• Harbor Freight (arrogance)

    From Johnny Templeton@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 14 11:49:58 2022
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and
    independent.

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  • From Leon@21:1/5 to Johnny Templeton on Tue Feb 15 18:08:05 2022
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and
    independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than that?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill@21:1/5 to Leon on Wed Feb 16 09:10:11 2022
    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will not
    take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than that?

    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work gloves
    for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20. HF has also taken
    returns from me even though it was technically passed the return date.
    They also have "blue tarps" in every size imaginable. As has been said
    many times before, you just have to be selective about what you buy
    there. I don't think it's fair to expect them to provide extra customer service based upon their profit margins. They make their money on
    volume, not having extra personal around to provide extra customer
    service. They are what they are and you either take it or leave it.

    In December, I wanted to buy (and am still on the lookout for) a "hot
    dog compresssor" from HF that was discontinued and the nearest one
    in stock was at a store 70 miles away from me. I didn't like reading
    that they would not ship it to a store closer to me, but I understood.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Bill on Wed Feb 16 08:53:52 2022
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 9:10:16 AM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not
    take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than that?
    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work gloves
    for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20. HF has also taken returns from me even though it was technically passed the return date.
    They also have "blue tarps" in every size imaginable. As has been said
    many times before, you just have to be selective about what you buy
    there. I don't think it's fair to expect them to provide extra customer service based upon their profit margins. They make their money on
    volume, not having extra personal around to provide extra customer
    service. They are what they are and you either take it or leave it.

    In December, I wanted to buy (and am still on the lookout for) a "hot
    dog compresssor" from HF that was discontinued and the nearest one
    in stock was at a store 70 miles away from me. I didn't like reading
    that they would not ship it to a store closer to me, but I understood.

    re: "hot dog compressor"

    The only hot dogs that need compressing are Zweigles. Way too thick
    for my liking.

    Give me a good old NYC Dirty Water Hot Dog any day of the week.
    Red onions please.

    https://i.imgur.com/w4sgWMN.jpg

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Wed Feb 16 12:44:32 2022
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 09:38:28 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 12:18:29 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 09:10:11 -0500, Bill <none...@att.net> wrote:

    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not
    take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than that? >> >
    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work gloves
    for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20. HF has also taken
    returns from me even though it was technically passed the return date.
    They also have "blue tarps" in every size imaginable. As has been said
    many times before, you just have to be selective about what you buy
    there. I don't think it's fair to expect them to provide extra customer
    service based upon their profit margins. They make their money on
    volume, not having extra personal around to provide extra customer
    service. They are what they are and you either take it or leave it.
    I certainly wouldn't say "very good". Cheap but never "very good". I
    used to buy nitrile gloves there but post covid there are places no
    more expensive. Expensive but no more so.
    In December, I wanted to buy (and am still on the lookout for) a "hot
    dog compresssor" from HF that was discontinued and the nearest one
    in stock was at a store 70 miles away from me. I didn't like reading
    that they would not ship it to a store closer to me, but I understood.

    Why would you never say "very good"?

    Because nothing is "very good". OK, maybe.

    What's not "very good" about their nitrile gloves, compared to others?

    Not everything in the world can be "very good". "OK" or "good",
    maybe. There is nothing any better about them than any other. I'm
    sure they aren't "surgical", not that they need to be,

    What's not "very good" about their Anti-Fatigue Foam Mats? (They have
    many uses other than standing on. I use them to protect stuff, such as the >interior of my vehicles when I'm hauling stuff or when I need a small
    piece of padding to absorb vibrations or prevent scratching.)
    Again, OK but nothing to write home about.

    What's not "very good" about their zip ties, e-track accessories, moving >blankets, dollies, etc.?

    The operative word here is "very".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to k...@notreal.com on Wed Feb 16 09:38:28 2022
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 12:18:29 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 09:10:11 -0500, Bill <none...@att.net> wrote:

    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not
    take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than that?

    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work gloves
    for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20. HF has also taken >returns from me even though it was technically passed the return date.
    They also have "blue tarps" in every size imaginable. As has been said
    many times before, you just have to be selective about what you buy
    there. I don't think it's fair to expect them to provide extra customer >service based upon their profit margins. They make their money on
    volume, not having extra personal around to provide extra customer
    service. They are what they are and you either take it or leave it.
    I certainly wouldn't say "very good". Cheap but never "very good". I
    used to buy nitrile gloves there but post covid there are places no
    more expensive. Expensive but no more so.
    In December, I wanted to buy (and am still on the lookout for) a "hot
    dog compresssor" from HF that was discontinued and the nearest one
    in stock was at a store 70 miles away from me. I didn't like reading
    that they would not ship it to a store closer to me, but I understood.

    Why would you never say "very good"?

    What's not "very good" about their nitrile gloves, compared to others?

    What's not "very good" about their Anti-Fatigue Foam Mats? (They have
    many uses other than standing on. I use them to protect stuff, such as the interior of my vehicles when I'm hauling stuff or when I need a small
    piece of padding to absorb vibrations or prevent scratching.)

    What's not "very good" about their zip ties, e-track accessories, moving blankets, dollies, etc.?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From 10x@21:1/5 to Bill on Wed Feb 16 12:26:05 2022
    On Feb 16, 2022, Bill wrote
    (in article <8B7PJ.2793$3Pje.1685@fx09.iad>):

    As has been said many times before, you just have to be selective about what you buy
    there.

    Agree 100%

    Joe

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to Bill on Wed Feb 16 12:18:23 2022
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 09:10:11 -0500, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not
    take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than that?

    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work gloves
    for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20. HF has also taken >returns from me even though it was technically passed the return date.
    They also have "blue tarps" in every size imaginable. As has been said
    many times before, you just have to be selective about what you buy
    there. I don't think it's fair to expect them to provide extra customer >service based upon their profit margins. They make their money on
    volume, not having extra personal around to provide extra customer
    service. They are what they are and you either take it or leave it.

    I certainly wouldn't say "very good". Cheap but never "very good". I
    used to buy nitrile gloves there but post covid there are places no
    more expensive. Expensive but no more so.

    In December, I wanted to buy (and am still on the lookout for) a "hot
    dog compresssor" from HF that was discontinued and the nearest one
    in stock was at a store 70 miles away from me. I didn't like reading
    that they would not ship it to a store closer to me, but I understood.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to k...@notreal.com on Wed Feb 16 10:30:17 2022
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 12:44:37 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 09:38:28 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 12:18:29 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 09:10:11 -0500, Bill <none...@att.net> wrote:

    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not
    take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than that?

    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work gloves >> >for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20. HF has also taken
    returns from me even though it was technically passed the return date.
    They also have "blue tarps" in every size imaginable. As has been said
    many times before, you just have to be selective about what you buy
    there. I don't think it's fair to expect them to provide extra customer >> >service based upon their profit margins. They make their money on
    volume, not having extra personal around to provide extra customer
    service. They are what they are and you either take it or leave it.
    I certainly wouldn't say "very good". Cheap but never "very good". I
    used to buy nitrile gloves there but post covid there are places no
    more expensive. Expensive but no more so.
    In December, I wanted to buy (and am still on the lookout for) a "hot
    dog compresssor" from HF that was discontinued and the nearest one
    in stock was at a store 70 miles away from me. I didn't like reading
    that they would not ship it to a store closer to me, but I understood.

    Why would you never say "very good"?
    Because nothing is "very good". OK, maybe.
    What's not "very good" about their nitrile gloves, compared to others?
    Not everything in the world can be "very good". "OK" or "good",
    maybe. There is nothing any better about them than any other. I'm
    sure they aren't "surgical", not that they need to be,
    What's not "very good" about their Anti-Fatigue Foam Mats? (They have
    many uses other than standing on. I use them to protect stuff, such as the >interior of my vehicles when I'm hauling stuff or when I need a small
    piece of padding to absorb vibrations or prevent scratching.)
    Again, OK but nothing to write home about.
    What's not "very good" about their zip ties, e-track accessories, moving >blankets, dollies, etc.?
    The operative word here is "very".

    First you say 'Because nothing is "very good"'

    Then you say 'Not everything in the world can be "very good".'

    "Not everything" leaves room for something to be "very good" yet
    you said that *nothing* is very good.

    Please explain.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 16 14:59:49 2022
    On 2/16/2022 1:30 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 12:44:37 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 09:38:28 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 12:18:29 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 09:10:11 -0500, Bill <none...@att.net> wrote:

    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer >>>>>>> service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not >>>>>>> take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two >>>>>>> stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than that? >>>>>
    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work gloves >>>>> for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20. HF has also taken >>>>> returns from me even though it was technically passed the return date. >>>>> They also have "blue tarps" in every size imaginable. As has been said >>>>> many times before, you just have to be selective about what you buy
    there. I don't think it's fair to expect them to provide extra customer >>>>> service based upon their profit margins. They make their money on
    volume, not having extra personal around to provide extra customer
    service. They are what they are and you either take it or leave it.
    I certainly wouldn't say "very good". Cheap but never "very good". I
    used to buy nitrile gloves there but post covid there are places no
    more expensive. Expensive but no more so.
    In December, I wanted to buy (and am still on the lookout for) a "hot >>>>> dog compresssor" from HF that was discontinued and the nearest one
    in stock was at a store 70 miles away from me. I didn't like reading >>>>> that they would not ship it to a store closer to me, but I understood. >>>
    Why would you never say "very good"?
    Because nothing is "very good". OK, maybe.
    What's not "very good" about their nitrile gloves, compared to others?
    Not everything in the world can be "very good". "OK" or "good",
    maybe. There is nothing any better about them than any other. I'm
    sure they aren't "surgical", not that they need to be,
    What's not "very good" about their Anti-Fatigue Foam Mats? (They have
    many uses other than standing on. I use them to protect stuff, such as the >>> interior of my vehicles when I'm hauling stuff or when I need a small
    piece of padding to absorb vibrations or prevent scratching.)
    Again, OK but nothing to write home about.
    What's not "very good" about their zip ties, e-track accessories, moving >>> blankets, dollies, etc.?
    The operative word here is "very".

    First you say 'Because nothing is "very good"'

    Then you say 'Not everything in the world can be "very good".'

    "Not everything" leaves room for something to be "very good" yet
    you said that *nothing* is very good.

    Please explain.


    As the person who first typed the word "very", I apologize for doing so. Honestly, I didn't really mean it.
    Here: Some of their stuff is truly good or at least quite acceptable. %-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to Bill on Wed Feb 16 14:01:32 2022
    On 2/16/2022 8:10 AM, Bill wrote:
    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will not
    take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than that?

    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work gloves
    for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20.

    Sooo why would one need 6 pair of gloves if one pair is very good?


    HF has also taken
    returns from me even though it was technically passed the return date.

    That has nothing to do with the quality of the products that they sell.
    It has almost always been the policy of some stores to take back
    merchandise when it had issues, regardless of when it was bought.


    They also have "blue tarps" in every size imaginable. As has been said
    many times before, you just have to be selective about what you buy
    there.

    I have found better tarps through Amazon for less.

    I don't think it's fair to expect them to provide extra customer
    service based upon their profit margins.

    I do not believe that the OP was looking for more customer service, so
    much as a courteous customer service. And with that I again say, bottom
    of the barrel products, did you really expect better than that.



    They make their money on
    volume, not having extra personal around to provide extra customer
    service. They are what they are and you either take it or leave it.

    Well I can assure you that most of this merchandise has higher profit
    margins that places like HD, or Lowes. Cheap Chinese merchandise is
    shockingly inexpensive for the retailer. Your gloves likely cost HF 10
    ~20 cents. Another example, Rockler sells a blue anodized set of clamps
    for holding a sacrificial fence to a TS fence. A Rockler retail owner
    told me that those clamps retailed for about $15, 14 years ago. He was
    paying less that 50 cents.



    In December, I wanted to buy (and am still on the lookout for) a "hot
    dog compresssor" from HF that was discontinued and the nearest one
    in stock was at a store 70 miles away from me. I didn't like reading
    that they would not ship it to a store closer to me, but I understood.

    And again I say...

    Harbor freight saves you money on items that you are likely to only use
    a few times.

    But having said that they do seem to be stepping up their game on some
    of their lines of power tools.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill@21:1/5 to Leon on Wed Feb 16 15:16:39 2022
    On 2/16/2022 3:01 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/16/2022 8:10 AM, Bill wrote:
    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will not
    take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than that?

    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work
    gloves for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20.

    Sooo why would one need 6 pair of gloves if one pair is very good?

    You must not have ever played Poker... ; )

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to Bill on Wed Feb 16 14:54:45 2022
    On 2/16/2022 2:16 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 2/16/2022 3:01 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/16/2022 8:10 AM, Bill wrote:
    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will not >>>>> take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than
    that?

    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work
    gloves for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20.

    Sooo why would one need 6 pair of gloves if one pair is very good?

    You must not have ever played Poker...  ; )


    What poker hand has 6 pair and or 12 cards? ;~)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Markem618@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 16 15:31:24 2022
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 14:54:45 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/16/2022 2:16 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 2/16/2022 3:01 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/16/2022 8:10 AM, Bill wrote:
    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not >>>>>> take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than
    that?

    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work
    gloves for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20.

    Sooo why would one need 6 pair of gloves if one pair is very good?

    You must not have ever played Poker... ; )


    What poker hand has 6 pair and or 12 cards? ;~)

    The guy's who is about to get beat to crap? ; O

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Leon on Wed Feb 16 13:21:12 2022
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 3:01:43 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 2/16/2022 8:10 AM, Bill wrote:
    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not
    take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than that?

    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work gloves
    for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20.
    Sooo why would one need 6 pair of gloves if one pair is very good?

    1 - Vehicle
    2 - Shop
    3 - Other vehicle
    4 - Garage
    5 - Another for the vehicle because you forgot about the pair under the seat.
    6 - SWMBO's garden shed

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Wed Feb 16 17:37:17 2022
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 10:30:17 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 12:44:37 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >> On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 09:38:28 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 12:18:29 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 09:10:11 -0500, Bill <none...@att.net> wrote:

    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not
    take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than that?

    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work gloves >> >> >for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20. HF has also taken >> >> >returns from me even though it was technically passed the return date. >> >> >They also have "blue tarps" in every size imaginable. As has been said >> >> >many times before, you just have to be selective about what you buy
    there. I don't think it's fair to expect them to provide extra customer >> >> >service based upon their profit margins. They make their money on
    volume, not having extra personal around to provide extra customer
    service. They are what they are and you either take it or leave it.
    I certainly wouldn't say "very good". Cheap but never "very good". I
    used to buy nitrile gloves there but post covid there are places no
    more expensive. Expensive but no more so.
    In December, I wanted to buy (and am still on the lookout for) a "hot
    dog compresssor" from HF that was discontinued and the nearest one
    in stock was at a store 70 miles away from me. I didn't like reading
    that they would not ship it to a store closer to me, but I understood. >> >
    Why would you never say "very good"?
    Because nothing is "very good". OK, maybe.
    What's not "very good" about their nitrile gloves, compared to others?
    Not everything in the world can be "very good". "OK" or "good",
    maybe. There is nothing any better about them than any other. I'm
    sure they aren't "surgical", not that they need to be,
    What's not "very good" about their Anti-Fatigue Foam Mats? (They have
    many uses other than standing on. I use them to protect stuff, such as the >> >interior of my vehicles when I'm hauling stuff or when I need a small
    piece of padding to absorb vibrations or prevent scratching.)
    Again, OK but nothing to write home about.
    What's not "very good" about their zip ties, e-track accessories, moving
    blankets, dollies, etc.?
    The operative word here is "very".

    First you say 'Because nothing is "very good"'

    Nothing at HF, no.

    Then you say 'Not everything in the world can be "very good".'

    Exactly. If everything is, then nothing is. The word is then
    meaningless.

    "Not everything" leaves room for something to be "very good" yet
    you said that *nothing* is very good.

    HF was the context. No, nothing is "very good". "Very bad",
    certainly.

    Please explain.

    Again, the subject was HF.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to Bill on Wed Feb 16 17:52:49 2022
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 14:59:49 -0500, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

    On 2/16/2022 1:30 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 12:44:37 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 09:38:28 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 12:18:29 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 09:10:11 -0500, Bill <none...@att.net> wrote:

    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer >>>>>>>> service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not >>>>>>>> take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two >>>>>>>> stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than that?

    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work gloves >>>>>> for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20. HF has also taken >>>>>> returns from me even though it was technically passed the return date. >>>>>> They also have "blue tarps" in every size imaginable. As has been said >>>>>> many times before, you just have to be selective about what you buy >>>>>> there. I don't think it's fair to expect them to provide extra customer >>>>>> service based upon their profit margins. They make their money on
    volume, not having extra personal around to provide extra customer >>>>>> service. They are what they are and you either take it or leave it. >>>>> I certainly wouldn't say "very good". Cheap but never "very good". I >>>>> used to buy nitrile gloves there but post covid there are places no
    more expensive. Expensive but no more so.
    In December, I wanted to buy (and am still on the lookout for) a "hot >>>>>> dog compresssor" from HF that was discontinued and the nearest one >>>>>> in stock was at a store 70 miles away from me. I didn't like reading >>>>>> that they would not ship it to a store closer to me, but I understood. >>>>
    Why would you never say "very good"?
    Because nothing is "very good". OK, maybe.
    What's not "very good" about their nitrile gloves, compared to others?
    Not everything in the world can be "very good". "OK" or "good",
    maybe. There is nothing any better about them than any other. I'm
    sure they aren't "surgical", not that they need to be,
    What's not "very good" about their Anti-Fatigue Foam Mats? (They have
    many uses other than standing on. I use them to protect stuff, such as the >>>> interior of my vehicles when I'm hauling stuff or when I need a small
    piece of padding to absorb vibrations or prevent scratching.)
    Again, OK but nothing to write home about.
    What's not "very good" about their zip ties, e-track accessories, moving >>>> blankets, dollies, etc.?
    The operative word here is "very".

    First you say 'Because nothing is "very good"'

    Then you say 'Not everything in the world can be "very good".'

    "Not everything" leaves room for something to be "very good" yet
    you said that *nothing* is very good.

    Please explain.


    As the person who first typed the word "very", I apologize for doing so. >Honestly, I didn't really mean it.
    Here: Some of their stuff is truly good or at least quite acceptable. %-)

    There ya' go. ;-) Some stuff is good at a good or even "very good"
    price. ;-))

    I rarely go to HF but I have drawers full of HF tie wraps. ;-) I keep
    them like pencils. I keep a stash anywhere I'm likely to need one.

    I also like their pneumatic tires. I have several pairs that I use to
    move *heavy* items. I used them to move my bandsaw into the basement
    a couple of years ago and I have a jointer that needs to get there
    sometime soon. Maybe. It'll have to wait a while longer (or I'll have
    to hire a piano mover, perhaps).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 16 18:10:05 2022
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 14:01:32 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/16/2022 8:10 AM, Bill wrote:
    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not
    take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than that?

    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work gloves
    for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20.

    Sooo why would one need 6 pair of gloves if one pair is very good?

    Centipede? 1-1/2 octopi?

    HF has also taken
    returns from me even though it was technically passed the return date.

    That has nothing to do with the quality of the products that they sell.
    It has almost always been the policy of some stores to take back
    merchandise when it had issues, regardless of when it was bought.

    As you point out (below) the margin is so high that it's not worth
    pissing off any customer. Give them *anything* they want.

    They also have "blue tarps" in every size imaginable. As has been said
    many times before, you just have to be selective about what you buy
    there.

    I have found better tarps through Amazon for less.

    I don't think it's fair to expect them to provide extra customer
    service based upon their profit margins.

    I do not believe that the OP was looking for more customer service, so
    much as a courteous customer service. And with that I again say, bottom
    of the barrel products, did you really expect better than that.

    I think that's a local management issue too. There is no need for
    staff to be rude. Again, it comes down to pissing off a very
    profitable customer for such a small reason.

    They make their money on
    volume, not having extra personal around to provide extra customer
    service. They are what they are and you either take it or leave it.

    Well I can assure you that most of this merchandise has higher profit
    margins that places like HD, or Lowes. Cheap Chinese merchandise is >shockingly inexpensive for the retailer. Your gloves likely cost HF 10
    ~20 cents. Another example, Rockler sells a blue anodized set of clamps
    for holding a sacrificial fence to a TS fence. A Rockler retail owner
    told me that those clamps retailed for about $15, 14 years ago. He was >paying less that 50 cents.

    But your local Rockler doesn't pump out those fence clamps by the
    thousands either. It's still a nice margin but it's not surprising
    either. Pretty sells, even though it does have a big "Rockler"
    engraved into it. ;-)

    In December, I wanted to buy (and am still on the lookout for) a "hot
    dog compresssor" from HF that was discontinued and the nearest one
    in stock was at a store 70 miles away from me. I didn't like reading
    that they would not ship it to a store closer to me, but I understood.

    And again I say...

    Harbor freight saves you money on items that you are likely to only use
    a few times.

    But having said that they do seem to be stepping up their game on some
    of their lines of power tools.

    We'll see. I can't count how many times the plastic on a tool (or
    whatever) turns to goo. There are a lot of things that can go wrong
    with tools.

    Batteries are another sore spot that doesn't show up immediately. I
    got rid of all my Dewalt tools after their batteries kept dying after
    just a couple of years of gentle usage. That was during the NiCd days
    but it seemed like every time I picked up the tool the battery was
    dead (not just discharged). No more Dewalt. Even though I have four
    types of batteries/chargers, there is no reason to try Dewalt again.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 16 17:42:00 2022
    On 2/16/2022 3:21 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 3:01:43 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 2/16/2022 8:10 AM, Bill wrote:
    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not
    take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than that? >>>
    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work gloves
    for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20.
    Sooo why would one need 6 pair of gloves if one pair is very good?

    1 - Vehicle
    2 - Shop
    3 - Other vehicle
    4 - Garage
    5 - Another for the vehicle because you forgot about the pair under the seat. 6 - SWMBO's garden shed


    I keep a pair in the truck. That's it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Wed Feb 16 17:50:13 2022
    On 2/16/2022 5:10 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 14:01:32 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/16/2022 8:10 AM, Bill wrote:
    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will not >>>>> take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than that? >>>
    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work gloves
    for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20.

    Sooo why would one need 6 pair of gloves if one pair is very good?

    Centipede? 1-1/2 octopi?

    HF has also taken
    returns from me even though it was technically passed the return date.

    That has nothing to do with the quality of the products that they sell.
    It has almost always been the policy of some stores to take back
    merchandise when it had issues, regardless of when it was bought.

    As you point out (below) the margin is so high that it's not worth
    pissing off any customer. Give them *anything* they want.

    They also have "blue tarps" in every size imaginable. As has been said
    many times before, you just have to be selective about what you buy
    there.

    I have found better tarps through Amazon for less.

    I don't think it's fair to expect them to provide extra customer
    service based upon their profit margins.

    I do not believe that the OP was looking for more customer service, so
    much as a courteous customer service. And with that I again say, bottom
    of the barrel products, did you really expect better than that.

    I think that's a local management issue too. There is no need for
    staff to be rude. Again, it comes down to pissing off a very
    profitable customer for such a small reason.

    They make their money on
    volume, not having extra personal around to provide extra customer
    service. They are what they are and you either take it or leave it.

    Well I can assure you that most of this merchandise has higher profit
    margins that places like HD, or Lowes. Cheap Chinese merchandise is
    shockingly inexpensive for the retailer. Your gloves likely cost HF 10
    ~20 cents. Another example, Rockler sells a blue anodized set of clamps
    for holding a sacrificial fence to a TS fence. A Rockler retail owner
    told me that those clamps retailed for about $15, 14 years ago. He was
    paying less that 50 cents.

    But your local Rockler doesn't pump out those fence clamps by the
    thousands either. It's still a nice margin but it's not surprising
    either. Pretty sells, even though it does have a big "Rockler"
    engraved into it. ;-)


    Not of that particular item but I doubt all that "Rockler Blue" is
    actually manufactured anywhere but China. I often wonder how they get
    away with some of their copy cat products. ie. the Dubby.

    And Banggood? Copy cat of WoodPeckers tools. Not at Rockler but the
    Banggood stuff is hard to differentiate from Woodpeckers.




    In December, I wanted to buy (and am still on the lookout for) a "hot
    dog compresssor" from HF that was discontinued and the nearest one
    in stock was at a store 70 miles away from me. I didn't like reading
    that they would not ship it to a store closer to me, but I understood.

    And again I say...

    Harbor freight saves you money on items that you are likely to only use
    a few times.

    But having said that they do seem to be stepping up their game on some
    of their lines of power tools.

    We'll see. I can't count how many times the plastic on a tool (or
    whatever) turns to goo. There are a lot of things that can go wrong
    with tools.

    Hence using/buying when you need the tool. And maybe once or twice
    after. I bought a pneumatic stapler 20+ years ago for a store room I
    was building. Stapeling a lot of screen wire for under eve ventelation.
    I have not used it since, that I recall. $15 for the stapler.




    Batteries are another sore spot that doesn't show up immediately. I
    got rid of all my Dewalt tools after their batteries kept dying after
    just a couple of years of gentle usage. That was during the NiCd days
    but it seemed like every time I picked up the tool the battery was
    dead (not just discharged). No more Dewalt. Even though I have four
    types of batteries/chargers, there is no reason to try Dewalt again.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 16 19:06:34 2022
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 17:50:13 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/16/2022 5:10 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 14:01:32 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/16/2022 8:10 AM, Bill wrote:
    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not >>>>>> take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than that? >>>>
    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work gloves >>>> for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20.

    Sooo why would one need 6 pair of gloves if one pair is very good?

    Centipede? 1-1/2 octopi?

    HF has also taken
    returns from me even though it was technically passed the return date.

    That has nothing to do with the quality of the products that they sell.
    It has almost always been the policy of some stores to take back
    merchandise when it had issues, regardless of when it was bought.

    As you point out (below) the margin is so high that it's not worth
    pissing off any customer. Give them *anything* they want.

    They also have "blue tarps" in every size imaginable. As has been said >>>> many times before, you just have to be selective about what you buy
    there.

    I have found better tarps through Amazon for less.

    I don't think it's fair to expect them to provide extra customer
    service based upon their profit margins.

    I do not believe that the OP was looking for more customer service, so
    much as a courteous customer service. And with that I again say, bottom >>> of the barrel products, did you really expect better than that.

    I think that's a local management issue too. There is no need for
    staff to be rude. Again, it comes down to pissing off a very
    profitable customer for such a small reason.

    They make their money on
    volume, not having extra personal around to provide extra customer
    service. They are what they are and you either take it or leave it.

    Well I can assure you that most of this merchandise has higher profit
    margins that places like HD, or Lowes. Cheap Chinese merchandise is
    shockingly inexpensive for the retailer. Your gloves likely cost HF 10
    ~20 cents. Another example, Rockler sells a blue anodized set of clamps >>> for holding a sacrificial fence to a TS fence. A Rockler retail owner
    told me that those clamps retailed for about $15, 14 years ago. He was
    paying less that 50 cents.

    But your local Rockler doesn't pump out those fence clamps by the
    thousands either. It's still a nice margin but it's not surprising
    either. Pretty sells, even though it does have a big "Rockler"
    engraved into it. ;-)


    Not of that particular item but I doubt all that "Rockler Blue" is
    actually manufactured anywhere but China. I often wonder how they get
    away with some of their copy cat products. ie. the Dubby.

    Their "Dubby" isn't anything like the real thing.

    I always wondered how Kreg let them get away with the blue T-track
    parts.

    And Banggood? Copy cat of WoodPeckers tools. Not at Rockler but the >Banggood stuff is hard to differentiate from Woodpeckers.

    I've seen the youtubes comparing them. Didn't see the point (of
    comparing them).


    In December, I wanted to buy (and am still on the lookout for) a "hot
    dog compresssor" from HF that was discontinued and the nearest one
    in stock was at a store 70 miles away from me. I didn't like reading
    that they would not ship it to a store closer to me, but I understood.

    And again I say...

    Harbor freight saves you money on items that you are likely to only use
    a few times.

    But having said that they do seem to be stepping up their game on some
    of their lines of power tools.

    We'll see. I can't count how many times the plastic on a tool (or
    whatever) turns to goo. There are a lot of things that can go wrong
    with tools.

    Hence using/buying when you need the tool. And maybe once or twice
    after. I bought a pneumatic stapler 20+ years ago for a store room I
    was building. Stapeling a lot of screen wire for under eve ventelation.
    I have not used it since, that I recall. $15 for the stapler.




    Batteries are another sore spot that doesn't show up immediately. I
    got rid of all my Dewalt tools after their batteries kept dying after
    just a couple of years of gentle usage. That was during the NiCd days
    but it seemed like every time I picked up the tool the battery was
    dead (not just discharged). No more Dewalt. Even though I have four
    types of batteries/chargers, there is no reason to try Dewalt again.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Wed Feb 16 18:13:54 2022
    On 2/16/2022 6:06 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 17:50:13 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/16/2022 5:10 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 14:01:32 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/16/2022 8:10 AM, Bill wrote:
    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer >>>>>>> service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will not >>>>>>> take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of two >>>>>>> stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than that? >>>>>
    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work gloves >>>>> for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20.

    Sooo why would one need 6 pair of gloves if one pair is very good?

    Centipede? 1-1/2 octopi?

    HF has also taken
    returns from me even though it was technically passed the return date. >>>>
    That has nothing to do with the quality of the products that they sell. >>>> It has almost always been the policy of some stores to take back
    merchandise when it had issues, regardless of when it was bought.

    As you point out (below) the margin is so high that it's not worth
    pissing off any customer. Give them *anything* they want.

    They also have "blue tarps" in every size imaginable. As has been said >>>>> many times before, you just have to be selective about what you buy
    there.

    I have found better tarps through Amazon for less.

    I don't think it's fair to expect them to provide extra customer
    service based upon their profit margins.

    I do not believe that the OP was looking for more customer service, so >>>> much as a courteous customer service. And with that I again say, bottom >>>> of the barrel products, did you really expect better than that.

    I think that's a local management issue too. There is no need for
    staff to be rude. Again, it comes down to pissing off a very
    profitable customer for such a small reason.

    They make their money on
    volume, not having extra personal around to provide extra customer
    service. They are what they are and you either take it or leave it.

    Well I can assure you that most of this merchandise has higher profit
    margins that places like HD, or Lowes. Cheap Chinese merchandise is
    shockingly inexpensive for the retailer. Your gloves likely cost HF 10 >>>> ~20 cents. Another example, Rockler sells a blue anodized set of clamps >>>> for holding a sacrificial fence to a TS fence. A Rockler retail owner >>>> told me that those clamps retailed for about $15, 14 years ago. He was >>>> paying less that 50 cents.

    But your local Rockler doesn't pump out those fence clamps by the
    thousands either. It's still a nice margin but it's not surprising
    either. Pretty sells, even though it does have a big "Rockler"
    engraved into it. ;-)


    Not of that particular item but I doubt all that "Rockler Blue" is
    actually manufactured anywhere but China. I often wonder how they get
    away with some of their copy cat products. ie. the Dubby.

    Their "Dubby" isn't anything like the real thing.

    No it is not, much smaller first glance.



    I always wondered how Kreg let them get away with the blue T-track
    parts.

    And Banggood? Copy cat of WoodPeckers tools. Not at Rockler but the
    Banggood stuff is hard to differentiate from Woodpeckers.

    I've seen the youtubes comparing them. Didn't see the point (of
    comparing them).

    That German guy compares and I would say that he often sees issues with
    the copy cats. Tolerances are not the same.






    In December, I wanted to buy (and am still on the lookout for) a "hot >>>>> dog compresssor" from HF that was discontinued and the nearest one
    in stock was at a store 70 miles away from me. I didn't like reading >>>>> that they would not ship it to a store closer to me, but I understood. >>>>
    And again I say...

    Harbor freight saves you money on items that you are likely to only use >>>> a few times.

    But having said that they do seem to be stepping up their game on some >>>> of their lines of power tools.

    We'll see. I can't count how many times the plastic on a tool (or
    whatever) turns to goo. There are a lot of things that can go wrong
    with tools.

    Hence using/buying when you need the tool. And maybe once or twice
    after. I bought a pneumatic stapler 20+ years ago for a store room I
    was building. Stapeling a lot of screen wire for under eve ventelation.
    I have not used it since, that I recall. $15 for the stapler.




    Batteries are another sore spot that doesn't show up immediately. I
    got rid of all my Dewalt tools after their batteries kept dying after
    just a couple of years of gentle usage. That was during the NiCd days
    but it seemed like every time I picked up the tool the battery was
    dead (not just discharged). No more Dewalt. Even though I have four
    types of batteries/chargers, there is no reason to try Dewalt again.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Leon on Wed Feb 16 18:04:43 2022
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 6:42:09 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 2/16/2022 3:21 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Wednesday, February 16, 2022 at 3:01:43 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 2/16/2022 8:10 AM, Bill wrote:
    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not
    take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than that? >>>
    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work gloves >>> for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20.
    Sooo why would one need 6 pair of gloves if one pair is very good?

    1 - Vehicle
    2 - Shop
    3 - Other vehicle
    4 - Garage
    5 - Another for the vehicle because you forgot about the pair under the seat.
    6 - SWMBO's garden shed
    I keep a pair in the truck. That's it.

    This time of year I need a pair just to get to the pair that are in the van. ;-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jack@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Fri Feb 18 12:11:51 2022
    On 2/16/2022 12:18 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 16 Feb 2022 09:10:11 -0500, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will not
    take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than that?

    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work gloves
    for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20. HF has also taken
    returns from me even though it was technically passed the return date.
    They also have "blue tarps" in every size imaginable. As has been said
    many times before, you just have to be selective about what you buy
    there. I don't think it's fair to expect them to provide extra customer
    service based upon their profit margins. They make their money on
    volume, not having extra personal around to provide extra customer
    service. They are what they are and you either take it or leave it.

    I certainly wouldn't say "very good". Cheap but never "very good". I
    used to buy nitrile gloves there but post covid there are places no
    more expensive. Expensive but no more so.

    Bill is exactly right. For example, I bought a rubber mallet (https://tinyurl.com/5n8u25af) about 15 years ago and it has been "very
    good" even great. Lots of the stuff is cheap junk, but lots of it is
    also good enough, particularly stuff you seldom use. I bought a pin nailer/staple combo for cheap and it's worked flawlessly for years. I
    don't use it much but when I do, it's fine. I bought some cheap clamps
    once and they are close to worthless.

    I never once had an issue with customer service either.
    --
    Jack
    Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to Bob La Londe on Fri Feb 18 12:46:52 2022
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will not
    take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man.  The writing was on the wall.  Inventory selection has been at a constant
    decline ever since.  Clearly the son was applying turn rate and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore the fact that if you
    don't have what a customer wants they buy the turn rate items elsewhere too.  I get less and less at Harbor Freight simply because they don't
    have the huge array of single use specialty tools they used to have.  At least now they have a website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally or not.  Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening.  I went in to buy
    a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line.  Along with that trash
    pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories  It had one of
    those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the shelf, so I grabbed a
    tag and all the accessories.  I made a point of handing the tag to the cashier first.  I didn't set any of my other stuff on the counter.  She took the tag and set it aside.  Then she proceeded to take stuff out of
    my cart to ring it up.  I stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on
    that pump first."

    She replied that she didn't need to check.  She knew they didn't have
    any in stock.  I let here know I'd checked the website before coming.
    She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have any, but I'll check."  Then she finally punched it in, and said, "Yeah only the
    display model."  She immediately started ringing up the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the pump it
    goes with?"  She just looked at me like I was an idiot.  I walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple days
    instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not.  Maybe its working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI:  There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon.  (20% for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob La Londe@21:1/5 to Johnny Templeton on Fri Feb 18 11:34:43 2022
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and
    independent.


    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man. The
    writing was on the wall. Inventory selection has been at a constant
    decline ever since. Clearly the son was applying turn rate and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore the fact that if you
    don't have what a customer wants they buy the turn rate items elsewhere
    too. I get less and less at Harbor Freight simply because they don't
    have the huge array of single use specialty tools they used to have. At
    least now they have a website that usually tells me if what I want is in
    stock locally or not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening. I went in to buy
    a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line. Along with that trash
    pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories It had one of
    those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the shelf, so I grabbed a
    tag and all the accessories. I made a point of handing the tag to the
    cashier first. I didn't set any of my other stuff on the counter. She
    took the tag and set it aside. Then she proceeded to take stuff out of
    my cart to ring it up. I stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on
    that pump first."

    She replied that she didn't need to check. She knew they didn't have
    any in stock. I let here know I'd checked the website before coming.
    She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have any, but I'll
    check." Then she finally punched it in, and said, "Yeah only the
    display model." She immediately started ringing up the accessories and
    hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the pump it
    goes with?" She just looked at me like I was an idiot. I walked around
    the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple days
    instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not. Maybe its working for
    them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI: There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon. (20% for In
    Track members).

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Puckdropper@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Sat Feb 19 09:02:13 2022
    DerbyDad03 <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote in news:a67c4f0c-fa20-435a-ba66-500c291cf764n@googlegroups.com:


    This time of year I need a pair just to get to the pair that are in
    the van. ;-)


    And another pair to change in to when the first ones get wet and you have
    to take them off for some reason.

    I don't get why people like 28F degree weather. It's just too darn hot to
    be useful. Get it back down around 18F and you can actually work in it
    without building up too much sweat!

    Puckdropper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill@21:1/5 to Leon on Sat Feb 19 12:07:29 2022
    On 2/16/2022 3:54 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/16/2022 2:16 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 2/16/2022 3:01 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/16/2022 8:10 AM, Bill wrote:
    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will
    not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of >>>>>> two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than
    that?

    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work
    gloves for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20.

    Sooo why would one need 6 pair of gloves if one pair is very good?

    You must not have ever played Poker...  ; )


    What poker hand has 6 pair and or 12 cards?  ;~)


    Many years ago, I was playing Poker with friends, and my friend
    announced he had "2 pair", <pause> "2 pair of fives". I was saddened to
    learn of his "good fortune" at the time. But this morning it occurred to
    me that he didn't really figure his hand correctly, he had <wait for
    Comb(4,2) = C(4,2) = 6 pair of fives! Read 'em and weep! lol

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob La Londe@21:1/5 to Leon on Sat Feb 19 10:26:39 2022
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will not
    take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man.  The
    writing was on the wall.  Inventory selection has been at a constant
    decline ever since.  Clearly the son was applying turn rate and margin
    principles learned in business classes that ignore the fact that if
    you don't have what a customer wants they buy the turn rate items
    elsewhere too.  I get less and less at Harbor Freight simply because
    they don't have the huge array of single use specialty tools they used
    to have.  At least now they have a website that usually tells me if
    what I want is in stock locally or not.  Not always, but most of the
    time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening.  I went in to
    buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line.  Along with that
    trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories  It had
    one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the shelf, so I
    grabbed a tag and all the accessories.  I made a point of handing the
    tag to the cashier first.  I didn't set any of my other stuff on the
    counter.  She took the tag and set it aside.  Then she proceeded to
    take stuff out of my cart to ring it up.  I stopped her and said,
    "Lets get somebody on that pump first."

    She replied that she didn't need to check.  She knew they didn't have
    any in stock.  I let here know I'd checked the website before coming.
    She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have any, but
    I'll check."  Then she finally punched it in, and said, "Yeah only the
    display model."  She immediately started ringing up the accessories
    and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the pump
    it goes with?"  She just looked at me like I was an idiot.  I walked
    around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple days
    instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not.  Maybe its working
    for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI:  There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon.  (20% for
    In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards.


    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in the
    back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the Harbor
    Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as thumbing through
    an Alden's Christmas toy catalog. The Harbor Freight Catalog was almost
    as thick, and it was printed on almost bible thin paper. Now they
    couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item. The used to sell 15-20 different metal lathes.
    Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2 metal lathes
    they sell are the same machine with different length beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell. It didn't happen
    from covid either. It clearly and definitely started when Old Man
    Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic
    general business principles. In college even the business instructor
    who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions. Maybe Harbor Freight needed
    to clean up a little bit, but removing more than 90% of their selection
    wasn't the right answer either.



    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Puckdropper on Sat Feb 19 10:29:47 2022
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 4:02:19 AM UTC-5, Puckdropper wrote:
    DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in news:a67c4f0c-fa20-435a...@googlegroups.com:

    This time of year I need a pair just to get to the pair that are in
    the van. ;-)

    And another pair to change in to when the first ones get wet and you have
    to take them off for some reason.

    Actually I solved that problem with another HF product: Their 5mm nitrile gloves. I wear them under gloves when I'm doing wet yardwork, blowing
    snow, etc. Keeps the wet away from the skin, keeps the hands clean, and
    keeps the wind off if I need to do something "delicate" and have to take
    outer gloves off.

    When I take off the nitrile pair, I leave them inside out so the perspiration dries. When I need to put them on again, I turn them inside in, blow into them to pop the fingers out and they're good to go.


    I don't get why people like 28F degree weather. It's just too darn hot to
    be useful. Get it back down around 18F and you can actually work in it without building up too much sweat!

    I just bought a new snow blower. At 245 lbs, it's about 40 lbs heavier than
    my old one. I may need to shed a layer. ;-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Bill on Sat Feb 19 10:46:40 2022
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 12:07:36 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
    On 2/16/2022 3:54 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/16/2022 2:16 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 2/16/2022 3:01 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/16/2022 8:10 AM, Bill wrote:
    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer >>>>>> service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will
    not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of >>>>>> two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than >>>>> that?

    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work
    gloves for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20.

    Sooo why would one need 6 pair of gloves if one pair is very good?

    You must not have ever played Poker... ; )


    What poker hand has 6 pair and or 12 cards? ;~)
    Many years ago, I was playing Poker with friends, and my friend
    announced he had "2 pair", <pause> "2 pair of fives". I was saddened to
    learn of his "good fortune" at the time. But this morning it occurred to
    me that he didn't really figure his hand correctly, he had <wait for
    Comb(4,2) = C(4,2) = 6 pair of fives! Read 'em and weep! lol

    I used to play cards with some real A-holes.

    If you said "2 pair", <pause> "2 pair of fives" and one of them
    had 3 of a kind, trouble was a' brewing. "You called 2 pair, not
    4 of kind. My pot."

    Depending on the amount of C2H5OH consumed, things might
    get ugly.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to Bill on Sat Feb 19 13:42:49 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 12:07:29 -0500, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

    On 2/16/2022 3:54 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/16/2022 2:16 PM, Bill wrote:
    On 2/16/2022 3:01 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/16/2022 8:10 AM, Bill wrote:
    On 2/15/2022 7:08 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer >>>>>>> service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will
    not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of >>>>>>> two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than >>>>>> that?

    Some of their stuff is very good. They'll sell me 6 pair of work
    gloves for $8, while 1 pair of work gloves at Lowes is $20.

    Sooo why would one need 6 pair of gloves if one pair is very good?

    You must not have ever played Poker... ; )


    What poker hand has 6 pair and or 12 cards? ;~)


    Many years ago, I was playing Poker with friends, and my friend
    announced he had "2 pair", <pause> "2 pair of fives".

    I've heard of that as "a pair of fives over fives".

    I was saddened to
    learn of his "good fortune" at the time. But this morning it occurred to
    me that he didn't really figure his hand correctly, he had <wait for
    Comb(4,2) = C(4,2) = 6 pair of fives! Read 'em and weep! lol

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 19 13:51:50 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 09:02:13 GMT, Puckdropper <puckdropper@yahoo.com>
    wrote:

    DerbyDad03 <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote in >news:a67c4f0c-fa20-435a-ba66-500c291cf764n@googlegroups.com:


    This time of year I need a pair just to get to the pair that are in
    the van. ;-)


    And another pair to change in to when the first ones get wet and you have
    to take them off for some reason.

    I don't get why people like 28F degree weather. It's just too darn hot to
    be useful. Get it back down around 18F and you can actually work in it >without building up too much sweat!

    Might as well go out and work. My house won't maintain temperature
    below about 25F. Set-backs are a silly idea at anything below 40-50F.

    I walk three hours every morning (when it's not raining). I get cold
    at anything between 35 and 50ish. Below 35, I don't sweat much and it
    doesn't matter above 50. This time of year the temperature can easily
    go up 20F during that time so it's hard to know whether to wear
    gloves.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Sat Feb 19 13:53:42 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:29:47 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 4:02:19 AM UTC-5, Puckdropper wrote:
    DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in
    news:a67c4f0c-fa20-435a...@googlegroups.com:

    This time of year I need a pair just to get to the pair that are in
    the van. ;-)

    And another pair to change in to when the first ones get wet and you have
    to take them off for some reason.

    Actually I solved that problem with another HF product: Their 5mm nitrile >gloves. I wear them under gloves when I'm doing wet yardwork, blowing
    snow, etc. Keeps the wet away from the skin, keeps the hands clean, and
    keeps the wind off if I need to do something "delicate" and have to take >outer gloves off.

    When I take off the nitrile pair, I leave them inside out so the perspiration >dries. When I need to put them on again, I turn them inside in, blow into them >to pop the fingers out and they're good to go.


    I don't get why people like 28F degree weather. It's just too darn hot to
    be useful. Get it back down around 18F and you can actually work in it
    without building up too much sweat!

    I just bought a new snow blower. At 245 lbs, it's about 40 lbs heavier than >my old one. I may need to shed a layer. ;-)

    Snow blowers usually have wheels. You're not supposed to lift them!
    ;-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Pawlowski@21:1/5 to Johnny Templeton on Sat Feb 19 14:07:17 2022
    On 2/14/2022 2:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and
    independent.

    Shipping is done from a warehouse, not individual stores. They are not
    set up for it.

    Hold with credit card? I bet they got screwed a few times doing that.

    Arrogant? Could be, but maybe they seem that way because they cannot do
    what you want.

    It's Harbor Freight. Maybe you should try Neiman Marcus or Bergdorf
    Goodman instad.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to k...@notreal.com on Sat Feb 19 12:38:57 2022
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 1:53:49 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:29:47 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 4:02:19 AM UTC-5, Puckdropper wrote:
    DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in
    news:a67c4f0c-fa20-435a...@googlegroups.com:

    This time of year I need a pair just to get to the pair that are in
    the van. ;-)

    And another pair to change in to when the first ones get wet and you have >> to take them off for some reason.

    Actually I solved that problem with another HF product: Their 5mm nitrile >gloves. I wear them under gloves when I'm doing wet yardwork, blowing
    snow, etc. Keeps the wet away from the skin, keeps the hands clean, and >keeps the wind off if I need to do something "delicate" and have to take >outer gloves off.

    When I take off the nitrile pair, I leave them inside out so the perspiration
    dries. When I need to put them on again, I turn them inside in, blow into them
    to pop the fingers out and they're good to go.


    I don't get why people like 28F degree weather. It's just too darn hot to >> be useful. Get it back down around 18F and you can actually work in it
    without building up too much sweat!

    I just bought a new snow blower. At 245 lbs, it's about 40 lbs heavier than >my old one. I may need to shed a layer. ;-)
    Snow blowers usually have wheels. You're not supposed to lift them!
    ;-)

    "Wheels" is kind of why I upgraded - differential steering actually - but
    I'm not sure that I made my life any easier. What I gained in "ease of steering" I lost with the extra weight.

    Most of where I blow snow is in tight places that require a lot of steering
    but some places are still too tight and I have to muscle the machine around. The new machine is heavier and longer, so I find I'm still working at least
    as hard as I was before. Although, I have to say that the bigger machine
    does allow me to use the full width of the bucket without leaving a strip
    of snow. By that I mean that if I used more than 2/3's of the bucket on
    old machine, snow would come out of the top corner of the bucket and
    land next to where I just cleared. With the new machine I can use the full
    24" and it all comes out of the chute. I'm not sure if it's the larger auger, larger impeller, larger engine or all three. So, theoretically, I'm making
    1/3 less trips with the new machine.

    They are both Ariens machines but the old one is a Ariens Sno-Tek,
    which is a line that they came out with about 11 years ago to compete
    with the (back then) $600 class of home center choices. It's been a
    great machine - never had a single problem with it. 1 pull start every
    time. Still looks good too. (It's for sale)

    Ariens Deluxe 24" vs. Ariens Sno-Tek 24"

    Check out the new wheels. ;-)

    https://i.imgur.com/MPhj9lw.jpg

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to Bob La Londe on Sat Feb 19 15:13:34 2022
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will not
    take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man.
    The writing was on the wall.  Inventory selection has been at a
    constant decline ever since.  Clearly the son was applying turn rate
    and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore the
    fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the turn
    rate items elsewhere too.  I get less and less at Harbor Freight
    simply because they don't have the huge array of single use specialty
    tools they used to have.  At least now they have a website that
    usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally or not.  Not
    always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening.  I went in to
    buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line.  Along with that
    trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories  It had
    one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the shelf, so I
    grabbed a tag and all the accessories.  I made a point of handing the
    tag to the cashier first.  I didn't set any of my other stuff on the
    counter.  She took the tag and set it aside.  Then she proceeded to
    take stuff out of my cart to ring it up.  I stopped her and said,
    "Lets get somebody on that pump first."

    She replied that she didn't need to check.  She knew they didn't have
    any in stock.  I let here know I'd checked the website before coming.
    She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have any, but
    I'll check."  Then she finally punched it in, and said, "Yeah only
    the display model."  She immediately started ringing up the
    accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the pump
    it goes with?"  She just looked at me like I was an idiot.  I walked
    around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple days
    instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not.  Maybe its working
    for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI:  There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon.  (20% for
    In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most all
    manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards.


    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in the
    back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the Harbor
    Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as thumbing through
    an Alden's Christmas toy catalog.  The Harbor Freight Catalog was almost
    as thick, and it was printed on almost bible thin paper.  Now they
    couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item.  The used to sell 15-20 different metal lathes.
    Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2 metal lathes
    they sell are the same machine with different length beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell.  It didn't happen
    from covid either.  It clearly and definitely started when Old Man
    Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic
    general business principles.  In college even the business instructor
    who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions.  Maybe Harbor Freight needed
    to clean up a little bit, but removing more than 90% of their selection wasn't the right answer either.



    You stock what sells. Floor space is valuable.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob La Londe@21:1/5 to Leon on Sat Feb 19 16:38:59 2022
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will not >>>>> take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man.
    The writing was on the wall.  Inventory selection has been at a
    constant decline ever since.  Clearly the son was applying turn rate
    and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore the
    fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the turn
    rate items elsewhere too.  I get less and less at Harbor Freight
    simply because they don't have the huge array of single use
    specialty tools they used to have.  At least now they have a website
    that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally or not.
    Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening.  I went in to
    buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line.  Along with that
    trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories  It had
    one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the shelf, so I
    grabbed a tag and all the accessories.  I made a point of handing
    the tag to the cashier first.  I didn't set any of my other stuff on
    the counter.  She took the tag and set it aside.  Then she proceeded >>>> to take stuff out of my cart to ring it up.  I stopped her and said,
    "Lets get somebody on that pump first."

    She replied that she didn't need to check.  She knew they didn't
    have any in stock.  I let here know I'd checked the website before
    coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have
    any, but I'll check."  Then she finally punched it in, and said,
    "Yeah only the display model."  She immediately started ringing up
    the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the pump
    it goes with?"  She just looked at me like I was an idiot.  I walked >>>> around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple days
    instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not.  Maybe its working
    for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI:  There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon.  (20% for >>>> In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most all
    manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards.


    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in
    the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the Harbor
    Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as thumbing through
    an Alden's Christmas toy catalog.  The Harbor Freight Catalog was
    almost as thick, and it was printed on almost bible thin paper.  Now
    they couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item.  The used to sell 15-20 different metal lathes.
    Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2 metal
    lathes they sell are the same machine with different length beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell.  It didn't happen
    from covid either.  It clearly and definitely started when Old Man
    Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic
    general business principles.  In college even the business instructor
    who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down from the
    mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions.  Maybe Harbor
    Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more than 90% of
    their selection wasn't the right answer either.



    You stock what sells.  Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field bolt
    because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and you tell
    me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who buys them and
    its not worth it for us. I'll say "ok," load my wife and kids back in
    the pickup truck and head into town. While I'm in town I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of stopping next door at your
    grocery store for them. Since I'm already in town I buy the new stove
    the old lady wanted, and purchase that new rifle I had been eyeballing
    in your gun rack. So because you were to stubborn to stock what I needed
    I bought a bunch of high turn rate items and a couple high margin items
    from somebody else. Instead of having some stocking costs you lost a
    huge number of sales.

    When I get back to the farm and my mechanic asks why it took so long to
    get the simple part she needed for the combine we get to talking. I
    tell her I had to run into town for it and how much cheaper groceries
    were in town instead of Leon's Grocery store, and how I bought this cool
    new rifle over at Joe's Gun Shop instead of Leon's hardware store. I
    might even mention how much the old lady is pleased about the new stove
    she got to pick out at Home Depot.

    The farm mechanic heard two things in that. Leon doesn't have what we
    need, and things are cheaper in town. She tells her husband to go to
    town for groceries, and while you are there pop over to O'Reilly Auto
    for a new starter for the truck she is fixing up.

