• Watch Out Woodpeckers

    From Leon@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 18 10:00:09 2022
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 18 17:46:49 2022
    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 10:00:09 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:


    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1



    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    I've seen that but it seems like a better place to put the money would
    a good down payment on a DominoXL.

    I want to see how they're going to get the fifth piece of the pentagon
    into place without bunging up the mortises.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Leon on Mon Jul 18 18:06:11 2022
    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 11:00:19 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table

    I'm clueless here, so I'll ask: Do you agree with this statement?

    "While the Festool Domino DF 500 is excellent for a wide range of
    joinery, it can be difficult to register correctly on narrow pieces."

    Is that the problem that your "one oversized mortise" technique solves?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Mon Jul 18 21:52:57 2022
    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 18:06:11 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
    <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 11:00:19 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table

    I'm clueless here, so I'll ask: Do you agree with this statement?

    "While the Festool Domino DF 500 is excellent for a wide range of
    joinery, it can be difficult to register correctly on narrow pieces."

    The "trim stop" centers mortises on narrow stock but it is limited to
    90degrees (the end of rectangular stock).

    Is that the problem that your "one oversized mortise" technique solves?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill@21:1/5 to Leon on Mon Jul 18 23:35:36 2022
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You
    can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel
    and line extra. Line itself can be $129. I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and
    spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
    used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have
    the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
    I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
    $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
    that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
    doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
    boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and trailers).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to Bill on Tue Jul 19 09:31:55 2022
    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 23:35:36 -0400, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You
    can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel
    and line extra. Line itself can be $129. I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and >spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I >currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
    used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have
    the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
    I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200, >$1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly >fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
    that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
    doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
    boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and >trailers).

    I agree that if it's your hobby and can fit it into the budget,
    hobbies don't have to be justified but it's not so much as the amount
    of money, rather the silly and unnecessary product at the absurd
    price. The Domino machine is expensive ($1000) but these "joinery
    stations" for similar money are nuts.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Tue Jul 19 10:42:19 2022
    On 7/18/2022 4:46 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 10:00:09 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:


    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1



    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    I've seen that but it seems like a better place to put the money would
    a good down payment on a DominoXL.

    Well the XL covers all of the ranges for Domino's but do you build heavy
    doors or large conference tables?

    My Domino 500 is 14 years old now. Wow! I was interested in the XL
    until I saw it up close and picked it up.
    IMHO it is way freaking heavy and too large to use as easily as the 500.
    The 500 gets heavy after a hundred or so mortises. And if you spend
    that much money you want to use it a lot. I have literally used my 500,
    10 times more than both of my previous biscuit joiners combined. I
    would say that unless you are building things bigger and heavier than
    furniture that the 500 would suite 98% of your needs. Just saying.
    Now if you "just want" the XL there is no problem with that from me. I
    just wanted you to know that unless you are going to do a lot of BIG
    stuff the 500 would likely be just fine.

    I will say that in late 2007 I just wanted the 500 and thought of how I
    could use it. I had no idea how much I would actually use it. I have
    said this before going, back 3~5 years ago, I have cut in excess of
    10,000 mortises with just the 5mm bit alone. Besides the 600, 5mm
    dominos that came in the assortment I have purchased 3 cases of 1,800, 5
    mm dominos.





    I want to see how they're going to get the fifth piece of the pentagon
    into place without bunging up the mortises.


    ?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to Bill on Tue Jul 19 15:40:44 2022
    On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You
    can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod").  Reel
    and line extra.  Line itself can be $129.

    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band
    saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on.


    I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
    used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have
    the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
    I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200, $1500....  I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
    that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
    doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
    boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and trailers).


    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are
    seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the
    other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened
    when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
    of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case
    Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell
    station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon.
    That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jul 19 15:24:49 2022
    On 7/18/2022 8:06 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Monday, July 18, 2022 at 11:00:19 AM UTC-4, Leon wrote:
    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table

    I'm clueless here, so I'll ask: Do you agree with this statement?

    "While the Festool Domino DF 500 is excellent for a wide range of
    joinery, it can be difficult to register correctly on narrow pieces."

    I think these after market tools are aimed at those that will buy
    anything, and have no real experience.

    There is no issue with registering on narrow pieces any more than with a biscuit joiner. In fact the bigger kit, that you can get with the
    domino, it has a centering attachment that attaches to the flip down
    fence and accomplishes almost the same for 90 degree cuts. Now narrow
    picture frame stock may be more difficult but I build furniture and
    never have an issue with alignment.


    Is that the problem that your "one oversized mortise" technique solves?

    I think so. ALTHOUGH very narrow and or moldings would be more
    difficult to cut at all unless registering off the flat back side.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Tue Jul 19 15:54:28 2022
    On 7/19/2022 8:31 AM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 23:35:36 -0400, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You
    can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel
    and line extra. Line itself can be $129. I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and
    spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I
    currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
    used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have
    the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
    I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
    $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly
    fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
    that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
    doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
    boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and
    trailers).

    I agree that if it's your hobby and can fit it into the budget,
    hobbies don't have to be justified but it's not so much as the amount
    of money, rather the silly and unnecessary product at the absurd
    price. The Domino machine is expensive ($1000) but these "joinery
    stations" for similar money are nuts.


    Absolutely!!! It is your money and if you can afford it you do not
    have to justify it.

    But I still try to justify. I absolutely do not need a new router
    table set up. But a new one would be nice.

    I just saw an electronic lift AND fence. Not available at this time but
    New Wave, Shark CNC, makes/made it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jul 19 18:04:21 2022
    On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 15:40:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You
    can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel
    and line extra. Line itself can be $129.

    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band
    saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on.

    Like that.


    I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and
    spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I
    currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
    used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have
    the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
    I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
    $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly
    fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
    that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
    doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
    boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and
    trailers).


    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are
    seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the
    other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened
    when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
    of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case
    Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell
    station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon.
    That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    I paid $3.46 yesterday at Sam's, with another $.17 off for using their MasterCard (the card works anywhere).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jul 19 18:00:12 2022
    On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 15:54:28 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 7/19/2022 8:31 AM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 23:35:36 -0400, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You >>> can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel
    and line extra. Line itself can be $129. I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and
    spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I
    currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
    used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have >>> the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
    I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
    $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly >>> fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
    that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
    doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
    boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and >>> trailers).

    I agree that if it's your hobby and can fit it into the budget,
    hobbies don't have to be justified but it's not so much as the amount
    of money, rather the silly and unnecessary product at the absurd
    price. The Domino machine is expensive ($1000) but these "joinery
    stations" for similar money are nuts.


    Absolutely!!! It is your money and if you can afford it you do not
    have to justify it.

    But I still try to justify. I absolutely do not need a new router
    table set up. But a new one would be nice.

    I just saw an electronic lift AND fence. Not available at this time but
    New Wave, Shark CNC, makes/made it.

    I've seen many of those over the years. I always thought "that's
    neat, but why?". IIRC, JessEm had one at one time. They just have
    the table with a height adjustment crank on the end. Again, why?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jul 19 17:42:54 2022
    On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 10:42:19 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 7/18/2022 4:46 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 10:00:09 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:


    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1



    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    I've seen that but it seems like a better place to put the money would
    a good down payment on a DominoXL.

    Well the XL covers all of the ranges for Domino's but do you build heavy >doors or large conference tables?

    Use two Dominos.

    My Domino 500 is 14 years old now. Wow! I was interested in the XL
    until I saw it up close and picked it up.

    Exactly. The Domino is heavy enough.

    IMHO it is way freaking heavy and too large to use as easily as the 500.
    The 500 gets heavy after a hundred or so mortises.

    IMO, the DF500 should have better ergonomics. A handle in the back,
    perhaps sideways would go a long way. I don't like barrel-grip saber
    saws, so perhaps it's just me.

    And if you spend
    that much money you want to use it a lot. I have literally used my 500,
    10 times more than both of my previous biscuit joiners combined.

    I used my PC biscuit jointer exactly once. I hated the thing. It's
    supposed to be one of the better ones but it's junk. Perhaps mine is
    defective but there was no way to align anything with it.

    would say that unless you are building things bigger and heavier than >furniture that the 500 would suite 98% of your needs. Just saying.
    Now if you "just want" the XL there is no problem with that from me. I
    just wanted you to know that unless you are going to do a lot of BIG
    stuff the 500 would likely be just fine.

    I will say that in late 2007 I just wanted the 500 and thought of how I
    could use it. I had no idea how much I would actually use it. I have
    said this before going, back 3~5 years ago, I have cut in excess of
    10,000 mortises with just the 5mm bit alone. Besides the 600, 5mm
    dominos that came in the assortment I have purchased 3 cases of 1,800, 5
    mm dominos.





    I want to see how they're going to get the fifth piece of the pentagon
    into place without bunging up the mortises.


    ?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Tue Jul 19 17:36:56 2022
    On 7/19/2022 5:04 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 15:40:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You >>> can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod").  Reel >>> and line extra.  Line itself can be $129.

    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band
    saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on.

    Like that.


    I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and
    spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I
    currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
    used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have >>> the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
    I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
    $1500....  I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly >>> fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
    that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
    doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
    boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and >>> trailers).


    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are
    seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the
    other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened
    when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
    of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case
    Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell
    station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon.
    That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    I paid $3.46 yesterday at Sam's, with another $.17 off for using their MasterCard (the card works anywhere).

    I mostly only use Shell, I want the additives and detergents. I use a Mastercard that gives me back 2% on all purchases so I use it for
    everything. Then Shell gives me 10 cents back when I use my Kroger points.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Tue Jul 19 17:32:01 2022
    On 7/19/2022 5:00 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 15:54:28 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 7/19/2022 8:31 AM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 23:35:36 -0400, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You >>>> can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel >>>> and line extra. Line itself can be $129. I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and >>>> spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I >>>> currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually >>>> used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have >>>> the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay. >>>> I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
    $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly >>>> fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter >>>> that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
    doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
    boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and >>>> trailers).

    I agree that if it's your hobby and can fit it into the budget,
    hobbies don't have to be justified but it's not so much as the amount
    of money, rather the silly and unnecessary product at the absurd
    price. The Domino machine is expensive ($1000) but these "joinery
    stations" for similar money are nuts.


    Absolutely!!! It is your money and if you can afford it you do not
    have to justify it.

    But I still try to justify. I absolutely do not need a new router
    table set up. But a new one would be nice.

    I just saw an electronic lift AND fence. Not available at this time but
    New Wave, Shark CNC, makes/made it.

    I've seen many of those over the years. I always thought "that's
    neat, but why?". IIRC, JessEm had one at one time. They just have
    the table with a height adjustment crank on the end. Again, why?


