• Re: Sticky Combination Squares

    From Sonny@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 21 15:09:50 2021
    Compared to my Empire, sliding the head(s) on the rule(s) is like trying to slide a rock up hill. There's way too much drag. I tried GlideCoat but it
    barely helped.

    If you haven't returned it, inspect it closely to see if there's a burr on the inside guide (notch thingy, is it?)... or maybe a sharp edge on/along the rule's valley.

    I have an older square (don't know the brand at the moment), the rule portion seems to rust easily and often. My newer square is ok.... for now.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 21 14:54:40 2021
    I've been using a combination square from Empire for years. Last month
    I was working with my daughter's boyfriend at her house and he said that
    he never used one of them before. (He works for his dad's concrete
    company. He's really handy, just doesn't do much precision work.)

    So I figured I'd get him a combination square for Christmas. Coincidentally, Lee Valley sent me an email for this set, so I bought one for him, and
    thinking that they might be a step up from my old Empire, I bought a set for myself.

    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/squares/74806-12-inch-and-6-combination-square-set?item=99W7555

    https://tinyurl.com/ComboSquares

    Compared to my Empire, sliding the head(s) on the rule(s) is like trying to slide a rock up hill. There's way too much drag. I tried GlideCoat but it
    barely helped.

    Just to be sure that it wasn't just because my Empire was all broken in, I ordered a $13 Empire from Amazon. It slides as smooth as butter and
    that's what I'm going to give him instead.

    They are probably both made in China, but I would have hoped that
    Lee Valley's items would be a little better from a usage perspective.
    Not in this case they aren't.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From hubops@ccanoemail.ca@21:1/5 to All on Tue Dec 21 18:21:30 2021
    On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 15:09:50 -0800 (PST), Sonny <cedarsonny@aol.com>
    wrote:


    Compared to my Empire, sliding the head(s) on the rule(s) is like trying to slide a rock up hill. There's way too much drag. I tried GlideCoat but it
    barely helped.

    If you haven't returned it, inspect it closely to see if there's a burr on the inside guide (notch thingy, is it?)... or maybe a sharp edge on/along the rule's valley.

    I have an older square (don't know the brand at the moment), the rule portion seems to rust easily and often. My newer square is ok.... for now.


    That was my first thought as well - sharp-edges at the slide points -
    that perhaps could be smoothed out ?
    The "special buy limited stock " description means that it's not
    from their regular product line - but it never hurts to give them
    a call - they might have a quick-fix from a previous complaint.
    John T.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to Sonny on Wed Dec 22 00:45:55 2021
    Sonny <cedarsonny@aol.com> writes:

    Compared to my Empire, sliding the head(s) on the rule(s) is like trying to slide a rock up hill. There's way too much drag. I tried GlideCoat but it
    barely helped.

    If you haven't returned it, inspect it closely to see if there's a burr on the inside guide (notch thingy, is it?)... or maybe a sharp edge on/along the rule's valley.

    There may be a spring in there which pulls the pawl that engages
    the slide against the edge of the guide.

    I'm not sure which Lee Valley combo square the OP was referring to,
    it looks like LV only sells Starret combination squares.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Sonny@21:1/5 to Scott Lurndal on Tue Dec 21 17:26:35 2021
    On Tuesday, December 21, 2021 at 6:45:58 PM UTC-6, Scott Lurndal wrote:

    I'm not sure which Lee Valley combo square the OP was referring to,
    it looks like LV only sells Starret combination squares.

    The boyfriend only gets the cheapy square. When he marries her, then he'll get the mo betta one.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Scott Lurndal on Tue Dec 21 20:24:00 2021
    On Tuesday, December 21, 2021 at 7:45:58 PM UTC-5, Scott Lurndal wrote:
    Sonny <cedar...@aol.com> writes:

    Compared to my Empire, sliding the head(s) on the rule(s) is like trying to slide a rock up hill. There's way too much drag. I tried GlideCoat but it
    barely helped.

    If you haven't returned it, inspect it closely to see if there's a burr on the inside guide (notch thingy, is it?)... or maybe a sharp edge on/along the rule's valley.

    There may be a spring in there which pulls the pawl that engages
    the slide against the edge of the guide.

    I'm not sure which Lee Valley combo square the OP was referring to,
    it looks like LV only sells Starret combination squares.

    I supplied the link in my OP.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Sonny on Tue Dec 21 20:39:42 2021
    On Tuesday, December 21, 2021 at 6:09:52 PM UTC-5, Sonny wrote:
    Compared to my Empire, sliding the head(s) on the rule(s) is like trying to slide a rock up hill. There's way too much drag. I tried GlideCoat but it
    barely helped.
    If you haven't returned it, inspect it closely to see if there's a burr on the inside guide (notch thingy, is it?)... or maybe a sharp edge on/along the rule's valley.

    I have an older square (don't know the brand at the moment), the rule portion seems to rust easily and often. My newer square is ok.... for now.

    There is no burr that I can see or feel. Both the 12" and the 6" square act the same way.

    Running my nail along the markings on the new ones vs. the Empires, it's clear that the
    markings on the new ones feel rougher. I wonder if the stamping caused raised edges.

    I'll look a little closer and see what I can tell.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 22 09:45:40 2021
    On 12/21/2021 4:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    I've been using a combination square from Empire for years. Last month
    I was working with my daughter's boyfriend at her house and he said that
    he never used one of them before. (He works for his dad's concrete
    company. He's really handy, just doesn't do much precision work.)

    So I figured I'd get him a combination square for Christmas. Coincidentally, Lee Valley sent me an email for this set, so I bought one for him, and thinking that they might be a step up from my old Empire, I bought a set for myself.

    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/squares/74806-12-inch-and-6-combination-square-set?item=99W7555

    https://tinyurl.com/ComboSquares

    Compared to my Empire, sliding the head(s) on the rule(s) is like trying to slide a rock up hill. There's way too much drag. I tried GlideCoat but it
    barely helped.

    Just to be sure that it wasn't just because my Empire was all broken in, I ordered a $13 Empire from Amazon. It slides as smooth as butter and
    that's what I'm going to give him instead.

    They are probably both made in China, but I would have hoped that
    Lee Valley's items would be a little better from a usage perspective.
    Not in this case they aren't.

    As Scott has mentioned, if the nut, that is loosened to allow the rule
    to slide,is spring loaded, try loosening the nut and pushing it toward
    the rule. While the nut is loose, the bolt that grabs the rule may
    still be under tension from the spring.

    FWIW I have a Woodpeckers indexable combination square and I have to
    push in on the nut, after loosening it, to slide the rule.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Leon on Wed Dec 22 09:53:41 2021
    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 10:45:48 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 12/21/2021 4:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    I've been using a combination square from Empire for years. Last month
    I was working with my daughter's boyfriend at her house and he said that
    he never used one of them before. (He works for his dad's concrete
    company. He's really handy, just doesn't do much precision work.)

