop, with 'draining board' grooves routed into it:

    https://www.istockphoto.com/photo/image-of-farmhouse-kitchen-belfast-butler-sink-real-wood-countertop-gm469629152-62363106

    I think this is a bad idea because it's inviting water onto the surface, and draining dishes is a constant source of fresh water to sit around (it never drains perfectly, and limescale etc builds up)

    You can get a separate drainer: https://www.toolstation.com/reginox-ceramic-sink-drainer/p80336
    or a sink with one integrated: https://norfolkreclamation.co.uk/stock/sanitary-ware/belfast-butler-sinks/large-butler-sink-and-drainer.html
    which might be a better plan.

    Is water soaking into the endgrain a problem?

    That would throw wood right out the door for me. I had an undermounted
    sink in my prior house. I would never ever go back to a top mounted stainless steel sink like you have with plastic laminate countertops. So easy to wipe water into the sink with an undermounted sink.

    I wonder if you could achieve that just by recessing the sink slightly -
    route a rebate (rabbet) so that the metal sink is flush with the surface?

    Theo

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Bob Davis on Mon Mar 13 14:14:30 2023
    On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 12:30:19 AM UTC-4, Bob Davis wrote:
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 8:16:34 PM UTC-5, ritzann...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 11:36:59 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    We've been shopping for new counter tops, exclusively looking at the standard "stone" options - quartz, quartzite, marble, soapstone, etc.

    Having not yet come across "the one", we've started doing some
    research into wooden countertops. While not excluding butcher block,
    I think we know enough about butcher block that we don't need to do
    much research on that specific product. It's all the other options that we are curious about.

    Does anyone have any first-hand experience with wooded countertops?
    Pro & cons - beyond the need to refinish occasionally? Best types of wood, installation concerns, etc. FWIW I have stick-build cabinets, built
    in the 50's. Adding blocking or corner bracing, etc. to support any type of
    counter top would be quite simple.

    Ping Leon - Some of the wooden counter websites mention the Rubio Monocoat products since it's food safe and easy to refinish. As you and I know, it's a breeze to work with.
    No experience with wood countertops. So I should not even be responding. But I am. Plastic laminate was used as the standard countertop from the 1950s up through the 1980s. And it worked just fine. Yes you had to use a hot pad underneath pots you
    took off the stove. And you had to use a cutting board when using a knife on the countertop. But those are just common sense things you should do anyway. And plastic laminate countertops worked fine for 30-40 years. Then fancy solid surface appeared and
    it was all the rage. Then a few years later granite came along. And quartz is the new man made wonder material. All work fine as countertops. So wood would work just fine too. You would need to be sort of careful with it like plastic laminate.

    But, plastic laminate does have one big advantage over wood. It is waterproof. Water does not harm plastic laminate at all. With wood, even with a finish, coating on it, is susceptible to water damage. Although maybe teak is sort of impervious to
    water. So you would have to be careful with water on a wood countertop. Wipe up spills immediately. Not let any water stand on the wood countertop.

    A BIG BIG BIG negative with a wood countertop, and a plastic laminate countertop, is the inability to do an undermounted sink. That would throw wood right out the door for me. I had an undermounted sink in my prior house. I would never ever go back
    to a top mounted stainless steel sink like you have with plastic laminate countertops. So easy to wipe water into the sink with an undermounted sink. For me, and maybe just me, but if a kitchen does not have an undermount sink, and is still using the old
    time drop in sink, then its not a nice kitchen. I don't care how fancy the cabinets or countertops are. If the kitchen is missing the most important functional detail, undermount sink, then I won't be happy.
    I think wood and plastic are fragile for kitchen counter tops. We have old Dupont Corian countertops. Some would view them as boring compared to granite or quartz. But they are tough and look as good as they did 25 years ago. We can set a hot skillet
    on them without concern. I think a counter top should not need to be treated like a baby. Wood seems to require caution and care. Granite needs to be sealed and resealed and can be damaged by a dropped pot. I guess we are kind of rough on a kitchen.

    I mean this in the nicest way when I agree with you when you say: "No experience
    with wood countertops. So I should not even be responding." ;-)

    I only say that because you followed that with this:

    "A BIG BIG BIG negative with a wood countertop ... is the inability to do an undermounted
    sink."

    I only say that because of this:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=wooden+counter+with+undermount+sinks&tbm=isch

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From ritzannaseaton@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 13 16:50:08 2023
    On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 4:14:33 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 12:30:19 AM UTC-4, Bob Davis wrote:
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 8:16:34 PM UTC-5, ritzann...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 11:36:59 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    We've been shopping for new counter tops, exclusively looking at the standard "stone" options - quartz, quartzite, marble, soapstone, etc.

    Having not yet come across "the one", we've started doing some research into wooden countertops. While not excluding butcher block,
    I think we know enough about butcher block that we don't need to do much research on that specific product. It's all the other options that
    we are curious about.

    Does anyone have any first-hand experience with wooded countertops? Pro & cons - beyond the need to refinish occasionally? Best types of wood, installation concerns, etc. FWIW I have stick-build cabinets, built
    in the 50's. Adding blocking or corner bracing, etc. to support any type of
    counter top would be quite simple.

    Ping Leon - Some of the wooden counter websites mention the Rubio Monocoat products since it's food safe and easy to refinish. As you and
    I know, it's a breeze to work with.
    No experience with wood countertops. So I should not even be responding. But I am. Plastic laminate was used as the standard countertop from the 1950s up through the 1980s. And it worked just fine. Yes you had to use a hot pad underneath pots you
    took off the stove. And you had to use a cutting board when using a knife on the countertop. But those are just common sense things you should do anyway. And plastic laminate countertops worked fine for 30-40 years. Then fancy solid surface appeared and
    it was all the rage. Then a few years later granite came along. And quartz is the new man made wonder material. All work fine as countertops. So wood would work just fine too. You would need to be sort of careful with it like plastic laminate.

    But, plastic laminate does have one big advantage over wood. It is waterproof. Water does not harm plastic laminate at all. With wood, even with a finish, coating on it, is susceptible to water damage. Although maybe teak is sort of impervious to
    water. So you would have to be careful with water on a wood countertop. Wipe up spills immediately. Not let any water stand on the wood countertop.

