• A report from Andalucia, July 2017

    From Simon Laub@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 10 16:54:45 2017
    XPost: talk.politics.european-union

    Have just returned from a trip to Andalucia.
    Lots of impressions to pass on, but, sadly, not much activity
    in rec.travel.european these days? I.e. not that many
    to pass the story on to?
    Nevertheless, I'll give it a go:

    Shortly: Andalucia has certainly been influenced
    by a lot of people over the centuries.
    From roman emperors, onwards to muslim caliphates,
    followed by Viking raids (Vikings who later settle in the
    area, selling cheese) and forward to Spanish kings,
    who started expeditions to the rest of the world from
    the Andalician heartland.
    Between all the wars you certainly don't get the impression
    that the past was such a glorious time of stability
    that you sometimes see it portrayed as in the media ...

    But, well, the land is still there.
    And well worth a visit.

    You can see some pictures from my trip here: http://www.simonlaub.net/Fortunecity/Andalucia2017/index.html

    best wishes
    -Simon

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From poldy@21:1/5 to Simon Laub on Mon Jul 10 12:46:56 2017
    XPost: talk.politics.european-union

    On 7/10/17 7:54 AM, Simon Laub wrote:
    Have just returned from a trip to Andalucia.
    Lots of impressions to pass on, but, sadly, not much activity
    in rec.travel.european these days? I.e. not that many
    to pass the story on to?
    Nevertheless, I'll give it a go:

    Shortly: Andalucia has certainly been influenced
    by a lot of people over the centuries.
    From roman emperors, onwards to muslim caliphates,
    followed by Viking raids (Vikings who later settle in the
    area, selling cheese) and forward to Spanish kings,
    who started expeditions to the rest of the world from
    the Andalician heartland.
    Between all the wars you certainly don't get the impression
    that the past was such a glorious time of stability
    that you sometimes see it portrayed as in the media ...

    But, well, the land is still there.
    And well worth a visit.

    You can see some pictures from my trip here: http://www.simonlaub.net/Fortunecity/Andalucia2017/index.html

    best wishes
    -Simon



    When I think of Andalucia, I remember the story about the Puerto del
    Suspiro del Moro, the way the sultan left Granada after being kicked out.

    Then of course there's the Ponte dei Sospiri in Venice.

    Different kind of sigh but interesting that two different places evoked
    similar responses.

    --
    Serenity Now!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ken Blake@21:1/5 to poldy on Mon Jul 10 13:27:43 2017
    XPost: talk.politics.european-union

    On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:46:56 -0700, poldy <poldy@kfu.com> wrote:

    When I think of Andalucia, I remember the story about the Puerto del
    Suspiro del Moro, the way the sultan left Granada after being kicked out.

    Then of course there's the Ponte dei Sospiri in Venice.

    Different kind of sigh but interesting that two different places evoked >similar responses.


    A pretty similar kind of sigh. The Ponte dei Sospiri is a bridge
    connecting the Palazzo Dogale with the prison cells. It's not called
    the "bridge of sighs" because of any sighs of people sighing when
    looking at it from the outside.It has a small window in it, and
    prisoners were said to sigh as they crossed the bridge, looked out the
    window, and saw their last glimpse of daylight before being locked up.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Surreyman@21:1/5 to Ken Blake on Tue Jul 11 01:32:21 2017
    On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 9:27:50 PM UTC+1, Ken Blake wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:46:56 -0700, poldy <poldy@kfu.com> wrote:

    When I think of Andalucia, I remember the story about the Puerto del >Suspiro del Moro, the way the sultan left Granada after being kicked out.

    Then of course there's the Ponte dei Sospiri in Venice.

    Different kind of sigh but interesting that two different places evoked >similar responses.


    A pretty similar kind of sigh. The Ponte dei Sospiri is a bridge
    connecting the Palazzo Dogale with the prison cells. It's not called
    the "bridge of sighs" because of any sighs of people sighing when
    looking at it from the outside.It has a small window in it, and
    prisoners were said to sigh as they crossed the bridge, looked out the window, and saw their last glimpse of daylight before being locked up.

    "Vikings who later settle in the area, selling cheese"?
    Well, that really enhances our historical knowledge of the del Sol.
    I agree, though, that sadly this group has largely lapsed.
    We've just returned from a fascinating first amble around Sicily, but I doubt if anyone is interested .............. ?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From tim...@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jul 11 10:42:36 2017
    "Surreyman" <alanspencer3@googlemail.com> wrote in message news:e69ea612-7d2d-4d2f-ac13-19ed8d40836a@googlegroups.com...
    On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 9:27:50 PM UTC+1, Ken Blake wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:46:56 -0700, poldy <poldy@kfu.com> wrote:

    When I think of Andalucia, I remember the story about the Puerto del
    Suspiro del Moro, the way the sultan left Granada after being kicked
    out.

    Then of course there's the Ponte dei Sospiri in Venice.

    Different kind of sigh but interesting that two different places evoked
    similar responses.


    A pretty similar kind of sigh. The Ponte dei Sospiri is a bridge
    connecting the Palazzo Dogale with the prison cells. It's not called
    the "bridge of sighs" because of any sighs of people sighing when
    looking at it from the outside.It has a small window in it, and
    prisoners were said to sigh as they crossed the bridge, looked out the
    window, and saw their last glimpse of daylight before being locked up.