    Floor space is valuable, but telling customers what they need is not
    important is stupid whether its said directly or indirectly.

    Here is one of those truisms that came down from the mountain for you.
    Its a heck of a lot easier to sell to the customer who walks into your
    store than the one walking down the street, and its an order of
    magnitude easier than trying to sell to the one who had to leave to get
    what they really needed somewhere else.

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Pawlowski@21:1/5 to Bob La Londe on Sat Feb 19 19:01:30 2022
    On 2/19/2022 6:38 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will
    not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of >>>>>> two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man.
    The writing was on the wall.  Inventory selection has been at a
    constant decline ever since.  Clearly the son was applying turn
    rate and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore
    the fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the
    turn rate items elsewhere too.  I get less and less at Harbor
    Freight simply because they don't have the huge array of single use
    specialty tools they used to have.  At least now they have a
    website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally or
    not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening.  I went in to >>>>> buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line.  Along with that >>>>> trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories  It
    had one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the shelf,
    so I grabbed a tag and all the accessories.  I made a point of
    handing the tag to the cashier first.  I didn't set any of my other >>>>> stuff on the counter.  She took the tag and set it aside.  Then she >>>>> proceeded to take stuff out of my cart to ring it up.  I stopped
    her and said, "Lets get somebody on that pump first."

    She replied that she didn't need to check.  She knew they didn't
    have any in stock.  I let here know I'd checked the website before
    coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have
    any, but I'll check."  Then she finally punched it in, and said,
    "Yeah only the display model."  She immediately started ringing up
    the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the
    pump it goes with?"  She just looked at me like I was an idiot.  I >>>>> walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple
    days instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not.  Maybe its
    working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI:  There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon.  (20%
    for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most all
    manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards.


    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in
    the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the Harbor
    Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as thumbing
    through an Alden's Christmas toy catalog.  The Harbor Freight Catalog
    was almost as thick, and it was printed on almost bible thin paper.
    Now they couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item.  The used to sell 15-20 different metal
    lathes. Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2
    metal lathes they sell are the same machine with different length beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell.  It didn't
    happen from covid either.  It clearly and definitely started when Old
    Man Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic
    general business principles.  In college even the business instructor
    who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down from the
    mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions.  Maybe Harbor
    Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more than 90%
    of their selection wasn't the right answer either.



    You stock what sells.  Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field bolt because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and you tell
    me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who buys them and
    its not worth it for us.  I'll say "ok," load my wife and kids back in
    the pickup truck and head into town.  While I'm in town I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of stopping next door at your grocery store for them.  Since I'm already in town I buy the new stove
    the old lady wanted, and purchase that new rifle I had been eyeballing
    in your gun rack. So because you were to stubborn to stock what I needed
    I bought a bunch of high turn rate items and a couple high margin items
    from somebody else.  Instead of having some stocking costs you lost a
    huge number of sales.

    When I get back to the farm and my mechanic asks why it took so long to
    get the simple part she needed for the combine we get to talking.  I
    tell her I had to run into town for it and how much cheaper groceries
    were in town instead of Leon's Grocery store, and how I bought this cool
    new rifle over at Joe's Gun Shop instead of Leon's hardware store.  I
    might even mention how much the old lady is pleased about the new stove
    she got to pick out at Home Depot.

    The farm mechanic heard two things in that.  Leon doesn't have what we
    need, and things are cheaper in town.  She tells her husband to go to
    town for groceries, and while you are there pop over to O'Reilly Auto
    for a new starter for the truck she is fixing up.

    Floor space is valuable, but telling customers what they need is not important is stupid whether its said directly or indirectly.

    Here is one of those truisms that came down from the mountain for you.
    Its a heck of a lot easier to sell to the customer who walks into your
    store than the one walking down the street, and its an order of
    magnitude easier than trying to sell to the one who had to leave to get
    what they really needed somewhere else.

    You should have had that part in your own stock. Shear pins are made to
    shear and if you did not have a spare it is your incompetence and lack
    of planning. When one breaks, order from Grainger or McMaster.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Sat Feb 19 19:07:38 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 12:38:57 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 1:53:49 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:29:47 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 4:02:19 AM UTC-5, Puckdropper wrote:
    DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in
    news:a67c4f0c-fa20-435a...@googlegroups.com:

    This time of year I need a pair just to get to the pair that are in
    the van. ;-)

    And another pair to change in to when the first ones get wet and you have >> >> to take them off for some reason.

    Actually I solved that problem with another HF product: Their 5mm nitrile >> >gloves. I wear them under gloves when I'm doing wet yardwork, blowing
    snow, etc. Keeps the wet away from the skin, keeps the hands clean, and
    keeps the wind off if I need to do something "delicate" and have to take
    outer gloves off.

    When I take off the nitrile pair, I leave them inside out so the perspiration
    dries. When I need to put them on again, I turn them inside in, blow into them
    to pop the fingers out and they're good to go.


    I don't get why people like 28F degree weather. It's just too darn hot to >> >> be useful. Get it back down around 18F and you can actually work in it
    without building up too much sweat!

    I just bought a new snow blower. At 245 lbs, it's about 40 lbs heavier than >> >my old one. I may need to shed a layer. ;-)
    Snow blowers usually have wheels. You're not supposed to lift them!
    ;-)

    "Wheels" is kind of why I upgraded - differential steering actually - but
    I'm not sure that I made my life any easier. What I gained in "ease of >steering" I lost with the extra weight.

    Most of where I blow snow is in tight places that require a lot of steering >but some places are still too tight and I have to muscle the machine around. >The new machine is heavier and longer, so I find I'm still working at least >as hard as I was before. Although, I have to say that the bigger machine
    does allow me to use the full width of the bucket without leaving a strip
    of snow. By that I mean that if I used more than 2/3's of the bucket on
    old machine, snow would come out of the top corner of the bucket and
    land next to where I just cleared. With the new machine I can use the full >24" and it all comes out of the chute. I'm not sure if it's the larger auger, >larger impeller, larger engine or all three. So, theoretically, I'm making >1/3 less trips with the new machine.

    My biggest problem was ice, mostly from the snow plow. It also didn't
    like snow above the height of the bucket, which wasn't rare. In any
    serious snow storm, I'd go out a couple of times during the night to
    clear the driveway so it wouldn't clog thing to do it in one pass. The neighbors didn't mind the noise. They were out there too.

    There were years that there had been enough snow that it was piled so
    high the blower couldn't lift more above the mounds I'd already piled
    up. Early in the season I started blowing it off the grass next to
    the driveway to get it further back so I had somewhere to put it
    later.

    They are both Ariens machines but the old one is a Ariens Sno-Tek,
    which is a line that they came out with about 11 years ago to compete
    with the (back then) $600 class of home center choices. It's been a
    great machine - never had a single problem with it. 1 pull start every
    time. Still looks good too. (It's for sale)

    Mine was pull-start but I was younger then, too. There is a reason we
    moved where it don't snow. I couldn't do it now. For certain, I
    couldn't shovel it by hand. I have enough metal in me that I couldn't
    stand the cold either. Nope. Not going back (between October and
    May).

    Ariens Deluxe 24" vs. Ariens Sno-Tek 24"

    Check out the new wheels. ;-)

    https://i.imgur.com/MPhj9lw.jpg

    The pic makes it look like there should be a doll house behind them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 19 19:10:12 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 15:13:34 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not
    take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two
    stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man.
    The writing was on the wall. Inventory selection has been at a
    constant decline ever since. Clearly the son was applying turn rate
    and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore the
    fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the turn
    rate items elsewhere too. I get less and less at Harbor Freight
    simply because they don't have the huge array of single use specialty
    tools they used to have. At least now they have a website that
    usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally or not. Not
    always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening. I went in to
    buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line. Along with that
    trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories It had
    one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the shelf, so I
    grabbed a tag and all the accessories. I made a point of handing the
    tag to the cashier first. I didn't set any of my other stuff on the
    counter. She took the tag and set it aside. Then she proceeded to
    take stuff out of my cart to ring it up. I stopped her and said,
    "Lets get somebody on that pump first."

    She replied that she didn't need to check. She knew they didn't have
    any in stock. I let here know I'd checked the website before coming.
    She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have any, but
    I'll check." Then she finally punched it in, and said, "Yeah only
    the display model." She immediately started ringing up the
    accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the pump
    it goes with?" She just looked at me like I was an idiot. I walked
    around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple days
    instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not. Maybe its working
    for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI: There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon. (20% for
    In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most all
    manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards.


    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in the
    back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the Harbor
    Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as thumbing through
    an Alden's Christmas toy catalog. The Harbor Freight Catalog was almost
    as thick, and it was printed on almost bible thin paper. Now they
    couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item. The used to sell 15-20 different metal lathes.
    Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2 metal lathes
    they sell are the same machine with different length beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell. It didn't happen
    from covid either. It clearly and definitely started when Old Man
    Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic
    general business principles. In college even the business instructor
    who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down from the mountain
    grudgingly admitted there were exceptions. Maybe Harbor Freight needed
    to clean up a little bit, but removing more than 90% of their selection
    wasn't the right answer either.



    You stock what sells. Floor space is valuable.

    If you don't stock enough variety to get people in the door, the cost
    of floor space is irrelevant.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to k...@notreal.com on Sat Feb 19 16:42:53 2022
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 7:07:43 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 12:38:57 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 1:53:49 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:29:47 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 4:02:19 AM UTC-5, Puckdropper wrote:
    DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in
    news:a67c4f0c-fa20-435a...@googlegroups.com:

    This time of year I need a pair just to get to the pair that are in >> >> > the van. ;-)

    And another pair to change in to when the first ones get wet and you have
    to take them off for some reason.

    Actually I solved that problem with another HF product: Their 5mm nitrile >> >gloves. I wear them under gloves when I'm doing wet yardwork, blowing
    snow, etc. Keeps the wet away from the skin, keeps the hands clean, and >> >keeps the wind off if I need to do something "delicate" and have to take >> >outer gloves off.

    When I take off the nitrile pair, I leave them inside out so the perspiration
    dries. When I need to put them on again, I turn them inside in, blow into them
    to pop the fingers out and they're good to go.


    I don't get why people like 28F degree weather. It's just too darn hot to
    be useful. Get it back down around 18F and you can actually work in it >> >> without building up too much sweat!

    I just bought a new snow blower. At 245 lbs, it's about 40 lbs heavier than
    my old one. I may need to shed a layer. ;-)
    Snow blowers usually have wheels. You're not supposed to lift them!
    ;-)

    "Wheels" is kind of why I upgraded - differential steering actually - but >I'm not sure that I made my life any easier. What I gained in "ease of >steering" I lost with the extra weight.

    Most of where I blow snow is in tight places that require a lot of steering >but some places are still too tight and I have to muscle the machine around. >The new machine is heavier and longer, so I find I'm still working at least >as hard as I was before. Although, I have to say that the bigger machine >does allow me to use the full width of the bucket without leaving a strip >of snow. By that I mean that if I used more than 2/3's of the bucket on
    old machine, snow would come out of the top corner of the bucket and
    land next to where I just cleared. With the new machine I can use the full >24" and it all comes out of the chute. I'm not sure if it's the larger auger,
    larger impeller, larger engine or all three. So, theoretically, I'm making >1/3 less trips with the new machine.
    My biggest problem was ice, mostly from the snow plow. It also didn't
    like snow above the height of the bucket, which wasn't rare. In any
    serious snow storm, I'd go out a couple of times during the night to
    clear the driveway so it wouldn't clog thing to do it in one pass.

    Drift cutters can help knock down snow that is above the bucket. Ever
    wonder what those holes on the side of the bucket are for? ;-)

    When the plow leaves a huge pile at the EOD, something that's above
    the bucket, I use a shovel to slice the street side face off, a little at a time and then blow that away. After a few passes, it's down low enough
    for the bucket to handle. Of course, I've got a whole inch more bucket
    height now, so that shouldn't be as much of a problem. ;-)

    The neighbors didn't mind the noise. They were out there too.

    I'm the only one out there early in the morning and later at night.
    The neighbors don't mind because I take care of their driveways
    too.


    There were years that there had been enough snow that it was piled so
    high the blower couldn't lift more above the mounds I'd already piled
    up. Early in the season I started blowing it off the grass next to
    the driveway to get it further back so I had somewhere to put it
    later.

    I have always cleared about 2 feet onto the lawn. I like the extra room
    to open car doors, wheel out the garbage can, get the snow blower around,
    etc.

    I also blow a path around the house so I can get to the shed, back door,
    etc. The mail carriers love me because I blow a path from my neighbor's driveway across the front of my house to my stoop. They don't have to walk
    out to the street and back in to get from house to house.



    They are both Ariens machines but the old one is a Ariens Sno-Tek,
    which is a line that they came out with about 11 years ago to compete
    with the (back then) $600 class of home center choices. It's been a
    great machine - never had a single problem with it. 1 pull start every >time. Still looks good too. (It's for sale)
    Mine was pull-start but I was younger then, too. There is a reason we
    moved where it don't snow. I couldn't do it now. For certain, I
    couldn't shovel it by hand. I have enough metal in me that I couldn't
    stand the cold either. Nope. Not going back (between October and
    May).

    Ariens Deluxe 24" vs. Ariens Sno-Tek 24"

    Check out the new wheels. ;-)

    https://i.imgur.com/MPhj9lw.jpg
    The pic makes it look like there should be a doll house behind them.

    The only thing I *really* don't like about the new machine is the location
    of the control for the chute direction. It's in front of the console as opposed to behind it like on the Sno-Tek. I'm short and it's hard for me to drive the machine and reach over (and down) then spin the handle. As I mentioned,
    I'm often in tight spaces like between 2 cars, along the front of a garage, etc. so there's a lot chute maneuvering. The Sno-Tek handle was right where
    I could use it while standing upright, driving and turning.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob La Londe@21:1/5 to Ed Pawlowski on Sat Feb 19 18:34:53 2022
    On 2/19/2022 5:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 6:38 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer >>>>>>> service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will >>>>>>> not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of >>>>>>> two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man.
    The writing was on the wall.  Inventory selection has been at a
    constant decline ever since.  Clearly the son was applying turn
    rate and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore >>>>>> the fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the >>>>>> turn rate items elsewhere too.  I get less and less at Harbor
    Freight simply because they don't have the huge array of single
    use specialty tools they used to have.  At least now they have a
    website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally
    or not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening.  I went in
    to buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line.  Along with >>>>>> that trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories
    It had one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the
    shelf, so I grabbed a tag and all the accessories.  I made a point >>>>>> of handing the tag to the cashier first.  I didn't set any of my
    other stuff on the counter.  She took the tag and set it aside.
    Then she proceeded to take stuff out of my cart to ring it up.  I >>>>>> stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on that pump first."

    She replied that she didn't need to check.  She knew they didn't
    have any in stock.  I let here know I'd checked the website before >>>>>> coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have
    any, but I'll check."  Then she finally punched it in, and said,
    "Yeah only the display model."  She immediately started ringing up >>>>>> the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the
    pump it goes with?"  She just looked at me like I was an idiot.  I >>>>>> walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple
    days instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not.  Maybe its
    working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI:  There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon.  (20% >>>>>> for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most
    all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards.


    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in
    the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the
    Harbor Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as
    thumbing through an Alden's Christmas toy catalog.  The Harbor
    Freight Catalog was almost as thick, and it was printed on almost
    bible thin paper. Now they couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item.  The used to sell 15-20 different metal
    lathes. Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2
    metal lathes they sell are the same machine with different length beds. >>>>
    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell.  It didn't
    happen from covid either.  It clearly and definitely started when
    Old Man Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic
    general business principles.  In college even the business
    instructor who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down
    from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions.  Maybe
    Harbor Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more
    than 90% of their selection wasn't the right answer either.



    You stock what sells.  Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field
    bolt because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and
    you tell me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who buys
    them and its not worth it for us.  I'll say "ok," load my wife and
    kids back in the pickup truck and head into town.  While I'm in town
    I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of stopping
    next door at your grocery store for them.  Since I'm already in town I
    buy the new stove the old lady wanted, and purchase that new rifle I
    had been eyeballing in your gun rack. So because you were to stubborn
    to stock what I needed I bought a bunch of high turn rate items and a
    couple high margin items from somebody else.  Instead of having some
    stocking costs you lost a huge number of sales.

    When I get back to the farm and my mechanic asks why it took so long
    to get the simple part she needed for the combine we get to talking.
    I tell her I had to run into town for it and how much cheaper
    groceries were in town instead of Leon's Grocery store, and how I
    bought this cool new rifle over at Joe's Gun Shop instead of Leon's
    hardware store.  I might even mention how much the old lady is pleased
    about the new stove she got to pick out at Home Depot.

    The farm mechanic heard two things in that.  Leon doesn't have what we
    need, and things are cheaper in town.  She tells her husband to go to
    town for groceries, and while you are there pop over to O'Reilly Auto
    for a new starter for the truck she is fixing up.

    Floor space is valuable, but telling customers what they need is not
    important is stupid whether its said directly or indirectly.

    Here is one of those truisms that came down from the mountain for you.
    Its a heck of a lot easier to sell to the customer who walks into your
    store than the one walking down the street, and its an order of
    magnitude easier than trying to sell to the one who had to leave to
    get what they really needed somewhere else.

    You should have had that part in your own stock.  Shear pins are made to shear and if you did not have a spare it is your incompetence and lack
    of planning.  When one breaks, order from Grainger or McMaster.

    And its always good business to sneer down your nose while insulting
    your customer? They sure as hell didn't etch that one in stone and send
    it down the mountain.

    Instead of taking care of the customer whether its your vain arrogance
    and stupidity for refusing to stock a low turn rate item he WILL NEED or
    his for not already having one the fact is that its a lot harder to get
    a customer back than it is to keep them in the first place. The
    customer still walked out.

    If you don't understand it or you refuse to understand it then there is
    no point in visiting Ed's Country Hardware store either. I didn't even
    have to go there to know he won't have it, and if I ask he will treat me
    like dirt for asking. I'll just skip that place and head for town to
    get ALL of what I need.

    Just because the bank and I share ownership of an 800 million dollar
    combine it doesn't mean I have cash on hand to buy every spare part I
    should in your opinion, and dead simple items like a bolt should be
    available at any hardware store where the owner doesn't have his head up his....


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Sat Feb 19 20:28:11 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 16:42:53 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 7:07:43 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 12:38:57 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 1:53:49 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >> >> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:29:47 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 4:02:19 AM UTC-5, Puckdropper wrote: >> >> >> DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in
    news:a67c4f0c-fa20-435a...@googlegroups.com:

    This time of year I need a pair just to get to the pair that are in >> >> >> > the van. ;-)

    And another pair to change in to when the first ones get wet and you have
    to take them off for some reason.

    Actually I solved that problem with another HF product: Their 5mm nitrile
    gloves. I wear them under gloves when I'm doing wet yardwork, blowing
    snow, etc. Keeps the wet away from the skin, keeps the hands clean, and >> >> >keeps the wind off if I need to do something "delicate" and have to take >> >> >outer gloves off.

    When I take off the nitrile pair, I leave them inside out so the perspiration
    dries. When I need to put them on again, I turn them inside in, blow into them
    to pop the fingers out and they're good to go.


    I don't get why people like 28F degree weather. It's just too darn hot to
    be useful. Get it back down around 18F and you can actually work in it >> >> >> without building up too much sweat!

    I just bought a new snow blower. At 245 lbs, it's about 40 lbs heavier than
    my old one. I may need to shed a layer. ;-)
    Snow blowers usually have wheels. You're not supposed to lift them!
    ;-)

    "Wheels" is kind of why I upgraded - differential steering actually - but >> >I'm not sure that I made my life any easier. What I gained in "ease of
    steering" I lost with the extra weight.

    Most of where I blow snow is in tight places that require a lot of steering >> >but some places are still too tight and I have to muscle the machine around.
    The new machine is heavier and longer, so I find I'm still working at least >> >as hard as I was before. Although, I have to say that the bigger machine
    does allow me to use the full width of the bucket without leaving a strip >> >of snow. By that I mean that if I used more than 2/3's of the bucket on
    old machine, snow would come out of the top corner of the bucket and
    land next to where I just cleared. With the new machine I can use the full >> >24" and it all comes out of the chute. I'm not sure if it's the larger auger,
    larger impeller, larger engine or all three. So, theoretically, I'm making >> >1/3 less trips with the new machine.
    My biggest problem was ice, mostly from the snow plow. It also didn't
    like snow above the height of the bucket, which wasn't rare. In any
    serious snow storm, I'd go out a couple of times during the night to
    clear the driveway so it wouldn't clog thing to do it in one pass.

    Drift cutters can help knock down snow that is above the bucket. Ever
    wonder what those holes on the side of the bucket are for? ;-)

    They only work if it's a drift. These "drifts" were the width and
    lengths of the driveway and were bracketed by 5' of packed snow, some
    years. A 36" snowfall gets to be a drag.

    When the plow leaves a huge pile at the EOD, something that's above
    the bucket, I use a shovel to slice the street side face off, a little at a >time and then blow that away. After a few passes, it's down low enough
    for the bucket to handle. Of course, I've got a whole inch more bucket
    height now, so that shouldn't be as much of a problem. ;-)

    With the salt, the berm turns to ice and will laugh at any snow
    blower. The whole thing has to be dug out with something stronger
    than a snow shovel.

    The neighbors didn't mind the noise. They were out there too.

    I'm the only one out there early in the morning and later at night.
    The neighbors don't mind because I take care of their driveways
    too.
    ;-)

    There were years that there had been enough snow that it was piled so
    high the blower couldn't lift more above the mounds I'd already piled
    up. Early in the season I started blowing it off the grass next to
    the driveway to get it further back so I had somewhere to put it
    later.

    I have always cleared about 2 feet onto the lawn. I like the extra room
    to open car doors, wheel out the garbage can, get the snow blower around, >etc.

    I also blow a path around the house so I can get to the shed, back door,
    etc. The mail carriers love me because I blow a path from my neighbor's >driveway across the front of my house to my stoop. They don't have to walk >out to the street and back in to get from house to house.

    You get door service? I haven't seen that since I was a kid. We've
    always had a box by the street. They just drive by. If there was any
    snow in front of the box, the kept driving.


    They are both Ariens machines but the old one is a Ariens Sno-Tek,
    which is a line that they came out with about 11 years ago to compete
    with the (back then) $600 class of home center choices. It's been a
    great machine - never had a single problem with it. 1 pull start every
    time. Still looks good too. (It's for sale)
    Mine was pull-start but I was younger then, too. There is a reason we
    moved where it don't snow. I couldn't do it now. For certain, I
    couldn't shovel it by hand. I have enough metal in me that I couldn't
    stand the cold either. Nope. Not going back (between October and
    May).

    Ariens Deluxe 24" vs. Ariens Sno-Tek 24"

    Check out the new wheels. ;-)

    https://i.imgur.com/MPhj9lw.jpg
    The pic makes it look like there should be a doll house behind them.

    The only thing I *really* don't like about the new machine is the location
    of the control for the chute direction. It's in front of the console as opposed
    to behind it like on the Sno-Tek. I'm short and it's hard for me to drive the >machine and reach over (and down) then spin the handle. As I mentioned,
    I'm often in tight spaces like between 2 cars, along the front of a garage, >etc. so there's a lot chute maneuvering. The Sno-Tek handle was right where
    I could use it while standing upright, driving and turning.

    I see that. No, I wouldn't like that either. Mine was behind the
    bars. Both of those look like the control goes to the top of the
    auger chute? The crank went to the bottom of the chute and drove a
    worm gear riding on a spur gear on the chute. It tended to get jammed
    with ice. It all worked OK in dry snow but it was useless in slop. I
    had to do sloppy snow by hand. Wet snow is heavy stuff, too.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Sat Feb 19 21:00:02 2022
    On 2/19/2022 6:10 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 15:13:34 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will not >>>>>> take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of two >>>>>> stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man.
    The writing was on the wall.  Inventory selection has been at a
    constant decline ever since.  Clearly the son was applying turn rate >>>>> and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore the
    fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the turn
    rate items elsewhere too.  I get less and less at Harbor Freight
    simply because they don't have the huge array of single use specialty >>>>> tools they used to have.  At least now they have a website that
    usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally or not.  Not
    always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening.  I went in to >>>>> buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line.  Along with that >>>>> trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories  It had >>>>> one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the shelf, so I >>>>> grabbed a tag and all the accessories.  I made a point of handing the >>>>> tag to the cashier first.  I didn't set any of my other stuff on the >>>>> counter.  She took the tag and set it aside.  Then she proceeded to >>>>> take stuff out of my cart to ring it up.  I stopped her and said,
    "Lets get somebody on that pump first."

    She replied that she didn't need to check.  She knew they didn't have >>>>> any in stock.  I let here know I'd checked the website before coming. >>>>> She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have any, but
    I'll check."  Then she finally punched it in, and said, "Yeah only
    the display model."  She immediately started ringing up the
    accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the pump >>>>> it goes with?"  She just looked at me like I was an idiot.  I walked >>>>> around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple days >>>>> instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not.  Maybe its working >>>>> for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI:  There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon.  (20% for >>>>> In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most all
    manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards.


    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in the
    back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the Harbor
    Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as thumbing through
    an Alden's Christmas toy catalog.  The Harbor Freight Catalog was almost >>> as thick, and it was printed on almost bible thin paper.  Now they
    couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item.  The used to sell 15-20 different metal lathes.
    Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2 metal lathes
    they sell are the same machine with different length beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell.  It didn't happen
    from covid either.  It clearly and definitely started when Old Man
    Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic
    general business principles.  In college even the business instructor
    who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down from the mountain
    grudgingly admitted there were exceptions.  Maybe Harbor Freight needed >>> to clean up a little bit, but removing more than 90% of their selection
    wasn't the right answer either.



    You stock what sells. Floor space is valuable.

    If you don't stock enough variety to get people in the door, the cost
    of floor space is irrelevant.

    So if you buy everything, you go broke and close the doors.

    Certainly variety is a draw but you have to be able to control your
    money. I am not sure if I have ever heard of a company that started out
    offering everything. No one really knows what is going to sell with a
    start up business. So you start with inventory that will sustain the business. Add variety as business warrants.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to Ed Pawlowski on Sat Feb 19 20:54:28 2022
    On 2/19/2022 6:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 6:38 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer >>>>>>> service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will >>>>>>> not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of >>>>>>> two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man.
    The writing was on the wall.  Inventory selection has been at a
    constant decline ever since.  Clearly the son was applying turn
    rate and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore >>>>>> the fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the >>>>>> turn rate items elsewhere too.  I get less and less at Harbor
    Freight simply because they don't have the huge array of single
    use specialty tools they used to have.  At least now they have a
    website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally
    or not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening.  I went in
    to buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line.  Along with >>>>>> that trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories
    It had one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the
    shelf, so I grabbed a tag and all the accessories.  I made a point >>>>>> of handing the tag to the cashier first.  I didn't set any of my
    other stuff on the counter.  She took the tag and set it aside.
    Then she proceeded to take stuff out of my cart to ring it up.  I >>>>>> stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on that pump first."

    She replied that she didn't need to check.  She knew they didn't
    have any in stock.  I let here know I'd checked the website before >>>>>> coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have
    any, but I'll check."  Then she finally punched it in, and said,
    "Yeah only the display model."  She immediately started ringing up >>>>>> the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the
    pump it goes with?"  She just looked at me like I was an idiot.  I >>>>>> walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple
    days instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not.  Maybe its
    working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI:  There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon.  (20% >>>>>> for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most
    all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards.


    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in
    the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the
    Harbor Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as
    thumbing through an Alden's Christmas toy catalog.  The Harbor
    Freight Catalog was almost as thick, and it was printed on almost
    bible thin paper. Now they couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item.  The used to sell 15-20 different metal
    lathes. Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2
    metal lathes they sell are the same machine with different length beds. >>>>
    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell.  It didn't
    happen from covid either.  It clearly and definitely started when
    Old Man Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic
    general business principles.  In college even the business
    instructor who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down
    from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions.  Maybe
    Harbor Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more
    than 90% of their selection wasn't the right answer either.



    You stock what sells.  Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field
    bolt because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and
    you tell me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who buys
    them and its not worth it for us.  I'll say "ok," load my wife and
    kids back in the pickup truck and head into town.  While I'm in town
    I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of stopping
    next door at your grocery store for them.  Since I'm already in town I
    buy the new stove the old lady wanted, and purchase that new rifle I
    had been eyeballing in your gun rack. So because you were to stubborn
    to stock what I needed I bought a bunch of high turn rate items and a
    couple high margin items from somebody else.  Instead of having some
    stocking costs you lost a huge number of sales.

    Oh pleeeeease, that is not how the retail world works, those that remain
    in business. It is a daily occurrence that customers walk out of stores
    all over the world and empty handed every day. One does not remain in
    business by continuing to buy an item that no longer warrants space on
    the shelf or by stocking "everything" and not ever selling some of it.

    And referring back to all those lathes, 60 was it? I seriously doubt
    that those lathes were in his stock. Certainly he had access to a
    source that he could become a middle man with that variety. And of
    those 60 lathes they certainly would be shipped direct to the customer
    and not from a single source/manufacturer.

    Several woodworking stores sell and stock SawStop. You can buy a table
    saw right when you walk inside and pay and load it in your truck. BUT
    with a very popular model and is the original model, you cannot do this.
    You pay and the saw is shipped direct from one of Woodcraft's sources.
    This is why their catalog has more in it than you can go to the store
    and walk out with. That is ONE example of many.



    Floor space is valuable, but telling customers what they need is not
    important is stupid whether its said directly or indirectly.

    What is stupid in this short story you are writing. Every single store
    in the world does not tell their customers what they need or want is
    stupid. But every single store has and has always not had something
    that a customer wanted and that is because it does not fit in the
    business plan. I have only heard a store employee say, sorry/or we do
    not stock that. That tells you the situation. You are not getting it
    there. And probably not the quart of milk that your wife told you to go
    get. He does not go on to say, what they/you need is not important,
    like you said, that would be stupid. Why would anyone think would
    happen? That would be directly. Iindirectly he is probably thinking
    that he needs to get the milk at the next store.

    When you have competition and yes every like business is competition,
    whether you are the best or the worst. You have to first have a sound
    business model and stick to it. Pleasing the customer is an important
    step but absolutely not the only important step necessary to have a
    sustainable business.

    YOU can please some of the people some of the time,... you know the rest.




    Here is one of those truisms that came down from the mountain for you.
    Its a heck of a lot easier to sell to the customer who walks into your
    store than the one walking down the street, and its an order of
    magnitude easier than trying to sell to the one who had to leave to
    get what they really needed somewhere else.

    DOH! But one of those other customers that came from one of those other
    stores wanks in to your business and buys what you have.

    You CANNOT be everything to every customer.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to Bob La Londe on Sat Feb 19 21:00:52 2022
    On 2/19/2022 7:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 5:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 6:38 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst
    customer service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship. >>>>>>>> They will not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.
    The staff of two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and >>>>>>>> independent.


    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man. >>>>>>> The writing was on the wall.  Inventory selection has been at a >>>>>>> constant decline ever since.  Clearly the son was applying turn >>>>>>> rate and margin principles learned in business classes that
    ignore the fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they >>>>>>> buy the turn rate items elsewhere too.  I get less and less at
    Harbor Freight simply because they don't have the huge array of
    single use specialty tools they used to have.  At least now they >>>>>>> have a website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock
    locally or not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening.  I went in >>>>>>> to buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line.  Along with >>>>>>> that trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories >>>>>>> It had one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the
    shelf, so I grabbed a tag and all the accessories.  I made a
    point of handing the tag to the cashier first.  I didn't set any >>>>>>> of my other stuff on the counter.  She took the tag and set it
    aside. Then she proceeded to take stuff out of my cart to ring it >>>>>>> up.  I stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on that pump first." >>>>>>>
    She replied that she didn't need to check.  She knew they didn't >>>>>>> have any in stock.  I let here know I'd checked the website
    before coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we
    don't have any, but I'll check."  Then she finally punched it in, >>>>>>> and said, "Yeah only the display model."  She immediately started >>>>>>> ringing up the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the
    pump it goes with?"  She just looked at me like I was an idiot. >>>>>>> I walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple
    days instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not.  Maybe its
    working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI:  There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon.  (20% >>>>>>> for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most
    all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards.


    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in
    the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the
    Harbor Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as
    thumbing through an Alden's Christmas toy catalog.  The Harbor
    Freight Catalog was almost as thick, and it was printed on almost
    bible thin paper. Now they couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item.  The used to sell 15-20 different metal
    lathes. Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2
    metal lathes they sell are the same machine with different length
    beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell.  It didn't
    happen from covid either.  It clearly and definitely started when
    Old Man Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic
    general business principles.  In college even the business
    instructor who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down
    from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions.  Maybe >>>>> Harbor Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more
    than 90% of their selection wasn't the right answer either.



    You stock what sells.  Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field
    bolt because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and
    you tell me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who
    buys them and its not worth it for us.  I'll say "ok," load my wife
    and kids back in the pickup truck and head into town.  While I'm in
    town I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of
    stopping next door at your grocery store for them.  Since I'm already
    in town I buy the new stove the old lady wanted, and purchase that
    new rifle I had been eyeballing in your gun rack. So because you were
    to stubborn to stock what I needed I bought a bunch of high turn rate
    items and a couple high margin items from somebody else.  Instead of
    having some stocking costs you lost a huge number of sales.

    When I get back to the farm and my mechanic asks why it took so long
    to get the simple part she needed for the combine we get to talking.
    I tell her I had to run into town for it and how much cheaper
    groceries were in town instead of Leon's Grocery store, and how I
    bought this cool new rifle over at Joe's Gun Shop instead of Leon's
    hardware store.  I might even mention how much the old lady is
    pleased about the new stove she got to pick out at Home Depot.

    The farm mechanic heard two things in that.  Leon doesn't have what
    we need, and things are cheaper in town.  She tells her husband to go
    to town for groceries, and while you are there pop over to O'Reilly
    Auto for a new starter for the truck she is fixing up.

    Floor space is valuable, but telling customers what they need is not
    important is stupid whether its said directly or indirectly.

    Here is one of those truisms that came down from the mountain for
    you. Its a heck of a lot easier to sell to the customer who walks
    into your store than the one walking down the street, and its an
    order of magnitude easier than trying to sell to the one who had to
    leave to get what they really needed somewhere else.

    You should have had that part in your own stock.  Shear pins are made
    to shear and if you did not have a spare it is your incompetence and
    lack of planning.  When one breaks, order from Grainger or McMaster.

    And its always good business to sneer down your nose while insulting
    your customer?  They sure as hell didn't etch that one in stone and send
    it down the mountain.


    Now you are just being a comedian.





    Instead of taking care of the customer whether its your vain arrogance
    and stupidity for refusing to stock a low turn rate item he WILL NEED or
    his for not already having one the fact is that its a lot harder to get
    a customer back than it is to keep them in the first place.  The
    customer still walked out.

    If you don't understand it or you refuse to understand it then there is
    no point in visiting Ed's Country Hardware store either.  I didn't even
    have to go there to know he won't have it, and if I ask he will treat me
    like dirt for asking.  I'll just skip that place and head for town to
    get ALL of what I need.

    Just because the bank and I share ownership of an 800 million dollar
    combine it doesn't mean I have cash on hand to buy every spare part I
    should in your opinion, and dead simple items like a bolt should be
    available at any hardware store where the owner doesn't have his head up his....



    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Pawlowski@21:1/5 to Bob La Londe on Sat Feb 19 22:48:16 2022
    On 2/19/2022 8:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 5:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

    If you don't understand it or you refuse to understand it then there is
    no point in visiting Ed's Country Hardware store either.  I didn't even
    have to go there to know he won't have it, and if I ask he will treat me
    like dirt for asking.  I'll just skip that place and head for town to
    get ALL of what I need.

    Just because the bank and I share ownership of an 800 million dollar
    combine it doesn't mean I have cash on hand to buy every spare part I
    should in your opinion, and dead simple items like a bolt should be
    available at any hardware store where the owner doesn't have his head up his....


    It is a consumable. If you don't have a shear pin, a commonly used item
    for your machine you are not operating very smart and the bank would be
    smart to foreclose. Don't blame your incompetence on my lack of $2
    shear pins.

    When I had to use one of the two that came with my snowblower I bought
    two more at Lowes. Call John Deere.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to k...@notreal.com on Sat Feb 19 19:36:24 2022
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 8:28:19 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 16:42:53 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 7:07:43 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 12:38:57 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 1:53:49 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:29:47 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 4:02:19 AM UTC-5, Puckdropper wrote: >> >> >> DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in
    news:a67c4f0c-fa20-435a...@googlegroups.com:

    This time of year I need a pair just to get to the pair that are in
    the van. ;-)

    And another pair to change in to when the first ones get wet and you have
    to take them off for some reason.

    Actually I solved that problem with another HF product: Their 5mm nitrile
    gloves. I wear them under gloves when I'm doing wet yardwork, blowing >> >> >snow, etc. Keeps the wet away from the skin, keeps the hands clean, and
    keeps the wind off if I need to do something "delicate" and have to take
    outer gloves off.

    When I take off the nitrile pair, I leave them inside out so the perspiration
    dries. When I need to put them on again, I turn them inside in, blow into them
    to pop the fingers out and they're good to go.


    I don't get why people like 28F degree weather. It's just too darn hot to
    be useful. Get it back down around 18F and you can actually work in it
    without building up too much sweat!

    I just bought a new snow blower. At 245 lbs, it's about 40 lbs heavier than
    my old one. I may need to shed a layer. ;-)
    Snow blowers usually have wheels. You're not supposed to lift them!
    ;-)

    "Wheels" is kind of why I upgraded - differential steering actually - but >> >I'm not sure that I made my life any easier. What I gained in "ease of
    steering" I lost with the extra weight.

    Most of where I blow snow is in tight places that require a lot of steering
    but some places are still too tight and I have to muscle the machine around.
    The new machine is heavier and longer, so I find I'm still working at least
    as hard as I was before. Although, I have to say that the bigger machine >> >does allow me to use the full width of the bucket without leaving a strip >> >of snow. By that I mean that if I used more than 2/3's of the bucket on >> >old machine, snow would come out of the top corner of the bucket and
    land next to where I just cleared. With the new machine I can use the full
    24" and it all comes out of the chute. I'm not sure if it's the larger auger,
    larger impeller, larger engine or all three. So, theoretically, I'm making
    1/3 less trips with the new machine.
    My biggest problem was ice, mostly from the snow plow. It also didn't
    like snow above the height of the bucket, which wasn't rare. In any
    serious snow storm, I'd go out a couple of times during the night to
    clear the driveway so it wouldn't clog thing to do it in one pass.

    Drift cutters can help knock down snow that is above the bucket. Ever >wonder what those holes on the side of the bucket are for? ;-)
    They only work if it's a drift. These "drifts" were the width and
    lengths of the driveway and were bracketed by 5' of packed snow, some
    years. A 36" snowfall gets to be a drag.
    When the plow leaves a huge pile at the EOD, something that's above
    the bucket, I use a shovel to slice the street side face off, a little at a >time and then blow that away. After a few passes, it's down low enough
    for the bucket to handle. Of course, I've got a whole inch more bucket >height now, so that shouldn't be as much of a problem. ;-)
    With the salt, the berm turns to ice and will laugh at any snow
    blower. The whole thing has to be dug out with something stronger
    than a snow shovel.

    We get salt, we get berms, we get ice. Just dealt with berms that were higher than the bucket by a least 6" inches. Cleared them with a shovel shave and blow. 3 EODs and some street work.

    There's a hydrant under there someplace. This was after a thaw and refreeze
    and I'm sure you know what the does to a snow plow berm.

    https://i.imgur.com/TYh1KkP.jpg

    Whoomp! There it is!

    https://i.imgur.com/erzljCh.jpg


    The neighbors didn't mind the noise. They were out there too.

    I'm the only one out there early in the morning and later at night.
    The neighbors don't mind because I take care of their driveways
    too.
    ;-)

    There were years that there had been enough snow that it was piled so
    high the blower couldn't lift more above the mounds I'd already piled
    up. Early in the season I started blowing it off the grass next to
    the driveway to get it further back so I had somewhere to put it
    later.

    I have always cleared about 2 feet onto the lawn. I like the extra room
    to open car doors, wheel out the garbage can, get the snow blower around, >etc.

    I also blow a path around the house so I can get to the shed, back door, >etc. The mail carriers love me because I blow a path from my neighbor's >driveway across the front of my house to my stoop. They don't have to walk >out to the street and back in to get from house to house.

    You get door service? I haven't seen that since I was a kid. We've
    always had a box by the street. They just drive by. If there was any
    snow in front of the box, the kept driving.

    Door service for mail, newspaper, packages, etc. Up until the previous
    guy retired, the paper was "doored" in inclement weather.

    ("Doored" is what we called it when I delivered papers in NYC. You
    put the paper between the storm door and the entry door to keep it
    dry. Takes longer but the tips made it worth it.)

    We've basically had 2 mail carriers since we moved here 30+ years ago.
    The first one watched our kids grow up and when we see him around town
    he always wants an update. (He ushers at some of the local theaters and
    AAA ballpark, so we run into him a couple of times a year.)

    The current one just about always stops to chat if I'm outside. She's really nice.

    I'm going to guess that you have no clue who delivers your mail or
    at least don't know anything about them or their family.



    They are both Ariens machines but the old one is a Ariens Sno-Tek,
    which is a line that they came out with about 11 years ago to compete
    with the (back then) $600 class of home center choices. It's been a
    great machine - never had a single problem with it. 1 pull start every
    time. Still looks good too. (It's for sale)
    Mine was pull-start but I was younger then, too. There is a reason we
    moved where it don't snow. I couldn't do it now. For certain, I
    couldn't shovel it by hand. I have enough metal in me that I couldn't
    stand the cold either. Nope. Not going back (between October and
    May).

    Ariens Deluxe 24" vs. Ariens Sno-Tek 24"

    Check out the new wheels. ;-)

    https://i.imgur.com/MPhj9lw.jpg
    The pic makes it look like there should be a doll house behind them.

    The only thing I *really* don't like about the new machine is the location >of the control for the chute direction. It's in front of the console as opposed
    to behind it like on the Sno-Tek. I'm short and it's hard for me to drive the
    machine and reach over (and down) then spin the handle. As I mentioned,
    I'm often in tight spaces like between 2 cars, along the front of a garage, >etc. so there's a lot chute maneuvering. The Sno-Tek handle was right where >I could use it while standing upright, driving and turning.
    I see that. No, I wouldn't like that either. Mine was behind the
    bars. Both of those look like the control goes to the top of the
    auger chute? The crank went to the bottom of the chute and drove a
    worm gear riding on a spur gear on the chute. It tended to get jammed
    with ice. It all worked OK in dry snow but it was useless in slop. I
    had to do sloppy snow by hand. Wet snow is heavy stuff, too.

    Yes, they both control the chute from the top. That part works fine.
    There are some Ariens models that have "Quick Turn" levered system
    instead of the "Ice Drill" style like mine. The lever is mounted on the console. I'm going to see if mine can be modified but I doubt it.

    If you look at the Sno-Tek you'll see that the deflector has 2 metal "U" brackets attached to it. The small one is the original, the big one is
    my mod. The first year Sno-Tek didn't come with a remote lever for
    the deflector and I couldn't reach the "handle" from behind the console,
    so I extended it.

    Now I have remote deflector control but I hate the chute control. Can't friggin' win.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Sat Feb 19 23:02:04 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 19:36:24 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 8:28:19 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 16:42:53 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 7:07:43 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >> >> On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 12:38:57 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 1:53:49 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:29:47 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 4:02:19 AM UTC-5, Puckdropper wrote:
    DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in
    news:a67c4f0c-fa20-435a...@googlegroups.com:

    This time of year I need a pair just to get to the pair that are in
    the van. ;-)

    And another pair to change in to when the first ones get wet and you have
    to take them off for some reason.

    Actually I solved that problem with another HF product: Their 5mm nitrile
    gloves. I wear them under gloves when I'm doing wet yardwork, blowing >> >> >> >snow, etc. Keeps the wet away from the skin, keeps the hands clean, and
    keeps the wind off if I need to do something "delicate" and have to take
    outer gloves off.

    When I take off the nitrile pair, I leave them inside out so the perspiration
    dries. When I need to put them on again, I turn them inside in, blow into them
    to pop the fingers out and they're good to go.


    I don't get why people like 28F degree weather. It's just too darn hot to
    be useful. Get it back down around 18F and you can actually work in it
    without building up too much sweat!

    I just bought a new snow blower. At 245 lbs, it's about 40 lbs heavier than
    my old one. I may need to shed a layer. ;-)
    Snow blowers usually have wheels. You're not supposed to lift them!
    ;-)

    "Wheels" is kind of why I upgraded - differential steering actually - but
    I'm not sure that I made my life any easier. What I gained in "ease of >> >> >steering" I lost with the extra weight.

    Most of where I blow snow is in tight places that require a lot of steering
    but some places are still too tight and I have to muscle the machine around.
    The new machine is heavier and longer, so I find I'm still working at least
    as hard as I was before. Although, I have to say that the bigger machine >> >> >does allow me to use the full width of the bucket without leaving a strip
    of snow. By that I mean that if I used more than 2/3's of the bucket on >> >> >old machine, snow would come out of the top corner of the bucket and
    land next to where I just cleared. With the new machine I can use the full
    24" and it all comes out of the chute. I'm not sure if it's the larger auger,
    larger impeller, larger engine or all three. So, theoretically, I'm making
    1/3 less trips with the new machine.
    My biggest problem was ice, mostly from the snow plow. It also didn't
    like snow above the height of the bucket, which wasn't rare. In any
    serious snow storm, I'd go out a couple of times during the night to
    clear the driveway so it wouldn't clog thing to do it in one pass.

    Drift cutters can help knock down snow that is above the bucket. Ever
    wonder what those holes on the side of the bucket are for? ;-)
    They only work if it's a drift. These "drifts" were the width and
    lengths of the driveway and were bracketed by 5' of packed snow, some
    years. A 36" snowfall gets to be a drag.
    When the plow leaves a huge pile at the EOD, something that's above
    the bucket, I use a shovel to slice the street side face off, a little at a >> >time and then blow that away. After a few passes, it's down low enough
    for the bucket to handle. Of course, I've got a whole inch more bucket
    height now, so that shouldn't be as much of a problem. ;-)
    With the salt, the berm turns to ice and will laugh at any snow
    blower. The whole thing has to be dug out with something stronger
    than a snow shovel.

    We get salt, we get berms, we get ice. Just dealt with berms that were higher >than the bucket by a least 6" inches. Cleared them with a shovel shave and >blow. 3 EODs and some street work.

    There's a hydrant under there someplace. This was after a thaw and refreeze >and I'm sure you know what the does to a snow plow berm.

    https://i.imgur.com/TYh1KkP.jpg

    Whoomp! There it is!

    https://i.imgur.com/erzljCh.jpg


    That just looks like snow. In a smallish storm, the plows would pack
    the driveway waist high with ice. It took a garden shovel to get
    through it. A digging bar would have been a better tool but would
    wreck the driveway.

    Large storms would usually drop a fluffier snow which was easier until
    it went over the impeller.

    The neighbors didn't mind the noise. They were out there too.

    I'm the only one out there early in the morning and later at night.
    The neighbors don't mind because I take care of their driveways
    too.
    ;-)

    There were years that there had been enough snow that it was piled so
    high the blower couldn't lift more above the mounds I'd already piled
    up. Early in the season I started blowing it off the grass next to
    the driveway to get it further back so I had somewhere to put it
    later.

    I have always cleared about 2 feet onto the lawn. I like the extra room
    to open car doors, wheel out the garbage can, get the snow blower around, >> >etc.

    I also blow a path around the house so I can get to the shed, back door,
    etc. The mail carriers love me because I blow a path from my neighbor's
    driveway across the front of my house to my stoop. They don't have to walk >> >out to the street and back in to get from house to house.

    You get door service? I haven't seen that since I was a kid. We've
    always had a box by the street. They just drive by. If there was any
    snow in front of the box, the kept driving.

    Door service for mail, newspaper, packages, etc. Up until the previous
    guy retired, the paper was "doored" in inclement weather.

    The post office doesn't allow it for new routes. It's been that way
    for a long time. We have mail boxes by the street but new
    developments have to have a central set of boxes for everyone in the development. Not even at the road.

    ("Doored" is what we called it when I delivered papers in NYC. You
    put the paper between the storm door and the entry door to keep it
    dry. Takes longer but the tips made it worth it.)

    I did that, though half my route was apartments with an enclosed foyer
    (for lack of a better word) for four units. I had to deliver it to
    the door, inside the foyer.

    We've basically had 2 mail carriers since we moved here 30+ years ago.
    The first one watched our kids grow up and when we see him around town
    he always wants an update. (He ushers at some of the local theaters and
    AAA ballpark, so we run into him a couple of times a year.)

    We have different carriers every day. Well, at least four during the
    week. They're all nice.

    The current one just about always stops to chat if I'm outside. She's really >nice.

    I'm going to guess that you have no clue who delivers your mail or
    at least don't know anything about them or their family.

    No, I don't see them at the theater but I recognize them and wave when
    they go by. They do come to the front door with large (= won't fit in
    the box) and ring the bell.


    They are both Ariens machines but the old one is a Ariens Sno-Tek,
    which is a line that they came out with about 11 years ago to compete
    with the (back then) $600 class of home center choices. It's been a
    great machine - never had a single problem with it. 1 pull start every >> >> >time. Still looks good too. (It's for sale)
    Mine was pull-start but I was younger then, too. There is a reason we
    moved where it don't snow. I couldn't do it now. For certain, I
    couldn't shovel it by hand. I have enough metal in me that I couldn't
    stand the cold either. Nope. Not going back (between October and
    May).

    Ariens Deluxe 24" vs. Ariens Sno-Tek 24"

    Check out the new wheels. ;-)

    https://i.imgur.com/MPhj9lw.jpg
    The pic makes it look like there should be a doll house behind them.

    The only thing I *really* don't like about the new machine is the location >> >of the control for the chute direction. It's in front of the console as opposed
    to behind it like on the Sno-Tek. I'm short and it's hard for me to drive the
    machine and reach over (and down) then spin the handle. As I mentioned,
    I'm often in tight spaces like between 2 cars, along the front of a garage, >> >etc. so there's a lot chute maneuvering. The Sno-Tek handle was right where >> >I could use it while standing upright, driving and turning.
    I see that. No, I wouldn't like that either. Mine was behind the
    bars. Both of those look like the control goes to the top of the
    auger chute? The crank went to the bottom of the chute and drove a
    worm gear riding on a spur gear on the chute. It tended to get jammed
    with ice. It all worked OK in dry snow but it was useless in slop. I
    had to do sloppy snow by hand. Wet snow is heavy stuff, too.

    Yes, they both control the chute from the top. That part works fine.
    There are some Ariens models that have "Quick Turn" levered system
    instead of the "Ice Drill" style like mine. The lever is mounted on the >console. I'm going to see if mine can be modified but I doubt it.

    If you look at the Sno-Tek you'll see that the deflector has 2 metal "U" >brackets attached to it. The small one is the original, the big one is
    my mod. The first year Sno-Tek didn't come with a remote lever for
    the deflector and I couldn't reach the "handle" from behind the console,
    so I extended it.

    Now I have remote deflector control but I hate the chute control. Can't >friggin' win.

    Mine didn't have the chute control. It was a manual setting with a
    large wingnut to adjust the distance. It was a pretty basic unit, comparatively.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 19 23:29:51 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:54:28 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 6:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 6:38 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer >>>>>>>> service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will >>>>>>>> not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of >>>>>>>> two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent. >>>>>>>

    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man. >>>>>>> The writing was on the wall. Inventory selection has been at a
    constant decline ever since. Clearly the son was applying turn
    rate and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore >>>>>>> the fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the >>>>>>> turn rate items elsewhere too. I get less and less at Harbor
    Freight simply because they don't have the huge array of single
    use specialty tools they used to have. At least now they have a >>>>>>> website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally >>>>>>> or not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening. I went in >>>>>>> to buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line. Along with >>>>>>> that trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories >>>>>>> It had one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the
    shelf, so I grabbed a tag and all the accessories. I made a point >>>>>>> of handing the tag to the cashier first. I didn't set any of my >>>>>>> other stuff on the counter. She took the tag and set it aside.
    Then she proceeded to take stuff out of my cart to ring it up. I >>>>>>> stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on that pump first."

    She replied that she didn't need to check. She knew they didn't >>>>>>> have any in stock. I let here know I'd checked the website before >>>>>>> coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have >>>>>>> any, but I'll check." Then she finally punched it in, and said, >>>>>>> "Yeah only the display model." She immediately started ringing up >>>>>>> the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the
    pump it goes with?" She just looked at me like I was an idiot. I >>>>>>> walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple
    days instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not. Maybe its
    working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI: There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon. (20% >>>>>>> for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most
    all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards.