    A BIG BIG BIG negative with a wood countertop, and a plastic laminate countertop, is the inability to do an undermounted sink. That would throw wood right out the door for me. I had an undermounted sink in my prior house. I would never ever go back
    to a top mounted stainless steel sink like you have with plastic laminate countertops. So easy to wipe water into the sink with an undermounted sink. For me, and maybe just me, but if a kitchen does not have an undermount sink, and is still using the old
    time drop in sink, then its not a nice kitchen. I don't care how fancy the cabinets or countertops are. If the kitchen is missing the most important functional detail, undermount sink, then I won't be happy.
    I think wood and plastic are fragile for kitchen counter tops. We have old Dupont Corian countertops. Some would view them as boring compared to granite or quartz. But they are tough and look as good as they did 25 years ago. We can set a hot skillet
    on them without concern. I think a counter top should not need to be treated like a baby. Wood seems to require caution and care. Granite needs to be sealed and resealed and can be damaged by a dropped pot. I guess we are kind of rough on a kitchen.
    I mean this in the nicest way when I agree with you when you say: "No experience
    with wood countertops. So I should not even be responding." ;-)

    I only say that because you followed that with this:

    "A BIG BIG BIG negative with a wood countertop ... is the inability to do an undermounted
    sink."

    I only say that because of this:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=wooden+counter+with+undermount+sinks&tbm=isch

    I saw you can do an undermount sink with a post above. So I will admit my error on that. But with the end grain showing on the edges, it seems ripe for quick water damage. A year ago I roofed a house. Used an air compressor and coil nailer. Can't
    imagine there are any fools walking around today who would choose to use a manual hammer and nails for roofing an asphalt shingle roof. Just because it can be done, does not mean you should do it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Trew@21:1/5 to Theo on Mon Mar 13 22:12:22 2023
    On 3/13/2023 13:02, Theo wrote:
    The current UK fashion is a porcelain sink in a wooden countertop, with 'draining board' grooves routed into it:

    https://www.istockphoto.com/photo/image-of-farmhouse-kitchen-belfast-butler-sink-real-wood-countertop-gm469629152-62363106

    I think this is a bad idea because it's inviting water onto the surface, and draining dishes is a constant source of fresh water to sit around (it never drains perfectly, and limescale etc builds up)

    I agree, although I like the old-school concept. I have a double sink porcelain basin with a built-in drainboard on either side which is 60"
    long. It's not in my kitchen, but it's sitting in my garage, with a
    rusty "Youngstown Kitchens" metal cabinet below it. I've been meaning
    to sand it down and restore it. I might even install it into my kitchen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Trew@21:1/5 to russellseaton1@yahoo.com on Mon Mar 13 22:16:26 2023
    On 3/13/2023 19:50, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
    On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 4:14:33 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=wooden+counter+with+undermount+sinks&tbm=isch

    I saw you can do an undermount sink with a post above. So I will
    admit my error on that. But with the end grain showing on the edges,
    it seems ripe for quick water damage. A year ago I roofed a house.
    Used an air compressor and coil nailer. Can't imagine there are any
    fools walking around today who would choose to use a manual hammer
    and nails for roofing an asphalt shingle roof. Just because it can
    be done, does not mean you should do it.

    Since I don't have a good portable air compressor, I would do a small
    roof with nail and hammer. As a matter of fact, I'll be doing my front
    porch roof by hand this summer. Anything larger than a porch, and I'll
    pass on that.

    I used to hear an advertisement for a roofing company on the radio, who
    claimed that they hand nail each and every shingle for "unmatched
    durability" or something like that; almost as if the roof was
    hand-carved. I'm not sure if that actually makes it more durable, but I imagine that they charge more for that job than someone with an air
    compressor and a nail gun.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to ritzann...@gmail.com on Tue Mar 14 02:21:38 2023
    On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 7:50:10 PM UTC-4, ritzann...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 4:14:33 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 12:30:19 AM UTC-4, Bob Davis wrote:
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 8:16:34 PM UTC-5, ritzann...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 11:36:59 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    We've been shopping for new counter tops, exclusively looking at the standard "stone" options - quartz, quartzite, marble, soapstone, etc.

    Having not yet come across "the one", we've started doing some research into wooden countertops. While not excluding butcher block, I think we know enough about butcher block that we don't need to do much research on that specific product. It's all the other options that
    we are curious about.

    Does anyone have any first-hand experience with wooded countertops? Pro & cons - beyond the need to refinish occasionally? Best types of wood, installation concerns, etc. FWIW I have stick-build cabinets, built
    in the 50's. Adding blocking or corner bracing, etc. to support any type of
    counter top would be quite simple.

    Ping Leon - Some of the wooden counter websites mention the Rubio Monocoat products since it's food safe and easy to refinish. As you and
    I know, it's a breeze to work with.
    No experience with wood countertops. So I should not even be responding. But I am. Plastic laminate was used as the standard countertop from the 1950s up through the 1980s. And it worked just fine. Yes you had to use a hot pad underneath pots you
    took off the stove. And you had to use a cutting board when using a knife on the countertop. But those are just common sense things you should do anyway. And plastic laminate countertops worked fine for 30-40 years. Then fancy solid surface appeared and
    it was all the rage. Then a few years later granite came along. And quartz is the new man made wonder material. All work fine as countertops. So wood would work just fine too. You would need to be sort of careful with it like plastic laminate.

    But, plastic laminate does have one big advantage over wood. It is waterproof. Water does not harm plastic laminate at all. With wood, even with a finish, coating on it, is susceptible to water damage. Although maybe teak is sort of impervious to
    water. So you would have to be careful with water on a wood countertop. Wipe up spills immediately. Not let any water stand on the wood countertop.

    A BIG BIG BIG negative with a wood countertop, and a plastic laminate countertop, is the inability to do an undermounted sink. That would throw wood right out the door for me. I had an undermounted sink in my prior house. I would never ever go
    back to a top mounted stainless steel sink like you have with plastic laminate countertops. So easy to wipe water into the sink with an undermounted sink. For me, and maybe just me, but if a kitchen does not have an undermount sink, and is still using
    the old time drop in sink, then its not a nice kitchen. I don't care how fancy the cabinets or countertops are. If the kitchen is missing the most important functional detail, undermount sink, then I won't be happy.
    I think wood and plastic are fragile for kitchen counter tops. We have old Dupont Corian countertops. Some would view them as boring compared to granite or quartz. But they are tough and look as good as they did 25 years ago. We can set a hot
    skillet on them without concern. I think a counter top should not need to be treated like a baby. Wood seems to require caution and care. Granite needs to be sealed and resealed and can be damaged by a dropped pot. I guess we are kind of rough on a
    kitchen.
    I mean this in the nicest way when I agree with you when you say: "No experience
    with wood countertops. So I should not even be responding." ;-)

    I only say that because you followed that with this:

    "A BIG BIG BIG negative with a wood countertop ... is the inability to do an undermounted
    sink."

    I only say that because of this:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=wooden+counter+with+undermount+sinks&tbm=isch
    I saw you can do an undermount sink with a post above. So I will admit my error on that. But with the end grain showing on the edges, it seems ripe for quick water damage. A year ago I roofed a house. Used an air compressor and coil nailer. Can't
    imagine there are any fools walking around today who would choose to use a manual hammer and nails for roofing an asphalt shingle roof. Just because it can be done, does not mean you should do it.