    So I figured I'd get him a combination square for Christmas. Coincidentally,
    Lee Valley sent me an email for this set, so I bought one for him, and thinking that they might be a step up from my old Empire, I bought a set for
    myself.

    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/squares/74806-12-inch-and-6-combination-square-set?item=99W7555

    https://tinyurl.com/ComboSquares

    Compared to my Empire, sliding the head(s) on the rule(s) is like trying to slide a rock up hill. There's way too much drag. I tried GlideCoat but it
    barely helped.

    Just to be sure that it wasn't just because my Empire was all broken in, I ordered a $13 Empire from Amazon. It slides as smooth as butter and
    that's what I'm going to give him instead.

    They are probably both made in China, but I would have hoped that
    Lee Valley's items would be a little better from a usage perspective.
    Not in this case they aren't.
    As Scott has mentioned, if the nut, that is loosened to allow the rule
    to slide,is spring loaded, try loosening the nut and pushing it toward
    the rule. While the nut is loose, the bolt that grabs the rule may
    still be under tension from the spring.


    Yes, the nut is spring loaded. Every combination square I've ever had had
    a spring loaded nut.

    I just tested my Empires against the two from Lee Valley. On the Empires, the rules slide easily with the slightest loosening of the nut. On the LV units, there
    is substantial drag. Pushing up on the nut on all units does make all of them slide easier, but the relative difference between the Empires and the LV's is still
    present. IOW, on the Empires (both the old and new one) there is no need to push
    up on the nut to get an easy slide, but a somewhat higher, but not needed, level
    of ease can be obtained by pushing up on the nut.

    In order to get the LV rules to slide even close to as easy as the Empires, I have to loosen the nuts to point where the rule is flopping around in the head *and* then push up on the nut. That is not something I would want to do as a everyday practice.

    FWIW I have a Woodpeckers indexable combination square and I have to
    push in on the nut, after loosening it, to slide the rule.

    Could that be due to the indexing feature? How does the indexing feature work? I assume it somehow locks into the stampings, correct?

    Do you have other combo squares that don't require pushing up on the nut?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Wed Dec 22 14:29:01 2021
    On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 09:53:41 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 10:45:48 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 12/21/2021 4:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    I've been using a combination square from Empire for years. Last month
    I was working with my daughter's boyfriend at her house and he said that >> > he never used one of them before. (He works for his dad's concrete
    company. He's really handy, just doesn't do much precision work.)

    So I figured I'd get him a combination square for Christmas. Coincidentally,
    Lee Valley sent me an email for this set, so I bought one for him, and
    thinking that they might be a step up from my old Empire, I bought a set for
    myself.

    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/squares/74806-12-inch-and-6-combination-square-set?item=99W7555

    https://tinyurl.com/ComboSquares

    Compared to my Empire, sliding the head(s) on the rule(s) is like trying to slide a rock up hill. There's way too much drag. I tried GlideCoat but it
    barely helped.

    Just to be sure that it wasn't just because my Empire was all broken in, I >> > ordered a $13 Empire from Amazon. It slides as smooth as butter and
    that's what I'm going to give him instead.

    They are probably both made in China, but I would have hoped that
    Lee Valley's items would be a little better from a usage perspective.
    Not in this case they aren't.
    As Scott has mentioned, if the nut, that is loosened to allow the rule
    to slide,is spring loaded, try loosening the nut and pushing it toward
    the rule. While the nut is loose, the bolt that grabs the rule may
    still be under tension from the spring.


    Yes, the nut is spring loaded. Every combination square I've ever had had
    a spring loaded nut.

    I just tested my Empires against the two from Lee Valley. On the Empires, the >rules slide easily with the slightest loosening of the nut. On the LV units, there
    is substantial drag. Pushing up on the nut on all units does make all of them >slide easier, but the relative difference between the Empires and the LV's is still
    present. IOW, on the Empires (both the old and new one) there is no need to push
    up on the nut to get an easy slide, but a somewhat higher, but not needed, level
    of ease can be obtained by pushing up on the nut.

    In order to get the LV rules to slide even close to as easy as the Empires, I >have to loosen the nuts to point where the rule is flopping around in the head >*and* then push up on the nut. That is not something I would want to do as a >everyday practice.

    FWIW I have a Woodpeckers indexable combination square and I have to
    push in on the nut, after loosening it, to slide the rule.

    Could that be due to the indexing feature? How does the indexing feature work? >I assume it somehow locks into the stampings, correct?

    Do you have other combo squares that don't require pushing up on the nut?

    The grove in the ruler needs to be stoned or lapped or ground smooth.

    After the fact, make a tool that fits the groove of brass, smear it
    with some fine (water-based) valve-grinding compound, work the groove
    over a bit, and wash it out with hot water to remove the grit.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Wed Dec 22 14:59:37 2021
    On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 09:53:41 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 10:45:48 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 12/21/2021 4:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    I've been using a combination square from Empire for years. Last month
    I was working with my daughter's boyfriend at her house and he said that >> > he never used one of them before. (He works for his dad's concrete
    company. He's really handy, just doesn't do much precision work.)

    So I figured I'd get him a combination square for Christmas. Coincidentally,
    Lee Valley sent me an email for this set, so I bought one for him, and
    thinking that they might be a step up from my old Empire, I bought a set for
    myself.

    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/squares/74806-12-inch-and-6-combination-square-set?item=99W7555

    https://tinyurl.com/ComboSquares

    Compared to my Empire, sliding the head(s) on the rule(s) is like trying to slide a rock up hill. There's way too much drag. I tried GlideCoat but it
    barely helped.

    Just to be sure that it wasn't just because my Empire was all broken in, I >> > ordered a $13 Empire from Amazon. It slides as smooth as butter and
    that's what I'm going to give him instead.

    They are probably both made in China, but I would have hoped that
    Lee Valley's items would be a little better from a usage perspective.
    Not in this case they aren't.
    As Scott has mentioned, if the nut, that is loosened to allow the rule
    to slide,is spring loaded, try loosening the nut and pushing it toward
    the rule. While the nut is loose, the bolt that grabs the rule may
    still be under tension from the spring.


    Yes, the nut is spring loaded. Every combination square I've ever had had
    a spring loaded nut.

    I thought this was an interesting take on the combination square. I
    saw one from someone else but this is all I could find with a quick
    search.

    <https://www.amazon.com/Kapro-325M-Magnetic-Combination-12-Inch/dp/B000N6MS9M/ref=sr_1_2?crid=2G9WNCO7ABW2Z&keywords=magnetic+combination+square&qid=1640202794&sprefix=magnetic+combination+square%2Caps%2C96&sr=8-2>

    I just tested my Empires against the two from Lee Valley. On the Empires, the >rules slide easily with the slightest loosening of the nut. On the LV units, there
    is substantial drag. Pushing up on the nut on all units does make all of them >slide easier, but the relative difference between the Empires and the LV's is still
    present. IOW, on the Empires (both the old and new one) there is no need to push
    up on the nut to get an easy slide, but a somewhat higher, but not needed, level
    of ease can be obtained by pushing up on the nut.

