• Re: Plywood sawdust as mulch?

    From Bearlymaknit@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 27 15:15:03 2022
    I have often been leery of using plywood sawdust as compost because of the "possibility" of formaldehyde glue usage, and have never used it in compost. After extensive research, I have never seen a definite yes or no. Newer plywood supposedly does not
    use formaldehyde anymore, but it's still a guessing game.
    Without extensive research about the plywood you are using, better to be safe than sorry when using plywood sawdust. I would imagine a very small amount would be OK, but leave that judgement up to you.

    --
    For full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/woodworking/plywood-sawdust-as-mulch-159963-.htm

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Markem618@21:1/5 to 0eafb85737c176862befeefd15b9bd66@ex on Sun Feb 27 09:32:08 2022
    On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 15:15:03 +0000, Bearlymaknit <0eafb85737c176862befeefd15b9bd66@example.com> wrote:

    I have often been leery of using plywood sawdust as compost because of the "possibility" of formaldehyde glue usage, and have never used it in compost. After extensive research, I have never seen a definite yes or no. Newer plywood supposedly does not
    use formaldehyde anymore, but it's still a guessing game.
    Without extensive research about the plywood you are using, better to be safe than sorry when using plywood sawdust. I would imagine a very small amount would be OK, but leave that judgement up to you.

    Any saw dust is not really a good mulch, generally there is to much
    nitrogen and will burn your plants. Composting saw dust not all that
    great either.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From hubops@ccanoemail.ca@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 27 11:20:26 2022
    On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 09:32:08 -0600, Markem618 <markrm618@hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 15:15:03 +0000, Bearlymaknit ><0eafb85737c176862befeefd15b9bd66@example.com> wrote:

    I have often been leery of using plywood sawdust as compost because of the "possibility"
    of formaldehyde glue usage, and have never used it in compost. After extensive research,
    I have never seen a definite yes or no. Newer plywood supposedly does not use
    formaldehyde anymore, but it's still a guessing game.
    Without extensive research about the plywood you are using, better to be safe than sorry
    when using plywood sawdust. I would imagine a very small amount would be OK, >> but leave that judgement up to you.

    Any saw dust is not really a good mulch, generally there is to much
    nitrogen and will burn your plants. Composting saw dust not all that
    great either.


    This gardening web site says that sawdust _depletes_
    the nitrogen in the soil as it breaks down ...
    ... that must be what you meant to say ? ;-)

    https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/garden-how-to/mulch/using-sawdust-as-mulch.htm

    John T.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 27 16:26:30 2022
    On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 09:32:08 -0600, Markem618 <markrm618@hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 15:15:03 +0000, Bearlymaknit ><0eafb85737c176862befeefd15b9bd66@example.com> wrote:

    I have often been leery of using plywood sawdust as compost because of the "possibility" of formaldehyde glue usage, and have never used it in compost. After extensive research, I have never seen a definite yes or no. Newer plywood supposedly does
    not use formaldehyde anymore, but it's still a guessing game.
    Without extensive research about the plywood you are using, better to be safe than sorry when using plywood sawdust. I would imagine a very small amount would be OK, but leave that judgement up to you.

    Any saw dust is not really a good mulch, generally there is to much
    nitrogen and will burn your plants. Composting saw dust not all that
    great either.

    I'd been told that, being mostly a pine, it's too acidic for most
    plants but rhodies and Azaleas (a type of rhododendron) get off on it,
    not that I'm going to try. I just dump it in the woods behind my
    house.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Grossbohlin@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 27 23:08:13 2022
    "Markem618" wrote in message news:b76n1htn0qmuqvtml36iik16themkj862j@4ax.com...

    On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 15:15:03 +0000, Bearlymaknit ><0eafb85737c176862befeefd15b9bd66@example.com> wrote:

    I have often been leery of using plywood sawdust as compost because of the >>"possibility" of formaldehyde glue usage, and have never used it in >>compost. After extensive research, I have never seen >a definite yes or >>no. Newer plywood supposedly does not use formaldehyde anymore, but it's >>still a guessing game.
    Without extensive research about the plywood you are using, better to be
    safe than sorry when using plywood sawdust. I would imagine a very small
    amount would be OK, but leave that judgement >up to you.

    Any saw dust is not really a good mulch, generally there is to much
    nitrogen and will burn your plants. Composting saw dust not all that
    great either.

    I routinely mix saw dust with yard waste, vegetable garden waste, kitchen waste, and fireplace ashes in my compost pile. I hit the whole thing with a small tiller to mix it up well and have had very good results in my
    vegetable garden. The key is to mix up the types of materials added to the pile. Straight saw dust works pretty good as mulch as it tends to form an almost solid sheet on the ground and gobbles up the nitrogen in the soil
    which keeps weeds from growing. I've spread a layer of saw dust along a
    fence line and then put a thin layer of cedar mulch over it for appearance.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill@21:1/5 to John Grossbohlin on Mon Feb 28 02:59:44 2022
    On 2/27/2022 11:08 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "Markem618"  wrote in message news:b76n1htn0qmuqvtml36iik16themkj862j@4ax.com...

    On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 15:15:03 +0000, Bearlymaknit
    <0eafb85737c176862befeefd15b9bd66@example.com> wrote:

    I have often been leery of using plywood sawdust as compost because
    of the "possibility" of formaldehyde glue usage, and have never used
    it in compost.  After extensive research, I have never seen >a
    definite yes or no.  Newer plywood supposedly does not use
    formaldehyde anymore, but it's still a guessing game.
     Without extensive research about the plywood you are using, better
    to be safe than sorry when using plywood sawdust.  I would imagine a
    very small amount would be OK, but leave that judgement >up to you.

    Any saw dust is not really a good mulch, generally there is to much
    nitrogen and will burn your plants. Composting saw dust not all that
    great either.

    I routinely mix saw dust with yard waste, vegetable garden waste,
    kitchen waste, and fireplace ashes in my compost pile. I hit the whole
    thing with a small tiller to mix it up well and have had very good
    results in my vegetable garden. The key is to mix up the types of
    materials added to the pile. Straight saw dust works pretty good as
    mulch as it tends to form an almost solid sheet on the ground and
    gobbles up the nitrogen in the soil which keeps weeds from growing.
    I've spread a layer of saw dust along a fence line and then put a thin
    layer of cedar mulch over it for appearance.


    Aside from any useful properties that you may find it has, I would treat
    it like the poison that it is. I suspect it's not nearly as bad as your
    typical weedkiller, but it's not as "natural" as it may seem either. I'm
    probably biased because I'm allergic to it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to Bill on Mon Feb 28 14:03:22 2022
    On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 02:59:44 -0500, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

    On 2/27/2022 11:08 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "Markem618" wrote in message
    news:b76n1htn0qmuqvtml36iik16themkj862j@4ax.com...