    "Vikings who later settle in the area, selling cheese"?
    Well, that really enhances our historical knowledge of the del Sol.
    I agree, though, that sadly this group has largely lapsed.
    We've just returned from a fascinating first amble around Sicily, but I
    doubt if anyone is interested .............. ?

    yes please :-)

    tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin@21:1/5 to tim... on Tue Jul 11 12:57:42 2017
    On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 10:42:36 +0100, "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com> wrote:



    "Surreyman" <alanspencer3@googlemail.com> wrote in message >news:e69ea612-7d2d-4d2f-ac13-19ed8d40836a@googlegroups.com...
    On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 9:27:50 PM UTC+1, Ken Blake wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:46:56 -0700, poldy <poldy@kfu.com> wrote:

    When I think of Andalucia, I remember the story about the Puerto del
    Suspiro del Moro, the way the sultan left Granada after being kicked
    out.

    Then of course there's the Ponte dei Sospiri in Venice.

    Different kind of sigh but interesting that two different places evoked >>> >similar responses.


    A pretty similar kind of sigh. The Ponte dei Sospiri is a bridge
    connecting the Palazzo Dogale with the prison cells. It's not called
    the "bridge of sighs" because of any sighs of people sighing when
    looking at it from the outside.It has a small window in it, and
    prisoners were said to sigh as they crossed the bridge, looked out the
    window, and saw their last glimpse of daylight before being locked up.

    "Vikings who later settle in the area, selling cheese"?
    Well, that really enhances our historical knowledge of the del Sol.
    I agree, though, that sadly this group has largely lapsed.
    We've just returned from a fascinating first amble around Sicily, but I
    doubt if anyone is interested .............. ?

    yes please :-)

    Me too!
    --

    Martin in Zuid Holland

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From tim...@21:1/5 to Martin on Tue Jul 11 20:35:25 2017
    "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message news:pob9mc9rrti5crc8dd0mibpchbfnivifkn@4ax.com...
    On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 10:42:36 +0100, "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com>
    wrote:



    "Surreyman" <alanspencer3@googlemail.com> wrote in message >>news:e69ea612-7d2d-4d2f-ac13-19ed8d40836a@googlegroups.com...
    On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 9:27:50 PM UTC+1, Ken Blake wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:46:56 -0700, poldy <poldy@kfu.com> wrote:

    When I think of Andalucia, I remember the story about the Puerto del
    Suspiro del Moro, the way the sultan left Granada after being kicked
    out.

    Then of course there's the Ponte dei Sospiri in Venice.

    Different kind of sigh but interesting that two different places
    evoked
    similar responses.


    A pretty similar kind of sigh. The Ponte dei Sospiri is a bridge
    connecting the Palazzo Dogale with the prison cells. It's not called
    the "bridge of sighs" because of any sighs of people sighing when
    looking at it from the outside.It has a small window in it, and
    prisoners were said to sigh as they crossed the bridge, looked out the >>>> window, and saw their last glimpse of daylight before being locked up.

    "Vikings who later settle in the area, selling cheese"?
    Well, that really enhances our historical knowledge of the del Sol.
    I agree, though, that sadly this group has largely lapsed.
    We've just returned from a fascinating first amble around Sicily, but I
    doubt if anyone is interested .............. ?

    yes please :-)

    Me too!

    to be clear that I'm not just asking in order to keep the group alive ...

    I first (and only) visited Sicily in 82 when I was working a year in Italy

    This was pre internet, without a guide book, flying by the seat of my pants stuff

    I knew a few places that I had to go to: Mt Etna, Agrigento, Palermo etc

    I scheduled a two week holiday which I spent in the very south of Italy and
    on the Island - travelling by train. It was November BTW, glorious weather
    all week, though it did piss down the previous week when I had been in
    Naples :-(

    I'm sure that I missed some places. I remember that I got the train to
    Enna, fully expecting that if the station wasn't in the town centre (it
    isn't by about 5 km) there would be as bus as the had been at *every* other random Italian town that I had visited. But there wasn't and still isn't (actually I found a web site that says that there us, but there are no bus stops on street view!) - and there isn't even a sign of a taxi rank, though
    no doubt there's now a phone number on the wall that you can ring with your mobile - something that I, of course, didn't have in 82.

    Now, with 35 years of traveling experience behind me, I think I should go
    back and fill in the gaps.

    I'm minded to hire a car, but I am concerned by the overly cheap prices that are charged and whether it is possible to avoid all the scams that you read
    of to bump up the costs when you get there.

    Or I can again go by train (and bus) though this time using the internet to plan properly.

    Or I could see if I can add on some organised day trips from hotels in the mains towns - I don't rate that option much, but sometimes it works.

    or there is this:

    http://www.secretitalia.it/tours/sicily-cultural-tours-the-sicilian-splendours-tour/

    but plus flights (and therefore no obligation on the tour company to help
    you if the flights are late/cancelled) the price is just silly

    So am generally interested in how you travelled around and any out of the ordinary places that you visited.

    tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ken Blake@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jul 11 13:42:39 2017
    On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 20:35:25 +0100, "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com>
    wrote:



    "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message >news:pob9mc9rrti5crc8dd0mibpchbfnivifkn@4ax.com...
    On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 10:42:36 +0100, "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com>
    wrote:



    "Surreyman" <alanspencer3@googlemail.com> wrote in message >>>news:e69ea612-7d2d-4d2f-ac13-19ed8d40836a@googlegroups.com...
    On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 9:27:50 PM UTC+1, Ken Blake wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:46:56 -0700, poldy <poldy@kfu.com> wrote:

    When I think of Andalucia, I remember the story about the Puerto del >>>>> >Suspiro del Moro, the way the sultan left Granada after being kicked >>>>> >out.

    Then of course there's the Ponte dei Sospiri in Venice.

    Different kind of sigh but interesting that two different places
    evoked
    similar responses.