    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in
    the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the
    Harbor Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as
    thumbing through an Alden's Christmas toy catalog. The Harbor
    Freight Catalog was almost as thick, and it was printed on almost
    bible thin paper. Now they couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item. The used to sell 15-20 different metal
    lathes. Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2
    metal lathes they sell are the same machine with different length beds. >>>>>
    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell. It didn't
    happen from covid either. It clearly and definitely started when
    Old Man Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic
    general business principles. In college even the business
    instructor who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down
    from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions. Maybe
    Harbor Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more
    than 90% of their selection wasn't the right answer either.



    You stock what sells. Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field
    bolt because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and
    you tell me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who buys
    them and its not worth it for us. I'll say "ok," load my wife and
    kids back in the pickup truck and head into town. While I'm in town
    I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of stopping
    next door at your grocery store for them. Since I'm already in town I
    buy the new stove the old lady wanted, and purchase that new rifle I
    had been eyeballing in your gun rack. So because you were to stubborn
    to stock what I needed I bought a bunch of high turn rate items and a
    couple high margin items from somebody else. Instead of having some
    stocking costs you lost a huge number of sales.

    Oh pleeeeease, that is not how the retail world works, those that remain
    in business. It is a daily occurrence that customers walk out of stores
    all over the world and empty handed every day. One does not remain in >business by continuing to buy an item that no longer warrants space on
    the shelf or by stocking "everything" and not ever selling some of it.

    And referring back to all those lathes, 60 was it? I seriously doubt
    that those lathes were in his stock. Certainly he had access to a
    source that he could become a middle man with that variety. And of
    those 60 lathes they certainly would be shipped direct to the customer
    and not from a single source/manufacturer.

    Several woodworking stores sell and stock SawStop. You can buy a table
    saw right when you walk inside and pay and load it in your truck. BUT
    with a very popular model and is the original model, you cannot do this.
    You pay and the saw is shipped direct from one of Woodcraft's sources.
    This is why their catalog has more in it than you can go to the store
    and walk out with. That is ONE example of many.

    I was the local Woodcraft today. They had three models of SSs in
    stock. They didn't have any of the Laguna saws in stock but sold one
    anyway. ;-) They also had all three models (16/32. 19/36, and 25/50)
    of the Supermax drum sanders and a couple of Jets. I didn't know that
    drum sanders were so popular.

    They were short of the mid/high end lathes because the lead time is so
    long, at least three months, and they're selling like hotcakes. They
    had four mobility kits for the Revo 18/36 ($700 for wheels) on the
    floor waiting for something to put them on.

    Of course they can't carry everything but they keep a lot more
    expensive inventory in the store than one would expect. OTOH, their
    Festool inventory is really shabby, particularly accessories.


    Floor space is valuable, but telling customers what they need is not
    important is stupid whether its said directly or indirectly.

    What is stupid in this short story you are writing. Every single store
    in the world does not tell their customers what they need or want is
    stupid. But every single store has and has always not had something
    that a customer wanted and that is because it does not fit in the
    business plan. I have only heard a store employee say, sorry/or we do
    not stock that. That tells you the situation. You are not getting it
    there. And probably not the quart of milk that your wife told you to go
    get. He does not go on to say, what they/you need is not important,
    like you said, that would be stupid. Why would anyone think would
    happen? That would be directly. Iindirectly he is probably thinking
    that he needs to get the milk at the next store.

    When you have competition and yes every like business is competition,
    whether you are the best or the worst. You have to first have a sound >business model and stick to it. Pleasing the customer is an important
    step but absolutely not the only important step necessary to have a >sustainable business.

    YOU can please some of the people some of the time,... you know the rest.




    Here is one of those truisms that came down from the mountain for you.
    Its a heck of a lot easier to sell to the customer who walks into your
    store than the one walking down the street, and its an order of
    magnitude easier than trying to sell to the one who had to leave to
    get what they really needed somewhere else.

    DOH! But one of those other customers that came from one of those other >stores wanks in to your business and buys what you have.

    You CANNOT be everything to every customer.





    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 19 23:33:07 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 21:00:02 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 6:10 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 15:13:34 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer >>>>>>> service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not >>>>>>> take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two >>>>>>> stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man.
    The writing was on the wall. Inventory selection has been at a
    constant decline ever since. Clearly the son was applying turn rate >>>>>> and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore the
    fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the turn >>>>>> rate items elsewhere too. I get less and less at Harbor Freight
    simply because they don't have the huge array of single use specialty >>>>>> tools they used to have. At least now they have a website that
    usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally or not. Not
    always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening. I went in to >>>>>> buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line. Along with that >>>>>> trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories It had >>>>>> one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the shelf, so I >>>>>> grabbed a tag and all the accessories. I made a point of handing the >>>>>> tag to the cashier first. I didn't set any of my other stuff on the >>>>>> counter. She took the tag and set it aside. Then she proceeded to >>>>>> take stuff out of my cart to ring it up. I stopped her and said,
    "Lets get somebody on that pump first."

    She replied that she didn't need to check. She knew they didn't have >>>>>> any in stock. I let here know I'd checked the website before coming. >>>>>> She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have any, but >>>>>> I'll check." Then she finally punched it in, and said, "Yeah only >>>>>> the display model." She immediately started ringing up the
    accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the pump >>>>>> it goes with?" She just looked at me like I was an idiot. I walked >>>>>> around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple days >>>>>> instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not. Maybe its working >>>>>> for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI: There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon. (20% for >>>>>> In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most all >>>>> manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards.


    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in the >>>> back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the Harbor
    Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as thumbing through >>>> an Alden's Christmas toy catalog. The Harbor Freight Catalog was almost >>>> as thick, and it was printed on almost bible thin paper. Now they
    couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item. The used to sell 15-20 different metal lathes. >>>> Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2 metal lathes >>>> they sell are the same machine with different length beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell. It didn't happen >>>> from covid either. It clearly and definitely started when Old Man
    Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic
    general business principles. In college even the business instructor
    who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down from the mountain >>>> grudgingly admitted there were exceptions. Maybe Harbor Freight needed >>>> to clean up a little bit, but removing more than 90% of their selection >>>> wasn't the right answer either.



    You stock what sells. Floor space is valuable.

    If you don't stock enough variety to get people in the door, the cost
    of floor space is irrelevant.

    So if you buy everything, you go broke and close the doors.

    Evidently there is a happy medium. I don't know if HF is there,
    mainly because there isn't much there I want.

    Certainly variety is a draw but you have to be able to control your
    money. I am not sure if I have ever heard of a company that started out
    offering everything. No one really knows what is going to sell with a
    start up business. So you start with inventory that will sustain the >business. Add variety as business warrants.

    HF isn't a new business. It seems they're always in trouble.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. Clarke@21:1/5 to Ed Pawlowski on Sat Feb 19 23:37:55 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 22:48:16 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 8:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 5:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

    If you don't understand it or you refuse to understand it then there is
    no point in visiting Ed's Country Hardware store either.  I didn't even
    have to go there to know he won't have it, and if I ask he will treat me
    like dirt for asking.  I'll just skip that place and head for town to
    get ALL of what I need.

    Just because the bank and I share ownership of an 800 million dollar
    combine it doesn't mean I have cash on hand to buy every spare part I
    should in your opinion, and dead simple items like a bolt should be
    available at any hardware store where the owner doesn't have his head up
    his....


    It is a consumable. If you don't have a shear pin, a commonly used item
    for your machine you are not operating very smart and the bank would be
    smart to foreclose. Don't blame your incompetence on my lack of $2
    shear pins.

    When I had to use one of the two that came with my snowblower I bought
    two more at Lowes. Call John Deere.

    Did Ed sell him the combine? If not then why does he expect Ed to
    stock parts for it?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Puckdropper@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Sun Feb 20 09:07:28 2022
    DerbyDad03 <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote in news:075665ed-29e1-4135-b97d-557a26cc807en@googlegroups.com:

    Actually I solved that problem with another HF product: Their 5mm
    nitrile gloves. I wear them under gloves when I'm doing wet yardwork,
    blowing snow, etc. Keeps the wet away from the skin, keeps the hands
    clean, and keeps the wind off if I need to do something "delicate" and
    have to take outer gloves off.

    When I take off the nitrile pair, I leave them inside out so the
    perspiration dries. When I need to put them on again, I turn them
    inside in, blow into them to pop the fingers out and they're good to
    go.

    Don't your hands sweat? I never can use the same pair of Nitrile gloves twice...even though I've tried.


    I just bought a new snow blower. At 245 lbs, it's about 40 lbs heavier
    than my old one. I may need to shed a layer. ;-)


    Ooh, congrats on the new toy--uh tool. I've got an old one that my
    Grandpa bought used and it's done a great job these last two winter
    storms. I just didn't know enough about the Tecumseh HS50 engine to get
    it going again, so I replaced it with a very nice Predator from Harbor
    Freight.

    Puckdropper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Puckdropper@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Sun Feb 20 09:16:34 2022
    krw@notreal.com wrote in
    news:cie21h17ujp06238nl8j69ktjqokpjmpsk@4ax.com:


    Might as well go out and work. My house won't maintain temperature
    below about 25F. Set-backs are a silly idea at anything below 40-50F.

    I walk three hours every morning (when it's not raining). I get cold
    at anything between 35 and 50ish. Below 35, I don't sweat much and it doesn't matter above 50. This time of year the temperature can easily
    go up 20F during that time so it's hard to know whether to wear
    gloves.


    I find 30-40 tricky. It feels colder than it does at 25 for some reason.
    Maybe it's the humidity? Usually 30 involves melting and thawing, even if
    we don't have snow.

    I've got one set of gloves that fit nicely in my coat pocket. Thick enough
    to be warm above 20F, thin enough to stuff in the pocket and forget about.
    I wish I could find another couple pairs, I tore these ones up quite
    quickly. (They were cheap.)

    Puckdropper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Bob La Londe on Sun Feb 20 07:08:06 2022
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 8:34:57 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 5:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 6:38 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer >>>>>>> service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will >>>>>>> not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of >>>>>>> two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent. >>>>>>

    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man. >>>>>> The writing was on the wall. Inventory selection has been at a
    constant decline ever since. Clearly the son was applying turn
    rate and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore >>>>>> the fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the >>>>>> turn rate items elsewhere too. I get less and less at Harbor
    Freight simply because they don't have the huge array of single
    use specialty tools they used to have. At least now they have a >>>>>> website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally >>>>>> or not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening. I went in >>>>>> to buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line. Along with >>>>>> that trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories >>>>>> It had one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the
    shelf, so I grabbed a tag and all the accessories. I made a point >>>>>> of handing the tag to the cashier first. I didn't set any of my >>>>>> other stuff on the counter. She took the tag and set it aside.
    Then she proceeded to take stuff out of my cart to ring it up. I >>>>>> stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on that pump first."

    She replied that she didn't need to check. She knew they didn't >>>>>> have any in stock. I let here know I'd checked the website before >>>>>> coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have >>>>>> any, but I'll check." Then she finally punched it in, and said, >>>>>> "Yeah only the display model." She immediately started ringing up >>>>>> the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the
    pump it goes with?" She just looked at me like I was an idiot. I >>>>>> walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple
    days instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not. Maybe its
    working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI: There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon. (20% >>>>>> for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most
    all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards.


    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in
    the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the
    Harbor Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as
    thumbing through an Alden's Christmas toy catalog. The Harbor
    Freight Catalog was almost as thick, and it was printed on almost
    bible thin paper. Now they couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item. The used to sell 15-20 different metal
    lathes. Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2
    metal lathes they sell are the same machine with different length beds. >>>>
    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell. It didn't
    happen from covid either. It clearly and definitely started when
    Old Man Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic
    general business principles. In college even the business
    instructor who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down
    from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions. Maybe
    Harbor Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more
    than 90% of their selection wasn't the right answer either.



    You stock what sells. Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field
    bolt because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and
    you tell me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who buys
    them and its not worth it for us. I'll say "ok," load my wife and
    kids back in the pickup truck and head into town. While I'm in town
    I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of stopping
    next door at your grocery store for them. Since I'm already in town I
    buy the new stove the old lady wanted, and purchase that new rifle I
    had been eyeballing in your gun rack. So because you were to stubborn
    to stock what I needed I bought a bunch of high turn rate items and a
    couple high margin items from somebody else. Instead of having some
    stocking costs you lost a huge number of sales.

    When I get back to the farm and my mechanic asks why it took so long
    to get the simple part she needed for the combine we get to talking.
    I tell her I had to run into town for it and how much cheaper
    groceries were in town instead of Leon's Grocery store, and how I
    bought this cool new rifle over at Joe's Gun Shop instead of Leon's
    hardware store. I might even mention how much the old lady is pleased
    about the new stove she got to pick out at Home Depot.

    The farm mechanic heard two things in that. Leon doesn't have what we
    need, and things are cheaper in town. She tells her husband to go to
    town for groceries, and while you are there pop over to O'Reilly Auto
    for a new starter for the truck she is fixing up.

    Floor space is valuable, but telling customers what they need is not
    important is stupid whether its said directly or indirectly.

    Here is one of those truisms that came down from the mountain for you.
    Its a heck of a lot easier to sell to the customer who walks into your
    store than the one walking down the street, and its an order of
    magnitude easier than trying to sell to the one who had to leave to
    get what they really needed somewhere else.

    You should have had that part in your own stock. Shear pins are made to shear and if you did not have a spare it is your incompetence and lack
    of planning. When one breaks, order from Grainger or McMaster.
    And its always good business to sneer down your nose while insulting
    your customer? They sure as hell didn't etch that one in stone and send
    it down the mountain.

    Instead of taking care of the customer whether its your vain arrogance
    and stupidity for refusing to stock a low turn rate item he WILL NEED or
    his for not already having one the fact is that its a lot harder to get
    a customer back than it is to keep them in the first place. The
    customer still walked out.

    If you don't understand it or you refuse to understand it then there is
    no point in visiting Ed's Country Hardware store either. I didn't even
    have to go there to know he won't have it, and if I ask he will treat me
    like dirt for asking. I'll just skip that place and head for town to
    get ALL of what I need.

    Maybe he treats you like dirt (if that's even true) because you have a
    lousy attitude. Attitude begets attitude; both positive and negative.


    Just because the bank and I share ownership of an 800 million dollar
    combine it doesn't mean I have cash on hand to buy every spare part I
    should in your opinion, and dead simple items like a bolt should be
    available at any hardware store where the owner doesn't have his head up his....

    "Dead simple items like a bolt" is not the same as "the exact bolt that you needed". I'll bet he stocks hundreds of different sizes and types of bolt. He just doesn't stock the one that no one (except you) buys. How hard is that
    for you to understand?

    Do you stock every single flavor of ice cream on the off chance that a guest might want some Tillamook Marionberry Pie? What, you don't? What a terrible host you are.

    And don't come back and tell us that the bolt you wanted is "common". It's not common for his clientele. He told you that. He's not in business to make only *you* happy. But guess what: He is in business. If he was doing such a terrible job and was such a lousy businessman, he'd have been out of business a long time ago. The mere fact that he runs a thriving business is proof that he is making
    the right decisions regarding what he stocks.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Puckdropper on Sun Feb 20 06:42:26 2022
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 4:07:35 AM UTC-5, Puckdropper wrote:
    DerbyDad03 <teama...@eznet.net> wrote in news:075665ed-29e1-4135...@googlegroups.com:
    Actually I solved that problem with another HF product: Their 5mm
    nitrile gloves. I wear them under gloves when I'm doing wet yardwork, blowing snow, etc. Keeps the wet away from the skin, keeps the hands
    clean, and keeps the wind off if I need to do something "delicate" and
    have to take outer gloves off.

    When I take off the nitrile pair, I leave them inside out so the perspiration dries. When I need to put them on again, I turn them
    inside in, blow into them to pop the fingers out and they're good to
    go.
    Don't your hands sweat? I never can use the same pair of Nitrile gloves twice...even though I've tried.

    Yes, my hands sweat. Read the paragraph just above your response.

    I agree that there is no way to directly put the nitriles back on when they
    are wet, but if you take them off by the cuff so that they end up inside out, the perspiration will evaporate and you (I) can use them again and again.

    As I mentioned, once they dry and you turn them "inside in" just blow
    into the cuff to pop the fingers back out. I've often used the same pair
    a half dozen times before they wear out.

    Sometimes I have "overlapping pairs" i.e. one pair is drying while I'm
    wearing another pair. Situations where I need to take the gloves off
    multiple times during a project.

    I was lucky (pure luck) that I stocked up during a sale just before the pandemic hit when the priced jumped from like $6 to $18. I got a few
    boxes on sale for less than the $6. I recently ran out and I think I paid
    $14 per for a couple of boxes, but my daughter's boyfriend had given
    me a HF gift card for Christmas, so *he* paid $14 per box, not me.
    [Don't try to convince me otherwise. ;-) ]



    I just bought a new snow blower. At 245 lbs, it's about 40 lbs heavier
    than my old one. I may need to shed a layer. ;-)

    Ooh, congrats on the new toy--uh tool. I've got an old one that my
    Grandpa bought used and it's done a great job these last two winter
    storms. I just didn't know enough about the Tecumseh HS50 engine to get
    it going again, so I replaced it with a very nice Predator from Harbor Freight.


    Nice job giving the old machine a new life.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Sun Feb 20 10:11:27 2022
    On 2/19/2022 10:33 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 21:00:02 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 6:10 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 15:13:34 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer >>>>>>>> service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will not >>>>>>>> take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of two >>>>>>>> stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man. >>>>>>> The writing was on the wall.  Inventory selection has been at a >>>>>>> constant decline ever since.  Clearly the son was applying turn rate >>>>>>> and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore the >>>>>>> fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the turn >>>>>>> rate items elsewhere too.  I get less and less at Harbor Freight >>>>>>> simply because they don't have the huge array of single use specialty >>>>>>> tools they used to have.  At least now they have a website that >>>>>>> usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally or not.  Not >>>>>>> always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening.  I went in to >>>>>>> buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line.  Along with that >>>>>>> trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories  It had >>>>>>> one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the shelf, so I >>>>>>> grabbed a tag and all the accessories.  I made a point of handing the >>>>>>> tag to the cashier first.  I didn't set any of my other stuff on the >>>>>>> counter.  She took the tag and set it aside.  Then she proceeded to >>>>>>> take stuff out of my cart to ring it up.  I stopped her and said, >>>>>>> "Lets get somebody on that pump first."

    She replied that she didn't need to check.  She knew they didn't have >>>>>>> any in stock.  I let here know I'd checked the website before coming. >>>>>>> She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have any, but >>>>>>> I'll check."  Then she finally punched it in, and said, "Yeah only >>>>>>> the display model."  She immediately started ringing up the
    accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the pump >>>>>>> it goes with?"  She just looked at me like I was an idiot.  I walked >>>>>>> around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple days >>>>>>> instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not.  Maybe its working >>>>>>> for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI:  There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon.  (20% for >>>>>>> In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most all >>>>>> manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards.


    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in the >>>>> back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the Harbor
    Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as thumbing through >>>>> an Alden's Christmas toy catalog.  The Harbor Freight Catalog was almost >>>>> as thick, and it was printed on almost bible thin paper.  Now they
    couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item.  The used to sell 15-20 different metal lathes. >>>>> Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2 metal lathes >>>>> they sell are the same machine with different length beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell.  It didn't happen >>>>> from covid either.  It clearly and definitely started when Old Man
    Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic
    general business principles.  In college even the business instructor >>>>> who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down from the mountain >>>>> grudgingly admitted there were exceptions.  Maybe Harbor Freight needed >>>>> to clean up a little bit, but removing more than 90% of their selection >>>>> wasn't the right answer either.



    You stock what sells. Floor space is valuable.

    If you don't stock enough variety to get people in the door, the cost
    of floor space is irrelevant.

    So if you buy everything, you go broke and close the doors.

    Evidently there is a happy medium. I don't know if HF is there,
    mainly because there isn't much there I want.

    Evidently and eventually. Precisely.
    I have not seen Harbor Freight financials so I could not say with
    certainty if they are in trouble or not. But any business remaining in business during the past 2 years is doing something right. Is HF public
    or private?


    Certainly variety is a draw but you have to be able to control your
    money. I am not sure if I have ever heard of a company that started out
    offering everything. No one really knows what is going to sell with a
    start up business. So you start with inventory that will sustain the
    business. Add variety as business warrants.

    HF isn't a new business. It seems they're always in trouble.

    I could not say.

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  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Sun Feb 20 10:42:04 2022
    On 2/19/2022 10:29 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:54:28 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 6:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 6:38 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer >>>>>>>>> service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will >>>>>>>>> not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of >>>>>>>>> two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent. >>>>>>>>

    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man. >>>>>>>> The writing was on the wall.  Inventory selection has been at a >>>>>>>> constant decline ever since.  Clearly the son was applying turn >>>>>>>> rate and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore >>>>>>>> the fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the >>>>>>>> turn rate items elsewhere too.  I get less and less at Harbor >>>>>>>> Freight simply because they don't have the huge array of single >>>>>>>> use specialty tools they used to have.  At least now they have a >>>>>>>> website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally >>>>>>>> or not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening.  I went in >>>>>>>> to buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line.  Along with >>>>>>>> that trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories >>>>>>>> It had one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the >>>>>>>> shelf, so I grabbed a tag and all the accessories.  I made a point >>>>>>>> of handing the tag to the cashier first.  I didn't set any of my >>>>>>>> other stuff on the counter.  She took the tag and set it aside. >>>>>>>> Then she proceeded to take stuff out of my cart to ring it up.  I >>>>>>>> stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on that pump first."

    She replied that she didn't need to check.  She knew they didn't >>>>>>>> have any in stock.  I let here know I'd checked the website before >>>>>>>> coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have >>>>>>>> any, but I'll check."  Then she finally punched it in, and said, >>>>>>>> "Yeah only the display model."  She immediately started ringing up >>>>>>>> the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the >>>>>>>> pump it goes with?"  She just looked at me like I was an idiot.  I >>>>>>>> walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple >>>>>>>> days instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not.  Maybe its
    working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI:  There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon.  (20% >>>>>>>> for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most >>>>>>> all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards.


    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in >>>>>> the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the
    Harbor Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as
    thumbing through an Alden's Christmas toy catalog.  The Harbor
    Freight Catalog was almost as thick, and it was printed on almost
    bible thin paper. Now they couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item.  The used to sell 15-20 different metal
    lathes. Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2 >>>>>> metal lathes they sell are the same machine with different length beds. >>>>>>
    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell.  It didn't
    happen from covid either.  It clearly and definitely started when >>>>>> Old Man Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic >>>>>> general business principles.  In college even the business
    instructor who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down
    from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions.  Maybe >>>>>> Harbor Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more
    than 90% of their selection wasn't the right answer either.



    You stock what sells.  Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field
    bolt because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and
    you tell me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who buys >>>> them and its not worth it for us.  I'll say "ok," load my wife and
    kids back in the pickup truck and head into town.  While I'm in town
    I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of stopping
    next door at your grocery store for them.  Since I'm already in town I >>>> buy the new stove the old lady wanted, and purchase that new rifle I
    had been eyeballing in your gun rack. So because you were to stubborn
    to stock what I needed I bought a bunch of high turn rate items and a
    couple high margin items from somebody else.  Instead of having some
    stocking costs you lost a huge number of sales.

    Oh pleeeeease, that is not how the retail world works, those that remain
    in business. It is a daily occurrence that customers walk out of stores
    all over the world and empty handed every day. One does not remain in
    business by continuing to buy an item that no longer warrants space on
    the shelf or by stocking "everything" and not ever selling some of it.

    And referring back to all those lathes, 60 was it? I seriously doubt
    that those lathes were in his stock. Certainly he had access to a
    source that he could become a middle man with that variety. And of
    those 60 lathes they certainly would be shipped direct to the customer
    and not from a single source/manufacturer.

    Several woodworking stores sell and stock SawStop. You can buy a table
    saw right when you walk inside and pay and load it in your truck. BUT
    with a very popular model and is the original model, you cannot do this.
    You pay and the saw is shipped direct from one of Woodcraft's sources.
    This is why their catalog has more in it than you can go to the store
    and walk out with. That is ONE example of many.

    I was the local Woodcraft today. They had three models of SSs in
    stock. They didn't have any of the Laguna saws in stock but sold one
    anyway. ;-) They also had all three models (16/32. 19/36, and 25/50)
    of the Supermax drum sanders and a couple of Jets. I didn't know that
    drum sanders were so popular.

    They were short of the mid/high end lathes because the lead time is so
    long, at least three months, and they're selling like hotcakes. They
    had four mobility kits for the Revo 18/36 ($700 for wheels) on the
    floor waiting for something to put them on.

    Of course they can't carry everything but they keep a lot more
    expensive inventory in the store than one would expect. OTOH, their
    Festool inventory is really shabby, particularly accessories.

    Some stores do stock a lot of inventory. But possibly, and this has
    happened to me in the past, items on back order show up all at once.
    You tend to be over stocked as a result. With supply chain difficulties
    you order as much as you can and hope for the best. This is not totally
    unlike a back order from the source.

    I recall way back when GM was having issues with catalytic converters.
    We were replacing 4~5 per day and we could not get enough. This seemed
    to go on for years. I finally got my back ordered converters in a
    single shipment of over 200 units. I typically ordered 10~15 every two
    weeks. To put that into perspective that increased the value of my
    inventory by 20%. This was 40 years ago and GM parts was in Houston
    also. I did not stock the obscure stuff, I let the other dealers bloat
    their inventories with these odd parts. I stocked items that moved and
    bought the odd stuff as needed and daily. GMPD was not in particular
    happy with me. They wanted me to keep a 120 day supply of parts. I saw
    no need for more than 60. So my inventory was probably half of what
    they thought I should have.

    The 120 day supply was to buffer their inability to supply parts. I had
    plenty of other sources than GMPD to get GM parts.


    So what may appear to be a well stocked show room floor could be back
    orders or product finally being delivered all at once.





    Floor space is valuable, but telling customers what they need is not
    important is stupid whether its said directly or indirectly.

    What is stupid in this short story you are writing. Every single store
    in the world does not tell their customers what they need or want is
    stupid. But every single store has and has always not had something
    that a customer wanted and that is because it does not fit in the
    business plan. I have only heard a store employee say, sorry/or we do
    not stock that. That tells you the situation. You are not getting it
    there. And probably not the quart of milk that your wife told you to go
    get. He does not go on to say, what they/you need is not important,
    like you said, that would be stupid. Why would anyone think would
    happen? That would be directly. Iindirectly he is probably thinking
    that he needs to get the milk at the next store.

    When you have competition and yes every like business is competition,
    whether you are the best or the worst. You have to first have a sound
    business model and stick to it. Pleasing the customer is an important
    step but absolutely not the only important step necessary to have a
    sustainable business.

    YOU can please some of the people some of the time,... you know the rest.




    Here is one of those truisms that came down from the mountain for you. >>>> Its a heck of a lot easier to sell to the customer who walks into your >>>> store than the one walking down the street, and its an order of
    magnitude easier than trying to sell to the one who had to leave to
    get what they really needed somewhere else.

    DOH! But one of those other customers that came from one of those other
    stores wanks in to your business and buys what you have.

    You CANNOT be everything to every customer.





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  • From Bob La Londe@21:1/5 to Ed Pawlowski on Sun Feb 20 10:45:34 2022
    On 2/19/2022 8:48 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 8:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 5:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

    If you don't understand it or you refuse to understand it then there
    is no point in visiting Ed's Country Hardware store either.  I didn't
    even have to go there to know he won't have it, and if I ask he will
    treat me like dirt for asking.  I'll just skip that place and head for
    town to get ALL of what I need.

    Just because the bank and I share ownership of an 800 million dollar
    combine it doesn't mean I have cash on hand to buy every spare part I
    should in your opinion, and dead simple items like a bolt should be
    available at any hardware store where the owner doesn't have his head
    up his....


    It is a consumable.  If you don't have a shear pin, a commonly used item
    for your machine you are not operating very smart and the bank would be
    smart to foreclose.   Don't blame your incompetence on my lack of $2
    shear pins.

    Ok, No problem. You have no respect and in fact express sentiments approaching hatred for anybody who makes a mistake and you wish upon
    them foreclosure bankruptcy and the destitution and starvation of their
    family, their employees and their employee's families. (This is the
    logical extension of what YOU said.) I sincerely appreciate you making yourself so clear. Nobody blames you for not having a part. I'm
    telling you the consequences. Its a choice you make.

    In the case of Harbor Freight they have less and less selection. Is it
    working for them? Maybe. I don't know. I know that in the past I
    would always check Harbor Freight for a single use tool or tools to be
    used in high loss environments. Now I usually don't. Their huge
    reduction in selection doesn't just mean I don't buy the tool they don't
    have, but I often don't even check for the tool they do have. Its not
    just because they didn't have just one part as illustrated in my
    example. Its because they didn't have one part or one tool many times.
    Is my business unimportant to them. Probably. It doesn't mean that
    the loss of sales they could have made from many different people who
    also quit checking does not have an impact.

    You do you Ed. I will do me, and that farmer you so despise and revile
    will take care of his business and his family whether that includes
    either of us or not. In your case probably not.

    I once asked my dad why he had a huge selection of grade 2 grade 5 and
    grade 8 bolts in bulk bins in his country hardware store that was next
    door to my mom's country grocery and general store. My example was his example. I understood it to mean if you don't have the things people
    expect you to have for the type of business you have they will give up
    on you. They will get what they need elsewhere, and while they are
    there they will buy everything else too. I didn't get bogged down in
    petty details like you did. It was an example. Like a parable it was
    to illustrate a point. So is that farmer who is a member of my
    community, donates to the local youth organizations, and supports your
    business deserving of your contempt because he didn't have a part you
    think he should have instead of bother you in your hardware store.
    Probably not.

    We had farmers come in for field bolts to be used as shear pins. They
    were back up and running in a short time. Were they stupid. We didn't
    think so. They made money, supported our businesses, paid taxes that
    supported our school, and donated to local youth organizations. We
    believed in supporting those who supported us even if it was just
    stocking some lower turn rate items. Some of those farmers were my
    first customers in my own business ventures.

    I see you are well invested in being right. Okay you can be right. I
    won't buy stock from you that you won't have. I'll order it from out of
    town, and stock my own. Since I'm sitting at my computer ordering stuff
    I'll get everything else as well. I may even have my groceries
    delivered from Amazon while I'm at it. That's okay. You are right.



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  • From Bob La Londe@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 20 10:52:07 2022
    On 2/20/2022 8:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 8:34:57 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 5:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 6:38 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer >>>>>>>>> service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will >>>>>>>>> not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of >>>>>>>>> two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent. >>>>>>>>

    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man. >>>>>>>> The writing was on the wall. Inventory selection has been at a >>>>>>>> constant decline ever since. Clearly the son was applying turn >>>>>>>> rate and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore >>>>>>>> the fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the >>>>>>>> turn rate items elsewhere too. I get less and less at Harbor
    Freight simply because they don't have the huge array of single >>>>>>>> use specialty tools they used to have. At least now they have a >>>>>>>> website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally >>>>>>>> or not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening. I went in >>>>>>>> to buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line. Along with >>>>>>>> that trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories >>>>>>>> It had one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the >>>>>>>> shelf, so I grabbed a tag and all the accessories. I made a point >>>>>>>> of handing the tag to the cashier first. I didn't set any of my >>>>>>>> other stuff on the counter. She took the tag and set it aside. >>>>>>>> Then she proceeded to take stuff out of my cart to ring it up. I >>>>>>>> stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on that pump first."

    She replied that she didn't need to check. She knew they didn't >>>>>>>> have any in stock. I let here know I'd checked the website before >>>>>>>> coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have >>>>>>>> any, but I'll check." Then she finally punched it in, and said, >>>>>>>> "Yeah only the display model." She immediately started ringing up >>>>>>>> the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the >>>>>>>> pump it goes with?" She just looked at me like I was an idiot. I >>>>>>>> walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple >>>>>>>> days instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not. Maybe its
    working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI: There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon. (20% >>>>>>>> for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most >>>>>>> all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards.


    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in >>>>>> the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the
    Harbor Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as
    thumbing through an Alden's Christmas toy catalog. The Harbor
    Freight Catalog was almost as thick, and it was printed on almost
    bible thin paper. Now they couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item. The used to sell 15-20 different metal
    lathes. Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2 >>>>>> metal lathes they sell are the same machine with different length beds. >>>>>>
    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell. It didn't
    happen from covid either. It clearly and definitely started when
    Old Man Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic >>>>>> general business principles. In college even the business
    instructor who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down
    from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions. Maybe >>>>>> Harbor Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more
    than 90% of their selection wasn't the right answer either.



    You stock what sells. Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field
    bolt because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and
    you tell me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who buys >>>> them and its not worth it for us. I'll say "ok," load my wife and
    kids back in the pickup truck and head into town. While I'm in town
    I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of stopping
    next door at your grocery store for them. Since I'm already in town I >>>> buy the new stove the old lady wanted, and purchase that new rifle I
    had been eyeballing in your gun rack. So because you were to stubborn
    to stock what I needed I bought a bunch of high turn rate items and a
    couple high margin items from somebody else. Instead of having some
    stocking costs you lost a huge number of sales.

    When I get back to the farm and my mechanic asks why it took so long
    to get the simple part she needed for the combine we get to talking.
    I tell her I had to run into town for it and how much cheaper
    groceries were in town instead of Leon's Grocery store, and how I
    bought this cool new rifle over at Joe's Gun Shop instead of Leon's
    hardware store. I might even mention how much the old lady is pleased >>>> about the new stove she got to pick out at Home Depot.

    The farm mechanic heard two things in that. Leon doesn't have what we >>>> need, and things are cheaper in town. She tells her husband to go to
    town for groceries, and while you are there pop over to O'Reilly Auto
    for a new starter for the truck she is fixing up.

    Floor space is valuable, but telling customers what they need is not
    important is stupid whether its said directly or indirectly.

    Here is one of those truisms that came down from the mountain for you. >>>> Its a heck of a lot easier to sell to the customer who walks into your >>>> store than the one walking down the street, and its an order of
    magnitude easier than trying to sell to the one who had to leave to
    get what they really needed somewhere else.

    You should have had that part in your own stock. Shear pins are made to >>> shear and if you did not have a spare it is your incompetence and lack
    of planning. When one breaks, order from Grainger or McMaster.
    And its always good business to sneer down your nose while insulting
    your customer? They sure as hell didn't etch that one in stone and send
    it down the mountain.

    Instead of taking care of the customer whether its your vain arrogance
    and stupidity for refusing to stock a low turn rate item he WILL NEED or
    his for not already having one the fact is that its a lot harder to get
    a customer back than it is to keep them in the first place. The
    customer still walked out.

    If you don't understand it or you refuse to understand it then there is
    no point in visiting Ed's Country Hardware store either. I didn't even
    have to go there to know he won't have it, and if I ask he will treat me
    like dirt for asking. I'll just skip that place and head for town to
    get ALL of what I need.

    Maybe he treats you like dirt (if that's even true) because you have a
    lousy attitude. Attitude begets attitude; both positive and negative.


    Just because the bank and I share ownership of an 800 million dollar
    combine it doesn't mean I have cash on hand to buy every spare part I
    should in your opinion, and dead simple items like a bolt should be
    available at any hardware store where the owner doesn't have his head up
    his....

    "Dead simple items like a bolt" is not the same as "the exact bolt that you needed". I'll bet he stocks hundreds of different sizes and types of bolt. He just doesn't stock the one that no one (except you) buys. How hard is that for you to understand?

    Do you stock every single flavor of ice cream on the off chance that a guest might want some Tillamook Marionberry Pie? What, you don't? What a terrible host you are.

    And don't come back and tell us that the bolt you wanted is "common". It's not
    common for his clientele. He told you that. He's not in business to make only *you* happy. But guess what: He is in business. If he was doing such a terrible
    job and was such a lousy businessman, he'd have been out of business a long time ago. The mere fact that he runs a thriving business is proof that he is making
    the right decisions regarding what he stocks.


    I understand. It doesn't mean while I'm in town getting what I "need" I
    won't buy all the other things I need too. Things you/he stock. Is my attitude crummy? Maybe, but Ed expressed his here. Mine as expressed
    here is only a reaction to his.




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  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Bob La Londe on Sun Feb 20 11:28:44 2022
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 12:45:41 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 8:48 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 8:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 5:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

    If you don't understand it or you refuse to understand it then there
    is no point in visiting Ed's Country Hardware store either. I didn't
    even have to go there to know he won't have it, and if I ask he will
    treat me like dirt for asking. I'll just skip that place and head for
    town to get ALL of what I need.

    Just because the bank and I share ownership of an 800 million dollar
    combine it doesn't mean I have cash on hand to buy every spare part I
    should in your opinion, and dead simple items like a bolt should be
    available at any hardware store where the owner doesn't have his head
    up his....


    It is a consumable. If you don't have a shear pin, a commonly used item for your machine you are not operating very smart and the bank would be smart to foreclose. Don't blame your incompetence on my lack of $2
    shear pins.
    Ok, No problem. You have no respect and in fact express sentiments approaching hatred for anybody who makes a mistake and you wish upon
    them foreclosure bankruptcy and the destitution and starvation of their family, their employees and their employee's families. (This is the
    logical extension of what YOU said.) I sincerely appreciate you making yourself so clear. Nobody blames you for not having a part. I'm
    telling you the consequences. Its a choice you make.

    In the case of Harbor Freight they have less and less selection. Is it working for them? Maybe. I don't know. I know that in the past I
    would always check Harbor Freight for a single use tool or tools to be
    used in high loss environments. Now I usually don't. Their huge
    reduction in selection doesn't just mean I don't buy the tool they don't have, but I often don't even check for the tool they do have. Its not
    just because they didn't have just one part as illustrated in my
    example. Its because they didn't have one part or one tool many times.
    Is my business unimportant to them. Probably. It doesn't mean that
    the loss of sales they could have made from many different people who
    also quit checking does not have an impact.

    You do you Ed. I will do me, and that farmer you so despise and revile
    will take care of his business and his family whether that includes
    either of us or not. In your case probably not.

    I once asked my dad why he had a huge selection of grade 2 grade 5 and
    grade 8 bolts in bulk bins in his country hardware store that was next
    door to my mom's country grocery and general store. My example was his example. I understood it to mean if you don't have the things people
    expect you to have for the type of business you have they will give up
    on you.

    They will get what they need elsewhere, and while they are
    there they will buy everything else too. I didn't get bogged down in
    petty details like you did. It was an example. Like a parable it was
    to illustrate a point. So is that farmer who is a member of my
    community, donates to the local youth organizations, and supports your business deserving of your contempt because he didn't have a part you
    think he should have instead of bother you in your hardware store.
    Probably not.

    We had farmers come in for field bolts to be used as shear pins. They
    were back up and running in a short time. Were they stupid. We didn't
    think so. They made money, supported our businesses, paid taxes that supported our school, and donated to local youth organizations. We
    believed in supporting those who supported us even if it was just
    stocking some lower turn rate items. Some of those farmers were my
    first customers in my own business ventures.


    Seems like there was difference in your Dad's clientele vs. the store you
    are talking about. Obviously he was selling the bolts (you said so) so it
    made sense to stock them. Your guy says you are the only one that
    needed the bolt that he didn't have (you said so).

    Was your dad in the habit of stocking every one-off item that each
    individual farmer might come in for on a very rare occasion? Sounds
    to me like he stocked what was selling. Smart man.

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  • From Bob La Londe@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 20 13:15:07 2022
    On 2/20/2022 12:28 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 12:45:41 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 8:48 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 8:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 5:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

    If you don't understand it or you refuse to understand it then there
    is no point in visiting Ed's Country Hardware store either. I didn't
    even have to go there to know he won't have it, and if I ask he will
    treat me like dirt for asking. I'll just skip that place and head for >>>> town to get ALL of what I need.

    Just because the bank and I share ownership of an 800 million dollar
    combine it doesn't mean I have cash on hand to buy every spare part I
    should in your opinion, and dead simple items like a bolt should be
    available at any hardware store where the owner doesn't have his head
    up his....


    It is a consumable. If you don't have a shear pin, a commonly used item >>> for your machine you are not operating very smart and the bank would be
    smart to foreclose. Don't blame your incompetence on my lack of $2
    shear pins.
    Ok, No problem. You have no respect and in fact express sentiments
    approaching hatred for anybody who makes a mistake and you wish upon
    them foreclosure bankruptcy and the destitution and starvation of their
    family, their employees and their employee's families. (This is the
    logical extension of what YOU said.) I sincerely appreciate you making
    yourself so clear. Nobody blames you for not having a part. I'm
    telling you the consequences. Its a choice you make.

    In the case of Harbor Freight they have less and less selection. Is it
    working for them? Maybe. I don't know. I know that in the past I
    would always check Harbor Freight for a single use tool or tools to be
    used in high loss environments. Now I usually don't. Their huge
    reduction in selection doesn't just mean I don't buy the tool they don't
    have, but I often don't even check for the tool they do have. Its not
    just because they didn't have just one part as illustrated in my
    example. Its because they didn't have one part or one tool many times.
    Is my business unimportant to them. Probably. It doesn't mean that
    the loss of sales they could have made from many different people who
    also quit checking does not have an impact.

    You do you Ed. I will do me, and that farmer you so despise and revile
    will take care of his business and his family whether that includes
    either of us or not. In your case probably not.

    I once asked my dad why he had a huge selection of grade 2 grade 5 and
    grade 8 bolts in bulk bins in his country hardware store that was next
    door to my mom's country grocery and general store. My example was his
    example. I understood it to mean if you don't have the things people
    expect you to have for the type of business you have they will give up
    on you.

    They will get what they need elsewhere, and while they are
    there they will buy everything else too. I didn't get bogged down in
    petty details like you did. It was an example. Like a parable it was
    to illustrate a point. So is that farmer who is a member of my
    community, donates to the local youth organizations, and supports your
    business deserving of your contempt because he didn't have a part you
    think he should have instead of bother you in your hardware store.
    Probably not.

    We had farmers come in for field bolts to be used as shear pins. They
    were back up and running in a short time. Were they stupid. We didn't
    think so. They made money, supported our businesses, paid taxes that
    supported our school, and donated to local youth organizations. We
    believed in supporting those who supported us even if it was just
    stocking some lower turn rate items. Some of those farmers were my
    first customers in my own business ventures.


    Seems like there was difference in your Dad's clientele vs. the store you
    are talking about. Obviously he was selling the bolts (you said so) so it made sense to stock them. Your guy says you are the only one that
    needed the bolt that he didn't have (you said so).

    Was your dad in the habit of stocking every one-off item that each
    individual farmer might come in for on a very rare occasion? Sounds
    to me like he stocked what was selling. Smart man.

    Sounds like you are bound and determined to say I am wrong no matter
    what. We didn't make any money having a huge selection of bolts. We
    made money by keeping the customer in the store.


    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
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  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Bob La Londe on Sun Feb 20 12:51:53 2022
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 3:45:55 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 10:52 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 8:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 8:34:57 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote: >>> On 2/19/2022 5:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 6:38 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer >>>>>>>>>> service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will >>>>>>>>>> not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of >>>>>>>>>> two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent. >>>>>>>>>

    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man. >>>>>>>>> The writing was on the wall. Inventory selection has been at a >>>>>>>>> constant decline ever since. Clearly the son was applying turn >>>>>>>>> rate and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore >>>>>>>>> the fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the >>>>>>>>> turn rate items elsewhere too. I get less and less at Harbor >>>>>>>>> Freight simply because they don't have the huge array of single >>>>>>>>> use specialty tools they used to have. At least now they have a >>>>>>>>> website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally >>>>>>>>> or not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening. I went in >>>>>>>>> to buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line. Along with >>>>>>>>> that trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories >>>>>>>>> It had one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the >>>>>>>>> shelf, so I grabbed a tag and all the accessories. I made a point >>>>>>>>> of handing the tag to the cashier first. I didn't set any of my >>>>>>>>> other stuff on the counter. She took the tag and set it aside. >>>>>>>>> Then she proceeded to take stuff out of my cart to ring it up. I >>>>>>>>> stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on that pump first." >>>>>>>>>
    She replied that she didn't need to check. She knew they didn't >>>>>>>>> have any in stock. I let here know I'd checked the website before >>>>>>>>> coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have >>>>>>>>> any, but I'll check." Then she finally punched it in, and said, >>>>>>>>> "Yeah only the display model." She immediately started ringing up >>>>>>>>> the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the >>>>>>>>> pump it goes with?" She just looked at me like I was an idiot. I >>>>>>>>> walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple >>>>>>>>> days instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not. Maybe its >>>>>>>>> working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI: There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon. (20% >>>>>>>>> for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most >>>>>>>> all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards. >>>>>>>

    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in >>>>>>> the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the >>>>>>> Harbor Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as
    thumbing through an Alden's Christmas toy catalog. The Harbor >>>>>>> Freight Catalog was almost as thick, and it was printed on almost >>>>>>> bible thin paper. Now they couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item. The used to sell 15-20 different metal >>>>>>> lathes. Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2 >>>>>>> metal lathes they sell are the same machine with different length >>>>>>> beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell. It didn't >>>>>>> happen from covid either. It clearly and definitely started when >>>>>>> Old Man Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic >>>>>>> general business principles. In college even the business
    instructor who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down >>>>>>> from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions. Maybe >>>>>>> Harbor Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more >>>>>>> than 90% of their selection wasn't the right answer either.



    You stock what sells. Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field >>>>> bolt because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and >>>>> you tell me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who buys >>>>> them and its not worth it for us. I'll say "ok," load my wife and >>>>> kids back in the pickup truck and head into town. While I'm in town >>>>> I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of stopping >>>>> next door at your grocery store for them. Since I'm already in town I >>>>> buy the new stove the old lady wanted, and purchase that new rifle I >>>>> had been eyeballing in your gun rack. So because you were to stubborn >>>>> to stock what I needed I bought a bunch of high turn rate items and a >>>>> couple high margin items from somebody else. Instead of having some >>>>> stocking costs you lost a huge number of sales.

    When I get back to the farm and my mechanic asks why it took so long >>>>> to get the simple part she needed for the combine we get to talking. >>>>> I tell her I had to run into town for it and how much cheaper
    groceries were in town instead of Leon's Grocery store, and how I
    bought this cool new rifle over at Joe's Gun Shop instead of Leon's >>>>> hardware store. I might even mention how much the old lady is pleased >>>>> about the new stove she got to pick out at Home Depot.

    The farm mechanic heard two things in that. Leon doesn't have what we >>>>> need, and things are cheaper in town. She tells her husband to go to >>>>> town for groceries, and while you are there pop over to O'Reilly Auto >>>>> for a new starter for the truck she is fixing up.

    Floor space is valuable, but telling customers what they need is not >>>>> important is stupid whether its said directly or indirectly.

    Here is one of those truisms that came down from the mountain for you. >>>>> Its a heck of a lot easier to sell to the customer who walks into your >>>>> store than the one walking down the street, and its an order of
    magnitude easier than trying to sell to the one who had to leave to >>>>> get what they really needed somewhere else.

    You should have had that part in your own stock. Shear pins are
    made to
    shear and if you did not have a spare it is your incompetence and lack >>>> of planning. When one breaks, order from Grainger or McMaster.
    And its always good business to sneer down your nose while insulting
    your customer? They sure as hell didn't etch that one in stone and send >>> it down the mountain.

    Instead of taking care of the customer whether its your vain arrogance >>> and stupidity for refusing to stock a low turn rate item he WILL NEED or >>> his for not already having one the fact is that its a lot harder to get >>> a customer back than it is to keep them in the first place. The
    customer still walked out.

    If you don't understand it or you refuse to understand it then there is >>> no point in visiting Ed's Country Hardware store either. I didn't even >>> have to go there to know he won't have it, and if I ask he will treat me >>> like dirt for asking. I'll just skip that place and head for town to
    get ALL of what I need.

    Maybe he treats you like dirt (if that's even true) because you have a
    lousy attitude. Attitude begets attitude; both positive and negative.


    Just because the bank and I share ownership of an 800 million dollar
    combine it doesn't mean I have cash on hand to buy every spare part I
    should in your opinion, and dead simple items like a bolt should be
    available at any hardware store where the owner doesn't have his head up >>> his....

    "Dead simple items like a bolt" is not the same as "the exact bolt
    that you
    needed". I'll bet he stocks hundreds of different sizes and types of
    bolt. He
    just doesn't stock the one that no one (except you) buys. How hard is
    that
    for you to understand?

    Do you stock every single flavor of ice cream on the off chance that a
    guest
    might want some Tillamook Marionberry Pie? What, you don't? What a
    terrible
    host you are.

    And don't come back and tell us that the bolt you wanted is "common".
    It's not
    common for his clientele. He told you that. He's not in business to
    make only
    *you* happy. But guess what: He is in business. If he was doing such a
    terrible
    job and was such a lousy businessman, he'd have been out of business a
    long
    time ago. The mere fact that he runs a thriving business is proof that
    he is making
    the right decisions regarding what he stocks.


    I understand. It doesn't mean while I'm in town getting what I "need" I won't buy all the other things I need too. Things you/he stock. Is my attitude crummy? Maybe, but Ed expressed his here. Mine as expressed
    here is only a reaction to his.




    I'm probably spinning my wheels here, but I'll give it one last try
    before giving up on you.
    Here is a parallel. Home Depot comes into a medium size or small city
    for the first time with a very broad selection. They can't compete for personal service with the small local stores, but they can be price (if
    they want to) competitive due to their massive buying power. Because
    people can get everything they need in one store a lot of other stores
    go out of business or are forced to dramatically change. Then prices
    creep up and selection goes down. That seems smart for Home Depot, but customers start buying the things they need online because Home Depot
    doesn't have everything any longer. Then the customers discover they
    can buy everything online and cheaper (all in one place sometimes). Who
    is the biggest retailer in the world? Amazon. Coincidentally they have
    the broadest range of products of any retailer in the world as well. Is
    Home depot going out of business. Not any time soon, because we still
    go there if they do have what we need and we have to have it today.
    They still have a broader range of product than any other local retailer
    in their range of products. We can still pay cash at Home Depot. They
    just don't have the range in each department that they did when they
    opened the store. Personally I think of Home Depot now as not much
    different from Harbor Freight. Unless I need it now and I know they
    have it in stock today I just don't go there, and if I don't need it
    today I can almost always have it delivered for the same or less. As a
    result they don't sell me the stuff they don't have, and because there
    is a lot they no longer have they don't sell me a lot of the stuff they
    do have either because I just don't check.
    Musings for thought:
    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held
    onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department
    over to an online presence instead of shutting it down. In 1993 when
    they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.


    Umm...I heard you the first time.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Bob La Londe on Sun Feb 20 12:49:38 2022
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 3:15:15 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 12:28 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 12:45:41 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 8:48 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 8:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 5:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

    If you don't understand it or you refuse to understand it then there >>>> is no point in visiting Ed's Country Hardware store either. I didn't >>>> even have to go there to know he won't have it, and if I ask he will >>>> treat me like dirt for asking. I'll just skip that place and head for >>>> town to get ALL of what I need.

    Just because the bank and I share ownership of an 800 million dollar >>>> combine it doesn't mean I have cash on hand to buy every spare part I >>>> should in your opinion, and dead simple items like a bolt should be
    available at any hardware store where the owner doesn't have his head >>>> up his....


    It is a consumable. If you don't have a shear pin, a commonly used item >>> for your machine you are not operating very smart and the bank would be >>> smart to foreclose. Don't blame your incompetence on my lack of $2
    shear pins.
    Ok, No problem. You have no respect and in fact express sentiments
    approaching hatred for anybody who makes a mistake and you wish upon
    them foreclosure bankruptcy and the destitution and starvation of their
    family, their employees and their employee's families. (This is the
    logical extension of what YOU said.) I sincerely appreciate you making
    yourself so clear. Nobody blames you for not having a part. I'm
    telling you the consequences. Its a choice you make.

    In the case of Harbor Freight they have less and less selection. Is it
    working for them? Maybe. I don't know. I know that in the past I
    would always check Harbor Freight for a single use tool or tools to be
    used in high loss environments. Now I usually don't. Their huge
    reduction in selection doesn't just mean I don't buy the tool they don't >> have, but I often don't even check for the tool they do have. Its not
    just because they didn't have just one part as illustrated in my
    example. Its because they didn't have one part or one tool many times.
    Is my business unimportant to them. Probably. It doesn't mean that
    the loss of sales they could have made from many different people who
    also quit checking does not have an impact.

    You do you Ed. I will do me, and that farmer you so despise and revile
    will take care of his business and his family whether that includes
    either of us or not. In your case probably not.

    I once asked my dad why he had a huge selection of grade 2 grade 5 and
    grade 8 bolts in bulk bins in his country hardware store that was next
    door to my mom's country grocery and general store. My example was his
    example. I understood it to mean if you don't have the things people
    expect you to have for the type of business you have they will give up
    on you.