    Thanks, but your track record for things that you can't imagine
    proceeds you. ("A BIG BIG BIG ... is the inability to do an
    undermounted sink.")

    Those that choose to use a hammer and nails are fools?
    Seriously?

    Moving on...right after this:

    https://glumber.com/wood-finish/butcher-block-oil-finish/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to Michael Trew on Tue Mar 14 15:05:28 2023
    Michael Trew <michael.trew@att.net> writes:
    On 3/13/2023 13:02, Theo wrote:
    The current UK fashion is a porcelain sink in a wooden countertop, with
    'draining board' grooves routed into it:

    https://www.istockphoto.com/photo/image-of-farmhouse-kitchen-belfast-butler-sink-real-wood-countertop-gm469629152-62363106

    I think this is a bad idea because it's inviting water onto the surface, and >> draining dishes is a constant source of fresh water to sit around (it never >> drains perfectly, and limescale etc builds up)

    I agree, although I like the old-school concept. I have a double sink >porcelain basin with a built-in drainboard on either side which is 60"
    long. It's not in my kitchen, but it's sitting in my garage, with a
    rusty "Youngstown Kitchens" metal cabinet below it. I've been meaning
    to sand it down and restore it. I might even install it into my kitchen.

    When my father built his cabin on the river (combining three 150 year old
    log cabins), he used some reclaimed bowling alley lane material
    (maple) for the kitchen island surface, which had a built-in sink (not undermounted). Neither he nor I would make the same choice
    today (25 years later).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to Michael Trew on Tue Mar 14 15:01:51 2023
    Michael Trew <michael.trew@att.net> writes:
    On 3/13/2023 19:50, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
    On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 4:14:33 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=wooden+counter+with+undermount+sinks&tbm=isch

    I saw you can do an undermount sink with a post above. So I will
    admit my error on that. But with the end grain showing on the edges,
    it seems ripe for quick water damage. A year ago I roofed a house.
    Used an air compressor and coil nailer. Can't imagine there are any
    fools walking around today who would choose to use a manual hammer
    and nails for roofing an asphalt shingle roof. Just because it can
    be done, does not mean you should do it.

    Since I don't have a good portable air compressor, I would do a small
    roof with nail and hammer. As a matter of fact, I'll be doing my front
    porch roof by hand this summer. Anything larger than a porch, and I'll
    pass on that.

    You can rent one for the day from any number of tool rental places,
    including many home depots and/or lowes.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to Michael Trew on Tue Mar 14 14:05:31 2023
    On 3/13/2023 9:16 PM, Michael Trew wrote:
    On 3/13/2023 19:50, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
    On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 4:14:33 PM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=wooden+counter+with+undermount+sinks&tbm=isch

    I saw you can do an undermount sink with a post above.  So I will
    admit my error on that.  But with the end grain showing on the edges,
    it seems ripe for quick water damage.  A year ago I roofed a house.
    Used an air compressor and coil nailer.  Can't imagine there are any
    fools walking around today who would choose to use a manual hammer
    and nails for roofing an asphalt shingle roof.  Just because it can
    be done, does not mean you should do it.

    Since I don't have a good portable air compressor, I would do a small
    roof with nail and hammer.  As a matter of fact, I'll be doing my front porch roof by hand this summer.  Anything larger than a porch, and I'll
    pass on that.

    I used to hear an advertisement for a roofing company on the radio, who claimed that they hand nail each and every shingle for "unmatched
    durability" or something like that; almost as if the roof was
    hand-carved.  I'm not sure if that actually makes it more durable, but I imagine that they charge more for that job than someone with an air compressor and a nail gun.


    You really don't need a good portable air compressor for nail guns.
    Think Harbor Freight. I used to use a 10 gallon air tank, no
    compressor, when I did not need to shoot over 20 nails at a customers
    home. Nailers are low volume users, you just need the 120#+ pressure.

    Hand nailing as a selling feature simply means that the owner did not
    want to keep replacing stolen compressors and worn out hoses/nailers.
    I would much rather my roof go on with a nail gun than a hammer. The
    guy with the gun will not hesitate to put in the proper amount of nails.
    The guy with the hammer may skimp in hard to reach areas.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to Michael Trew on Tue Mar 14 13:56:57 2023
    On 3/13/2023 9:02 AM, Michael Trew wrote:


    Personal preference; I don't care for the look of a modern under-mount sink.  I grew up with a 50's porcelain cast double-basin under-mount,
    with the stainless hudee ring around it.  That was kind of nifty
    looking; I wouldn't mind that.  I currently have a drop-in cast enamel
    sink and laminate counter tops.

    We have had them all, drop in self rimming, undermount with the SS rim
    sitting on top of the counter and currently the undermount with no rim.
    A smooth surface to wipe debris straight into the sink is preferable for us.




    I think wood and plastic are fragile for kitchen counter tops.

    The worst choice of counter top would be tile, IMHO.  Gross and
    unsanitary, easy to stain the grout, and fairly fragile.  Granite is too expensive, but that faux granite (quartz?) is less costly and more
    durable than granite.

    Sooo down in Houston Quartz is more expensive than granite.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Scott Lurndal on Tue Mar 14 11:53:40 2023
    On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 11:05:34 AM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrote:
    Michael Trew <michae...@att.net> writes:
    On 3/13/2023 13:02, Theo wrote:
    The current UK fashion is a porcelain sink in a wooden countertop, with >> 'draining board' grooves routed into it:

    https://www.istockphoto.com/photo/image-of-farmhouse-kitchen-belfast-butler-sink-real-wood-countertop-gm469629152-62363106

    I think this is a bad idea because it's inviting water onto the surface, and
    draining dishes is a constant source of fresh water to sit around (it never
    drains perfectly, and limescale etc builds up)

    I agree, although I like the old-school concept. I have a double sink >porcelain basin with a built-in drainboard on either side which is 60" >long. It's not in my kitchen, but it's sitting in my garage, with a
    rusty "Youngstown Kitchens" metal cabinet below it. I've been meaning
    to sand it down and restore it. I might even install it into my kitchen. When my father built his cabin on the river (combining three 150 year old log cabins), he used some reclaimed bowling alley lane material
    (maple) for the kitchen island surface, which had a built-in sink (not undermounted). Neither he nor I would make the same choice
    today (25 years later).

    A reason (or reasons) why would be helpful to this discussion.

    As a young adult (more than 25 years ago) we used to frequent a club that
    that was housed in a former bowling alley. Instead of buying tables, they simply cut the lanes into various sizes and made tables and 2 bars with
    them. They had everything from small tables for 4 to really long tables
    for 10 or more on each side.