    A pretty similar kind of sigh. The Ponte dei Sospiri is a bridge
    connecting the Palazzo Dogale with the prison cells. It's not called >>>>> the "bridge of sighs" because of any sighs of people sighing when
    looking at it from the outside.It has a small window in it, and
    prisoners were said to sigh as they crossed the bridge, looked out the >>>>> window, and saw their last glimpse of daylight before being locked up. >>>>
    "Vikings who later settle in the area, selling cheese"?
    Well, that really enhances our historical knowledge of the del Sol.
    I agree, though, that sadly this group has largely lapsed.
    We've just returned from a fascinating first amble around Sicily, but I >>>> doubt if anyone is interested .............. ?

    yes please :-)

    Me too!

    to be clear that I'm not just asking in order to keep the group alive ...

    I first (and only) visited Sicily in 82 when I was working a year in Italy

    This was pre internet, without a guide book, flying by the seat of my pants >stuff

    I knew a few places that I had to go to: Mt Etna, Agrigento, Palermo etc

    I scheduled a two week holiday which I spent in the very south of Italy and >on the Island - travelling by train. It was November BTW, glorious weather >all week, though it did piss down the previous week when I had been in >Naples :-(

    I'm sure that I missed some places. I remember that I got the train to >Enna, fully expecting that if the station wasn't in the town centre (it >isn't by about 5 km) there would be as bus as the had been at *every* other >random Italian town that I had visited. But there wasn't and still isn't >(actually I found a web site that says that there us, but there are no bus >stops on street view!) - and there isn't even a sign of a taxi rank, though >no doubt there's now a phone number on the wall that you can ring with your >mobile - something that I, of course, didn't have in 82.

    Now, with 35 years of traveling experience behind me, I think I should go >back and fill in the gaps.

    I'm minded to hire a car, but I am concerned by the overly cheap prices that >are charged and whether it is possible to avoid all the scams that you read >of to bump up the costs when you get there.

    Or I can again go by train (and bus) though this time using the internet to >plan properly.

    Or I could see if I can add on some organised day trips from hotels in the >mains towns - I don't rate that option much, but sometimes it works.

    or there is this:

    http://www.secretitalia.it/tours/sicily-cultural-tours-the-sicilian-splendours-tour/

    but plus flights (and therefore no obligation on the tour company to help >you if the flights are late/cancelled) the price is just silly

    So am generally interested in how you travelled around and any out of the >ordinary places that you visited.



    Places: Palermo, Monreale, Segesta, Erice, Agrigento, Selinunte,
    Siracusa, Taormina.

    I've always rented a car when I went to Sicily, and that's what I
    recommend.

    I have just one other recommendation. If you are going to be in
    Naples, instead of taking a train to Sicily, you might want to take
    the overnight ferry to Palermo or Catania, and then return to the
    mainland from the other. I haven't checked the prices recently, but
    the last time I went, the cost was about the same as staying in a
    hotel, which means that it costs nothing extra for that night. And
    since you will be asleep for most of the trip, it doesn't take any
    time out of your overall trip, the way a train would.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin@21:1/5 to Ken Blake on Wed Jul 12 00:08:45 2017
    On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 13:42:39 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:

    On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 20:35:25 +0100, "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com>
    wrote:



    "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message >>news:pob9mc9rrti5crc8dd0mibpchbfnivifkn@4ax.com...
    On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 10:42:36 +0100, "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com>
    wrote:



    "Surreyman" <alanspencer3@googlemail.com> wrote in message >>>>news:e69ea612-7d2d-4d2f-ac13-19ed8d40836a@googlegroups.com...
    On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 9:27:50 PM UTC+1, Ken Blake wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:46:56 -0700, poldy <poldy@kfu.com> wrote:

    When I think of Andalucia, I remember the story about the Puerto del >>>>>> >Suspiro del Moro, the way the sultan left Granada after being kicked >>>>>> >out.

    Then of course there's the Ponte dei Sospiri in Venice.

    Different kind of sigh but interesting that two different places
    evoked
    similar responses.


    A pretty similar kind of sigh. The Ponte dei Sospiri is a bridge
    connecting the Palazzo Dogale with the prison cells. It's not called >>>>>> the "bridge of sighs" because of any sighs of people sighing when
    looking at it from the outside.It has a small window in it, and
    prisoners were said to sigh as they crossed the bridge, looked out the >>>>>> window, and saw their last glimpse of daylight before being locked up. >>>>>
    "Vikings who later settle in the area, selling cheese"?
    Well, that really enhances our historical knowledge of the del Sol.
    I agree, though, that sadly this group has largely lapsed.
    We've just returned from a fascinating first amble around Sicily, but I >>>>> doubt if anyone is interested .............. ?

    yes please :-)

    Me too!

    to be clear that I'm not just asking in order to keep the group alive ...

    I first (and only) visited Sicily in 82 when I was working a year in Italy

    This was pre internet, without a guide book, flying by the seat of my pants >>stuff

    I knew a few places that I had to go to: Mt Etna, Agrigento, Palermo etc

    I scheduled a two week holiday which I spent in the very south of Italy and >>on the Island - travelling by train. It was November BTW, glorious weather >>all week, though it did piss down the previous week when I had been in >>Naples :-(

    I'm sure that I missed some places. I remember that I got the train to >>Enna, fully expecting that if the station wasn't in the town centre (it >>isn't by about 5 km) there would be as bus as the had been at *every* other >>random Italian town that I had visited. But there wasn't and still isn't >>(actually I found a web site that says that there us, but there are no bus >>stops on street view!) - and there isn't even a sign of a taxi rank, though >>no doubt there's now a phone number on the wall that you can ring with your >>mobile - something that I, of course, didn't have in 82.

    Now, with 35 years of traveling experience behind me, I think I should go >>back and fill in the gaps.

    I'm minded to hire a car, but I am concerned by the overly cheap prices that >>are charged and whether it is possible to avoid all the scams that you read >>of to bump up the costs when you get there.

    Or I can again go by train (and bus) though this time using the internet to >>plan properly.