    The electronic fence would work like the Incra fancy fence with the
    massive cursor lock mechanism. So moving the fence to cut spaced DT's
    or box joint tails would be quick and accurate. And that is about it, although grooves and dados can be programed to cut any size larger than
    the bit with out the bit being the correct size. Tell the fence wher the
    dado should be and what size bit is in the router. Something like The
    Shaper Origin.



    I looked at the JessEm table wit the side crank. And the mechanism is
    the Mast-R-Lift. The only advantage I see is that each crank is 1/8"
    instead of 1/32, faster? Disadvantage is no 1/001" dial indicator and
    if the table broke the lift probably does not come off. You would have
    to use a Wixey style electronic measure. And that may not be a bad
    idea anyway.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jul 19 20:31:36 2022
    On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 17:36:56 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 7/19/2022 5:04 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 15:40:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You >>>> can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel >>>> and line extra. Line itself can be $129.

    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band
    saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on.

    Like that.


    I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and >>>> spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I >>>> currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually >>>> used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have >>>> the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay. >>>> I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
    $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly >>>> fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter >>>> that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
    doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
    boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and >>>> trailers).


    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are
    seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the
    other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened
    when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer >>> of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case
    Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell
    station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon.
    That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    I paid $3.46 yesterday at Sam's, with another $.17 off for using their
    MasterCard (the card works anywhere).

    I mostly only use Shell, I want the additives and detergents. I use a >Mastercard that gives me back 2% on all purchases so I use it for
    everything. Then Shell gives me 10 cents back when I use my Kroger points.

    We use the Kroger points and the 5% Sam's MasterCard still works. You
    can't beat the Sam's card for gas. Costco's Visa is 4%.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jul 19 20:29:14 2022
    On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 17:32:01 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 7/19/2022 5:00 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 15:54:28 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 7/19/2022 8:31 AM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 23:35:36 -0400, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You >>>>> can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel >>>>> and line extra. Line itself can be $129. I think they figured that >>>>> you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and >>>>> spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I >>>>> currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually >>>>> used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have >>>>> the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay. >>>>> I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200, >>>>> $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly >>>>> fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter >>>>> that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually >>>>> doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small >>>>> boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and >>>>> trailers).

    I agree that if it's your hobby and can fit it into the budget,
    hobbies don't have to be justified but it's not so much as the amount
    of money, rather the silly and unnecessary product at the absurd
    price. The Domino machine is expensive ($1000) but these "joinery
    stations" for similar money are nuts.


    Absolutely!!! It is your money and if you can afford it you do not
    have to justify it.

    But I still try to justify. I absolutely do not need a new router
    table set up. But a new one would be nice.

    I just saw an electronic lift AND fence. Not available at this time but >>> New Wave, Shark CNC, makes/made it.

    I've seen many of those over the years. I always thought "that's
    neat, but why?". IIRC, JessEm had one at one time. They just have
    the table with a height adjustment crank on the end. Again, why?


    The electronic fence would work like the Incra fancy fence with the
    massive cursor lock mechanism. So moving the fence to cut spaced DT's
    or box joint tails would be quick and accurate. And that is about it, >although grooves and dados can be programed to cut any size larger than
    the bit with out the bit being the correct size. Tell the fence wher the
    dado should be and what size bit is in the router. Something like The >Shaper Origin.

    Isn't that just a bit of overkill just to cut a groove?



    I looked at the JessEm table wit the side crank. And the mechanism is
    the Mast-R-Lift. The only advantage I see is that each crank is 1/8" >instead of 1/32, faster? Disadvantage is no 1/001" dial indicator and
    if the table broke the lift probably does not come off. You would have
    to use a Wixey style electronic measure. And that may not be a bad
    idea anyway.

    I'm not a big fan of Wixey, though I did put one on my planer
    yesterday. I bought it some time back. The installation looked pretty
    hokey so never put it on. I was right. The installation is hokey.
    Double-stick tape just doesn't seem right. Well see how useful it is
    and how long it lasts. They seem to work but they're really cheaply
    made.

    I bought their table saw fence gauge a little over ten years ago (I
    was in my previous house so can date it somewhat). It was OK but the
    head kept dying and it was a battery killer. I gave up on it but I
    haven't taken the rail off because it's not in the way. Yet.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill@21:1/5 to Leon on Tue Jul 19 23:22:05 2022
    On 7/19/2022 4:40 PM, Leon wrote:

    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue.   We are
    seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues.  Gasoline on the
    other hand falls under 2 categories,   supply and demand, what happened when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
    of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear".   In this case
    Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon.   3 miles away a Shell
    station is at $4.29 per gallon.    And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon.
    That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    Evidently the market will bear $4.46 here in the midwest today, and that
    is down from about $4.85. ! You are fortunate with those prices! : )

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Wed Jul 20 10:16:36 2022
    On 7/19/2022 7:29 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 17:32:01 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 7/19/2022 5:00 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 15:54:28 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 7/19/2022 8:31 AM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Mon, 18 Jul 2022 23:35:36 -0400, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You >>>>>> can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel >>>>>> and line extra. Line itself can be $129. I think they figured that >>>>>> you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and >>>>>> spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I >>>>>> currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually >>>>>> used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have >>>>>> the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay. >>>>>> I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200, >>>>>> $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly >>>>>> fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter >>>>>> that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually >>>>>> doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small >>>>>> boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and >>>>>> trailers).

    I agree that if it's your hobby and can fit it into the budget,
    hobbies don't have to be justified but it's not so much as the amount >>>>> of money, rather the silly and unnecessary product at the absurd
    price. The Domino machine is expensive ($1000) but these "joinery
    stations" for similar money are nuts.


    Absolutely!!! It is your money and if you can afford it you do not
    have to justify it.

    But I still try to justify. I absolutely do not need a new router
    table set up. But a new one would be nice.

    I just saw an electronic lift AND fence. Not available at this time but >>>> New Wave, Shark CNC, makes/made it.

    I've seen many of those over the years. I always thought "that's
    neat, but why?". IIRC, JessEm had one at one time. They just have
    the table with a height adjustment crank on the end. Again, why?


    The electronic fence would work like the Incra fancy fence with the
    massive cursor lock mechanism. So moving the fence to cut spaced DT's
    or box joint tails would be quick and accurate. And that is about it,
    although grooves and dados can be programed to cut any size larger than
    the bit with out the bit being the correct size. Tell the fence wher the
    dado should be and what size bit is in the router. Something like The
    Shaper Origin.

    Isn't that just a bit of overkill just to cut a groove?

    Absolutely, I cut those on my TS anyway, much faster.

    But it would be handy for cutting DT Joints.





    I looked at the JessEm table wit the side crank. And the mechanism is
    the Mast-R-Lift. The only advantage I see is that each crank is 1/8"
    instead of 1/32, faster? Disadvantage is no 1/001" dial indicator and
    if the table broke the lift probably does not come off. You would have
    to use a Wixey style electronic measure. And that may not be a bad
    idea anyway.

    I'm not a big fan of Wixey, though I did put one on my planer
    yesterday. I bought it some time back. The installation looked pretty
    hokey so never put it on. I was right. The installation is hokey. Double-stick tape just doesn't seem right. Well see how useful it is
    and how long it lasts. They seem to work but they're really cheaply
    made.

    I added a Wixey to my jointer/planer combo machine. It is fixed to he
    steel cabinet and attaches to the planer table via rare earth magnet to
    move the sensor up and down. Works great, IIRC it uses AAA batteries
    too. I had a Wixey on my Delta 15" planer and it sucked at best.


    I bought their table saw fence gauge a little over ten years ago (I
    was in my previous house so can date it somewhat). It was OK but the
    head kept dying and it was a battery killer. I gave up on it but I
    haven't taken the rail off because it's not in the way. Yet.

    Good to know. I have no trouble reading the rule on my fence front bar.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to Bill on Wed Jul 20 20:27:48 2022
    On Tue, 19 Jul 2022 23:22:05 -0400, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

    On 7/19/2022 4:40 PM, Leon wrote:

    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are
    seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the
    other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened
    when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
    of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case
    Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell
    station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon.
    That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    Evidently the market will bear $4.46 here in the midwest today, and that
    is down from about $4.85. ! You are fortunate with those prices! : )

    Some of that is the state gas tax. TX is #39 for tax at $.20/gal. AK
    is #50 at $.124 and NJ at $.145. At the other end are CA, NY and CT at
    around $.50/gal.

    GA has a tax "holiday" while the prices are high so, at least in
    theory, our prices reflect that. The state has a large surplus so
    everyone who paid tax last year (and the year before?), got a $500
    check and there is enough left over to cover the shortfall from the
    gas tax holiday.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Puckdropper@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Thu Jul 21 09:28:41 2022
    krw@notreal.com wrote in
    news:q3jedhpl7p6t2j4unqsr53mpc7jv4doi14@4ax.com:


    We use the Kroger points and the 5% Sam's MasterCard still works. You
    can't beat the Sam's card for gas. Costco's Visa is 4%.


    Is Sam's time limited? Citi/Costco was for the first year only.

    Puckdropper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Davis@21:1/5 to Leon on Thu Jul 21 06:17:17 2022
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:40:56 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel
    and line extra. Line itself can be $129.
    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band
    saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on.
    I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
    used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
    I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200, $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
    boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and trailers).
    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are
    seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the
    other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened
    when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
    of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case
    Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell
    station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon.
    That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    If you cost out those big purchases on a per use basis, the Sawstop may be the cheapest tool in your whole shop.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 21 10:53:33 2022
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 09:28:41 GMT, Puckdropper <puckdropper@yahoo.com>
    wrote:

    krw@notreal.com wrote in
    news:q3jedhpl7p6t2j4unqsr53mpc7jv4doi14@4ax.com:


    We use the Kroger points and the 5% Sam's MasterCard still works. You
    can't beat the Sam's card for gas. Costco's Visa is 4%.


    Is Sam's time limited? Citi/Costco was for the first year only.

    No. I've had their card for several years. In addition, some months
    they have special deals. In April it was 10% anywhere on Tuesdays (I
    happened to be coming home from Ohio on a Tuesday. In June it was 10%
    on Saturdays only at Sam's.

    I didn't know Costco was a teaser. I was a member for a year when
    they first opened here (across the street from Sam's) but we never
    bought anything there so dropped our membership.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to wrobertdavis@gmail.com on Thu Jul 21 11:06:13 2022
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 06:17:17 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrobertdavis@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:40:56 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You >> > can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel
    and line extra. Line itself can be $129.
    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band
    saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on.
    I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and
    spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I
    currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
    used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have >> > the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
    I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
    $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly >> > fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
    that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
    doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
    boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and >> > trailers).
    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are
    seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the
    other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened
    when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
    of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case
    Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell
    station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon.
    That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    If you cost out those big purchases on a per use basis, the Sawstop may be the cheapest tool in your whole shop.