    They will get what they need elsewhere, and while they are
    there they will buy everything else too. I didn't get bogged down in
    petty details like you did. It was an example. Like a parable it was
    to illustrate a point. So is that farmer who is a member of my
    community, donates to the local youth organizations, and supports your
    business deserving of your contempt because he didn't have a part you
    think he should have instead of bother you in your hardware store.
    Probably not.

    We had farmers come in for field bolts to be used as shear pins. They
    were back up and running in a short time. Were they stupid. We didn't
    think so. They made money, supported our businesses, paid taxes that
    supported our school, and donated to local youth organizations. We
    believed in supporting those who supported us even if it was just
    stocking some lower turn rate items. Some of those farmers were my
    first customers in my own business ventures.


    Seems like there was difference in your Dad's clientele vs. the store you are talking about. Obviously he was selling the bolts (you said so) so it made sense to stock them. Your guy says you are the only one that
    needed the bolt that he didn't have (you said so).

    Was your dad in the habit of stocking every one-off item that each individual farmer might come in for on a very rare occasion? Sounds
    to me like he stocked what was selling. Smart man.
    Sounds like you are bound and determined to say I am wrong no matter
    what. We didn't make any money having a huge selection of bolts. We
    made money by keeping the customer in the store.

    Then your story about the bolts didn't mean anything. If they weren't buying the bolts, they were coming for the other stuff he stocked. Are you saying that if your Dad didn't have a huge selection of bolts, the customers would have gone away?

    I'm just trying to keep this straight.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Bob La Londe@21:1/5 to Bob La Londe on Sun Feb 20 13:33:18 2022
    On 2/20/2022 1:15 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 12:28 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 12:45:41 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 8:48 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 8:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 5:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

    If you don't understand it or you refuse to understand it then there >>>>> is no point in visiting Ed's Country Hardware store either.  I didn't >>>>> even have to go there to know he won't have it, and if I ask he will >>>>> treat me like dirt for asking.  I'll just skip that place and head for >>>>> town to get ALL of what I need.

    Just because the bank and I share ownership of an 800 million dollar >>>>> combine it doesn't mean I have cash on hand to buy every spare part I >>>>> should in your opinion, and dead simple items like a bolt should be
    available at any hardware store where the owner doesn't have his head >>>>> up his....


    It is a consumable.  If you don't have a shear pin, a commonly used
    item
    for your machine you are not operating very smart and the bank would be >>>> smart to foreclose.   Don't blame your incompetence on my lack of $2 >>>> shear pins.
    Ok, No problem. You have no respect and in fact express sentiments
    approaching hatred for anybody who makes a mistake and you wish upon
    them foreclosure bankruptcy and the destitution and starvation of their
    family, their employees and their employee's families. (This is the
    logical extension of what YOU said.) I sincerely appreciate you making
    yourself so clear. Nobody blames you for not having a part. I'm
    telling you the consequences. Its a choice you make.

    In the case of Harbor Freight they have less and less selection. Is it
    working for them? Maybe. I don't know. I know that in the past I
    would always check Harbor Freight for a single use tool or tools to be
    used in high loss environments. Now I usually don't. Their huge
    reduction in selection doesn't just mean I don't buy the tool they don't >>> have, but I often don't even check for the tool they do have. Its not
    just because they didn't have just one part as illustrated in my
    example. Its because they didn't have one part or one tool many times.
    Is my business unimportant to them. Probably. It doesn't mean that
    the loss of sales they could have made from many different people who
    also quit checking does not have an impact.

    You do you Ed. I will do me, and that farmer you so despise and revile
    will take care of his business and his family whether that includes
    either of us or not. In your case probably not.

    I once asked my dad why he had a huge selection of grade 2 grade 5 and
    grade 8 bolts in bulk bins in his country hardware store that was next
    door to my mom's country grocery and general store. My example was his
    example. I understood it to mean if you don't have the things people
    expect you to have for the type of business you have they will give up
    on you.

    They will get what they need elsewhere, and while they are
    there they will buy everything else too. I didn't get bogged down in
    petty details like you did. It was an example. Like a parable it was
    to illustrate a point. So is that farmer who is a member of my
    community, donates to the local youth organizations, and supports your
    business deserving of your contempt because he didn't have a part you
    think he should have instead of bother you in your hardware store.
    Probably not.

    We had farmers come in for field bolts to be used as shear pins. They
    were back up and running in a short time. Were they stupid. We didn't
    think so. They made money, supported our businesses, paid taxes that
    supported our school, and donated to local youth organizations. We
    believed in supporting those who supported us even if it was just
    stocking some lower turn rate items. Some of those farmers were my
    first customers in my own business ventures.


    Seems like there was difference in your Dad's clientele vs. the store you
    are talking about. Obviously he was selling the bolts (you said so) so it
    made sense to stock them. Your guy says you are the only one that
    needed the bolt that he didn't have (you said so).

    Was your dad in the habit of stocking every one-off item that each
    individual farmer might come in for on a very rare occasion? Sounds
    to me like he stocked what was selling. Smart man.

    Sounds like you are bound and determined to say I am wrong no matter
    what.  We didn't make any money having a huge selection of bolts.  We
    made money by keeping the customer in the store.

    Here is a parallel. Home Depot comes into a medium size or small city
    for the first time with a very broad selection. They can't compete for personal service with the small local stores, but they can be price (if
    they want to) competetive due to their massive buying power. Because
    people can get everything they need in one store a lot of other stores
    go out of business or are forced to dramatically change. Then prices
    creep up and selection goes down. That seems smart for Home Depot, but
    customers start buying the things they need online because Home Depot doesn't have everything any longer. Then the customers discover they
    can buy everything online and cheaper. Who is the biggest retailer in
    the world? Amazon. Coincidentally they have the broadest range of
    products of any retailer in the world as well. Is Home depot going out
    of business. Not any time soon, because we still go there if they do
    have what we need and we have to have it today. They still have a
    broader range of product than any other local retailer in their range of products. We can still pay cash at Home Depot. They just don't have
    the range in each department that they did when they opened the store. Personally I think of Home Depot now as not much different from Harbor
    Freight. Unless I need it now and I know they have it in stock today I
    just don't go there, and if I don't need it today I can almost always
    have it delivered for the same or less. As a result they don't sell me
    the stuff they don't have, and because there is a lot they no longer
    have they don't sell me a lot of the stuff they do have either because I
    just don't check.

    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held
    onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department
    over to an online presence instead of shutting it down. In 1993 when
    they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.

    --
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

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  • From Bob La Londe@21:1/5 to Bob La Londe on Sun Feb 20 13:45:50 2022
    On 2/20/2022 10:52 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 8:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 8:34:57 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 5:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 6:38 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer >>>>>>>>>> service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will >>>>>>>>>> not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of >>>>>>>>>> two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent. >>>>>>>>>

    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man. >>>>>>>>> The writing was on the wall.  Inventory selection has been at a >>>>>>>>> constant decline ever since.  Clearly the son was applying turn >>>>>>>>> rate and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore >>>>>>>>> the fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the >>>>>>>>> turn rate items elsewhere too.  I get less and less at Harbor >>>>>>>>> Freight simply because they don't have the huge array of single >>>>>>>>> use specialty tools they used to have.  At least now they have a >>>>>>>>> website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally >>>>>>>>> or not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening.  I went in >>>>>>>>> to buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line.  Along with >>>>>>>>> that trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories >>>>>>>>> It had one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the >>>>>>>>> shelf, so I grabbed a tag and all the accessories.  I made a point >>>>>>>>> of handing the tag to the cashier first.  I didn't set any of my >>>>>>>>> other stuff on the counter.  She took the tag and set it aside. >>>>>>>>> Then she proceeded to take stuff out of my cart to ring it up.  I >>>>>>>>> stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on that pump first." >>>>>>>>>
    She replied that she didn't need to check.  She knew they didn't >>>>>>>>> have any in stock.  I let here know I'd checked the website before >>>>>>>>> coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have >>>>>>>>> any, but I'll check."  Then she finally punched it in, and said, >>>>>>>>> "Yeah only the display model."  She immediately started ringing up >>>>>>>>> the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the >>>>>>>>> pump it goes with?"  She just looked at me like I was an idiot.  I >>>>>>>>> walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple >>>>>>>>> days instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not.  Maybe its >>>>>>>>> working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI:  There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon.  (20% >>>>>>>>> for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most >>>>>>>> all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards. >>>>>>>

    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in >>>>>>> the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the
    Harbor Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as
    thumbing through an Alden's Christmas toy catalog.  The Harbor
    Freight Catalog was almost as thick, and it was printed on almost >>>>>>> bible thin paper. Now they couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item.  The used to sell 15-20 different metal
    lathes. Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2 >>>>>>> metal lathes they sell are the same machine with different length >>>>>>> beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell.  It didn't >>>>>>> happen from covid either.  It clearly and definitely started when >>>>>>> Old Man Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic >>>>>>> general business principles.  In college even the business
    instructor who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down >>>>>>> from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions.  Maybe >>>>>>> Harbor Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more >>>>>>> than 90% of their selection wasn't the right answer either.



    You stock what sells.  Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field
    bolt because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and
    you tell me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who buys >>>>> them and its not worth it for us.  I'll say "ok," load my wife and
    kids back in the pickup truck and head into town.  While I'm in town >>>>> I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of stopping >>>>> next door at your grocery store for them.  Since I'm already in town I >>>>> buy the new stove the old lady wanted, and purchase that new rifle I >>>>> had been eyeballing in your gun rack. So because you were to stubborn >>>>> to stock what I needed I bought a bunch of high turn rate items and a >>>>> couple high margin items from somebody else.  Instead of having some >>>>> stocking costs you lost a huge number of sales.

    When I get back to the farm and my mechanic asks why it took so long >>>>> to get the simple part she needed for the combine we get to talking. >>>>> I tell her I had to run into town for it and how much cheaper
    groceries were in town instead of Leon's Grocery store, and how I
    bought this cool new rifle over at Joe's Gun Shop instead of Leon's
    hardware store.  I might even mention how much the old lady is pleased >>>>> about the new stove she got to pick out at Home Depot.

    The farm mechanic heard two things in that.  Leon doesn't have what we >>>>> need, and things are cheaper in town.  She tells her husband to go to >>>>> town for groceries, and while you are there pop over to O'Reilly Auto >>>>> for a new starter for the truck she is fixing up.

    Floor space is valuable, but telling customers what they need is not >>>>> important is stupid whether its said directly or indirectly.

    Here is one of those truisms that came down from the mountain for you. >>>>> Its a heck of a lot easier to sell to the customer who walks into your >>>>> store than the one walking down the street, and its an order of
    magnitude easier than trying to sell to the one who had to leave to
    get what they really needed somewhere else.

    You should have had that part in your own stock.  Shear pins are
    made to
    shear and if you did not have a spare it is your incompetence and lack >>>> of planning.  When one breaks, order from Grainger or McMaster.
    And its always good business to sneer down your nose while insulting
    your customer? They sure as hell didn't etch that one in stone and send
    it down the mountain.

    Instead of taking care of the customer whether its your vain arrogance
    and stupidity for refusing to stock a low turn rate item he WILL NEED or >>> his for not already having one the fact is that its a lot harder to get
    a customer back than it is to keep them in the first place. The
    customer still walked out.

    If you don't understand it or you refuse to understand it then there is
    no point in visiting Ed's Country Hardware store either. I didn't even
    have to go there to know he won't have it, and if I ask he will treat me >>> like dirt for asking. I'll just skip that place and head for town to
    get ALL of what I need.

    Maybe he treats you like dirt (if that's even true) because you have a
    lousy attitude. Attitude begets attitude; both positive and negative.


    Just because the bank and I share ownership of an 800 million dollar
    combine it doesn't mean I have cash on hand to buy every spare part I
    should in your opinion, and dead simple items like a bolt should be
    available at any hardware store where the owner doesn't have his head up >>> his....

    "Dead simple items like a bolt" is not the same as "the exact bolt
    that you
    needed". I'll bet he stocks hundreds of different sizes and types of
    bolt. He
    just doesn't stock the one that no one (except you) buys. How hard is
    that
    for you to understand?

    Do you stock every single flavor of ice cream on the off chance that a
    guest
    might want some Tillamook Marionberry Pie? What, you don't? What a
    terrible
    host you are.

    And don't come back and tell us that the bolt you wanted is "common".
    It's not
    common for his clientele. He told you that. He's not in business to
    make only
    *you* happy. But guess what: He is in business. If he was doing such a
    terrible
    job and was such a lousy businessman, he'd have been out of business a
    long
    time ago. The mere fact that he runs a thriving business is proof that
    he is making
    the right decisions regarding what he stocks.


    I understand.  It doesn't mean while I'm in town getting what I "need" I won't buy all the other things I need too.  Things you/he stock.  Is my attitude crummy?  Maybe, but Ed expressed his here.  Mine as expressed
    here is only a reaction to his.






    I'm probably spinning my wheels here, but I'll give it one last try
    before giving up on you.

    Here is a parallel. Home Depot comes into a medium size or small city
    for the first time with a very broad selection. They can't compete for personal service with the small local stores, but they can be price (if
    they want to) competitive due to their massive buying power. Because
    people can get everything they need in one store a lot of other stores
    go out of business or are forced to dramatically change. Then prices
    creep up and selection goes down. That seems smart for Home Depot, but
    customers start buying the things they need online because Home Depot doesn't have everything any longer. Then the customers discover they
    can buy everything online and cheaper (all in one place sometimes). Who
    is the biggest retailer in the world? Amazon. Coincidentally they have
    the broadest range of products of any retailer in the world as well. Is
    Home depot going out of business. Not any time soon, because we still
    go there if they do have what we need and we have to have it today.
    They still have a broader range of product than any other local retailer
    in their range of products. We can still pay cash at Home Depot. They
    just don't have the range in each department that they did when they
    opened the store. Personally I think of Home Depot now as not much
    different from Harbor Freight. Unless I need it now and I know they
    have it in stock today I just don't go there, and if I don't need it
    today I can almost always have it delivered for the same or less. As a
    result they don't sell me the stuff they don't have, and because there
    is a lot they no longer have they don't sell me a lot of the stuff they
    do have either because I just don't check.

    Musings for thought:

    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held
    onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department
    over to an online presence instead of shutting it down. In 1993 when
    they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.

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  • From Bob La Londe@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 20 14:10:35 2022
    On 2/20/2022 1:49 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 3:15:15 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 12:28 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 12:45:41 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 8:48 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 8:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 5:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

    If you don't understand it or you refuse to understand it then there >>>>>> is no point in visiting Ed's Country Hardware store either. I didn't >>>>>> even have to go there to know he won't have it, and if I ask he will >>>>>> treat me like dirt for asking. I'll just skip that place and head for >>>>>> town to get ALL of what I need.

    Just because the bank and I share ownership of an 800 million dollar >>>>>> combine it doesn't mean I have cash on hand to buy every spare part I >>>>>> should in your opinion, and dead simple items like a bolt should be >>>>>> available at any hardware store where the owner doesn't have his head >>>>>> up his....


    It is a consumable. If you don't have a shear pin, a commonly used item >>>>> for your machine you are not operating very smart and the bank would be >>>>> smart to foreclose. Don't blame your incompetence on my lack of $2
    shear pins.
    Ok, No problem. You have no respect and in fact express sentiments
    approaching hatred for anybody who makes a mistake and you wish upon
    them foreclosure bankruptcy and the destitution and starvation of their >>>> family, their employees and their employee's families. (This is the
    logical extension of what YOU said.) I sincerely appreciate you making >>>> yourself so clear. Nobody blames you for not having a part. I'm
    telling you the consequences. Its a choice you make.

    In the case of Harbor Freight they have less and less selection. Is it >>>> working for them? Maybe. I don't know. I know that in the past I
    would always check Harbor Freight for a single use tool or tools to be >>>> used in high loss environments. Now I usually don't. Their huge
    reduction in selection doesn't just mean I don't buy the tool they don't >>>> have, but I often don't even check for the tool they do have. Its not
    just because they didn't have just one part as illustrated in my
    example. Its because they didn't have one part or one tool many times. >>>> Is my business unimportant to them. Probably. It doesn't mean that
    the loss of sales they could have made from many different people who
    also quit checking does not have an impact.

    You do you Ed. I will do me, and that farmer you so despise and revile >>>> will take care of his business and his family whether that includes
    either of us or not. In your case probably not.

    I once asked my dad why he had a huge selection of grade 2 grade 5 and >>>> grade 8 bolts in bulk bins in his country hardware store that was next >>>> door to my mom's country grocery and general store. My example was his >>>> example. I understood it to mean if you don't have the things people
    expect you to have for the type of business you have they will give up >>>> on you.

    They will get what they need elsewhere, and while they are
    there they will buy everything else too. I didn't get bogged down in
    petty details like you did. It was an example. Like a parable it was
    to illustrate a point. So is that farmer who is a member of my
    community, donates to the local youth organizations, and supports your >>>> business deserving of your contempt because he didn't have a part you
    think he should have instead of bother you in your hardware store.
    Probably not.

    We had farmers come in for field bolts to be used as shear pins. They
    were back up and running in a short time. Were they stupid. We didn't
    think so. They made money, supported our businesses, paid taxes that
    supported our school, and donated to local youth organizations. We
    believed in supporting those who supported us even if it was just
    stocking some lower turn rate items. Some of those farmers were my
    first customers in my own business ventures.


    Seems like there was difference in your Dad's clientele vs. the store you >>> are talking about. Obviously he was selling the bolts (you said so) so it >>> made sense to stock them. Your guy says you are the only one that
    needed the bolt that he didn't have (you said so).

    Was your dad in the habit of stocking every one-off item that each
    individual farmer might come in for on a very rare occasion? Sounds
    to me like he stocked what was selling. Smart man.
    Sounds like you are bound and determined to say I am wrong no matter
    what. We didn't make any money having a huge selection of bolts. We
    made money by keeping the customer in the store.

    Then your story about the bolts didn't mean anything. If they weren't buying the bolts, they were coming for the other stuff he stocked. Are you saying that
    if your Dad didn't have a huge selection of bolts, the customers would have gone away?

    I'm just trying to keep this straight.


    Ok, I give up on you. Best of luck and happy life.



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  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to jclarke.873638@gmail.com on Sun Feb 20 16:03:48 2022
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 23:37:55 -0500, J. Clarke
    <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 22:48:16 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 8:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 5:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

    If you don't understand it or you refuse to understand it then there is
    no point in visiting Ed's Country Hardware store either. I didn't even
    have to go there to know he won't have it, and if I ask he will treat me >>> like dirt for asking. I'll just skip that place and head for town to
    get ALL of what I need.

    Just because the bank and I share ownership of an 800 million dollar
    combine it doesn't mean I have cash on hand to buy every spare part I
    should in your opinion, and dead simple items like a bolt should be
    available at any hardware store where the owner doesn't have his head up >>> his....


    It is a consumable. If you don't have a shear pin, a commonly used item >>for your machine you are not operating very smart and the bank would be >>smart to foreclose. Don't blame your incompetence on my lack of $2
    shear pins.

    When I had to use one of the two that came with my snowblower I bought
    two more at Lowes. Call John Deere.

    Did Ed sell him the combine? If not then why does he expect Ed to
    stock parts for it?

    Because that's the business he's in?

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  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 20 16:42:59 2022
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 10:11:27 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 10:33 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 21:00:02 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 6:10 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 15:13:34 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer >>>>>>>>> service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not >>>>>>>>> take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two >>>>>>>>> stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man. >>>>>>>> The writing was on the wall. Inventory selection has been at a >>>>>>>> constant decline ever since. Clearly the son was applying turn rate >>>>>>>> and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore the >>>>>>>> fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the turn >>>>>>>> rate items elsewhere too. I get less and less at Harbor Freight >>>>>>>> simply because they don't have the huge array of single use specialty >>>>>>>> tools they used to have. At least now they have a website that >>>>>>>> usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally or not. Not >>>>>>>> always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening. I went in to >>>>>>>> buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line. Along with that >>>>>>>> trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories It had >>>>>>>> one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the shelf, so I >>>>>>>> grabbed a tag and all the accessories. I made a point of handing the >>>>>>>> tag to the cashier first. I didn't set any of my other stuff on the >>>>>>>> counter. She took the tag and set it aside. Then she proceeded to >>>>>>>> take stuff out of my cart to ring it up. I stopped her and said, >>>>>>>> "Lets get somebody on that pump first."

    She replied that she didn't need to check. She knew they didn't have >>>>>>>> any in stock. I let here know I'd checked the website before coming. >>>>>>>> She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have any, but >>>>>>>> I'll check." Then she finally punched it in, and said, "Yeah only >>>>>>>> the display model." She immediately started ringing up the
    accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the pump >>>>>>>> it goes with?" She just looked at me like I was an idiot. I walked >>>>>>>> around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple days >>>>>>>> instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not. Maybe its working >>>>>>>> for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI: There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon. (20% for >>>>>>>> In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most all >>>>>>> manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards.


    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in the >>>>>> back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the Harbor
    Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as thumbing through >>>>>> an Alden's Christmas toy catalog. The Harbor Freight Catalog was almost >>>>>> as thick, and it was printed on almost bible thin paper. Now they >>>>>> couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item. The used to sell 15-20 different metal lathes. >>>>>> Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2 metal lathes >>>>>> they sell are the same machine with different length beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell. It didn't happen >>>>>> from covid either. It clearly and definitely started when Old Man >>>>>> Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic >>>>>> general business principles. In college even the business instructor >>>>>> who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down from the mountain >>>>>> grudgingly admitted there were exceptions. Maybe Harbor Freight needed >>>>>> to clean up a little bit, but removing more than 90% of their selection >>>>>> wasn't the right answer either.



    You stock what sells. Floor space is valuable.

    If you don't stock enough variety to get people in the door, the cost
    of floor space is irrelevant.

    So if you buy everything, you go broke and close the doors.

    Evidently there is a happy medium. I don't know if HF is there,
    mainly because there isn't much there I want.

    Evidently and eventually. Precisely.
    I have not seen Harbor Freight financials so I could not say with
    certainty if they are in trouble or not. But any business remaining in >business during the past 2 years is doing something right. Is HF public
    or private?

    They seem to be dipping into the finance pool quite a bit. It's
    privately held.


    Certainly variety is a draw but you have to be able to control your
    money. I am not sure if I have ever heard of a company that started out >>> offering everything. No one really knows what is going to sell with a >>> start up business. So you start with inventory that will sustain the
    business. Add variety as business warrants.

    HF isn't a new business. It seems they're always in trouble.

    I could not say.

    Scandal and repeated financing rounds.

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  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 20 16:35:19 2022
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 10:42:04 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 10:29 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:54:28 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 6:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 6:38 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer >>>>>>>>>> service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will >>>>>>>>>> not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of >>>>>>>>>> two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent. >>>>>>>>>

    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man. >>>>>>>>> The writing was on the wall. Inventory selection has been at a >>>>>>>>> constant decline ever since. Clearly the son was applying turn >>>>>>>>> rate and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore >>>>>>>>> the fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the >>>>>>>>> turn rate items elsewhere too. I get less and less at Harbor >>>>>>>>> Freight simply because they don't have the huge array of single >>>>>>>>> use specialty tools they used to have. At least now they have a >>>>>>>>> website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally >>>>>>>>> or not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening. I went in >>>>>>>>> to buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line. Along with >>>>>>>>> that trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories >>>>>>>>> It had one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the >>>>>>>>> shelf, so I grabbed a tag and all the accessories. I made a point >>>>>>>>> of handing the tag to the cashier first. I didn't set any of my >>>>>>>>> other stuff on the counter. She took the tag and set it aside. >>>>>>>>> Then she proceeded to take stuff out of my cart to ring it up. I >>>>>>>>> stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on that pump first." >>>>>>>>>
    She replied that she didn't need to check. She knew they didn't >>>>>>>>> have any in stock. I let here know I'd checked the website before >>>>>>>>> coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have >>>>>>>>> any, but I'll check." Then she finally punched it in, and said, >>>>>>>>> "Yeah only the display model." She immediately started ringing up >>>>>>>>> the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the >>>>>>>>> pump it goes with?" She just looked at me like I was an idiot. I >>>>>>>>> walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple >>>>>>>>> days instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not. Maybe its >>>>>>>>> working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI: There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon. (20% >>>>>>>>> for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most >>>>>>>> all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards. >>>>>>>

    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in >>>>>>> the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the
    Harbor Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as
    thumbing through an Alden's Christmas toy catalog. The Harbor
    Freight Catalog was almost as thick, and it was printed on almost >>>>>>> bible thin paper. Now they couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item. The used to sell 15-20 different metal
    lathes. Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2 >>>>>>> metal lathes they sell are the same machine with different length beds. >>>>>>>
    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell. It didn't
    happen from covid either. It clearly and definitely started when >>>>>>> Old Man Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic >>>>>>> general business principles. In college even the business
    instructor who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down >>>>>>> from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions. Maybe >>>>>>> Harbor Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more >>>>>>> than 90% of their selection wasn't the right answer either.



    You stock what sells. Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field
    bolt because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and
    you tell me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who buys >>>>> them and its not worth it for us. I'll say "ok," load my wife and
    kids back in the pickup truck and head into town. While I'm in town >>>>> I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of stopping >>>>> next door at your grocery store for them. Since I'm already in town I >>>>> buy the new stove the old lady wanted, and purchase that new rifle I >>>>> had been eyeballing in your gun rack. So because you were to stubborn >>>>> to stock what I needed I bought a bunch of high turn rate items and a >>>>> couple high margin items from somebody else. Instead of having some >>>>> stocking costs you lost a huge number of sales.

    Oh pleeeeease, that is not how the retail world works, those that remain >>> in business. It is a daily occurrence that customers walk out of stores >>> all over the world and empty handed every day. One does not remain in
    business by continuing to buy an item that no longer warrants space on
    the shelf or by stocking "everything" and not ever selling some of it.

    And referring back to all those lathes, 60 was it? I seriously doubt
    that those lathes were in his stock. Certainly he had access to a
    source that he could become a middle man with that variety. And of
    those 60 lathes they certainly would be shipped direct to the customer
    and not from a single source/manufacturer.

    Several woodworking stores sell and stock SawStop. You can buy a table
    saw right when you walk inside and pay and load it in your truck. BUT
    with a very popular model and is the original model, you cannot do this. >>> You pay and the saw is shipped direct from one of Woodcraft's sources. >>> This is why their catalog has more in it than you can go to the store
    and walk out with. That is ONE example of many.

    I was the local Woodcraft today. They had three models of SSs in
    stock. They didn't have any of the Laguna saws in stock but sold one
    anyway. ;-) They also had all three models (16/32. 19/36, and 25/50)
    of the Supermax drum sanders and a couple of Jets. I didn't know that
    drum sanders were so popular.

    They were short of the mid/high end lathes because the lead time is so
    long, at least three months, and they're selling like hotcakes. They
    had four mobility kits for the Revo 18/36 ($700 for wheels) on the
    floor waiting for something to put them on.

    Of course they can't carry everything but they keep a lot more
    expensive inventory in the store than one would expect. OTOH, their
    Festool inventory is really shabby, particularly accessories.

    Some stores do stock a lot of inventory. But possibly, and this has
    happened to me in the past, items on back order show up all at once.
    You tend to be over stocked as a result. With supply chain difficulties
    you order as much as you can and hope for the best. This is not totally >unlike a back order from the source.

    I recall way back when GM was having issues with catalytic converters.
    We were replacing 4~5 per day and we could not get enough. This seemed
    to go on for years. I finally got my back ordered converters in a
    single shipment of over 200 units. I typically ordered 10~15 every two
    weeks. To put that into perspective that increased the value of my
    inventory by 20%. This was 40 years ago and GM parts was in Houston
    also. I did not stock the obscure stuff, I let the other dealers bloat
    their inventories with these odd parts. I stocked items that moved and >bought the odd stuff as needed and daily. GMPD was not in particular
    happy with me. They wanted me to keep a 120 day supply of parts. I saw
    no need for more than 60. So my inventory was probably half of what
    they thought I should have.

    The 120 day supply was to buffer their inability to supply parts. I had >plenty of other sources than GMPD to get GM parts.


    So what may appear to be a well stocked show room floor could be back
    orders or product finally being delivered all at once.

    Could be but they've always had SSs in stock and, at least in the fall
    of 2020 they had all of the SuperMax sanders and at least six or eight
    lathes in stock, including three Laguna models, a Powermatic, and a
    bunch of midis of various sorts. There are two Woodcrafts in town.
    Between the two, they stock a good slice of the stationary machinery
    market.

    I wish they'd get the back-ordered Festool accessories back in stock.
    I may be near Highland in a couple of weeks. They're usually good,
    though they're out of the Shaper 1/8" collet.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 20 16:20:07 2022
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 13:33:18 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
    wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 1:15 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 12:28 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 12:45:41 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 8:48 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 8:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 5:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

    If you don't understand it or you refuse to understand it then there >>>>>> is no point in visiting Ed's Country Hardware store either. I didn't >>>>>> even have to go there to know he won't have it, and if I ask he will >>>>>> treat me like dirt for asking. I'll just skip that place and head for >>>>>> town to get ALL of what I need.

    Just because the bank and I share ownership of an 800 million dollar >>>>>> combine it doesn't mean I have cash on hand to buy every spare part I >>>>>> should in your opinion, and dead simple items like a bolt should be >>>>>> available at any hardware store where the owner doesn't have his head >>>>>> up his....


    It is a consumable. If you don't have a shear pin, a commonly used
    item
    for your machine you are not operating very smart and the bank would be >>>>> smart to foreclose. Don't blame your incompetence on my lack of $2 >>>>> shear pins.
    Ok, No problem. You have no respect and in fact express sentiments
    approaching hatred for anybody who makes a mistake and you wish upon
    them foreclosure bankruptcy and the destitution and starvation of their >>>> family, their employees and their employee's families. (This is the
    logical extension of what YOU said.) I sincerely appreciate you making >>>> yourself so clear. Nobody blames you for not having a part. I'm
    telling you the consequences. Its a choice you make.

    In the case of Harbor Freight they have less and less selection. Is it >>>> working for them? Maybe. I don't know. I know that in the past I
    would always check Harbor Freight for a single use tool or tools to be >>>> used in high loss environments. Now I usually don't. Their huge
    reduction in selection doesn't just mean I don't buy the tool they don't >>>> have, but I often don't even check for the tool they do have. Its not
    just because they didn't have just one part as illustrated in my
    example. Its because they didn't have one part or one tool many times. >>>> Is my business unimportant to them. Probably. It doesn't mean that
    the loss of sales they could have made from many different people who
    also quit checking does not have an impact.

    You do you Ed. I will do me, and that farmer you so despise and revile >>>> will take care of his business and his family whether that includes
    either of us or not. In your case probably not.

    I once asked my dad why he had a huge selection of grade 2 grade 5 and >>>> grade 8 bolts in bulk bins in his country hardware store that was next >>>> door to my mom's country grocery and general store. My example was his >>>> example. I understood it to mean if you don't have the things people
    expect you to have for the type of business you have they will give up >>>> on you.

    They will get what they need elsewhere, and while they are
    there they will buy everything else too. I didn't get bogged down in
    petty details like you did. It was an example. Like a parable it was
    to illustrate a point. So is that farmer who is a member of my
    community, donates to the local youth organizations, and supports your >>>> business deserving of your contempt because he didn't have a part you
    think he should have instead of bother you in your hardware store.
    Probably not.

    We had farmers come in for field bolts to be used as shear pins. They
    were back up and running in a short time. Were they stupid. We didn't
    think so. They made money, supported our businesses, paid taxes that
    supported our school, and donated to local youth organizations. We
    believed in supporting those who supported us even if it was just
    stocking some lower turn rate items. Some of those farmers were my
    first customers in my own business ventures.


    Seems like there was difference in your Dad's clientele vs. the store you >>> are talking about. Obviously he was selling the bolts (you said so) so it >>> made sense to stock them. Your guy says you are the only one that
    needed the bolt that he didn't have (you said so).

    Was your dad in the habit of stocking every one-off item that each
    individual farmer might come in for on a very rare occasion? Sounds
    to me like he stocked what was selling. Smart man.

    Sounds like you are bound and determined to say I am wrong no matter
    what. We didn't make any money having a huge selection of bolts. We
    made money by keeping the customer in the store.

    Here is a parallel. Home Depot comes into a medium size or small city
    for the first time with a very broad selection. They can't compete for >personal service with the small local stores, but they can be price (if
    they want to) competetive due to their massive buying power. Because
    people can get everything they need in one store a lot of other stores
    go out of business or are forced to dramatically change. Then prices
    creep up and selection goes down. That seems smart for Home Depot, but
    customers start buying the things they need online because Home Depot
    doesn't have everything any longer. Then the customers discover they
    can buy everything online and cheaper. Who is the biggest retailer in
    the world? Amazon. Coincidentally they have the broadest range of
    products of any retailer in the world as well. Is Home depot going out
    of business. Not any time soon, because we still go there if they do
    have what we need and we have to have it today. They still have a
    broader range of product than any other local retailer in their range of >products. We can still pay cash at Home Depot. They just don't have
    the range in each department that they did when they opened the store. >Personally I think of Home Depot now as not much different from Harbor >Freight. Unless I need it now and I know they have it in stock today I
    just don't go there, and if I don't need it today I can almost always
    have it delivered for the same or less. As a result they don't sell me
    the stuff they don't have, and because there is a lot they no longer
    have they don't sell me a lot of the stuff they do have either because I
    just don't check.

    Interesting, relevant, and very recent story. A couple of weeks ago I
    was looking for insulation retaining wires to hold the ceiling
    insulation in my basement. The builder, of course, cheaped out and
    used about half what he should have, so working up there anyway, I
    thought I'd add them where needed. The only ones HD sold were 12".
    The joists are 16" OC but manufactured so there isn't 14.5" between
    them but 15.5". Even 16" wires wouldn't work. The next size up is
    24".

    Anyway, HD didn't have any locally and were not orderable. So, Amazon
    is the next best thing. Two days later I have the wires in hand. Yep,
    they were shipped from HD. I guess Craig Menear and Jeff Bezos are
    golfing buddies, or something.

    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held
    onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department
    over to an online presence instead of shutting it down. In 1993 when
    they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely >starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Sun Feb 20 19:05:10 2022
    On 2/20/2022 3:35 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 10:42:04 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 10:29 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:54:28 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 6:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 6:38 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer >>>>>>>>>>> service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will >>>>>>>>>>> not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of >>>>>>>>>>> two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent. >>>>>>>>>>

    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man. >>>>>>>>>> The writing was on the wall.  Inventory selection has been at a >>>>>>>>>> constant decline ever since.  Clearly the son was applying turn >>>>>>>>>> rate and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore >>>>>>>>>> the fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the >>>>>>>>>> turn rate items elsewhere too.  I get less and less at Harbor >>>>>>>>>> Freight simply because they don't have the huge array of single >>>>>>>>>> use specialty tools they used to have.  At least now they have a >>>>>>>>>> website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally >>>>>>>>>> or not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening.  I went in >>>>>>>>>> to buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line.  Along with >>>>>>>>>> that trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories >>>>>>>>>> It had one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the >>>>>>>>>> shelf, so I grabbed a tag and all the accessories.  I made a point >>>>>>>>>> of handing the tag to the cashier first.  I didn't set any of my >>>>>>>>>> other stuff on the counter.  She took the tag and set it aside. >>>>>>>>>> Then she proceeded to take stuff out of my cart to ring it up.  I >>>>>>>>>> stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on that pump first." >>>>>>>>>>
    She replied that she didn't need to check.  She knew they didn't >>>>>>>>>> have any in stock.  I let here know I'd checked the website before >>>>>>>>>> coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have >>>>>>>>>> any, but I'll check."  Then she finally punched it in, and said, >>>>>>>>>> "Yeah only the display model."  She immediately started ringing up >>>>>>>>>> the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the >>>>>>>>>> pump it goes with?"  She just looked at me like I was an idiot.  I >>>>>>>>>> walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple >>>>>>>>>> days instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not.  Maybe its >>>>>>>>>> working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI:  There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon.  (20% >>>>>>>>>> for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most >>>>>>>>> all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards. >>>>>>>>

    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in >>>>>>>> the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the >>>>>>>> Harbor Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as
    thumbing through an Alden's Christmas toy catalog.  The Harbor >>>>>>>> Freight Catalog was almost as thick, and it was printed on almost >>>>>>>> bible thin paper. Now they couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item.  The used to sell 15-20 different metal >>>>>>>> lathes. Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2 >>>>>>>> metal lathes they sell are the same machine with different length beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell.  It didn't >>>>>>>> happen from covid either.  It clearly and definitely started when >>>>>>>> Old Man Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic >>>>>>>> general business principles.  In college even the business
    instructor who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down >>>>>>>> from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions.  Maybe >>>>>>>> Harbor Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more >>>>>>>> than 90% of their selection wasn't the right answer either.



    You stock what sells.  Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field >>>>>> bolt because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and >>>>>> you tell me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who buys >>>>>> them and its not worth it for us.  I'll say "ok," load my wife and >>>>>> kids back in the pickup truck and head into town.  While I'm in town >>>>>> I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of stopping >>>>>> next door at your grocery store for them.  Since I'm already in town I >>>>>> buy the new stove the old lady wanted, and purchase that new rifle I >>>>>> had been eyeballing in your gun rack. So because you were to stubborn >>>>>> to stock what I needed I bought a bunch of high turn rate items and a >>>>>> couple high margin items from somebody else.  Instead of having some >>>>>> stocking costs you lost a huge number of sales.

    Oh pleeeeease, that is not how the retail world works, those that remain >>>> in business. It is a daily occurrence that customers walk out of stores >>>> all over the world and empty handed every day. One does not remain in >>>> business by continuing to buy an item that no longer warrants space on >>>> the shelf or by stocking "everything" and not ever selling some of it. >>>>
    And referring back to all those lathes, 60 was it? I seriously doubt
    that those lathes were in his stock. Certainly he had access to a
    source that he could become a middle man with that variety. And of
    those 60 lathes they certainly would be shipped direct to the customer >>>> and not from a single source/manufacturer.

    Several woodworking stores sell and stock SawStop. You can buy a table >>>> saw right when you walk inside and pay and load it in your truck. BUT >>>> with a very popular model and is the original model, you cannot do this. >>>> You pay and the saw is shipped direct from one of Woodcraft's sources. >>>> This is why their catalog has more in it than you can go to the store >>>> and walk out with. That is ONE example of many.

    I was the local Woodcraft today. They had three models of SSs in
    stock. They didn't have any of the Laguna saws in stock but sold one
    anyway. ;-) They also had all three models (16/32. 19/36, and 25/50)
    of the Supermax drum sanders and a couple of Jets. I didn't know that
    drum sanders were so popular.

    They were short of the mid/high end lathes because the lead time is so
    long, at least three months, and they're selling like hotcakes. They
    had four mobility kits for the Revo 18/36 ($700 for wheels) on the
    floor waiting for something to put them on.

    Of course they can't carry everything but they keep a lot more
    expensive inventory in the store than one would expect. OTOH, their
    Festool inventory is really shabby, particularly accessories.

    Some stores do stock a lot of inventory. But possibly, and this has
    happened to me in the past, items on back order show up all at once.
    You tend to be over stocked as a result. With supply chain difficulties
    you order as much as you can and hope for the best. This is not totally
    unlike a back order from the source.

    I recall way back when GM was having issues with catalytic converters.
    We were replacing 4~5 per day and we could not get enough. This seemed
    to go on for years. I finally got my back ordered converters in a
    single shipment of over 200 units. I typically ordered 10~15 every two
    weeks. To put that into perspective that increased the value of my
    inventory by 20%. This was 40 years ago and GM parts was in Houston
    also. I did not stock the obscure stuff, I let the other dealers bloat
    their inventories with these odd parts. I stocked items that moved and
    bought the odd stuff as needed and daily. GMPD was not in particular
    happy with me. They wanted me to keep a 120 day supply of parts. I saw
    no need for more than 60. So my inventory was probably half of what
    they thought I should have.

    The 120 day supply was to buffer their inability to supply parts. I had
    plenty of other sources than GMPD to get GM parts.


    So what may appear to be a well stocked show room floor could be back
    orders or product finally being delivered all at once.

    Could be but they've always had SSs in stock and,

    Unless something has changed, SS did not send the ICS models to
    Woodcraft except for a display model. When I bought and even relatively recently the ICS TS was shipped direct to the customer after placing the
    order with Woodcraft.



    at least in the fall
    of 2020 they had all of the SuperMax sanders and at least six or eight
    lathes in stock, including three Laguna models, a Powermatic, and a
    bunch of midis of various sorts. There are two Woodcrafts in town.
    Between the two, they stock a good slice of the stationary machinery
    market.

    I wish they'd get the back-ordered Festool accessories back in stock.
    I may be near Highland in a couple of weeks. They're usually good,
    though they're out of the Shaper 1/8" collet.

    Because of Festool's pricing structure if my local Woodcraft does not
    have the parts I order from Amazon for the same price with no shipping.
    For the past year the parts ordered through Amazon have been shipped
    direct from Hartville Hardware.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 20 20:04:32 2022
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 18:53:49 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 2:45 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 10:52 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 8:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 8:34:57 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote: >>>>> On 2/19/2022 5:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 6:38 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst >>>>>>>>>>>> customer
    service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will >>>>>>>>>>>> not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The >>>>>>>>>>>> staff of
    two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent. >>>>>>>>>>>

    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man. >>>>>>>>>>> The writing was on the wall. Inventory selection has been at a >>>>>>>>>>> constant decline ever since. Clearly the son was applying turn >>>>>>>>>>> rate and margin principles learned in business classes that >>>>>>>>>>> ignore
    the fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy >>>>>>>>>>> the
    turn rate items elsewhere too. I get less and less at Harbor >>>>>>>>>>> Freight simply because they don't have the huge array of single >>>>>>>>>>> use specialty tools they used to have. At least now they have a >>>>>>>>>>> website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally >>>>>>>>>>> or not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening. I went in >>>>>>>>>>> to buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line. Along with >>>>>>>>>>> that trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories >>>>>>>>>>> It had one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the >>>>>>>>>>> shelf, so I grabbed a tag and all the accessories. I made a >>>>>>>>>>> point
    of handing the tag to the cashier first. I didn't set any of my >>>>>>>>>>> other stuff on the counter. She took the tag and set it aside. >>>>>>>>>>> Then she proceeded to take stuff out of my cart to ring it up. I >>>>>>>>>>> stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on that pump first." >>>>>>>>>>>
    She replied that she didn't need to check. She knew they didn't >>>>>>>>>>> have any in stock. I let here know I'd checked the website >>>>>>>>>>> before
    coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have >>>>>>>>>>> any, but I'll check." Then she finally punched it in, and said, >>>>>>>>>>> "Yeah only the display model." She immediately started
    ringing up
    the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the >>>>>>>>>>> pump it goes with?" She just looked at me like I was an >>>>>>>>>>> idiot. I
    walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple >>>>>>>>>>> days instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not. Maybe its >>>>>>>>>>> working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI: There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon. (20% >>>>>>>>>>> for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most >>>>>>>>>> all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards. >>>>>>>>>

    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in >>>>>>>>> the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the >>>>>>>>> Harbor Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as >>>>>>>>> thumbing through an Alden's Christmas toy catalog. The Harbor >>>>>>>>> Freight Catalog was almost as thick, and it was printed on almost >>>>>>>>> bible thin paper. Now they couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item. The used to sell 15-20 different metal >>>>>>>>> lathes. Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2 >>>>>>>>> metal lathes they sell are the same machine with different
    length beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell. It didn't >>>>>>>>> happen from covid either. It clearly and definitely started when >>>>>>>>> Old Man Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic >>>>>>>>> general business principles. In college even the business
    instructor who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down >>>>>>>>> from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions. Maybe >>>>>>>>> Harbor Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more >>>>>>>>> than 90% of their selection wasn't the right answer either.



    You stock what sells. Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field >>>>>>> bolt because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and >>>>>>> you tell me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who >>>>>>> buys
    them and its not worth it for us. I'll say "ok," load my wife and >>>>>>> kids back in the pickup truck and head into town. While I'm in town >>>>>>> I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of stopping >>>>>>> next door at your grocery store for them. Since I'm already in
    town I
    buy the new stove the old lady wanted, and purchase that new rifle I >>>>>>> had been eyeballing in your gun rack. So because you were to stubborn >>>>>>> to stock what I needed I bought a bunch of high turn rate items and a >>>>>>> couple high margin items from somebody else. Instead of having some >>>>>>> stocking costs you lost a huge number of sales.

    When I get back to the farm and my mechanic asks why it took so long >>>>>>> to get the simple part she needed for the combine we get to talking. >>>>>>> I tell her I had to run into town for it and how much cheaper
    groceries were in town instead of Leon's Grocery store, and how I >>>>>>> bought this cool new rifle over at Joe's Gun Shop instead of Leon's >>>>>>> hardware store. I might even mention how much the old lady is
    pleased
    about the new stove she got to pick out at Home Depot.

    The farm mechanic heard two things in that. Leon doesn't have
    what we
    need, and things are cheaper in town. She tells her husband to go to >>>>>>> town for groceries, and while you are there pop over to O'Reilly Auto >>>>>>> for a new starter for the truck she is fixing up.

    Floor space is valuable, but telling customers what they need is not >>>>>>> important is stupid whether its said directly or indirectly.

    Here is one of those truisms that came down from the mountain for >>>>>>> you.
    Its a heck of a lot easier to sell to the customer who walks into >>>>>>> your
    store than the one walking down the street, and its an order of
    magnitude easier than trying to sell to the one who had to leave to >>>>>>> get what they really needed somewhere else.

    You should have had that part in your own stock. Shear pins are
    made to
    shear and if you did not have a spare it is your incompetence and lack >>>>>> of planning. When one breaks, order from Grainger or McMaster.
    And its always good business to sneer down your nose while insulting >>>>> your customer? They sure as hell didn't etch that one in stone and send >>>>> it down the mountain.

    Instead of taking care of the customer whether its your vain arrogance >>>>> and stupidity for refusing to stock a low turn rate item he WILL
    NEED or
    his for not already having one the fact is that its a lot harder to get >>>>> a customer back than it is to keep them in the first place. The
    customer still walked out.

    If you don't understand it or you refuse to understand it then there is >>>>> no point in visiting Ed's Country Hardware store either. I didn't even >>>>> have to go there to know he won't have it, and if I ask he will
    treat me
    like dirt for asking. I'll just skip that place and head for town to >>>>> get ALL of what I need.

    Maybe he treats you like dirt (if that's even true) because you have a >>>> lousy attitude. Attitude begets attitude; both positive and negative.


    Just because the bank and I share ownership of an 800 million dollar >>>>> combine it doesn't mean I have cash on hand to buy every spare part I >>>>> should in your opinion, and dead simple items like a bolt should be
    available at any hardware store where the owner doesn't have his
    head up
    his....

    "Dead simple items like a bolt" is not the same as "the exact bolt
    that you
    needed". I'll bet he stocks hundreds of different sizes and types of
    bolt. He
    just doesn't stock the one that no one (except you) buys. How hard is
    that
    for you to understand?

    Do you stock every single flavor of ice cream on the off chance that
    a guest
    might want some Tillamook Marionberry Pie? What, you don't? What a
    terrible
    host you are.

    And don't come back and tell us that the bolt you wanted is "common".
    It's not
    common for his clientele. He told you that. He's not in business to
    make only
    *you* happy. But guess what: He is in business. If he was doing such
    a terrible
    job and was such a lousy businessman, he'd have been out of business
    a long
    time ago. The mere fact that he runs a thriving business is proof
    that he is making
    the right decisions regarding what he stocks.


    I understand. It doesn't mean while I'm in town getting what I "need"
    I won't buy all the other things I need too. Things you/he stock. Is
    my attitude crummy? Maybe, but Ed expressed his here. Mine as
    expressed here is only a reaction to his.






    I'm probably spinning my wheels here, but I'll give it one last try
    before giving up on you.

    Here is a parallel. Home Depot comes into a medium size or small city
    for the first time with a very broad selection. They can't compete for
    personal service with the small local stores, but they can be price (if
    they want to) competitive due to their massive buying power. Because
    people can get everything they need in one store a lot of other stores
    go out of business or are forced to dramatically change. Then prices
    creep up and selection goes down. That seems smart for Home Depot, but
    customers start buying the things they need online because Home Depot
    doesn't have everything any longer. Then the customers discover they
    can buy everything online and cheaper (all in one place sometimes). Who
    is the biggest retailer in the world? Amazon. Coincidentally they have
    the broadest range of products of any retailer in the world as well. Is
    Home depot going out of business. Not any time soon, because we still
    go there if they do have what we need and we have to have it today. They
    still have a broader range of product than any other local retailer in
    their range of products. We can still pay cash at Home Depot. They
    just don't have the range in each department that they did when they
    opened the store. Personally I think of Home Depot now as not much
    different from Harbor Freight. Unless I need it now and I know they
    have it in stock today I just don't go there, and if I don't need it
    today I can almost always have it delivered for the same or less. As a
    result they don't sell me the stuff they don't have, and because there
    is a lot they no longer have they don't sell me a lot of the stuff they
    do have either because I just don't check.

    Musings for thought:

    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held
    onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department
    over to an online presence instead of shutting it down. In 1993 when
    they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely
    starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.


    Well Sears would probably still be here to day had they not tried to
    stock every thing.
    You know the dead stock for the one customer that comes in needing an
    odd ball gizmo.

    Well, they would probably still be here if they stocked anything
    people wanted to buy.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to Bob La Londe on Sun Feb 20 18:53:49 2022
    On 2/20/2022 2:45 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 10:52 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 8:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 8:34:57 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote: >>>> On 2/19/2022 5:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 6:38 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst >>>>>>>>>>> customer
    service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will >>>>>>>>>>> not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The >>>>>>>>>>> staff of
    two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent. >>>>>>>>>>

    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man. >>>>>>>>>> The writing was on the wall.  Inventory selection has been at a >>>>>>>>>> constant decline ever since.  Clearly the son was applying turn >>>>>>>>>> rate and margin principles learned in business classes that >>>>>>>>>> ignore
    the fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy >>>>>>>>>> the
    turn rate items elsewhere too.  I get less and less at Harbor >>>>>>>>>> Freight simply because they don't have the huge array of single >>>>>>>>>> use specialty tools they used to have.  At least now they have a >>>>>>>>>> website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally >>>>>>>>>> or not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening.  I went in >>>>>>>>>> to buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line.  Along with >>>>>>>>>> that trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories >>>>>>>>>> It had one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the >>>>>>>>>> shelf, so I grabbed a tag and all the accessories.  I made a >>>>>>>>>> point
    of handing the tag to the cashier first.  I didn't set any of my >>>>>>>>>> other stuff on the counter.  She took the tag and set it aside. >>>>>>>>>> Then she proceeded to take stuff out of my cart to ring it up.  I >>>>>>>>>> stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on that pump first." >>>>>>>>>>
    She replied that she didn't need to check.  She knew they didn't >>>>>>>>>> have any in stock.  I let here know I'd checked the website >>>>>>>>>> before
    coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have >>>>>>>>>> any, but I'll check."  Then she finally punched it in, and said, >>>>>>>>>> "Yeah only the display model."  She immediately started
    ringing up
    the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the >>>>>>>>>> pump it goes with?"  She just looked at me like I was an
    idiot.  I
    walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple >>>>>>>>>> days instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not.  Maybe its >>>>>>>>>> working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI:  There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon.  (20% >>>>>>>>>> for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most >>>>>>>>> all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards. >>>>>>>>

    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in >>>>>>>> the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the >>>>>>>> Harbor Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as
    thumbing through an Alden's Christmas toy catalog.  The Harbor >>>>>>>> Freight Catalog was almost as thick, and it was printed on almost >>>>>>>> bible thin paper. Now they couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item.  The used to sell 15-20 different metal >>>>>>>> lathes. Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2 >>>>>>>> metal lathes they sell are the same machine with different
    length beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell.  It didn't >>>>>>>> happen from covid either.  It clearly and definitely started when >>>>>>>> Old Man Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic >>>>>>>> general business principles.  In college even the business
    instructor who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down >>>>>>>> from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions.  Maybe >>>>>>>> Harbor Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more >>>>>>>> than 90% of their selection wasn't the right answer either.



    You stock what sells.  Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field >>>>>> bolt because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and >>>>>> you tell me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who
    buys
    them and its not worth it for us.  I'll say "ok," load my wife and >>>>>> kids back in the pickup truck and head into town.  While I'm in town >>>>>> I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of stopping >>>>>> next door at your grocery store for them.  Since I'm already in
    town I
    buy the new stove the old lady wanted, and purchase that new rifle I >>>>>> had been eyeballing in your gun rack. So because you were to stubborn >>>>>> to stock what I needed I bought a bunch of high turn rate items and a >>>>>> couple high margin items from somebody else.  Instead of having some >>>>>> stocking costs you lost a huge number of sales.

