I have often been leery of using plywood sawdust as compost because of the "possibility" of formaldehyde glue usage, and have never used it in compost. After extensive research, I have never seen a definite yes or no. Newer plywood supposedly does notuse formaldehyde anymore, but it's still a guessing game.
Without extensive research about the plywood you are using, better to be safe than sorry when using plywood sawdust. I would imagine a very small amount would be OK, but leave that judgement up to you.
On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 15:15:03 +0000, Bearlymaknit ><0eafb85737c176862befeefd15b9bd66@example.com> wrote:
I have often been leery of using plywood sawdust as compost because of the "possibility"
of formaldehyde glue usage, and have never used it in compost. After extensive research,
I have never seen a definite yes or no. Newer plywood supposedly does not use
formaldehyde anymore, but it's still a guessing game.
Without extensive research about the plywood you are using, better to be safe than sorry
when using plywood sawdust. I would imagine a very small amount would be OK, >> but leave that judgement up to you.
Any saw dust is not really a good mulch, generally there is to much
nitrogen and will burn your plants. Composting saw dust not all that
great either.
On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 15:15:03 +0000, Bearlymaknit ><0eafb85737c176862befeefd15b9bd66@example.com> wrote:not use formaldehyde anymore, but it's still a guessing game.
I have often been leery of using plywood sawdust as compost because of the "possibility" of formaldehyde glue usage, and have never used it in compost. After extensive research, I have never seen a definite yes or no. Newer plywood supposedly does
Without extensive research about the plywood you are using, better to be safe than sorry when using plywood sawdust. I would imagine a very small amount would be OK, but leave that judgement up to you.
Any saw dust is not really a good mulch, generally there is to much
nitrogen and will burn your plants. Composting saw dust not all that
great either.
On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 15:15:03 +0000, Bearlymaknit ><0eafb85737c176862befeefd15b9bd66@example.com> wrote:
I have often been leery of using plywood sawdust as compost because of the >>"possibility" of formaldehyde glue usage, and have never used it in >>compost. After extensive research, I have never seen >a definite yes or >>no. Newer plywood supposedly does not use formaldehyde anymore, but it's >>still a guessing game.
Without extensive research about the plywood you are using, better to be
safe than sorry when using plywood sawdust. I would imagine a very small
amount would be OK, but leave that judgement >up to you.
Any saw dust is not really a good mulch, generally there is to much
nitrogen and will burn your plants. Composting saw dust not all that
great either.
"Markem618"Â wrote in message news:b76n1htn0qmuqvtml36iik16themkj862j@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 15:15:03 +0000, Bearlymaknit
<0eafb85737c176862befeefd15b9bd66@example.com> wrote:
I have often been leery of using plywood sawdust as compost because
of the "possibility" of formaldehyde glue usage, and have never used
it in compost. After extensive research, I have never seen >a
definite yes or no. Newer plywood supposedly does not use
formaldehyde anymore, but it's still a guessing game.
 Without extensive research about the plywood you are using, better
to be safe than sorry when using plywood sawdust. I would imagine a
very small amount would be OK, but leave that judgement >up to you.
Any saw dust is not really a good mulch, generally there is to much
nitrogen and will burn your plants. Composting saw dust not all that
great either.
I routinely mix saw dust with yard waste, vegetable garden waste,
kitchen waste, and fireplace ashes in my compost pile. I hit the whole
thing with a small tiller to mix it up well and have had very good
results in my vegetable garden. The key is to mix up the types of
materials added to the pile. Straight saw dust works pretty good as
mulch as it tends to form an almost solid sheet on the ground and
gobbles up the nitrogen in the soil which keeps weeds from growing.
I've spread a layer of saw dust along a fence line and then put a thin
layer of cedar mulch over it for appearance.
On 2/27/2022 11:08 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Markem618" wrote in message
news:b76n1htn0qmuqvtml36iik16themkj862j@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 15:15:03 +0000, Bearlymaknit
<0eafb85737c176862befeefd15b9bd66@example.com> wrote:
I have often been leery of using plywood sawdust as compost because
of the "possibility" of formaldehyde glue usage, and have never used
it in compost. After extensive research, I have never seen >a
definite yes or no. Newer plywood supposedly does not use
formaldehyde anymore, but it's still a guessing game.