    They had one bar in the front of the establishment and one in the (huge)
    back room where the bands performed. Twisted Sister was a "local band"
    back them and was a regular at the club.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xmckWVPRaI

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to All on Tue Mar 14 13:51:08 2023
    On 3/12/2023 11:36 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    We've been shopping for new counter tops, exclusively looking at the
    standard "stone" options - quartz, quartzite, marble, soapstone, etc.

    Having not yet come across "the one", we've started doing some
    research into wooden countertops. While not excluding butcher block,
    I think we know enough about butcher block that we don't need to do
    much research on that specific product. It's all the other options that
    we are curious about.

    Does anyone have any first-hand experience with wooded countertops?
    Pro & cons - beyond the need to refinish occasionally? Best types of
    wood, installation concerns, etc. FWIW I have stick-build cabinets, built
    in the 50's. Adding blocking or corner bracing, etc. to support any type of counter top would be quite simple.

    Ping Leon - Some of the wooden counter websites mention the Rubio
    Monocoat products since it's food safe and easy to refinish. As you and
    I know, it's a breeze to work with.


    So here is my experience with wood in the kitchen. I made a sliding
    cutting board to fit over our sink. Hot pans get set on the cutting
    board and it leaves scorch marks.

    As you know, wood will be a maintenance item. Knife cut marks will
    show. Dents will show.

    We are right in the same situation as you. We are choosing Quartz.

    With wood I would do the cutting board style, multiple face to face
    pieced glued together to guard against warping over time. Not flat
    boards like on a piece of furniture. ASLO prefinish the back edge and
    bottom before installation. You need to do a good job sealing around
    the sink area so that you don't have spots that water can hide and cause
    mold. I would not want an under mount sink at all with wood. Your
    cabinets are probably fine with out additional reinforcing for a wood
    counter top but if it is easy to do it can't hurt.

    That said, I would consider at least hard maple and possibly Ipe.
    Walnut, Cherry, soft Maple will get dings with little effort.

    With man made stone products, Quartz, you have little to no maintenance
    and it is repairable should you chip or break it. Typically Quartz
    comes in 2cm and 3cm thicknesses. Obviously the 2cm is less expensive
    if YOU are the fabricator and installer. You being the installer would
    be if you used 2cm and build up the edge to make the slab appear
    thicker, 4cm. If you are having quartz installed 3cm is stronger and
    less labor to install as it does not have to be built up. Also
    additional blocking/reinforcement under the slab is not needed. So in
    our case 4 separate tops the 3cm is going to be less than the 2cm, less
    work and cabinet prep.

    With the understanding that the wood counter top will require regular maintenance, I would also use Rubio. It will be the easiest to refinish
    should you need to sand out marks, dents, or burns. Keep in mind that
    Rubio, once opened, has about a 2 year life span, so don't buy more than
    you need for the first time around and maybe buy smaller bottles/cans
    for future repairs. This stuff comes in 2 oz sample bottles and that
    could probably be enough to do a repair. This stuff goes a looooong way.

    FWIW I'm considering using Rubio for out cabinet doors and drawer
    fronts, walnut rails and stiles with white oak pin stripes. White Oak
    book matched plywood center panels.

    One other thing, if you "ever" think you want to replace the sink, now
    might be the time to do it especially if going with under mount.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Leon on Tue Mar 14 12:09:01 2023
    On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 2:51:22 PM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
    On 3/12/2023 11:36 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    We've been shopping for new counter tops, exclusively looking at the standard "stone" options - quartz, quartzite, marble, soapstone, etc.

    Having not yet come across "the one", we've started doing some
    research into wooden countertops. While not excluding butcher block,
    I think we know enough about butcher block that we don't need to do
    much research on that specific product. It's all the other options that
    we are curious about.

    Does anyone have any first-hand experience with wooded countertops?
    Pro & cons - beyond the need to refinish occasionally? Best types of
    wood, installation concerns, etc. FWIW I have stick-build cabinets, built in the 50's. Adding blocking or corner bracing, etc. to support any type of
    counter top would be quite simple.

    Ping Leon - Some of the wooden counter websites mention the Rubio
    Monocoat products since it's food safe and easy to refinish. As you and
    I know, it's a breeze to work with.
    So here is my experience with wood in the kitchen. I made a sliding
    cutting board to fit over our sink. Hot pans get set on the cutting
    board and it leaves scorch marks.

    As you know, wood will be a maintenance item. Knife cut marks will
    show. Dents will show.

    We are right in the same situation as you. We are choosing Quartz.

    With wood I would do the cutting board style, multiple face to face
    pieced glued together to guard against warping over time. Not flat
    boards like on a piece of furniture. ASLO prefinish the back edge and
    bottom before installation. You need to do a good job sealing around
    the sink area so that you don't have spots that water can hide and cause mold. I would not want an under mount sink at all with wood. Your
    cabinets are probably fine with out additional reinforcing for a wood counter top but if it is easy to do it can't hurt.

    That said, I would consider at least hard maple and possibly Ipe.
    Walnut, Cherry, soft Maple will get dings with little effort.

    With man made stone products, Quartz, you have little to no maintenance
    and it is repairable should you chip or break it. Typically Quartz
    comes in 2cm and 3cm thicknesses. Obviously the 2cm is less expensive
    if YOU are the fabricator and installer. You being the installer would
    be if you used 2cm and build up the edge to make the slab appear
    thicker, 4cm. If you are having quartz installed 3cm is stronger and
    less labor to install as it does not have to be built up. Also
    additional blocking/reinforcement under the slab is not needed. So in
    our case 4 separate tops the 3cm is going to be less than the 2cm, less
    work and cabinet prep.

    With the understanding that the wood counter top will require regular maintenance, I would also use Rubio. It will be the easiest to refinish should you need to sand out marks, dents, or burns. Keep in mind that
    Rubio, once opened, has about a 2 year life span, so don't buy more than
    you need for the first time around and maybe buy smaller bottles/cans
    for future repairs. This stuff comes in 2 oz sample bottles and that
    could probably be enough to do a repair. This stuff goes a looooong way.

    As you may recall, I used the Rubio Hybrid exterior finish on the sectional I built for the deck. I do indeed know how "long" of a way this product goes.
    I also know how easy it is to apply and repair, having done both. In my case, I finished each board individually before assembly and then touched up
    the plugs afterwards. Everything just blended together. Love that stuff! ;-)

    https://i.imgur.com/3NUjvm4.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/w8tQLJ3.jpg


    FWIW I'm considering using Rubio for out cabinet doors and drawer
    fronts, walnut rails and stiles with white oak pin stripes. White Oak
    book matched plywood center panels.

    One other thing, if you "ever" think you want to replace the sink, now
    might be the time to do it especially if going with under mount.