    On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 15:15:03 +0000, Bearlymaknit
    <0eafb85737c176862befeefd15b9bd66@example.com> wrote:

    I have often been leery of using plywood sawdust as compost because
    of the "possibility" of formaldehyde glue usage, and have never used
    it in compost. After extensive research, I have never seen >a
    definite yes or no. Newer plywood supposedly does not use
    formaldehyde anymore, but it's still a guessing game.
    Without extensive research about the plywood you are using, better
    to be safe than sorry when using plywood sawdust. I would imagine a
    very small amount would be OK, but leave that judgement >up to you.

    Any saw dust is not really a good mulch, generally there is to much
    nitrogen and will burn your plants. Composting saw dust not all that
    great either.

    I routinely mix saw dust with yard waste, vegetable garden waste,
    kitchen waste, and fireplace ashes in my compost pile. I hit the whole
    thing with a small tiller to mix it up well and have had very good
    results in my vegetable garden. The key is to mix up the types of
    materials added to the pile. Straight saw dust works pretty good as
    mulch as it tends to form an almost solid sheet on the ground and
    gobbles up the nitrogen in the soil which keeps weeds from growing.
    I've spread a layer of saw dust along a fence line and then put a thin
    layer of cedar mulch over it for appearance.


    Aside from any useful properties that you may find it has, I would treat
    it like the poison that it is. I suspect it's not nearly as bad as your >typical weedkiller, but it's not as "natural" as it may seem either. I'm
    probably biased because I'm allergic to it.

    How can wood dust/shavings not be "natural"? By definition it is
    because it came from nature herself. You may be allergic to it but
    many are allergic to ragweed, poison ivy, and as you point out
    many/most species of wood but that doesn't mean it's not natural. Now,
    add some MDF to it the mix and it's a whole different kettle.

    In any case, I have places on my property where I spray Roundup, or
    worse, but if saw dust works, well, two birds. I think I'll make a
    path back through the trees, too, so that I can dump more. ;-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to k...@notreal.com on Mon Feb 28 17:25:18 2022
    On Monday, February 28, 2022 at 2:03:30 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 02:59:44 -0500, Bill <none...@att.net> wrote:

    On 2/27/2022 11:08 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "Markem618" wrote in message
    news:b76n1htn0qmuqvtml...@4ax.com...

    On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 15:15:03 +0000, Bearlymaknit
    <0eafb85737c17686...@example.com> wrote:

    I have often been leery of using plywood sawdust as compost because
    of the "possibility" of formaldehyde glue usage, and have never used >>>> it in compost. After extensive research, I have never seen >a
    definite yes or no. Newer plywood supposedly does not use
    formaldehyde anymore, but it's still a guessing game.
    Without extensive research about the plywood you are using, better
    to be safe than sorry when using plywood sawdust. I would imagine a >>>> very small amount would be OK, but leave that judgement >up to you.

    Any saw dust is not really a good mulch, generally there is to much
    nitrogen and will burn your plants. Composting saw dust not all that
    great either.

    I routinely mix saw dust with yard waste, vegetable garden waste,
    kitchen waste, and fireplace ashes in my compost pile. I hit the whole
    thing with a small tiller to mix it up well and have had very good
    results in my vegetable garden. The key is to mix up the types of
    materials added to the pile. Straight saw dust works pretty good as
    mulch as it tends to form an almost solid sheet on the ground and
    gobbles up the nitrogen in the soil which keeps weeds from growing.
    I've spread a layer of saw dust along a fence line and then put a thin
    layer of cedar mulch over it for appearance.


    Aside from any useful properties that you may find it has, I would treat
    it like the poison that it is. I suspect it's not nearly as bad as your >typical weedkiller, but it's not as "natural" as it may seem either. I'm
    probably biased because I'm allergic to it.
    How can wood dust/shavings not be "natural"? By definition it is
    because it came from nature herself.

    The subject line says "plywood sawdust".

    Ask nature herself - she'll send you the SDS's for
    Urea Formaldehyde, Melamine, and Phenolic glues. ;-)

    You may be allergic to it but
    many are allergic to ragweed, poison ivy, and as you point out
    many/most species of wood but that doesn't mean it's not natural. Now,
    add some MDF to it the mix and it's a whole different kettle.

    In any case, I have places on my property where I spray Roundup, or
    worse, but if saw dust works, well, two birds. I think I'll make a
    path back through the trees, too, so that I can dump more. ;-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Mon Feb 28 20:57:37 2022
    On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 17:25:18 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Monday, February 28, 2022 at 2:03:30 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Mon, 28 Feb 2022 02:59:44 -0500, Bill <none...@att.net> wrote:

    On 2/27/2022 11:08 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "Markem618" wrote in message
    news:b76n1htn0qmuqvtml...@4ax.com...

    On Sun, 27 Feb 2022 15:15:03 +0000, Bearlymaknit
    <0eafb85737c17686...@example.com> wrote:

    I have often been leery of using plywood sawdust as compost because
    of the "possibility" of formaldehyde glue usage, and have never used
    it in compost. After extensive research, I have never seen >a
    definite yes or no. Newer plywood supposedly does not use
    formaldehyde anymore, but it's still a guessing game.
    Without extensive research about the plywood you are using, better
    to be safe than sorry when using plywood sawdust. I would imagine a
    very small amount would be OK, but leave that judgement >up to you.

    Any saw dust is not really a good mulch, generally there is to much
    nitrogen and will burn your plants. Composting saw dust not all that
    great either.

    I routinely mix saw dust with yard waste, vegetable garden waste,
    kitchen waste, and fireplace ashes in my compost pile. I hit the whole
    thing with a small tiller to mix it up well and have had very good
    results in my vegetable garden. The key is to mix up the types of
    materials added to the pile. Straight saw dust works pretty good as
    mulch as it tends to form an almost solid sheet on the ground and
    gobbles up the nitrogen in the soil which keeps weeds from growing.
    I've spread a layer of saw dust along a fence line and then put a thin
    layer of cedar mulch over it for appearance.


    Aside from any useful properties that you may find it has, I would treat
    it like the poison that it is. I suspect it's not nearly as bad as your
    typical weedkiller, but it's not as "natural" as it may seem either. I'm
    probably biased because I'm allergic to it.
    How can wood dust/shavings not be "natural"? By definition it is
    because it came from nature herself.

    The subject line says "plywood sawdust".

    Ask nature herself - she'll send you the SDS's for
    Urea Formaldehyde, Melamine, and Phenolic glues. ;-)

    I didn't think urea was used anymore.

    You may be allergic to it but
    many are allergic to ragweed, poison ivy, and as you point out
    many/most species of wood but that doesn't mean it's not natural. Now,
    add some MDF to it the mix and it's a whole different kettle.