    Or I could see if I can add on some organised day trips from hotels in the >>mains towns - I don't rate that option much, but sometimes it works.

    or there is this:
    http://www.secretitalia.it/tours/sicily-cultural-tours-the-sicilian-splendours-tour/

    but plus flights (and therefore no obligation on the tour company to help >>you if the flights are late/cancelled) the price is just silly

    So am generally interested in how you travelled around and any out of the >>ordinary places that you visited.



    Places: Palermo, Monreale, Segesta, Erice, Agrigento, Selinunte,
    Siracusa, Taormina.

    I've always rented a car when I went to Sicily, and that's what I
    recommend.

    I have just one other recommendation. If you are going to be in
    Naples, instead of taking a train to Sicily, you might want to take
    the overnight ferry to Palermo or Catania, and then return to the
    mainland from the other. I haven't checked the prices recently, but
    the last time I went, the cost was about the same as staying in a
    hotel, which means that it costs nothing extra for that night. And
    since you will be asleep for most of the trip, it doesn't take any
    time out of your overall trip, the way a train would.

    Similarly we took ferries from Venice to get to Greece rather than driving to Ancona and catching the ferry to Patras or flying the whole way from Northern Europe
    --

    Martin in Zuid Holland

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin@21:1/5 to tim... on Wed Jul 12 10:34:59 2017
    On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 09:23:59 +0100, "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com> wrote:



    "Ken Blake" <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote in message >news:3jdamc5v06ss5pdpjn4lpb474l5iad8295@4ax.com...
    On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 20:35:25 +0100, "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com>
    wrote:



    "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message >>>news:pob9mc9rrti5crc8dd0mibpchbfnivifkn@4ax.com...
    On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 10:42:36 +0100, "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com> >>>> wrote:



    "Surreyman" <alanspencer3@googlemail.com> wrote in message >>>>>news:e69ea612-7d2d-4d2f-ac13-19ed8d40836a@googlegroups.com...
    On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 9:27:50 PM UTC+1, Ken Blake wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:46:56 -0700, poldy <poldy@kfu.com> wrote: >>>>>>>
    When I think of Andalucia, I remember the story about the Puerto del >>>>>>> >Suspiro del Moro, the way the sultan left Granada after being kicked >>>>>>> >out.

    Then of course there's the Ponte dei Sospiri in Venice.

    Different kind of sigh but interesting that two different places >>>>>>> >evoked
    similar responses.


    A pretty similar kind of sigh. The Ponte dei Sospiri is a bridge >>>>>>> connecting the Palazzo Dogale with the prison cells. It's not called >>>>>>> the "bridge of sighs" because of any sighs of people sighing when >>>>>>> looking at it from the outside.It has a small window in it, and
    prisoners were said to sigh as they crossed the bridge, looked out >>>>>>> the
    window, and saw their last glimpse of daylight before being locked >>>>>>> up.

    "Vikings who later settle in the area, selling cheese"?
    Well, that really enhances our historical knowledge of the del Sol. >>>>>> I agree, though, that sadly this group has largely lapsed.
    We've just returned from a fascinating first amble around Sicily, but >>>>>> I
    doubt if anyone is interested .............. ?

    yes please :-)

    Me too!

    to be clear that I'm not just asking in order to keep the group alive ... >>>
    I first (and only) visited Sicily in 82 when I was working a year in Italy >>>
    This was pre internet, without a guide book, flying by the seat of my >>>pants
    stuff

    I knew a few places that I had to go to: Mt Etna, Agrigento, Palermo etc

    I scheduled a two week holiday which I spent in the very south of Italy >>>and
    on the Island - travelling by train. It was November BTW, glorious >>>weather
    all week, though it did piss down the previous week when I had been in >>>Naples :-(

    I'm sure that I missed some places. I remember that I got the train to >>>Enna, fully expecting that if the station wasn't in the town centre (it >>>isn't by about 5 km) there would be as bus as the had been at *every* >>>other
    random Italian town that I had visited. But there wasn't and still isn't >>>(actually I found a web site that says that there us, but there are no bus >>>stops on street view!) - and there isn't even a sign of a taxi rank, >>>though
    no doubt there's now a phone number on the wall that you can ring with >>>your
    mobile - something that I, of course, didn't have in 82.

    Now, with 35 years of traveling experience behind me, I think I should go >>>back and fill in the gaps.

    I'm minded to hire a car, but I am concerned by the overly cheap prices >>>that
    are charged and whether it is possible to avoid all the scams that you >>>read
    of to bump up the costs when you get there.

    Or I can again go by train (and bus) though this time using the internet >>>to
    plan properly.

    Or I could see if I can add on some organised day trips from hotels in the >>>mains towns - I don't rate that option much, but sometimes it works.

    or there is this:
    http://www.secretitalia.it/tours/sicily-cultural-tours-the-sicilian-splendours-tour/

    but plus flights (and therefore no obligation on the tour company to help >>>you if the flights are late/cancelled) the price is just silly

    So am generally interested in how you travelled around and any out of the >>>ordinary places that you visited.



    Places: Palermo, Monreale, Segesta, Erice, Agrigento, Selinunte,
    Siracusa, Taormina.

    I've always rented a car when I went to Sicily, and that's what I
    recommend.

    and what should one pay for this.

    I have just one other recommendation. If you are going to be in
    Naples,

    why would I be in Naples on this trip?

    It doesn't apply just to you. This is usenet not e-mail.


    I shall be flying from London

    I was only in Naples the previous time because I got the overnight train
    from Milan,

    instead of taking a train to Sicily, you might want to take
    the overnight ferry to Palermo or Catania, and then return to the
    mainland from the other. I haven't checked the prices recently, but
    the last time I went, the cost was about the same as staying in a
    hotel, which means that it costs nothing extra for that night. And
    since you will be asleep for most of the trip, it doesn't take any
    time out of your overall trip, the way a train would.

    is there no longer a night train for that journey?