Without extensive research about the plywood you are using, better
to be safe than sorry when using plywood sawdust. I would imagine a
very small amount would be OK, but leave that judgement >up to you.
Any saw dust is not really a good mulch, generally there is to much
nitrogen and will burn your plants. Composting saw dust not all that
great either.
I routinely mix saw dust with yard waste, vegetable garden waste,
kitchen waste, and fireplace ashes in my compost pile. I hit the whole
thing with a small tiller to mix it up well and have had very good
results in my vegetable garden. The key is to mix up the types of
materials added to the pile. Straight saw dust works pretty good as
mulch as it tends to form an almost solid sheet on the ground and
gobbles up the nitrogen in the soil which keeps weeds from growing.
I've spread a layer of saw dust along a fence line and then put a thin
layer of cedar mulch over it for appearance.
Aside from any useful properties that you may find it has, I would treat
it like the poison that it is. I suspect it's not nearly as bad as your >typical weedkiller, but it's not as "natural" as it may seem either. I'm
probably biased because I'm allergic to it.
On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 02:59:44 -0500, Bill <none...@att.net> wrote:
On 2/27/2022 11:08 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Markem618" wrote in message
news:b76n1htn0qmuqvtml...@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 15:15:03 +0000, Bearlymaknit
<0eafb85737c17686...@example.com> wrote:
I have often been leery of using plywood sawdust as compost because
of the "possibility" of formaldehyde glue usage, and have never used >>>> it in compost. After extensive research, I have never seen >a
definite yes or no. Newer plywood supposedly does not use
formaldehyde anymore, but it's still a guessing game.
Without extensive research about the plywood you are using, better
to be safe than sorry when using plywood sawdust. I would imagine a >>>> very small amount would be OK, but leave that judgement >up to you.
Any saw dust is not really a good mulch, generally there is to much
nitrogen and will burn your plants. Composting saw dust not all that
great either.
I routinely mix saw dust with yard waste, vegetable garden waste,
kitchen waste, and fireplace ashes in my compost pile. I hit the whole
thing with a small tiller to mix it up well and have had very good
results in my vegetable garden. The key is to mix up the types of
materials added to the pile. Straight saw dust works pretty good as
mulch as it tends to form an almost solid sheet on the ground and
gobbles up the nitrogen in the soil which keeps weeds from growing.
I've spread a layer of saw dust along a fence line and then put a thin
layer of cedar mulch over it for appearance.
Aside from any useful properties that you may find it has, I would treatHow can wood dust/shavings not be "natural"? By definition it is
it like the poison that it is. I suspect it's not nearly as bad as your >typical weedkiller, but it's not as "natural" as it may seem either. I'm
probably biased because I'm allergic to it.
because it came from nature herself.
You may be allergic to it but
many are allergic to ragweed, poison ivy, and as you point out
many/most species of wood but that doesn't mean it's not natural. Now,
add some MDF to it the mix and it's a whole different kettle.
In any case, I have places on my property where I spray Roundup, or
worse, but if saw dust works, well, two birds. I think I'll make a
path back through the trees, too, so that I can dump more. ;-)
On Monday, February 28, 2022 at 2:03:30 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 02:59:44 -0500, Bill <none...@att.net> wrote:
On 2/27/2022 11:08 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:How can wood dust/shavings not be "natural"? By definition it is
"Markem618" wrote in message
news:b76n1htn0qmuqvtml...@4ax.com...
On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 15:15:03 +0000, Bearlymaknit
<0eafb85737c17686...@example.com> wrote:
I have often been leery of using plywood sawdust as compost because
of the "possibility" of formaldehyde glue usage, and have never used
it in compost. After extensive research, I have never seen >a
definite yes or no. Newer plywood supposedly does not use
formaldehyde anymore, but it's still a guessing game.
Without extensive research about the plywood you are using, better
to be safe than sorry when using plywood sawdust. I would imagine a
very small amount would be OK, but leave that judgement >up to you.
Any saw dust is not really a good mulch, generally there is to much
nitrogen and will burn your plants. Composting saw dust not all that
great either.