    When I get back to the farm and my mechanic asks why it took so long >>>>>> to get the simple part she needed for the combine we get to talking. >>>>>> I tell her I had to run into town for it and how much cheaper
    groceries were in town instead of Leon's Grocery store, and how I
    bought this cool new rifle over at Joe's Gun Shop instead of Leon's >>>>>> hardware store.  I might even mention how much the old lady is
    pleased
    about the new stove she got to pick out at Home Depot.

    The farm mechanic heard two things in that.  Leon doesn't have
    what we
    need, and things are cheaper in town.  She tells her husband to go to >>>>>> town for groceries, and while you are there pop over to O'Reilly Auto >>>>>> for a new starter for the truck she is fixing up.

    Floor space is valuable, but telling customers what they need is not >>>>>> important is stupid whether its said directly or indirectly.

    Here is one of those truisms that came down from the mountain for
    you.
    Its a heck of a lot easier to sell to the customer who walks into
    your
    store than the one walking down the street, and its an order of
    magnitude easier than trying to sell to the one who had to leave to >>>>>> get what they really needed somewhere else.

    You should have had that part in your own stock.  Shear pins are
    made to
    shear and if you did not have a spare it is your incompetence and lack >>>>> of planning.  When one breaks, order from Grainger or McMaster.
    And its always good business to sneer down your nose while insulting
    your customer? They sure as hell didn't etch that one in stone and send >>>> it down the mountain.

    Instead of taking care of the customer whether its your vain arrogance >>>> and stupidity for refusing to stock a low turn rate item he WILL
    NEED or
    his for not already having one the fact is that its a lot harder to get >>>> a customer back than it is to keep them in the first place. The
    customer still walked out.

    If you don't understand it or you refuse to understand it then there is >>>> no point in visiting Ed's Country Hardware store either. I didn't even >>>> have to go there to know he won't have it, and if I ask he will
    treat me
    like dirt for asking. I'll just skip that place and head for town to
    get ALL of what I need.

    Maybe he treats you like dirt (if that's even true) because you have a
    lousy attitude. Attitude begets attitude; both positive and negative.


    Just because the bank and I share ownership of an 800 million dollar
    combine it doesn't mean I have cash on hand to buy every spare part I
    should in your opinion, and dead simple items like a bolt should be
    available at any hardware store where the owner doesn't have his
    head up
    his....

    "Dead simple items like a bolt" is not the same as "the exact bolt
    that you
    needed". I'll bet he stocks hundreds of different sizes and types of
    bolt. He
    just doesn't stock the one that no one (except you) buys. How hard is
    that
    for you to understand?

    Do you stock every single flavor of ice cream on the off chance that
    a guest
    might want some Tillamook Marionberry Pie? What, you don't? What a
    terrible
    host you are.

    And don't come back and tell us that the bolt you wanted is "common".
    It's not
    common for his clientele. He told you that. He's not in business to
    make only
    *you* happy. But guess what: He is in business. If he was doing such
    a terrible
    job and was such a lousy businessman, he'd have been out of business
    a long
    time ago. The mere fact that he runs a thriving business is proof
    that he is making
    the right decisions regarding what he stocks.


    I understand.  It doesn't mean while I'm in town getting what I "need"
    I won't buy all the other things I need too.  Things you/he stock.  Is
    my attitude crummy?  Maybe, but Ed expressed his here.  Mine as
    expressed here is only a reaction to his.






    I'm probably spinning my wheels here, but I'll give it one last try
    before giving up on you.

    Here is a parallel.  Home Depot comes into a medium size or small city
    for the first time with a very broad selection.  They can't compete for personal service with the small local stores, but they can be price (if
    they want to) competitive due to their massive buying power.  Because
    people can get everything they need in one store a lot of other stores
    go out of business or are forced to dramatically change.  Then prices
    creep up and selection goes down.  That seems smart for Home Depot, but
      customers start buying the things they need online because Home Depot doesn't have everything any longer.  Then the customers discover they
    can buy everything online and cheaper (all in one place sometimes).  Who
    is the biggest retailer in the world?  Amazon.  Coincidentally they have the broadest range of products of any retailer in the world as well.  Is Home depot going out of business.  Not any time soon, because we still
    go there if they do have what we need and we have to have it today. They still have a broader range of product than any other local retailer in
    their range of products.  We can still pay cash at Home Depot.  They
    just don't have the range in each department that they did when they
    opened the store. Personally I think of Home Depot now as not much
    different from Harbor Freight.  Unless I need it now and I know they
    have it in stock today I just don't go there, and if I don't need it
    today I can almost always have it delivered for the same or less.  As a result they don't sell me the stuff they don't have, and because there
    is a lot they no longer have they don't sell me a lot of the stuff they
    do have either because I just don't check.

    Musings for thought:

    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held
    onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department
    over to an online presence instead of shutting it down.  In 1993 when
    they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.


    Well Sears would probably still be here to day had they not tried to
    stock every thing.
    You know the dead stock for the one customer that comes in needing an
    odd ball gizmo.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Sun Feb 20 19:41:22 2022
    On 2/20/2022 7:04 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 18:53:49 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 2:45 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 10:52 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 8:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 8:34:57 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote: >>>>>> On 2/19/2022 5:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 6:38 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst >>>>>>>>>>>>> customer
    service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will >>>>>>>>>>>>> not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The >>>>>>>>>>>>> staff of
    two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent. >>>>>>>>>>>>

    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man. >>>>>>>>>>>> The writing was on the wall.  Inventory selection has been at a >>>>>>>>>>>> constant decline ever since.  Clearly the son was applying turn >>>>>>>>>>>> rate and margin principles learned in business classes that >>>>>>>>>>>> ignore
    the fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy >>>>>>>>>>>> the
    turn rate items elsewhere too.  I get less and less at Harbor >>>>>>>>>>>> Freight simply because they don't have the huge array of single >>>>>>>>>>>> use specialty tools they used to have.  At least now they have a >>>>>>>>>>>> website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally >>>>>>>>>>>> or not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening.  I went in >>>>>>>>>>>> to buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line.  Along with >>>>>>>>>>>> that trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories >>>>>>>>>>>> It had one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the >>>>>>>>>>>> shelf, so I grabbed a tag and all the accessories.  I made a >>>>>>>>>>>> point
    of handing the tag to the cashier first.  I didn't set any of my >>>>>>>>>>>> other stuff on the counter.  She took the tag and set it aside. >>>>>>>>>>>> Then she proceeded to take stuff out of my cart to ring it up.  I >>>>>>>>>>>> stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on that pump first." >>>>>>>>>>>>
    She replied that she didn't need to check.  She knew they didn't >>>>>>>>>>>> have any in stock.  I let here know I'd checked the website >>>>>>>>>>>> before
    coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have >>>>>>>>>>>> any, but I'll check."  Then she finally punched it in, and said, >>>>>>>>>>>> "Yeah only the display model."  She immediately started >>>>>>>>>>>> ringing up
    the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the >>>>>>>>>>>> pump it goes with?"  She just looked at me like I was an >>>>>>>>>>>> idiot.  I
    walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple >>>>>>>>>>>> days instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not.  Maybe its >>>>>>>>>>>> working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI:  There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon.  (20% >>>>>>>>>>>> for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most >>>>>>>>>>> all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards. >>>>>>>>>>

    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in >>>>>>>>>> the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the >>>>>>>>>> Harbor Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as >>>>>>>>>> thumbing through an Alden's Christmas toy catalog.  The Harbor >>>>>>>>>> Freight Catalog was almost as thick, and it was printed on almost >>>>>>>>>> bible thin paper. Now they couldn't fill a good newsletter. >>>>>>>>>>
    Just look at one item.  The used to sell 15-20 different metal >>>>>>>>>> lathes. Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2 >>>>>>>>>> metal lathes they sell are the same machine with different >>>>>>>>>> length beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell.  It didn't >>>>>>>>>> happen from covid either.  It clearly and definitely started when >>>>>>>>>> Old Man Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic >>>>>>>>>> general business principles.  In college even the business >>>>>>>>>> instructor who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down >>>>>>>>>> from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions.  Maybe >>>>>>>>>> Harbor Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more >>>>>>>>>> than 90% of their selection wasn't the right answer either. >>>>>>>>>>


    You stock what sells.  Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field >>>>>>>> bolt because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and >>>>>>>> you tell me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who >>>>>>>> buys
    them and its not worth it for us.  I'll say "ok," load my wife and >>>>>>>> kids back in the pickup truck and head into town.  While I'm in town >>>>>>>> I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of stopping >>>>>>>> next door at your grocery store for them.  Since I'm already in >>>>>>>> town I
    buy the new stove the old lady wanted, and purchase that new rifle I >>>>>>>> had been eyeballing in your gun rack. So because you were to stubborn >>>>>>>> to stock what I needed I bought a bunch of high turn rate items and a >>>>>>>> couple high margin items from somebody else.  Instead of having some >>>>>>>> stocking costs you lost a huge number of sales.

    When I get back to the farm and my mechanic asks why it took so long >>>>>>>> to get the simple part she needed for the combine we get to talking. >>>>>>>> I tell her I had to run into town for it and how much cheaper
    groceries were in town instead of Leon's Grocery store, and how I >>>>>>>> bought this cool new rifle over at Joe's Gun Shop instead of Leon's >>>>>>>> hardware store.  I might even mention how much the old lady is >>>>>>>> pleased
    about the new stove she got to pick out at Home Depot.

    The farm mechanic heard two things in that.  Leon doesn't have >>>>>>>> what we
    need, and things are cheaper in town.  She tells her husband to go to >>>>>>>> town for groceries, and while you are there pop over to O'Reilly Auto >>>>>>>> for a new starter for the truck she is fixing up.

    Floor space is valuable, but telling customers what they need is not >>>>>>>> important is stupid whether its said directly or indirectly.

    Here is one of those truisms that came down from the mountain for >>>>>>>> you.
    Its a heck of a lot easier to sell to the customer who walks into >>>>>>>> your
    store than the one walking down the street, and its an order of >>>>>>>> magnitude easier than trying to sell to the one who had to leave to >>>>>>>> get what they really needed somewhere else.

    You should have had that part in your own stock.  Shear pins are >>>>>>> made to
    shear and if you did not have a spare it is your incompetence and lack >>>>>>> of planning.  When one breaks, order from Grainger or McMaster.
    And its always good business to sneer down your nose while insulting >>>>>> your customer? They sure as hell didn't etch that one in stone and send >>>>>> it down the mountain.

    Instead of taking care of the customer whether its your vain arrogance >>>>>> and stupidity for refusing to stock a low turn rate item he WILL
    NEED or
    his for not already having one the fact is that its a lot harder to get >>>>>> a customer back than it is to keep them in the first place. The
    customer still walked out.

    If you don't understand it or you refuse to understand it then there is >>>>>> no point in visiting Ed's Country Hardware store either. I didn't even >>>>>> have to go there to know he won't have it, and if I ask he will
    treat me
    like dirt for asking. I'll just skip that place and head for town to >>>>>> get ALL of what I need.

    Maybe he treats you like dirt (if that's even true) because you have a >>>>> lousy attitude. Attitude begets attitude; both positive and negative. >>>>>

    Just because the bank and I share ownership of an 800 million dollar >>>>>> combine it doesn't mean I have cash on hand to buy every spare part I >>>>>> should in your opinion, and dead simple items like a bolt should be >>>>>> available at any hardware store where the owner doesn't have his
    head up
    his....

    "Dead simple items like a bolt" is not the same as "the exact bolt
    that you
    needed". I'll bet he stocks hundreds of different sizes and types of >>>>> bolt. He
    just doesn't stock the one that no one (except you) buys. How hard is >>>>> that
    for you to understand?

    Do you stock every single flavor of ice cream on the off chance that >>>>> a guest
    might want some Tillamook Marionberry Pie? What, you don't? What a
    terrible
    host you are.

    And don't come back and tell us that the bolt you wanted is "common". >>>>> It's not
    common for his clientele. He told you that. He's not in business to
    make only
    *you* happy. But guess what: He is in business. If he was doing such >>>>> a terrible
    job and was such a lousy businessman, he'd have been out of business >>>>> a long
    time ago. The mere fact that he runs a thriving business is proof
    that he is making
    the right decisions regarding what he stocks.


    I understand.  It doesn't mean while I'm in town getting what I "need" >>>> I won't buy all the other things I need too.  Things you/he stock.  Is >>>> my attitude crummy?  Maybe, but Ed expressed his here.  Mine as
    expressed here is only a reaction to his.






    I'm probably spinning my wheels here, but I'll give it one last try
    before giving up on you.

    Here is a parallel.  Home Depot comes into a medium size or small city
    for the first time with a very broad selection.  They can't compete for >>> personal service with the small local stores, but they can be price (if
    they want to) competitive due to their massive buying power.  Because
    people can get everything they need in one store a lot of other stores
    go out of business or are forced to dramatically change.  Then prices
    creep up and selection goes down.  That seems smart for Home Depot, but >>>   customers start buying the things they need online because Home Depot >>> doesn't have everything any longer.  Then the customers discover they
    can buy everything online and cheaper (all in one place sometimes).  Who >>> is the biggest retailer in the world?  Amazon.  Coincidentally they have >>> the broadest range of products of any retailer in the world as well.  Is >>> Home depot going out of business.  Not any time soon, because we still
    go there if they do have what we need and we have to have it today. They >>> still have a broader range of product than any other local retailer in
    their range of products.  We can still pay cash at Home Depot.  They
    just don't have the range in each department that they did when they
    opened the store. Personally I think of Home Depot now as not much
    different from Harbor Freight.  Unless I need it now and I know they
    have it in stock today I just don't go there, and if I don't need it
    today I can almost always have it delivered for the same or less.  As a >>> result they don't sell me the stuff they don't have, and because there
    is a lot they no longer have they don't sell me a lot of the stuff they
    do have either because I just don't check.

    Musings for thought:

    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held >>> onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department
    over to an online presence instead of shutting it down.  In 1993 when
    they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely
    starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.


    Well Sears would probably still be here to day had they not tried to
    stock every thing.
    You know the dead stock for the one customer that comes in needing an
    odd ball gizmo.

    Well, they would probably still be here if they stocked anything
    people wanted to buy.


    They had too much money tied up in dead merchandise.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Pawlowski@21:1/5 to Bob La Londe on Sun Feb 20 21:09:48 2022
    On 2/20/2022 3:45 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:


    Musings for thought:

    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held
    onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department
    over to an online presence instead of shutting it down.  In 1993 when
    they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.


    Sears screwed up and did not see the future. If they did, Amazon may
    still be just a book seller.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Pawlowski@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Sun Feb 20 21:25:19 2022
    On 2/20/2022 4:20 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 13:33:18 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
    wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 1:15 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 12:28 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 12:45:41 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote: >>>>> On 2/19/2022 8:48 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 8:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 5:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

    If you don't understand it or you refuse to understand it then there >>>>>>> is no point in visiting Ed's Country Hardware store either.  I didn't >>>>>>> even have to go there to know he won't have it, and if I ask he will >>>>>>> treat me like dirt for asking.  I'll just skip that place and head for >>>>>>> town to get ALL of what I need.

    Just because the bank and I share ownership of an 800 million dollar >>>>>>> combine it doesn't mean I have cash on hand to buy every spare part I >>>>>>> should in your opinion, and dead simple items like a bolt should be >>>>>>> available at any hardware store where the owner doesn't have his head >>>>>>> up his....


    It is a consumable.  If you don't have a shear pin, a commonly used >>>>>> item
    for your machine you are not operating very smart and the bank would be >>>>>> smart to foreclose.   Don't blame your incompetence on my lack of $2 >>>>>> shear pins.
    Ok, No problem. You have no respect and in fact express sentiments
    approaching hatred for anybody who makes a mistake and you wish upon >>>>> them foreclosure bankruptcy and the destitution and starvation of their >>>>> family, their employees and their employee's families. (This is the
    logical extension of what YOU said.) I sincerely appreciate you making >>>>> yourself so clear. Nobody blames you for not having a part. I'm
    telling you the consequences. Its a choice you make.

    In the case of Harbor Freight they have less and less selection. Is it >>>>> working for them? Maybe. I don't know. I know that in the past I
    would always check Harbor Freight for a single use tool or tools to be >>>>> used in high loss environments. Now I usually don't. Their huge
    reduction in selection doesn't just mean I don't buy the tool they don't >>>>> have, but I often don't even check for the tool they do have. Its not >>>>> just because they didn't have just one part as illustrated in my
    example. Its because they didn't have one part or one tool many times. >>>>> Is my business unimportant to them. Probably. It doesn't mean that
    the loss of sales they could have made from many different people who >>>>> also quit checking does not have an impact.

    You do you Ed. I will do me, and that farmer you so despise and revile >>>>> will take care of his business and his family whether that includes
    either of us or not. In your case probably not.

    I once asked my dad why he had a huge selection of grade 2 grade 5 and >>>>> grade 8 bolts in bulk bins in his country hardware store that was next >>>>> door to my mom's country grocery and general store. My example was his >>>>> example. I understood it to mean if you don't have the things people >>>>> expect you to have for the type of business you have they will give up >>>>> on you.

    They will get what they need elsewhere, and while they are
    there they will buy everything else too. I didn't get bogged down in >>>>> petty details like you did. It was an example. Like a parable it was >>>>> to illustrate a point. So is that farmer who is a member of my
    community, donates to the local youth organizations, and supports your >>>>> business deserving of your contempt because he didn't have a part you >>>>> think he should have instead of bother you in your hardware store.
    Probably not.

    We had farmers come in for field bolts to be used as shear pins. They >>>>> were back up and running in a short time. Were they stupid. We didn't >>>>> think so. They made money, supported our businesses, paid taxes that >>>>> supported our school, and donated to local youth organizations. We
    believed in supporting those who supported us even if it was just
    stocking some lower turn rate items. Some of those farmers were my
    first customers in my own business ventures.


    Seems like there was difference in your Dad's clientele vs. the store you >>>> are talking about. Obviously he was selling the bolts (you said so) so it >>>> made sense to stock them. Your guy says you are the only one that
    needed the bolt that he didn't have (you said so).

    Was your dad in the habit of stocking every one-off item that each
    individual farmer might come in for on a very rare occasion? Sounds
    to me like he stocked what was selling. Smart man.

    Sounds like you are bound and determined to say I am wrong no matter
    what.  We didn't make any money having a huge selection of bolts.  We
    made money by keeping the customer in the store.

    Here is a parallel. Home Depot comes into a medium size or small city
    for the first time with a very broad selection. They can't compete for
    personal service with the small local stores, but they can be price (if
    they want to) competetive due to their massive buying power. Because
    people can get everything they need in one store a lot of other stores
    go out of business or are forced to dramatically change. Then prices
    creep up and selection goes down. That seems smart for Home Depot, but
    customers start buying the things they need online because Home Depot
    doesn't have everything any longer. Then the customers discover they
    can buy everything online and cheaper. Who is the biggest retailer in
    the world? Amazon. Coincidentally they have the broadest range of
    products of any retailer in the world as well. Is Home depot going out
    of business. Not any time soon, because we still go there if they do
    have what we need and we have to have it today. They still have a
    broader range of product than any other local retailer in their range of
    products. We can still pay cash at Home Depot. They just don't have
    the range in each department that they did when they opened the store.
    Personally I think of Home Depot now as not much different from Harbor
    Freight. Unless I need it now and I know they have it in stock today I
    just don't go there, and if I don't need it today I can almost always
    have it delivered for the same or less. As a result they don't sell me
    the stuff they don't have, and because there is a lot they no longer
    have they don't sell me a lot of the stuff they do have either because I
    just don't check.

    Interesting, relevant, and very recent story. A couple of weeks ago I
    was looking for insulation retaining wires to hold the ceiling
    insulation in my basement. The builder, of course, cheaped out and
    used about half what he should have, so working up there anyway, I
    thought I'd add them where needed. The only ones HD sold were 12".
    The joists are 16" OC but manufactured so there isn't 14.5" between
    them but 15.5". Even 16" wires wouldn't work. The next size up is
    24".

    They were probably not big sellers at your store. Did you try HD on line?

    I needed a 30# propane tank. My local Ace does not stock them but one
    12 miles away does.

    I wanted tile for a backsplash in the kitchen. Went to three tile
    specialty stores and nothing appealed to me. Waled in Lowe's and found
    one I really liked inside of a minute. Will be installed tomorrow.

    One store cannot be all things to all people but Amazon comes close. One
    reason is what you found out, they are connected to other sellers like HD.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 20 21:44:26 2022
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 19:41:22 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 7:04 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 18:53:49 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 2:45 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 10:52 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 8:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Saturday, February 19, 2022 at 8:34:57 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote: >>>>>>> On 2/19/2022 5:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 6:38 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst >>>>>>>>>>>>>> customer
    service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The >>>>>>>>>>>>>> staff of
    two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent. >>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The writing was on the wall. Inventory selection has been at a >>>>>>>>>>>>> constant decline ever since. Clearly the son was applying turn >>>>>>>>>>>>> rate and margin principles learned in business classes that >>>>>>>>>>>>> ignore
    the fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy >>>>>>>>>>>>> the
    turn rate items elsewhere too. I get less and less at Harbor >>>>>>>>>>>>> Freight simply because they don't have the huge array of single >>>>>>>>>>>>> use specialty tools they used to have. At least now they have a >>>>>>>>>>>>> website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally >>>>>>>>>>>>> or not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening. I went in >>>>>>>>>>>>> to buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line. Along with >>>>>>>>>>>>> that trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories >>>>>>>>>>>>> It had one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the >>>>>>>>>>>>> shelf, so I grabbed a tag and all the accessories. I made a >>>>>>>>>>>>> point
    of handing the tag to the cashier first. I didn't set any of my >>>>>>>>>>>>> other stuff on the counter. She took the tag and set it aside. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Then she proceeded to take stuff out of my cart to ring it up. I >>>>>>>>>>>>> stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on that pump first." >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    She replied that she didn't need to check. She knew they didn't >>>>>>>>>>>>> have any in stock. I let here know I'd checked the website >>>>>>>>>>>>> before
    coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have >>>>>>>>>>>>> any, but I'll check." Then she finally punched it in, and said, >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Yeah only the display model." She immediately started >>>>>>>>>>>>> ringing up
    the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the >>>>>>>>>>>>> pump it goes with?" She just looked at me like I was an >>>>>>>>>>>>> idiot. I
    walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple >>>>>>>>>>>>> days instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not. Maybe its >>>>>>>>>>>>> working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    FYI: There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon. (20% >>>>>>>>>>>>> for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most >>>>>>>>>>>> all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards. >>>>>>>>>>>

    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in >>>>>>>>>>> the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the >>>>>>>>>>> Harbor Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as >>>>>>>>>>> thumbing through an Alden's Christmas toy catalog. The Harbor >>>>>>>>>>> Freight Catalog was almost as thick, and it was printed on almost >>>>>>>>>>> bible thin paper. Now they couldn't fill a good newsletter. >>>>>>>>>>>
    Just look at one item. The used to sell 15-20 different metal >>>>>>>>>>> lathes. Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2 >>>>>>>>>>> metal lathes they sell are the same machine with different >>>>>>>>>>> length beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell. It didn't >>>>>>>>>>> happen from covid either. It clearly and definitely started when >>>>>>>>>>> Old Man Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic >>>>>>>>>>> general business principles. In college even the business >>>>>>>>>>> instructor who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down >>>>>>>>>>> from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions. Maybe >>>>>>>>>>> Harbor Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more >>>>>>>>>>> than 90% of their selection wasn't the right answer either. >>>>>>>>>>>


    You stock what sells. Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field >>>>>>>>> bolt because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and >>>>>>>>> you tell me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who >>>>>>>>> buys
    them and its not worth it for us. I'll say "ok," load my wife and >>>>>>>>> kids back in the pickup truck and head into town. While I'm in town >>>>>>>>> I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of stopping >>>>>>>>> next door at your grocery store for them. Since I'm already in >>>>>>>>> town I
    buy the new stove the old lady wanted, and purchase that new rifle I >>>>>>>>> had been eyeballing in your gun rack. So because you were to stubborn >>>>>>>>> to stock what I needed I bought a bunch of high turn rate items and a >>>>>>>>> couple high margin items from somebody else. Instead of having some >>>>>>>>> stocking costs you lost a huge number of sales.

    When I get back to the farm and my mechanic asks why it took so long >>>>>>>>> to get the simple part she needed for the combine we get to talking. >>>>>>>>> I tell her I had to run into town for it and how much cheaper >>>>>>>>> groceries were in town instead of Leon's Grocery store, and how I >>>>>>>>> bought this cool new rifle over at Joe's Gun Shop instead of Leon's >>>>>>>>> hardware store. I might even mention how much the old lady is >>>>>>>>> pleased
    about the new stove she got to pick out at Home Depot.

    The farm mechanic heard two things in that. Leon doesn't have >>>>>>>>> what we
    need, and things are cheaper in town. She tells her husband to go to >>>>>>>>> town for groceries, and while you are there pop over to O'Reilly Auto >>>>>>>>> for a new starter for the truck she is fixing up.

    Floor space is valuable, but telling customers what they need is not >>>>>>>>> important is stupid whether its said directly or indirectly. >>>>>>>>>
    Here is one of those truisms that came down from the mountain for >>>>>>>>> you.
    Its a heck of a lot easier to sell to the customer who walks into >>>>>>>>> your
    store than the one walking down the street, and its an order of >>>>>>>>> magnitude easier than trying to sell to the one who had to leave to >>>>>>>>> get what they really needed somewhere else.

    You should have had that part in your own stock. Shear pins are >>>>>>>> made to
    shear and if you did not have a spare it is your incompetence and lack >>>>>>>> of planning. When one breaks, order from Grainger or McMaster. >>>>>>> And its always good business to sneer down your nose while insulting >>>>>>> your customer? They sure as hell didn't etch that one in stone and send >>>>>>> it down the mountain.

    Instead of taking care of the customer whether its your vain arrogance >>>>>>> and stupidity for refusing to stock a low turn rate item he WILL >>>>>>> NEED or
    his for not already having one the fact is that its a lot harder to get >>>>>>> a customer back than it is to keep them in the first place. The
    customer still walked out.

    If you don't understand it or you refuse to understand it then there is >>>>>>> no point in visiting Ed's Country Hardware store either. I didn't even >>>>>>> have to go there to know he won't have it, and if I ask he will
    treat me
    like dirt for asking. I'll just skip that place and head for town to >>>>>>> get ALL of what I need.

    Maybe he treats you like dirt (if that's even true) because you have a >>>>>> lousy attitude. Attitude begets attitude; both positive and negative. >>>>>>

    Just because the bank and I share ownership of an 800 million dollar >>>>>>> combine it doesn't mean I have cash on hand to buy every spare part I >>>>>>> should in your opinion, and dead simple items like a bolt should be >>>>>>> available at any hardware store where the owner doesn't have his >>>>>>> head up
    his....

    "Dead simple items like a bolt" is not the same as "the exact bolt >>>>>> that you
    needed". I'll bet he stocks hundreds of different sizes and types of >>>>>> bolt. He
    just doesn't stock the one that no one (except you) buys. How hard is >>>>>> that
    for you to understand?

    Do you stock every single flavor of ice cream on the off chance that >>>>>> a guest
    might want some Tillamook Marionberry Pie? What, you don't? What a >>>>>> terrible
    host you are.

    And don't come back and tell us that the bolt you wanted is "common". >>>>>> It's not
    common for his clientele. He told you that. He's not in business to >>>>>> make only
    *you* happy. But guess what: He is in business. If he was doing such >>>>>> a terrible
    job and was such a lousy businessman, he'd have been out of business >>>>>> a long
    time ago. The mere fact that he runs a thriving business is proof
    that he is making
    the right decisions regarding what he stocks.


    I understand. It doesn't mean while I'm in town getting what I "need" >>>>> I won't buy all the other things I need too. Things you/he stock. Is >>>>> my attitude crummy? Maybe, but Ed expressed his here. Mine as
    expressed here is only a reaction to his.






    I'm probably spinning my wheels here, but I'll give it one last try
    before giving up on you.

    Here is a parallel. Home Depot comes into a medium size or small city >>>> for the first time with a very broad selection. They can't compete for >>>> personal service with the small local stores, but they can be price (if >>>> they want to) competitive due to their massive buying power. Because
    people can get everything they need in one store a lot of other stores >>>> go out of business or are forced to dramatically change. Then prices
    creep up and selection goes down. That seems smart for Home Depot, but >>>> customers start buying the things they need online because Home Depot >>>> doesn't have everything any longer. Then the customers discover they
    can buy everything online and cheaper (all in one place sometimes). Who >>>> is the biggest retailer in the world? Amazon. Coincidentally they have >>>> the broadest range of products of any retailer in the world as well. Is >>>> Home depot going out of business. Not any time soon, because we still >>>> go there if they do have what we need and we have to have it today. They >>>> still have a broader range of product than any other local retailer in >>>> their range of products. We can still pay cash at Home Depot. They
    just don't have the range in each department that they did when they
    opened the store. Personally I think of Home Depot now as not much
    different from Harbor Freight. Unless I need it now and I know they
    have it in stock today I just don't go there, and if I don't need it
    today I can almost always have it delivered for the same or less. As a >>>> result they don't sell me the stuff they don't have, and because there >>>> is a lot they no longer have they don't sell me a lot of the stuff they >>>> do have either because I just don't check.

    Musings for thought:

    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held >>>> onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department >>>> over to an online presence instead of shutting it down. In 1993 when
    they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely >>>> starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.


    Well Sears would probably still be here to day had they not tried to
    stock every thing.
    You know the dead stock for the one customer that comes in needing an
    odd ball gizmo.

    Well, they would probably still be here if they stocked anything
    people wanted to buy.


    They had too much money tied up in dead merchandise.

    It was dead inventory because it was overpriced crap that no one
    wanted. It wasn't because they sold too many loss-leaders.

    3/4s of the store was clothes that you could buy at K-Mart, at Macy's
    prices. Their tools went down the toilet. As noted, the only thing
    they had going for them was catalog sales. When that went down, they
    were a zombie, following Monkey Ward's tail. JC Penney is another that
    just couldn't change. Fat companies just won't/can't move. Killing
    your cash cow is really hard to do but if you don't, someone else will
    (IBM).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to Ed Pawlowski on Sun Feb 20 21:48:54 2022
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 21:09:48 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 3:45 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:


    Musings for thought:

    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held
    onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department
    over to an online presence instead of shutting it down. In 1993 when
    they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely
    starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.


    Sears screwed up and did not see the future. If they did, Amazon may
    still be just a book seller.

    Sears was a Titanic with no rudder. Seeing the future would have meant dismantling the present. That's exceedingly rare. "Creative
    destruction" is the term.

    Then there is the problem that Amazon made no money for a decade
    (longer?). Sears' stockholders would never have allowed that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to Ed Pawlowski on Sun Feb 20 21:35:20 2022
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 21:17:11 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 3:15 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:

    Sounds like you are bound and determined to say I am wrong no matter
    what. We didn't make any money having a huge selection of bolts. We
    made money by keeping the customer in the store.



    You stocked what sold. If you had that store in downtown Manhattan
    would you still have it? You made money selling what people wanted to
    buy.

    No, he's saying that some of what he stocked wasn't intended to make
    money, rather to keep customers in his store. It's not a lot
    different than BOGOs or loss-leaders. Get them an keep them, even if
    you have to sell some items below cost.

    Similarly, the "supply chain" problems are throwing a monkey wrench
    into the gear-box for many stores and chains. People can't find
    everything they're looking for at their normal store so have to go
    elsewhere. When they get elsewhere, elsewhere has a good shot of
    keeping them if _they_ can keep inventory. Some are doing a better
    job than others. There will be big losers.

    IMO, Walmart is going to win this battle. They have their own fleet
    of trucks and seem to optimize deliveries well. I've noticed that
    Walmart is the only store around with anything approaching stocked
    shelves.

    Ditto employees. A closed deli or meat/seafood department isn't going
    to help keep customers. If they can't pay employees and treat them
    right, they're going to lose. Costco and Sam's will clean up.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Pawlowski@21:1/5 to Bob La Londe on Sun Feb 20 21:17:11 2022
    On 2/20/2022 3:15 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:

    Sounds like you are bound and determined to say I am wrong no matter
    what.  We didn't make any money having a huge selection of bolts.  We
    made money by keeping the customer in the store.



    You stocked what sold. If you had that store in downtown Manhattan
    would you still have it? You made money selling what people wanted to
    buy.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 20 22:06:37 2022
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 19:05:10 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 3:35 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 10:42:04 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 10:29 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:54:28 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 6:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 6:38 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer >>>>>>>>>>>> service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will >>>>>>>>>>>> not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of >>>>>>>>>>>> two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent. >>>>>>>>>>>

    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man. >>>>>>>>>>> The writing was on the wall. Inventory selection has been at a >>>>>>>>>>> constant decline ever since. Clearly the son was applying turn >>>>>>>>>>> rate and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore >>>>>>>>>>> the fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the >>>>>>>>>>> turn rate items elsewhere too. I get less and less at Harbor >>>>>>>>>>> Freight simply because they don't have the huge array of single >>>>>>>>>>> use specialty tools they used to have. At least now they have a >>>>>>>>>>> website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally >>>>>>>>>>> or not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening. I went in >>>>>>>>>>> to buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line. Along with >>>>>>>>>>> that trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories >>>>>>>>>>> It had one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the >>>>>>>>>>> shelf, so I grabbed a tag and all the accessories. I made a point >>>>>>>>>>> of handing the tag to the cashier first. I didn't set any of my >>>>>>>>>>> other stuff on the counter. She took the tag and set it aside. >>>>>>>>>>> Then she proceeded to take stuff out of my cart to ring it up. I >>>>>>>>>>> stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on that pump first." >>>>>>>>>>>
    She replied that she didn't need to check. She knew they didn't >>>>>>>>>>> have any in stock. I let here know I'd checked the website before >>>>>>>>>>> coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have >>>>>>>>>>> any, but I'll check." Then she finally punched it in, and said, >>>>>>>>>>> "Yeah only the display model." She immediately started ringing up >>>>>>>>>>> the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the >>>>>>>>>>> pump it goes with?" She just looked at me like I was an idiot. I >>>>>>>>>>> walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple >>>>>>>>>>> days instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not. Maybe its >>>>>>>>>>> working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI: There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon. (20% >>>>>>>>>>> for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most >>>>>>>>>> all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards. >>>>>>>>>

    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in >>>>>>>>> the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the >>>>>>>>> Harbor Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as >>>>>>>>> thumbing through an Alden's Christmas toy catalog. The Harbor >>>>>>>>> Freight Catalog was almost as thick, and it was printed on almost >>>>>>>>> bible thin paper. Now they couldn't fill a good newsletter.

    Just look at one item. The used to sell 15-20 different metal >>>>>>>>> lathes. Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2 >>>>>>>>> metal lathes they sell are the same machine with different length beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell. It didn't >>>>>>>>> happen from covid either. It clearly and definitely started when >>>>>>>>> Old Man Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic >>>>>>>>> general business principles. In college even the business
    instructor who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down >>>>>>>>> from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions. Maybe >>>>>>>>> Harbor Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more >>>>>>>>> than 90% of their selection wasn't the right answer either.



    You stock what sells. Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field >>>>>>> bolt because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and >>>>>>> you tell me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who buys >>>>>>> them and its not worth it for us. I'll say "ok," load my wife and >>>>>>> kids back in the pickup truck and head into town. While I'm in town >>>>>>> I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of stopping >>>>>>> next door at your grocery store for them. Since I'm already in town I >>>>>>> buy the new stove the old lady wanted, and purchase that new rifle I >>>>>>> had been eyeballing in your gun rack. So because you were to stubborn >>>>>>> to stock what I needed I bought a bunch of high turn rate items and a >>>>>>> couple high margin items from somebody else. Instead of having some >>>>>>> stocking costs you lost a huge number of sales.

    Oh pleeeeease, that is not how the retail world works, those that remain >>>>> in business. It is a daily occurrence that customers walk out of stores >>>>> all over the world and empty handed every day. One does not remain in >>>>> business by continuing to buy an item that no longer warrants space on >>>>> the shelf or by stocking "everything" and not ever selling some of it. >>>>>
    And referring back to all those lathes, 60 was it? I seriously doubt >>>>> that those lathes were in his stock. Certainly he had access to a
    source that he could become a middle man with that variety. And of
    those 60 lathes they certainly would be shipped direct to the customer >>>>> and not from a single source/manufacturer.

    Several woodworking stores sell and stock SawStop. You can buy a table >>>>> saw right when you walk inside and pay and load it in your truck. BUT >>>>> with a very popular model and is the original model, you cannot do this. >>>>> You pay and the saw is shipped direct from one of Woodcraft's sources. >>>>> This is why their catalog has more in it than you can go to the store >>>>> and walk out with. That is ONE example of many.

    I was the local Woodcraft today. They had three models of SSs in
    stock. They didn't have any of the Laguna saws in stock but sold one
    anyway. ;-) They also had all three models (16/32. 19/36, and 25/50)
    of the Supermax drum sanders and a couple of Jets. I didn't know that
    drum sanders were so popular.

    They were short of the mid/high end lathes because the lead time is so >>>> long, at least three months, and they're selling like hotcakes. They
    had four mobility kits for the Revo 18/36 ($700 for wheels) on the
    floor waiting for something to put them on.

    Of course they can't carry everything but they keep a lot more
    expensive inventory in the store than one would expect. OTOH, their
    Festool inventory is really shabby, particularly accessories.

    Some stores do stock a lot of inventory. But possibly, and this has
    happened to me in the past, items on back order show up all at once.
    You tend to be over stocked as a result. With supply chain difficulties >>> you order as much as you can and hope for the best. This is not totally >>> unlike a back order from the source.

    I recall way back when GM was having issues with catalytic converters.
    We were replacing 4~5 per day and we could not get enough. This seemed
    to go on for years. I finally got my back ordered converters in a
    single shipment of over 200 units. I typically ordered 10~15 every two
    weeks. To put that into perspective that increased the value of my
    inventory by 20%. This was 40 years ago and GM parts was in Houston
    also. I did not stock the obscure stuff, I let the other dealers bloat
    their inventories with these odd parts. I stocked items that moved and
    bought the odd stuff as needed and daily. GMPD was not in particular
    happy with me. They wanted me to keep a 120 day supply of parts. I saw >>> no need for more than 60. So my inventory was probably half of what
    they thought I should have.

    The 120 day supply was to buffer their inability to supply parts. I had >>> plenty of other sources than GMPD to get GM parts.


    So what may appear to be a well stocked show room floor could be back
    orders or product finally being delivered all at once.

    Could be but they've always had SSs in stock and,

    Unless something has changed, SS did not send the ICS models to
    Woodcraft except for a display model. When I bought and even relatively >recently the ICS TS was shipped direct to the customer after placing the >order with Woodcraft.



    at least in the fall
    of 2020 they had all of the SuperMax sanders and at least six or eight
    lathes in stock, including three Laguna models, a Powermatic, and a
    bunch of midis of various sorts. There are two Woodcrafts in town.
    Between the two, they stock a good slice of the stationary machinery
    market.

    I wish they'd get the back-ordered Festool accessories back in stock.
    I may be near Highland in a couple of weeks. They're usually good,
    though they're out of the Shaper 1/8" collet.

    Because of Festool's pricing structure if my local Woodcraft does not
    have the parts I order from Amazon for the same price with no shipping.
    For the past year the parts ordered through Amazon have been shipped
    direct from Hartville Hardware.

    I tried to order the collet from Amazon. The only seller (Shaper)
    wanted $10 shipping for a $50 part. They're as bad as Woodpeckers.
    I've gotten as far as the checkout page at Woodpeckers and just
    deleted everything because the shipping costs were absurd. I did the
    same with Shaper.

    Highland does a good job stocking Festool. They had the edge sanding
    widget when it came out (though the store was closed for over a year). Woodcraft didn't know it existed. Still don't. Highland is out of the
    collets but their catalog says they'll be back in stock in a week or
    two. They said they try to keep five Origins and workstations in stock
    at all times. It's a well run family operation but obviously not as
    large as Hartsville.

    If anyone is buying stationary tools, WoodWerks didn't charge sales
    tax (and minimal shipping) on my jointer. I don't know how they got
    away with it but they did. They only collected Ohio and a couple of
    surrounding states' tax.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to k...@notreal.com on Sun Feb 20 19:03:05 2022
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 9:48:58 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 21:09:48 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 3:45 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:


    Musings for thought:

    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held >> onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department
    over to an online presence instead of shutting it down. In 1993 when
    they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely
    starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.


    Sears screwed up and did not see the future. If they did, Amazon may
    still be just a book seller.
    Sears was a Titanic with no rudder. Seeing the future would have meant dismantling the present. That's exceedingly rare.

    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.

    "Creative
    destruction" is the term.

    Then there is the problem that Amazon made no money for a decade
    (longer?). Sears' stockholders would never have allowed that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Mon Feb 21 00:06:39 2022
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 19:03:05 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 9:48:58 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 21:09:48 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 3:45 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:


    Musings for thought:

    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held >> >> onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department
    over to an online presence instead of shutting it down. In 1993 when
    they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely >> >> starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.


    Sears screwed up and did not see the future. If they did, Amazon may
    still be just a book seller.
    Sears was a Titanic with no rudder. Seeing the future would have meant
    dismantling the present. That's exceedingly rare.

    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.

    But they did see the future. They had some of the first/finest
    professional digital cameras. With their overhead, they couldn't
    scale them down to amateur photographers. Canon, Nikon, and Olympus
    did, then they lost to cell phones.

    Anyone remember Motorola? Blackberry?

    Panasonic with Plasma -> LED TVs. And a whole pile of personal
    products. US -> Japan -> Korea and China. Panasonic is entirely
    business to business now.

    IBM twice, from mainframes to PCs, and PCs to servers (essentially
    expensive PCs). Servers to out of the hardware business. Now,
    splitting into two companies. I hope they last another 15-20 years.
    ;-)

    Well, they did buy the Weather Channel. I wonder how much money it
    makes.

    Only 52 of the Fortune 500 companies on the list in 1955 are on it
    today.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to Ed Pawlowski on Sun Feb 20 23:34:06 2022
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 21:25:19 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 4:20 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 13:33:18 -0700, Bob La Londe <none@none.com99>
    wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 1:15 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 12:28 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 12:45:41 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote: >>>>>> On 2/19/2022 8:48 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 8:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 5:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

    If you don't understand it or you refuse to understand it then there >>>>>>>> is no point in visiting Ed's Country Hardware store either. I didn't >>>>>>>> even have to go there to know he won't have it, and if I ask he will >>>>>>>> treat me like dirt for asking. I'll just skip that place and head for >>>>>>>> town to get ALL of what I need.

    Just because the bank and I share ownership of an 800 million dollar >>>>>>>> combine it doesn't mean I have cash on hand to buy every spare part I >>>>>>>> should in your opinion, and dead simple items like a bolt should be >>>>>>>> available at any hardware store where the owner doesn't have his head >>>>>>>> up his....


    It is a consumable. If you don't have a shear pin, a commonly used >>>>>>> item
    for your machine you are not operating very smart and the bank would be >>>>>>> smart to foreclose. Don't blame your incompetence on my lack of $2 >>>>>>> shear pins.
    Ok, No problem. You have no respect and in fact express sentiments >>>>>> approaching hatred for anybody who makes a mistake and you wish upon >>>>>> them foreclosure bankruptcy and the destitution and starvation of their >>>>>> family, their employees and their employee's families. (This is the >>>>>> logical extension of what YOU said.) I sincerely appreciate you making >>>>>> yourself so clear. Nobody blames you for not having a part. I'm
    telling you the consequences. Its a choice you make.

    In the case of Harbor Freight they have less and less selection. Is it >>>>>> working for them? Maybe. I don't know. I know that in the past I
    would always check Harbor Freight for a single use tool or tools to be >>>>>> used in high loss environments. Now I usually don't. Their huge
    reduction in selection doesn't just mean I don't buy the tool they don't >>>>>> have, but I often don't even check for the tool they do have. Its not >>>>>> just because they didn't have just one part as illustrated in my
    example. Its because they didn't have one part or one tool many times. >>>>>> Is my business unimportant to them. Probably. It doesn't mean that >>>>>> the loss of sales they could have made from many different people who >>>>>> also quit checking does not have an impact.

    You do you Ed. I will do me, and that farmer you so despise and revile >>>>>> will take care of his business and his family whether that includes >>>>>> either of us or not. In your case probably not.

    I once asked my dad why he had a huge selection of grade 2 grade 5 and >>>>>> grade 8 bolts in bulk bins in his country hardware store that was next >>>>>> door to my mom's country grocery and general store. My example was his >>>>>> example. I understood it to mean if you don't have the things people >>>>>> expect you to have for the type of business you have they will give up >>>>>> on you.

    They will get what they need elsewhere, and while they are
    there they will buy everything else too. I didn't get bogged down in >>>>>> petty details like you did. It was an example. Like a parable it was >>>>>> to illustrate a point. So is that farmer who is a member of my
    community, donates to the local youth organizations, and supports your >>>>>> business deserving of your contempt because he didn't have a part you >>>>>> think he should have instead of bother you in your hardware store. >>>>>> Probably not.

    We had farmers come in for field bolts to be used as shear pins. They >>>>>> were back up and running in a short time. Were they stupid. We didn't >>>>>> think so. They made money, supported our businesses, paid taxes that >>>>>> supported our school, and donated to local youth organizations. We >>>>>> believed in supporting those who supported us even if it was just
    stocking some lower turn rate items. Some of those farmers were my >>>>>> first customers in my own business ventures.


    Seems like there was difference in your Dad's clientele vs. the store you >>>>> are talking about. Obviously he was selling the bolts (you said so) so it >>>>> made sense to stock them. Your guy says you are the only one that
    needed the bolt that he didn't have (you said so).

    Was your dad in the habit of stocking every one-off item that each
    individual farmer might come in for on a very rare occasion? Sounds
    to me like he stocked what was selling. Smart man.

    Sounds like you are bound and determined to say I am wrong no matter
    what. We didn't make any money having a huge selection of bolts. We
    made money by keeping the customer in the store.

    Here is a parallel. Home Depot comes into a medium size or small city
    for the first time with a very broad selection. They can't compete for
    personal service with the small local stores, but they can be price (if
    they want to) competetive due to their massive buying power. Because
    people can get everything they need in one store a lot of other stores
    go out of business or are forced to dramatically change. Then prices
    creep up and selection goes down. That seems smart for Home Depot, but
    customers start buying the things they need online because Home Depot >>> doesn't have everything any longer. Then the customers discover they
    can buy everything online and cheaper. Who is the biggest retailer in
    the world? Amazon. Coincidentally they have the broadest range of
    products of any retailer in the world as well. Is Home depot going out
    of business. Not any time soon, because we still go there if they do
    have what we need and we have to have it today. They still have a
    broader range of product than any other local retailer in their range of >>> products. We can still pay cash at Home Depot. They just don't have
    the range in each department that they did when they opened the store.
    Personally I think of Home Depot now as not much different from Harbor
    Freight. Unless I need it now and I know they have it in stock today I
    just don't go there, and if I don't need it today I can almost always
    have it delivered for the same or less. As a result they don't sell me >>> the stuff they don't have, and because there is a lot they no longer
    have they don't sell me a lot of the stuff they do have either because I >>> just don't check.

    Interesting, relevant, and very recent story. A couple of weeks ago I
    was looking for insulation retaining wires to hold the ceiling
    insulation in my basement. The builder, of course, cheaped out and
    used about half what he should have, so working up there anyway, I
    thought I'd add them where needed. The only ones HD sold were 12".
    The joists are 16" OC but manufactured so there isn't 14.5" between
    them but 15.5". Even 16" wires wouldn't work. The next size up is
    24".

    They were probably not big sellers at your store. Did you try HD on line?

    I went to their site (homedepot.com). It said they were "not
    orderable" for delivery to store or home.

    I could understand the brick stores only carrying 16" wires and not
    24", but _only_ 12"? How many homes have 12"OC rafters?

    Actually, I have a box of 12" wires but I have no idea why. I don't
    know why I've been carting them around the country, either. I must
    have moved them four times.

    I needed a 30# propane tank. My local Ace does not stock them but one
    12 miles away does.

    That's not surprising. ACE stores are franchised. The stores probably
    have different owners, even.

    I wanted tile for a backsplash in the kitchen. Went to three tile
    specialty stores and nothing appealed to me. Waled in Lowe's and found
    one I really liked inside of a minute. Will be installed tomorrow.

    We went the other way but we check out HD and Lowes for ideas.

    I'm going to tile the floors in at least three of the bathrooms and
    the laundry. The master is tiled but it's ugly, so would be the
    fourth.

    The "hardwood" floors are starting to buckle so we have to replace
    them, too. We browse HD when we're there. They never have exactly what
    we want but it gives us ideas. The stock rotates rather often so it's
    useful to check it out every few months.

    One store cannot be all things to all people but Amazon comes close. One >reason is what you found out, they are connected to other sellers like HD.

    Right. Amazon is no longer cheaper but they, or one of their
    affiliates, has "everything". I've often gone shopping at Amazon then
    ordered elsewhere. OTOH, some prices are controlled by the
    manufacturer and most Amazon stores offer free shipping.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 21 02:19:10 2022
    On 2/20/2022 10:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 9:48:58 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 21:09:48 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 3:45 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:


    Musings for thought:

    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held >>>> onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department >>>> over to an online presence instead of shutting it down. In 1993 when
    they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely >>>> starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.


    Sears screwed up and did not see the future. If they did, Amazon may
    still be just a book seller.
    Sears was a Titanic with no rudder. Seeing the future would have meant
    dismantling the present. That's exceedingly rare.

    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.

    "Change" is difficult. I guess especially if you're a huge organization,
    not as hard for a small shop. I was listening to someone speak about
    this earlier today (ex-CEO of the GAP) on "Wall Street Week", he said
    it's easier to be creative if you are small. And he definitely thought
    it was very important that people work together face-to-face, so that
    they can share their creativity and bounce ideas off of one another.
    Of course, his specialty was clothing in retail. Ironically, he didn't
    seem to know so much about the financial end of it, except he didn't
    agree with the notion of a retail outlet having "sales"--because then
    people will wait for them, compare prices to get them, etc.




    "Creative
    destruction" is the term.

    Then there is the problem that Amazon made no money for a decade
    (longer?). Sears' stockholders would never have allowed that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. Clarke@21:1/5 to Bill on Mon Feb 21 08:05:07 2022
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 02:19:10 -0500, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 10:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 9:48:58 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 21:09:48 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 3:45 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:


    Musings for thought:

    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held >>>>> onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department >>>>> over to an online presence instead of shutting it down. In 1993 when >>>>> they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely >>>>> starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.


    Sears screwed up and did not see the future. If they did, Amazon may
    still be just a book seller.
    Sears was a Titanic with no rudder. Seeing the future would have meant
    dismantling the present. That's exceedingly rare.

    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.

    "Change" is difficult. I guess especially if you're a huge organization,
    not as hard for a small shop. I was listening to someone speak about
    this earlier today (ex-CEO of the GAP) on "Wall Street Week", he said
    it's easier to be creative if you are small. And he definitely thought
    it was very important that people work together face-to-face, so that
    they can share their creativity and bounce ideas off of one another.
    Of course, his specialty was clothing in retail. Ironically, he didn't
    seem to know so much about the financial end of it, except he didn't
    agree with the notion of a retail outlet having "sales"--because then
    people will wait for them, compare prices to get them, etc.

    Kodak's problem wasn't lack of vision, it was that their business
    model was to sell a consumable and digital doesn't have consumables in
    the same sense as film cameras.

    Contrary to popular belief, Kodak went into digital early. They had a
    working prototype digital camera in 1975. The resolution of available
    sensors at the time was far too low to be commercially viable, the
    prediction was that it might be able to compete with 110 film by
    around 1995. And in 1996 Kodak started selling digital cameras.

    Further, until their patent expired in 2007 it was a money maker for
    them.

    But there just wasn't a way to transition their business to digital
    and maintain the same kind of sales volume.

    There wasn't anything they could do to keep their business from
    collapsing. The total digital camera market is estimated to be around
    $21 billion a year. Corrected for inflation Kodak's peak sales were
    over $28 billion. So even if they maintained 100% of the market they
    would have ended up a smaller company.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Pawlowski@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Mon Feb 21 09:43:22 2022
    On 2/20/2022 9:48 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:


    Sears was a Titanic with no rudder. Seeing the future would have meant dismantling the present. That's exceedingly rare. "Creative
    destruction" is the term.

    Then there is the problem that Amazon made no money for a decade
    (longer?). Sears' stockholders would never have allowed that.

    Forgot about that. I could not understand why people were still
    investing so much in a company with no profits. Guess I was the
    shortsighted one.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 21 10:13:47 2022
    On 2/20/2022 9:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 9:48:58 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 21:09:48 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 3:45 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:


    Musings for thought:

    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held >>>> onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department >>>> over to an online presence instead of shutting it down. In 1993 when
    they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely >>>> starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.