    In order to get the LV rules to slide even close to as easy as the Empires, I >have to loosen the nuts to point where the rule is flopping around in the head >*and* then push up on the nut. That is not something I would want to do as a >everyday practice.

    FWIW I have a Woodpeckers indexable combination square and I have to
    push in on the nut, after loosening it, to slide the rule.

    Could that be due to the indexing feature? How does the indexing feature work? >I assume it somehow locks into the stampings, correct?

    Do you have other combo squares that don't require pushing up on the nut?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Joe Gwinn on Wed Dec 22 14:10:16 2021
    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 2:29:10 PM UTC-5, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 09:53:41 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 10:45:48 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 12/21/2021 4:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    I've been using a combination square from Empire for years. Last month >> > I was working with my daughter's boyfriend at her house and he said that >> > he never used one of them before. (He works for his dad's concrete
    company. He's really handy, just doesn't do much precision work.)

    So I figured I'd get him a combination square for Christmas. Coincidentally,
    Lee Valley sent me an email for this set, so I bought one for him, and >> > thinking that they might be a step up from my old Empire, I bought a set for
    myself.

    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/squares/74806-12-inch-and-6-combination-square-set?item=99W7555

    https://tinyurl.com/ComboSquares

    Compared to my Empire, sliding the head(s) on the rule(s) is like trying to slide a rock up hill. There's way too much drag. I tried GlideCoat but it
    barely helped.

    Just to be sure that it wasn't just because my Empire was all broken in, I
    ordered a $13 Empire from Amazon. It slides as smooth as butter and
    that's what I'm going to give him instead.

    They are probably both made in China, but I would have hoped that
    Lee Valley's items would be a little better from a usage perspective.
    Not in this case they aren't.
    As Scott has mentioned, if the nut, that is loosened to allow the rule
    to slide,is spring loaded, try loosening the nut and pushing it toward
    the rule. While the nut is loose, the bolt that grabs the rule may
    still be under tension from the spring.


    Yes, the nut is spring loaded. Every combination square I've ever had had
    a spring loaded nut.

    I just tested my Empires against the two from Lee Valley. On the Empires, the
    rules slide easily with the slightest loosening of the nut. On the LV units, there
    is substantial drag. Pushing up on the nut on all units does make all of them
    slide easier, but the relative difference between the Empires and the LV's is still
    present. IOW, on the Empires (both the old and new one) there is no need to push
    up on the nut to get an easy slide, but a somewhat higher, but not needed, level
    of ease can be obtained by pushing up on the nut.

    In order to get the LV rules to slide even close to as easy as the Empires, I
    have to loosen the nuts to point where the rule is flopping around in the head
    *and* then push up on the nut. That is not something I would want to do as a >everyday practice.

    FWIW I have a Woodpeckers indexable combination square and I have to
    push in on the nut, after loosening it, to slide the rule.

    Could that be due to the indexing feature? How does the indexing feature work?
    I assume it somehow locks into the stampings, correct?

    Do you have other combo squares that don't require pushing up on the nut? The grove in the ruler needs to be stoned or lapped or ground smooth.

    After the fact, make a tool that fits the groove of brass, smear it
    with some fine (water-based) valve-grinding compound, work the groove
    over a bit, and wash it out with hot water to remove the grit.

    Joe Gwinn

    ...or download an RMA from LV and get a refund.

    I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works
    right away.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Joe Gwinn@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Wed Dec 22 19:00:16 2021
    On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 14:10:16 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 2:29:10 PM UTC-5, Joe Gwinn wrote:
    On Wed, 22 Dec 2021 09:53:41 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 10:45:48 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 12/21/2021 4:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    I've been using a combination square from Empire for years. Last month >> >> > I was working with my daughter's boyfriend at her house and he said that
    he never used one of them before. (He works for his dad's concrete
    company. He's really handy, just doesn't do much precision work.)

    So I figured I'd get him a combination square for Christmas. Coincidentally,
    Lee Valley sent me an email for this set, so I bought one for him, and >> >> > thinking that they might be a step up from my old Empire, I bought a set for
    myself.

    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/squares/74806-12-inch-and-6-combination-square-set?item=99W7555

    https://tinyurl.com/ComboSquares

    Compared to my Empire, sliding the head(s) on the rule(s) is like trying to slide a rock up hill. There's way too much drag. I tried GlideCoat but it
    barely helped.

    Just to be sure that it wasn't just because my Empire was all broken in, I
    ordered a $13 Empire from Amazon. It slides as smooth as butter and
    that's what I'm going to give him instead.

    They are probably both made in China, but I would have hoped that
    Lee Valley's items would be a little better from a usage perspective. >> >> > Not in this case they aren't.
    As Scott has mentioned, if the nut, that is loosened to allow the rule
    to slide,is spring loaded, try loosening the nut and pushing it toward
    the rule. While the nut is loose, the bolt that grabs the rule may
    still be under tension from the spring.


    Yes, the nut is spring loaded. Every combination square I've ever had had >> >a spring loaded nut.

    I just tested my Empires against the two from Lee Valley. On the Empires, the
    rules slide easily with the slightest loosening of the nut. On the LV units, there
    is substantial drag. Pushing up on the nut on all units does make all of them
    slide easier, but the relative difference between the Empires and the LV's is still
    present. IOW, on the Empires (both the old and new one) there is no need to push
    up on the nut to get an easy slide, but a somewhat higher, but not needed, level
    of ease can be obtained by pushing up on the nut.

    In order to get the LV rules to slide even close to as easy as the Empires, I
    have to loosen the nuts to point where the rule is flopping around in the head
    *and* then push up on the nut. That is not something I would want to do as a
    everyday practice.

    FWIW I have a Woodpeckers indexable combination square and I have to
    push in on the nut, after loosening it, to slide the rule.

    Could that be due to the indexing feature? How does the indexing feature work?
    I assume it somehow locks into the stampings, correct?

    Do you have other combo squares that don't require pushing up on the nut? >> The grove in the ruler needs to be stoned or lapped or ground smooth.

    After the fact, make a tool that fits the groove of brass, smear it
    with some fine (water-based) valve-grinding compound, work the groove
    over a bit, and wash it out with hot water to remove the grit.

    Joe Gwinn

    ...or download an RMA from LV and get a refund.

    I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works
    right away.

    Sure. Nor does it hurt to know precisely what they forgot to do.

    I buy and fix lots of old stuff, for the saving as well as the
    history.

    Joe Gwinn

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Grossbohlin@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 22 23:21:08 2021
    "DerbyDad03" wrote in message news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7-977d-f508c4789c84n@googlegroups.com...