I routinely mix saw dust with yard waste, vegetable garden waste,
kitchen waste, and fireplace ashes in my compost pile. I hit the whole
thing with a small tiller to mix it up well and have had very good
results in my vegetable garden. The key is to mix up the types of
materials added to the pile. Straight saw dust works pretty good as
mulch as it tends to form an almost solid sheet on the ground and
gobbles up the nitrogen in the soil which keeps weeds from growing.
I've spread a layer of saw dust along a fence line and then put a thin
layer of cedar mulch over it for appearance.
Aside from any useful properties that you may find it has, I would treat
it like the poison that it is. I suspect it's not nearly as bad as your
typical weedkiller, but it's not as "natural" as it may seem either. I'm
probably biased because I'm allergic to it.
because it came from nature herself.
The subject line says "plywood sawdust".
Ask nature herself - she'll send you the SDS's for
Urea Formaldehyde, Melamine, and Phenolic glues. ;-)
You may be allergic to it but
many are allergic to ragweed, poison ivy, and as you point out
many/most species of wood but that doesn't mean it's not natural. Now,
add some MDF to it the mix and it's a whole different kettle.
In any case, I have places on my property where I spray Roundup, or
worse, but if saw dust works, well, two birds. I think I'll make a
path back through the trees, too, so that I can dump more. ;-)
On 2/27/2022 11:08 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
I routinely mix saw dust with yard waste, vegetable garden waste, kitchen
waste, and fireplace ashes in my compost pile. I hit the whole thing with
a small tiller to mix it up well and have had very good results in my
vegetable garden. The key is to mix up the types of materials added to
the pile. Straight saw dust works pretty good as mulch as it tends to
form an almost solid sheet on the ground and gobbles up the nitrogen in
the soil which keeps weeds from growing. I've spread a layer of saw dust
along a fence line and then put a thin layer of cedar mulch over it for
appearance.
Aside from any useful properties that you may find it has, I would treat it >like the poison that it is. I suspect it's not nearly as bad as your
typical weedkiller, but it's not as "natural" as it may seem either. I'm >probably biased because I'm allergic to it.
"Bill"Â wrote in message news:Rh%SJ.50875$yi_7.50714@fx39.iad...
On 2/27/2022 11:08 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
I routinely mix saw dust with yard waste, vegetable garden waste,
kitchen waste, and fireplace ashes in my compost pile. I hit the
whole thing with a small tiller to mix it up well and have had very
good results in my vegetable garden. The key is to mix up the types
of materials added to the pile. Straight saw dust works pretty good
as mulch as it tends to form an almost solid sheet on the ground and
gobbles up the nitrogen in the soil which keeps weeds from growing.
I've spread a layer of saw dust along a fence line and then put a
thin layer of cedar mulch over it for appearance.
Aside from any useful properties that you may find it has, I would
treat it like the poison that it is. I suspect it's not nearly as bad
as your typical weedkiller, but it's not as "natural" as it may seem
either. I'm probably biased because I'm allergic to it.
In my case the vast majority of the sawdust is from solid wood with a relatively small amount coming from plywood (CDX, luan) so I don't worry about it.
Also, the glues are well cured by the time it becomes part of the saw
dust. As compared to the components being in a liquid state it will
degrade slowly. As such it is highly unlikely it would ever come close
to reaching a toxic concentration in the ground or water... The run off
from nearby roads and parking lots concerns me more! The amount of kerosene, hydraulic fluid and diesel fuel that utility and DPW road
crews lost on the road next to my property last year COULD kill ya!
Also, the glues are well cured by the time it becomes part of the saw
dust. As compared to the components being in a liquid state it will
degrade slowly. As such it is highly unlikely it would ever come close to
reaching a toxic concentration in the ground or water... The run off from
nearby roads and parking lots concerns me more! The amount of kerosene,
hydraulic fluid and diesel fuel that utility and DPW road crews lost on
the road next to my property last year COULD kill ya!