    Huh? That one flew over my head. Cost increase? I guess you haven't
    been looking at tool prices. They haven't doubled but My jointer's
    price increased $700 from the time I bought it in June (they weren't
    shipping yet) to when I received it in October. I think the dust
    collectors went up $1000. All of Laguna's tools have increased like
    that. Jet had a similar, if not larger, increase. Tools haven't gone
    up 100% during the Bidden administration, as gas has.

    OTOH, if you look at lifetime cost, % increase, or any other measure,
    gas has them all beat. Festool had a 5% increase but it's an outlier.
    It wouldn't surprise me if they had a second, larger, increase this
    year.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to Bob Davis on Thu Jul 21 10:13:15 2022
    On 7/21/2022 8:17 AM, Bob Davis wrote:
    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:40:56 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You >>> can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel
    and line extra. Line itself can be $129.
    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band
    saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on.
    I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and
    spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I
    currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
    used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have >>> the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
    I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
    $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly >>> fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
    that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
    doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
    boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and >>> trailers).
    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are
    seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the
    other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened
    when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
    of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case
    Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell
    station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon.
    That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    If you cost out those big purchases on a per use basis, the Sawstop may be the cheapest tool in your whole shop.


    All of my stuff has paid for itself. But the Domino may be better in
    return. 7 cents per plunge as of about 4 years ago. ;~) Plus the cost
    of about 4 cents per Domino tenon bought in bulk.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Davis@21:1/5 to k...@notreal.com on Thu Jul 21 08:40:48 2022
    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 10:06:19 AM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 06:17:17 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:40:56 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You
    can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel >> > and line extra. Line itself can be $129.
    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band
    saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on.
    I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and >> > spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I >> > currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually >> > used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have
    the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay. >> > I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200, >> > $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly >> > fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter >> > that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually >> > doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
    boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and
    trailers).
    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are
    seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the
    other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened
    when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer >> of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case
    Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell
    station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon.
    That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    If you cost out those big purchases on a per use basis, the Sawstop may be the cheapest tool in your whole shop.
    Huh? That one flew over my head. Cost increase? I guess you haven't
    been looking at tool prices. They haven't doubled but My jointer's
    price increased $700 from the time I bought it in June (they weren't shipping yet) to when I received it in October. I think the dust
    collectors went up $1000. All of Laguna's tools have increased like
    that. Jet had a similar, if not larger, increase. Tools haven't gone
    up 100% during the Bidden administration, as gas has.

    OTOH, if you look at lifetime cost, % increase, or any other measure,
    gas has them all beat. Festool had a 5% increase but it's an outlier.
    It wouldn't surprise me if they had a second, larger, increase this
    year.

    I think my point must have been obscure. Its not about % increase or inflation. I've invested in several big purchases like Leon. The sawstop industrial saw was my first really big purchase and I had to think long and hard about it. I use it multiple
    times on every project. I've tripped the brake cartridge 3 times. I have never had to adjust it. In terms of safety and use for my hobby it is off the charts in value to me. I would gladly buy it again, no matter what the price.

    Bob

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Thu Jul 21 10:20:13 2022
    On 7/21/2022 10:06 AM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 06:17:17 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrobertdavis@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:40:56 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You >>>> can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel >>>> and line extra. Line itself can be $129.
    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band
    saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on.
    I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and >>>> spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I >>>> currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually >>>> used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have >>>> the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay. >>>> I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
    $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly >>>> fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter >>>> that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
    doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
    boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and >>>> trailers).
    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are
    seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the
    other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened
    when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer >>> of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case
    Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell
    station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon.
    That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    If you cost out those big purchases on a per use basis, the Sawstop may be the cheapest tool in your whole shop.

    Huh? That one flew over my head. Cost increase? I guess you haven't
    been looking at tool prices. They haven't doubled but My jointer's
    price increased $700 from the time I bought it in June (they weren't
    shipping yet) to when I received it in October. I think the dust
    collectors went up $1000. All of Laguna's tools have increased like
    that. Jet had a similar, if not larger, increase. Tools haven't gone
    up 100% during the Bidden administration, as gas has.

    Yes tools have gone up I Ordered a 12" Jet jointer/planer combo at
    Thanksgiving 2020 and paid $3600 with the 15% sale. It was delivered in January of last year.

    Currently $5600, Two thousand dollars more.




    OTOH, if you look at lifetime cost, % increase, or any other measure,
    gas has them all beat. Festool had a 5% increase but it's an outlier.
    It wouldn't surprise me if they had a second, larger, increase this
    year.


    I have noticed that Festool's price change/increase is sometimes, on
    some items, a price drop. Go figure.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to wrobertdavis@gmail.com on Thu Jul 21 20:35:31 2022
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:40:48 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrobertdavis@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 10:06:19 AM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 06:17:17 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:40:56 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You
    can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel >> >> > and line extra. Line itself can be $129.
    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band
    saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on.
    I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and >> >> > spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I >> >> > currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually >> >> > used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have
    the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay. >> >> > I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200, >> >> > $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly >> >> > fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter >> >> > that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually >> >> > doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
    boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and
    trailers).
    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are
    seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the
    other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened
    when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer >> >> of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case
    Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell
    station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon.
    That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear. >> >
    If you cost out those big purchases on a per use basis, the Sawstop may be the cheapest tool in your whole shop.
    Huh? That one flew over my head. Cost increase? I guess you haven't
    been looking at tool prices. They haven't doubled but My jointer's
    price increased $700 from the time I bought it in June (they weren't
    shipping yet) to when I received it in October. I think the dust
    collectors went up $1000. All of Laguna's tools have increased like
    that. Jet had a similar, if not larger, increase. Tools haven't gone
    up 100% during the Bidden administration, as gas has.

    OTOH, if you look at lifetime cost, % increase, or any other measure,
    gas has them all beat. Festool had a 5% increase but it's an outlier.
    It wouldn't surprise me if they had a second, larger, increase this
    year.

    I think my point must have been obscure. Its not about % increase or inflation. I've invested in several big purchases like Leon. The sawstop industrial saw was my first really big purchase and I had to think long and hard about it. I use it
    multiple times on every project. I've tripped the brake cartridge 3 times. I have never had to adjust it. In terms of safety and use for my hobby it is off the charts in value to me. I would gladly buy it again, no matter what the price.

    Y\I was thinking about what you wrote and I see where you were going.
    If a SawStop is a huge investment considering the time use, it was
    still twice what my Unisaw cost, or a Harvey or Laguna today.

    Safety is another, unquantifiable, matter. I'm not going $4-5000 on a
    new saw (that is so seldom used ;-) when I have a perfectly
    serviceable saw.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Thu Jul 21 21:59:04 2022
    On 7/21/2022 7:35 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:40:48 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrobertdavis@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 10:06:19 AM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 06:17:17 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:40:56 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You >>>>>> can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel >>>>>> and line extra. Line itself can be $129.
    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band >>>>> saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on.
    I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and >>>>>> spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I >>>>>> currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually >>>>>> used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have >>>>>> the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay. >>>>>> I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200, >>>>>> $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly >>>>>> fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter >>>>>> that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually >>>>>> doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small >>>>>> boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and >>>>>> trailers).
    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are
    seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the >>>>> other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened >>>>> when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer >>>>> of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case
    Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell
    station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon.
    That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear. >>>>
    If you cost out those big purchases on a per use basis, the Sawstop may be the cheapest tool in your whole shop.
    Huh? That one flew over my head. Cost increase? I guess you haven't
    been looking at tool prices. They haven't doubled but My jointer's
    price increased $700 from the time I bought it in June (they weren't
    shipping yet) to when I received it in October. I think the dust
    collectors went up $1000. All of Laguna's tools have increased like
    that. Jet had a similar, if not larger, increase. Tools haven't gone
    up 100% during the Bidden administration, as gas has.

    OTOH, if you look at lifetime cost, % increase, or any other measure,
    gas has them all beat. Festool had a 5% increase but it's an outlier.
    It wouldn't surprise me if they had a second, larger, increase this
    year.

    I think my point must have been obscure. Its not about % increase or inflation. I've invested in several big purchases like Leon. The sawstop industrial saw was my first really big purchase and I had to think long and hard about it. I use it
    multiple times on every project. I've tripped the brake cartridge 3 times. I have never had to adjust it. In terms of safety and use for my hobby it is off the charts in value to me. I would gladly buy it again, no matter what the price.

    Y\I was thinking about what you wrote and I see where you were going.
    If a SawStop is a huge investment considering the time use, it was
    still twice what my Unisaw cost, or a Harvey or Laguna today.

    Safety is another, unquantifiable, matter. I'm not going $4-5000 on a
    new saw (that is so seldom used ;-) when I have a perfectly
    serviceable saw.

    Absolutely. While the 3 of us can most likely afford what ever we want,
    we did not get to where we are today by poofing away money while getting
    here. Some kind of justification is hard wired into us.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Davis@21:1/5 to k...@notreal.com on Fri Jul 22 19:45:14 2022
    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 7:35:38 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:40:48 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 10:06:19 AM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 06:17:17 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:40:56 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%
    2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You
    can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel
    and line extra. Line itself can be $129.
    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band >> >> saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on.
    I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and
    spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I
    currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
    used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have
    the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
    I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
    $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly
    fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
    that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
    doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small >> >> > boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and
    trailers).
    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are
    seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the >> >> other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened >> >> when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
    of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case
    Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell
    station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon.
    That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    If you cost out those big purchases on a per use basis, the Sawstop may be the cheapest tool in your whole shop.
    Huh? That one flew over my head. Cost increase? I guess you haven't
    been looking at tool prices. They haven't doubled but My jointer's
    price increased $700 from the time I bought it in June (they weren't
    shipping yet) to when I received it in October. I think the dust
    collectors went up $1000. All of Laguna's tools have increased like
    that. Jet had a similar, if not larger, increase. Tools haven't gone
    up 100% during the Bidden administration, as gas has.

    OTOH, if you look at lifetime cost, % increase, or any other measure,
    gas has them all beat. Festool had a 5% increase but it's an outlier.
    It wouldn't surprise me if they had a second, larger, increase this
    year.

    I think my point must have been obscure. Its not about % increase or inflation. I've invested in several big purchases like Leon. The sawstop industrial saw was my first really big purchase and I had to think long and hard about it. I use it multiple
    times on every project. I've tripped the brake cartridge 3 times. I have never had to adjust it. In terms of safety and use for my hobby it is off the charts in value to me. I would gladly buy it again, no matter what the price.
    Y\I was thinking about what you wrote and I see where you were going.
    If a SawStop is a huge investment considering the time use, it was
    still twice what my Unisaw cost, or a Harvey or Laguna today.