    (Google, google)

    yes there is:

    ICN35455

    Somebody put a bomb in the Rome Milan night train in the 1990s. I knew somebody
    who always travelled by night train between Rome and Milan for business meetings, because he couldn't fly for health reasons. He almost caught the train
    with the bomb. He had a miraculous cure and travelled by air on subsequent trips. It wasn't obvious why he thought flying was safer. Security at Rome Airport was terrible. They had had terrorist attacks there.

    --

    Martin in Zuid Holland

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Surreyman@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jul 12 01:58:08 2017
    Well, it's the long version or the short version! We'll keep to the latter pro tem.

    Our normal travelling is usually very much DIY. So, based in the east in Taormina, we had sketched out two weeks in May of moving around most sights in the island.
    However - thank you travel industry - we were advised with far too little notice that G7, of which we'd never heard, was causing a lockdown and cancellation of all hotel reservations in Taormina for the duration.

    We wanted to stay with the hotel carefully chosen (within all this was a family celebration) so we ended up in Taormina a month late, and in uncustomary heat and humidity (even for Sicily!) that foreshortened too much activity.
    So we stayed centred in the east, cut our various overnighting stays planned in the west and, in the reduced 'charging around' time relied on conducted tours more than we usually would.

    Here's a precis of some notes I sent to a friend who's also shortly visiting for the first time.

    Aeolian islands: Beautiful. Get cruises for the day from the port near Messina. Do include the version that stands off at sea in the dark of the evening so that you can watch Stromboli erupting - we saw 4 good bangs/flames within 45 minutes. Great stuff!

    Etna: Can't be missed - we were very lucky and apart from heat haze had exceptional views. Depending on your preference you can stop at the end of the road access (with views up towards the main craters, plus small old craters nearby to look at), or go
    on the cable car rather higher, and then take 'jeep coaches' higher still, and then move as high as the guides will let you trek depending on volcanic action. Your choice! We saw copious smoke action from two top craters plus some black ash eruption.
    Marvellous day!

    Syracuse: Its history is rather more interesting than what is left (!) but nevertheless well worth walking around if you have spare time. Good stuff from ancient Greek to Roman/Byzantine/Norman and later, but relatively sparse. A half-day conducted walk
    would ensure you saw the highlights.

    Taormina: Our base, which proved exceptionally good for that, and very attractively sited below Etna. It appears on numerous excursions from other parts of Sicily, but I wouldn't have thought it was worth any significant diversion by travellers unless
    close anyway, but it's certainly very pleasant, with several good mediaeval piazzas.

    Mountain-top villages/towns: One of the unpublicised delights we discovered, so we went to many off our own backs (by hired car, mainly - buses available but took too much time). Usually, massive scenic drives up to them, great views from them (usually
    from bar/restaurants!), and usually you're well looked after by mine hosts since tourists were relatively rare. Often they'll have a good castle, too.

    Hot heat: For Sicilians to complain because of a heat wave is rather unusual - it's always xxxxxxx hot anyway! - but we went right into one, always in the higher 90s (in June), and sometimes humid (which wasn't supposed to happen in Sicily). So prepare.
    That's one of the reasons we escaped into the hill villages so often.
    So, also, disappointingly, we curtailed some of the planned longer trips - Agrigento (temples) and Palermo (Monreale). A shame, but they would have been physically suicidal (and, as you know, we're used to deserts' heat)!
    If you're nearer to those sites and your temperatures/humidity prove more sensible, then obviously go, as we did to our more nearby Syracuse.

    Food: Italian, of course. Better than average, we found the pizzas, the street food (arancini especially), Aperol spritzer (a Sicilian sour orange cocktail liqueur) and, massively, the out-of-this world fresh seafood in all its guises (but avoid the
    thick cheese/breadcrumb coatings, which Sicilians love but which kills the seafood taste). And watch out for 'spaghetti with (whatever)' descriptions - the (whatever) is often just there in powdered breadcrumb form, which Sicilians love but we found
    tasteless! Check that you're going to get whole pieces of (whatever). And, one of the best, is the Sicilian form of bouillabaisse, which I gorged on!!! Also, the 'mixed fried fish' - lightly battered and whole. We ate a lot!!

    Don't try and find any decent beer (from my point of view) although if you favour your USA light gassy 'lager' stuff, there are bottles of that type all over - such as the Dutch Heineken, which I found they do and which I could just about tolerate.
    Wines are as mixed and variable as all over the rest of Italy. I didn't find any really excellent ones to suggest but, personally, I avoided Nero (which the bars sometimes push) - it's their local red one from the Etna slopes. I found it rough and
    slightly effervescent. Generally, I just had house reds and dry whites - they were mostly fine. Prosecco we get too much of in the UK already, and I detest the stuff! For one meal I found a Barolo on the list, which I'll always devour!

    The people we found excellent, unfailingly cheerful and helpful, and never encountered the reserve sometimes present further north.

    Rather shallow, I'm afraid, since Trump upset much of our original plans, but happy to dwell further on any specifics as far as I can if you have questions.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Giovanni Drogo@21:1/5 to tim... on Wed Jul 12 11:08:04 2017
    On Tue, 11 Jul 2017, tim... wrote:

    I first (and only) visited Sicily in 82 when I was working a year in
    Italy

    Well, as far as tourism is concerned when I was in Sicily I did it with organized tours, except when I was there for work (but that was just in
    Palermo and Catania, and Erice which is a conference place ... the
    conference organizers, there and in Catania, took care of appropriate
    tours)

    I do not consider it a public transport friendly place. Recently a
    disable friend (in wheelchair) wanted to spend a weekend in Palermo
    (without hiring a car as sometimes the person who accompanies him does),
    and I guess he missed some places like Monreale.