    Oh, the sink is definitely going. It's a very old drop-in porcelain coated
    sink with the metal band around it. As far as I know, it's original to the
    65+ YO house. No way I'm dropping $K's on a counter top and not
    replacing the sink.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Tue Mar 14 19:52:37 2023
    DerbyDad03 <teamarrows@eznet.net> writes:
    On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 11:05:34=E2=80=AFAM UTC-4, Scott Lurndal wrot= >e:
    Michael Trew <michae...@att.net> writes:=20
    On 3/13/2023 13:02, Theo wrote:=20
    The current UK fashion is a porcelain sink in a wooden countertop, wit= >h=20
    'draining board' grooves routed into it:=20
    =20
    https://www.istockphoto.com/photo/image-of-farmhouse-kitchen-belfast-b= >utler-sink-real-wood-countertop-gm469629152-62363106=20
    =20
    I think this is a bad idea because it's inviting water onto the surfac= >e, and=20
    draining dishes is a constant source of fresh water to sit around (it = >never=20
    drains perfectly, and limescale etc builds up)=20
    =20
    I agree, although I like the old-school concept. I have a double sink=20
    porcelain basin with a built-in drainboard on either side which is 60"= >=20
    long. It's not in my kitchen, but it's sitting in my garage, with a=20
    rusty "Youngstown Kitchens" metal cabinet below it. I've been meaning=20
    to sand it down and restore it. I might even install it into my kitchen.
    When my father built his cabin on the river (combining three 150 year old= >=20
    log cabins), he used some reclaimed bowling alley lane material=20
    (maple) for the kitchen island surface, which had a built-in sink (not=20
    undermounted). Neither he nor I would make the same choice=20
    today (25 years later).

    A reason (or reasons) why would be helpful to this discussion.

    Water damage was the primary issue, maintenance secondary. If he'd
    used an epoxy-based bartop finish, that may have helped.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to All on Tue Mar 14 14:31:32 2023
    On 3/14/2023 2:09 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:


    Oh, the sink is definitely going. It's a very old drop-in porcelain coated sink with the metal band around it. As far as I know, it's original to the 65+ YO house. No way I'm dropping $K's on a counter top and not
    replacing the sink.

    So you are likely going to be spending a pretty penny for the counter tops.

    And if you go with an under mount you might consider a "work station"
    style sink. We are going from an under mount SS double bowl to an
    under SS single bowl work station. If you have the room, you might
    consider that option too. My wife thought she wanted to go back with
    the double sink but after many friends going to the single sink over the
    double they have said never again on the double. More room to
    clean/wash larger pots and pans.


    We/I remodeled our previous kitchen and went with a cast iron self
    rimming Kohler sink. It was a huge double and weighed about 150 lbs.
    Never again.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Theo@21:1/5 to Leon on Tue Mar 14 20:33:20 2023
    Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
    So here is my experience with wood in the kitchen. I made a sliding
    cutting board to fit over our sink. Hot pans get set on the cutting
    board and it leaves scorch marks.

    As you know, wood will be a maintenance item. Knife cut marks will
    show. Dents will show.

    Do people actually cut things directly on their countertops? I've always
    had laminated chipboard, and that's not robust to knives or heat. You use chopping boards and heat resistant pan stands.

    Laminate isn't robust against denting either (although perhaps the chipboard
    is more so than a softwood), but usually the way they fail is the edging
    strips peel off.

    To me the attraction of wood is those marks can be sanded out, whereas with another type the marks are permanent. Although it's a tradeoff about ease
    of refinishing to remove marks against being resistant to marks in the first place.

    One other thing, if you "ever" think you want to replace the sink, now
    might be the time to do it especially if going with under mount.

    That is one thing to think about - later on, if you have to replace the sink without replacing the countertop, whether it'll fit the old cutout or how
    easy it is to make a new cutout. Obviously it'll be harder to make the
    cutout smaller further down the road.

    (in one place, the sink was enamelled steel and the enamel got chipped and later wore through. Pressed stainless steel sinks also seem to bend out of shape so they don't drain properly. I'd probably consider a composite
    ceramic sink in future, which seems to last better as long as you don't drop heavy things in it)

    Theo

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Trew@21:1/5 to All on Tue Mar 14 18:19:19 2023
    On 3/14/2023 15:09, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    Oh, the sink is definitely going. It's a very old drop-in porcelain coated sink with the metal band around it. As far as I know, it's original to the 65+ YO house. No way I'm dropping $K's on a counter top and not
    replacing the sink.

    If it's one of these, that's called a hudee ring (metal), and you
    actually have an under-mount sink. My father didn't believe me when he
    was removing his, from the late 1950s... until he had most of the
    brackets underneath removed, and the sink nearly fell on his head. He
    thought the little brackets held the ring in place... uh, no, those be
    the under-mount sink brackets.

    Pic: https://postimg.cc/PPrs00Rc

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Michael Trew@21:1/5 to Leon on Tue Mar 14 18:24:13 2023
    On 3/14/2023 14:56, Leon wrote:

    We have had them all, drop in self rimming, undermount with the SS rim sitting on top of the counter and currently the undermount with no rim.
    A smooth surface to wipe debris straight into the sink is preferable for
    us.

    To each their own. I get the practicality, but I think the sinks set
    down with the counter over the top rim are unsightly, IMHO.

    I love those old 40's - 50's era enamel sinks with the drainboard built
    in, but you'd have to have a nicely restored mid-century kitchen, or
    else it will stand out like a sore thumb. Keep in mind, I don't have a dishwasher.

    Sooo down in Houston Quartz is more expensive than granite.

    That's pretty wild. "Faux granite" is far cheaper in Ohio... or was the
    last time I checked. Perhaps people caught on that it is more durable
    and stain resistant.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Michael Trew on Tue Mar 14 16:46:58 2023
    On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 6:19:20 PM UTC-4, Michael Trew wrote:
    On 3/14/2023 15:09, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    Oh, the sink is definitely going. It's a very old drop-in porcelain coated sink with the metal band around it. As far as I know, it's original to the 65+ YO house. No way I'm dropping $K's on a counter top and not
    replacing the sink.
    If it's one of these, that's called a hudee ring (metal), and you
    actually have an under-mount sink. My father didn't believe me when he
    was removing his, from the late 1950s... until he had most of the
    brackets underneath removed, and the sink nearly fell on his head. He thought the little brackets held the ring in place... uh, no, those be
    the under-mount sink brackets.

    Pic: https://postimg.cc/PPrs00Rc

    You are correct. Right after I typed "drop in" and hit send I realized that I had had one of those "I know what I said but it's not what I meant" moments.

    I figured since the sink is going away anyway, it doesn't matter, so I didn't post a correction. ;-) But you are correct, I have the brackets and I know what they are for.