    Safety is another, unquantifiable, matter. I'm not going $4-5000 on a
    new saw (that is so seldom used ;-) when I have a perfectly
    serviceable saw.

    I did not have such a tough decision. I was not replacing a Unisaw. I was replacing a much lesser Jet hybrid saw.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to wrobertdavis@gmail.com on Sat Jul 23 09:02:03 2022
    On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 19:45:14 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrobertdavis@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 7:35:38 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:40:48 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 10:06:19 AM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 06:17:17 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:40:56 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%
    2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You
    can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel
    and line extra. Line itself can be $129.
    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band >> >> >> saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on.
    I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and
    spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I
    currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
    used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have
    the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
    I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
    $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly
    fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
    that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
    doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small >> >> >> > boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and
    trailers).
    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are
    seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the >> >> >> other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened >> >> >> when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
    of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case
    Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell
    station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon.
    That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    If you cost out those big purchases on a per use basis, the Sawstop may be the cheapest tool in your whole shop.
    Huh? That one flew over my head. Cost increase? I guess you haven't
    been looking at tool prices. They haven't doubled but My jointer's
    price increased $700 from the time I bought it in June (they weren't
    shipping yet) to when I received it in October. I think the dust
    collectors went up $1000. All of Laguna's tools have increased like
    that. Jet had a similar, if not larger, increase. Tools haven't gone
    up 100% during the Bidden administration, as gas has.

    OTOH, if you look at lifetime cost, % increase, or any other measure,
    gas has them all beat. Festool had a 5% increase but it's an outlier.
    It wouldn't surprise me if they had a second, larger, increase this
    year.

    I think my point must have been obscure. Its not about % increase or inflation. I've invested in several big purchases like Leon. The sawstop industrial saw was my first really big purchase and I had to think long and hard about it. I use it multiple
    times on every project. I've tripped the brake cartridge 3 times. I have never had to adjust it. In terms of safety and use for my hobby it is off the charts in value to me. I would gladly buy it again, no matter what the price.
    Y\I was thinking about what you wrote and I see where you were going.
    If a SawStop is a huge investment considering the time use, it was
    still twice what my Unisaw cost, or a Harvey or Laguna today.

    Safety is another, unquantifiable, matter. I'm not going $4-5000 on a
    new saw (that is so seldom used ;-) when I have a perfectly
    serviceable saw.

    I did not have such a tough decision. I was not replacing a Unisaw. I was replacing a much lesser Jet hybrid saw.

    It's still twice the price ($4-5000) of the competition. Powermatic
    is up there too but all of their stuff is stupidly expensive.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Sat Jul 23 08:23:44 2022
    On 7/23/2022 8:02 AM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 19:45:14 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrobertdavis@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 7:35:38 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:40:48 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 10:06:19 AM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >>>>> On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 06:17:17 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:40:56 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You
    can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel >>>>>>>> and line extra. Line itself can be $129.
    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band >>>>>>> saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on. >>>>>>> I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and >>>>>>>> spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I >>>>>>>> currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually >>>>>>>> used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have
    the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
    I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200, >>>>>>>> $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly
    fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
    that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually >>>>>>>> doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small >>>>>>>> boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and
    trailers).
    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are >>>>>>> seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the >>>>>>> other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened >>>>>>> when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
    of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case >>>>>>> Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell >>>>>>> station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon. >>>>>>> That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    If you cost out those big purchases on a per use basis, the Sawstop may be the cheapest tool in your whole shop.
    Huh? That one flew over my head. Cost increase? I guess you haven't
    been looking at tool prices. They haven't doubled but My jointer's
    price increased $700 from the time I bought it in June (they weren't >>>>> shipping yet) to when I received it in October. I think the dust
    collectors went up $1000. All of Laguna's tools have increased like
    that. Jet had a similar, if not larger, increase. Tools haven't gone >>>>> up 100% during the Bidden administration, as gas has.

    OTOH, if you look at lifetime cost, % increase, or any other measure, >>>>> gas has them all beat. Festool had a 5% increase but it's an outlier. >>>>> It wouldn't surprise me if they had a second, larger, increase this
    year.

    I think my point must have been obscure. Its not about % increase or inflation. I've invested in several big purchases like Leon. The sawstop industrial saw was my first really big purchase and I had to think long and hard about it. I use it
    multiple times on every project. I've tripped the brake cartridge 3 times. I have never had to adjust it. In terms of safety and use for my hobby it is off the charts in value to me. I would gladly buy it again, no matter what the price.
    Y\I was thinking about what you wrote and I see where you were going.
    If a SawStop is a huge investment considering the time use, it was
    still twice what my Unisaw cost, or a Harvey or Laguna today.

    Safety is another, unquantifiable, matter. I'm not going $4-5000 on a
    new saw (that is so seldom used ;-) when I have a perfectly
    serviceable saw.

    I did not have such a tough decision. I was not replacing a Unisaw. I was replacing a much lesser Jet hybrid saw.

    It's still twice the price ($4-5000) of the competition. Powermatic
    is up there too but all of their stuff is stupidly expensive.



    BUT if you start with the SS that is most comparable to the Unisaw, the Professional with 50" rip and 3hp motor, that saw starts at $3,675.00
    Was you Unisaw less than $2K?

    I forget what the pricing was back then. IIRC my similar Jet was about
    $1800 ish in 2000.

    Today the "new" Unisaw goes for $5K for 52" but you save $1K for 16"
    inches shorter capacity.... WOW SS charges $100 for the extra length.

    Powermatic with 50" $5525 and $4899 for 36"

    The ICS SS is $4825 with 52" and $4715 for 36"

    SS has pretty much not gone up too much in the past 9 years. Wow I
    have had this saw 9 years. Just over 9 years ago I paid $4509
    including tax for the 52"


    Not trying to sell you just pointing out todays pricing "if" someone was
    in the market.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to Like I on Sat Jul 23 10:03:25 2022
    On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 08:23:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 7/23/2022 8:02 AM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 19:45:14 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrobertdavis@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 7:35:38 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >>>> On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:40:48 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 10:06:19 AM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>> On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 06:17:17 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:40:56 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You
    can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel
    and line extra. Line itself can be $129.
    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band >>>>>>>> saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on. >>>>>>>> I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and
    spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I
    currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
    used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have
    the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
    I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200, >>>>>>>>> $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly
    fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
    that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually >>>>>>>>> doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small >>>>>>>>> boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and
    trailers).
    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are >>>>>>>> seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the >>>>>>>> other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened >>>>>>>> when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
    of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case >>>>>>>> Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell >>>>>>>> station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon. >>>>>>>> That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    If you cost out those big purchases on a per use basis, the Sawstop may be the cheapest tool in your whole shop.
    Huh? That one flew over my head. Cost increase? I guess you haven't >>>>>> been looking at tool prices. They haven't doubled but My jointer's >>>>>> price increased $700 from the time I bought it in June (they weren't >>>>>> shipping yet) to when I received it in October. I think the dust
    collectors went up $1000. All of Laguna's tools have increased like >>>>>> that. Jet had a similar, if not larger, increase. Tools haven't gone >>>>>> up 100% during the Bidden administration, as gas has.

    OTOH, if you look at lifetime cost, % increase, or any other measure, >>>>>> gas has them all beat. Festool had a 5% increase but it's an outlier. >>>>>> It wouldn't surprise me if they had a second, larger, increase this >>>>>> year.

    I think my point must have been obscure. Its not about % increase or inflation. I've invested in several big purchases like Leon. The sawstop industrial saw was my first really big purchase and I had to think long and hard about it. I use it
    multiple times on every project. I've tripped the brake cartridge 3 times. I have never had to adjust it. In terms of safety and use for my hobby it is off the charts in value to me. I would gladly buy it again, no matter what the price.
    Y\I was thinking about what you wrote and I see where you were going.
    If a SawStop is a huge investment considering the time use, it was
    still twice what my Unisaw cost, or a Harvey or Laguna today.

    Safety is another, unquantifiable, matter. I'm not going $4-5000 on a
    new saw (that is so seldom used ;-) when I have a perfectly
    serviceable saw.

    I did not have such a tough decision. I was not replacing a Unisaw. I was replacing a much lesser Jet hybrid saw.

    It's still twice the price ($4-5000) of the competition. Powermatic
    is up there too but all of their stuff is stupidly expensive.



    BUT if you start with the SS that is most comparable to the Unisaw, the >Professional with 50" rip and 3hp motor, that saw starts at $3,675.00
    Was you Unisaw less than $2K?

    $1600 (36-L31X). That was ten years ago but the equivalent SawStop
    was just over $3K at the time. We talked about it here but $3K was a
    bridge too far at the time.

    I forget what the pricing was back then. IIRC my similar Jet was about >$1800 ish in 2000.

    This was probably 2009.

    Today the "new" Unisaw goes for $5K for 52" but you save $1K for 16"
    inches shorter capacity.... WOW SS charges $100 for the extra length.

    It's a piece of melamine, it's it?

    Powermatic with 50" $5525 and $4899 for 36"

    Like I said, Powermatic is stupidly expensive, across the board.

    The ICS SS is $4825 with 52" and $4715 for 36"

    The $5K end of my range.

    SS has pretty much not gone up too much in the past 9 years. Wow I
    have had this saw 9 years. Just over 9 years ago I paid $4509
    including tax for the 52"


    Not trying to sell you just pointing out todays pricing "if" someone was
    in the market.

    Now, price a Laguna or Harvey.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Davis@21:1/5 to k...@notreal.com on Sat Jul 23 11:14:01 2022
    On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 9:03:31 AM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 08:23:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:
    On 7/23/2022 8:02 AM, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 19:45:14 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 7:35:38 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >>>> On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:40:48 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 10:06:19 AM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 06:17:17 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:40:56 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%
    2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You
    can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel
    and line extra. Line itself can be $129.
    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band
    saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on. >>>>>>>> I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and
    spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I
    currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
    used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have
    the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
    I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
    $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly
    fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
    that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
    doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
    boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and
    trailers).
    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are >>>>>>>> seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the
    other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened
    when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
    of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case >>>>>>>> Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell >>>>>>>> station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon. >>>>>>>> That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    If you cost out those big purchases on a per use basis, the Sawstop may be the cheapest tool in your whole shop.
    Huh? That one flew over my head. Cost increase? I guess you haven't >>>>>> been looking at tool prices. They haven't doubled but My jointer's >>>>>> price increased $700 from the time I bought it in June (they weren't >>>>>> shipping yet) to when I received it in October. I think the dust >>>>>> collectors went up $1000. All of Laguna's tools have increased like >>>>>> that. Jet had a similar, if not larger, increase. Tools haven't gone >>>>>> up 100% during the Bidden administration, as gas has.