    In any case, I have places on my property where I spray Roundup, or
    worse, but if saw dust works, well, two birds. I think I'll make a
    path back through the trees, too, so that I can dump more. ;-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Grossbohlin@21:1/5 to Bill on Tue Mar 1 17:11:01 2022
    "Bill" wrote in message news:Rh%SJ.50875$yi_7.50714@fx39.iad...

    On 2/27/2022 11:08 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

    I routinely mix saw dust with yard waste, vegetable garden waste, kitchen
    waste, and fireplace ashes in my compost pile. I hit the whole thing with
    a small tiller to mix it up well and have had very good results in my
    vegetable garden. The key is to mix up the types of materials added to
    the pile. Straight saw dust works pretty good as mulch as it tends to
    form an almost solid sheet on the ground and gobbles up the nitrogen in
    the soil which keeps weeds from growing. I've spread a layer of saw dust
    along a fence line and then put a thin layer of cedar mulch over it for
    appearance.


    Aside from any useful properties that you may find it has, I would treat it >like the poison that it is. I suspect it's not nearly as bad as your
    typical weedkiller, but it's not as "natural" as it may seem either. I'm >probably biased because I'm allergic to it.

    In my case the vast majority of the sawdust is from solid wood with a relatively small amount coming from plywood (CDX, luan) so I don't worry
    about it.

    Also, the glues are well cured by the time it becomes part of the saw dust.
    As compared to the components being in a liquid state it will degrade
    slowly. As such it is highly unlikely it would ever come close to reaching a toxic concentration in the ground or water... The run off from nearby roads
    and parking lots concerns me more! The amount of kerosene, hydraulic fluid
    and diesel fuel that utility and DPW road crews lost on the road next to my property last year COULD kill ya!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill@21:1/5 to John Grossbohlin on Wed Mar 2 01:35:15 2022
    On 3/1/2022 5:11 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "Bill"  wrote in message news:Rh%SJ.50875$yi_7.50714@fx39.iad...

    On 2/27/2022 11:08 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

    I routinely mix saw dust with yard waste, vegetable garden waste,
    kitchen waste, and fireplace ashes in my compost pile. I hit the
    whole thing with a small tiller to mix it up well and have had very
    good results in my vegetable garden. The key is to mix up the types
    of materials added to the pile. Straight saw dust works pretty good
    as mulch as it tends to form an almost solid sheet on the ground and
    gobbles up the nitrogen in the soil which keeps weeds from growing.
    I've spread a layer of saw dust along a fence line and then put a
    thin layer of cedar mulch over it for appearance.


    Aside from any useful properties that you may find it has, I would
    treat it like the poison that it is. I suspect it's not nearly as bad
    as your typical weedkiller, but it's not as "natural" as it may seem
    either. I'm probably biased because I'm allergic to it.

    In my case the vast majority of the sawdust is from solid wood with a relatively small amount coming from plywood (CDX, luan) so I don't worry about it.

    Also, the glues are well cured by the time it becomes part of the saw
    dust. As compared to the components being in a liquid state it will
    degrade slowly. As such it is highly unlikely it would ever come close
    to reaching a toxic concentration in the ground or water... The run off
    from nearby roads and parking lots concerns me more!  The amount of kerosene, hydraulic fluid and diesel fuel that utility and DPW road
    crews lost on the road next to my property last year COULD kill ya!


    Possibly, but I think it's the Formaldehyde that gets me. I can get a
    medium reaction from just opening a door of some of the new cabinetry at
    a home shop (catching a wisp of "dust" in my face). I eventually got
    smarter and unbox stuff like speakers in my garage and leave them there
    for a few days to "out-gas" before bringing them into my home. FWIW, I
    get a similar reaction from those aerosol cans of compressed "air".
    After I figured out what was going on, I bought an electric solution.

    I hope that it's clear, I was in no way telling the OP what to do--I was
    just sharing my experience. For many people, the problem comes from "over-exposure", so some mindfulness can't hurt. I've had the
    sensitivity since being a young teen, so I'm not sure if I was
    "inadvertently" over-exposed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Grossbohlin@21:1/5 to John Grossbohlin on Wed Mar 2 11:14:42 2022
    "Bill" wrote in message news:EeETJ.85676$Lbb6.66417@fx45.iad...

    On 3/1/2022 5:11 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

    Also, the glues are well cured by the time it becomes part of the saw
    dust. As compared to the components being in a liquid state it will
    degrade slowly. As such it is highly unlikely it would ever come close to
    reaching a toxic concentration in the ground or water... The run off from
    nearby roads and parking lots concerns me more! The amount of kerosene,
    hydraulic fluid and diesel fuel that utility and DPW road crews lost on
    the road next to my property last year COULD kill ya!


    Possibly, but I think it's the Formaldehyde that gets me. I can get a
    medium reaction from just opening a door of some of the new cabinetry at a >home shop (catching a wisp of "dust" in my face). I eventually got smarter >and unbox stuff like speakers in my garage and leave them there for a few >days to "out-gas" before bringing them into my home. FWIW, I get a similar >reaction from those aerosol cans of compressed "air". After I figured out >what was going on, I bought an electric solution.

    I hope that it's clear, I was in no way telling the OP what to do--I was
    just sharing my experience. For many people, the problem comes from >"over-exposure", so some mindfulness can't hurt. I've had the sensitivity >since being a young teen, so I'm not sure if I was "inadvertently" >over-exposed.

    I am very familiar with this problem... Back in the early '90s it took me 2
    1/2 years to figure out that I was suffering from what is known as multiple chemical sensitivity (environmental illness). Myriad doctors couldn't figure out why my ear drums were bulging and I felt like I had the flu for months
    at a time. I finally figured out it was from chemicals outgassing from new pillows I bought for my bed! The sicker I felt the more time I spent in
    bed... it was debilitating. In the summer months when the windows were open the concentration of chemicals dropped off and the symptoms were less
    severe.

    Once I figured it out I immediately threw the pillows away and started
    feeling relief within a few days. After that it was avoidance. New winter
    coats in department stores, new carpet in the university library, new shower curtains... they all made me ill. After maybe 5 years I didn't have any more problems. I only wear natural fabrics for warmth now (primarily wool, some down) and like you I let items outgas before introducing them into my home.
    New sleeping bags and tents sit outside before I use them. I leave new
    vehicles sitting in the sun with the windows rolled up to get the interiors
    hot to cook off the chemicals...

    Regarding wood, I use sheet goods for construction purposes but very little
    in my fine woodworking. In my home renovation the only plywood I used was
    for the subfloor. That was in a part of the house where I could leave the windows open and it was isolated from the rest of the house. I avoid sheet goods of all types inside the house... drywall is an exception. I'll be
    making solid wood Shaker style cabinets for the kitchen and bathroom and all new casing and millwork... There is a logging truck worth of poplar sitting waiting for me to mill it! I'm collecting oak logs for plank flooring. A 3
    HP shaper, molding machine, and power feeder (in addition to my cabinet saw, jointer, thickness planer, etc.) will make this possible. I'd not consider doing it without the power feeder. I'm mounting the power feed on the
    jointer, table saw and shaper for each step. Hand feeding thousands of board feet of material through those machines multiple times is not my idea of a
    good time!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill@21:1/5 to John Grossbohlin on Wed Mar 2 13:16:40 2022
    On 3/2/2022 11:14 AM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "Bill"  wrote in message news:EeETJ.85676$Lbb6.66417@fx45.iad...