    I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works
    right away.

    Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)

    Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the clamp
    screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it passes.
    It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the hole
    and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole could
    help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a Starrett.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to John Grossbohlin on Thu Dec 23 09:08:58 2021
    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
    news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
    I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works >right away.
    Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)

    Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the clamp screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it passes.
    It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the hole and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole could
    help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a Starrett.

    Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a
    $90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?

    I don't need metric, I don't need 1/64". The Empire (1/8", 1/16", 1/32") has served
    me well for I don't know how long (over a decade, at least). AFAIK, I've never been
    bit by the Empire, so what does the extra cost get me?

    I've still got time before Christmas. ;-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Thu Dec 23 13:29:16 2021
    On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 09:08:58 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote: >> "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
    news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
    I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works
    right away.
    Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)

    Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the clamp
    screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it passes. >> It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the hole >> and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole could
    help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a Starrett.

    Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a >$90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?

    I don't need metric, I don't need 1/64". The Empire (1/8", 1/16", 1/32") has served
    me well for I don't know how long (over a decade, at least). AFAIK, I've never been
    bit by the Empire, so what does the extra cost get me?

    I thought the point was that you wanted another decent square to give
    your future SIL.

    I've still got time before Christmas. ;-)

    Exactly, but not much. There's probably a BORG near. They carry
    Empire and sell sandpaper and steel wool. Seems you're all set. ;-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to k...@notreal.com on Thu Dec 23 11:51:59 2021
    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 1:29:22 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 09:08:58 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
    news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
    I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works
    right away.
    Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)

    Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the clamp >> screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it passes. >> It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the hole
    and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole could >> help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a Starrett.

    Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a >$90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?

    I don't need metric, I don't need 1/64". The Empire (1/8", 1/16", 1/32") has served
    me well for I don't know how long (over a decade, at least). AFAIK, I've never been
    bit by the Empire, so what does the extra cost get me?

    I thought the point was that you wanted another decent square to give
    your future SIL.

    Don't know if he's a keeper. Not really up to me.

    I already had an Empire sent to my daughter. It's wrapped and under her tree.

    I've still got time before Christmas. ;-)
    Exactly, but not much. There's probably a BORG near. They carry
    Empire and sell sandpaper and steel wool. Seems you're all set. ;-)

    Yes, I'm all set, but I'm still interested in knowing what an extra $75 gets me.
    In my experience, the Empire is more than "decent".

    If convinced that he needs a $90 combo square, I can always tell my daughter
    to pull the Empire out from under the tree and replace it with a card that says:

    Your gift is on it's way. It's inside one of those blue things here:

    https://i.imgur.com/pLpkzwO.jpg

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Thu Dec 23 15:27:44 2021
    On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 11:51:59 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 1:29:22 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 09:08:58 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
    news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
    I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works >> >> >right away.
    Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)

    Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the clamp >> >> screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it passes.
    It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the hole
    and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole could >> >> help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a Starrett.

    Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a >> >$90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?

    I don't need metric, I don't need 1/64". The Empire (1/8", 1/16", 1/32") has served
    me well for I don't know how long (over a decade, at least). AFAIK, I've never been
    bit by the Empire, so what does the extra cost get me?

    I thought the point was that you wanted another decent square to give
    your future SIL.

    Don't know if he's a keeper. Not really up to me.

    I already had an Empire sent to my daughter. It's wrapped and under her tree.

    I've still got time before Christmas. ;-)
    Exactly, but not much. There's probably a BORG near. They carry
    Empire and sell sandpaper and steel wool. Seems you're all set. ;-)

    Yes, I'm all set, but I'm still interested in knowing what an extra $75 gets me.
    In my experience, the Empire is more than "decent".

    If convinced that he needs a $90 combo square, I can always tell my daughter >to pull the Empire out from under the tree and replace it with a card that says:

    Your gift is on it's way. It's inside one of those blue things here:

    https://i.imgur.com/pLpkzwO.jpg

    Four from the bow, three from the port, four down.

    At least the red things Leon was talking about wouldn't be on a
    container ship anywhere. Though, central Ohio is a long way from
    anywhere.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Markem618@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Thu Dec 23 15:10:08 2021
    On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 11:51:59 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 1:29:22 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 09:08:58 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
    news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
    I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works >> >> >right away.
    Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)

    Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the clamp >> >> screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it passes.
    It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the hole
    and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole could >> >> help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a Starrett.

    Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a >> >$90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?

    I don't need metric, I don't need 1/64". The Empire (1/8", 1/16", 1/32") has served
    me well for I don't know how long (over a decade, at least). AFAIK, I've never been
    bit by the Empire, so what does the extra cost get me?

    I thought the point was that you wanted another decent square to give
    your future SIL.

    Don't know if he's a keeper. Not really up to me.

    I already had an Empire sent to my daughter. It's wrapped and under her tree.

    I've still got time before Christmas. ;-)
    Exactly, but not much. There's probably a BORG near. They carry
    Empire and sell sandpaper and steel wool. Seems you're all set. ;-)

    Yes, I'm all set, but I'm still interested in knowing what an extra $75 gets me.
    In my experience, the Empire is more than "decent".

    If convinced that he needs a $90 combo square, I can always tell my daughter >to pull the Empire out from under the tree and replace it with a card that says:

    Your gift is on it's way. It's inside one of those blue things here:

    https://i.imgur.com/pLpkzwO.jpg

    I do not think that quality control should cost $75.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Grossbohlin@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 23 17:08:16 2021
    "DerbyDad03" wrote in message news:18a1c708-d638-4f0c-9873-35e6fcc8dcfen@googlegroups.com...

    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin
    wrote:
    "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
    news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
    I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works
    right away.
    Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)

    Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the clamp
    screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it
    passes.
    It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the
    hole
    and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole could
    help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a
    Starrett.

    Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a >$90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?

    I don't need metric, I don't need 1/64". The Empire (1/8", 1/16", 1/32")
    has served
    me well for I don't know how long (over a decade, at least). AFAIK, I've >never been
    bit by the Empire, so what does the extra cost get me?

    I've still got time before Christmas. ;-)

    Smoothness right out of the box. Easy to read scales. Dead accurate for
    machine set up (e.g., blade stops/fence stops/tilting bed stops, etc.).
    It's kind of like using a L-N plane vs. a new Stanley plane... you see and
    feel the difference.

    They make them with scales in 64ths and they have what they call "quick reading" 32nds and 64ths.

    Do you absolutely need something this fine for woodworking itself? No, not really, a decent wooden try square and dividers or a compass could
    substitute. After 40+ years the decent one I got for Christmas as a kid was pretty well shot--my father was a journeyman tool a die maker in the '50s
    and '60s so it made sense to him to get me a decent one. I had the money so
    I got the Starrett maybe 10-12 years ago. The old one resides in my
    carpentry tool box as it still has utility for carpentry when used with a pencil. The Starrett resides in my shop's precision tool drawer with
    calibers, dial gauges, etc. and is used for metal and woodworking and tool
    set ups.