    OTOH, if you look at lifetime cost, % increase, or any other measure, >>>>>> gas has them all beat. Festool had a 5% increase but it's an outlier. >>>>>> It wouldn't surprise me if they had a second, larger, increase this >>>>>> year.

    I think my point must have been obscure. Its not about % increase or inflation. I've invested in several big purchases like Leon. The sawstop industrial saw was my first really big purchase and I had to think long and hard about it. I use it
    multiple times on every project. I've tripped the brake cartridge 3 times. I have never had to adjust it. In terms of safety and use for my hobby it is off the charts in value to me. I would gladly buy it again, no matter what the price.
    Y\I was thinking about what you wrote and I see where you were going. >>>> If a SawStop is a huge investment considering the time use, it was
    still twice what my Unisaw cost, or a Harvey or Laguna today.

    Safety is another, unquantifiable, matter. I'm not going $4-5000 on a >>>> new saw (that is so seldom used ;-) when I have a perfectly
    serviceable saw.

    I did not have such a tough decision. I was not replacing a Unisaw. I was replacing a much lesser Jet hybrid saw.

    It's still twice the price ($4-5000) of the competition. Powermatic
    is up there too but all of their stuff is stupidly expensive.



    BUT if you start with the SS that is most comparable to the Unisaw, the >Professional with 50" rip and 3hp motor, that saw starts at $3,675.00
    Was you Unisaw less than $2K?
    $1600 (36-L31X). That was ten years ago but the equivalent SawStop
    was just over $3K at the time. We talked about it here but $3K was a
    bridge too far at the time.
    I forget what the pricing was back then. IIRC my similar Jet was about >$1800 ish in 2000.
    This was probably 2009.
    Today the "new" Unisaw goes for $5K for 52" but you save $1K for 16" >inches shorter capacity.... WOW SS charges $100 for the extra length.
    It's a piece of melamine, it's it?
    Powermatic with 50" $5525 and $4899 for 36"
    Like I said, Powermatic is stupidly expensive, across the board.
    The ICS SS is $4825 with 52" and $4715 for 36"
    The $5K end of my range.

    SS has pretty much not gone up too much in the past 9 years. Wow I
    have had this saw 9 years. Just over 9 years ago I paid $4509
    including tax for the 52"


    Not trying to sell you just pointing out todays pricing "if" someone was >in the market.
    Now, price a Laguna or Harvey.

    I was getting tired of this discussion but I have to respond. I keep seeing generalized comparisons between apple and oranges and pears. None of the saws mentioned compares to a Sawstop Industrial cabinet saw (ICS). It is bigger and heavier (aka
    massive 685lb). Here is what I consider apples to apples priced today (July 23, 2022)

    All saws are 52", 3 hp

    Delta unisaw $5043.20
    Sawstop PCS $4857.00
    Laguna $2999.00
    Harvey $2499.00 (I really consider this an unknown brand)

    Bob

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to wrober...@gmail.com on Sat Jul 23 12:31:50 2022
    On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 2:14:04 PM UTC-4, wrober...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 9:03:31 AM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 08:23:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:
    On 7/23/2022 8:02 AM, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 19:45:14 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 7:35:38 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:40:48 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 10:06:19 AM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 06:17:17 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:40:56 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote: >>>>>>>> On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%
    2CN8AU%2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You
    can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel
    and line extra. Line itself can be $129.
    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band
    saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on. >>>>>>>> I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and
    spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I
    currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
    used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have
    the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
    I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
    $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly
    fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
    that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
    doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
    boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and
    trailers).
    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are >>>>>>>> seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the
    other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened
    when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
    of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case
    Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell >>>>>>>> station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon.
    That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    If you cost out those big purchases on a per use basis, the Sawstop may be the cheapest tool in your whole shop.
    Huh? That one flew over my head. Cost increase? I guess you haven't >>>>>> been looking at tool prices. They haven't doubled but My jointer's >>>>>> price increased $700 from the time I bought it in June (they weren't
    shipping yet) to when I received it in October. I think the dust >>>>>> collectors went up $1000. All of Laguna's tools have increased like >>>>>> that. Jet had a similar, if not larger, increase. Tools haven't gone
    up 100% during the Bidden administration, as gas has.

    OTOH, if you look at lifetime cost, % increase, or any other measure,
    gas has them all beat. Festool had a 5% increase but it's an outlier.
    It wouldn't surprise me if they had a second, larger, increase this >>>>>> year.

    I think my point must have been obscure. Its not about % increase or inflation. I've invested in several big purchases like Leon. The sawstop industrial saw was my first really big purchase and I had to think long and hard about it. I use it
    multiple times on every project. I've tripped the brake cartridge 3 times. I have never had to adjust it. In terms of safety and use for my hobby it is off the charts in value to me. I would gladly buy it again, no matter what the price.
    Y\I was thinking about what you wrote and I see where you were going. >>>> If a SawStop is a huge investment considering the time use, it was >>>> still twice what my Unisaw cost, or a Harvey or Laguna today.

    Safety is another, unquantifiable, matter. I'm not going $4-5000 on a >>>> new saw (that is so seldom used ;-) when I have a perfectly
    serviceable saw.

    I did not have such a tough decision. I was not replacing a Unisaw. I was replacing a much lesser Jet hybrid saw.

    It's still twice the price ($4-5000) of the competition. Powermatic
    is up there too but all of their stuff is stupidly expensive.



    BUT if you start with the SS that is most comparable to the Unisaw, the >Professional with 50" rip and 3hp motor, that saw starts at $3,675.00 >Was you Unisaw less than $2K?
    $1600 (36-L31X). That was ten years ago but the equivalent SawStop
    was just over $3K at the time. We talked about it here but $3K was a bridge too far at the time.
    I forget what the pricing was back then. IIRC my similar Jet was about >$1800 ish in 2000.
    This was probably 2009.
    Today the "new" Unisaw goes for $5K for 52" but you save $1K for 16" >inches shorter capacity.... WOW SS charges $100 for the extra length. It's a piece of melamine, it's it?
    Powermatic with 50" $5525 and $4899 for 36"
    Like I said, Powermatic is stupidly expensive, across the board.
    The ICS SS is $4825 with 52" and $4715 for 36"
    The $5K end of my range.

    SS has pretty much not gone up too much in the past 9 years. Wow I
    have had this saw 9 years. Just over 9 years ago I paid $4509
    including tax for the 52"


    Not trying to sell you just pointing out todays pricing "if" someone was >in the market.
    Now, price a Laguna or Harvey.
    I was getting tired of this discussion but I have to respond. I keep seeing generalized comparisons between apple and oranges and pears. None of the saws mentioned compares to a Sawstop Industrial cabinet saw (ICS). It is bigger and heavier (aka
    massive 685lb). Here is what I consider apples to apples priced today (July 23, 2022)

    All saws are 52", 3 hp

    Delta unisaw $5043.20
    Sawstop PCS $4857.00
    Laguna $2999.00
    Harvey $2499.00 (I really consider this an unknown brand)

    Bob

    Apparently they are "new" to the North American market, at least as being
    a known name. I haven't dug into for whom they acted as an "OEM supplier".

    https://www.harveywoodworking.com/pages/about-us-1

    "Harvey Industries, established in 1999, was formed on the principles of uniquely designed products and constant improvements in quality.
    Based on these principals, Harvey Industries has succeeded in supplying woodworking machinery and accessories to over 100 countries. The
    Harvey brand is known in woodworking markets everywhere except
    North America where we have, until recently, operated as an OEM
    supplier to many of the well known US machinery brands.

    Our products span the market from general purpose saws, shapers
    and lathes up through digitally controlled sliding table saws and spindle moulders. Our 200 employees throughout the world strive to bring you t
    he best and most innovative pieces of machinery without compromise."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to wrobertdavis@gmail.com on Sat Jul 23 21:59:42 2022
    On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 11:14:01 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrobertdavis@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 9:03:31 AM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 08:23:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:
    On 7/23/2022 8:02 AM, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 19:45:14 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 7:35:38 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >> >>>> On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:40:48 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 10:06:19 AM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 06:17:17 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:40:56 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%
    2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You
    can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel
    and line extra. Line itself can be $129.
    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band
    saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on. >> >>>>>>>> I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and
    spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I
    currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
    used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have
    the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
    I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
    $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly
    fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
    that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
    doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
    boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and
    trailers).
    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are >> >>>>>>>> seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the
    other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened
    when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
    of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case >> >>>>>>>> Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell
    station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon. >> >>>>>>>> That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    If you cost out those big purchases on a per use basis, the Sawstop may be the cheapest tool in your whole shop.
    Huh? That one flew over my head. Cost increase? I guess you haven't >> >>>>>> been looking at tool prices. They haven't doubled but My jointer's
    price increased $700 from the time I bought it in June (they weren't >> >>>>>> shipping yet) to when I received it in October. I think the dust
    collectors went up $1000. All of Laguna's tools have increased like >> >>>>>> that. Jet had a similar, if not larger, increase. Tools haven't gone >> >>>>>> up 100% during the Bidden administration, as gas has.

    OTOH, if you look at lifetime cost, % increase, or any other measure, >> >>>>>> gas has them all beat. Festool had a 5% increase but it's an outlier. >> >>>>>> It wouldn't surprise me if they had a second, larger, increase this >> >>>>>> year.

    I think my point must have been obscure. Its not about % increase or inflation. I've invested in several big purchases like Leon. The sawstop industrial saw was my first really big purchase and I had to think long and hard about it. I use it
    multiple times on every project. I've tripped the brake cartridge 3 times. I have never had to adjust it. In terms of safety and use for my hobby it is off the charts in value to me. I would gladly buy it again, no matter what the price.
    Y\I was thinking about what you wrote and I see where you were going. >> >>>> If a SawStop is a huge investment considering the time use, it was
    still twice what my Unisaw cost, or a Harvey or Laguna today.

    Safety is another, unquantifiable, matter. I'm not going $4-5000 on a >> >>>> new saw (that is so seldom used ;-) when I have a perfectly
    serviceable saw.

    I did not have such a tough decision. I was not replacing a Unisaw. I was replacing a much lesser Jet hybrid saw.

    It's still twice the price ($4-5000) of the competition. Powermatic
    is up there too but all of their stuff is stupidly expensive.



    BUT if you start with the SS that is most comparable to the Unisaw, the
    Professional with 50" rip and 3hp motor, that saw starts at $3,675.00
    Was you Unisaw less than $2K?
    $1600 (36-L31X). That was ten years ago but the equivalent SawStop
    was just over $3K at the time. We talked about it here but $3K was a
    bridge too far at the time.
    I forget what the pricing was back then. IIRC my similar Jet was about
    $1800 ish in 2000.
    This was probably 2009.
    Today the "new" Unisaw goes for $5K for 52" but you save $1K for 16"
    inches shorter capacity.... WOW SS charges $100 for the extra length.
    It's a piece of melamine, it's it?
    Powermatic with 50" $5525 and $4899 for 36"
    Like I said, Powermatic is stupidly expensive, across the board.
    The ICS SS is $4825 with 52" and $4715 for 36"
    The $5K end of my range.