    On 3/1/2022 5:11 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

    Also, the glues are well cured by the time it becomes part of the saw
    dust. As compared to the components being in a liquid state it will
    degrade slowly. As such it is highly unlikely it would ever come
    close to reaching a toxic concentration in the ground or water... The
    run off from nearby roads and parking lots concerns me more!  The
    amount of kerosene, hydraulic fluid and diesel fuel that utility and
    DPW road crews lost on the road next to my property last year COULD
    kill ya!


    Possibly, but I think it's the Formaldehyde that gets me. I can get a
    medium reaction from just opening a door of some of the new cabinetry
    at a home shop (catching a wisp of "dust" in my face).  I eventually
    got smarter and unbox stuff like speakers in my garage and leave them
    there for a few days to "out-gas" before bringing them into my home.
    FWIW, I get a similar reaction from those aerosol cans of compressed
    "air". After I figured out what was going on, I bought an electric
    solution.

    I hope that it's clear, I was in no way telling the OP what to do--I
    was just sharing my experience. For many people, the problem comes
    from "over-exposure", so some mindfulness can't hurt. I've had the
    sensitivity since being a young teen, so I'm not sure if I was
    "inadvertently" over-exposed.

    I am very familiar with this problem... Back in the early '90s it took
    me 2 1/2 years to figure out that I was suffering from what is known as multiple chemical sensitivity (environmental illness). Myriad doctors couldn't figure out why my ear drums were bulging and I felt like I had
    the flu for months at a time. I finally figured out it was from
    chemicals outgassing from new pillows I bought for my bed!  The sicker I felt the more time I spent in bed... it was debilitating.  In the summer months when the windows were open the concentration of chemicals dropped
    off and the symptoms were less severe.

    Once I figured it out I immediately threw the pillows away and started feeling relief within a few days. After that it was avoidance. New
    winter coats in department stores, new carpet in the university library,
    new shower curtains... they all made me ill. After maybe 5 years I
    didn't have any more problems.

    Sorry to hear about your experience. It's not so difficult to avoid
    someone else's new carpet, or "perfume" department. Mainly, I had
    to "clean up" my diet. No artificial this or that, no more fast food
    (maybe a Wendy's burger, but no fries from the same oil that they deep
    fry everything else in). This list is really too long to go into here,
    and as you say it was an arduous process of figuring out exactly what
    the list is.
    The kindest thing we can do it warn others. I had a favorite cologne
    for maybe 20 years, using a bit once or twice a week, and there came a
    day when I put some on and I almost couldn't breathe--I couldn't wash it
    off fast enough. That's how fast things change. My doctor says if I had
    lived 100 years ago, I would be unlikely to have any of the issues;
    he regards it as an "industrialization problem". Sensitivity issues
    seems to be increasing common, but the particular sensitivities people
    have vary--some people have issues with toner from copy machines...
    My wife buys "down" pillows, and I have never had an issue with them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to Bill on Wed Mar 2 14:19:51 2022
    On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 01:35:15 -0500, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

    On 3/1/2022 5:11 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "Bill" wrote in message news:Rh%SJ.50875$yi_7.50714@fx39.iad...

    On 2/27/2022 11:08 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:

    I routinely mix saw dust with yard waste, vegetable garden waste,
    kitchen waste, and fireplace ashes in my compost pile. I hit the
    whole thing with a small tiller to mix it up well and have had very
    good results in my vegetable garden. The key is to mix up the types
    of materials added to the pile. Straight saw dust works pretty good
    as mulch as it tends to form an almost solid sheet on the ground and
    gobbles up the nitrogen in the soil which keeps weeds from growing.
    I've spread a layer of saw dust along a fence line and then put a
    thin layer of cedar mulch over it for appearance.


    Aside from any useful properties that you may find it has, I would
    treat it like the poison that it is. I suspect it's not nearly as bad
    as your typical weedkiller, but it's not as "natural" as it may seem
    either. I'm probably biased because I'm allergic to it.

    In my case the vast majority of the sawdust is from solid wood with a
    relatively small amount coming from plywood (CDX, luan) so I don't worry
    about it.

    Also, the glues are well cured by the time it becomes part of the saw
    dust. As compared to the components being in a liquid state it will
    degrade slowly. As such it is highly unlikely it would ever come close
    to reaching a toxic concentration in the ground or water... The run off
    from nearby roads and parking lots concerns me more! The amount of
    kerosene, hydraulic fluid and diesel fuel that utility and DPW road
    crews lost on the road next to my property last year COULD kill ya!


    Possibly, but I think it's the Formaldehyde that gets me. I can get a
    medium reaction from just opening a door of some of the new cabinetry at
    a home shop (catching a wisp of "dust" in my face). I eventually got
    smarter and unbox stuff like speakers in my garage and leave them there
    for a few days to "out-gas" before bringing them into my home. FWIW, I
    get a similar reaction from those aerosol cans of compressed "air".
    After I figured out what was going on, I bought an electric solution.

    I hope that it's clear, I was in no way telling the OP what to do--I was
    just sharing my experience. For many people, the problem comes from >"over-exposure", so some mindfulness can't hurt. I've had the
    sensitivity since being a young teen, so I'm not sure if I was >"inadvertently" over-exposed.

    I believe formaldehyde use has been cut way back or eliminated since
    1990. It's not toxic in amounts found in outgassing building
    materials (the body breaks it down quickly) but allergies are
    certainly possible. I'm extremely allergic to creosote. Any use
    anywhere near me causes a very bad reaction so can believe a similar
    reaction to formaldehyde.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From meff@21:1/5 to John Grossbohlin on Sat Mar 5 00:45:38 2022
    On 2022-03-02, John Grossbohlin <nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:
    I am very familiar with this problem... Back in the early '90s it took me 2 1/2 years to figure out that I was suffering from what is known as multiple chemical sensitivity (environmental illness). Myriad doctors couldn't figure out why my ear drums were bulging and I felt like I had the flu for months
    at a time. I finally figured out it was from chemicals outgassing from new pillows I bought for my bed! The sicker I felt the more time I spent in bed... it was debilitating. In the summer months when the windows were open the concentration of chemicals dropped off and the symptoms were less
    severe.