    P.S., It doesn't hurt to treat yourself occasionally. Back in the '80s I did
    a 3.5 month solo bicycle trip all over the east coast. While in FL I met a
    lot of middle aged and older people who were curious about my loaded down bicycle and what I was doing. I heard a lot of stories that started out with
    "I always wanted to..." None of those desires were carried out by the story tellers and there was disappointment in a lot of voices. It gave me a different perspective on life than I would have had otherwise. You need to
    take care of yourself.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 23 16:17:07 2021
    On 12/23/2021 2:51 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

    Yes, I'm all set, but I'm still interested in knowing what an extra $75 gets me.
    In my experience, the Empire is more than "decent".

    You write that as though they are all the same. %-)

    To add value you could "certify/validate" it yourself before you wrap
    it. I think that would provide a nice personal touch. I would do so
    anyway before I relied upon it. If you do so, please let us know what
    you discover (for both of yours). I am pretty sure that they will be
    more than fine for most applications in woodworking.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From J. Clarke@21:1/5 to Bill on Thu Dec 23 17:54:18 2021
    On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 16:17:07 -0500, Bill <nonegiven@att.net> wrote:

    On 12/23/2021 2:51 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

    Yes, I'm all set, but I'm still interested in knowing what an extra $75 gets me.
    In my experience, the Empire is more than "decent".

    You write that as though they are all the same. %-)

    To add value you could "certify/validate" it yourself before you wrap
    it. I think that would provide a nice personal touch. I would do so
    anyway before I relied upon it. If you do so, please let us know what
    you discover (for both of yours). I am pretty sure that they will be
    more than fine for most applications in woodworking.

    FWIW, I thought Empire was OK too. Made some small boxes. Was a bit
    annoyed that the sides didn't meet. After much investigation I found
    that my Empire combo square wasn't quite square. Cleaned everything,
    it was now square, made more boxes, still didn't come out square. More investigating and it turned out that there was enough slop in it that
    it was square sometimes and not others. I don't know if it was wear
    or a manufacturing defect. I supposed I could have reworked it but
    life is short.

    Got a Starrett. End of problem.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Bill on Thu Dec 23 14:35:13 2021
    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 4:17:10 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
    On 12/23/2021 2:51 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

    Yes, I'm all set, but I'm still interested in knowing what an extra $75 gets me.
    In my experience, the Empire is more than "decent".
    You write that as though they are all the same. %-)

    You write that as though you haven't read any of my other posts in this
    thread. %-)

    I've already posted about the differences between the Empires and the
    set from Lee Valley. That's what started this thread. I know that they
    aren't all the same.

    What I've asked (twice) is "What is the difference between a $14 Empire
    and $90+ Starrett combo squares?" Haven't seen that answer yet.


    To add value you could "certify/validate" it yourself before you wrap
    it. I think that would provide a nice personal touch. I would do so
    anyway before I relied upon it.

    As previously stated, I have already "certified/validated" that the Empires, both my old one (decades old) and a recently purchased one (last week)
    slide much easier than the set from Lee Valley.

    If you do so, please let us know what you discover (for both of yours).

    Done and done.

    I am pretty sure that they will be more than fine for most applications
    in woodworking.

    "Fine" yes, but since one brand is much easier to use than the other, that's the one I'll use and that's the one I'll give.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to John Grossbohlin on Thu Dec 23 14:58:24 2021
    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:08:26 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
    news:18a1c708-d638-4f0c...@googlegroups.com...
    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin >wrote:
    "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
    news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
    I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works
    right away.
    Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)

    Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the clamp >> screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it
    passes.
    It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the
    hole
    and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole could >> help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a
    Starrett.

    Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a >$90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?

    I don't need metric, I don't need 1/64". The Empire (1/8", 1/16", 1/32") >has served
    me well for I don't know how long (over a decade, at least). AFAIK, I've >never been
    bit by the Empire, so what does the extra cost get me?

    I've still got time before Christmas. ;-)

    Thanks for answering my question.

    Smoothness right out of the box. Easy to read scales.

    As are the $14 Empires.

    Dead accurate for
    machine set up (e.g., blade stops/fence stops/tilting bed stops, etc.).
    It's kind of like using a L-N plane vs. a new Stanley plane... you see and feel the difference.

    I can't say that the Empires *aren't* but they certainly haven't caused me any issues over the years. Granted, I have not compared them to a Starrett, but
    the Empires have never made me say "Why doesn't this measurement seem
    to work out?"


    They make them with scales in 64ths and they have what they call "quick reading" 32nds and 64ths.

    I've never needed 64ths in a combo square, splitting a 32nds has work well enough for me on the rare occasions I've needed to go to that level of accuracy.

    What is a "quick reading" 32nd or 64th? Do I have to move my eyes faster? ;-)


    Do you absolutely need something this fine for woodworking itself? No, not really, a decent wooden try square and dividers or a compass could substitute. After 40+ years the decent one I got for Christmas as a kid was pretty well shot--my father was a journeyman tool a die maker in the '50s
    and '60s so it made sense to him to get me a decent one. I had the money so
    I got the Starrett maybe 10-12 years ago. The old one resides in my
    carpentry tool box as it still has utility for carpentry when used with a pencil. The Starrett resides in my shop's precision tool drawer with calibers, dial gauges, etc. and is used for metal and woodworking and tool set ups.

    P.S., It doesn't hurt to treat yourself occasionally.

    I treat myself quite frequently. That's why I'm paying $800+ to rent a house this weekend instead of $400-ish for a kitchen-equipped suite at a Marriott or Hilton.

    Back in the '80s I did
    a 3.5 month solo bicycle trip all over the east coast. While in FL I met a lot of middle aged and older people who were curious about my loaded down bicycle and what I was doing. I heard a lot of stories that started out with "I always wanted to..." None of those desires were carried out by the story tellers and there was disappointment in a lot of voices. It gave me a different perspective on life than I would have had otherwise. You need to take care of yourself.

    While I haven't done *everything* I've said I wanted to do (has anyone?) I've done
    enough that I could die tonight with no regrets.

    Well, there might be one. I've never flown in a helicopter. I've flown in all manner of
    passenger planes, Piper Cubs types in Alaska, the belly of military cargo planes and
    even the Goodyear Blimp. Just haven't done the helicopter thing yet. I could do the
    "tourist thing" at any time, but I'm kind of waiting for that one-off, like running into
    someone who owns their own or has access to a company helicopter so I can go
    up "privately" if you know what I mean.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to J. Clarke on Thu Dec 23 15:06:51 2021
    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:54:22 PM UTC-5, J. Clarke wrote:
    On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 16:17:07 -0500, Bill <none...@att.net> wrote:

    On 12/23/2021 2:51 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

    Yes, I'm all set, but I'm still interested in knowing what an extra $75 gets me.
    In my experience, the Empire is more than "decent".