    SS has pretty much not gone up too much in the past 9 years. Wow I
    have had this saw 9 years. Just over 9 years ago I paid $4509
    including tax for the 52"


    Not trying to sell you just pointing out todays pricing "if" someone was
    in the market.
    Now, price a Laguna or Harvey.

    I was getting tired of this discussion but I have to respond. I keep seeing generalized comparisons between apple and oranges and pears. None of the saws mentioned compares to a Sawstop Industrial cabinet saw (ICS). It is bigger and heavier (aka
    massive 685lb). Here is what I consider apples to apples priced today (July 23, 2022)

    OK, now we're talking about the $5,000 end of my range, above.

    All saws are 52", 3 hp

    Delta unisaw $5043.20
    Sawstop PCS $4857.00
    Laguna $2999.00
    Harvey $2499.00 (I really consider this an unknown brand)

    From all reports, the Harvey is very good.

    Again, we're talking 2X. The new Unisaw, like the Powermatic, is
    stupid expensive. I wouldn't buy anything made by Delta anymore and
    PowerMatic thinks too much of itself, across all product lines.

    If I had to choose between the three (SawStop, Unisaw, or PowerMatic),
    the SawStop would be the obvious choice. Otherwise, likely the
    Laguna. I have a bit of experience with Laguna and I'm happy with
    their quality. Meanwhile I _have_ the older model Unisaw and that was
    half the price of the SawStop at the time.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Sun Jul 24 10:00:47 2022
    On 7/23/2022 9:03 AM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 08:23:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 7/23/2022 8:02 AM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 19:45:14 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrobertdavis@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 7:35:38 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >>>>> On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:40:48 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 10:06:19 AM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 06:17:17 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:40:56 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%
    2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You
    can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel
    and line extra. Line itself can be $129.
    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band
    saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on. >>>>>>>>> I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and
    spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I
    currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
    used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have
    the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
    I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
    $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly
    fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
    that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
    doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small >>>>>>>>>> boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and
    trailers).
    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are >>>>>>>>> seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the >>>>>>>>> other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened >>>>>>>>> when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
    of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case >>>>>>>>> Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell >>>>>>>>> station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon. >>>>>>>>> That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    If you cost out those big purchases on a per use basis, the Sawstop may be the cheapest tool in your whole shop.
    Huh? That one flew over my head. Cost increase? I guess you haven't >>>>>>> been looking at tool prices. They haven't doubled but My jointer's >>>>>>> price increased $700 from the time I bought it in June (they weren't >>>>>>> shipping yet) to when I received it in October. I think the dust >>>>>>> collectors went up $1000. All of Laguna's tools have increased like >>>>>>> that. Jet had a similar, if not larger, increase. Tools haven't gone >>>>>>> up 100% during the Bidden administration, as gas has.

    OTOH, if you look at lifetime cost, % increase, or any other measure, >>>>>>> gas has them all beat. Festool had a 5% increase but it's an outlier. >>>>>>> It wouldn't surprise me if they had a second, larger, increase this >>>>>>> year.

    I think my point must have been obscure. Its not about % increase or inflation. I've invested in several big purchases like Leon. The sawstop industrial saw was my first really big purchase and I had to think long and hard about it. I use it
    multiple times on every project. I've tripped the brake cartridge 3 times. I have never had to adjust it. In terms of safety and use for my hobby it is off the charts in value to me. I would gladly buy it again, no matter what the price.
    Y\I was thinking about what you wrote and I see where you were going. >>>>> If a SawStop is a huge investment considering the time use, it was
    still twice what my Unisaw cost, or a Harvey or Laguna today.

    Safety is another, unquantifiable, matter. I'm not going $4-5000 on a >>>>> new saw (that is so seldom used ;-) when I have a perfectly
    serviceable saw.

    I did not have such a tough decision. I was not replacing a Unisaw. I was replacing a much lesser Jet hybrid saw.

    It's still twice the price ($4-5000) of the competition. Powermatic
    is up there too but all of their stuff is stupidly expensive.



    BUT if you start with the SS that is most comparable to the Unisaw, the
    Professional with 50" rip and 3hp motor, that saw starts at $3,675.00
    Was you Unisaw less than $2K?

    $1600 (36-L31X). That was ten years ago but the equivalent SawStop
    was just over $3K at the time. We talked about it here but $3K was a
    bridge too far at the time.


    Understood and timing is everything.

    I forget what the pricing was back then. IIRC my similar Jet was about
    $1800 ish in 2000.

    This was probably 2009.

    Today the "new" Unisaw goes for $5K for 52" but you save $1K for 16"
    inches shorter capacity.... WOW SS charges $100 for the extra length.

    It's a piece of melamine, it's it?

    Pretty much and about 30" front and back for the rails plus 16" more
    tape measure. ;~)

    Another case of what the market will bare. It only costs us $25 more
    for those 16" but our customer wants 50" and we can bump the price up to
    the competition price and make an extra $600~700.

    Hind site, if only we has bought into SS's offer to license the
    technology we might still be relevant today. The last time I recall
    seeing a Unisaw on a show room floor was when I was shopping form my SS,
    9 years ago.





    Powermatic with 50" $5525 and $4899 for 36"

    Like I said, Powermatic is stupidly expensive, across the board.

    I think because it was the GOLD standard for being the ultimate USA made machine it still has the draw. And maybe with the backing of the
    company that owns Jet and Wilton.



    The ICS SS is $4825 with 52" and $4715 for 36"

    The $5K end of my range.

    SS has pretty much not gone up too much in the past 9 years. Wow I
    have had this saw 9 years. Just over 9 years ago I paid $4509
    including tax for the 52"


    Not trying to sell you just pointing out todays pricing "if" someone was
    in the market.

    Now, price a Laguna or Harvey.

    Well price a Laguna that is not built in Taiwan, in other words look at
    the Laguna TS that does not look like an American copy cat.

    The European built Laguna was a bit more expensive than the SS 9 years
    ago. They had and continue to have the Fusion series, made in Taiwan.
    Not that that is a bad thing.

    The one I was looking at was European and I was specifically looking at
    having a scoring blade added to the saw. When I talked With Laguna the
    sales guy indicated that if I wanted an up grade from the Jet Exacta
    cabinet saw that I should avoid the Fusion line of saws. I think he
    was indicatio9n that it would be a lateral move. And it being an
    American style saw it would not have any more features, like a scoring
    blade, than my Jet except maybe the riving knife.

    And ultimately my Jet was fine and I did not need to upgrade. My whole
    point to get another saw was from a safety stand point so I decided SS
    or keep the Jet. SS too advised me that if I wanted an upgrade over
    the Jet to go the ICS series, the original, over the Professional series.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to Bob Davis on Sun Jul 24 10:15:05 2022
    On 7/23/2022 1:14 PM, Bob Davis wrote:
    On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 9:03:31 AM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 08:23:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:
    On 7/23/2022 8:02 AM, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 19:45:14 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 7:35:38 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>> On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:40:48 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 10:06:19 AM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 06:17:17 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:40:56 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%
    2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You
    can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel
    and line extra. Line itself can be $129.
    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band
    saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on. >>>>>>>>>> I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and
    spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I
    currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
    used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have
    the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
    I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
    $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly
    fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
    that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
    doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
    boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and
    trailers).
    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are >>>>>>>>>> seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the >>>>>>>>>> other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened
    when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
    of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case >>>>>>>>>> Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell >>>>>>>>>> station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon. >>>>>>>>>> That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    If you cost out those big purchases on a per use basis, the Sawstop may be the cheapest tool in your whole shop.
    Huh? That one flew over my head. Cost increase? I guess you haven't >>>>>>>> been looking at tool prices. They haven't doubled but My jointer's >>>>>>>> price increased $700 from the time I bought it in June (they weren't >>>>>>>> shipping yet) to when I received it in October. I think the dust >>>>>>>> collectors went up $1000. All of Laguna's tools have increased like >>>>>>>> that. Jet had a similar, if not larger, increase. Tools haven't gone >>>>>>>> up 100% during the Bidden administration, as gas has.

    OTOH, if you look at lifetime cost, % increase, or any other measure, >>>>>>>> gas has them all beat. Festool had a 5% increase but it's an outlier. >>>>>>>> It wouldn't surprise me if they had a second, larger, increase this >>>>>>>> year.

    I think my point must have been obscure. Its not about % increase or inflation. I've invested in several big purchases like Leon. The sawstop industrial saw was my first really big purchase and I had to think long and hard about it. I use it
    multiple times on every project. I've tripped the brake cartridge 3 times. I have never had to adjust it. In terms of safety and use for my hobby it is off the charts in value to me. I would gladly buy it again, no matter what the price.
    Y\I was thinking about what you wrote and I see where you were going. >>>>>> If a SawStop is a huge investment considering the time use, it was >>>>>> still twice what my Unisaw cost, or a Harvey or Laguna today.

    Safety is another, unquantifiable, matter. I'm not going $4-5000 on a >>>>>> new saw (that is so seldom used ;-) when I have a perfectly
    serviceable saw.

    I did not have such a tough decision. I was not replacing a Unisaw. I was replacing a much lesser Jet hybrid saw.

    It's still twice the price ($4-5000) of the competition. Powermatic
    is up there too but all of their stuff is stupidly expensive.



    BUT if you start with the SS that is most comparable to the Unisaw, the
    Professional with 50" rip and 3hp motor, that saw starts at $3,675.00
    Was you Unisaw less than $2K?
    $1600 (36-L31X). That was ten years ago but the equivalent SawStop
    was just over $3K at the time. We talked about it here but $3K was a
    bridge too far at the time.
    I forget what the pricing was back then. IIRC my similar Jet was about
    $1800 ish in 2000.
    This was probably 2009.
    Today the "new" Unisaw goes for $5K for 52" but you save $1K for 16"
    inches shorter capacity.... WOW SS charges $100 for the extra length.
    It's a piece of melamine, it's it?
    Powermatic with 50" $5525 and $4899 for 36"
    Like I said, Powermatic is stupidly expensive, across the board.
    The ICS SS is $4825 with 52" and $4715 for 36"
    The $5K end of my range.

    SS has pretty much not gone up too much in the past 9 years. Wow I
    have had this saw 9 years. Just over 9 years ago I paid $4509
    including tax for the 52"


    Not trying to sell you just pointing out todays pricing "if" someone was >>> in the market.
    Now, price a Laguna or Harvey.