Possibly, but I think it's the Formaldehyde that gets me. I can get a
medium reaction from just opening a door of some of the new cabinetry at a >home shop (catching a wisp of "dust" in my face). I eventually got smarter >and unbox stuff like speakers in my garage and leave them there for a few >days to "out-gas" before bringing them into my home. FWIW, I get a similar >reaction from those aerosol cans of compressed "air". After I figured out >what was going on, I bought an electric solution.
I hope that it's clear, I was in no way telling the OP what to do--I was
just sharing my experience. For many people, the problem comes from >"over-exposure", so some mindfulness can't hurt. I've had the sensitivity >since being a young teen, so I'm not sure if I was "inadvertently" >over-exposed.
"Bill"Â wrote in message news:EeETJ.85676$Lbb6.66417@fx45.iad...
On 3/1/2022 5:11 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
Also, the glues are well cured by the time it becomes part of the saw
dust. As compared to the components being in a liquid state it will
degrade slowly. As such it is highly unlikely it would ever come
close to reaching a toxic concentration in the ground or water... The
run off from nearby roads and parking lots concerns me more! The
amount of kerosene, hydraulic fluid and diesel fuel that utility and
DPW road crews lost on the road next to my property last year COULD
kill ya!
Possibly, but I think it's the Formaldehyde that gets me. I can get a
medium reaction from just opening a door of some of the new cabinetry
at a home shop (catching a wisp of "dust" in my face). I eventually
got smarter and unbox stuff like speakers in my garage and leave them
there for a few days to "out-gas" before bringing them into my home.
FWIW, I get a similar reaction from those aerosol cans of compressed
"air". After I figured out what was going on, I bought an electric
solution.
I hope that it's clear, I was in no way telling the OP what to do--I
was just sharing my experience. For many people, the problem comes
from "over-exposure", so some mindfulness can't hurt. I've had the
sensitivity since being a young teen, so I'm not sure if I was
"inadvertently" over-exposed.
I am very familiar with this problem... Back in the early '90s it took
me 2 1/2 years to figure out that I was suffering from what is known as multiple chemical sensitivity (environmental illness). Myriad doctors couldn't figure out why my ear drums were bulging and I felt like I had
the flu for months at a time. I finally figured out it was from
chemicals outgassing from new pillows I bought for my bed! The sicker I felt the more time I spent in bed... it was debilitating. In the summer months when the windows were open the concentration of chemicals dropped
off and the symptoms were less severe.
Once I figured it out I immediately threw the pillows away and started feeling relief within a few days. After that it was avoidance. New
winter coats in department stores, new carpet in the university library,
new shower curtains... they all made me ill. After maybe 5 years I
didn't have any more problems.
On 3/1/2022 5:11 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
"Bill" wrote in message news:Rh%SJ.50875$yi_7.50714@fx39.iad...
On 2/27/2022 11:08 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
I routinely mix saw dust with yard waste, vegetable garden waste,
kitchen waste, and fireplace ashes in my compost pile. I hit the
whole thing with a small tiller to mix it up well and have had very
good results in my vegetable garden. The key is to mix up the types
of materials added to the pile. Straight saw dust works pretty good
as mulch as it tends to form an almost solid sheet on the ground and
gobbles up the nitrogen in the soil which keeps weeds from growing.
I've spread a layer of saw dust along a fence line and then put a
thin layer of cedar mulch over it for appearance.
Aside from any useful properties that you may find it has, I would
treat it like the poison that it is. I suspect it's not nearly as bad
as your typical weedkiller, but it's not as "natural" as it may seem
either. I'm probably biased because I'm allergic to it.
In my case the vast majority of the sawdust is from solid wood with a
relatively small amount coming from plywood (CDX, luan) so I don't worry
about it.
Also, the glues are well cured by the time it becomes part of the saw
dust. As compared to the components being in a liquid state it will
degrade slowly. As such it is highly unlikely it would ever come close
to reaching a toxic concentration in the ground or water... The run off
from nearby roads and parking lots concerns me more! The amount of
kerosene, hydraulic fluid and diesel fuel that utility and DPW road
crews lost on the road next to my property last year COULD kill ya!