    I scheduled a two week holiday which I spent in the very south of
    Italy and on the Island - travelling by train.

    You were very brave (*). The sicilian railways have poor fame (slow and unfrequent), apparently the locals prefer buses.

    (*) or are you a railway fan ? The actor Marco Paolini and the
    journalist Paolo Rumiz did a full railway tour of Italy using only local
    trains and starting just from Sicily if I remember well. The book is
    called "L'Italia in seconda classe" (Italy in 2nd class, I do not know
    if it was translated)

    I'm sure that I missed some places. I remember that I got the train
    to Enna, fully expecting that if the station wasn't in the town centre
    (it isn't by about 5 km) there would be as bus as the had been at
    *every* other random Italian town that I had visited. But there
    wasn't and still isn't

    I guess I'd never consider Enna as a destination worth visiting. I still
    think the station is poorly connected. In the last years on a transport
    forum we run a contest "virtual tour of Italy with public transport"
    where we had to plan trips from place to place using information on web
    sites, and for Enna almost every participant used buses.

    Anyhow ... I'd never taken the ferry from Reggio Calabria to Messina,
    though the sight of the strait should be nice, and I've never visited
    Messina (which was destroyed in the quake of 1908), always skimmed
    around it.

    Anyhow there is a main railway line from Messina to Palermo but I am not
    sure how comfortable it is for the main sights along the route.

    Tindari has a shrine up on the hill (not of artistic or historic
    interest) with a beautiful view on the dunes below.

    Milazzo is the main port going to the Lipari islands, but I thin the
    harbour and the station are not near (we came from Catania airport with
    a van). The islands (Vulcano, Lipari, Panarea and Stromboli are the
    ones I visited, the others are farther) are definitely worth visiting.

    Cefalu' has a nice norman cathedral, and possibly it is the best located
    for what railways connections are concerned.

    Bagheria near Palermo should host some nice villas, but I am not sure if
    they are open for visits.

    Palermo you possibly know and should be visitable within walking
    distances or using urban buses. I guess they go even up to Monreale with
    a VERY nice norman cathedral with mosaics.

    AFAIK the railway connection to Palermo airport is closed for
    refurbishment (I always used the frequent bus connection, when I went
    there the railway link was not existing).

    It should be a branch of a line going to Trapani and Castelvetrano.

    In Trapani I visited only the Pepoli museum (we came down half a day
    from Erice), but it should be the main port towards the Egadi islands
    (where I've never been). Erice is up on the hill (sometimes in the fog)
    and worth visiting (I do not know about connections, there used to be
    even a funicolar, I always used the coach of the conference centre).

    I've never visited Marsala, the saline (salt flats) and the western
    coast.

    The railway line to Castelvetrano (on the southern coast) should have a
    stop near the Segesta temple (but I guess a fair walk). Was there with
    tours both from Palermo and Erice. It is an unfinished doric temple
    built by the Elimi, fully isolated (the theatre and other remains are
    behind a hill, possibly the archeological site has a shuttle connecting
    them.

    As far as I know there are no operating railways on the south-west coast
    (near Selinunte temples, or Sciacca).

    The main lines from Palermo to Agrigento and Catania go through the
    interior (you know Enna), which I never visited.

    The station in Agrigento is near the old centre, but the excellent archeological site, as the name "Temple Valley" says, is down in the
    valley.

    I do not know about transport connections to Piazza Armerina, nor about
    the distance to the roman Villa del Casale (which has an impressive
    collection of floor mosaics).

    Another main line goes from Messina to Catania and Siracusa. It stops at Taormina (but the city is up on a hill) and Acireale. I guess not very
    frequent (when we had a conference at Capo Mulini, I preferred to take
    the tour to Etna rather than going myself by train to Siracusa).

    Two things I never done in that area are the railways tour around Etna
    with the Circumetnea railway, and the visit to the Alcantara gorges.

    Siracusa has a nice archeological area. The Aretusa spring (a natural sweetwater spring with papyrus plants located just a few meters from the
    sea) is just in the old centre of Ortigia. I never went to river Ciane
    (which should be ... cyan), but I heard there are boat tours.

    I also never was to Noto (baroque) in the interior, nor to the Pantalica necropolis, nor to any of the other places in the south-east corners
    like Ragusa or Modica (but I've eaten the Modica chocolate, which is an experience ... produced with a "cold" technique just with cacao and
    sugar, no milk at all).

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From tim...@21:1/5 to Ken Blake on Wed Jul 12 09:23:59 2017
    "Ken Blake" <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote in message news:3jdamc5v06ss5pdpjn4lpb474l5iad8295@4ax.com...
    On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 20:35:25 +0100, "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com>
    wrote:



    "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message >>news:pob9mc9rrti5crc8dd0mibpchbfnivifkn@4ax.com...
    On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 10:42:36 +0100, "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com>
    wrote:



    "Surreyman" <alanspencer3@googlemail.com> wrote in message >>>>news:e69ea612-7d2d-4d2f-ac13-19ed8d40836a@googlegroups.com...
    On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 9:27:50 PM UTC+1, Ken Blake wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:46:56 -0700, poldy <poldy@kfu.com> wrote:

    When I think of Andalucia, I remember the story about the Puerto del >>>>>> >Suspiro del Moro, the way the sultan left Granada after being kicked >>>>>> >out.

    Then of course there's the Ponte dei Sospiri in Venice.

    Different kind of sigh but interesting that two different places
    evoked
    similar responses.