    Chemical sensitivity runs in my family. VOC and other air quality
    sensors are a lifesaver for me and I can usually correlate my symptoms
    directly with the VOCs in the air. I've found the key is to keep the
    indoors well-ventilated at all times (I try to have positive pressure
    in the house whenever possible, but H/ERVs are good alternatives.) My
    mother is the first person in our family who ever pursued treatment
    for it and only after years of doctors visits did we figure it out.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill@21:1/5 to meff on Fri Mar 4 20:40:50 2022
    On 3/4/2022 7:45 PM, meff wrote:
    On 2022-03-02, John Grossbohlin <nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:
    I am very familiar with this problem... Back in the early '90s it took me 2 >> 1/2 years to figure out that I was suffering from what is known as multiple >> chemical sensitivity (environmental illness). Myriad doctors couldn't figure >> out why my ear drums were bulging and I felt like I had the flu for months >> at a time. I finally figured out it was from chemicals outgassing from new >> pillows I bought for my bed! The sicker I felt the more time I spent in
    bed... it was debilitating. In the summer months when the windows were open >> the concentration of chemicals dropped off and the symptoms were less
    severe.

    Chemical sensitivity runs in my family. VOC and other air quality
    sensors are a lifesaver for me and I can usually correlate my symptoms directly with the VOCs in the air.


    Gosh, I never heard of those. Could you please point me the right
    direction as to the type of air quality sensors that you have found
    useful?

    So that makes 3 of us (victims) right here! I think there are more
    people suffering from this than many wish to admit. Like you, it took
    me several years to isolate the problem. It's my hypothesis that the
    chemicals we're talking about aren't good for anybody, it just that
    different people have different tolerances to them. Corporations spend
    a lot of money lobbying for the "right" to use various chemicals, so
    it's not a simple matter to protect people.

    There is too much "fine print", much is hidden in the fine print (e.g. "artificial ingredients"), and much of the time there is None at all.
    My first encounter with "the problem" was when I encountered the soft
    drink "Tab" as a youngster. It being a new "diet drink", people debated
    it's merits/benefits/risks. It didn't take me long to figure out which
    side I was on, and my innocence was lost! ;)



    I've found the key is to keep the
    indoors well-ventilated at all times (I try to have positive pressure
    in the house whenever possible, but H/ERVs are good alternatives.) My
    mother is the first person in our family who ever pursued treatment
    for it and only after years of doctors visits did we figure it out.


    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From meff@21:1/5 to Bill on Sat Mar 5 01:56:39 2022
    On 2022-03-05, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:
    Gosh, I never heard of those. Could you please point me the right
    direction as to the type of air quality sensors that you have found
    useful?

    I'm a bit busy today but I'll try to get links going this
    weekend. It's also largely the reason I prefer to mix my own shellac
    finishes instead of buying the pre-mixed ones from hardware
    stores. Fewer VOCs give me much fewer headaches when waiting for the
    shellac to cure!


    So that makes 3 of us (victims) right here! I think there are more
    people suffering from this than many wish to admit. Like you, it took
    me several years to isolate the problem. It's my hypothesis that the chemicals we're talking about aren't good for anybody, it just that
    different people have different tolerances to them. Corporations spend
    a lot of money lobbying for the "right" to use various chemicals, so
    it's not a simple matter to protect people.

    It's because VOC-emitting glues tend to be cheap. Corporations lobby
    for the approval of these glues and compounds so that they can save on
    their goods at scale. I agree, I think it's high time that light be
    shed on this matter because I _doubt_ we're the only ones who
    experience this sensitivity. It runs so strong in my mother's side of
    the family that my sister, my uncle, my aunt, and I experience
    symptoms, though we're all sensitive to varying amounts. I also find
    that the more exposure to "clean" air I get (by going hiking in
    depopulated spots or camping or something) tends to make any flare-ups
    go away for a time. I went to a rural college and it was one of the
    best things for my health.

    There is too much "fine print", much is hidden in the fine print (e.g. "artificial ingredients"), and much of the time there is None at all.
    My first encounter with "the problem" was when I encountered the soft
    drink "Tab" as a youngster. It being a new "diet drink", people debated
    it's merits/benefits/risks. It didn't take me long to figure out which
    side I was on, and my innocence was lost! ;)

    Ah you're talking about aspartame sensitivity, which is another in
    this constellation of sensitivity issues :) I don't suffer from it but
    others in my family do. They tend to get headaches or feel nauseous
    from the consumption of aspartame. I'm unaffected, at least so far.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 4 22:54:56 2022
    On Sat, 5 Mar 2022 00:45:38 -0000 (UTC), meff <email@example.com>
    wrote:

    On 2022-03-02, John Grossbohlin <nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote: >> I am very familiar with this problem... Back in the early '90s it took me 2 >> 1/2 years to figure out that I was suffering from what is known as multiple >> chemical sensitivity (environmental illness). Myriad doctors couldn't figure >> out why my ear drums were bulging and I felt like I had the flu for months >> at a time. I finally figured out it was from chemicals outgassing from new >> pillows I bought for my bed! The sicker I felt the more time I spent in
    bed... it was debilitating. In the summer months when the windows were open >> the concentration of chemicals dropped off and the symptoms were less
    severe.

    Chemical sensitivity runs in my family. VOC and other air quality
    sensors are a lifesaver for me and I can usually correlate my symptoms >directly with the VOCs in the air. I've found the key is to keep the
    indoors well-ventilated at all times (I try to have positive pressure
    in the house whenever possible, but H/ERVs are good alternatives.) My
    mother is the first person in our family who ever pursued treatment
    for it and only after years of doctors visits did we figure it out.

    I understand that Rabbit Air filters are very good. Positive pressure
    can get very expensive.

    <https://www.rabbitair.com/pages/minusa2-air-purifier>

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill@21:1/5 to meff on Sat Mar 5 00:25:48 2022
    On 3/4/2022 8:56 PM, meff wrote:
    On 2022-03-05, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:
    Gosh, I never heard of those. Could you please point me the right
    direction as to the type of air quality sensors that you have found
    useful?

    I'm a bit busy today but I'll try to get links going this
    weekend.

    Thank you!

    It's also largely the reason I prefer to mix my own shellac
    finishes instead of buying the pre-mixed ones from hardware
    stores. Fewer VOCs give me much fewer headaches when waiting for the
    shellac to cure!

    I shop "low VOC" too, when possible, just to err on the side of caution.
    At least availability seems to be increasing. Similarly, more grocery
    stores are providing more "organic" choices, and "minimally processed"
    meat choices. That confirms that the demand is there--or they simply
    wouldn't do it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to meff on Sat Mar 5 16:02:03 2022
    meff <email@example.com> writes:
    On 2022-03-05, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:
    Gosh, I never heard of those. Could you please point me the right
    direction as to the type of air quality sensors that you have found
    useful?

    I'm a bit busy today but I'll try to get links going this
    weekend. It's also largely the reason I prefer to mix my own shellac
    finishes instead of buying the pre-mixed ones from hardware
    stores. Fewer VOCs give me much fewer headaches when waiting for the
    shellac to cure!