Possibly, but I think it's the Formaldehyde that gets me. I can get a
medium reaction from just opening a door of some of the new cabinetry at
a home shop (catching a wisp of "dust" in my face). I eventually got
smarter and unbox stuff like speakers in my garage and leave them there
for a few days to "out-gas" before bringing them into my home. FWIW, I
get a similar reaction from those aerosol cans of compressed "air".
After I figured out what was going on, I bought an electric solution.
I hope that it's clear, I was in no way telling the OP what to do--I was
just sharing my experience. For many people, the problem comes from >"over-exposure", so some mindfulness can't hurt. I've had the
sensitivity since being a young teen, so I'm not sure if I was >"inadvertently" over-exposed.
I am very familiar with this problem... Back in the early '90s it took me 2 1/2 years to figure out that I was suffering from what is known as multiple chemical sensitivity (environmental illness). Myriad doctors couldn't figure out why my ear drums were bulging and I felt like I had the flu for months
at a time. I finally figured out it was from chemicals outgassing from new pillows I bought for my bed! The sicker I felt the more time I spent in bed... it was debilitating. In the summer months when the windows were open the concentration of chemicals dropped off and the symptoms were less
severe.
On 2022-03-02, John Grossbohlin <nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:
I am very familiar with this problem... Back in the early '90s it took me 2 >> 1/2 years to figure out that I was suffering from what is known as multiple >> chemical sensitivity (environmental illness). Myriad doctors couldn't figure >> out why my ear drums were bulging and I felt like I had the flu for months >> at a time. I finally figured out it was from chemicals outgassing from new >> pillows I bought for my bed! The sicker I felt the more time I spent in
bed... it was debilitating. In the summer months when the windows were open >> the concentration of chemicals dropped off and the symptoms were less
severe.
Chemical sensitivity runs in my family. VOC and other air quality
sensors are a lifesaver for me and I can usually correlate my symptoms directly with the VOCs in the air.
indoors well-ventilated at all times (I try to have positive pressure
in the house whenever possible, but H/ERVs are good alternatives.) My
mother is the first person in our family who ever pursued treatment
for it and only after years of doctors visits did we figure it out.
Gosh, I never heard of those. Could you please point me the right
direction as to the type of air quality sensors that you have found
useful?
So that makes 3 of us (victims) right here! I think there are more
people suffering from this than many wish to admit. Like you, it took
me several years to isolate the problem. It's my hypothesis that the chemicals we're talking about aren't good for anybody, it just that
different people have different tolerances to them. Corporations spend
a lot of money lobbying for the "right" to use various chemicals, so
it's not a simple matter to protect people.
There is too much "fine print", much is hidden in the fine print (e.g. "artificial ingredients"), and much of the time there is None at all.
My first encounter with "the problem" was when I encountered the soft
drink "Tab" as a youngster. It being a new "diet drink", people debated
it's merits/benefits/risks. It didn't take me long to figure out which
side I was on, and my innocence was lost! ;)
On 2022-03-02, John Grossbohlin <nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote: >> I am very familiar with this problem... Back in the early '90s it took me 2 >> 1/2 years to figure out that I was suffering from what is known as multiple >> chemical sensitivity (environmental illness). Myriad doctors couldn't figure >> out why my ear drums were bulging and I felt like I had the flu for months >> at a time. I finally figured out it was from chemicals outgassing from new >> pillows I bought for my bed! The sicker I felt the more time I spent in
bed... it was debilitating. In the summer months when the windows were open >> the concentration of chemicals dropped off and the symptoms were less
severe.
Chemical sensitivity runs in my family. VOC and other air quality
sensors are a lifesaver for me and I can usually correlate my symptoms >directly with the VOCs in the air. I've found the key is to keep the
indoors well-ventilated at all times (I try to have positive pressure
in the house whenever possible, but H/ERVs are good alternatives.) My
mother is the first person in our family who ever pursued treatment
for it and only after years of doctors visits did we figure it out.
On 2022-03-05, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:
Gosh, I never heard of those. Could you please point me the right
direction as to the type of air quality sensors that you have found
useful?
I'm a bit busy today but I'll try to get links going this
weekend.
finishes instead of buying the pre-mixed ones from hardware
stores. Fewer VOCs give me much fewer headaches when waiting for the
shellac to cure!