    Sears screwed up and did not see the future. If they did, Amazon may
    still be just a book seller.
    Sears was a Titanic with no rudder. Seeing the future would have meant
    dismantling the present. That's exceedingly rare.

    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.



    Still pretty strong. Prints of digital files are still pretty strong
    and there are plenty of stores offering this service.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to Ed Pawlowski on Mon Feb 21 10:16:26 2022
    On 2/21/2022 8:43 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 9:48 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:


    Sears was a Titanic with no rudder. Seeing the future would have meant
    dismantling the present.  That's exceedingly rare. "Creative
    destruction" is the term.

    Then there is the problem that Amazon made no money for a decade
    (longer?).  Sears' stockholders would never have allowed that.

    Forgot about that.  I could not understand why people were still
    investing so much in a company with no profits.  Guess I was the shortsighted one.


    FaceBook

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Grossbohlin@21:1/5 to Bill on Mon Feb 21 12:07:54 2022
    "Bill" wrote in message news:8B7PJ.2793$3Pje.1685@fx09.iad...

    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer service
    supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not take a credit
    card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two stores that we have
    contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than that?

    I have to say that this is one of the liveliest threads I've seen in my 30 years or so of reading, and sporadically participating, on this rec.... ;~)

    We've all had different but similar experiences with HF. My father bought a
    lot of stuff from them over the years and I used a lot of it when I helped
    him at his house. Some things were okay for one off purposes, some were okay over all, some were totally useless--best you could say is they looked like tools.

    Just one category, corded power tools, I went a different route and bought
    all Porter Cable: 587 Speedtronic circular saw, 314 trim saw, router, jig
    saw, reciprocating saw, 3/8" drill, drywall driver, heat gun, random orbit sander, 4" belt sander, palm sander... Some of that stuff is 30+ years old now. I replaced things like cords on a few of them and pads on the
    sanders... I built additions and houses, did multiple renovations, and a lot
    of woodworking projects with them. With care and on-going maintenance I'll probably have them until my demise (hopefully in another 20+ years). The
    only one I replaced was the random orbit sander and that was maybe a month ago... the pads were worn out again, the dust "bag" was worn out again, the dust port rotated around the handle on it's own... it was time to go! Those P-C tools were from a time when P-C stuff was really built to last. The new stuff... not so much from what I've seen.

    Hand tools... I broke my father's HF ratchet wrench handle and breaker bar working on his zero turn mower. The HF drywall driver could not be adjusted
    and hold the adjustment. The 1/2" drill's body broke due to the torque!
    Screw driver tips would wear out seemingly instantly. Clamps slipped no
    matter what you did. Pneumatic nailers... some worked okay and some jammed constantly. No thanks, I bring my own tools to my parents' house now when something needs to be done.

    HF opened a store on my travel path within the past few years. I did in buy
    a cheap cargo net to throw over firewood in the pickup truck. The way and amount I of firewood I stack in the truck made it pretty much impossible for any to fly out on the highway. However, the net looks good to anyone looking for a "secured load" in my state which demands loads be secured.

    My son is looking for a modestly priced rolling tool chest. I noticed one
    at HF that has much better customer feed back than ones from Sears and other big box stores and the price is very competitive. As someone else said
    early on in this thread... be selective when shopping at HF!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Mon Feb 21 10:35:21 2022
    On 2/20/2022 9:06 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 19:05:10 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 3:35 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 10:42:04 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 10:29 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:54:28 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 6:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 6:38 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer >>>>>>>>>>>>> service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will >>>>>>>>>>>>> not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of
    two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent. >>>>>>>>>>>>

    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man. >>>>>>>>>>>> The writing was on the wall.  Inventory selection has been at a >>>>>>>>>>>> constant decline ever since.  Clearly the son was applying turn >>>>>>>>>>>> rate and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore >>>>>>>>>>>> the fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the >>>>>>>>>>>> turn rate items elsewhere too.  I get less and less at Harbor >>>>>>>>>>>> Freight simply because they don't have the huge array of single >>>>>>>>>>>> use specialty tools they used to have.  At least now they have a >>>>>>>>>>>> website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally >>>>>>>>>>>> or not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening.  I went in >>>>>>>>>>>> to buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line.  Along with >>>>>>>>>>>> that trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories >>>>>>>>>>>> It had one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the >>>>>>>>>>>> shelf, so I grabbed a tag and all the accessories.  I made a point
    of handing the tag to the cashier first.  I didn't set any of my >>>>>>>>>>>> other stuff on the counter.  She took the tag and set it aside. >>>>>>>>>>>> Then she proceeded to take stuff out of my cart to ring it up.  I >>>>>>>>>>>> stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on that pump first." >>>>>>>>>>>>
    She replied that she didn't need to check.  She knew they didn't >>>>>>>>>>>> have any in stock.  I let here know I'd checked the website before
    coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have >>>>>>>>>>>> any, but I'll check."  Then she finally punched it in, and said, >>>>>>>>>>>> "Yeah only the display model."  She immediately started ringing up
    the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the >>>>>>>>>>>> pump it goes with?"  She just looked at me like I was an idiot.  I
    walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple >>>>>>>>>>>> days instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not.  Maybe its >>>>>>>>>>>> working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me.

    FYI:  There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon.  (20% >>>>>>>>>>>> for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most >>>>>>>>>>> all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards. >>>>>>>>>>

    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in >>>>>>>>>> the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the >>>>>>>>>> Harbor Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as >>>>>>>>>> thumbing through an Alden's Christmas toy catalog.  The Harbor >>>>>>>>>> Freight Catalog was almost as thick, and it was printed on almost >>>>>>>>>> bible thin paper. Now they couldn't fill a good newsletter. >>>>>>>>>>
    Just look at one item.  The used to sell 15-20 different metal >>>>>>>>>> lathes. Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2 >>>>>>>>>> metal lathes they sell are the same machine with different length beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell.  It didn't >>>>>>>>>> happen from covid either.  It clearly and definitely started when >>>>>>>>>> Old Man Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic >>>>>>>>>> general business principles.  In college even the business >>>>>>>>>> instructor who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down >>>>>>>>>> from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions.  Maybe >>>>>>>>>> Harbor Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more >>>>>>>>>> than 90% of their selection wasn't the right answer either. >>>>>>>>>>


    You stock what sells.  Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field >>>>>>>> bolt because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and >>>>>>>> you tell me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who buys >>>>>>>> them and its not worth it for us.  I'll say "ok," load my wife and >>>>>>>> kids back in the pickup truck and head into town.  While I'm in town >>>>>>>> I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of stopping >>>>>>>> next door at your grocery store for them.  Since I'm already in town I
    buy the new stove the old lady wanted, and purchase that new rifle I >>>>>>>> had been eyeballing in your gun rack. So because you were to stubborn >>>>>>>> to stock what I needed I bought a bunch of high turn rate items and a >>>>>>>> couple high margin items from somebody else.  Instead of having some >>>>>>>> stocking costs you lost a huge number of sales.

    Oh pleeeeease, that is not how the retail world works, those that remain >>>>>> in business. It is a daily occurrence that customers walk out of stores >>>>>> all over the world and empty handed every day. One does not remain in >>>>>> business by continuing to buy an item that no longer warrants space on >>>>>> the shelf or by stocking "everything" and not ever selling some of it. >>>>>>
    And referring back to all those lathes, 60 was it? I seriously doubt >>>>>> that those lathes were in his stock. Certainly he had access to a >>>>>> source that he could become a middle man with that variety. And of >>>>>> those 60 lathes they certainly would be shipped direct to the customer >>>>>> and not from a single source/manufacturer.

    Several woodworking stores sell and stock SawStop. You can buy a table >>>>>> saw right when you walk inside and pay and load it in your truck. BUT >>>>>> with a very popular model and is the original model, you cannot do this. >>>>>> You pay and the saw is shipped direct from one of Woodcraft's sources.
    This is why their catalog has more in it than you can go to the store
    and walk out with. That is ONE example of many.

    I was the local Woodcraft today. They had three models of SSs in
    stock. They didn't have any of the Laguna saws in stock but sold one >>>>> anyway. ;-) They also had all three models (16/32. 19/36, and 25/50) >>>>> of the Supermax drum sanders and a couple of Jets. I didn't know that >>>>> drum sanders were so popular.

    They were short of the mid/high end lathes because the lead time is so >>>>> long, at least three months, and they're selling like hotcakes. They >>>>> had four mobility kits for the Revo 18/36 ($700 for wheels) on the
    floor waiting for something to put them on.

    Of course they can't carry everything but they keep a lot more
    expensive inventory in the store than one would expect. OTOH, their
    Festool inventory is really shabby, particularly accessories.

    Some stores do stock a lot of inventory. But possibly, and this has
    happened to me in the past, items on back order show up all at once.
    You tend to be over stocked as a result. With supply chain difficulties >>>> you order as much as you can and hope for the best. This is not totally >>>> unlike a back order from the source.

    I recall way back when GM was having issues with catalytic converters. >>>> We were replacing 4~5 per day and we could not get enough. This seemed >>>> to go on for years. I finally got my back ordered converters in a
    single shipment of over 200 units. I typically ordered 10~15 every two >>>> weeks. To put that into perspective that increased the value of my
    inventory by 20%. This was 40 years ago and GM parts was in Houston
    also. I did not stock the obscure stuff, I let the other dealers bloat >>>> their inventories with these odd parts. I stocked items that moved and >>>> bought the odd stuff as needed and daily. GMPD was not in particular
    happy with me. They wanted me to keep a 120 day supply of parts. I saw >>>> no need for more than 60. So my inventory was probably half of what
    they thought I should have.

    The 120 day supply was to buffer their inability to supply parts. I had >>>> plenty of other sources than GMPD to get GM parts.


    So what may appear to be a well stocked show room floor could be back
    orders or product finally being delivered all at once.

    Could be but they've always had SSs in stock and,

    Unless something has changed, SS did not send the ICS models to
    Woodcraft except for a display model. When I bought and even relatively
    recently the ICS TS was shipped direct to the customer after placing the
    order with Woodcraft.



    at least in the fall
    of 2020 they had all of the SuperMax sanders and at least six or eight
    lathes in stock, including three Laguna models, a Powermatic, and a
    bunch of midis of various sorts. There are two Woodcrafts in town.
    Between the two, they stock a good slice of the stationary machinery
    market.

    I wish they'd get the back-ordered Festool accessories back in stock.
    I may be near Highland in a couple of weeks. They're usually good,
    though they're out of the Shaper 1/8" collet.

    Because of Festool's pricing structure if my local Woodcraft does not
    have the parts I order from Amazon for the same price with no shipping.
    For the past year the parts ordered through Amazon have been shipped
    direct from Hartville Hardware.

    I tried to order the collet from Amazon. The only seller (Shaper)
    wanted $10 shipping for a $50 part. They're as bad as Woodpeckers.
    I've gotten as far as the checkout page at Woodpeckers and just
    deleted everything because the shipping costs were absurd. I did the
    same with Shaper.


    Shaper ships for free with a minimum $75 order. Add a roll or two of
    double stick tape or a couple of bits.


    Highland does a good job stocking Festool. They had the edge sanding
    widget when it came out (though the store was closed for over a year). Woodcraft didn't know it existed. Still don't. Highland is out of the collets but their catalog says they'll be back in stock in a week or
    two. They said they try to keep five Origins and workstations in stock
    at all times. It's a well run family operation but obviously not as
    large as Hartsville.


    I bought the edge sanding attachment and the sander to work with it
    about a year ago, locally through a hard wood dealer. They are such a
    small Festool dealer that no one realized these hard to find accessories
    would be at this lumber yard.

    If anyone is buying stationary tools, WoodWerks didn't charge sales
    tax (and minimal shipping) on my jointer. I don't know how they got
    away with it but they did. They only collected Ohio and a couple of surrounding states' tax.

    It is up to the individual states to "enforce" their sales tax laws.
    This happened in Texas for many many years but lately most any retail
    sale is taxed and collected for sales in Texas these days.

    IIRC technically the business collects sales tax "FOR" the state that
    the goods will be delivered to. If sales tax was collected it would
    need to be submitted to those states.

    AND I live is a PIA location as far as sales tax is concerned. We have
    to determine which taxing authorities that I/we sell to and that may
    change if the customer picks up from us vs. us delivering. I think it
    has to do with where the customer was when paying for the item. If i
    deliver to a different taxing authority area I charge that particular tax.

    That said it has relatively gotten a bit easier as these authorities
    have expanded to where I live. In particular the metro transit authority.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to J. Clarke on Mon Feb 21 10:15:49 2022
    On 2/21/2022 7:05 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 02:19:10 -0500, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 10:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 9:48:58 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >>>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 21:09:48 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote: >>>>
    On 2/20/2022 3:45 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:


    Musings for thought:

    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held >>>>>> onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department >>>>>> over to an online presence instead of shutting it down. In 1993 when >>>>>> they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely >>>>>> starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.


    Sears screwed up and did not see the future. If they did, Amazon may >>>>> still be just a book seller.
    Sears was a Titanic with no rudder. Seeing the future would have meant >>>> dismantling the present. That's exceedingly rare.

    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.

    "Change" is difficult. I guess especially if you're a huge organization,
    not as hard for a small shop. I was listening to someone speak about
    this earlier today (ex-CEO of the GAP) on "Wall Street Week", he said
    it's easier to be creative if you are small. And he definitely thought
    it was very important that people work together face-to-face, so that
    they can share their creativity and bounce ideas off of one another.
    Of course, his specialty was clothing in retail. Ironically, he didn't
    seem to know so much about the financial end of it, except he didn't
    agree with the notion of a retail outlet having "sales"--because then
    people will wait for them, compare prices to get them, etc.

    Kodak's problem wasn't lack of vision, it was that their business
    model was to sell a consumable and digital doesn't have consumables in
    the same sense as film cameras.

    So yes digital still has consumables. People still want prints/hard
    copies of the pictures that they take.






    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Pawlowski@21:1/5 to Leon on Mon Feb 21 13:11:49 2022
    On 2/21/2022 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:


    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.



    Still pretty strong.  Prints of digital files are still pretty strong
    and there are plenty of stores offering this service.

    When digital first started I had no interest. Quality sucked. Can't
    compete with my Olympus OM-2. Then one day, they got better.

    No way would I go back to film now and my printer makes great copies too
    with the right paper.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to Ed Pawlowski on Mon Feb 21 12:43:48 2022
    On 2/21/2022 12:11 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/21/2022 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:


    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.



    Still pretty strong.  Prints of digital files are still pretty strong
    and there are plenty of stores offering this service.

    When digital first started I had no interest.  Quality sucked.  Can't compete with my Olympus OM-2.  Then one day, they got better.

    No way would I go back to film now and my printer makes great copies too
    with the right paper.


    I still prefer slow film over digital for quality. But that is too much trouble any more. I used to love working with ASA 25 and 64.

    I switched from Canon SLR's several years ago, I had a Canon TX, AE1,
    A1, 650, and a 630.

    I really liked the lenses before auto-focus.

    For what ever reason I went to a couple of Fuji upper end fixed lens
    digital and got great results for a digital camera.

    A few years back I decided to switch to a Nikon D500. With covid I have
    not had much od a chance of using it.
    BUT the auto-focus, lock on, and track a moving object, and a bunch of
    frames per second is pretty cool.

    I caught this one on a string of about 20 frames. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/51895514411/in/dateposted/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to Ed Pawlowski on Mon Feb 21 14:00:00 2022
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 09:43:22 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 9:48 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:


    Sears was a Titanic with no rudder. Seeing the future would have meant
    dismantling the present. That's exceedingly rare. "Creative
    destruction" is the term.

    Then there is the problem that Amazon made no money for a decade
    (longer?). Sears' stockholders would never have allowed that.

    Forgot about that. I could not understand why people were still
    investing so much in a company with no profits. Guess I was the
    shortsighted one.

    You and me both! They weren't the first or the last that passed by.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 21 14:03:35 2022
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 10:16:26 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 8:43 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 9:48 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:


    Sears was a Titanic with no rudder. Seeing the future would have meant
    dismantling the present. That's exceedingly rare. "Creative
    destruction" is the term.

    Then there is the problem that Amazon made no money for a decade
    (longer?). Sears' stockholders would never have allowed that.

    Forgot about that. I could not understand why people were still
    investing so much in a company with no profits. Guess I was the
    shortsighted one.


    FaceBook

    Google

    AOL ;-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 21 13:57:46 2022
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 10:15:49 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 7:05 AM, J. Clarke wrote:
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 02:19:10 -0500, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 10:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 9:48:58 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >>>>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 21:09:48 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote: >>>>>
    On 2/20/2022 3:45 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:


    Musings for thought:

    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held
    onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department >>>>>>> over to an online presence instead of shutting it down. In 1993 when >>>>>>> they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely >>>>>>> starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.


    Sears screwed up and did not see the future. If they did, Amazon may >>>>>> still be just a book seller.
    Sears was a Titanic with no rudder. Seeing the future would have meant >>>>> dismantling the present. That's exceedingly rare.

    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.

    "Change" is difficult. I guess especially if you're a huge organization, >>> not as hard for a small shop. I was listening to someone speak about
    this earlier today (ex-CEO of the GAP) on "Wall Street Week", he said
    it's easier to be creative if you are small. And he definitely thought
    it was very important that people work together face-to-face, so that
    they can share their creativity and bounce ideas off of one another.
    Of course, his specialty was clothing in retail. Ironically, he didn't
    seem to know so much about the financial end of it, except he didn't
    agree with the notion of a retail outlet having "sales"--because then
    people will wait for them, compare prices to get them, etc.

    Kodak's problem wasn't lack of vision, it was that their business
    model was to sell a consumable and digital doesn't have consumables in
    the same sense as film cameras.

    So yes digital still has consumables. People still want prints/hard
    copies of the pictures that they take.

    Far fewer and accepting much lower quality. Most just want snapshots
    of the grandchildren. Those are the _only_ photographs in our house.
    Most of them are gypped off Facebook.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.ne on Mon Feb 21 13:47:26 2022
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:07:54 -0500, "John Grossbohlin" <nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:

    "Bill" wrote in message news:8B7PJ.2793$3Pje.1685@fx09.iad...

    On 2/14/2022 1:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer service >>> supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will not take a credit >>> card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of two stores that we have
    contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Bottom of the barrel products,,, did you really expect better than that?

    I have to say that this is one of the liveliest threads I've seen in my 30 >years or so of reading, and sporadically participating, on this rec.... ;~)

    We've all had different but similar experiences with HF. My father bought a >lot of stuff from them over the years and I used a lot of it when I helped >him at his house. Some things were okay for one off purposes, some were okay >over all, some were totally useless--best you could say is they looked like >tools.

    I have a few HF corded tools that were OK. I have one of their $100
    10" SMCSs that's good enough for carpentry. I still have to put new
    planks on my deck and plan to use it to cut the boards. If it rains,
    so what. I also have a tile saw that is somewhere near a
    one-time-tool (not to be confused with Woodpeckers) and OK tool. I
    don't really need it to be much more. I certainly don't want to buy a professional tool and there isn't much between the two,

    Just one category, corded power tools, I went a different route and bought >all Porter Cable: 587 Speedtronic circular saw, 314 trim saw, router, jig >saw, reciprocating saw, 3/8" drill, drywall driver, heat gun, random orbit >sander, 4" belt sander, palm sander... Some of that stuff is 30+ years old >now. I replaced things like cords on a few of them and pads on the
    sanders... I built additions and houses, did multiple renovations, and a lot >of woodworking projects with them. With care and on-going maintenance I'll >probably have them until my demise (hopefully in another 20+ years). The
    only one I replaced was the random orbit sander and that was maybe a month >ago... the pads were worn out again, the dust "bag" was worn out again, the >dust port rotated around the handle on it's own... it was time to go! Those >P-C tools were from a time when P-C stuff was really built to last. The new >stuff... not so much from what I've seen.

    I did the same. After being totally disgusted with Craftsman power
    tools, I went PC. You're right. They were good, until they weren't.
    They started competing with Craftsman for the bottom. The PC plate
    jointer was (is?) considered the top of the heap. I used mine once
    and threw it back in the cabinet, where it remains. What junk.

    Hand tools... I broke my father's HF ratchet wrench handle and breaker bar >working on his zero turn mower. The HF drywall driver could not be adjusted >and hold the adjustment. The 1/2" drill's body broke due to the torque!
    Screw driver tips would wear out seemingly instantly. Clamps slipped no >matter what you did. Pneumatic nailers... some worked okay and some jammed >constantly. No thanks, I bring my own tools to my parents' house now when >something needs to be done.

    HF opened a store on my travel path within the past few years. I did in buy
    a cheap cargo net to throw over firewood in the pickup truck. The way and >amount I of firewood I stack in the truck made it pretty much impossible for >any to fly out on the highway. However, the net looks good to anyone looking >for a "secured load" in my state which demands loads be secured.

    My son is looking for a modestly priced rolling tool chest. I noticed one
    at HF that has much better customer feed back than ones from Sears and other >big box stores and the price is very competitive. As someone else said
    early on in this thread... be selective when shopping at HF!

    I bought a couple of the tool cart style (five drawer) for $179. It's certainly good and worth every penny of $179. The rest of my cabinets
    are from Sam's Club, the Classics Sevelle series. The drawers are
    chin cy but everything else is very nice. The workbenches, in
    particular are nice. Really heavy with a 1-1/2" maple top, They're
    excellent bargains at $240.

    <https://www.samsclub.com/p/height-adj-workbench-ultrahd/prod22651720?xid=plp_product_5>
    I have a bunch of the 6' rolling cabinets and some of the other
    cabinets in the series.







    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to jclarke.873638@gmail.com on Mon Feb 21 13:53:24 2022
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 08:05:07 -0500, J. Clarke
    <jclarke.873638@gmail.com> wrote:

    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 02:19:10 -0500, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 10:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 9:48:58 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >>>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 21:09:48 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote: >>>>
    On 2/20/2022 3:45 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:


    Musings for thought:

    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held >>>>>> onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department >>>>>> over to an online presence instead of shutting it down. In 1993 when >>>>>> they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely >>>>>> starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.


    Sears screwed up and did not see the future. If they did, Amazon may >>>>> still be just a book seller.
    Sears was a Titanic with no rudder. Seeing the future would have meant >>>> dismantling the present. That's exceedingly rare.

    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.

    "Change" is difficult. I guess especially if you're a huge organization, >>not as hard for a small shop. I was listening to someone speak about
    this earlier today (ex-CEO of the GAP) on "Wall Street Week", he said
    it's easier to be creative if you are small. And he definitely thought
    it was very important that people work together face-to-face, so that
    they can share their creativity and bounce ideas off of one another.
    Of course, his specialty was clothing in retail. Ironically, he didn't
    seem to know so much about the financial end of it, except he didn't
    agree with the notion of a retail outlet having "sales"--because then >>people will wait for them, compare prices to get them, etc.

    JC Penney's "new" (fiveish years back) thought the same thing and
    killed a zombie. Sales were the only reason people set foot in the
    dinosaur.

    "Sales" are how you move dead merchandise out of the way for new
    stuff. I guess TJ Max works too,

    Kodak's problem wasn't lack of vision, it was that their business
    model was to sell a consumable and digital doesn't have consumables in
    the same sense as film cameras.

    Contrary to popular belief, Kodak went into digital early. They had a >working prototype digital camera in 1975. The resolution of available >sensors at the time was far too low to be commercially viable, the
    prediction was that it might be able to compete with 110 film by
    around 1995. And in 1996 Kodak started selling digital cameras.

    Further, until their patent expired in 2007 it was a money maker for
    them.

    But there just wasn't a way to transition their business to digital
    and maintain the same kind of sales volume.

    There wasn't anything they could do to keep their business from
    collapsing. The total digital camera market is estimated to be around
    $21 billion a year. Corrected for inflation Kodak's peak sales were
    over $28 billion. So even if they maintained 100% of the market they
    would have ended up a smaller company.

    Kodak was more of a chemical company than a camera company. They
    didn't only make film and developer.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 21 15:03:52 2022
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 10:35:21 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 9:06 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 19:05:10 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 3:35 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 10:42:04 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 10:29 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:54:28 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 6:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 6:38 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of
    two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent. >>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The writing was on the wall. Inventory selection has been at a >>>>>>>>>>>>> constant decline ever since. Clearly the son was applying turn >>>>>>>>>>>>> rate and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore
    the fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the
    turn rate items elsewhere too. I get less and less at Harbor >>>>>>>>>>>>> Freight simply because they don't have the huge array of single >>>>>>>>>>>>> use specialty tools they used to have. At least now they have a >>>>>>>>>>>>> website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally >>>>>>>>>>>>> or not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening. I went in >>>>>>>>>>>>> to buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line. Along with >>>>>>>>>>>>> that trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories >>>>>>>>>>>>> It had one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the >>>>>>>>>>>>> shelf, so I grabbed a tag and all the accessories. I made a point
    of handing the tag to the cashier first. I didn't set any of my >>>>>>>>>>>>> other stuff on the counter. She took the tag and set it aside. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Then she proceeded to take stuff out of my cart to ring it up. I >>>>>>>>>>>>> stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on that pump first." >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    She replied that she didn't need to check. She knew they didn't >>>>>>>>>>>>> have any in stock. I let here know I'd checked the website before
    coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have >>>>>>>>>>>>> any, but I'll check." Then she finally punched it in, and said, >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Yeah only the display model." She immediately started ringing up
    the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the >>>>>>>>>>>>> pump it goes with?" She just looked at me like I was an idiot. I
    walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple >>>>>>>>>>>>> days instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not. Maybe its >>>>>>>>>>>>> working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    FYI: There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon. (20% >>>>>>>>>>>>> for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most >>>>>>>>>>>> all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards. >>>>>>>>>>>

    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in >>>>>>>>>>> the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the >>>>>>>>>>> Harbor Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as >>>>>>>>>>> thumbing through an Alden's Christmas toy catalog. The Harbor >>>>>>>>>>> Freight Catalog was almost as thick, and it was printed on almost >>>>>>>>>>> bible thin paper. Now they couldn't fill a good newsletter. >>>>>>>>>>>
    Just look at one item. The used to sell 15-20 different metal >>>>>>>>>>> lathes. Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2 >>>>>>>>>>> metal lathes they sell are the same machine with different length beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell. It didn't >>>>>>>>>>> happen from covid either. It clearly and definitely started when >>>>>>>>>>> Old Man Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic >>>>>>>>>>> general business principles. In college even the business >>>>>>>>>>> instructor who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down >>>>>>>>>>> from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions. Maybe >>>>>>>>>>> Harbor Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more >>>>>>>>>>> than 90% of their selection wasn't the right answer either. >>>>>>>>>>>


    You stock what sells. Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field >>>>>>>>> bolt because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and >>>>>>>>> you tell me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who buys
    them and its not worth it for us. I'll say "ok," load my wife and >>>>>>>>> kids back in the pickup truck and head into town. While I'm in town >>>>>>>>> I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of stopping >>>>>>>>> next door at your grocery store for them. Since I'm already in town I
    buy the new stove the old lady wanted, and purchase that new rifle I >>>>>>>>> had been eyeballing in your gun rack. So because you were to stubborn >>>>>>>>> to stock what I needed I bought a bunch of high turn rate items and a >>>>>>>>> couple high margin items from somebody else. Instead of having some >>>>>>>>> stocking costs you lost a huge number of sales.

    Oh pleeeeease, that is not how the retail world works, those that remain
    in business. It is a daily occurrence that customers walk out of stores
    all over the world and empty handed every day. One does not remain in >>>>>>> business by continuing to buy an item that no longer warrants space on >>>>>>> the shelf or by stocking "everything" and not ever selling some of it. >>>>>>>
    And referring back to all those lathes, 60 was it? I seriously doubt >>>>>>> that those lathes were in his stock. Certainly he had access to a >>>>>>> source that he could become a middle man with that variety. And of >>>>>>> those 60 lathes they certainly would be shipped direct to the customer >>>>>>> and not from a single source/manufacturer.

    Several woodworking stores sell and stock SawStop. You can buy a table >>>>>>> saw right when you walk inside and pay and load it in your truck. BUT >>>>>>> with a very popular model and is the original model, you cannot do this.
    You pay and the saw is shipped direct from one of Woodcraft's sources.
    This is why their catalog has more in it than you can go to the store
    and walk out with. That is ONE example of many.

    I was the local Woodcraft today. They had three models of SSs in
    stock. They didn't have any of the Laguna saws in stock but sold one >>>>>> anyway. ;-) They also had all three models (16/32. 19/36, and 25/50) >>>>>> of the Supermax drum sanders and a couple of Jets. I didn't know that >>>>>> drum sanders were so popular.

    They were short of the mid/high end lathes because the lead time is so >>>>>> long, at least three months, and they're selling like hotcakes. They >>>>>> had four mobility kits for the Revo 18/36 ($700 for wheels) on the >>>>>> floor waiting for something to put them on.

    Of course they can't carry everything but they keep a lot more
    expensive inventory in the store than one would expect. OTOH, their >>>>>> Festool inventory is really shabby, particularly accessories.

    Some stores do stock a lot of inventory. But possibly, and this has >>>>> happened to me in the past, items on back order show up all at once. >>>>> You tend to be over stocked as a result. With supply chain difficulties >>>>> you order as much as you can and hope for the best. This is not totally >>>>> unlike a back order from the source.

    I recall way back when GM was having issues with catalytic converters. >>>>> We were replacing 4~5 per day and we could not get enough. This seemed >>>>> to go on for years. I finally got my back ordered converters in a
    single shipment of over 200 units. I typically ordered 10~15 every two >>>>> weeks. To put that into perspective that increased the value of my
    inventory by 20%. This was 40 years ago and GM parts was in Houston >>>>> also. I did not stock the obscure stuff, I let the other dealers bloat >>>>> their inventories with these odd parts. I stocked items that moved and >>>>> bought the odd stuff as needed and daily. GMPD was not in particular >>>>> happy with me. They wanted me to keep a 120 day supply of parts. I saw >>>>> no need for more than 60. So my inventory was probably half of what >>>>> they thought I should have.

    The 120 day supply was to buffer their inability to supply parts. I had >>>>> plenty of other sources than GMPD to get GM parts.


    So what may appear to be a well stocked show room floor could be back >>>>> orders or product finally being delivered all at once.

    Could be but they've always had SSs in stock and,

    Unless something has changed, SS did not send the ICS models to
    Woodcraft except for a display model. When I bought and even relatively >>> recently the ICS TS was shipped direct to the customer after placing the >>> order with Woodcraft.



    at least in the fall
    of 2020 they had all of the SuperMax sanders and at least six or eight >>>> lathes in stock, including three Laguna models, a Powermatic, and a
    bunch of midis of various sorts. There are two Woodcrafts in town.
    Between the two, they stock a good slice of the stationary machinery
    market.

    I wish they'd get the back-ordered Festool accessories back in stock.
    I may be near Highland in a couple of weeks. They're usually good,
    though they're out of the Shaper 1/8" collet.

    Because of Festool's pricing structure if my local Woodcraft does not
    have the parts I order from Amazon for the same price with no shipping.
    For the past year the parts ordered through Amazon have been shipped
    direct from Hartville Hardware.

    I tried to order the collet from Amazon. The only seller (Shaper)
    wanted $10 shipping for a $50 part. They're as bad as Woodpeckers.
    I've gotten as far as the checkout page at Woodpeckers and just
    deleted everything because the shipping costs were absurd. I did the
    same with Shaper.


    Shaper ships for free with a minimum $75 order. Add a roll or two of
    double stick tape or a couple of bits.

    Didn't know that. It sounds like a plan. I'm sure the Shaper Tape
    will get used.

    Highland does a good job stocking Festool. They had the edge sanding
    widget when it came out (though the store was closed for over a year).
    Woodcraft didn't know it existed. Still don't. Highland is out of the
    collets but their catalog says they'll be back in stock in a week or
    two. They said they try to keep five Origins and workstations in stock
    at all times. It's a well run family operation but obviously not as
    large as Hartsville.


    I bought the edge sanding attachment and the sander to work with it
    about a year ago, locally through a hard wood dealer. They are such a
    small Festool dealer that no one realized these hard to find accessories >would be at this lumber yard.

    If anyone is buying stationary tools, WoodWerks didn't charge sales
    tax (and minimal shipping) on my jointer. I don't know how they got
    away with it but they did. They only collected Ohio and a couple of
    surrounding states' tax.

    It is up to the individual states to "enforce" their sales tax laws.
    This happened in Texas for many many years but lately most any retail
    sale is taxed and collected for sales in Texas these days.

    But the feds have given them the power to enforce their laws, complete
    with penalties. Add to that, that *I* actually owe the tax. I'll pay
    it on my state income tax form as a "use tax". <wink> <wink>

    IIRC technically the business collects sales tax "FOR" the state that
    the goods will be delivered to. If sales tax was collected it would
    need to be submitted to those states.

    AND I live is a PIA location as far as sales tax is concerned. We have
    to determine which taxing authorities that I/we sell to and that may
    change if the customer picks up from us vs. us delivering. I think it
    has to do with where the customer was when paying for the item. If i
    deliver to a different taxing authority area I charge that particular tax.

    Same here. The tax is owed to the retailer's location if it's a brick
    and mortar store or by the buyer's residence otherwise. Every tax
    jurisdiction has its own rate, whether it be a county, city, school
    district, whatever, and they all add. The tax rate charged is
    determined by street address.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Markem618@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 21 14:24:18 2022
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:43:48 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 12:11 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/21/2022 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:


    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.



    Still pretty strong. Prints of digital files are still pretty strong
    and there are plenty of stores offering this service.

    When digital first started I had no interest. Quality sucked. Can't
    compete with my Olympus OM-2. Then one day, they got better.

    No way would I go back to film now and my printer makes great copies too
    with the right paper.


    I still prefer slow film over digital for quality. But that is too much >trouble any more. I used to love working with ASA 25 and 64.

    I switched from Canon SLR's several years ago, I had a Canon TX, AE1,
    A1, 650, and a 630.

    I really liked the lenses before auto-focus.

    For what ever reason I went to a couple of Fuji upper end fixed lens
    digital and got great results for a digital camera.

    A few years back I decided to switch to a Nikon D500. With covid I have
    not had much od a chance of using it.
    BUT the auto-focus, lock on, and track a moving object, and a bunch of
    frames per second is pretty cool.

    I caught this one on a string of about 20 frames. >https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/51895514411/in/dateposted/

    That looks like, yeah throw the ball, throw the ball please, throw the
    ball.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 21 14:57:41 2022
    On 2/21/2022 2:24 PM, Markem618 wrote:
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:43:48 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 12:11 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/21/2022 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:


    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.



    Still pretty strong.  Prints of digital files are still pretty strong >>>> and there are plenty of stores offering this service.

    When digital first started I had no interest.  Quality sucked.  Can't
    compete with my Olympus OM-2.  Then one day, they got better.

    No way would I go back to film now and my printer makes great copies too >>> with the right paper.


    I still prefer slow film over digital for quality. But that is too much
    trouble any more. I used to love working with ASA 25 and 64.

    I switched from Canon SLR's several years ago, I had a Canon TX, AE1,
    A1, 650, and a 630.

    I really liked the lenses before auto-focus.

    For what ever reason I went to a couple of Fuji upper end fixed lens
    digital and got great results for a digital camera.

    A few years back I decided to switch to a Nikon D500. With covid I have
    not had much od a chance of using it.
    BUT the auto-focus, lock on, and track a moving object, and a bunch of
    frames per second is pretty cool.

    I caught this one on a string of about 20 frames.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/51895514411/in/dateposted/

    That looks like, yeah throw the ball, throw the ball please, throw the
    ball.


    Pretty much. LOL. A little closer to catch me if you can as I race
    past you.

    One of my son and DIL's dogs.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Mon Feb 21 15:02:32 2022
    On 2/21/2022 2:03 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 10:35:21 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 9:06 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 19:05:10 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 3:35 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 10:42:04 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 10:29 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:54:28 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> >>>>>>> wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 6:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 6:38 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will
    not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of
    two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man.
    The writing was on the wall.  Inventory selection has been at a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> constant decline ever since.  Clearly the son was applying turn >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rate and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore
    the fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the
    turn rate items elsewhere too.  I get less and less at Harbor >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Freight simply because they don't have the huge array of single >>>>>>>>>>>>>> use specialty tools they used to have.  At least now they have a
    website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening.  I went in
    to buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line.  Along with
    that trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories
    It had one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> shelf, so I grabbed a tag and all the accessories.  I made a point
    of handing the tag to the cashier first.  I didn't set any of my
    other stuff on the counter.  She took the tag and set it aside. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then she proceeded to take stuff out of my cart to ring it up.  I
    stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on that pump first." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    She replied that she didn't need to check.  She knew they didn't
    have any in stock.  I let here know I'd checked the website before
    coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have
    any, but I'll check."  Then she finally punched it in, and said,
    "Yeah only the display model."  She immediately started ringing up
    the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> pump it goes with?"  She just looked at me like I was an idiot.  I
    walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple >>>>>>>>>>>>>> days instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not.  Maybe its >>>>>>>>>>>>>> working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    FYI:  There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon.  (20%
    for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most >>>>>>>>>>>>> all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards. >>>>>>>>>>>>

    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in
    the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the >>>>>>>>>>>> Harbor Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as >>>>>>>>>>>> thumbing through an Alden's Christmas toy catalog.  The Harbor >>>>>>>>>>>> Freight Catalog was almost as thick, and it was printed on almost >>>>>>>>>>>> bible thin paper. Now they couldn't fill a good newsletter. >>>>>>>>>>>>
    Just look at one item.  The used to sell 15-20 different metal >>>>>>>>>>>> lathes. Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2 >>>>>>>>>>>> metal lathes they sell are the same machine with different length beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell.  It didn't >>>>>>>>>>>> happen from covid either.  It clearly and definitely started when >>>>>>>>>>>> Old Man Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic
    general business principles.  In college even the business >>>>>>>>>>>> instructor who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down >>>>>>>>>>>> from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions.  Maybe
    Harbor Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more >>>>>>>>>>>> than 90% of their selection wasn't the right answer either. >>>>>>>>>>>>


    You stock what sells.  Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field >>>>>>>>>> bolt because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and >>>>>>>>>> you tell me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who buys
    them and its not worth it for us.  I'll say "ok," load my wife and >>>>>>>>>> kids back in the pickup truck and head into town.  While I'm in town
    I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of stopping >>>>>>>>>> next door at your grocery store for them.  Since I'm already in town I
    buy the new stove the old lady wanted, and purchase that new rifle I >>>>>>>>>> had been eyeballing in your gun rack. So because you were to stubborn
    to stock what I needed I bought a bunch of high turn rate items and a
    couple high margin items from somebody else.  Instead of having some
    stocking costs you lost a huge number of sales.

    Oh pleeeeease, that is not how the retail world works, those that remain
    in business. It is a daily occurrence that customers walk out of stores
    all over the world and empty handed every day. One does not remain in >>>>>>>> business by continuing to buy an item that no longer warrants space on
    the shelf or by stocking "everything" and not ever selling some of it. >>>>>>>>
    And referring back to all those lathes, 60 was it? I seriously doubt >>>>>>>> that those lathes were in his stock. Certainly he had access to a >>>>>>>> source that he could become a middle man with that variety. And of >>>>>>>> those 60 lathes they certainly would be shipped direct to the customer >>>>>>>> and not from a single source/manufacturer.

    Several woodworking stores sell and stock SawStop. You can buy a table
    saw right when you walk inside and pay and load it in your truck. BUT >>>>>>>> with a very popular model and is the original model, you cannot do this.
    You pay and the saw is shipped direct from one of Woodcraft's sources.
    This is why their catalog has more in it than you can go to the store
    and walk out with. That is ONE example of many.

    I was the local Woodcraft today. They had three models of SSs in >>>>>>> stock. They didn't have any of the Laguna saws in stock but sold one >>>>>>> anyway. ;-) They also had all three models (16/32. 19/36, and 25/50) >>>>>>> of the Supermax drum sanders and a couple of Jets. I didn't know that >>>>>>> drum sanders were so popular.

    They were short of the mid/high end lathes because the lead time is so >>>>>>> long, at least three months, and they're selling like hotcakes. They >>>>>>> had four mobility kits for the Revo 18/36 ($700 for wheels) on the >>>>>>> floor waiting for something to put them on.

    Of course they can't carry everything but they keep a lot more
    expensive inventory in the store than one would expect. OTOH, their >>>>>>> Festool inventory is really shabby, particularly accessories.

    Some stores do stock a lot of inventory. But possibly, and this has >>>>>> happened to me in the past, items on back order show up all at once. >>>>>> You tend to be over stocked as a result. With supply chain difficulties >>>>>> you order as much as you can and hope for the best. This is not totally >>>>>> unlike a back order from the source.

    I recall way back when GM was having issues with catalytic converters. >>>>>> We were replacing 4~5 per day and we could not get enough. This seemed >>>>>> to go on for years. I finally got my back ordered converters in a >>>>>> single shipment of over 200 units. I typically ordered 10~15 every two >>>>>> weeks. To put that into perspective that increased the value of my >>>>>> inventory by 20%. This was 40 years ago and GM parts was in Houston >>>>>> also. I did not stock the obscure stuff, I let the other dealers bloat >>>>>> their inventories with these odd parts. I stocked items that moved and >>>>>> bought the odd stuff as needed and daily. GMPD was not in particular >>>>>> happy with me. They wanted me to keep a 120 day supply of parts. I saw >>>>>> no need for more than 60. So my inventory was probably half of what >>>>>> they thought I should have.

    The 120 day supply was to buffer their inability to supply parts. I had >>>>>> plenty of other sources than GMPD to get GM parts.


    So what may appear to be a well stocked show room floor could be back >>>>>> orders or product finally being delivered all at once.

    Could be but they've always had SSs in stock and,

    Unless something has changed, SS did not send the ICS models to
    Woodcraft except for a display model. When I bought and even relatively >>>> recently the ICS TS was shipped direct to the customer after placing the >>>> order with Woodcraft.



    at least in the fall
    of 2020 they had all of the SuperMax sanders and at least six or eight >>>>> lathes in stock, including three Laguna models, a Powermatic, and a
    bunch of midis of various sorts. There are two Woodcrafts in town.
    Between the two, they stock a good slice of the stationary machinery >>>>> market.

    I wish they'd get the back-ordered Festool accessories back in stock. >>>>> I may be near Highland in a couple of weeks. They're usually good,
    though they're out of the Shaper 1/8" collet.

    Because of Festool's pricing structure if my local Woodcraft does not
    have the parts I order from Amazon for the same price with no shipping. >>>> For the past year the parts ordered through Amazon have been shipped >>>> direct from Hartville Hardware.

    I tried to order the collet from Amazon. The only seller (Shaper)
    wanted $10 shipping for a $50 part. They're as bad as Woodpeckers.
    I've gotten as far as the checkout page at Woodpeckers and just
    deleted everything because the shipping costs were absurd. I did the
    same with Shaper.


    Shaper ships for free with a minimum $75 order. Add a roll or two of
    double stick tape or a couple of bits.

    Didn't know that. It sounds like a plan. I'm sure the Shaper Tape
    will get used.

    Highland does a good job stocking Festool. They had the edge sanding
    widget when it came out (though the store was closed for over a year).
    Woodcraft didn't know it existed. Still don't. Highland is out of the
    collets but their catalog says they'll be back in stock in a week or
    two. They said they try to keep five Origins and workstations in stock
    at all times. It's a well run family operation but obviously not as
    large as Hartsville.


    I bought the edge sanding attachment and the sander to work with it
    about a year ago, locally through a hard wood dealer. They are such a
    small Festool dealer that no one realized these hard to find accessories
    would be at this lumber yard.

    If anyone is buying stationary tools, WoodWerks didn't charge sales
    tax (and minimal shipping) on my jointer. I don't know how they got
    away with it but they did. They only collected Ohio and a couple of
    surrounding states' tax.

    It is up to the individual states to "enforce" their sales tax laws.
    This happened in Texas for many many years but lately most any retail
    sale is taxed and collected for sales in Texas these days.

    But the feds have given them the power to enforce their laws, complete
    with penalties. Add to that, that *I* actually owe the tax. I'll pay
    it on my state income tax form as a "use tax". <wink> <wink>

    Yes, the individual is suppose to pay the sales tax on untaxed goods.
    Something that we absolutely do. My wife was an enforcement officer for
    the state. She gets a pension from that career and we are not willing
    to save a few tax dollars to forfeit the pension.




    IIRC technically the business collects sales tax "FOR" the state that
    the goods will be delivered to. If sales tax was collected it would
    need to be submitted to those states.

    AND I live is a PIA location as far as sales tax is concerned. We have
    to determine which taxing authorities that I/we sell to and that may
    change if the customer picks up from us vs. us delivering. I think it
    has to do with where the customer was when paying for the item. If i
    deliver to a different taxing authority area I charge that particular tax.

    Same here. The tax is owed to the retailer's location if it's a brick
    and mortar store or by the buyer's residence otherwise. Every tax jurisdiction has its own rate, whether it be a county, city, school
    district, whatever, and they all add. The tax rate charged is
    determined by street address.

    Exactly!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 21 18:30:38 2022
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 15:02:32 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 2:03 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 10:35:21 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 9:06 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 19:05:10 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 3:35 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 10:42:04 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 10:29 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:54:28 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> >>>>>>>> wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 6:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 6:38 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote:
    Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible. They don't want to ship. They will
    not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up. The staff of
    two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man.
    The writing was on the wall. Inventory selection has been at a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> constant decline ever since. Clearly the son was applying turn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rate and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore
    the fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the
    turn rate items elsewhere too. I get less and less at Harbor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Freight simply because they don't have the huge array of single >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use specialty tools they used to have. At least now they have a
    website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally
    or not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening. I went in
    to buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line. Along with
    that trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories
    It had one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shelf, so I grabbed a tag and all the accessories. I made a point
    of handing the tag to the cashier first. I didn't set any of my
    other stuff on the counter. She took the tag and set it aside. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then she proceeded to take stuff out of my cart to ring it up. I
    stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on that pump first." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    She replied that she didn't need to check. She knew they didn't
    have any in stock. I let here know I'd checked the website before
    coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have
    any, but I'll check." Then she finally punched it in, and said,
    "Yeah only the display model." She immediately started ringing up
    the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> pump it goes with?" She just looked at me like I was an idiot. I
    walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> days instead of a few hours, but I got it done.

    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not. Maybe its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    FYI: There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon. (20%
    for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most >>>>>>>>>>>>>> all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards. >>>>>>>>>>>>>

    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in
    the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Harbor Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as >>>>>>>>>>>>> thumbing through an Alden's Christmas toy catalog. The Harbor >>>>>>>>>>>>> Freight Catalog was almost as thick, and it was printed on almost >>>>>>>>>>>>> bible thin paper. Now they couldn't fill a good newsletter. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Just look at one item. The used to sell 15-20 different metal >>>>>>>>>>>>> lathes. Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2
    metal lathes they sell are the same machine with different length beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell. It didn't >>>>>>>>>>>>> happen from covid either. It clearly and definitely started when >>>>>>>>>>>>> Old Man Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic
    general business principles. In college even the business >>>>>>>>>>>>> instructor who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down >>>>>>>>>>>>> from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions. Maybe
    Harbor Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more >>>>>>>>>>>>> than 90% of their selection wasn't the right answer either. >>>>>>>>>>>>>


    You stock what sells. Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field >>>>>>>>>>> bolt because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and >>>>>>>>>>> you tell me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who buys
    them and its not worth it for us. I'll say "ok," load my wife and >>>>>>>>>>> kids back in the pickup truck and head into town. While I'm in town
    I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of stopping
    next door at your grocery store for them. Since I'm already in town I
    buy the new stove the old lady wanted, and purchase that new rifle I
    had been eyeballing in your gun rack. So because you were to stubborn
    to stock what I needed I bought a bunch of high turn rate items and a
    couple high margin items from somebody else. Instead of having some
    stocking costs you lost a huge number of sales.

    Oh pleeeeease, that is not how the retail world works, those that remain
    in business. It is a daily occurrence that customers walk out of stores
    all over the world and empty handed every day. One does not remain in
    business by continuing to buy an item that no longer warrants space on
    the shelf or by stocking "everything" and not ever selling some of it.

    And referring back to all those lathes, 60 was it? I seriously doubt >>>>>>>>> that those lathes were in his stock. Certainly he had access to a >>>>>>>>> source that he could become a middle man with that variety. And of >>>>>>>>> those 60 lathes they certainly would be shipped direct to the customer
    and not from a single source/manufacturer.

    Several woodworking stores sell and stock SawStop. You can buy a table
    saw right when you walk inside and pay and load it in your truck. BUT
    with a very popular model and is the original model, you cannot do this.
    You pay and the saw is shipped direct from one of Woodcraft's sources.
    This is why their catalog has more in it than you can go to the store
    and walk out with. That is ONE example of many.

    I was the local Woodcraft today. They had three models of SSs in >>>>>>>> stock. They didn't have any of the Laguna saws in stock but sold one >>>>>>>> anyway. ;-) They also had all three models (16/32. 19/36, and 25/50) >>>>>>>> of the Supermax drum sanders and a couple of Jets. I didn't know that >>>>>>>> drum sanders were so popular.

    They were short of the mid/high end lathes because the lead time is so >>>>>>>> long, at least three months, and they're selling like hotcakes. They >>>>>>>> had four mobility kits for the Revo 18/36 ($700 for wheels) on the >>>>>>>> floor waiting for something to put them on.

    Of course they can't carry everything but they keep a lot more >>>>>>>> expensive inventory in the store than one would expect. OTOH, their >>>>>>>> Festool inventory is really shabby, particularly accessories.

    Some stores do stock a lot of inventory. But possibly, and this has >>>>>>> happened to me in the past, items on back order show up all at once. >>>>>>> You tend to be over stocked as a result. With supply chain difficulties
    you order as much as you can and hope for the best. This is not totally
    unlike a back order from the source.

    I recall way back when GM was having issues with catalytic converters. >>>>>>> We were replacing 4~5 per day and we could not get enough. This seemed >>>>>>> to go on for years. I finally got my back ordered converters in a >>>>>>> single shipment of over 200 units. I typically ordered 10~15 every two >>>>>>> weeks. To put that into perspective that increased the value of my >>>>>>> inventory by 20%. This was 40 years ago and GM parts was in Houston >>>>>>> also. I did not stock the obscure stuff, I let the other dealers bloat >>>>>>> their inventories with these odd parts. I stocked items that moved and >>>>>>> bought the odd stuff as needed and daily. GMPD was not in particular >>>>>>> happy with me. They wanted me to keep a 120 day supply of parts. I saw
    no need for more than 60. So my inventory was probably half of what >>>>>>> they thought I should have.

    The 120 day supply was to buffer their inability to supply parts. I had
    plenty of other sources than GMPD to get GM parts.


    So what may appear to be a well stocked show room floor could be back >>>>>>> orders or product finally being delivered all at once.

    Could be but they've always had SSs in stock and,

    Unless something has changed, SS did not send the ICS models to
    Woodcraft except for a display model. When I bought and even relatively >>>>> recently the ICS TS was shipped direct to the customer after placing the >>>>> order with Woodcraft.



    at least in the fall
    of 2020 they had all of the SuperMax sanders and at least six or eight >>>>>> lathes in stock, including three Laguna models, a Powermatic, and a >>>>>> bunch of midis of various sorts. There are two Woodcrafts in town. >>>>>> Between the two, they stock a good slice of the stationary machinery >>>>>> market.

    I wish they'd get the back-ordered Festool accessories back in stock. >>>>>> I may be near Highland in a couple of weeks. They're usually good, >>>>>> though they're out of the Shaper 1/8" collet.

    Because of Festool's pricing structure if my local Woodcraft does not >>>>> have the parts I order from Amazon for the same price with no shipping. >>>>> For the past year the parts ordered through Amazon have been shipped >>>>> direct from Hartville Hardware.

    I tried to order the collet from Amazon. The only seller (Shaper)
    wanted $10 shipping for a $50 part. They're as bad as Woodpeckers.
    I've gotten as far as the checkout page at Woodpeckers and just
    deleted everything because the shipping costs were absurd. I did the
    same with Shaper.


    Shaper ships for free with a minimum $75 order. Add a roll or two of
    double stick tape or a couple of bits.

    Didn't know that. It sounds like a plan. I'm sure the Shaper Tape
    will get used.

    Done.


    Highland does a good job stocking Festool. They had the edge sanding
    widget when it came out (though the store was closed for over a year). >>>> Woodcraft didn't know it existed. Still don't. Highland is out of the >>>> collets but their catalog says they'll be back in stock in a week or
    two. They said they try to keep five Origins and workstations in stock >>>> at all times. It's a well run family operation but obviously not as
    large as Hartsville.