    In both cases, the VOC is alcohol, whether you mix it yourself
    or buy pre-mixed (e.g bulls-eye).

    I prefer to mix my own to get the cut that I want from the start,
    but I see no difference in VOC level between doing that (assuming
    one can even find fresh flakes anymore) and picking up a can of
    sanding sealer or blonde shellac.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Grossbohlin@21:1/5 to meff on Mon Mar 7 13:41:39 2022
    "meff" wrote in message news:svubri$5dh$4@dont-email.me...

    On 2022-03-02, John Grossbohlin <nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net>
    wrote:
    I am very familiar with this problem... Back in the early '90s it took me
    2
    1/2 years to figure out that I was suffering from what is known as
    multiple
    chemical sensitivity (environmental illness). Myriad doctors couldn't
    figure
    out why my ear drums were bulging and I felt like I had the flu for
    months
    at a time. I finally figured out it was from chemicals outgassing from
    new
    pillows I bought for my bed! The sicker I felt the more time I spent in
    bed... it was debilitating. In the summer months when the windows were
    open
    the concentration of chemicals dropped off and the symptoms were less
    severe.

    Chemical sensitivity runs in my family. VOC and other air quality
    sensors are a lifesaver for me and I can usually correlate my symptoms >directly with the VOCs in the air. I've found the key is to keep the
    indoors well-ventilated at all times (I try to have positive pressure
    in the house whenever possible, but H/ERVs are good alternatives.) My
    mother is the first person in our family who ever pursued treatment
    for it and only after years of doctors visits did we figure it out.

    A recurring theme I've experienced, and seen with others, is that the
    medical profession doesn't have chemical sensitivity training and the appropriate responding scripts in their bag of tricks. The only reason I
    found relief was by not giving up and by talking to a diverse set of people. The key in my case was a conversation I had with a director of disabled
    student services for a university. I figured that in her job she had
    probably encountered a very diverse set of issues among students. After chatting for a bit she went to a file cabinet and came back with a manila folder that contained some journal articles. She didn't say anything beyond "Read these and we can chat again..."

    By the time I finished the second article I had zeroed in on the pillows... When I chatted with her again it turned out that she had the same problems
    and had the same experience with the medical profession--after a couple
    years they imply it's all in your head, it's not real! Once I had that lead
    I dug deeper and found that there was a somewhat fringe literature on the topic. Skip ahead 30 years to the present and there is a wider understanding
    of the issue and a larger literature. The mold, radon and Chinese drywall debacles put a spot light on indoor air pollution but you're still not
    likely to find it through your doctor.

    In the director's case she and her husband built a new house that had no
    sheet goods or paint. It was all solid wood construction with unpainted
    plaster walls and ceilings (over lathe as I recall). Solid wood sheathing, solid wood cabinets, hardwood floors, ceramic tile, air-to-air heater
    exchanger fresh air intake, etc. Protective finishes were carefully selected...

    I mentioned my issues to an environmental engineer who used to focus on
    radon gas testing and remediation. The last I spoke with him he was working
    on protocols for the NYC library system in response to COVID. He was very
    aware of indoor air pollution problems... An environmental scientist I know was hired by the cruise ship industry to deal with the Legionnaire's Disease outbreaks on the cruise ships. In the case of Legionnaire's... that boiled
    down to the lack of maintenance resulting from fraudulent recording keeping--crew were tasked with taking monitoring readings of various systems
    on the ships and they weren't actually doing so. Rather they were simply
    making entries in logs that were within acceptable ranges. This problem was found to be wide spread and not just on a few ships. Those two guys are not physicians... they don’t see human patients, they see buildings, ships and systems as their subjects. More general communication is needed!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.ne on Mon Mar 7 18:56:50 2022
    On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 13:41:39 -0500, "John Grossbohlin" <nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:

    "meff" wrote in message news:svubri$5dh$4@dont-email.me...

    On 2022-03-02, John Grossbohlin <nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> >>wrote:
    I am very familiar with this problem... Back in the early '90s it took me >>> 2
    1/2 years to figure out that I was suffering from what is known as
    multiple
    chemical sensitivity (environmental illness). Myriad doctors couldn't
    figure
    out why my ear drums were bulging and I felt like I had the flu for
    months
    at a time. I finally figured out it was from chemicals outgassing from
    new
    pillows I bought for my bed! The sicker I felt the more time I spent in >>> bed... it was debilitating. In the summer months when the windows were
    open
    the concentration of chemicals dropped off and the symptoms were less
    severe.

    Chemical sensitivity runs in my family. VOC and other air quality
    sensors are a lifesaver for me and I can usually correlate my symptoms >>directly with the VOCs in the air. I've found the key is to keep the >>indoors well-ventilated at all times (I try to have positive pressure
    in the house whenever possible, but H/ERVs are good alternatives.) My >>mother is the first person in our family who ever pursued treatment
    for it and only after years of doctors visits did we figure it out.

    A recurring theme I've experienced, and seen with others, is that the
    medical profession doesn't have chemical sensitivity training and the >appropriate responding scripts in their bag of tricks. The only reason I >found relief was by not giving up and by talking to a diverse set of people. >The key in my case was a conversation I had with a director of disabled >student services for a university. I figured that in her job she had
    probably encountered a very diverse set of issues among students. After >chatting for a bit she went to a file cabinet and came back with a manila >folder that contained some journal articles. She didn't say anything beyond >"Read these and we can chat again..."

    By the time I finished the second article I had zeroed in on the pillows... >When I chatted with her again it turned out that she had the same problems >and had the same experience with the medical profession--after a couple
    years they imply it's all in your head, it's not real! Once I had that lead >I dug deeper and found that there was a somewhat fringe literature on the >topic. Skip ahead 30 years to the present and there is a wider understanding >of the issue and a larger literature. The mold, radon and Chinese drywall >debacles put a spot light on indoor air pollution but you're still not
    likely to find it through your doctor.

    In the director's case she and her husband built a new house that had no >sheet goods or paint. It was all solid wood construction with unpainted >plaster walls and ceilings (over lathe as I recall). Solid wood sheathing, >solid wood cabinets, hardwood floors, ceramic tile, air-to-air heater >exchanger fresh air intake, etc. Protective finishes were carefully >selected...

    I mentioned my issues to an environmental engineer who used to focus on
    radon gas testing and remediation. The last I spoke with him he was working >on protocols for the NYC library system in response to COVID. He was very >aware of indoor air pollution problems... An environmental scientist I know >was hired by the cruise ship industry to deal with the Legionnaire's Disease >outbreaks on the cruise ships. In the case of Legionnaire's... that boiled >down to the lack of maintenance resulting from fraudulent recording >keeping--crew were tasked with taking monitoring readings of various systems >on the ships and they weren't actually doing so. Rather they were simply >making entries in logs that were within acceptable ranges. This problem was >found to be wide spread and not just on a few ships. Those two guys are not >physicians... they dont see human patients, they see buildings, ships and >systems as their subjects. More general communication is needed!