    You write that as though they are all the same. %-)

    To add value you could "certify/validate" it yourself before you wrap
    it. I think that would provide a nice personal touch. I would do so
    anyway before I relied upon it. If you do so, please let us know what
    you discover (for both of yours). I am pretty sure that they will be
    more than fine for most applications in woodworking.
    FWIW, I thought Empire was OK too. Made some small boxes. Was a bit
    annoyed that the sides didn't meet. After much investigation I found
    that my Empire combo square wasn't quite square. Cleaned everything,
    it was now square, made more boxes, still didn't come out square. More investigating and it turned out that there was enough slop in it that
    it was square sometimes and not others. I don't know if it was wear
    or a manufacturing defect. I supposed I could have reworked it but
    life is short.

    Got a Starrett. End of problem.

    I have set of machinists squares. Both my old and new Empires appear to be
    dead on. The Lee Valley set does as well.

    You can be sure that I've dropped my old Empire more than a few times over
    the years, but it still reads square.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 23 19:10:02 2021
    On 12/23/2021 11:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
    news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
    I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works
    right away.
    Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)

    Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the clamp
    screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it passes. >> It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the hole >> and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole could
    help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a Starrett.

    Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a $90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?

    Longevity of accuracy.



    I don't need metric, I don't need 1/64". The Empire (1/8", 1/16", 1/32") has served
    me well for I don't know how long (over a decade, at least). AFAIK, I've never been
    bit by the Empire, so what does the extra cost get me?

    I've still got time before Christmas. ;-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Thu Dec 23 19:57:36 2021
    On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 14:35:13 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 4:17:10 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
    On 12/23/2021 2:51 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

    Yes, I'm all set, but I'm still interested in knowing what an extra $75 gets me.
    In my experience, the Empire is more than "decent".
    You write that as though they are all the same. %-)

    You write that as though you haven't read any of my other posts in this >thread. %-)

    I've already posted about the differences between the Empires and the
    set from Lee Valley. That's what started this thread. I know that they
    aren't all the same.

    What I've asked (twice) is "What is the difference between a $14 Empire
    and $90+ Starrett combo squares?" Haven't seen that answer yet.

    $76, of course.

    I haven't been impressed with Starrett for some time. I look at their
    stuff at Highland when I'm there. Woodpeckers is made better and no
    more expensive (for their product overlap, of course). It seems that
    they're just trading on their name.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.ne on Thu Dec 23 20:03:45 2021
    On Thu, 23 Dec 2021 17:08:16 -0500, "John Grossbohlin" <nospam.grossboj@nospam.earthlink.net> wrote:

    "DerbyDad03" wrote in message >news:18a1c708-d638-4f0c-9873-35e6fcc8dcfen@googlegroups.com...

    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin >>wrote:
    "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
    news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
    I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works
    right away.
    Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)

    Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the clamp >>> screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it
    passes.
    It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the
    hole
    and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole could >>> help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a
    Starrett.

    Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a >>$90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?

    I don't need metric, I don't need 1/64". The Empire (1/8", 1/16", 1/32") >>has served
    me well for I don't know how long (over a decade, at least). AFAIK, I've >>never been
    bit by the Empire, so what does the extra cost get me?

    I've still got time before Christmas. ;-)

    Smoothness right out of the box. Easy to read scales. Dead accurate for >machine set up (e.g., blade stops/fence stops/tilting bed stops, etc.).
    It's kind of like using a L-N plane vs. a new Stanley plane... you see and >feel the difference.

    They make them with scales in 64ths and they have what they call "quick >reading" 32nds and 64ths.

    Do you absolutely need something this fine for woodworking itself? No, not >really, a decent wooden try square and dividers or a compass could >substitute. After 40+ years the decent one I got for Christmas as a kid was >pretty well shot--my father was a journeyman tool a die maker in the '50s
    and '60s so it made sense to him to get me a decent one. I had the money so >I got the Starrett maybe 10-12 years ago. The old one resides in my
    carpentry tool box as it still has utility for carpentry when used with a >pencil. The Starrett resides in my shop's precision tool drawer with >calibers, dial gauges, etc. and is used for metal and woodworking and tool >set ups.

    P.S., It doesn't hurt to treat yourself occasionally. Back in the '80s I did >a 3.5 month solo bicycle trip all over the east coast. While in FL I met a >lot of middle aged and older people who were curious about my loaded down >bicycle and what I was doing. I heard a lot of stories that started out with >"I always wanted to..." None of those desires were carried out by the story >tellers and there was disappointment in a lot of voices. It gave me a >different perspective on life than I would have had otherwise. You need to >take care of yourself.

    Buy once. Cry once. I'm in the process of throwing away a pile of crap
    tools (most of) which I thought were decent when I bought them. The
    sanders I put in the trash tonight were always junk. Everything has
    been replaced by quality. It makes a difference.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Leon@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 23 19:08:50 2021
    On 12/22/2021 11:53 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 10:45:48 AM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 12/21/2021 4:54 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    I've been using a combination square from Empire for years. Last month
    I was working with my daughter's boyfriend at her house and he said that >>> he never used one of them before. (He works for his dad's concrete
    company. He's really handy, just doesn't do much precision work.)

    So I figured I'd get him a combination square for Christmas. Coincidentally,
    Lee Valley sent me an email for this set, so I bought one for him, and
    thinking that they might be a step up from my old Empire, I bought a set for
    myself.

    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/squares/74806-12-inch-and-6-combination-square-set?item=99W7555

    https://tinyurl.com/ComboSquares

    Compared to my Empire, sliding the head(s) on the rule(s) is like trying to slide a rock up hill. There's way too much drag. I tried GlideCoat but it
    barely helped.

    Just to be sure that it wasn't just because my Empire was all broken in, I >>> ordered a $13 Empire from Amazon. It slides as smooth as butter and
    that's what I'm going to give him instead.

    They are probably both made in China, but I would have hoped that
    Lee Valley's items would be a little better from a usage perspective.
    Not in this case they aren't.
    As Scott has mentioned, if the nut, that is loosened to allow the rule
    to slide,is spring loaded, try loosening the nut and pushing it toward
    the rule. While the nut is loose, the bolt that grabs the rule may
    still be under tension from the spring.


    Yes, the nut is spring loaded. Every combination square I've ever had had
    a spring loaded nut.

    I just tested my Empires against the two from Lee Valley. On the Empires, the rules slide easily with the slightest loosening of the nut. On the LV units, there
    is substantial drag. Pushing up on the nut on all units does make all of them slide easier, but the relative difference between the Empires and the LV's is still
    present. IOW, on the Empires (both the old and new one) there is no need to push
    up on the nut to get an easy slide, but a somewhat higher, but not needed, level
    of ease can be obtained by pushing up on the nut.