    A pretty similar kind of sigh. The Ponte dei Sospiri is a bridge
    connecting the Palazzo Dogale with the prison cells. It's not called >>>>>> the "bridge of sighs" because of any sighs of people sighing when
    looking at it from the outside.It has a small window in it, and
    prisoners were said to sigh as they crossed the bridge, looked out >>>>>> the
    window, and saw their last glimpse of daylight before being locked >>>>>> up.

    "Vikings who later settle in the area, selling cheese"?
    Well, that really enhances our historical knowledge of the del Sol.
    I agree, though, that sadly this group has largely lapsed.
    We've just returned from a fascinating first amble around Sicily, but >>>>> I
    doubt if anyone is interested .............. ?

    yes please :-)

    Me too!

    to be clear that I'm not just asking in order to keep the group alive ...

    I first (and only) visited Sicily in 82 when I was working a year in Italy

    This was pre internet, without a guide book, flying by the seat of my
    pants
    stuff

    I knew a few places that I had to go to: Mt Etna, Agrigento, Palermo etc

    I scheduled a two week holiday which I spent in the very south of Italy
    and
    on the Island - travelling by train. It was November BTW, glorious
    weather
    all week, though it did piss down the previous week when I had been in >>Naples :-(

    I'm sure that I missed some places. I remember that I got the train to >>Enna, fully expecting that if the station wasn't in the town centre (it >>isn't by about 5 km) there would be as bus as the had been at *every*
    other
    random Italian town that I had visited. But there wasn't and still isn't >>(actually I found a web site that says that there us, but there are no bus >>stops on street view!) - and there isn't even a sign of a taxi rank,
    though
    no doubt there's now a phone number on the wall that you can ring with
    your
    mobile - something that I, of course, didn't have in 82.

    Now, with 35 years of traveling experience behind me, I think I should go >>back and fill in the gaps.

    I'm minded to hire a car, but I am concerned by the overly cheap prices >>that
    are charged and whether it is possible to avoid all the scams that you
    read
    of to bump up the costs when you get there.

    Or I can again go by train (and bus) though this time using the internet
    to
    plan properly.

    Or I could see if I can add on some organised day trips from hotels in the >>mains towns - I don't rate that option much, but sometimes it works.

    or there is this:
    http://www.secretitalia.it/tours/sicily-cultural-tours-the-sicilian-splendours-tour/

    but plus flights (and therefore no obligation on the tour company to help >>you if the flights are late/cancelled) the price is just silly

    So am generally interested in how you travelled around and any out of the >>ordinary places that you visited.



    Places: Palermo, Monreale, Segesta, Erice, Agrigento, Selinunte,
    Siracusa, Taormina.

    I've always rented a car when I went to Sicily, and that's what I
    recommend.

    and what should one pay for this.

    I have just one other recommendation. If you are going to be in
    Naples,

    why would I be in Naples on this trip?

    I shall be flying from London

    I was only in Naples the previous time because I got the overnight train
    from Milan,

    instead of taking a train to Sicily, you might want to take
    the overnight ferry to Palermo or Catania, and then return to the
    mainland from the other. I haven't checked the prices recently, but
    the last time I went, the cost was about the same as staying in a
    hotel, which means that it costs nothing extra for that night. And
    since you will be asleep for most of the trip, it doesn't take any
    time out of your overall trip, the way a train would.

    is there no longer a night train for that journey?

    (Google, google)

    yes there is:

    ICN35455

    Thanks

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From tim...@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jul 12 14:13:10 2017
    "Giovanni Drogo" <drogo@rn.bastiani.ta.invalid> wrote in message news:alpine.LSU.2.00.1707121024490.21780@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg...
    On Tue, 11 Jul 2017, tim... wrote:

    I first (and only) visited Sicily in 82 when I was working a year in
    Italy

    Well, as far as tourism is concerned when I was in Sicily I did it with organized tours, except when I was there for work (but that was just in Palermo and Catania, and Erice which is a conference place ... the
    conference organizers, there and in Catania, took care of appropriate
    tours)

    I do not consider it a public transport friendly place. Recently a disable friend (in wheelchair) wanted to spend a weekend in Palermo (without
    hiring a car as sometimes the person who accompanies him does), and I
    guess he missed some places like Monreale.

    I scheduled a two week holiday which I spent in the very south of Italy
    and on the Island - travelling by train.

    You were very brave (*). The sicilian railways have poor fame (slow and unfrequent), apparently the locals prefer buses.

    (*) or are you a railway fan ?

    I was 24, "poor" and with zero experience of driving on the wrong side of
    the road, and IME (as a pedestrian) Italy is not the best choice of county
    to change that - I have still never driven there.

    thanks

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Ken Blake@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jul 12 07:55:18 2017
    On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 09:23:59 +0100, "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com>
    wrote:



    "Ken Blake" <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote in message >news:3jdamc5v06ss5pdpjn4lpb474l5iad8295@4ax.com...
    On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 20:35:25 +0100, "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com>
    wrote:



    "Martin" <me@address.invalid> wrote in message >>>news:pob9mc9rrti5crc8dd0mibpchbfnivifkn@4ax.com...
    On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 10:42:36 +0100, "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com> >>>> wrote:



    "Surreyman" <alanspencer3@googlemail.com> wrote in message >>>>>news:e69ea612-7d2d-4d2f-ac13-19ed8d40836a@googlegroups.com...
    On Monday, July 10, 2017 at 9:27:50 PM UTC+1, Ken Blake wrote:
    On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 12:46:56 -0700, poldy <poldy@kfu.com> wrote: >>>>>>>
    When I think of Andalucia, I remember the story about the Puerto del >>>>>>> >Suspiro del Moro, the way the sultan left Granada after being kicked >>>>>>> >out.

    Then of course there's the Ponte dei Sospiri in Venice.