    There is certainly a lot that's unknown an much of it likely won't.
    Not every reaction can be. There is also a thing called the "nocebo
    effect". And along the same lines, the myriad examples of mass
    hysteria.

    Mold is easily and routinely detected. Radon doesn't cause any
    immediate reaction so of course it was hard to find. Chinese drywall,
    well there is that thing about melamine pet food, too.

    If you want to go down the rabbit hole further... "Bottle of Lies". <https://www.amazon.com/s?k=bottle+of+lies&i=stripbooks&crid=1L2939F112EPM&sprefix=bottle+of+lies%2Cstripbooks%2C284&ref=nb_sb_ss_c_2_14_ts-doa-p>

    Then there was Alar. BPA. Aspartame, Power line EMI, and thousands
    more frauds foisted on the public.

    This subject is a lot more complicated than doctors not caring to find
    the cause of your distress. If they could, is it a justifiable use of
    their time?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill@21:1/5 to John Grossbohlin on Tue Mar 8 01:11:02 2022
    On 3/7/2022 1:41 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "meff"  wrote in message news:svubri$5dh$4@dont-email.me...

    On 2022-03-02, John Grossbohlin <nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net>
    wrote:
    I am very familiar with this problem... Back in the early '90s it
    took me 2
    1/2 years to figure out that I was suffering from what is known as
    multiple
    chemical sensitivity (environmental illness). Myriad doctors couldn't
    figure
    out why my ear drums were bulging and I felt like I had the flu for
    months
    at a time. I finally figured out it was from chemicals outgassing
    from new
    pillows I bought for my bed!  The sicker I felt the more time I spent in >>> bed... it was debilitating.  In the summer months when the windows
    were open
    the concentration of chemicals dropped off and the symptoms were less
    severe.

    Chemical sensitivity runs in my family. VOC and other air quality
    sensors are a lifesaver for me and I can usually correlate my symptoms
    directly with the VOCs in the air. I've found the key is to keep the
    indoors well-ventilated at all times (I try to have positive pressure
    in the house whenever possible, but H/ERVs are good alternatives.) My
    mother is the first person in our family who ever pursued treatment
    for it and only after years of doctors visits did we figure it out.

    A recurring theme I've experienced, and seen with others, is that the
    medical profession doesn't have chemical sensitivity training and the appropriate responding scripts in their bag of tricks.

    I agree with you 100% (and more!). I visited an allergist who said he
    couldn't really help me much, as I wasn't suffering from allergies "like
    from pet hair or food", and since I basically already aware of many of
    my sensitivities. He told me they weren't allergies, instead they were
    chemical sensitivities. He encouraged me to "experiment a little"--but
    the people at the ER told me to not do so (anymore). I had at least
    three related visits there over the course of a couple decades.
    It took me at least a couple of years to get appropriate help from my doctor...the problem was that I looked "fine" when I visited the
    doctor..but ultimately I think it was my "weight loss" which seemed to
    add more authority to my words. Anyway, I hope this is a contribution
    to creating "awareness" no matter how small it may be.




    The only reason I
    found relief was by not giving up and by talking to a diverse set of
    people. The key in my case was a conversation I had with a director of disabled student services for a university. I figured that in her job
    she had probably encountered a very diverse set of issues among
    students. After chatting for a bit she went to a file cabinet and came
    back with a manila folder that contained some journal articles. She
    didn't say anything beyond "Read these and we can chat again..."

    By the time I finished the second article I had zeroed in on the
    pillows... When I chatted with her again it turned out that she had the
    same problems and had the same experience with the medical
    profession--after a couple years they imply it's all in your head, it's
    not real!  Once I had that lead I dug deeper and found that there was a somewhat fringe literature on the topic. Skip ahead 30 years to the
    present and there is a wider understanding of the issue and a larger literature. The mold, radon and Chinese drywall debacles put a spot
    light on indoor air pollution but you're still not likely to find it
    through your doctor.

    In the director's case she and her husband built a new house that had no sheet goods or paint. It was all solid wood construction with unpainted plaster walls and ceilings (over lathe as I recall). Solid wood
    sheathing, solid wood cabinets, hardwood floors, ceramic tile,
    air-to-air heater exchanger fresh air intake, etc.  Protective finishes
    were carefully selected...

    I mentioned my issues to an environmental engineer who used to focus on
    radon gas testing and remediation. The last I spoke with him he was
    working on protocols for the NYC library system in response to COVID. He
    was very aware of indoor air pollution problems...  An environmental scientist I know was hired by the cruise ship industry to deal with the Legionnaire's Disease outbreaks on the cruise ships. In the case of Legionnaire's... that boiled down to the lack of maintenance resulting
    from fraudulent recording keeping--crew were tasked with taking
    monitoring readings of various systems on the ships and they weren't
    actually doing so. Rather they were simply making entries in logs that
    were within acceptable ranges. This problem was found to be wide spread
    and not just on a few ships.  Those two guys are not physicians... they don’t see human patients, they see buildings, ships and systems as their subjects.  More general communication is needed!









    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Grossbohlin@21:1/5 to All on Tue Mar 8 11:47:11 2022
    wrote in message news:375d2hht461n4mjt4doamjhrc1t79g98co@4ax.com...

    On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 13:41:39 -0500, "John Grossbohlin" ><nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:

    By the time I finished the second article I had zeroed in on the
    pillows...
    When I chatted with her again it turned out that she had the same problems >>and had the same experience with the medical profession--after a couple >>years they imply it's all in your head, it's not real! Once I had that >>lead
    I dug deeper and found that there was a somewhat fringe literature on the >>topic. Skip ahead 30 years to the present and there is a wider >>understanding
    of the issue and a larger literature. The mold, radon and Chinese drywall >>debacles put a spot light on indoor air pollution but you're still not >>likely to find it through your doctor.


    This subject is a lot more complicated than doctors not caring to find
    the cause of your distress. If they could, is it a justifiable use of
    their time?

    It's not an issue of doctors not caring, it's a training issue and what
    scripts they follow based on the symptoms they see. "Ear infection... that's what you have and here are scripts (as in prescriptions) for antibiotics."
    What they missed was there was no inflammation and it was both ears... clues that should have led them to dig deeper but their scripts never allowed for that and I was too naive at the time.

    "Scripts" in this case refers to the framework for the action to take based
    on the symptoms. There are lots of scripts out there and an industry
    promoting them... For example, https://www.vidanthealth.com/patients-and-families/advance-care-planning/conversation-scripts-for-providers/
    So yes, it's a justifiable pursuit to not blindly follow scripts and to take other possibilities into account, particularly with the ever growing
    incidences of toxic substances making people ill.