On 2022-03-05, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:
Gosh, I never heard of those. Could you please point me the right
direction as to the type of air quality sensors that you have found
useful?
I'm a bit busy today but I'll try to get links going this
weekend. It's also largely the reason I prefer to mix my own shellac
finishes instead of buying the pre-mixed ones from hardware
stores. Fewer VOCs give me much fewer headaches when waiting for the
shellac to cure!
On 2022-03-02, John Grossbohlin <nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net>
wrote:
I am very familiar with this problem... Back in the early '90s it took me
2
1/2 years to figure out that I was suffering from what is known as
multiple
chemical sensitivity (environmental illness). Myriad doctors couldn't
figure
out why my ear drums were bulging and I felt like I had the flu for
months
at a time. I finally figured out it was from chemicals outgassing from
new
pillows I bought for my bed! The sicker I felt the more time I spent in
bed... it was debilitating. In the summer months when the windows were
open
the concentration of chemicals dropped off and the symptoms were less
severe.
Chemical sensitivity runs in my family. VOC and other air quality
sensors are a lifesaver for me and I can usually correlate my symptoms >directly with the VOCs in the air. I've found the key is to keep the
indoors well-ventilated at all times (I try to have positive pressure
in the house whenever possible, but H/ERVs are good alternatives.) My
mother is the first person in our family who ever pursued treatment
for it and only after years of doctors visits did we figure it out.
"meff" wrote in message news:svubri$5dh$4@dont-email.me...
On 2022-03-02, John Grossbohlin <nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> >>wrote:
I am very familiar with this problem... Back in the early '90s it took me >>> 2
1/2 years to figure out that I was suffering from what is known as
multiple
chemical sensitivity (environmental illness). Myriad doctors couldn't
figure
out why my ear drums were bulging and I felt like I had the flu for
months
at a time. I finally figured out it was from chemicals outgassing from
new
pillows I bought for my bed! The sicker I felt the more time I spent in >>> bed... it was debilitating. In the summer months when the windows were
open
the concentration of chemicals dropped off and the symptoms were less
severe.
Chemical sensitivity runs in my family. VOC and other air quality
sensors are a lifesaver for me and I can usually correlate my symptoms >>directly with the VOCs in the air. I've found the key is to keep the >>indoors well-ventilated at all times (I try to have positive pressure
in the house whenever possible, but H/ERVs are good alternatives.) My >>mother is the first person in our family who ever pursued treatment
for it and only after years of doctors visits did we figure it out.
A recurring theme I've experienced, and seen with others, is that the
medical profession doesn't have chemical sensitivity training and the >appropriate responding scripts in their bag of tricks. The only reason I >found relief was by not giving up and by talking to a diverse set of people. >The key in my case was a conversation I had with a director of disabled >student services for a university. I figured that in her job she had
probably encountered a very diverse set of issues among students. After >chatting for a bit she went to a file cabinet and came back with a manila >folder that contained some journal articles. She didn't say anything beyond >"Read these and we can chat again..."
By the time I finished the second article I had zeroed in on the pillows... >When I chatted with her again it turned out that she had the same problems >and had the same experience with the medical profession--after a couple
years they imply it's all in your head, it's not real! Once I had that lead >I dug deeper and found that there was a somewhat fringe literature on the >topic. Skip ahead 30 years to the present and there is a wider understanding >of the issue and a larger literature. The mold, radon and Chinese drywall >debacles put a spot light on indoor air pollution but you're still not
likely to find it through your doctor.
In the director's case she and her husband built a new house that had no >sheet goods or paint. It was all solid wood construction with unpainted >plaster walls and ceilings (over lathe as I recall). Solid wood sheathing, >solid wood cabinets, hardwood floors, ceramic tile, air-to-air heater >exchanger fresh air intake, etc. Protective finishes were carefully >selected...