    In order to get the LV rules to slide even close to as easy as the Empires, I have to loosen the nuts to point where the rule is flopping around in the head
    *and* then push up on the nut. That is not something I would want to do as a everyday practice.

    FWIW I have a Woodpeckers indexable combination square and I have to
    push in on the nut, after loosening it, to slide the rule.

    Could that be due to the indexing feature? How does the indexing feature work?
    I assume it somehow locks into the stampings, correct?

    Oddly the fixing screw that tightens against the rule is relatively ball shaped, it kinda wedges into the edge of the groove in the rule. The
    indexing pin goes into a hole and fixes confidently and with out any
    play. BUT moving the rule is crotchety.




    Do you have other combo squares that don't require pushing up on the nut?

    no All require the nut/screw to be pushed to relieve the tension and
    release the rule. And or until there is no tension on the nut.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Leon on Thu Dec 23 17:25:20 2021
    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 8:10:10 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 12/23/2021 11:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
    news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
    I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works >>> right away.
    Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)

    Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the clamp >> screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it passes. >> It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the hole
    and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole could >> help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a Starrett.

    Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a $90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?
    Longevity of accuracy.


    And how has the accuracy of my old Empire changed?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Grossbohlin@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 23 23:28:35 2021
    "DerbyDad03" wrote in message news:ec7a03f6-7cef-473b-bb11-28910b739c32n@googlegroups.com...

    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 5:08:26 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:

    Back in the '80s I did
    a 3.5 month solo bicycle trip all over the east coast. While in FL I met
    a
    lot of middle aged and older people who were curious about my loaded down
    bicycle and what I was doing. I heard a lot of stories that started out
    with
    "I always wanted to..." None of those desires were carried out by the
    story
    tellers and there was disappointment in a lot of voices. It gave me a
    different perspective on life than I would have had otherwise. You need
    to
    take care of yourself.

    While I haven't done *everything* I've said I wanted to do (has anyone?)
    I've done
    enough that I could die tonight with no regrets.

    No regrets is a worthy goal. Sometimes it's nice for someone to remind me
    that I've had a lot of great adventuring in my life. Some of that
    adventuring was in my shop as I tried and conquered new things. I don't feel that I'm done, but yeah, I've got no regrets either.

    I do appreciate nice handtools... I have a lot of L-N tools (planes, saws, spoke shaves, screw drivers, card scrapers...) and appreciate the quality
    and the feel of the tools. Just last week I gave my son a set of my functionally duplicate planes, spoke shaves, calipers, sliding bevel gauge,
    and a combination square so he could have a good start.... The planes
    included block, low angle block, No 4, No 5, and No 22 (Millers Falls equivalent of a No 7). That No 22 was my grandfather's. The block plane was
    my friend's grandfather's. Her father told me he wanted me to have his tools
    a week or so before he died. He told his family on his death bed to give me
    all his tools and his father's tools as he wanted them to be used. He didn't know anyone else who even knew how to use them... Both men were union carpenters from the early to late-mid 1900s. The bevel gauge was my friend's great-grandfather's and has late 19th century patent dates. All those tools were well tuned and in fine working condition. It took me decades to "build
    my shop" and I've helped my 26 year old son get off to a good start. He's
    also got my old Jet contractor's saw, the one I replaced with a Jet cabinet saw. I gave him a bunch of books today. Like my friend's father, I want to
    see the stuff used... I don't want to have a museum here! I also appreciate the extra room I now have!

    Anyhow, you wouldn't regret owning a Starrett combination square even if you don't "need" it. I should have mentioned that with the heat treatment they receive they should hold their accuracy much better than the mild steel and cast iron of lessor squares. As I recall Starrett makes forged and cast versions if you want to get really picky. ;~)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jack@21:1/5 to Leon on Fri Dec 24 10:15:32 2021
    On 12/23/2021 8:10 PM, Leon wrote:
    On 12/23/2021 11:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

    Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a
    $90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?

    Longevity of accuracy.

    I use my Dads Lufkin #65 and have been for 45 years. Before that, I
    never remember my Dad not using this square so it is likely over 70
    years old. It's my most used tool and it has been dropped on to cement
    floors 100's of times and undoubtedly from many roof tops as well. It
    still is smooth as glass and perfectly square. Made in the USA in
    Saginaw Michigan when the US still made stuff.

    You can find them on Ebay for around $30.

    --
    Jack
    Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Scott Lurndal@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Fri Dec 24 16:02:56 2021
    DerbyDad03 <teamarrows@eznet.net> writes:
    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 8:10:10 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 12/23/2021 11:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
    news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
    I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works >> >>> right away.
    Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)

    Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the clamp >> >> screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it passes.
    It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the hole
    and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole could >> >> help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a Starrett.

    Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a >> > $90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?
    Longevity of accuracy.


    And how has the accuracy of my old Empire changed?

    Last time I checked Empire (and modern Stanley) combo squares, not one of the ones that I
    checked was actually, you know, square.

    I was fortunate to acquire a starrett set (regular head, center finder, protactor head) with a 12" and 24" blade for free; they're dead on square regardless of the blade position.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bill@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 24 13:03:16 2021
    On 12/23/2021 5:35 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 4:17:10 PM UTC-5, Bill wrote:
    On 12/23/2021 2:51 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

    Yes, I'm all set, but I'm still interested in knowing what an extra $75 gets me.
    In my experience, the Empire is more than "decent".
    You write that as though they are all the same. %-)

    You write that as though you haven't read any of my other posts in this thread. %-)

    Sorry, it's true that I didn't read them all. I'll try to make up for
    that and see what I missed.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From whit3rd@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 24 17:08:21 2021
    On Tuesday, December 21, 2021 at 2:54:42 PM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:

    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/squares/74806-12-inch-and-6-combination-square-set?item=99W7555

    https://tinyurl.com/ComboSquares

    Compared to my Empire, sliding the head(s) on the rule(s) is like trying to slide a rock up hill. There's way too much drag. I tried GlideCoat but it
    barely helped.

    Just to be sure that it wasn't just because my Empire was all broken in, I ordered a $13 Empire from Amazon. It slides as smooth as butter and
    that's what I'm going to give him instead.

    They are probably both made in China, but I would have hoped that
    Lee Valley's items would be a little better from a usage perspective.
    Not in this case they aren't.

    Somewhere, someone in a factory messed up. It happens. I've got Starrett combo squares that are excellent, but ONE of them is 'way off of square).