    Thanks for keeping me honest. ;-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Michael Trew on Tue Mar 14 18:12:35 2023
    On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 6:24:16 PM UTC-4, Michael Trew wrote:
    On 3/14/2023 14:56, Leon wrote:

    We have had them all, drop in self rimming, undermount with the SS rim sitting on top of the counter and currently the undermount with no rim.
    A smooth surface to wipe debris straight into the sink is preferable for us.
    To each their own. I get the practicality, but I think the sinks set
    down with the counter over the top rim are unsightly, IMHO.

    And then there's the integrated sink where the counter and sink are
    one. i.e. no "counter over the top rim"

    https://www.google.com/search?&q=kitchen+integrated+sink&tbm=isch


    I love those old 40's - 50's era enamel sinks with the drainboard built
    in, but you'd have to have a nicely restored mid-century kitchen, or
    else it will stand out like a sore thumb. Keep in mind, I don't have a dishwasher.
    Sooo down in Houston Quartz is more expensive than granite.
    That's pretty wild. "Faux granite" is far cheaper in Ohio... or was the
    last time I checked. Perhaps people caught on that it is more durable
    and stain resistant.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to Theo on Tue Mar 14 20:24:39 2023
    On 3/14/2023 3:33 PM, Theo wrote:
    Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> wrote:
    So here is my experience with wood in the kitchen. I made a sliding
    cutting board to fit over our sink. Hot pans get set on the cutting
    board and it leaves scorch marks.

    As you know, wood will be a maintenance item. Knife cut marks will
    show. Dents will show.

    Do people actually cut things directly on their countertops? I've always
    had laminated chipboard, and that's not robust to knives or heat. You use chopping boards and heat resistant pan stands.

    If the counter top is a giant cutting board, possibly so.


    Laminate isn't robust against denting either (although perhaps the chipboard is more so than a softwood), but usually the way they fail is the edging strips peel off.

    To me the attraction of wood is those marks can be sanded out, whereas with another type the marks are permanent. Although it's a tradeoff about ease
    of refinishing to remove marks against being resistant to marks in the first place.

    One other thing, if you "ever" think you want to replace the sink, now
    might be the time to do it especially if going with under mount.

    That is one thing to think about - later on, if you have to replace the sink without replacing the countertop, whether it'll fit the old cutout or how easy it is to make a new cutout. Obviously it'll be harder to make the cutout smaller further down the road.

    There is that and the size of the supporting cabinet below will dictate
    the size of the new sink.

    (in one place, the sink was enamelled steel and the enamel got chipped and later wore through. Pressed stainless steel sinks also seem to bend out of shape so they don't drain properly. I'd probably consider a composite ceramic sink in future, which seems to last better as long as you don't drop heavy things in it)

    Theo

    There are several grades of SS. I can easily imagine some denting and
    bending. But our SS sink is 12 years old and has no dents or dings. The
    sink that we are looking at as a replacement is 16 gauge SS. vs the
    thinner versions.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Casper@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 15 19:11:49 2023
    I can't really add much to what's already been said about wood but if
    you love it, just learn to care for it properly.

    Have several family and friends who insisted on granite. At least one
    regrets it now. He inisisted he had to be able to put hot pots and
    pans on it with no worries. Told him not a good idea. Fast forward 4
    years. Now they're prepping for house resale and replacing half the
    counters due to huge cracks caused by hot stuff.

    Does heat expansion affect granite?
    Results show that with increasing temperature, the uneven thermal
    expansion and thermal shock effect of minerals promote crack
    development, leading to increases in the porosity and permeability of
    granite, particularly at temperatures above 450C.

    He refused to talk to me about house stuff ever again. It was either
    when I told him his contractor hung the hanging lamps too close to the
    end cabinets so they could not open all the way. (He never bothered to
    have them fixed.) Or when I said wood handled knives in the dishwasher
    was bad. (He went thru 3 knife sets in that 4 years.) Live and learn.

    May you be happy with whatever you choose.

    DerbyDad03 was heard to mutter:

    We've been shopping for new counter tops, exclusively looking at the
    standard "stone" options - quartz, quartzite, marble, soapstone, etc.

    Having not yet come across "the one", we've started doing some
    research into wooden countertops. While not excluding butcher block,
    I think we know enough about butcher block that we don't need to do
    much research on that specific product. It's all the other options that
    we are curious about.

    Does anyone have any first-hand experience with wooded countertops?
    Pro & cons - beyond the need to refinish occasionally? Best types of
    wood, installation concerns, etc. FWIW I have stick-build cabinets, built
    in the 50's. Adding blocking or corner bracing, etc. to support any type of >counter top would be quite simple.

    Ping Leon - Some of the wooden counter websites mention the Rubio
    Monocoat products since it's food safe and easy to refinish. As you and
    I know, it's a breeze to work with.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Casper on Wed Mar 15 17:37:55 2023
    On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:11:57 PM UTC-4, Casper wrote:
    I can't really add much to what's already been said about wood but if
    you love it, just learn to care for it properly.

    Have several family and friends who insisted on granite. At least one regrets it now. He inisisted he had to be able to put hot pots and
    pans on it with no worries. Told him not a good idea. Fast forward 4
    years. Now they're prepping for house resale and replacing half the
    counters due to huge cracks caused by hot stuff.

    Did he by chance have an electric stovetop?

    If not, I wonder why he “had to be able to put hot pots and
    pans” on his counter top.

    SWMBO loves to cook and often has all 4 gas burners going.
    Turn them off, leave the pots where they are. No problem.
    On the rare occasion when she needs a burner and all the
    pots are hot, there’s a gazillion way to protect the counter
    top from the heat.

    Really curious about what his insistence was all about.

    P.S. Our next range will be duel fuel model. 5 burner gas
    stovetop with an electric oven. All the convenience of a
    gas stovetop with the even heat of an electric oven.


    Does heat expansion affect granite?
    Results show that with increasing temperature, the uneven thermal
    expansion and thermal shock effect of minerals promote crack
    development, leading to increases in the porosity and permeability of granite, particularly at temperatures above 450°C.

    He refused to talk to me about house stuff ever again. It was either
    when I told him his contractor hung the hanging lamps too close to the
    end cabinets so they could not open all the way. (He never bothered to
    have them fixed.) Or when I said wood handled knives in the dishwasher
    was bad. (He went thru 3 knife sets in that 4 years.) Live and learn.

    May you be happy with whatever you choose.

    DerbyDad03 was heard to mutter:

    We've been shopping for new counter tops, exclusively looking at the >standard "stone" options - quartz, quartzite, marble, soapstone, etc.