I mentioned my issues to an environmental engineer who used to focus on
radon gas testing and remediation. The last I spoke with him he was working >on protocols for the NYC library system in response to COVID. He was very >aware of indoor air pollution problems... An environmental scientist I know >was hired by the cruise ship industry to deal with the Legionnaire's Disease >outbreaks on the cruise ships. In the case of Legionnaire's... that boiled >down to the lack of maintenance resulting from fraudulent recording >keeping--crew were tasked with taking monitoring readings of various systems >on the ships and they weren't actually doing so. Rather they were simply >making entries in logs that were within acceptable ranges. This problem was >found to be wide spread and not just on a few ships. Those two guys are not >physicians... they don’t see human patients, they see buildings, ships and >systems as their subjects. More general communication is needed!
"meff"Â wrote in message news:svubri$5dh$4@dont-email.me...
On 2022-03-02, John Grossbohlin <nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net>
wrote:
I am very familiar with this problem... Back in the early '90s it
took me 2
1/2 years to figure out that I was suffering from what is known as
multiple
chemical sensitivity (environmental illness). Myriad doctors couldn't
figure
out why my ear drums were bulging and I felt like I had the flu for
months
at a time. I finally figured out it was from chemicals outgassing
from new
pillows I bought for my bed! The sicker I felt the more time I spent in >>> bed... it was debilitating. In the summer months when the windows
were open
the concentration of chemicals dropped off and the symptoms were less
severe.
Chemical sensitivity runs in my family. VOC and other air quality
sensors are a lifesaver for me and I can usually correlate my symptoms
directly with the VOCs in the air. I've found the key is to keep the
indoors well-ventilated at all times (I try to have positive pressure
in the house whenever possible, but H/ERVs are good alternatives.) My
mother is the first person in our family who ever pursued treatment
for it and only after years of doctors visits did we figure it out.
A recurring theme I've experienced, and seen with others, is that the
medical profession doesn't have chemical sensitivity training and the appropriate responding scripts in their bag of tricks.
found relief was by not giving up and by talking to a diverse set of
people. The key in my case was a conversation I had with a director of disabled student services for a university. I figured that in her job
she had probably encountered a very diverse set of issues among
students. After chatting for a bit she went to a file cabinet and came
back with a manila folder that contained some journal articles. She
didn't say anything beyond "Read these and we can chat again..."
By the time I finished the second article I had zeroed in on the
pillows... When I chatted with her again it turned out that she had the
same problems and had the same experience with the medical
profession--after a couple years they imply it's all in your head, it's
not real! Once I had that lead I dug deeper and found that there was a somewhat fringe literature on the topic. Skip ahead 30 years to the
present and there is a wider understanding of the issue and a larger literature. The mold, radon and Chinese drywall debacles put a spot
light on indoor air pollution but you're still not likely to find it
through your doctor.
In the director's case she and her husband built a new house that had no sheet goods or paint. It was all solid wood construction with unpainted plaster walls and ceilings (over lathe as I recall). Solid wood
sheathing, solid wood cabinets, hardwood floors, ceramic tile,
air-to-air heater exchanger fresh air intake, etc. Protective finishes
were carefully selected...
I mentioned my issues to an environmental engineer who used to focus on
radon gas testing and remediation. The last I spoke with him he was
working on protocols for the NYC library system in response to COVID. He
was very aware of indoor air pollution problems... An environmental scientist I know was hired by the cruise ship industry to deal with the Legionnaire's Disease outbreaks on the cruise ships. In the case of Legionnaire's... that boiled down to the lack of maintenance resulting
from fraudulent recording keeping--crew were tasked with taking
monitoring readings of various systems on the ships and they weren't
actually doing so. Rather they were simply making entries in logs that
were within acceptable ranges. This problem was found to be wide spread
and not just on a few ships. Those two guys are not physicians... they don’t see human patients, they see buildings, ships and systems as their subjects. More general communication is needed!
On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 13:41:39 -0500, "John Grossbohlin" ><nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:
By the time I finished the second article I had zeroed in on the
pillows...
When I chatted with her again it turned out that she had the same problems >>and had the same experience with the medical profession--after a couple >>years they imply it's all in your head, it's not real! Once I had that >>lead
I dug deeper and found that there was a somewhat fringe literature on the >>topic. Skip ahead 30 years to the present and there is a wider >>understanding
of the issue and a larger literature. The mold, radon and Chinese drywall >>debacles put a spot light on indoor air pollution but you're still not >>likely to find it through your doctor.