    I was getting tired of this discussion but I have to respond. I keep seeing generalized comparisons between apple and oranges and pears. None of the saws mentioned compares to a Sawstop Industrial cabinet saw (ICS). It is bigger and heavier (aka
    massive 685lb). Here is what I consider apples to apples priced today (July 23, 2022)

    All saws are 52", 3 hp

    Delta unisaw $5043.20
    Sawstop PCS $4857.00
    Laguna $2999.00
    Harvey $2499.00 (I really consider this an unknown brand)

    Bob


    IMHO Delta should have bought into the license agreement to have the SS technology instead of the cost to develop the new Unisaw that never had
    a chance. Unfortunately today's Delta seems to be competitive with Ryobi.

    Harvey was a maker of parts for machines IIRC. They decided to get
    into marketing their parts into their own brand. I think the Harvey is probably a solid saw but I think that there need to be some tweaks for
    it to move to one of those brands at the head of the class. Their
    included miter gauge is a beauty but has issues, pointed out by the WoodWhisperer. His findings are the same as mine when I was shopping
    for a replacement miter gauge. My Kreg had and continues to have the
    same issues and so does the Osbourn triangle miter gauge. Osbourne
    miter gauges sell for almost half of what they were going for 8~9 years
    ago.,

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 24 10:16:50 2022
    On 7/23/2022 2:31 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 2:14:04 PM UTC-4, wrober...@gmail.com wrote:
    On Saturday, July 23, 2022 at 9:03:31 AM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 08:23:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:
    On 7/23/2022 8:02 AM, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 19:45:14 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 7:35:38 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:40:48 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 10:06:19 AM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 06:17:17 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:40:56 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%
    2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You
    can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel
    and line extra. Line itself can be $129.
    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band
    saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on. >>>>>>>>>>> I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and
    spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I
    currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
    used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have
    the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
    I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
    $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly
    fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
    that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
    doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
    boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and
    trailers).
    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are >>>>>>>>>>> seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the
    other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened
    when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
    of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case >>>>>>>>>>> Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell >>>>>>>>>>> station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon. >>>>>>>>>>> That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    If you cost out those big purchases on a per use basis, the Sawstop may be the cheapest tool in your whole shop.
    Huh? That one flew over my head. Cost increase? I guess you haven't >>>>>>>>> been looking at tool prices. They haven't doubled but My jointer's >>>>>>>>> price increased $700 from the time I bought it in June (they weren't >>>>>>>>> shipping yet) to when I received it in October. I think the dust >>>>>>>>> collectors went up $1000. All of Laguna's tools have increased like >>>>>>>>> that. Jet had a similar, if not larger, increase. Tools haven't gone >>>>>>>>> up 100% during the Bidden administration, as gas has.

    OTOH, if you look at lifetime cost, % increase, or any other measure, >>>>>>>>> gas has them all beat. Festool had a 5% increase but it's an outlier. >>>>>>>>> It wouldn't surprise me if they had a second, larger, increase this >>>>>>>>> year.

    I think my point must have been obscure. Its not about % increase or inflation. I've invested in several big purchases like Leon. The sawstop industrial saw was my first really big purchase and I had to think long and hard about it. I use it
    multiple times on every project. I've tripped the brake cartridge 3 times. I have never had to adjust it. In terms of safety and use for my hobby it is off the charts in value to me. I would gladly buy it again, no matter what the price.
    Y\I was thinking about what you wrote and I see where you were going. >>>>>>> If a SawStop is a huge investment considering the time use, it was >>>>>>> still twice what my Unisaw cost, or a Harvey or Laguna today.

    Safety is another, unquantifiable, matter. I'm not going $4-5000 on a >>>>>>> new saw (that is so seldom used ;-) when I have a perfectly
    serviceable saw.

    I did not have such a tough decision. I was not replacing a Unisaw. I was replacing a much lesser Jet hybrid saw.

    It's still twice the price ($4-5000) of the competition. Powermatic
    is up there too but all of their stuff is stupidly expensive.



    BUT if you start with the SS that is most comparable to the Unisaw, the >>>> Professional with 50" rip and 3hp motor, that saw starts at $3,675.00
    Was you Unisaw less than $2K?
    $1600 (36-L31X). That was ten years ago but the equivalent SawStop
    was just over $3K at the time. We talked about it here but $3K was a
    bridge too far at the time.
    I forget what the pricing was back then. IIRC my similar Jet was about >>>> $1800 ish in 2000.
    This was probably 2009.
    Today the "new" Unisaw goes for $5K for 52" but you save $1K for 16"
    inches shorter capacity.... WOW SS charges $100 for the extra length.
    It's a piece of melamine, it's it?
    Powermatic with 50" $5525 and $4899 for 36"
    Like I said, Powermatic is stupidly expensive, across the board.
    The ICS SS is $4825 with 52" and $4715 for 36"
    The $5K end of my range.

    SS has pretty much not gone up too much in the past 9 years. Wow I
    have had this saw 9 years. Just over 9 years ago I paid $4509
    including tax for the 52"


    Not trying to sell you just pointing out todays pricing "if" someone was >>>> in the market.
    Now, price a Laguna or Harvey.
    I was getting tired of this discussion but I have to respond. I keep seeing generalized comparisons between apple and oranges and pears. None of the saws mentioned compares to a Sawstop Industrial cabinet saw (ICS). It is bigger and heavier (aka
    massive 685lb). Here is what I consider apples to apples priced today (July 23, 2022)

    All saws are 52", 3 hp

    Delta unisaw $5043.20
    Sawstop PCS $4857.00
    Laguna $2999.00
    Harvey $2499.00 (I really consider this an unknown brand)

    Bob

    Apparently they are "new" to the North American market, at least as being
    a known name. I haven't dug into for whom they acted as an "OEM supplier".

    https://www.harveywoodworking.com/pages/about-us-1

    "Harvey Industries, established in 1999, was formed on the principles of uniquely designed products and constant improvements in quality.
    Based on these principals, Harvey Industries has succeeded in supplying woodworking machinery and accessories to over 100 countries. The
    Harvey brand is known in woodworking markets everywhere except
    North America where we have, until recently, operated as an OEM
    supplier to many of the well known US machinery brands.

    Our products span the market from general purpose saws, shapers
    and lathes up through digitally controlled sliding table saws and spindle moulders. Our 200 employees throughout the world strive to bring you t
    he best and most innovative pieces of machinery without compromise."



    Harvey also acquired Bridge City Tools a few years back.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 24 16:16:05 2022
    On Sun, 24 Jul 2022 10:00:47 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 7/23/2022 9:03 AM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 08:23:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 7/23/2022 8:02 AM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 19:45:14 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrobertdavis@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 7:35:38 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>> On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:40:48 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 10:06:19 AM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 06:17:17 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:40:56 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%
    2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You
    can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel
    and line extra. Line itself can be $129.
    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band
    saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on. >>>>>>>>>> I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and
    spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I
    currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
    used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have
    the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
    I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
    $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly
    fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
    that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
    doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
    boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and
    trailers).
    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are >>>>>>>>>> seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the >>>>>>>>>> other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened
    when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
    of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case >>>>>>>>>> Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell >>>>>>>>>> station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon. >>>>>>>>>> That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    If you cost out those big purchases on a per use basis, the Sawstop may be the cheapest tool in your whole shop.
    Huh? That one flew over my head. Cost increase? I guess you haven't >>>>>>>> been looking at tool prices. They haven't doubled but My jointer's >>>>>>>> price increased $700 from the time I bought it in June (they weren't >>>>>>>> shipping yet) to when I received it in October. I think the dust >>>>>>>> collectors went up $1000. All of Laguna's tools have increased like >>>>>>>> that. Jet had a similar, if not larger, increase. Tools haven't gone >>>>>>>> up 100% during the Bidden administration, as gas has.

    OTOH, if you look at lifetime cost, % increase, or any other measure, >>>>>>>> gas has them all beat. Festool had a 5% increase but it's an outlier. >>>>>>>> It wouldn't surprise me if they had a second, larger, increase this >>>>>>>> year.

    I think my point must have been obscure. Its not about % increase or inflation. I've invested in several big purchases like Leon. The sawstop industrial saw was my first really big purchase and I had to think long and hard about it. I use it
    multiple times on every project. I've tripped the brake cartridge 3 times. I have never had to adjust it. In terms of safety and use for my hobby it is off the charts in value to me. I would gladly buy it again, no matter what the price.
    Y\I was thinking about what you wrote and I see where you were going. >>>>>> If a SawStop is a huge investment considering the time use, it was >>>>>> still twice what my Unisaw cost, or a Harvey or Laguna today.

    Safety is another, unquantifiable, matter. I'm not going $4-5000 on a >>>>>> new saw (that is so seldom used ;-) when I have a perfectly
    serviceable saw.

    I did not have such a tough decision. I was not replacing a Unisaw. I was replacing a much lesser Jet hybrid saw.

    It's still twice the price ($4-5000) of the competition. Powermatic
    is up there too but all of their stuff is stupidly expensive.



    BUT if you start with the SS that is most comparable to the Unisaw, the
    Professional with 50" rip and 3hp motor, that saw starts at $3,675.00
    Was you Unisaw less than $2K?

    $1600 (36-L31X). That was ten years ago but the equivalent SawStop
    was just over $3K at the time. We talked about it here but $3K was a
    bridge too far at the time.


    Understood and timing is everything.

    I forget what the pricing was back then. IIRC my similar Jet was about >>> $1800 ish in 2000.

    This was probably 2009.

    Today the "new" Unisaw goes for $5K for 52" but you save $1K for 16"
    inches shorter capacity.... WOW SS charges $100 for the extra length.

    It's a piece of melamine, it's it?

    Pretty much and about 30" front and back for the rails plus 16" more
    tape measure. ;~)

    Another case of what the market will bare. It only costs us $25 more
    for those 16" but our customer wants 50" and we can bump the price up to
    the competition price and make an extra $600~700.

    Everyone else does the same. Probably more so. The other like issue
    is the motor. A 3HP motor doesn't cost all that much more than a
    1-1/2HP motor.

    Hind site, if only we has bought into SS's offer to license the
    technology we might still be relevant today. The last time I recall
    seeing a Unisaw on a show room floor was when I was shopping form my SS,
    9 years ago.

    I don't think so. Delta screwed up the company all on their own. I
    have a Delta DP (18-900L) that's becoming hard to get parts for too. Fortunately the parts I've needed are pretty standard.

    Powermatic with 50" $5525 and $4899 for 36"

    Like I said, Powermatic is stupidly expensive, across the board.

    I think because it was the GOLD standard for being the ultimate USA made >machine it still has the draw. And maybe with the backing of the
    company that owns Jet and Wilton.

    No wonder they're so ugly. I don't mind Taiwanese tools. China is
    much more iffy. I wouldn't buy Chinese stationary tools, as long as
    there was another option.


    The ICS SS is $4825 with 52" and $4715 for 36"

    The $5K end of my range.