    Having not yet come across "the one", we've started doing some
    research into wooden countertops. While not excluding butcher block,
    I think we know enough about butcher block that we don't need to do
    much research on that specific product. It's all the other options that
    we are curious about.

    Does anyone have any first-hand experience with wooded countertops?
    Pro & cons - beyond the need to refinish occasionally? Best types of
    wood, installation concerns, etc. FWIW I have stick-build cabinets, built >in the 50's. Adding blocking or corner bracing, etc. to support any type of >counter top would be quite simple.

    Ping Leon - Some of the wooden counter websites mention the Rubio
    Monocoat products since it's food safe and easy to refinish. As you and
    I know, it's a breeze to work with.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Davis@21:1/5 to Michael Trew on Thu Mar 16 04:33:13 2023
    On Monday, March 13, 2023 at 9:02:28 AM UTC-5, Michael Trew wrote:
    On 3/13/2023 0:30, Bob Davis wrote:
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 8:16:34 PM UTC-5, ritzann...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Sunday, March 12, 2023 at 11:36:59 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:

    Does anyone have any first-hand experience with wooded
    countertops? Pro& cons - beyond the need to refinish
    occasionally? Best types of wood, installation concerns, etc.
    I've never lived with them, but typically wooden counter tops are made
    of maple. I've heard that teak is more durable, and less likely to
    warp. Like any good cutting board, you'd want to rub wooden counters
    with teak oil from time to time to seal them; which also acts a disinfectant. Me personally, I'd like one larger "butcher block"
    counter spot for working, maybe 3 foot wide (perhaps on a kitchen
    island)... I'd go with laminate or the like for the rest of the surfaces.
    A BIG BIG BIG negative with a wood countertop, and a plastic
    laminate countertop, is the inability to do an undermounted sink.
    Personal preference; I don't care for the look of a modern under-mount
    sink. I grew up with a 50's porcelain cast double-basin under-mount,
    with the stainless hudee ring around it. That was kind of nifty
    looking; I wouldn't mind that. I currently have a drop-in cast enamel
    sink and laminate counter tops.
    I think wood and plastic are fragile for kitchen counter tops.
    The worst choice of counter top would be tile, IMHO. Gross and
    unsanitary, easy to stain the grout, and fairly fragile. Granite is too expensive, but that faux granite (quartz?) is less costly and more
    durable than granite.

    I had counter tops custom made of 12"x12" floor tiles in our kitchen. These were strongest, thickest floor tiles and they never chipped or scratched. We used sealer on all the grout and never had issues with staining. When we sold the house, the
    kitchen countertops had been in heavy use for 10 years. I would consider doing it again. It was beautiful.

    Bob

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 16 07:57:50 2023
    On 3/15/2023 7:37 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:11:57 PM UTC-4, Casper wrote:
    I can't really add much to what's already been said about wood but if
    you love it, just learn to care for it properly.

    Have several family and friends who insisted on granite. At least one
    regrets it now. He inisisted he had to be able to put hot pots and
    pans on it with no worries. Told him not a good idea. Fast forward 4
    years. Now they're prepping for house resale and replacing half the
    counters due to huge cracks caused by hot stuff.

    Did he by chance have an electric stovetop?

    If not, I wonder why he “had to be able to put hot pots and
    pans” on his counter top.


    SWMBO loves to cook and often has all 4 gas burners going.
    Turn them off, leave the pots where they are. No problem.
    On the rare occasion when she needs a burner and all the
    pots are hot, there’s a gazillion way to protect the counter
    top from the heat.

    Really curious about what his insistence was all about.

    P.S. Our next range will be duel fuel model. 5 burner gas
    stovetop with an electric oven. All the convenience of a
    gas stovetop with the even heat of an electric oven.

    My wife learned to cook on gas, but wanted it and never had gas until 12
    years ago. We got rid of gas about 3 years ago. She went induction for
    the top and convection for the bottom. Cabinets stay cleaner with out
    the residue that comes with cooking with gas.

    Her is why. Induction boils water faster than gas. If you have a spill
    it is easy to clean up "Immediately" with a paper towel. The cook top
    remains relatively cool, just the pan heats up. The surface is smooth.
    When she saw a demo of heating to boil a pan of up water on top of a
    paper towel and the water spilling over onto the towel she was sold. The
    guy lifted the pan of boiling water grabbed the paper towel and wiped
    the water off of the surface. Nothing bakes on the surface. Best of
    all the CO2 levels in our home don't go up cooking with electricity. I
    was shocked how much CO2 built up while she was cooking with gas, and
    that was measured from the living room. Food for thought.







    Does heat expansion affect granite?
    Results show that with increasing temperature, the uneven thermal
    expansion and thermal shock effect of minerals promote crack
    development, leading to increases in the porosity and permeability of
    granite, particularly at temperatures above 450°C.

    He refused to talk to me about house stuff ever again. It was either
    when I told him his contractor hung the hanging lamps too close to the
    end cabinets so they could not open all the way. (He never bothered to
    have them fixed.) Or when I said wood handled knives in the dishwasher
    was bad. (He went thru 3 knife sets in that 4 years.) Live and learn.

    May you be happy with whatever you choose.

    DerbyDad03 was heard to mutter:

    We've been shopping for new counter tops, exclusively looking at the
    standard "stone" options - quartz, quartzite, marble, soapstone, etc.

    Having not yet come across "the one", we've started doing some
    research into wooden countertops. While not excluding butcher block,
    I think we know enough about butcher block that we don't need to do
    much research on that specific product. It's all the other options that
    we are curious about.

    Does anyone have any first-hand experience with wooded countertops?
    Pro & cons - beyond the need to refinish occasionally? Best types of
    wood, installation concerns, etc. FWIW I have stick-build cabinets, built >>> in the 50's. Adding blocking or corner bracing, etc. to support any type of >>> counter top would be quite simple.

    Ping Leon - Some of the wooden counter websites mention the Rubio
    Monocoat products since it's food safe and easy to refinish. As you and
    I know, it's a breeze to work with.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to Leon on Thu Mar 16 14:49:55 2023
    Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
    On 3/15/2023 7:37 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    . Best of
    all the CO2 levels in our home don't go up cooking with electricity. I
    was shocked how much CO2 built up while she was cooking with gas, and
    that was measured from the living room. Food for thought.

    Were you using the exhaust fan while cooking with gas?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Casper@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 16 11:27:57 2023
    He never really gave me a clear answer for the hot stuff on counters.
    I suspect it was because his previous home had formica and it got
    heavily burnt from pots? Never saw a trivit in the house.

    His stove was a hi-end pro gas unit.

    He was insistant on a few things, like knives with wood handles able
    to go into the dishwasher (warranty was denied). Or having a garbage
    disposal he could put everything into including bones (replaced after
    6 mos). Or a specific car (BMW6) which had the driver seat heat up so
    much it burned holes in itself and his coat.