    My PCP has been in practice for about 13 years and we have had some
    interesting conversations about the industry. I spent over 20 years in
    quality at health insurance companies and have been witness to plenty of incompetence, waste, fraud and neglect and have seen the disciplinary
    records of many providers. I've fired some of my personal providers and had them flagged for intentional billing fraud and up-coding. There is a home health agency in FL with a significant ding on their public record as I
    helped a friend file a claim against them with the regulatory agency... a
    claim that was substantiated. That is not to say all providers are bad or thieves but it is to say that you, as a consumer, need to be informed. Not informed like having every rare disease you find on Web MD... but informed
    as to process and taking some responsibility for your own health. ;~)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.ne on Thu Mar 10 13:26:16 2022
    On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:47:11 -0500, "John Grossbohlin" <nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:

    wrote in message news:375d2hht461n4mjt4doamjhrc1t79g98co@4ax.com...

    On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 13:41:39 -0500, "John Grossbohlin" >><nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:

    By the time I finished the second article I had zeroed in on the >>>pillows...
    When I chatted with her again it turned out that she had the same problems >>>and had the same experience with the medical profession--after a couple >>>years they imply it's all in your head, it's not real! Once I had that >>>lead
    I dug deeper and found that there was a somewhat fringe literature on the >>>topic. Skip ahead 30 years to the present and there is a wider >>>understanding
    of the issue and a larger literature. The mold, radon and Chinese drywall >>>debacles put a spot light on indoor air pollution but you're still not >>>likely to find it through your doctor.


    This subject is a lot more complicated than doctors not caring to find
    the cause of your distress. If they could, is it a justifiable use of
    their time?

    It's not an issue of doctors not caring, it's a training issue and what >scripts they follow based on the symptoms they see. "Ear infection... that's >what you have and here are scripts (as in prescriptions) for antibiotics." >What they missed was there was no inflammation and it was both ears... clues >that should have led them to dig deeper but their scripts never allowed for >that and I was too naive at the time.

    SO you think they're taught that ear infections don't cause
    inflammation? That they're taught to prescribe antibiotics for a
    sprained ankle? With the concern with overuse of antibiotics, I highly
    doubt it.

    "Scripts" in this case refers to the framework for the action to take based >on the symptoms. There are lots of scripts out there and an industry >promoting them... For example, >https://www.vidanthealth.com/patients-and-families/advance-care-planning/conversation-scripts-for-providers/
    So yes, it's a justifiable pursuit to not blindly follow scripts and to take >other possibilities into account, particularly with the ever growing >incidences of toxic substances making people ill.

    Time. The "script" is correct 99% of the time. Like it or not, much
    medicine is an assembly line. Specialists usually have time (and
    resources) to isolate things a little more but ,yes, the initial
    diagnosis has to be right to find the right specialist. Or (as I
    found) that one specialist assumes/rejects symptoms that aren't
    consistent with their specialty. My cardiologist missed a, related but
    not immediately explicable, neurological issue.

    No, doctors aren't perfect (they're only licensed to _practice_)

    My PCP has been in practice for about 13 years and we have had some >interesting conversations about the industry. I spent over 20 years in >quality at health insurance companies and have been witness to plenty of >incompetence, waste, fraud and neglect and have seen the disciplinary
    records of many providers. I've fired some of my personal providers and had >them flagged for intentional billing fraud and up-coding. There is a home >health agency in FL with a significant ding on their public record as I >helped a friend file a claim against them with the regulatory agency... a >claim that was substantiated. That is not to say all providers are bad or >thieves but it is to say that you, as a consumer, need to be informed. Not >informed like having every rare disease you find on Web MD... but informed
    as to process and taking some responsibility for your own health. ;~)

    Fraud, incompetence, and malpractice have nothing to do with your
    original subject.

    BTW, with the exception of one PCP, all of my doctors have been top
    notch. I have a dozen, or more, appointments with five or six
    specialists every year. I just picked up two more for another dozen
    visits but I hope it's temporary. While I've found almost universal
    competence in physicians, I've found the opposite with the
    administrators. They're almost wholly incompetent.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Grossbohlin@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 11 14:33:31 2022
    wrote in message news:0cfk2h5mf99r0olujrt5kand6ke1krou24@4ax.com...

    On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:47:11 -0500, "John Grossbohlin" ><nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:

    wrote in message news:375d2hht461n4mjt4doamjhrc1t79g98co@4ax.com...

    On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 13:41:39 -0500, "John Grossbohlin" >>><nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:

    By the time I finished the second article I had zeroed in on the >>>>pillows...
    When I chatted with her again it turned out that she had the same >>>>problems
    and had the same experience with the medical profession--after a couple >>>>years they imply it's all in your head, it's not real! Once I had that >>>>lead
    I dug deeper and found that there was a somewhat fringe literature on >>>>the
    topic. Skip ahead 30 years to the present and there is a wider > >>>>understanding
    of the issue and a larger literature. The mold, radon and Chinese >>>>drywall
    debacles put a spot light on indoor air pollution but you're still not >>>>likely to find it through your doctor.


    This subject is a lot more complicated than doctors not caring to find >>>the cause of your distress. If they could, is it a justifiable use of >>>their time?

    It's not an issue of doctors not caring, it's a training issue and what >>scripts they follow based on the symptoms they see. "Ear infection... >>that's
    what you have and here are scripts (as in prescriptions) for antibiotics." >>What they missed was there was no inflammation and it was both ears... >>clues
    that should have led them to dig deeper but their scripts never allowed
    for
    that and I was too naive at the time.

    SO you think they're taught that ear infections don't cause
    inflammation? That they're taught to prescribe antibiotics for a
    sprained ankle? With the concern with overuse of antibiotics, I highly
    doubt it.

    I have to believe you misread what I wrote...

    SNIP

    BTW, with the exception of one PCP, all of my doctors have been top
    notch. I have a dozen, or more, appointments with five or six
    specialists every year. I just picked up two more for another dozen
    visits but I hope it's temporary. While I've found almost universal >competence in physicians, I've found the opposite with the
    administrators. They're almost wholly incompetent.

    From a Doctor/Patient standpoint you apparently had what you consider to be good experiences. That is good.

    From my health insurance quality, provider credentialing, accreditation and regulatory compliance experience, and personal relationships with providers outside of a Doctor/Patient relationship, I have a different world view of
    what is going on. Having a girlfriend who has a background as a professor/department chair/dean in health sciences adds to it. I carry my professional and personal baggage with me in my personal Doctor/Patient experiences and quite frankly, it serves me well as I can have good conversations and I can tell when there is something wrong on the business side. I'm also very leery of what goes in "health records" due to the pay
    for service model combined with varying amounts of fraud, waste and abuse as they distort the true picture of someone's health for the sake of revenue.

    What Adam Smith wrote nearly 250 years ago still holds today... even in medicine: "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker, that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own
    interest."

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)