    SS has pretty much not gone up too much in the past 9 years. Wow I
    have had this saw 9 years. Just over 9 years ago I paid $4509
    including tax for the 52"


    Not trying to sell you just pointing out todays pricing "if" someone was >>> in the market.

    Now, price a Laguna or Harvey.

    Well price a Laguna that is not built in Taiwan, in other words look at
    the Laguna TS that does not look like an American copy cat.

    Again, nothing wrong with Taiwan. BTW, Laguna is a US company. It's
    all imported from wherever and the Laguna name is stamped on it.

    The European built Laguna was a bit more expensive than the SS 9 years
    ago. They had and continue to have the Fusion series, made in Taiwan.
    Not that that is a bad thing.

    Exactly. If you want to pay double for Italian, or US for that matter,
    made tools, go for it.

    The one I was looking at was European and I was specifically looking at >having a scoring blade added to the saw. When I talked With Laguna the >sales guy indicated that if I wanted an up grade from the Jet Exacta
    cabinet saw that I should avoid the Fusion line of saws. I think he
    was indicatio9n that it would be a lateral move. And it being an
    American style saw it would not have any more features, like a scoring
    blade, than my Jet except maybe the riving knife.

    I understand that the new F3 is a very nice saw. I don't know all of
    the details because I'm not in the market for a saw.

    And ultimately my Jet was fine and I did not need to upgrade. My whole
    point to get another saw was from a safety stand point so I decided SS
    or keep the Jet. SS too advised me that if I wanted an upgrade over
    the Jet to go the ICS series, the original, over the Professional series.

    I tend to agree. The "Professional" doesn't look all that impressive,
    as a saw (ignoring the safety feature). The Jobsite saw is incredibly
    expensive for what it is. OK, a contractor needs insurance and all
    that but still...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Sun Jul 24 18:09:13 2022
    On 7/24/2022 3:16 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sun, 24 Jul 2022 10:00:47 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 7/23/2022 9:03 AM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 23 Jul 2022 08:23:44 -0500, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 7/23/2022 8:02 AM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Fri, 22 Jul 2022 19:45:14 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrobertdavis@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 7:35:38 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >>>>>>> On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 08:40:48 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Thursday, July 21, 2022 at 10:06:19 AM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Thu, 21 Jul 2022 06:17:17 -0700 (PDT), Bob Davis
    <wrober...@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Tuesday, July 19, 2022 at 3:40:56 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 7/18/2022 10:35 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 7/18/2022 11:00 AM, Leon wrote:

    Jumping on the Festool Domino gravy train.

    $299.00


    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/power-tool-accessories/114883-veritas-domino-joinery-table?item=05J1701&utm_campaign=222844_JULY18-wood-VeritasDominoTable-US&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Lee+Valley&dm_i=6EER%2C4RY4%2C12QOS9%2CN8AU%
    2C1




    And for 2.3 times more money,

    https://www.woodpeck.com/mortisematch.html

    Be glad you're not into "fly fishing" (actually I am and I like it). You
    can spend upwards of $1500 or more for a fly rod ("fishing rod"). Reel
    and line extra. Line itself can be $129.
    You mean like $4500 on Festools, $5000 on a ICS SawStop TS, $4000 band
    saw, $2500 Shaper Origin. $5600 Jointer/Planer, the list goes on. >>>>>>>>>>> I think they figured that
    you're going to spend hundreds if not thousands on your vacations, and
    spending a little more on your gear will mostly go unnoticed to you. I
    currently use gear made in the 1970's (Fenwick brand rods). I actually
    used to sell that stuff back then as a salesperson, but didn't then have
    the budget for it. In recent years I upgraded my gear to that via ebay.
    I think I did pay maybe $160 for one of my rods, but not $800, $1200,
    $1500.... I think I could get a person interested in learning about fly
    fishing ready to go for under $100, but the novice will never encounter
    that point of view at a fly shop. Incidentally, the "virus" virtually
    doubled the price of vintage gear on ebay, and made affordable small
    boat and trailers scarce as hens teeth (suppy shortage for the boats and
    trailers).
    In a lot of cases it is not a just supply vs demand issue. We are >>>>>>>>>>> seeing a lot of that because of supply chain issues. Gasoline on the
    other hand falls under 2 categories, supply and demand, what happened
    when Biden took office and suddenly the US is no longer a net + producer
    of oil, and then there is "what the market will bear". In this case >>>>>>>>>>> Shell gasoline near me is $3.89 per gallon. 3 miles away a Shell >>>>>>>>>>> station is at $4.29 per gallon. And 8 miles away $3.69 per gallon. >>>>>>>>>>> That is not a supply problem so much as what the local market will bear.

    If you cost out those big purchases on a per use basis, the Sawstop may be the cheapest tool in your whole shop.
    Huh? That one flew over my head. Cost increase? I guess you haven't >>>>>>>>> been looking at tool prices. They haven't doubled but My jointer's >>>>>>>>> price increased $700 from the time I bought it in June (they weren't >>>>>>>>> shipping yet) to when I received it in October. I think the dust >>>>>>>>> collectors went up $1000. All of Laguna's tools have increased like >>>>>>>>> that. Jet had a similar, if not larger, increase. Tools haven't gone >>>>>>>>> up 100% during the Bidden administration, as gas has.

    OTOH, if you look at lifetime cost, % increase, or any other measure, >>>>>>>>> gas has them all beat. Festool had a 5% increase but it's an outlier. >>>>>>>>> It wouldn't surprise me if they had a second, larger, increase this >>>>>>>>> year.

    I think my point must have been obscure. Its not about % increase or inflation. I've invested in several big purchases like Leon. The sawstop industrial saw was my first really big purchase and I had to think long and hard about it. I use it
    multiple times on every project. I've tripped the brake cartridge 3 times. I have never had to adjust it. In terms of safety and use for my hobby it is off the charts in value to me. I would gladly buy it again, no matter what the price.
    Y\I was thinking about what you wrote and I see where you were going. >>>>>>> If a SawStop is a huge investment considering the time use, it was >>>>>>> still twice what my Unisaw cost, or a Harvey or Laguna today.

    Safety is another, unquantifiable, matter. I'm not going $4-5000 on a >>>>>>> new saw (that is so seldom used ;-) when I have a perfectly
    serviceable saw.

    I did not have such a tough decision. I was not replacing a Unisaw. I was replacing a much lesser Jet hybrid saw.

    It's still twice the price ($4-5000) of the competition. Powermatic >>>>> is up there too but all of their stuff is stupidly expensive.



    BUT if you start with the SS that is most comparable to the Unisaw, the >>>> Professional with 50" rip and 3hp motor, that saw starts at $3,675.00
    Was you Unisaw less than $2K?

    $1600 (36-L31X). That was ten years ago but the equivalent SawStop
    was just over $3K at the time. We talked about it here but $3K was a
    bridge too far at the time.


    Understood and timing is everything.

    I forget what the pricing was back then. IIRC my similar Jet was about >>>> $1800 ish in 2000.

    This was probably 2009.

    Today the "new" Unisaw goes for $5K for 52" but you save $1K for 16"
    inches shorter capacity.... WOW SS charges $100 for the extra length. >>>
    It's a piece of melamine, it's it?

    Pretty much and about 30" front and back for the rails plus 16" more
    tape measure. ;~)

    Another case of what the market will bare. It only costs us $25 more
    for those 16" but our customer wants 50" and we can bump the price up to
    the competition price and make an extra $600~700.

    Everyone else does the same. Probably more so. The other like issue
    is the motor. A 3HP motor doesn't cost all that much more than a
    1-1/2HP motor.

    Hind site, if only we has bought into SS's offer to license the
    technology we might still be relevant today. The last time I recall
    seeing a Unisaw on a show room floor was when I was shopping form my SS,
    9 years ago.

    I don't think so. Delta screwed up the company all on their own. I
    have a Delta DP (18-900L) that's becoming hard to get parts for too. Fortunately the parts I've needed are pretty standard.

    Powermatic with 50" $5525 and $4899 for 36"

    Like I said, Powermatic is stupidly expensive, across the board.

    I think because it was the GOLD standard for being the ultimate USA made
    machine it still has the draw. And maybe with the backing of the
    company that owns Jet and Wilton.

    No wonder they're so ugly. I don't mind Taiwanese tools. China is
    much more iffy. I wouldn't buy Chinese stationary tools, as long as
    there was another option.


    The ICS SS is $4825 with 52" and $4715 for 36"

    The $5K end of my range.

    SS has pretty much not gone up too much in the past 9 years. Wow I
    have had this saw 9 years. Just over 9 years ago I paid $4509
    including tax for the 52"


    Not trying to sell you just pointing out todays pricing "if" someone was >>>> in the market.

    Now, price a Laguna or Harvey.

    Well price a Laguna that is not built in Taiwan, in other words look at
    the Laguna TS that does not look like an American copy cat.

    Again, nothing wrong with Taiwan. BTW, Laguna is a US company. It's
    all imported from wherever and the Laguna name is stamped on it.

    Yeah, named after Laguna Beach where the founder used to surf.



    The European built Laguna was a bit more expensive than the SS 9 years
    ago. They had and continue to have the Fusion series, made in Taiwan.
    Not that that is a bad thing.

    Exactly. If you want to pay double for Italian, or US for that matter,
    made tools, go for it.

    I find that the European models have different and more interesting
    offerings. IIRC when I bought the Laguna "Band Saw" they did not offer
    the lesser brands. I was mostly interested in the ceramic guide system
    that they have.



    The one I was looking at was European and I was specifically looking at
    having a scoring blade added to the saw. When I talked With Laguna the
    sales guy indicated that if I wanted an up grade from the Jet Exacta
    cabinet saw that I should avoid the Fusion line of saws. I think he
    was indicatio9n that it would be a lateral move. And it being an
    American style saw it would not have any more features, like a scoring
    blade, than my Jet except maybe the riving knife.

    I understand that the new F3 is a very nice saw. I don't know all of
    the details because I'm not in the market for a saw.

    I was just looking! It or one like it along with General of Canada,
    not General International seem to be adding automation. IIRC blade
    automated blade tilt, height, and fence adjustment.

    Seems General is making a comeback. I saw the automated fence at the
    last WW show that I went to about a year ago.




    And ultimately my Jet was fine and I did not need to upgrade. My whole
    point to get another saw was from a safety stand point so I decided SS
    or keep the Jet. SS too advised me that if I wanted an upgrade over
    the Jet to go the ICS series, the original, over the Professional series.

    I tend to agree. The "Professional" doesn't look all that impressive,
    as a saw (ignoring the safety feature). The Jobsite saw is incredibly expensive for what it is. OK, a contractor needs insurance and all
    that but still...

    Well now/soon there is a bench top version for about $899. Absolutely
    too small for me but looks like it could be more easily used on the job
    site.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)