This subject is a lot more complicated than doctors not caring to find
the cause of your distress. If they could, is it a justifiable use of
their time?
wrote in message news:375d2hht461n4mjt4doamjhrc1t79g98co@4ax.com...
On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 13:41:39 -0500, "John Grossbohlin" >><nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:
By the time I finished the second article I had zeroed in on the >>>pillows...
When I chatted with her again it turned out that she had the same problems >>>and had the same experience with the medical profession--after a couple >>>years they imply it's all in your head, it's not real! Once I had that >>>lead
I dug deeper and found that there was a somewhat fringe literature on the >>>topic. Skip ahead 30 years to the present and there is a wider >>>understanding
of the issue and a larger literature. The mold, radon and Chinese drywall >>>debacles put a spot light on indoor air pollution but you're still not >>>likely to find it through your doctor.
This subject is a lot more complicated than doctors not caring to find
the cause of your distress. If they could, is it a justifiable use of
their time?
It's not an issue of doctors not caring, it's a training issue and what >scripts they follow based on the symptoms they see. "Ear infection... that's >what you have and here are scripts (as in prescriptions) for antibiotics." >What they missed was there was no inflammation and it was both ears... clues >that should have led them to dig deeper but their scripts never allowed for >that and I was too naive at the time.
"Scripts" in this case refers to the framework for the action to take based >on the symptoms. There are lots of scripts out there and an industry >promoting them... For example, >https://www.vidanthealth.com/patients-and-families/advance-care-planning/conversation-scripts-for-providers/
So yes, it's a justifiable pursuit to not blindly follow scripts and to take >other possibilities into account, particularly with the ever growing >incidences of toxic substances making people ill.
My PCP has been in practice for about 13 years and we have had some >interesting conversations about the industry. I spent over 20 years in >quality at health insurance companies and have been witness to plenty of >incompetence, waste, fraud and neglect and have seen the disciplinary
records of many providers. I've fired some of my personal providers and had >them flagged for intentional billing fraud and up-coding. There is a home >health agency in FL with a significant ding on their public record as I >helped a friend file a claim against them with the regulatory agency... a >claim that was substantiated. That is not to say all providers are bad or >thieves but it is to say that you, as a consumer, need to be informed. Not >informed like having every rare disease you find on Web MD... but informed
as to process and taking some responsibility for your own health. ;~)
On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:47:11 -0500, "John Grossbohlin" ><nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:
wrote in message news:375d2hht461n4mjt4doamjhrc1t79g98co@4ax.com...
On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 13:41:39 -0500, "John Grossbohlin" >>><nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:
By the time I finished the second article I had zeroed in on the >>>>pillows...
When I chatted with her again it turned out that she had the same >>>>problems
and had the same experience with the medical profession--after a couple >>>>years they imply it's all in your head, it's not real! Once I had that >>>>lead
I dug deeper and found that there was a somewhat fringe literature on >>>>the
topic. Skip ahead 30 years to the present and there is a wider > >>>>understanding
of the issue and a larger literature. The mold, radon and Chinese >>>>drywall
debacles put a spot light on indoor air pollution but you're still not >>>>likely to find it through your doctor.
This subject is a lot more complicated than doctors not caring to find >>>the cause of your distress. If they could, is it a justifiable use of >>>their time?
It's not an issue of doctors not caring, it's a training issue and what >>scripts they follow based on the symptoms they see. "Ear infection... >>that's
what you have and here are scripts (as in prescriptions) for antibiotics." >>What they missed was there was no inflammation and it was both ears... >>clues
that should have led them to dig deeper but their scripts never allowed
for
that and I was too naive at the time.
SO you think they're taught that ear infections don't cause
inflammation? That they're taught to prescribe antibiotics for a
sprained ankle? With the concern with overuse of antibiotics, I highly
doubt it.
BTW, with the exception of one PCP, all of my doctors have been top
notch. I have a dozen, or more, appointments with five or six
specialists every year. I just picked up two more for another dozen
visits but I hope it's temporary. While I've found almost universal >competence in physicians, I've found the opposite with the
administrators. They're almost wholly incompetent.
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