    If it's sticky, it's probably a burr or a bit of foreign material; a hand stone rubbed on
    the burr will fix the problem, you just have to inspect a lot of surfaces and edges.
    Less likely, something is bent; inspection for a curve is not difficult, but it's not
    as fix-able (I've got a dial indicator that sticks, unless I apply stress; it's retired
    now).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 25 09:10:07 2021
    On Friday, December 24, 2021 at 8:08:23 PM UTC-5, whit3rd wrote:
    On Tuesday, December 21, 2021 at 2:54:42 PM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:

    https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/marking-and-measuring/squares/74806-12-inch-and-6-combination-square-set?item=99W7555

    https://tinyurl.com/ComboSquares

    Compared to my Empire, sliding the head(s) on the rule(s) is like trying to slide a rock up hill. There's way too much drag. I tried GlideCoat but it
    barely helped.

    Just to be sure that it wasn't just because my Empire was all broken in, I ordered a $13 Empire from Amazon. It slides as smooth as butter and
    that's what I'm going to give him instead.

    They are probably both made in China, but I would have hoped that
    Lee Valley's items would be a little better from a usage perspective.
    Not in this case they aren't.
    Somewhere, someone in a factory messed up. It happens. I've got Starrett combo squares that are excellent, but ONE of them is 'way off of square).

    If it's sticky, it's probably a burr or a bit of foreign material; a hand stone rubbed on
    the burr will fix the problem, you just have to inspect a lot of surfaces and edges.
    Less likely, something is bent; inspection for a curve is not difficult, but it's not
    as fix-able (I've got a dial indicator that sticks, unless I apply stress; it's retired
    now).

    Everything you've said is 100% true, except for your use of "it's". In reality the correct
    word is "they". The boxed set includes a 12" square and a 6" square. They both exhibit
    the same resistance to sliding. Exactly. I even swapped heads, to no benefit.

    If the problem is a burr or a piece of foreign material, it's common to both squares,
    leading me to lean towards a manufacturing issue - unless that's how they want them
    to operate. I don't want them to operate them that way, so I'm going to see about
    returning them.

    I do have 2 more squares that I can compare them to because I bought a set as a gift
    and a set for myself. I need to check the LV return policy. If opening the package voids the
    return, I'm not going to open the other set just to test them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to Leon on Sat Dec 25 09:37:30 2021
    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 8:10:10 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 12/23/2021 11:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
    news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
    I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works >>> right away.
    Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)

    Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the clamp >> screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it passes. >> It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the hole
    and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole could >> help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a Starrett.

    Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a $90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?
    Longevity of accuracy.

    An explanation of your answer and a whole lot more...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKRi9geL8mg

    How to tune up a combo square...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCxIg1lQ8pw

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Grossbohlin@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 25 21:39:16 2021
    "DerbyDad03" wrote in message news:04a48dac-0681-4933-b887-473fb979eeefn@googlegroups.com...

    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 8:10:10 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 12/23/2021 11:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin
    wrote:
    "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
    news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
    I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that
    works
    right away.
    Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)

    Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the
    clamp
    screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it
    passes.
    It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the
    hole
    and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole
    could
    help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a
    Starrett.

    Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does
    a
    $90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?
    Longevity of accuracy.

    An explanation of your answer and a whole lot more...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKRi9geL8mg

    How to tune up a combo square...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCxIg1lQ8pw

    More related to my second comment on this topic, but yes, he did touch on
    key quality issues. Regarding the tuning... I'm more of a file and stone
    guy for this type of tuning as the sandpaper often hits surfaces you don't
    want hit... but sandpaper (more appropriately various grades of emery cloth) could work too.

    After all that, did you change your order? ;~)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From krw@notreal.com@21:1/5 to teamarrows@eznet.net on Sun Dec 26 16:39:08 2021
    On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 09:37:30 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teamarrows@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 8:10:10 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 12/23/2021 11:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
    news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
    I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works >> >>> right away.
    Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)

    Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the clamp >> >> screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it passes.
    It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the hole
    and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole could >> >> help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a Starrett.

    Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a >> > $90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?
    Longevity of accuracy.

    An explanation of your answer and a whole lot more...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKRi9geL8mg

    I looked at my ten or fifteen year old Empires last night. They have
    a lot of the "defects" in this video. The ends were polished but the
    groves did have wavies. They're square, though.

    I didn't have much of a reference point for sliding. While the action
    isn't exactly ball bearing-like, they move OK. I was at the BORG
    today and tried a couple of their Empires. Wow! They might just as
    well have glue in the mechanism. It would be really hard to set the
    length accurately.

    How to tune up a combo square...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCxIg1lQ8pw

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From John Grossbohlin@21:1/5 to All on Sun Dec 26 19:32:56 2021
    wrote in message news:grnhsgh83jhlji57rs1s6nadq5gic187vj@4ax.com...


    I looked at my ten or fifteen year old Empires last night. They have
    a lot of the "defects" in this video. The ends were polished but the
    groves did have wavies. They're square, though.

    I didn't have much of a reference point for sliding. While the action
    isn't exactly ball bearing-like, they move OK. I was at the BORG
    today and tried a couple of their Empires. Wow! They might just as
    well have glue in the mechanism. It would be really hard to set the
    length accurately.

    Now that you have some reference points they'll probably bug you. ;~)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From DerbyDad03@21:1/5 to k...@notreal.com on Sun Dec 26 18:22:50 2021
    On Sunday, December 26, 2021 at 4:39:12 PM UTC-5, k...@notreal.com wrote:
    On Sat, 25 Dec 2021 09:37:30 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
    <teama...@eznet.net> wrote:

    On Thursday, December 23, 2021 at 8:10:10 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
    On 12/23/2021 11:08 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
    On Wednesday, December 22, 2021 at 11:21:17 PM UTC-5, John Grossbohlin wrote:
    "DerbyDad03" wrote in message
    news:7c3a548c-71e3-40a7...@googlegroups.com...
    I have no desire to repair a faulty tool when I can buy one that works >> >>> right away.
    Then a Starrett should be on your list! ;~)

    Alternatively, it could need little more than a deburring. Take the clamp
    screw out and polish the edges of it and the hole through which it passes.
    It could very well be a burr that is causing the screw to stick in the hole
    and keep pressure on the rule. A little lithium grease in the hole could
    help too. I've encountered this before... but did eventually get a Starrett.

    Why do I need a Starrett if the Empires slide fine? What advantage does a
    $90+ Starrett have over the $14 Empire?
    Longevity of accuracy.

    An explanation of your answer and a whole lot more...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKRi9geL8mg
    I looked at my ten or fifteen year old Empires last night. They have
    a lot of the "defects" in this video. The ends were polished but the
    groves did have wavies. They're square, though.

    I didn't have much of a reference point for sliding. While the action
    isn't exactly ball bearing-like, they move OK. I was at the BORG
    today and tried a couple of their Empires. Wow! They might just as
    well have glue in the mechanism. It would be really hard to set the
    length accurately.


    That's interesting. That's how I feel about the LV combo squares, (really
    hard to set) yet the Empires I bought on Amazon, as well an my old Empire, slide like butter.

    I'll have to try one at HD next time I'm there.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)