    I stopped having conversations with him about such things because it
    only seemed to frustrate and irritate him into hostile reactions.

    He was stubborn fellow who sadly passed away last year at age 60,
    roughly 2 years after his wife who passed at 59.

    DerbyDad03 was heard to mutter:
    Did he by chance have an electric stovetop?

    If not, I wonder why he had to be able to put hot pots and
    pans on his counter top.

    SWMBO loves to cook and often has all 4 gas burners going.
    Turn them off, leave the pots where they are. No problem.
    On the rare occasion when she needs a burner and all the
    pots are hot, theres a gazillion way to protect the counter
    top from the heat.

    Really curious about what his insistence was all about.

    P.S. Our next range will be duel fuel model. 5 burner gas
    stovetop with an electric oven. All the convenience of a
    gas stovetop with the even heat of an electric oven.


    On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:11:57?PM UTC-4, Casper wrote:
    I can't really add much to what's already been said about wood but if
    you love it, just learn to care for it properly.

    Have several family and friends who insisted on granite. At least one
    regrets it now. He inisisted he had to be able to put hot pots and
    pans on it with no worries. Told him not a good idea. Fast forward 4
    years. Now they're prepping for house resale and replacing half the
    counters due to huge cracks caused by hot stuff.

    Does heat expansion affect granite?
    Results show that with increasing temperature, the uneven thermal
    expansion and thermal shock effect of minerals promote crack
    development, leading to increases in the porosity and permeability of
    granite, particularly at temperatures above 450C.

    He refused to talk to me about house stuff ever again. It was either
    when I told him his contractor hung the hanging lamps too close to the
    end cabinets so they could not open all the way. (He never bothered to
    have them fixed.) Or when I said wood handled knives in the dishwasher
    was bad. (He went thru 3 knife sets in that 4 years.) Live and learn.

    May you be happy with whatever you choose.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to Scott Lurndal on Thu Mar 16 11:16:45 2023
    On 3/16/2023 9:49 AM, Scott Lurndal wrote:
    Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> writes:
    On 3/15/2023 7:37 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    . Best of
    all the CO2 levels in our home don't go up cooking with electricity. I
    was shocked how much CO2 built up while she was cooking with gas, and
    that was measured from the living room. Food for thought.

    Were you using the exhaust fan while cooking with gas?

    Yes! But just stepping away from the cook top and back creates a breeze
    far greater than the suction at the cook top level. This was witnessed
    by steam coming up from the pots and not being sucked into the vent.
    And yes the filters were not clogged.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to Casper on Thu Mar 16 11:29:01 2023
    On 3/16/2023 10:27 AM, Casper wrote:
    He never really gave me a clear answer for the hot stuff on counters.
    I suspect it was because his previous home had formica and it got
    heavily burnt from pots? Never saw a trivit in the house.

    His stove was a hi-end pro gas unit.

    He was insistant on a few things, like knives with wood handles able
    to go into the dishwasher (warranty was denied). Or having a garbage
    disposal he could put everything into including bones (replaced after
    6 mos). Or a specific car (BMW6) which had the driver seat heat up so
    much it burned holes in itself and his coat.

    I stopped having conversations with him about such things because it
    only seemed to frustrate and irritate him into hostile reactions.

    Some people, don't know enough about most everything that they don't
    understand what they don't know.

    My nephew's wife is like that, 50 years old. She claims she is smarter
    than most every one and actually claimed that she could run Microsoft,
    but does not work. But she has a CPA do their taxes. Oh, and Covid,
    that is a government conspiracy. AND, LOL, she change their family
    doctor because he charted all of their kids as unvaccinated, for any
    disease. Another conspiracy theory. I'm thinking that the doctor
    does not want to rule out diseases that most patients have been
    vaccinated for. So they live in a cocoon environment.




    He was stubborn fellow who sadly passed away last year at age 60,
    roughly 2 years after his wife who passed at 59.

    DerbyDad03 was heard to mutter:
    Did he by chance have an electric stovetop?

    If not, I wonder why he “had to be able to put hot pots and
    pans” on his counter top.

    SWMBO loves to cook and often has all 4 gas burners going.
    Turn them off, leave the pots where they are. No problem.
    On the rare occasion when she needs a burner and all the
    pots are hot, there’s a gazillion way to protect the counter
    top from the heat.

    Really curious about what his insistence was all about.

    P.S. Our next range will be duel fuel model. 5 burner gas
    stovetop with an electric oven. All the convenience of a
    gas stovetop with the even heat of an electric oven.


    On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 7:11:57?PM UTC-4, Casper wrote:
    I can't really add much to what's already been said about wood but if
    you love it, just learn to care for it properly.

    Have several family and friends who insisted on granite. At least one
    regrets it now. He inisisted he had to be able to put hot pots and
    pans on it with no worries. Told him not a good idea. Fast forward 4
    years. Now they're prepping for house resale and replacing half the
    counters due to huge cracks caused by hot stuff.

    Does heat expansion affect granite?
    Results show that with increasing temperature, the uneven thermal
    expansion and thermal shock effect of minerals promote crack
    development, leading to increases in the porosity and permeability of
    granite, particularly at temperatures above 450°C.

    He refused to talk to me about house stuff ever again. It was either
    when I told him his contractor hung the hanging lamps too close to the
    end cabinets so they could not open all the way. (He never bothered to
    have them fixed.) Or when I said wood handled knives in the dishwasher
    was bad. (He went thru 3 knife sets in that 4 years.) Live and learn.

    May you be happy with whatever you choose.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Casper@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 17 20:17:27 2023
    Some people, don't know enough about most everything that they don't >understand what they don't know.

    Unfortunately true. It really gets me is they don't even try to learn.

    My nephew's wife is like that, 50 years old. She claims she is smarter
    than most every one and actually claimed that she could run Microsoft,
    but does not work. But she has a CPA do their taxes. Oh, and Covid,
    that is a government conspiracy. AND, LOL, she change their family
    doctor because he charted all of their kids as unvaccinated, for any
    disease. Another conspiracy theory. I'm thinking that the doctor
    does not want to rule out diseases that most patients have been
    vaccinated for. So they live in a cocoon environment.
    Leon

    Yeah, I have some relatives like that and some on the opposite side. A
    niece has yearly Christmas party and July 4th BBQ fosr entire family.
    The past year she inisited everyone be vaccinated like her family. The
    only ones who have gotten Covid were like her, whoo are constantly
    traveling all over. She got it last Thanksgiving and is still not
    fully back to normal. They decided to move out of state and avoid the
    family disagreements and conspiracy ideas. All of them live in one
    bubble or another. I think I'll stay in my own and learn more about
    woodwork and stuff. A much easier experience that way. LOL!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)