    I bought the edge sanding attachment and the sander to work with it
    about a year ago, locally through a hard wood dealer. They are such a
    small Festool dealer that no one realized these hard to find accessories >>> would be at this lumber yard.

    If anyone is buying stationary tools, WoodWerks didn't charge sales
    tax (and minimal shipping) on my jointer. I don't know how they got
    away with it but they did. They only collected Ohio and a couple of
    surrounding states' tax.

    It is up to the individual states to "enforce" their sales tax laws.
    This happened in Texas for many many years but lately most any retail
    sale is taxed and collected for sales in Texas these days.

    But the feds have given them the power to enforce their laws, complete
    with penalties. Add to that, that *I* actually owe the tax. I'll pay
    it on my state income tax form as a "use tax". <wink> <wink>

    Yes, the individual is suppose to pay the sales tax on untaxed goods. >Something that we absolutely do. My wife was an enforcement officer for
    the state. She gets a pension from that career and we are not willing
    to save a few tax dollars to forfeit the pension.

    I didn't think you lived in California.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 21 18:26:58 2022
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:43:48 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 12:11 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/21/2022 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:


    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.



    Still pretty strong. Prints of digital files are still pretty strong
    and there are plenty of stores offering this service.

    When digital first started I had no interest. Quality sucked. Can't
    compete with my Olympus OM-2. Then one day, they got better.

    No way would I go back to film now and my printer makes great copies too
    with the right paper.


    I still prefer slow film over digital for quality. But that is too much >trouble any more. I used to love working with ASA 25 and 64.

    I liked B&W photography. It took a lot of skill to do really good
    work. Color is easy. Contrast and texture are hard. I liked to use
    the Ilford 25ASA B&W for artsy stuff but also used a lot of Tri-X
    pushed to 1600ASA and infrared film for low light.

    I switched from Canon SLR's several years ago, I had a Canon TX, AE1,
    A1, 650, and a 630.

    I had a chrome (cheaper) Canon FTb in college. I worked at the
    newspaper as a photographer. They had a decent selection of lenses
    that I could use.

    Fifteen years ago ebay had a bunch of *really* expensive Canon
    breech-lock lenses for sale for a penny or two on the dollar. I got
    some really fast telephotos and a couple of black FTbs but never
    really used them. Film and developing had already gotten to be a PITA.

    I really liked the lenses before auto-focus.

    The Canon micro-prism TTL focus and meter linked to the F-Stop were
    great. Friends preferred Nikon's split focus but it didn't work for
    me for some reason. Stop-down metering was a drag too.

    For what ever reason I went to a couple of Fuji upper end fixed lens
    digital and got great results for a digital camera.

    A few years back I decided to switch to a Nikon D500. With covid I have
    not had much od a chance of using it.
    BUT the auto-focus, lock on, and track a moving object, and a bunch of
    frames per second is pretty cool.

    I switched to Olympus but it was short lived. I carry my phone
    everywhere. A camera is a PITA to lug around. If I could marry the
    FD series lenses to a DSLR, it would change things. I'd be lugging
    20lbs of lenses around. ;-)

    I caught this one on a string of about 20 frames. >https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/51895514411/in/dateposted/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Leon on Mon Feb 21 15:40:42 2022
    On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 11:13:57 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 9:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 9:48:58 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 21:09:48 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 3:45 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:


    Musings for thought:

    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held >>>> onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department >>>> over to an online presence instead of shutting it down. In 1993 when >>>> they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely >>>> starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.


    Sears screwed up and did not see the future. If they did, Amazon may
    still be just a book seller.
    Sears was a Titanic with no rudder. Seeing the future would have meant
    dismantling the present. That's exceedingly rare.

    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.
    Still pretty strong. Prints of digital files are still pretty strong
    and there are plenty of stores offering this service.

    "Pretty strong" is a very relative term.

    Down from >65,000 employees in the 80's to ~4,500 today.

    Removed from the S&P in 2010, delisted by the NYSE and moved to OTC in 2012.

    Filed for bankruptcy and canceled health care benefits for 56,000 retirees in 2012.
    Or should I say "Filed for bankruptcy *in order to* cancel health care benefits for
    56,000 retirees in 2012"?

    Stock price >$94 in 1997, a penny stock by 2011. (EK, not KODK. Even KODK is <$5)

    From a perennial Fortune 500 company to a penny stock. Ouch!

    Today's Kodak (KODK) is not the Kodak (EK) of old. The old Kodak stuck with the idea that
    roll coating (film) would be a sustainable business for way too long. They basically invented
    digital photography and then put it on the shelf. By the time they gave up the film dream, the
    rest of the digital world had passed them by. They were losing money on every digital camera
    they sold. Between 1998 and 2000 they lost over $360M on the digital side of the business. So
    what was their next move? They lowered the price of their cameras in 2000 to try and garner
    more market share. Nice try...too late.

    They eventually sold a portfolio of digital patents allegedly worth $2.5B (with a B) for $525M. That
    wasn't a very strong play. Granted, the $2.5B value is very suspect because of all the licensing
    agreements that were attached. Besides, they were hurting so bad at that point that they didn't
    come to the table with a lot of negotiating power.

    What passes for "Kodak" today is a shadow of what the company once was.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Mon Feb 21 18:49:41 2022
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 15:40:42 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 11:13:57 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 9:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 9:48:58 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >> >> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 21:09:48 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote: >> >>
    On 2/20/2022 3:45 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:


    Musings for thought:

    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held
    onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department >> >>>> over to an online presence instead of shutting it down. In 1993 when
    they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely >> >>>> starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.


    Sears screwed up and did not see the future. If they did, Amazon may
    still be just a book seller.
    Sears was a Titanic with no rudder. Seeing the future would have meant
    dismantling the present. That's exceedingly rare.

    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.
    Still pretty strong. Prints of digital files are still pretty strong
    and there are plenty of stores offering this service.

    "Pretty strong" is a very relative term.

    Down from >65,000 employees in the 80's to ~4,500 today.

    Removed from the S&P in 2010, delisted by the NYSE and moved to OTC in 2012.

    Filed for bankruptcy and canceled health care benefits for 56,000 retirees in 2012.
    Or should I say "Filed for bankruptcy *in order to* cancel health care benefits for
    56,000 retirees in 2012"?

    Stock price >$94 in 1997, a penny stock by 2011. (EK, not KODK. Even KODK is <$5)

    From a perennial Fortune 500 company to a penny stock. Ouch!

    Today's Kodak (KODK) is not the Kodak (EK) of old. The old Kodak stuck with the idea that
    roll coating (film) would be a sustainable business for way too long. They basically invented
    digital photography and then put it on the shelf. By the time they gave up the film dream, the
    rest of the digital world had passed them by. They were losing money on every digital camera
    they sold. Between 1998 and 2000 they lost over $360M on the digital side of the business. So
    what was their next move? They lowered the price of their cameras in 2000 to try and garner
    more market share. Nice try...too late.

    They eventually sold a portfolio of digital patents allegedly worth $2.5B (with a B) for $525M. That
    wasn't a very strong play. Granted, the $2.5B value is very suspect because of all the licensing
    agreements that were attached. Besides, they were hurting so bad at that point that they didn't
    come to the table with a lot of negotiating power.

    What passes for "Kodak" today is a shadow of what the company once was.

    ...and you can just run down to Kinkos to get some prints made.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Markem618@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Mon Feb 21 18:42:34 2022
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 15:40:42 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 11:13:57 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 9:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 9:48:58 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >> >> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 21:09:48 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote: >> >>
    On 2/20/2022 3:45 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:


    Musings for thought:

    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held
    onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department >> >>>> over to an online presence instead of shutting it down. In 1993 when
    they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely >> >>>> starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.


    Sears screwed up and did not see the future. If they did, Amazon may
    still be just a book seller.
    Sears was a Titanic with no rudder. Seeing the future would have meant
    dismantling the present. That's exceedingly rare.

    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.
    Still pretty strong. Prints of digital files are still pretty strong
    and there are plenty of stores offering this service.

    "Pretty strong" is a very relative term.

    Down from >65,000 employees in the 80's to ~4,500 today.

    Removed from the S&P in 2010, delisted by the NYSE and moved to OTC in 2012.

    Filed for bankruptcy and canceled health care benefits for 56,000 retirees in 2012.
    Or should I say "Filed for bankruptcy *in order to* cancel health care benefits for
    56,000 retirees in 2012"?

    Stock price >$94 in 1997, a penny stock by 2011. (EK, not KODK. Even KODK is <$5)

    From a perennial Fortune 500 company to a penny stock. Ouch!

    Today's Kodak (KODK) is not the Kodak (EK) of old. The old Kodak stuck with the idea that
    roll coating (film) would be a sustainable business for way too long. They basically invented
    digital photography and then put it on the shelf. By the time they gave up the film dream, the
    rest of the digital world had passed them by. They were losing money on every digital camera
    they sold. Between 1998 and 2000 they lost over $360M on the digital side of the business. So
    what was their next move? They lowered the price of their cameras in 2000 to try and garner
    more market share. Nice try...too late.

    They eventually sold a portfolio of digital patents allegedly worth $2.5B (with a B) for $525M. That
    wasn't a very strong play. Granted, the $2.5B value is very suspect because of all the licensing
    agreements that were attached. Besides, they were hurting so bad at that point that they didn't
    come to the table with a lot of negotiating power.

    What passes for "Kodak" today is a shadow of what the company once was.

    Then there is the tale of Xerox, could have had Ethernet, GUI and a
    number other wonderful thing now exploited by others.

    Had uncles who were services reps for Xerox, they were not allowed to
    tell the end users that the quality of paper had a direct effect on
    the reliability the copiers. That was by Federal judges order.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Puckdropper@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Tue Feb 22 05:50:21 2022
    krw@notreal.com wrote in
    news:2ln71hpqj4aoo5fphu8ejtmlkemio05een@4ax.com:


    JC Penney's "new" (fiveish years back) thought the same thing and
    killed a zombie. Sales were the only reason people set foot in the
    dinosaur.

    "Sales" are how you move dead merchandise out of the way for new
    stuff. I guess TJ Max works too,

    My local model railroad shop took that concept to the extreme. He'd have a Father's Day Sale where pretty much the whole store was 40% off. That was
    his markup from the suppliers, so he was selling slow moving merchandise at cost to buy something that would sell.

    The only reason they closed up shop was the owner's health. We miss him.

    Puckdropper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Grossbohlin@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 22 00:52:51 2022
    wrote in message news:qhm71hh0fg59nj51r29mpaflmrhk9000j9@4ax.com...

    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:07:54 -0500, "John Grossbohlin" ><nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:

    My son is looking for a modestly priced rolling tool chest. I noticed one >>at HF that has much better customer feed back than ones from Sears and >>other
    big box stores and the price is very competitive. As someone else said >>early on in this thread... be selective when shopping at HF!

    I bought a couple of the tool cart style (five drawer) for $179. It's >certainly good and worth every penny of $179. The rest of my cabinets
    are from Sam's Club, the Classics Sevelle series. The drawers are
    chin cy but everything else is very nice. The workbenches, in
    particular are nice. Really heavy with a 1-1/2" maple top, They're >excellent bargains at $240.

    My son and I took a ride to HF last evening to look at the rolling tool cabinets as they had a holiday sale underway that ended yesterday. Since the store was about a half hour away on the highway I called them earlier in the day to check their holiday hours. I mentioned where I was coming from and
    what I was looking for. The guy that answered the phone couldn't have been
    more helpful. He not only checked the stock on the computer but he put his hands on them in the store room to make sure they were there.

    When we got to the store I was actually surprised by the rolling tool
    cabinets. The drawers worked smoothly, the case was solid, the overall fit
    and finish was quite good, the drawers all had non-slip liners, and with the sale the price was very competitive. We ended up driving out of there with
    two of them! One for my son and one for me... Would they hold up for
    decades under heavy use in a commercial automotive shop... probably not. In
    our shops they stand a good chance of lasting indefinitely and are light
    years ahead of the Craftsman rolling tool cabinets I looked at (that had terrible reviews on-line and clunky drawer slides). I think these will work
    out just fine.

    My son had never been in a HF so he walked around. After working in my shop
    and with my tools he could tell a lot of the stuff was not up to snuff. He stopped at the screwdriver display and examined them. There was a set of 12 that sells for $8. He knew I just replaced all my screw drivers and had examined them. Some of the old ones were 40+ year old Craftsman and other brands that had disappeared from the market. Most were good tools but the
    years of use caught up with them. My new Klein screwdrivers cost $7-$20 each... the HF screwdrivers averaged to about 70 each. My son could tell
    they weren't in the same league as the Klein. I was glad to see he paid attention to what I'd been telling him over the years. ;~)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to John Grossbohlin on Tue Feb 22 17:17:55 2022
    On 2/21/2022 11:52 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    wrote in message news:qhm71hh0fg59nj51r29mpaflmrhk9000j9@4ax.com...

    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:07:54 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
    <nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:

    My son is looking for a modestly priced rolling tool chest.  I
    noticed one
    at HF that has much better customer feed back than ones from Sears
    and other
    big box stores and the price is very competitive.  As someone else said >>> early on in this thread... be selective when shopping at HF!

    I bought a couple of the tool cart style (five drawer) for $179.  It's
    certainly good and worth every penny of $179. The rest of my cabinets
    are from Sam's Club, the Classics Sevelle series.  The drawers are
    chin cy but everything else is very nice.  The workbenches, in
    particular are nice.  Really heavy with a 1-1/2" maple top,  They're
    excellent bargains at $240.

    My son and I took a ride to HF last evening to look at the rolling tool cabinets as they had a holiday sale underway that ended yesterday. Since
    the store was about a half hour away on the highway I called them
    earlier in the day to check their holiday hours. I mentioned where I was coming from and what I was looking for. The guy that answered the phone couldn't have been more helpful. He not only checked the stock on the computer but he put his hands on them in the store room to make sure
    they were there.

    When we got to the store I was actually surprised by the rolling tool cabinets. The drawers worked smoothly, the case was solid, the overall
    fit and finish was quite good, the drawers all had non-slip liners, and
    with the sale the price was very competitive. We ended up driving out of there with two of them!  One for my son and one for me...  Would they
    hold up for decades under heavy use in a commercial automotive shop... probably not. In our shops they stand a good chance of lasting
    indefinitely and are light years ahead of the Craftsman rolling tool
    cabinets I looked at (that had terrible reviews on-line and clunky
    drawer slides). I think these will work out just fine.

    My son had never been in a HF so he walked around. After working in my
    shop and with my tools he could tell a lot of the stuff was not up to
    snuff. He stopped at the screwdriver display and examined them. There
    was a set of 12 that sells for $8. He knew I just replaced all my screw drivers and had examined them. Some of the old ones were 40+ year old Craftsman and other brands that had disappeared from the market. Most
    were good tools but the years of use caught up with them.  My new Klein screwdrivers cost $7-$20 each... the HF screwdrivers averaged to about
    70¢ each. My son could tell they weren't in the same league as the
    Klein.  I was glad to see he paid attention to what I'd been telling him over the years. ;~)



    The pro tool boxes only need to be strong when being loaded into the
    back of a truck and moved to a new employer. I have seen plenty of
    Craftsman tool boxes hold up for decades in a mechanical shop.

    I bought my wife one of the small roll around HF boxes for her quilting
    studio.

    That said I will say that the quality of the ICON/Ikon brand tool boxes
    seem to be very Impressive.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Tue Feb 22 17:35:47 2022
    On 2/21/2022 5:26 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:43:48 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 12:11 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/21/2022 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:


    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.



    Still pretty strong.  Prints of digital files are still pretty strong >>>> and there are plenty of stores offering this service.

    When digital first started I had no interest.  Quality sucked.  Can't
    compete with my Olympus OM-2.  Then one day, they got better.

    No way would I go back to film now and my printer makes great copies too >>> with the right paper.


    I still prefer slow film over digital for quality. But that is too much
    trouble any more. I used to love working with ASA 25 and 64.

    I liked B&W photography. It took a lot of skill to do really good
    work. Color is easy. Contrast and texture are hard. I liked to use
    the Ilford 25ASA B&W for artsy stuff but also used a lot of Tri-X
    pushed to 1600ASA and infrared film for low light.

    Yes the B&W photography was an art in itself. I did not have the
    patience for that.




    I switched from Canon SLR's several years ago, I had a Canon TX, AE1,
    A1, 650, and a 630.

    I had a chrome (cheaper) Canon FTb in college. I worked at the
    newspaper as a photographer. They had a decent selection of lenses
    that I could use.

    I remember the FTb, did it have a built in light meter? The TX had a
    build in light meter buy was strictly manual past that. Then with my
    all time favorite, the AE1 with the auto aperture exposure setting to
    match the shutter speed. And that one was all black on a brass? body.


    Fifteen years ago ebay had a bunch of *really* expensive Canon
    breech-lock lenses for sale for a penny or two on the dollar. I got
    some really fast telephotos and a couple of black FTbs but never
    really used them. Film and developing had already gotten to be a PITA.

    I dabbled in processing slide film. I only liked to use slide film
    until my wife decided that I needed to shoot negative film and get prints.

    I really liked the lenses before auto-focus.

    The Canon micro-prism TTL focus and meter linked to the F-Stop were
    great. Friends preferred Nikon's split focus but it didn't work for
    me for some reason. Stop-down metering was a drag too.

    Yes, my TX had the 2 circles a split bulls eye and the prism circle
    around that. You could not miss focusing with that. I have to say that
    I don't recall what the view finder focus looked like on the AE1 and A1.




    For what ever reason I went to a couple of Fuji upper end fixed lens
    digital and got great results for a digital camera.

    A few years back I decided to switch to a Nikon D500. With covid I have
    not had much od a chance of using it.
    BUT the auto-focus, lock on, and track a moving object, and a bunch of
    frames per second is pretty cool.

    I switched to Olympus but it was short lived. I carry my phone
    everywhere. A camera is a PITA to lug around. If I could marry the
    FD series lenses to a DSLR, it would change things. I'd be lugging
    20lbs of lenses around. ;-)

    LOL. Damn phones make every one look good with out knowing the
    mechanics. I don't miss the Domke back pack though.

    I have to be on a mission to carry the DSLR.



    I caught this one on a string of about 20 frames.
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb11211/51895514411/in/dateposted/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Leon@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 22 17:20:45 2022
    On 2/21/2022 5:40 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 11:13:57 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 9:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 9:48:58 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >>>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 21:09:48 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote: >>>>
    On 2/20/2022 3:45 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:


    Musings for thought:

    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held >>>>>> onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department >>>>>> over to an online presence instead of shutting it down. In 1993 when >>>>>> they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely >>>>>> starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.


    Sears screwed up and did not see the future. If they did, Amazon may >>>>> still be just a book seller.
    Sears was a Titanic with no rudder. Seeing the future would have meant >>>> dismantling the present. That's exceedingly rare.

    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.
    Still pretty strong. Prints of digital files are still pretty strong
    and there are plenty of stores offering this service.

    "Pretty strong" is a very relative term.

    Still pretty strong from a customers point of view that wants prints.



    Down from >65,000 employees in the 80's to ~4,500 today.

    Removed from the S&P in 2010, delisted by the NYSE and moved to OTC in 2012.

    Filed for bankruptcy and canceled health care benefits for 56,000 retirees in 2012.
    Or should I say "Filed for bankruptcy *in order to* cancel health care benefits for
    56,000 retirees in 2012"?

    Stock price >$94 in 1997, a penny stock by 2011. (EK, not KODK. Even KODK is <$5)

    From a perennial Fortune 500 company to a penny stock. Ouch!

    Today's Kodak (KODK) is not the Kodak (EK) of old. The old Kodak stuck with the idea that
    roll coating (film) would be a sustainable business for way too long. They basically invented
    digital photography and then put it on the shelf. By the time they gave up the film dream, the
    rest of the digital world had passed them by. They were losing money on every digital camera
    they sold. Between 1998 and 2000 they lost over $360M on the digital side of the business. So
    what was their next move? They lowered the price of their cameras in 2000 to try and garner
    more market share. Nice try...too late.

    They eventually sold a portfolio of digital patents allegedly worth $2.5B (with a B) for $525M. That
    wasn't a very strong play. Granted, the $2.5B value is very suspect because of all the licensing
    agreements that were attached. Besides, they were hurting so bad at that point that they didn't
    come to the table with a lot of negotiating power.

    What passes for "Kodak" today is a shadow of what the company once was.


    Well now that you looked all of that up, ...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Tue Feb 22 17:36:41 2022
    On 2/21/2022 5:30 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 15:02:32 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 2:03 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 10:35:21 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 9:06 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 19:05:10 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/20/2022 3:35 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 10:42:04 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> >>>>>>> wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 10:29 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 19 Feb 2022 20:54:28 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> >>>>>>>>> wrote:

    On 2/19/2022 6:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 6:38 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 2:13 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/19/2022 11:26 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 11:46 AM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/18/2022 12:34 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:
    On 2/14/2022 12:49 PM, Johnny Templeton wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Harbor Freight qualifies from my experience as the worst customer
    service supplier possible.  They don't want to ship.  They will
    not take a credit card to hold an item for pick up.  The staff of
    two stores that we have contacted are arrogant and independent.


    Harbor Freight started changing after they threw out the old man.
    The writing was on the wall.  Inventory selection has been at a
    constant decline ever since.  Clearly the son was applying turn
    rate and margin principles learned in business classes that ignore
    the fact that if you don't have what a customer wants they buy the
    turn rate items elsewhere too.  I get less and less at Harbor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Freight simply because they don't have the huge array of single
    use specialty tools they used to have.  At least now they have a
    website that usually tells me if what I want is in stock locally
    or not. Not always, but most of the time.

    My own recent bad experience was kind of eye opening.  I went in
    to buy a trash pump that I had checked stock on-line.  Along with
    that trash pump I planned to buy hoses, ad other misc accessories
    It had one of those take this tag to the cashier pouches on the
    shelf, so I grabbed a tag and all the accessories.  I made a point
    of handing the tag to the cashier first.  I didn't set any of my
    other stuff on the counter.  She took the tag and set it aside.
    Then she proceeded to take stuff out of my cart to ring it up.  I
    stopped her and said, "Lets get somebody on that pump first." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    She replied that she didn't need to check.  She knew they didn't
    have any in stock.  I let here know I'd checked the website before
    coming. She said, "I'm the store manager and I know we don't have
    any, but I'll check."  Then she finally punched it in, and said,
    "Yeah only the display model."  She immediately started ringing up
    the accessories and hoses again.

    I asked, "Why do I need any of that stuff if you don't have the
    pump it goes with?"  She just looked at me like I was an idiot.  I
    walked around the cart and walked out.

    I used an old sump pump to do the job instead. It took a couple
    days instead of a few hours, but I got it done. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Harbor Freight is trying to be something its not.  Maybe its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> working for them, but it doesn't usually work for me. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    FYI:  There is an upcoming 10% off any single item coupon.  (20%
    for In Track members).



    I believe, currently, that HF is suffering from the same as most
    all manufacturers.
    That being the need from an enema at the California ship yards. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    When Old Man Schmidt ran the company and I was a kid hanging out in
    the back of my dad's hardware store I use to thumb through the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Harbor Freight AND SALVAGE catalog with as much enjoyment as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> thumbing through an Alden's Christmas toy catalog.  The Harbor >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Freight Catalog was almost as thick, and it was printed on almost
    bible thin paper. Now they couldn't fill a good newsletter. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Just look at one item.  The used to sell 15-20 different metal >>>>>>>>>>>>>> lathes. Now they sell just 4 if you include wood lathes, and the 2
    metal lathes they sell are the same machine with different length beds.

    This applies to nearly everything they used to sell.  It didn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> happen from covid either.  It clearly and definitely started when
    Old Man Schmidt was removed from the building.

    In my opinion its a direct result of over application of some basic
    general business principles.  In college even the business >>>>>>>>>>>>>> instructor who tried teach these as etched in stone brought down >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the mountain grudgingly admitted there were exceptions.  Maybe
    Harbor Freight needed to clean up a little bit, but removing more
    than 90% of their selection wasn't the right answer either. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>


    You stock what sells.  Floor space is valuable.


    And if I walk into your country hardware store for a grade 2 field >>>>>>>>>>>> bolt because a shear pin broke on my 800 million dollar combine and
    you tell me, we don't sell those because you are the only one who buys
    them and its not worth it for us.  I'll say "ok," load my wife and
    kids back in the pickup truck and head into town.  While I'm in town
    I'll buy all my groceries at the big supermarket instead of stopping
    next door at your grocery store for them.  Since I'm already in town I
    buy the new stove the old lady wanted, and purchase that new rifle I
    had been eyeballing in your gun rack. So because you were to stubborn
    to stock what I needed I bought a bunch of high turn rate items and a
    couple high margin items from somebody else.  Instead of having some
    stocking costs you lost a huge number of sales.

    Oh pleeeeease, that is not how the retail world works, those that remain
    in business. It is a daily occurrence that customers walk out of stores
    all over the world and empty handed every day. One does not remain in
    business by continuing to buy an item that no longer warrants space on
    the shelf or by stocking "everything" and not ever selling some of it.

    And referring back to all those lathes, 60 was it? I seriously doubt
    that those lathes were in his stock. Certainly he had access to a >>>>>>>>>> source that he could become a middle man with that variety. And of >>>>>>>>>> those 60 lathes they certainly would be shipped direct to the customer
    and not from a single source/manufacturer.

    Several woodworking stores sell and stock SawStop. You can buy a table
    saw right when you walk inside and pay and load it in your truck. BUT
    with a very popular model and is the original model, you cannot do this.
    You pay and the saw is shipped direct from one of Woodcraft's sources.
    This is why their catalog has more in it than you can go to the store
    and walk out with. That is ONE example of many.

    I was the local Woodcraft today. They had three models of SSs in >>>>>>>>> stock. They didn't have any of the Laguna saws in stock but sold one >>>>>>>>> anyway. ;-) They also had all three models (16/32. 19/36, and 25/50) >>>>>>>>> of the Supermax drum sanders and a couple of Jets. I didn't know that >>>>>>>>> drum sanders were so popular.

    They were short of the mid/high end lathes because the lead time is so
    long, at least three months, and they're selling like hotcakes. They >>>>>>>>> had four mobility kits for the Revo 18/36 ($700 for wheels) on the >>>>>>>>> floor waiting for something to put them on.

    Of course they can't carry everything but they keep a lot more >>>>>>>>> expensive inventory in the store than one would expect. OTOH, their >>>>>>>>> Festool inventory is really shabby, particularly accessories. >>>>>>>>
    Some stores do stock a lot of inventory. But possibly, and this has >>>>>>>> happened to me in the past, items on back order show up all at once. >>>>>>>> You tend to be over stocked as a result. With supply chain difficulties
    you order as much as you can and hope for the best. This is not totally
    unlike a back order from the source.

    I recall way back when GM was having issues with catalytic converters. >>>>>>>> We were replacing 4~5 per day and we could not get enough. This seemed
    to go on for years. I finally got my back ordered converters in a >>>>>>>> single shipment of over 200 units. I typically ordered 10~15 every two >>>>>>>> weeks. To put that into perspective that increased the value of my >>>>>>>> inventory by 20%. This was 40 years ago and GM parts was in Houston >>>>>>>> also. I did not stock the obscure stuff, I let the other dealers bloat
    their inventories with these odd parts. I stocked items that moved and
    bought the odd stuff as needed and daily. GMPD was not in particular >>>>>>>> happy with me. They wanted me to keep a 120 day supply of parts. I saw
    no need for more than 60. So my inventory was probably half of what >>>>>>>> they thought I should have.

    The 120 day supply was to buffer their inability to supply parts. I had
    plenty of other sources than GMPD to get GM parts.


    So what may appear to be a well stocked show room floor could be back >>>>>>>> orders or product finally being delivered all at once.

    Could be but they've always had SSs in stock and,

    Unless something has changed, SS did not send the ICS models to
    Woodcraft except for a display model. When I bought and even relatively >>>>>> recently the ICS TS was shipped direct to the customer after placing the >>>>>> order with Woodcraft.



    at least in the fall
    of 2020 they had all of the SuperMax sanders and at least six or eight >>>>>>> lathes in stock, including three Laguna models, a Powermatic, and a >>>>>>> bunch of midis of various sorts. There are two Woodcrafts in town. >>>>>>> Between the two, they stock a good slice of the stationary machinery >>>>>>> market.

    I wish they'd get the back-ordered Festool accessories back in stock. >>>>>>> I may be near Highland in a couple of weeks. They're usually good, >>>>>>> though they're out of the Shaper 1/8" collet.

    Because of Festool's pricing structure if my local Woodcraft does not >>>>>> have the parts I order from Amazon for the same price with no shipping. >>>>>> For the past year the parts ordered through Amazon have been shipped >>>>>> direct from Hartville Hardware.

    I tried to order the collet from Amazon. The only seller (Shaper)
    wanted $10 shipping for a $50 part. They're as bad as Woodpeckers.
    I've gotten as far as the checkout page at Woodpeckers and just
    deleted everything because the shipping costs were absurd. I did the >>>>> same with Shaper.


    Shaper ships for free with a minimum $75 order. Add a roll or two of
    double stick tape or a couple of bits.

    Didn't know that. It sounds like a plan. I'm sure the Shaper Tape
    will get used.

    Done.


    Highland does a good job stocking Festool. They had the edge sanding >>>>> widget when it came out (though the store was closed for over a year). >>>>> Woodcraft didn't know it existed. Still don't. Highland is out of the >>>>> collets but their catalog says they'll be back in stock in a week or >>>>> two. They said they try to keep five Origins and workstations in stock >>>>> at all times. It's a well run family operation but obviously not as
    large as Hartsville.


    I bought the edge sanding attachment and the sander to work with it
    about a year ago, locally through a hard wood dealer. They are such a >>>> small Festool dealer that no one realized these hard to find accessories >>>> would be at this lumber yard.

    If anyone is buying stationary tools, WoodWerks didn't charge sales
    tax (and minimal shipping) on my jointer. I don't know how they got >>>>> away with it but they did. They only collected Ohio and a couple of
    surrounding states' tax.

    It is up to the individual states to "enforce" their sales tax laws.
    This happened in Texas for many many years but lately most any retail
    sale is taxed and collected for sales in Texas these days.

    But the feds have given them the power to enforce their laws, complete
    with penalties. Add to that, that *I* actually owe the tax. I'll pay
    it on my state income tax form as a "use tax". <wink> <wink>

    Yes, the individual is suppose to pay the sales tax on untaxed goods.
    Something that we absolutely do. My wife was an enforcement officer for
    the state. She gets a pension from that career and we are not willing
    to save a few tax dollars to forfeit the pension.

    I didn't think you lived in California.

    Nope, TX

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Leon on Tue Feb 22 17:19:39 2022
    On Tuesday, February 22, 2022 at 6:20:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 2/21/2022 5:40 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Monday, February 21, 2022 at 11:13:57 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 2/20/2022 9:03 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Sunday, February 20, 2022 at 9:48:58 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote: >>>> On Sun, 20 Feb 2022 21:09:48 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <e...@snet.xxx> wrote: >>>>
    On 2/20/2022 3:45 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:


    Musings for thought:

    I sometimes wonder if Amazon would be what it is today if Sears had held
    onto their massive selection and transitioned their catalog department >>>>>> over to an online presence instead of shutting it down. In 1993 when >>>>>> they shut down the catalog department on-line services were just barely
    starting to reach beyond the computer nerds.


    Sears screwed up and did not see the future. If they did, Amazon may >>>>> still be just a book seller.
    Sears was a Titanic with no rudder. Seeing the future would have meant >>>> dismantling the present. That's exceedingly rare.

    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.
    Still pretty strong. Prints of digital files are still pretty strong
    and there are plenty of stores offering this service.

    "Pretty strong" is a very relative term.
    Still pretty strong from a customers point of view that wants prints.

    Down from >65,000 employees in the 80's to ~4,500 today.

    Removed from the S&P in 2010, delisted by the NYSE and moved to OTC in 2012.

    Filed for bankruptcy and canceled health care benefits for 56,000 retirees in 2012.
    Or should I say "Filed for bankruptcy *in order to* cancel health care benefits for
    56,000 retirees in 2012"?

    Stock price >$94 in 1997, a penny stock by 2011. (EK, not KODK. Even KODK is <$5)

    From a perennial Fortune 500 company to a penny stock. Ouch!

    Today's Kodak (KODK) is not the Kodak (EK) of old. The old Kodak stuck with the idea that
    roll coating (film) would be a sustainable business for way too long. They basically invented
    digital photography and then put it on the shelf. By the time they gave up the film dream, the
    rest of the digital world had passed them by. They were losing money on every digital camera
    they sold. Between 1998 and 2000 they lost over $360M on the digital side of the business. So
    what was their next move? They lowered the price of their cameras in 2000 to try and garner
    more market share. Nice try...too late.

    They eventually sold a portfolio of digital patents allegedly worth $2.5B (with a B) for $525M. That
    wasn't a very strong play. Granted, the $2.5B value is very suspect because of all the licensing
    agreements that were attached. Besides, they were hurting so bad at that point that they didn't
    come to the table with a lot of negotiating power.

    What passes for "Kodak" today is a shadow of what the company once was.

    Well now that you looked all of that up, ...

    Actually I lived it. For 21 years. Got stock options at ~$50 that were worthless by the time
    they vested. Not enough time in for the pension to reach the steep slope, so all I got from
    them was what they matched in my 401k.

    Well, that's not true. 2 weeks pay for each year of service, so 42 weeks to get me through
    looking for a new job at a time that Kodak and Xerox were both going through massive RIFs.
    There were a lot of people (thousands) pounding the pavement at the time.

    The main thing I got from them was a free engineering degree. I was hired with an Associates
    Degree and shortly thereafter I convinced them that they were wasting my talents by having
    me fix computers. "Pay for my Bachelors degree so I can get promoted." They agreed, gave
    me time off of work to attend classes and covered the cost of 2 years at RIT. Money flowed
    easy when Kodak was in their heyday.

    Then as divisions were sold off or mothballed and buildings began to be torn down, there were
    no more projects coming down the pike. They didn't IT project managers any more. Towards
    the end we used to drive through Kodak Park, look at all the red brick landscaping material being
    spread around the remaining buildings and make jokes like "That used to be Bldg. 320". Seriously,
    they were decorating the plant with the remnants of old buildings.

    So yeah, I know a bit about Kodak's history. Times were good for the first 15 years or so and then
    the stress of "Who's next to go?" and saying goodbye to friends weighed on us for quite a while.

    It's all good. I'm sure I'm better off now than I would have been if they kept me around. I set my own
    hours, I make enough for a stress free life and I'm set for retirement when I'm ready - or when SWMBO
    tells me I am.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 22 20:59:04 2022
    On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:17:55 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 11:52 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    wrote in message news:qhm71hh0fg59nj51r29mpaflmrhk9000j9@4ax.com...

    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:07:54 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
    <nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:

    My son is looking for a modestly priced rolling tool chest. I
    noticed one
    at HF that has much better customer feed back than ones from Sears
    and other
    big box stores and the price is very competitive. As someone else said >>>> early on in this thread... be selective when shopping at HF!

    I bought a couple of the tool cart style (five drawer) for $179. It's
    certainly good and worth every penny of $179. The rest of my cabinets
    are from Sam's Club, the Classics Sevelle series. The drawers are
    chin cy but everything else is very nice. The workbenches, in
    particular are nice. Really heavy with a 1-1/2" maple top, They're
    excellent bargains at $240.

    My son and I took a ride to HF last evening to look at the rolling tool
    cabinets as they had a holiday sale underway that ended yesterday. Since
    the store was about a half hour away on the highway I called them
    earlier in the day to check their holiday hours. I mentioned where I was
    coming from and what I was looking for. The guy that answered the phone
    couldn't have been more helpful. He not only checked the stock on the
    computer but he put his hands on them in the store room to make sure
    they were there.

    When we got to the store I was actually surprised by the rolling tool
    cabinets. The drawers worked smoothly, the case was solid, the overall
    fit and finish was quite good, the drawers all had non-slip liners, and
    with the sale the price was very competitive. We ended up driving out of
    there with two of them! One for my son and one for me... Would they
    hold up for decades under heavy use in a commercial automotive shop...
    probably not. In our shops they stand a good chance of lasting
    indefinitely and are light years ahead of the Craftsman rolling tool
    cabinets I looked at (that had terrible reviews on-line and clunky
    drawer slides). I think these will work out just fine.

    My son had never been in a HF so he walked around. After working in my
    shop and with my tools he could tell a lot of the stuff was not up to
    snuff. He stopped at the screwdriver display and examined them. There
    was a set of 12 that sells for $8. He knew I just replaced all my screw
    drivers and had examined them. Some of the old ones were 40+ year old
    Craftsman and other brands that had disappeared from the market. Most
    were good tools but the years of use caught up with them. My new Klein
    screwdrivers cost $7-$20 each... the HF screwdrivers averaged to about
    70 each. My son could tell they weren't in the same league as the
    Klein. I was glad to see he paid attention to what I'd been telling him
    over the years. ;~)



    The pro tool boxes only need to be strong when being loaded into the
    back of a truck and moved to a new employer. I have seen plenty of
    Craftsman tool boxes hold up for decades in a mechanical shop.

    I bought my wife one of the small roll around HF boxes for her quilting >studio.

    I bought a couple of these when they first came out.

    <https://www.harborfreight.com/tool-storage-organization/tool-storage/tool-carts/30-in-5-drawer-mechanics-cart-red-64061.html>

    That said I will say that the quality of the ICON/Ikon brand tool boxes
    seem to be very Impressive.

    For $2000 or $3000, it's not too surprising that they're OK.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 22 22:09:15 2022
    On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:35:47 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 5:26 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:43:48 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 12:11 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/21/2022 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:


    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.



    Still pretty strong. Prints of digital files are still pretty strong >>>>> and there are plenty of stores offering this service.

    When digital first started I had no interest. Quality sucked. Can't
    compete with my Olympus OM-2. Then one day, they got better.

    No way would I go back to film now and my printer makes great copies too >>>> with the right paper.


    I still prefer slow film over digital for quality. But that is too much >>> trouble any more. I used to love working with ASA 25 and 64.

    I liked B&W photography. It took a lot of skill to do really good
    work. Color is easy. Contrast and texture are hard. I liked to use
    the Ilford 25ASA B&W for artsy stuff but also used a lot of Tri-X
    pushed to 1600ASA and infrared film for low light.

    Yes the B&W photography was an art in itself. I did not have the
    patience for that.




    I switched from Canon SLR's several years ago, I had a Canon TX, AE1,
    A1, 650, and a 630.

    I had a chrome (cheaper) Canon FTb in college. I worked at the
    newspaper as a photographer. They had a decent selection of lenses
    that I could use.

    I remember the FTb, did it have a built in light meter? The TX had a
    build in light meter buy was strictly manual past that. Then with my
    all time favorite, the AE1 with the auto aperture exposure setting to
    match the shutter speed. And that one was all black on a brass? body.

    Yes, the FTb had the same open-lens TTL metering as the F1. There was
    a pin on the FD lenses that told the camera the maximum F-number of
    the lens. The previous generation, the TL, IIRC, used the FL lenses
    that didn't have the pin so was stop-down metering only. The FTb and
    F1 could also use the stop-down mode to see the depth of field.

    The A1 and AE1 were a generation after the FTb and F1. The A1 and AE1
    both shutter speed and aperture priority auto-exposure modes.

    I believe all of Canon's SLRs had TTL metering.

    Fifteen years ago ebay had a bunch of *really* expensive Canon
    breech-lock lenses for sale for a penny or two on the dollar. I got
    some really fast telephotos and a couple of black FTbs but never
    really used them. Film and developing had already gotten to be a PITA.

    I dabbled in processing slide film. I only liked to use slide film
    until my wife decided that I needed to shoot negative film and get prints.

    Kodachrome couldn't be processed outside the lab but Ectachrome could
    be done at home but it was a bit tricky.

    I really liked the lenses before auto-focus.

    The Canon micro-prism TTL focus and meter linked to the F-Stop were
    great. Friends preferred Nikon's split focus but it didn't work for
    me for some reason. Stop-down metering was a drag too.

    Yes, my TX had the 2 circles a split bulls eye and the prism circle
    around that. You could not miss focusing with that. I have to say that
    I don't recall what the view finder focus looked like on the AE1 and A1.

    The inner circle was the split *mumble* focus and the ring around it
    was a microprism focus. The meter measured the light in the focusing
    circle so it could be used as a spot meter.


    For what ever reason I went to a couple of Fuji upper end fixed lens
    digital and got great results for a digital camera.

    A few years back I decided to switch to a Nikon D500. With covid I have >>> not had much od a chance of using it.
    BUT the auto-focus, lock on, and track a moving object, and a bunch of
    frames per second is pretty cool.

    I switched to Olympus but it was short lived. I carry my phone
    everywhere. A camera is a PITA to lug around. If I could marry the
    FD series lenses to a DSLR, it would change things. I'd be lugging
    20lbs of lenses around. ;-)

    LOL. Damn phones make every one look good with out knowing the
    mechanics. I don't miss the Domke back pack though.

    Everyone good or perhaps everyone equally bad. ;-) The camera in
    phones is better than can possibly be used.

    I have to be on a mission to carry the DSLR.

    I doubt my Olympus even works. I'm sure the batteries (NiCd) don't.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Grossbohlin@21:1/5 to Leon on Tue Feb 22 22:24:04 2022
    "Leon" wrote in message
    news:VpCdncy9Hqu58oj_nZ2dnUU7-R3NnZ2d@giganews.com...

    The pro tool boxes only need to be strong when being loaded into the back
    of a truck and moved to a new employer. I have seen plenty of Craftsman
    tool boxes hold up for decades in a mechanical shop.

    I've got a Craftsman top chest that is about 25 years old. While I was rearranging tools today I realized just how badly worn the drawer slides are now. The drawers only pull out straight if I grab them dead center... The slightest bit off and the drawers torque in the opening and I have to exert some side pressure to get them to straighten out. It's one of those things that imperceptibly deteriorated over time, that I unconsciously compensated for, and that wasn't noticed until I had a new rolling cabinet. Oh well... that top chest is taking on a new role where is doesn't get used as often
    and it will continue to be useful.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to John Grossbohlin on Wed Feb 23 12:12:27 2022
    On 2/22/2022 9:24 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "Leon"  wrote in message news:VpCdncy9Hqu58oj_nZ2dnUU7-R3NnZ2d@giganews.com...

    The pro tool boxes only need to be strong when being loaded into the
    back of a truck and moved to a new employer.  I have seen plenty of
    Craftsman tool boxes hold up for decades in a mechanical shop.

    I've got a Craftsman top chest that is about 25 years old. While I was rearranging tools today I realized just how badly worn the drawer slides
    are now. The drawers only pull out straight if I grab them dead
    center... The slightest bit off and the drawers torque in the opening
    and I have to exert some side pressure to get them to straighten out.
    It's one of those things that imperceptibly deteriorated over time, that
    I unconsciously compensated for, and that wasn't noticed until I had a
    new rolling cabinet.  Oh well... that top chest is taking on a new role where is doesn't get used as often and it will continue to be useful.



    I bought a Craftsman top and bottom box in 1983. Served me well until I
    moved it to our new home 10 years ago. It did not hold up to the
    pushing and shoving in and out of the truck. And that was with a lift gate.

    I out grew it long long ago and with it's sides no longer being plumb to
    the floor I replaced it with a larger Husky. It is pretty HD but I
    don't know if it would hold up to being lifter by an automotive lift and
    rolled into a pick-up bed very many times. That is the abuse that a
    tool box has to withstand in automotive shops.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Wed Feb 23 12:06:13 2022
    On 2/22/2022 7:59 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:17:55 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 11:52 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    wrote in message news:qhm71hh0fg59nj51r29mpaflmrhk9000j9@4ax.com...

    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:07:54 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
    <nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:

    My son is looking for a modestly priced rolling tool chest.  I
    noticed one
    at HF that has much better customer feed back than ones from Sears
    and other
    big box stores and the price is very competitive.  As someone else said >>>>> early on in this thread... be selective when shopping at HF!

    I bought a couple of the tool cart style (five drawer) for $179.  It's >>>> certainly good and worth every penny of $179. The rest of my cabinets
    are from Sam's Club, the Classics Sevelle series.  The drawers are
    chin cy but everything else is very nice.  The workbenches, in
    particular are nice.  Really heavy with a 1-1/2" maple top,  They're >>>> excellent bargains at $240.

    My son and I took a ride to HF last evening to look at the rolling tool
    cabinets as they had a holiday sale underway that ended yesterday. Since >>> the store was about a half hour away on the highway I called them
    earlier in the day to check their holiday hours. I mentioned where I was >>> coming from and what I was looking for. The guy that answered the phone
    couldn't have been more helpful. He not only checked the stock on the
    computer but he put his hands on them in the store room to make sure
    they were there.

    When we got to the store I was actually surprised by the rolling tool
    cabinets. The drawers worked smoothly, the case was solid, the overall
    fit and finish was quite good, the drawers all had non-slip liners, and
    with the sale the price was very competitive. We ended up driving out of >>> there with two of them!  One for my son and one for me...  Would they
    hold up for decades under heavy use in a commercial automotive shop...
    probably not. In our shops they stand a good chance of lasting
    indefinitely and are light years ahead of the Craftsman rolling tool
    cabinets I looked at (that had terrible reviews on-line and clunky
    drawer slides). I think these will work out just fine.

    My son had never been in a HF so he walked around. After working in my
    shop and with my tools he could tell a lot of the stuff was not up to
    snuff. He stopped at the screwdriver display and examined them. There
    was a set of 12 that sells for $8. He knew I just replaced all my screw
    drivers and had examined them. Some of the old ones were 40+ year old
    Craftsman and other brands that had disappeared from the market. Most
    were good tools but the years of use caught up with them.  My new Klein >>> screwdrivers cost $7-$20 each... the HF screwdrivers averaged to about
    70¢ each. My son could tell they weren't in the same league as the
    Klein.  I was glad to see he paid attention to what I'd been telling him >>> over the years. ;~)



    The pro tool boxes only need to be strong when being loaded into the
    back of a truck and moved to a new employer. I have seen plenty of
    Craftsman tool boxes hold up for decades in a mechanical shop.

    I bought my wife one of the small roll around HF boxes for her quilting
    studio.

    I bought a couple of these when they first came out.

    <https://www.harborfreight.com/tool-storage-organization/tool-storage/tool-carts/30-in-5-drawer-mechanics-cart-red-64061.html>

    That said I will say that the quality of the ICON/Ikon brand tool boxes
    seem to be very Impressive.

    For $2000 or $3000, it's not too surprising that they're OK.


    Have you priced a Snap-On or Mac tool box lately?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Wed Feb 23 12:33:42 2022
    On 2/22/2022 9:09 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:35:47 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 5:26 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:43:48 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 12:11 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/21/2022 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:


    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.



    Still pretty strong.  Prints of digital files are still pretty strong >>>>>> and there are plenty of stores offering this service.

    When digital first started I had no interest.  Quality sucked.  Can't >>>>> compete with my Olympus OM-2.  Then one day, they got better.

    No way would I go back to film now and my printer makes great copies too >>>>> with the right paper.


    I still prefer slow film over digital for quality. But that is too much >>>> trouble any more. I used to love working with ASA 25 and 64.

    I liked B&W photography. It took a lot of skill to do really good
    work. Color is easy. Contrast and texture are hard. I liked to use
    the Ilford 25ASA B&W for artsy stuff but also used a lot of Tri-X
    pushed to 1600ASA and infrared film for low light.

    Yes the B&W photography was an art in itself. I did not have the
    patience for that.




    I switched from Canon SLR's several years ago, I had a Canon TX, AE1,
    A1, 650, and a 630.

    I had a chrome (cheaper) Canon FTb in college. I worked at the
    newspaper as a photographer. They had a decent selection of lenses
    that I could use.

    I remember the FTb, did it have a built in light meter? The TX had a
    build in light meter buy was strictly manual past that. Then with my
    all time favorite, the AE1 with the auto aperture exposure setting to
    match the shutter speed. And that one was all black on a brass? body.

    Yes, the FTb had the same open-lens TTL metering as the F1. There was
    a pin on the FD lenses that told the camera the maximum F-number of
    the lens. The previous generation, the TL, IIRC, used the FL lenses
    that didn't have the pin so was stop-down metering only. The FTb and
    F1 could also use the stop-down mode to see the depth of field.

    The A1 and AE1 were a generation after the FTb and F1. The A1 and AE1
    both shutter speed and aperture priority auto-exposure modes.

    No, actually the AE1 only had the shutter priority, When the A1 came out
    with both shutter and aperture priority I traded up.

    The AE1 Program model still had Shutter priority but added AE with the
    camere in control of both the shutter and aperture, the user only
    focused and pushed the shutter button.



    I believe all of Canon's SLRs had TTL metering.

    Fifteen years ago ebay had a bunch of *really* expensive Canon
    breech-lock lenses for sale for a penny or two on the dollar. I got
    some really fast telephotos and a couple of black FTbs but never
    really used them. Film and developing had already gotten to be a PITA.

    I dabbled in processing slide film. I only liked to use slide film
    until my wife decided that I needed to shoot negative film and get prints.

    Kodachrome couldn't be processed outside the lab but Ectachrome could
    be done at home but it was a bit tricky.

    I developed a lot of Extcharome. I only needed to be in a dark room
    when loading the film into a light safe container. From there the
    kitchen sink was my lab. ;~)




    I really liked the lenses before auto-focus.

    The Canon micro-prism TTL focus and meter linked to the F-Stop were
    great. Friends preferred Nikon's split focus but it didn't work for
    me for some reason. Stop-down metering was a drag too.

    Yes, my TX had the 2 circles a split bulls eye and the prism circle
    around that. You could not miss focusing with that. I have to say that
    I don't recall what the view finder focus looked like on the AE1 and A1.

    The inner circle was the split *mumble* focus and the ring around it
    was a microprism focus. The meter measured the light in the focusing
    circle so it could be used as a spot meter.


    For what ever reason I went to a couple of Fuji upper end fixed lens
    digital and got great results for a digital camera.

    A few years back I decided to switch to a Nikon D500. With covid I have >>>> not had much od a chance of using it.
    BUT the auto-focus, lock on, and track a moving object, and a bunch of >>>> frames per second is pretty cool.

    I switched to Olympus but it was short lived. I carry my phone
    everywhere. A camera is a PITA to lug around. If I could marry the
    FD series lenses to a DSLR, it would change things. I'd be lugging
    20lbs of lenses around. ;-)

    LOL. Damn phones make every one look good with out knowing the
    mechanics. I don't miss the Domke back pack though.

    Everyone good or perhaps everyone equally bad. ;-) The camera in
    phones is better than can possibly be used.

    I have to be on a mission to carry the DSLR.

    I doubt my Olympus even works. I'm sure the batteries (NiCd) don't.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 23 14:41:26 2022
    On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 12:33:42 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/22/2022 9:09 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:35:47 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 5:26 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:43:48 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 12:11 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/21/2022 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:


    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.



    Still pretty strong. Prints of digital files are still pretty strong >>>>>>> and there are plenty of stores offering this service.

    When digital first started I had no interest. Quality sucked. Can't >>>>>> compete with my Olympus OM-2. Then one day, they got better.

    No way would I go back to film now and my printer makes great copies too >>>>>> with the right paper.


    I still prefer slow film over digital for quality. But that is too much >>>>> trouble any more. I used to love working with ASA 25 and 64.

    I liked B&W photography. It took a lot of skill to do really good
    work. Color is easy. Contrast and texture are hard. I liked to use
    the Ilford 25ASA B&W for artsy stuff but also used a lot of Tri-X
    pushed to 1600ASA and infrared film for low light.

    Yes the B&W photography was an art in itself. I did not have the
    patience for that.




    I switched from Canon SLR's several years ago, I had a Canon TX, AE1, >>>>> A1, 650, and a 630.

    I had a chrome (cheaper) Canon FTb in college. I worked at the
    newspaper as a photographer. They had a decent selection of lenses
    that I could use.

    I remember the FTb, did it have a built in light meter? The TX had a
    build in light meter buy was strictly manual past that. Then with my
    all time favorite, the AE1 with the auto aperture exposure setting to
    match the shutter speed. And that one was all black on a brass? body.

    Yes, the FTb had the same open-lens TTL metering as the F1. There was
    a pin on the FD lenses that told the camera the maximum F-number of
    the lens. The previous generation, the TL, IIRC, used the FL lenses
    that didn't have the pin so was stop-down metering only. The FTb and
    F1 could also use the stop-down mode to see the depth of field.

    The A1 and AE1 were a generation after the FTb and F1. The A1 and AE1
    both shutter speed and aperture priority auto-exposure modes.

    No, actually the AE1 only had the shutter priority, When the A1 came out
    with both shutter and aperture priority I traded up.

    The AE1 Program model still had Shutter priority but added AE with the
    camere in control of both the shutter and aperture, the user only
    focused and pushed the shutter button.

    There is a lot to forget in fifty years. I didn't have an AE1 or A2
    (or F1, for that matter). As a poor college student, the FTb was a
    mighty stretch.


    I believe all of Canon's SLRs had TTL metering.

    Fifteen years ago ebay had a bunch of *really* expensive Canon
    breech-lock lenses for sale for a penny or two on the dollar. I got
    some really fast telephotos and a couple of black FTbs but never
    really used them. Film and developing had already gotten to be a PITA.

    I dabbled in processing slide film. I only liked to use slide film
    until my wife decided that I needed to shoot negative film and get prints. >>
    Kodachrome couldn't be processed outside the lab but Ectachrome could
    be done at home but it was a bit tricky.

    I developed a lot of Extcharome. I only needed to be in a dark room
    when loading the film into a light safe container. From there the
    kitchen sink was my lab. ;~)

    I used the stainless reels and bottom of those containers but using
    the light-safe feature was more than iffy. It took too long to get
    the developer and fixer in and out of the cap and it messed up the
    timing (didn't use the lids for B&W, either). I used a darkroom with
    even the outside lights turned off. It takes a mighty dark room to
    develop color film.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 23 14:33:55 2022
    On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 12:06:13 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/22/2022 7:59 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:17:55 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 11:52 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    wrote in message news:qhm71hh0fg59nj51r29mpaflmrhk9000j9@4ax.com...

    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:07:54 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
    <nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:

    My son is looking for a modestly priced rolling tool chest. I
    noticed one
    at HF that has much better customer feed back than ones from Sears >>>>>> and other
    big box stores and the price is very competitive. As someone else said >>>>>> early on in this thread... be selective when shopping at HF!

    I bought a couple of the tool cart style (five drawer) for $179. It's >>>>> certainly good and worth every penny of $179. The rest of my cabinets >>>>> are from Sam's Club, the Classics Sevelle series. The drawers are
    chin cy but everything else is very nice. The workbenches, in
    particular are nice. Really heavy with a 1-1/2" maple top, They're >>>>> excellent bargains at $240.

    My son and I took a ride to HF last evening to look at the rolling tool >>>> cabinets as they had a holiday sale underway that ended yesterday. Since >>>> the store was about a half hour away on the highway I called them
    earlier in the day to check their holiday hours. I mentioned where I was >>>> coming from and what I was looking for. The guy that answered the phone >>>> couldn't have been more helpful. He not only checked the stock on the
    computer but he put his hands on them in the store room to make sure
    they were there.

    When we got to the store I was actually surprised by the rolling tool
    cabinets. The drawers worked smoothly, the case was solid, the overall >>>> fit and finish was quite good, the drawers all had non-slip liners, and >>>> with the sale the price was very competitive. We ended up driving out of >>>> there with two of them! One for my son and one for me... Would they
    hold up for decades under heavy use in a commercial automotive shop... >>>> probably not. In our shops they stand a good chance of lasting
    indefinitely and are light years ahead of the Craftsman rolling tool
    cabinets I looked at (that had terrible reviews on-line and clunky
    drawer slides). I think these will work out just fine.

    My son had never been in a HF so he walked around. After working in my >>>> shop and with my tools he could tell a lot of the stuff was not up to
    snuff. He stopped at the screwdriver display and examined them. There
    was a set of 12 that sells for $8. He knew I just replaced all my screw >>>> drivers and had examined them. Some of the old ones were 40+ year old
    Craftsman and other brands that had disappeared from the market. Most
    were good tools but the years of use caught up with them. My new Klein >>>> screwdrivers cost $7-$20 each... the HF screwdrivers averaged to about >>>> 70 each. My son could tell they weren't in the same league as the
    Klein. I was glad to see he paid attention to what I'd been telling him >>>> over the years. ;~)



    The pro tool boxes only need to be strong when being loaded into the
    back of a truck and moved to a new employer. I have seen plenty of
    Craftsman tool boxes hold up for decades in a mechanical shop.

    I bought my wife one of the small roll around HF boxes for her quilting
    studio.

    I bought a couple of these when they first came out.

    <https://www.harborfreight.com/tool-storage-organization/tool-storage/tool-carts/30-in-5-drawer-mechanics-cart-red-64061.html>

    That said I will say that the quality of the ICON/Ikon brand tool boxes
    seem to be very Impressive.

    For $2000 or $3000, it's not too surprising that they're OK.


    Have you priced a Snap-On or Mac tool box lately?

    No, I thought the money was better spend on a new truck. It was
    cheaper.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Leon on Wed Feb 23 11:35:12 2022
    On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 1:33:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 2/22/2022 9:09 PM, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:35:47 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 5:26 PM, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:43:48 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 12:11 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/21/2022 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:


    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.



    Still pretty strong. Prints of digital files are still pretty strong >>>>>> and there are plenty of stores offering this service.

    When digital first started I had no interest. Quality sucked. Can't >>>>> compete with my Olympus OM-2. Then one day, they got better.

    No way would I go back to film now and my printer makes great copies too
    with the right paper.


    I still prefer slow film over digital for quality. But that is too much >>>> trouble any more. I used to love working with ASA 25 and 64.

    I liked B&W photography. It took a lot of skill to do really good
    work. Color is easy. Contrast and texture are hard. I liked to use
    the Ilford 25ASA B&W for artsy stuff but also used a lot of Tri-X
    pushed to 1600ASA and infrared film for low light.

    Yes the B&W photography was an art in itself. I did not have the
    patience for that.




    I switched from Canon SLR's several years ago, I had a Canon TX, AE1, >>>> A1, 650, and a 630.

    I had a chrome (cheaper) Canon FTb in college. I worked at the
    newspaper as a photographer. They had a decent selection of lenses
    that I could use.

    I remember the FTb, did it have a built in light meter? The TX had a
    build in light meter buy was strictly manual past that. Then with my
    all time favorite, the AE1 with the auto aperture exposure setting to
    match the shutter speed. And that one was all black on a brass? body.

    Yes, the FTb had the same open-lens TTL metering as the F1. There was
    a pin on the FD lenses that told the camera the maximum F-number of
    the lens. The previous generation, the TL, IIRC, used the FL lenses
    that didn't have the pin so was stop-down metering only. The FTb and
    F1 could also use the stop-down mode to see the depth of field.

    The A1 and AE1 were a generation after the FTb and F1. The A1 and AE1
    both shutter speed and aperture priority auto-exposure modes.
    No, actually the AE1 only had the shutter priority, When the A1 came out
    with both shutter and aperture priority I traded up.

    The AE1 Program model still had Shutter priority but added AE with the
    camere in control of both the shutter and aperture, the user only
    focused and pushed the shutter button.

    I believe all of Canon's SLRs had TTL metering.

    Fifteen years ago ebay had a bunch of *really* expensive Canon
    breech-lock lenses for sale for a penny or two on the dollar. I got
    some really fast telephotos and a couple of black FTbs but never
    really used them. Film and developing had already gotten to be a PITA.

    I dabbled in processing slide film. I only liked to use slide film
    until my wife decided that I needed to shoot negative film and get prints.

    Kodachrome couldn't be processed outside the lab but Ectachrome could
    be done at home but it was a bit tricky.
    I developed a lot of Extcharome. I only needed to be in a dark room
    when loading the film into a light safe container. From there the
    kitchen sink was my lab. ;~)

    I really liked the lenses before auto-focus.

    The Canon micro-prism TTL focus and meter linked to the F-Stop were
    great. Friends preferred Nikon's split focus but it didn't work for
    me for some reason. Stop-down metering was a drag too.

    Yes, my TX had the 2 circles a split bulls eye and the prism circle
    around that. You could not miss focusing with that. I have to say that
    I don't recall what the view finder focus looked like on the AE1 and A1. >>
    The inner circle was the split *mumble* focus and the ring around it
    was a microprism focus. The meter measured the light in the focusing
    circle so it could be used as a spot meter.


    For what ever reason I went to a couple of Fuji upper end fixed lens >>>> digital and got great results for a digital camera.

    A few years back I decided to switch to a Nikon D500. With covid I have >>>> not had much od a chance of using it.
    BUT the auto-focus, lock on, and track a moving object, and a bunch of >>>> frames per second is pretty cool.

    I switched to Olympus but it was short lived. I carry my phone
    everywhere. A camera is a PITA to lug around. If I could marry the
    FD series lenses to a DSLR, it would change things. I'd be lugging
    20lbs of lenses around. ;-)

    LOL. Damn phones make every one look good with out knowing the
    mechanics. I don't miss the Domke back pack though.

    Everyone good or perhaps everyone equally bad. ;-) The camera in
    phones is better than can possibly be used.

    I have to be on a mission to carry the DSLR.

    I doubt my Olympus even works. I'm sure the batteries (NiCd) don't.

    Kodak (of course) had dark rooms available for employee use. I played around
    a bit but never really got into it.

    The dark rooms were in the same "rec" building that housed the 2000 seat theatre, the bowling alleys and the swimming pool that was never filled. The pool was built on the 6th floor. Just before it was to be filled, the engineers concluded that the building couldn't handle the weight of the water, so it was abandoned - sort of. They eventually used the pool/space to dry sections of
    the 18' x 60' Coloramas that were showcased in Grand Central station.

    I grew up in NYC and I remember the announcements each time a new Colorama
    was installed. Even went to a few unveilings. Eventually, I ended working for the
    company that made them.

    https://medium.com/@Kodak/larger-than-life-kodaks-iconic-colorama-eecc5ba0193f

    SWMBO and I still catch a couple of shows a year at the theatre, now named Kodak
    Center. We just saw The Fab Four there earlier this month. If you like the Beatles, and
    these guys come to your town, you should go. They put on a really good show.

    https://www.jambase.com/band/the-fab-four

    The theatre is also the place where we'd go for the big division-wide meetings during
    the time when they were announcing their annual "restructuring plans" aka layoffs.
    From "See ya...Bye" to "Hello Hello".

    Did you see what I did there? ;-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Wed Feb 23 14:10:18 2022
    On 2/23/2022 1:33 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 12:06:13 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/22/2022 7:59 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:17:55 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 11:52 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    wrote in message news:qhm71hh0fg59nj51r29mpaflmrhk9000j9@4ax.com...

    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:07:54 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
    <nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:

    My son is looking for a modestly priced rolling tool chest.  I
    noticed one
    at HF that has much better customer feed back than ones from Sears >>>>>>> and other
    big box stores and the price is very competitive.  As someone else said
    early on in this thread... be selective when shopping at HF!

    I bought a couple of the tool cart style (five drawer) for $179.  It's >>>>>> certainly good and worth every penny of $179. The rest of my cabinets >>>>>> are from Sam's Club, the Classics Sevelle series.  The drawers are >>>>>> chin cy but everything else is very nice.  The workbenches, in
    particular are nice.  Really heavy with a 1-1/2" maple top,  They're >>>>>> excellent bargains at $240.

    My son and I took a ride to HF last evening to look at the rolling tool >>>>> cabinets as they had a holiday sale underway that ended yesterday. Since >>>>> the store was about a half hour away on the highway I called them
    earlier in the day to check their holiday hours. I mentioned where I was >>>>> coming from and what I was looking for. The guy that answered the phone >>>>> couldn't have been more helpful. He not only checked the stock on the >>>>> computer but he put his hands on them in the store room to make sure >>>>> they were there.

    When we got to the store I was actually surprised by the rolling tool >>>>> cabinets. The drawers worked smoothly, the case was solid, the overall >>>>> fit and finish was quite good, the drawers all had non-slip liners, and >>>>> with the sale the price was very competitive. We ended up driving out of >>>>> there with two of them!  One for my son and one for me...  Would they >>>>> hold up for decades under heavy use in a commercial automotive shop... >>>>> probably not. In our shops they stand a good chance of lasting
    indefinitely and are light years ahead of the Craftsman rolling tool >>>>> cabinets I looked at (that had terrible reviews on-line and clunky
    drawer slides). I think these will work out just fine.

    My son had never been in a HF so he walked around. After working in my >>>>> shop and with my tools he could tell a lot of the stuff was not up to >>>>> snuff. He stopped at the screwdriver display and examined them. There >>>>> was a set of 12 that sells for $8. He knew I just replaced all my screw >>>>> drivers and had examined them. Some of the old ones were 40+ year old >>>>> Craftsman and other brands that had disappeared from the market. Most >>>>> were good tools but the years of use caught up with them.  My new Klein >>>>> screwdrivers cost $7-$20 each... the HF screwdrivers averaged to about >>>>> 70¢ each. My son could tell they weren't in the same league as the
    Klein.  I was glad to see he paid attention to what I'd been telling him >>>>> over the years. ;~)



    The pro tool boxes only need to be strong when being loaded into the
    back of a truck and moved to a new employer. I have seen plenty of
    Craftsman tool boxes hold up for decades in a mechanical shop.

    I bought my wife one of the small roll around HF boxes for her quilting >>>> studio.

    I bought a couple of these when they first came out.

    <https://www.harborfreight.com/tool-storage-organization/tool-storage/tool-carts/30-in-5-drawer-mechanics-cart-red-64061.html>

    That said I will say that the quality of the ICON/Ikon brand tool boxes >>>> seem to be very Impressive.

    For $2000 or $3000, it's not too surprising that they're OK.


    Have you priced a Snap-On or Mac tool box lately?

    No, I thought the money was better spend on a new truck. It was
    cheaper.

    Close enough! LOL. I swear some of the mechanics put a year or two
    salary into their tools and boxes. But hey! The candy man delivers
    right to your shop!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to krw@notreal.com on Wed Feb 23 14:18:48 2022
    On 2/23/2022 1:41 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 12:33:42 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/22/2022 9:09 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:35:47 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 5:26 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:43:48 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 12:11 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/21/2022 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:


    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.



    Still pretty strong.  Prints of digital files are still pretty strong >>>>>>>> and there are plenty of stores offering this service.

    When digital first started I had no interest.  Quality sucked.  Can't >>>>>>> compete with my Olympus OM-2.  Then one day, they got better.

    No way would I go back to film now and my printer makes great copies too
    with the right paper.


    I still prefer slow film over digital for quality. But that is too much >>>>>> trouble any more. I used to love working with ASA 25 and 64.

    I liked B&W photography. It took a lot of skill to do really good
    work. Color is easy. Contrast and texture are hard. I liked to use >>>>> the Ilford 25ASA B&W for artsy stuff but also used a lot of Tri-X
    pushed to 1600ASA and infrared film for low light.

    Yes the B&W photography was an art in itself. I did not have the
    patience for that.




    I switched from Canon SLR's several years ago, I had a Canon TX, AE1, >>>>>> A1, 650, and a 630.

    I had a chrome (cheaper) Canon FTb in college. I worked at the
    newspaper as a photographer. They had a decent selection of lenses
    that I could use.

    I remember the FTb, did it have a built in light meter? The TX had a >>>> build in light meter buy was strictly manual past that. Then with my
    all time favorite, the AE1 with the auto aperture exposure setting to
    match the shutter speed. And that one was all black on a brass? body. >>>>
    Yes, the FTb had the same open-lens TTL metering as the F1. There was
    a pin on the FD lenses that told the camera the maximum F-number of
    the lens. The previous generation, the TL, IIRC, used the FL lenses
    that didn't have the pin so was stop-down metering only. The FTb and
    F1 could also use the stop-down mode to see the depth of field.

    The A1 and AE1 were a generation after the FTb and F1. The A1 and AE1
    both shutter speed and aperture priority auto-exposure modes.

    No, actually the AE1 only had the shutter priority, When the A1 came out
    with both shutter and aperture priority I traded up.

    The AE1 Program model still had Shutter priority but added AE with the
    camere in control of both the shutter and aperture, the user only
    focused and pushed the shutter button.

    There is a lot to forget in fifty years. I didn't have an AE1 or A2
    (or F1, for that matter). As a poor college student, the FTb was a
    mighty stretch.


    I believe all of Canon's SLRs had TTL metering.

    Fifteen years ago ebay had a bunch of *really* expensive Canon
    breech-lock lenses for sale for a penny or two on the dollar. I got >>>>> some really fast telephotos and a couple of black FTbs but never
    really used them. Film and developing had already gotten to be a PITA. >>>>
    I dabbled in processing slide film. I only liked to use slide film
    until my wife decided that I needed to shoot negative film and get prints. >>>
    Kodachrome couldn't be processed outside the lab but Ectachrome could
    be done at home but it was a bit tricky.

    I developed a lot of Extcharome. I only needed to be in a dark room
    when loading the film into a light safe container. From there the
    kitchen sink was my lab. ;~)

    I used the stainless reels and bottom of those containers but using
    the light-safe feature was more than iffy. It took too long to get
    the developer and fixer in and out of the cap and it messed up the
    timing (didn't use the lids for B&W, either). I used a darkroom with
    even the outside lights turned off. It takes a mighty dark room to
    develop color film.


    My reels and containers were both plastic. I had no problems with
    quickly changing out the chemicals. IIRC there were a few more
    exchanges of chemicals than 2. Seems like there was a wash in there a
    time or two.

    I for a short period used the Ektaflex color print contraption,
    developing prints in our spare bedroom. A REEEEL PIA.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Wed Feb 23 21:39:59 2022
    On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 14:18:48 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/23/2022 1:41 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 12:33:42 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/22/2022 9:09 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:35:47 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 5:26 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:43:48 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 12:11 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/21/2022 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:


    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also. >>>>>>>>>


    Still pretty strong. Prints of digital files are still pretty strong >>>>>>>>> and there are plenty of stores offering this service.

    When digital first started I had no interest. Quality sucked. Can't >>>>>>>> compete with my Olympus OM-2. Then one day, they got better.

    No way would I go back to film now and my printer makes great copies too
    with the right paper.


    I still prefer slow film over digital for quality. But that is too much
    trouble any more. I used to love working with ASA 25 and 64.

    I liked B&W photography. It took a lot of skill to do really good >>>>>> work. Color is easy. Contrast and texture are hard. I liked to use >>>>>> the Ilford 25ASA B&W for artsy stuff but also used a lot of Tri-X
    pushed to 1600ASA and infrared film for low light.

    Yes the B&W photography was an art in itself. I did not have the
    patience for that.




    I switched from Canon SLR's several years ago, I had a Canon TX, AE1, >>>>>>> A1, 650, and a 630.

    I had a chrome (cheaper) Canon FTb in college. I worked at the
    newspaper as a photographer. They had a decent selection of lenses >>>>>> that I could use.

    I remember the FTb, did it have a built in light meter? The TX had a >>>>> build in light meter buy was strictly manual past that. Then with my >>>>> all time favorite, the AE1 with the auto aperture exposure setting to >>>>> match the shutter speed. And that one was all black on a brass? body. >>>>>
    Yes, the FTb had the same open-lens TTL metering as the F1. There was
    a pin on the FD lenses that told the camera the maximum F-number of
    the lens. The previous generation, the TL, IIRC, used the FL lenses
    that didn't have the pin so was stop-down metering only. The FTb and
    F1 could also use the stop-down mode to see the depth of field.

    The A1 and AE1 were a generation after the FTb and F1. The A1 and AE1
    both shutter speed and aperture priority auto-exposure modes.

    No, actually the AE1 only had the shutter priority, When the A1 came out >>> with both shutter and aperture priority I traded up.

    The AE1 Program model still had Shutter priority but added AE with the
    camere in control of both the shutter and aperture, the user only
    focused and pushed the shutter button.

    There is a lot to forget in fifty years. I didn't have an AE1 or A2
    (or F1, for that matter). As a poor college student, the FTb was a
    mighty stretch.


    I believe all of Canon's SLRs had TTL metering.

    Fifteen years ago ebay had a bunch of *really* expensive Canon
    breech-lock lenses for sale for a penny or two on the dollar. I got >>>>>> some really fast telephotos and a couple of black FTbs but never
    really used them. Film and developing had already gotten to be a PITA. >>>>>
    I dabbled in processing slide film. I only liked to use slide film
    until my wife decided that I needed to shoot negative film and get prints.

    Kodachrome couldn't be processed outside the lab but Ectachrome could
    be done at home but it was a bit tricky.

    I developed a lot of Extcharome. I only needed to be in a dark room
    when loading the film into a light safe container. From there the
    kitchen sink was my lab. ;~)

    I used the stainless reels and bottom of those containers but using
    the light-safe feature was more than iffy. It took too long to get
    the developer and fixer in and out of the cap and it messed up the
    timing (didn't use the lids for B&W, either). I used a darkroom with
    even the outside lights turned off. It takes a mighty dark room to
    develop color film.


    My reels and containers were both plastic. I had no problems with
    quickly changing out the chemicals. IIRC there were a few more
    exchanges of chemicals than 2. Seems like there was a wash in there a
    time or two.

    Washes, yes, lotsa washes. The tanks we had wouldn't drain fast enough
    for us. The film would develop unevenly because the developer would
    wet the film and the wash wasn't complete.

    I for a short period used the Ektaflex color print contraption,
    developing prints in our spare bedroom. A REEEEL PIA.

    Yeah, printing was a PITA. No such thing as a safelight with color
    paper.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Wed Feb 23 21:35:45 2022
    On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 11:35:12 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 1:33:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 2/22/2022 9:09 PM, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:35:47 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 5:26 PM, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:43:48 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 12:11 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/21/2022 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:


    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.



    Still pretty strong. Prints of digital files are still pretty strong >> >>>>>> and there are plenty of stores offering this service.

    When digital first started I had no interest. Quality sucked. Can't >> >>>>> compete with my Olympus OM-2. Then one day, they got better.

    No way would I go back to film now and my printer makes great copies too
    with the right paper.


    I still prefer slow film over digital for quality. But that is too much >> >>>> trouble any more. I used to love working with ASA 25 and 64.

    I liked B&W photography. It took a lot of skill to do really good
    work. Color is easy. Contrast and texture are hard. I liked to use
    the Ilford 25ASA B&W for artsy stuff but also used a lot of Tri-X
    pushed to 1600ASA and infrared film for low light.

    Yes the B&W photography was an art in itself. I did not have the
    patience for that.




    I switched from Canon SLR's several years ago, I had a Canon TX, AE1, >> >>>> A1, 650, and a 630.

    I had a chrome (cheaper) Canon FTb in college. I worked at the
    newspaper as a photographer. They had a decent selection of lenses
    that I could use.

    I remember the FTb, did it have a built in light meter? The TX had a
    build in light meter buy was strictly manual past that. Then with my
    all time favorite, the AE1 with the auto aperture exposure setting to
    match the shutter speed. And that one was all black on a brass? body.

    Yes, the FTb had the same open-lens TTL metering as the F1. There was
    a pin on the FD lenses that told the camera the maximum F-number of
    the lens. The previous generation, the TL, IIRC, used the FL lenses
    that didn't have the pin so was stop-down metering only. The FTb and
    F1 could also use the stop-down mode to see the depth of field.

    The A1 and AE1 were a generation after the FTb and F1. The A1 and AE1
    both shutter speed and aperture priority auto-exposure modes.
    No, actually the AE1 only had the shutter priority, When the A1 came out
    with both shutter and aperture priority I traded up.

    The AE1 Program model still had Shutter priority but added AE with the
    camere in control of both the shutter and aperture, the user only
    focused and pushed the shutter button.

    I believe all of Canon's SLRs had TTL metering.

    Fifteen years ago ebay had a bunch of *really* expensive Canon
    breech-lock lenses for sale for a penny or two on the dollar. I got
    some really fast telephotos and a couple of black FTbs but never
    really used them. Film and developing had already gotten to be a PITA. >> >>
    I dabbled in processing slide film. I only liked to use slide film
    until my wife decided that I needed to shoot negative film and get prints.

    Kodachrome couldn't be processed outside the lab but Ectachrome could
    be done at home but it was a bit tricky.
    I developed a lot of Extcharome. I only needed to be in a dark room
    when loading the film into a light safe container. From there the
    kitchen sink was my lab. ;~)

    I really liked the lenses before auto-focus.

    The Canon micro-prism TTL focus and meter linked to the F-Stop were
    great. Friends preferred Nikon's split focus but it didn't work for
    me for some reason. Stop-down metering was a drag too.

    Yes, my TX had the 2 circles a split bulls eye and the prism circle
    around that. You could not miss focusing with that. I have to say that
    I don't recall what the view finder focus looked like on the AE1 and A1. >> >>
    The inner circle was the split *mumble* focus and the ring around it
    was a microprism focus. The meter measured the light in the focusing
    circle so it could be used as a spot meter.


    For what ever reason I went to a couple of Fuji upper end fixed lens
    digital and got great results for a digital camera.

    A few years back I decided to switch to a Nikon D500. With covid I have >> >>>> not had much od a chance of using it.
    BUT the auto-focus, lock on, and track a moving object, and a bunch of >> >>>> frames per second is pretty cool.

    I switched to Olympus but it was short lived. I carry my phone
    everywhere. A camera is a PITA to lug around. If I could marry the
    FD series lenses to a DSLR, it would change things. I'd be lugging
    20lbs of lenses around. ;-)

    LOL. Damn phones make every one look good with out knowing the
    mechanics. I don't miss the Domke back pack though.

    Everyone good or perhaps everyone equally bad. ;-) The camera in
    phones is better than can possibly be used.

    I have to be on a mission to carry the DSLR.

    I doubt my Olympus even works. I'm sure the batteries (NiCd) don't.

    Kodak (of course) had dark rooms available for employee use. I played around >a bit but never really got into it.

    The payment for being a photographer on the student paper was use of
    their darkroom after hours. We also got to cover concerts and sporting
    events, so really good, some not so.

    The dark rooms were in the same "rec" building that housed the 2000 seat >theatre, the bowling alleys and the swimming pool that was never filled. The >pool was built on the 6th floor. Just before it was to be filled, the engineers
    concluded that the building couldn't handle the weight of the water, so it was >abandoned - sort of. They eventually used the pool/space to dry sections of >the 18' x 60' Coloramas that were showcased in Grand Central station.

    I hope the architect and engineer got paid what they were worth.

    What sort of camera was used for those? 8x10 Land Cameras?

    I grew up in NYC and I remember the announcements each time a new Colorama >was installed. Even went to a few unveilings. Eventually, I ended working for the
    company that made them.

    https://medium.com/@Kodak/larger-than-life-kodaks-iconic-colorama-eecc5ba0193f

    SWMBO and I still catch a couple of shows a year at the theatre, now named Kodak
    Center. We just saw The Fab Four there earlier this month. If you like the Beatles, and
    these guys come to your town, you should go. They put on a really good show.

    https://www.jambase.com/band/the-fab-four

    The theatre is also the place where we'd go for the big division-wide meetings during
    the time when they were announcing their annual "restructuring plans" aka layoffs.
    From "See ya...Bye" to "Hello Hello".

    They just came by and gave us the letters. In a year we went from
    36,000 employees to 12,000 in the three Mid-Hudson sites. The big day
    became known as "Passover" and you could watch people, one by one,
    leave the building. If you made it to 5:00, you won the prize.

    Our department was spared because several large banks told the execs
    that if they got rid of the product we were working on they'd rip out
    all of their IBM equipment and put in Amdahls. We were a money loser
    otherwise. I had a transfer to the Burlington VT lab in hand so I
    knew I was safe beforehand.

    I got mine 15 years later. I was the only one to thank my manager.
    ;-)

    Did you see what I did there? ;-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to k...@notreal.com on Wed Feb 23 20:25:35 2022
    On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 9:35:53 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 11:35:12 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Wednesday, February 23, 2022 at 1:33:54 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 2/22/2022 9:09 PM, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:35:47 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 5:26 PM, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Mon, 21 Feb 2022 12:43:48 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/21/2022 12:11 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
    On 2/21/2022 11:13 AM, Leon wrote:


    Kodak had a little bit of a problem seeing the future also.



    Still pretty strong. Prints of digital files are still pretty strong
    and there are plenty of stores offering this service.

    When digital first started I had no interest. Quality sucked. Can't >> >>>>> compete with my Olympus OM-2. Then one day, they got better.

    No way would I go back to film now and my printer makes great copies too
    with the right paper.


    I still prefer slow film over digital for quality. But that is too much
    trouble any more. I used to love working with ASA 25 and 64.

    I liked B&W photography. It took a lot of skill to do really good
    work. Color is easy. Contrast and texture are hard. I liked to use
    the Ilford 25ASA B&W for artsy stuff but also used a lot of Tri-X
    pushed to 1600ASA and infrared film for low light.

    Yes the B&W photography was an art in itself. I did not have the
    patience for that.




    I switched from Canon SLR's several years ago, I had a Canon TX, AE1, >> >>>> A1, 650, and a 630.

    I had a chrome (cheaper) Canon FTb in college. I worked at the
    newspaper as a photographer. They had a decent selection of lenses
    that I could use.

    I remember the FTb, did it have a built in light meter? The TX had a
    build in light meter buy was strictly manual past that. Then with my
    all time favorite, the AE1 with the auto aperture exposure setting to >> >> match the shutter speed. And that one was all black on a brass? body. >> >>
    Yes, the FTb had the same open-lens TTL metering as the F1. There was
    a pin on the FD lenses that told the camera the maximum F-number of
    the lens. The previous generation, the TL, IIRC, used the FL lenses
    that didn't have the pin so was stop-down metering only. The FTb and
    F1 could also use the stop-down mode to see the depth of field.

    The A1 and AE1 were a generation after the FTb and F1. The A1 and AE1
    both shutter speed and aperture priority auto-exposure modes.
    No, actually the AE1 only had the shutter priority, When the A1 came out >> with both shutter and aperture priority I traded up.

    The AE1 Program model still had Shutter priority but added AE with the
    camere in control of both the shutter and aperture, the user only
    focused and pushed the shutter button.

    I believe all of Canon's SLRs had TTL metering.

    Fifteen years ago ebay had a bunch of *really* expensive Canon
    breech-lock lenses for sale for a penny or two on the dollar. I got
    some really fast telephotos and a couple of black FTbs but never
    really used them. Film and developing had already gotten to be a PITA. >> >>
    I dabbled in processing slide film. I only liked to use slide film
    until my wife decided that I needed to shoot negative film and get prints.

    Kodachrome couldn't be processed outside the lab but Ectachrome could
    be done at home but it was a bit tricky.
    I developed a lot of Extcharome. I only needed to be in a dark room
    when loading the film into a light safe container. From there the
    kitchen sink was my lab. ;~)

    I really liked the lenses before auto-focus.

    The Canon micro-prism TTL focus and meter linked to the F-Stop were
    great. Friends preferred Nikon's split focus but it didn't work for
    me for some reason. Stop-down metering was a drag too.

    Yes, my TX had the 2 circles a split bulls eye and the prism circle
    around that. You could not miss focusing with that. I have to say that >> >> I don't recall what the view finder focus looked like on the AE1 and A1.

    The inner circle was the split *mumble* focus and the ring around it
    was a microprism focus. The meter measured the light in the focusing
    circle so it could be used as a spot meter.


    For what ever reason I went to a couple of Fuji upper end fixed lens >> >>>> digital and got great results for a digital camera.

    A few years back I decided to switch to a Nikon D500. With covid I have
    not had much od a chance of using it.
    BUT the auto-focus, lock on, and track a moving object, and a bunch of
    frames per second is pretty cool.

    I switched to Olympus but it was short lived. I carry my phone
    everywhere. A camera is a PITA to lug around. If I could marry the
    FD series lenses to a DSLR, it would change things. I'd be lugging
    20lbs of lenses around. ;-)

    LOL. Damn phones make every one look good with out knowing the
    mechanics. I don't miss the Domke back pack though.

    Everyone good or perhaps everyone equally bad. ;-) The camera in
    phones is better than can possibly be used.

    I have to be on a mission to carry the DSLR.

    I doubt my Olympus even works. I'm sure the batteries (NiCd) don't.

    Kodak (of course) had dark rooms available for employee use. I played around >a bit but never really got into it.
    The payment for being a photographer on the student paper was use of
    their darkroom after hours. We also got to cover concerts and sporting events, so really good, some not so.
    The dark rooms were in the same "rec" building that housed the 2000 seat >theatre, the bowling alleys and the swimming pool that was never filled. The >pool was built on the 6th floor. Just before it was to be filled, the engineers
    concluded that the building couldn't handle the weight of the water, so it was
    abandoned - sort of. They eventually used the pool/space to dry sections of >the 18' x 60' Coloramas that were showcased in Grand Central station.
    I hope the architect and engineer got paid what they were worth.

    What sort of camera was used for those? 8x10 Land Cameras?

    I grew up in NYC and I remember the announcements each time a new Colorama >was installed. Even went to a few unveilings. Eventually, I ended working for the
    company that made them.

    https://medium.com/@Kodak/larger-than-life-kodaks-iconic-colorama-eecc5ba0193f

    SWMBO and I still catch a couple of shows a year at the theatre, now named Kodak
    Center. We just saw The Fab Four there earlier this month. If you like the Beatles, and
    these guys come to your town, you should go. They put on a really good show.

    https://www.jambase.com/band/the-fab-four

    The theatre is also the place where we'd go for the big division-wide meetings during
    the time when they were announcing their annual "restructuring plans" aka layoffs.
    From "See ya...Bye" to "Hello Hello".
    They just came by and gave us the letters.

    The big meetings were just the overview.

    "20% RIF here, 10% RIF there, You'll know your individual status by such and such
    a date."

    In the case of my division, when that date came, everyone was called into their manager's office, one by one. You knew your status as soon as you walked in. If there was a thin envelope on the table, you were safe. Basically a letter saying
    go back to work. If it was a thick envelope, you were done. It contained all the
    official separation paperwork.

    In a year we went from
    36,000 employees to 12,000 in the three Mid-Hudson sites. The big day
    became known as "Passover" and you could watch people, one by one,
    leave the building. If you made it to 5:00, you won the prize.

    Our department was spared because several large banks told the execs
    that if they got rid of the product we were working on they'd rip out
    all of their IBM equipment and put in Amdahls. We were a money loser otherwise. I had a transfer to the Burlington VT lab in hand so I
    knew I was safe beforehand.

    I got mine 15 years later. I was the only one to thank my manager.
    ;-)
    Did you see what I did there? ;-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Grossbohlin@21:1/5 to Leon on Thu Feb 24 13:30:04 2022
    "Leon" wrote in message
    news:v7WdnZODF8g3CYv_nZ2dnUU7-IOdnZ2d@giganews.com...

    On 2/23/2022 1:33 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 12:06:13 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    Have you priced a Snap-On or Mac tool box lately?

    No, I thought the money was better spend on a new truck. It was
    cheaper.

    Close enough! LOL. I swear some of the mechanics put a year or two salary >into their tools and boxes. But hey! The candy man delivers right to your >shop!

    When I was a kid I worked as a clerk in the sales office of a Ford
    dealership. I witnessed first hand how work was divvied out to the mechanics (as they were called back then). One example was an older guy named George
    who had what the owner described as "knuckle buster" tools. His bay was in a back corner and he was given a lot of crap, time consuming jobs on older vehicles, where it was difficult to make book time due to corrosion, broken bolts, and waiting on parts. The guys who bought stuff from the candy man
    had bays up front where access in and out of the shop was easy and they regularly got gravy jobs on newer vehicles. The investment in the big name stuff came back to those guys pretty quickly in the scheme of things...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to John Grossbohlin on Thu Feb 24 14:33:42 2022
    On 2/24/2022 12:30 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "Leon"  wrote in message news:v7WdnZODF8g3CYv_nZ2dnUU7-IOdnZ2d@giganews.com...

    On 2/23/2022 1:33 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 12:06:13 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    Have you priced a Snap-On or Mac tool box lately?

    No,  I thought the money was better spend on a new truck.  It was
    cheaper.

    Close enough!  LOL.  I swear some of the mechanics put a year or two
    salary into their tools and boxes.  But hey!  The candy man delivers
    right to your shop!

    When I was a kid I worked as a clerk in the sales office of a Ford dealership. I witnessed first hand how work was divvied out to the
    mechanics (as they were called back then).  One example was an older guy named George who had what the owner described as "knuckle buster" tools.
    His bay was in a back corner and he was given a lot of crap, time
    consuming jobs on older vehicles, where it was difficult to make book
    time due to corrosion, broken bolts, and waiting on parts. The guys who bought stuff from the candy man had bays up front where access in and
    out of the shop was easy and they regularly got gravy jobs on newer
    vehicles. The investment in the big name stuff came back to those guys
    pretty quickly in the scheme of things...


    When I had real jobs, 1995 and back, I was always in the automotive
    industry.

    I'll say that many mechanics mostly used Craftsman, S/K Wayne and a few
    other tools available from a local store. Snap-On was a fill in for
    what they could not find.

    Anyway, I am not sure that Snap-On, Mac, Cornwall tools are worth the
    added expense of convenience and or perceived quality.

    So when I was service sales manager we had about 45~50 technicians and
    location in the shop had no bearing on which jobs they got, that was
    left up to the dispatch computer.

    Some guys made more money with the off brand tools than the guys with
    Snap-On and the like tools.
    My top mechanic did in fact have the upper end tools but that was
    because he could actually afford them. He made about $10K per month and
    that was 40 years ago. He actually paid for his tools as the bought
    them. I believe all the rest, that bought the upper end stuff, financed
    every purchase through the tool dealer.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 24 15:57:09 2022
    On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 14:33:42 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/24/2022 12:30 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "Leon" wrote in message
    news:v7WdnZODF8g3CYv_nZ2dnUU7-IOdnZ2d@giganews.com...

    On 2/23/2022 1:33 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 12:06:13 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    Have you priced a Snap-On or Mac tool box lately?

    No, I thought the money was better spend on a new truck. It was
    cheaper.

    Close enough! LOL. I swear some of the mechanics put a year or two
    salary into their tools and boxes. But hey! The candy man delivers
    right to your shop!

    When I was a kid I worked as a clerk in the sales office of a Ford
    dealership. I witnessed first hand how work was divvied out to the
    mechanics (as they were called back then). One example was an older guy
    named George who had what the owner described as "knuckle buster" tools.
    His bay was in a back corner and he was given a lot of crap, time
    consuming jobs on older vehicles, where it was difficult to make book
    time due to corrosion, broken bolts, and waiting on parts. The guys who
    bought stuff from the candy man had bays up front where access in and
    out of the shop was easy and they regularly got gravy jobs on newer
    vehicles. The investment in the big name stuff came back to those guys
    pretty quickly in the scheme of things...


    When I had real jobs, 1995 and back, I was always in the automotive
    industry.

    I'll say that many mechanics mostly used Craftsman, S/K Wayne and a few
    other tools available from a local store. Snap-On was a fill in for
    what they could not find.

    Anyway, I am not sure that Snap-On, Mac, Cornwall tools are worth the
    added expense of convenience and or perceived quality.

    So when I was service sales manager we had about 45~50 technicians and >location in the shop had no bearing on which jobs they got, that was
    left up to the dispatch computer.

    Some guys made more money with the off brand tools than the guys with
    Snap-On and the like tools.
    My top mechanic did in fact have the upper end tools but that was
    because he could actually afford them. He made about $10K per month and
    that was 40 years ago. He actually paid for his tools as the bought
    them. I believe all the rest, that bought the upper end stuff, financed >every purchase through the tool dealer.

    Is that right? That seems awfully high for a mechanic at a car dealer
    in 1995

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Markem618@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 24 15:06:53 2022
    On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 15:57:09 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 14:33:42 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/24/2022 12:30 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "Leon" wrote in message
    news:v7WdnZODF8g3CYv_nZ2dnUU7-IOdnZ2d@giganews.com...

    On 2/23/2022 1:33 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 12:06:13 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    Have you priced a Snap-On or Mac tool box lately?

    No, I thought the money was better spend on a new truck. It was
    cheaper.

    Close enough! LOL. I swear some of the mechanics put a year or two
    salary into their tools and boxes. But hey! The candy man delivers
    right to your shop!

    When I was a kid I worked as a clerk in the sales office of a Ford
    dealership. I witnessed first hand how work was divvied out to the
    mechanics (as they were called back then). One example was an older guy >>> named George who had what the owner described as "knuckle buster" tools. >>> His bay was in a back corner and he was given a lot of crap, time
    consuming jobs on older vehicles, where it was difficult to make book
    time due to corrosion, broken bolts, and waiting on parts. The guys who
    bought stuff from the candy man had bays up front where access in and
    out of the shop was easy and they regularly got gravy jobs on newer
    vehicles. The investment in the big name stuff came back to those guys
    pretty quickly in the scheme of things...


    When I had real jobs, 1995 and back, I was always in the automotive >>industry.

    I'll say that many mechanics mostly used Craftsman, S/K Wayne and a few >>other tools available from a local store. Snap-On was a fill in for
    what they could not find.

    Anyway, I am not sure that Snap-On, Mac, Cornwall tools are worth the
    added expense of convenience and or perceived quality.

    So when I was service sales manager we had about 45~50 technicians and >>location in the shop had no bearing on which jobs they got, that was
    left up to the dispatch computer.

    Some guys made more money with the off brand tools than the guys with >>Snap-On and the like tools.
    My top mechanic did in fact have the upper end tools but that was
    because he could actually afford them. He made about $10K per month and >>that was 40 years ago. He actually paid for his tools as the bought
    them. I believe all the rest, that bought the upper end stuff, financed >>every purchase through the tool dealer.

    Is that right? That seems awfully high for a mechanic at a car dealer
    in 1995

    Joe Gwinn

    A friend worked at a Saab dealer, if he booked 120 hours in a week
    that was a slow week. But he also work real hours maybe 80 a week.
    Generally he booked the most hours in the shop. Getting paid for
    booked hours, versus time at the shop are totally different.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Markem618@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 24 16:42:51 2022
    On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 16:16:25 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/24/2022 3:06 PM, Markem618 wrote:
    On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 15:57:09 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 14:33:42 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/24/2022 12:30 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "Leon" wrote in message
    news:v7WdnZODF8g3CYv_nZ2dnUU7-IOdnZ2d@giganews.com...

    On 2/23/2022 1:33 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 12:06:13 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet> >>>>>>> wrote:

    Have you priced a Snap-On or Mac tool box lately?

    No, I thought the money was better spend on a new truck. It was >>>>>>> cheaper.

    Close enough! LOL. I swear some of the mechanics put a year or two >>>>>> salary into their tools and boxes. But hey! The candy man delivers >>>>>> right to your shop!

    When I was a kid I worked as a clerk in the sales office of a Ford
    dealership. I witnessed first hand how work was divvied out to the
    mechanics (as they were called back then). One example was an older guy >>>>> named George who had what the owner described as "knuckle buster" tools. >>>>> His bay was in a back corner and he was given a lot of crap, time
    consuming jobs on older vehicles, where it was difficult to make book >>>>> time due to corrosion, broken bolts, and waiting on parts. The guys who >>>>> bought stuff from the candy man had bays up front where access in and >>>>> out of the shop was easy and they regularly got gravy jobs on newer
    vehicles. The investment in the big name stuff came back to those guys >>>>> pretty quickly in the scheme of things...


    When I had real jobs, 1995 and back, I was always in the automotive
    industry.

    I'll say that many mechanics mostly used Craftsman, S/K Wayne and a few >>>> other tools available from a local store. Snap-On was a fill in for
    what they could not find.

    Anyway, I am not sure that Snap-On, Mac, Cornwall tools are worth the
    added expense of convenience and or perceived quality.

    So when I was service sales manager we had about 45~50 technicians and >>>> location in the shop had no bearing on which jobs they got, that was
    left up to the dispatch computer.

    Some guys made more money with the off brand tools than the guys with
    Snap-On and the like tools.
    My top mechanic did in fact have the upper end tools but that was
    because he could actually afford them. He made about $10K per month and >>>> that was 40 years ago. He actually paid for his tools as the bought
    them. I believe all the rest, that bought the upper end stuff, financed >>>> every purchase through the tool dealer.

    Is that right? That seems awfully high for a mechanic at a car dealer
    in 1995

    Joe Gwinn

    A friend worked at a Saab dealer, if he booked 120 hours in a week
    that was a slow week. But he also work real hours maybe 80 a week.
    Generally he booked the most hours in the shop. Getting paid for
    booked hours, versus time at the shop are totally different.




    To Joe, not 1995, 1983. I retired in 1995. Yes that was a LOT of
    money for a mechanic. His salary was more than the dealer's salary and
    I was reminded of that fact each month in our management meetings. Mr. >Menger told me to not let him get away.
    Greg, our front end guy, averaged over 150 hours per week flag time. He
    was almost a blur. And FWIW those hours were based on warranty book
    hours, not Motors or Chiltons book hours.
    Eventually we lost Greg but not to a competitor. He build his own new 6
    bay shop that he paid cash for.


    Markem, Greg was paid mid range in our pay scale, $15.00 per flagged
    hour. And the shop was open 55 hours, M~F only.

    I am proud to say that I taught Greg how to bust tires, dismount and
    mount. I had a service manager for that but I was the resident expert
    on tires.

    Chuck my friend start at Nikki Chevrolet, when he left the Saab
    Dealership he and his partner bought an existing shop. For cash as
    Greg did. Now he is in Glenwood Springs, he works some volunteer stuff
    for ski passes.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 24 16:16:25 2022
    On 2/24/2022 3:06 PM, Markem618 wrote:
    On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 15:57:09 -0500, Joe Gwinn <joegwinn@comcast.net>
    wrote:

    On Thu, 24 Feb 2022 14:33:42 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    On 2/24/2022 12:30 PM, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "Leon"  wrote in message
    news:v7WdnZODF8g3CYv_nZ2dnUU7-IOdnZ2d@giganews.com...

    On 2/23/2022 1:33 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:
    On Wed, 23 Feb 2022 12:06:13 -0600, Leon <lcb11211@swbelldotnet>
    wrote:

    Have you priced a Snap-On or Mac tool box lately?

    No,  I thought the money was better spend on a new truck.  It was >>>>>> cheaper.

    Close enough!  LOL.  I swear some of the mechanics put a year or two >>>>> salary into their tools and boxes.  But hey!  The candy man delivers >>>>> right to your shop!

    When I was a kid I worked as a clerk in the sales office of a Ford
    dealership. I witnessed first hand how work was divvied out to the
    mechanics (as they were called back then).  One example was an older guy >>>> named George who had what the owner described as "knuckle buster" tools. >>>> His bay was in a back corner and he was given a lot of crap, time
    consuming jobs on older vehicles, where it was difficult to make book
    time due to corrosion, broken bolts, and waiting on parts. The guys who >>>> bought stuff from the candy man had bays up front where access in and
    out of the shop was easy and they regularly got gravy jobs on newer
    vehicles. The investment in the big name stuff came back to those guys >>>> pretty quickly in the scheme of things...


    When I had real jobs, 1995 and back, I was always in the automotive
    industry.

    I'll say that many mechanics mostly used Craftsman, S/K Wayne and a few
    other tools available from a local store. Snap-On was a fill in for
    what they could not find.

    Anyway, I am not sure that Snap-On, Mac, Cornwall tools are worth the
    added expense of convenience and or perceived quality.

    So when I was service sales manager we had about 45~50 technicians and
    location in the shop had no bearing on which jobs they got, that was
    left up to the dispatch computer.

    Some guys made more money with the off brand tools than the guys with
    Snap-On and the like tools.
    My top mechanic did in fact have the upper end tools but that was
    because he could actually afford them. He made about $10K per month and >>> that was 40 years ago. He actually paid for his tools as the bought
    them. I believe all the rest, that bought the upper end stuff, financed >>> every purchase through the tool dealer.

    Is that right? That seems awfully high for a mechanic at a car dealer
    in 1995

    Joe Gwinn

    A friend worked at a Saab dealer, if he booked 120 hours in a week
    that was a slow week. But he also work real hours maybe 80 a week.
    Generally he booked the most hours in the shop. Getting paid for
    booked hours, versus time at the shop are totally different.




    To Joe, not 1995, 1983. I retired in 1995. Yes that was a LOT of
    money for a mechanic. His salary was more than the dealer's salary and
    I was reminded of that fact each month in our management meetings. Mr.
    Menger told me to not let him get away.
    Greg, our front end guy, averaged over 150 hours per week flag time. He
    was almost a blur. And FWIW those hours were based on warranty book
    hours, not Motors or Chiltons book hours.
    Eventually we lost Greg but not to a competitor. He build his own new 6
    bay shop that he paid cash for.


    Markem, Greg was paid mid range in our pay scale, $15.00 per flagged
    hour. And the shop was open 55 hours, M~F only.

    I am proud to say that I taught Greg how to bust tires, dismount and
    mount. I had a service manager for that but I was the resident expert
    on tires.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Markem618@21:1/5 to Ed Pawlowski on Sat Feb 26 18:42:56 2022
    On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 19:27:01 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 2/22/2022 6:35 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/21/2022 5:26 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:


    I still prefer slow film over digital for quality. But that is too much >>>> trouble any more. I used to love working with ASA 25 and 64.

    I liked B&W photography. It took a lot of skill to do really good
    work. Color is easy. Contrast and texture are hard. I liked to use
    the Ilford 25ASA B&W for artsy stuff but also used a lot of Tri-X
    pushed to 1600ASA and infrared film for low light.

    Yes the B&W photography was an art in itself. I did not have the
    patience for that.


    The darkroom was more fun than the actual picture taking. Similar to
    using a chisel and plane instead of a router.

    Still have an enlarger, contact printer, trays and a pack of real
    photo paper B&W. The chemical are long gone but still available.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 26 19:54:03 2022
    On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 18:42:56 -0600, Markem618 <markrm618@hotmail.com>
    wrote:

    On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 19:27:01 -0500, Ed Pawlowski <esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 2/22/2022 6:35 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/21/2022 5:26 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:


    I still prefer slow film over digital for quality. But that is too much >>>>> trouble any more. I used to love working with ASA 25 and 64.

    I liked B&W photography. It took a lot of skill to do really good
    work. Color is easy. Contrast and texture are hard. I liked to use
    the Ilford 25ASA B&W for artsy stuff but also used a lot of Tri-X
    pushed to 1600ASA and infrared film for low light.

    Yes the B&W photography was an art in itself. I did not have the
    patience for that.


    The darkroom was more fun than the actual picture taking. Similar to
    using a chisel and plane instead of a router.

    Printing for a newspaper is "different". The edges of prints can't be
    *black* or *white*. The edges have to be some shade of gray or the
    picture doesn't print right or there are no edges. It's done by using
    a paddle or a piece of cardboard waved in front of the paper to change
    the effective exposure time of parts of the print. The same is done
    for objects in the print that wash out. Black people are *really*
    difficult to photograph and make decent prints.

    Still have an enlarger, contact printer, trays and a pack of real
    photo paper B&W. The chemical are long gone but still available.

    I threw all of mine away recently. If it hasn't been used in a decade
    (or five) it's not needed and just taking space. I'm getting more
    ruthless in the "if it hasn't been used in ___ out it goes".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ed Pawlowski@21:1/5 to Leon on Sat Feb 26 19:27:01 2022
    On 2/22/2022 6:35 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/21/2022 5:26 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:


    I still prefer slow film over digital for quality.  But that is too much >>> trouble any more.  I used to love working with ASA 25 and 64.

    I liked B&W photography.  It took a lot of skill to do really good
    work.  Color is easy. Contrast and texture are hard.  I liked to use
    the Ilford 25ASA B&W for artsy stuff but also used a lot of Tri-X
    pushed to 1600ASA and infrared film for low light.

    Yes the B&W photography was an art in itself.  I did not have the
    patience for that.


    The darkroom was more fun than the actual picture taking. Similar to
    using a chisel and plane instead of a router.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Michael Trew@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 26 22:03:23 2022
    On 2/26/2022 19:42, Markem618 wrote:
    On Sat, 26 Feb 2022 19:27:01 -0500, Ed Pawlowski<esp@snet.xxx> wrote:

    On 2/22/2022 6:35 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 2/21/2022 5:26 PM, krw@notreal.com wrote:


    I still prefer slow film over digital for quality. But that is too much >>>>> trouble any more. I used to love working with ASA 25 and 64.

    I liked B&W photography. It took a lot of skill to do really good
    work. Color is easy. Contrast and texture are hard. I liked to use
    the Ilford 25ASA B&W for artsy stuff but also used a lot of Tri-X
    pushed to 1600ASA and infrared film for low light.

    Yes the B&W photography was an art in itself. I did not have the
    patience for that.


    The darkroom was more fun than the actual picture taking. Similar to
    using a chisel and plane instead of a router.

    Still have an enlarger, contact printer, trays and a pack of real
    photo paper B&W. The chemical are long gone but still available.

    I also have an old enlarger, which still has B&W negatives in it from
    the 1950's; girls wearing old hoop skirts. I picked it up at a
    yard-sale, and it's sitting in my booth at the antique mall with a price
    tag on it, reduced a couple of times now to $10. There doesn't seem to
    be any demand for it, as I've learned.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From John Grossbohlin@21:1/5 to Leon on Sun Feb 27 22:58:18 2022
    "Leon" wrote in message
    news:CZWdnXTSqrg1dor_nZ2dnUU7-QvNnZ2d@giganews.com...

    So when I was service sales manager we had about 45~50 technicians and >location in the shop had no bearing on which jobs they got, that was left
    up to the dispatch computer.

    There was definitely a pecking order where I worked... the dealership is on it's third owner since those days as the original founding owners retired
    and sold out. I have no idea what their processes are now, some 4 decades later.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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