    Different kind of sigh but interesting that two different places >>>>>>> >evoked
    similar responses.


    A pretty similar kind of sigh. The Ponte dei Sospiri is a bridge >>>>>>> connecting the Palazzo Dogale with the prison cells. It's not called >>>>>>> the "bridge of sighs" because of any sighs of people sighing when >>>>>>> looking at it from the outside.It has a small window in it, and
    prisoners were said to sigh as they crossed the bridge, looked out >>>>>>> the
    window, and saw their last glimpse of daylight before being locked >>>>>>> up.

    "Vikings who later settle in the area, selling cheese"?
    Well, that really enhances our historical knowledge of the del Sol. >>>>>> I agree, though, that sadly this group has largely lapsed.
    We've just returned from a fascinating first amble around Sicily, but >>>>>> I
    doubt if anyone is interested .............. ?

    yes please :-)

    Me too!

    to be clear that I'm not just asking in order to keep the group alive ... >>>
    I first (and only) visited Sicily in 82 when I was working a year in Italy >>>
    This was pre internet, without a guide book, flying by the seat of my >>>pants
    stuff

    I knew a few places that I had to go to: Mt Etna, Agrigento, Palermo etc

    I scheduled a two week holiday which I spent in the very south of Italy >>>and
    on the Island - travelling by train. It was November BTW, glorious >>>weather
    all week, though it did piss down the previous week when I had been in >>>Naples :-(

    I'm sure that I missed some places. I remember that I got the train to >>>Enna, fully expecting that if the station wasn't in the town centre (it >>>isn't by about 5 km) there would be as bus as the had been at *every* >>>other
    random Italian town that I had visited. But there wasn't and still isn't >>>(actually I found a web site that says that there us, but there are no bus >>>stops on street view!) - and there isn't even a sign of a taxi rank, >>>though
    no doubt there's now a phone number on the wall that you can ring with >>>your
    mobile - something that I, of course, didn't have in 82.

    Now, with 35 years of traveling experience behind me, I think I should go >>>back and fill in the gaps.

    I'm minded to hire a car, but I am concerned by the overly cheap prices >>>that
    are charged and whether it is possible to avoid all the scams that you >>>read
    of to bump up the costs when you get there.

    Or I can again go by train (and bus) though this time using the internet >>>to
    plan properly.

    Or I could see if I can add on some organised day trips from hotels in the >>>mains towns - I don't rate that option much, but sometimes it works.

    or there is this:
    http://www.secretitalia.it/tours/sicily-cultural-tours-the-sicilian-splendours-tour/

    but plus flights (and therefore no obligation on the tour company to help >>>you if the flights are late/cancelled) the price is just silly

    So am generally interested in how you travelled around and any out of the >>>ordinary places that you visited.



    Places: Palermo, Monreale, Segesta, Erice, Agrigento, Selinunte,
    Siracusa, Taormina.

    I've always rented a car when I went to Sicily, and that's what I
    recommend.

    and what should one pay for this.


    I have no idea. It was many years ago that I last did it.


    I have just one other recommendation. If you are going to be in
    Naples,

    why would I be in Naples on this trip?


    I have no idea. Note that I said "if."

    But even if you were someplace like Rome, you might want to take a
    train to Naples to catch the ferry.


    I shall be flying from London


    OK.


    I was only in Naples the previous time because I got the overnight train >from Milan,

    instead of taking a train to Sicily, you might want to take
    the overnight ferry to Palermo or Catania, and then return to the
    mainland from the other. I haven't checked the prices recently, but
    the last time I went, the cost was about the same as staying in a
    hotel, which means that it costs nothing extra for that night. And
    since you will be asleep for most of the trip, it doesn't take any
    time out of your overall trip, the way a train would.

    is there no longer a night train for that journey?



    Can you sleep on overnight trains? Fine, if you can. But I can't. I
    find sleeping in a seat uncomfortable, and besides, I worry about
    thievery if I'm asleep.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From tim...@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jul 12 15:40:43 2017
    "Giovanni Drogo" <drogo@rn.bastiani.ta.invalid> wrote in message news:alpine.LSU.2.00.1707121024490.21780@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg...
    On Tue, 11 Jul 2017, tim... wrote:

    I first (and only) visited Sicily in 82 when I was working a year in
    Italy

    Well, as far as tourism is concerned when I was in Sicily I did it with organized tours, except when I was there for work (but that was just in Palermo and Catania, and Erice which is a conference place ... the
    conference organizers, there and in Catania, took care of appropriate
    tours)

    I do not consider it a public transport friendly place. Recently a disable friend (in wheelchair) wanted to spend a weekend in Palermo (without
    hiring a car as sometimes the person who accompanies him does), and I
    guess he missed some places like Monreale.

    I scheduled a two week holiday which I spent in the very south of Italy
    and on the Island - travelling by train.

    You were very brave (*). The sicilian railways have poor fame (slow and unfrequent), apparently the locals prefer buses.

    (*) or are you a railway fan ? The actor Marco Paolini and the journalist Paolo Rumiz did a full railway tour of Italy using only local trains and starting just from Sicily if I remember well. The book is called "L'Italia
    in seconda classe" (Italy in 2nd class, I do not know if it was
    translated)

    I'm sure that I missed some places. I remember that I got the train to
    Enna, fully expecting that if the station wasn't in the town centre (it
    isn't by about 5 km) there would be as bus as the had been at *every*
    other random Italian town that I had visited. But there wasn't and still
    isn't

    I guess I'd never consider Enna as a destination worth visiting. I still think the station is poorly connected. In the last years on a transport
    forum we run a contest "virtual tour of Italy with public transport" where
    we had to plan trips from place to place using information on web sites,
    and for Enna almost every participant used buses.

    Anyhow ... I'd never taken the ferry from Reggio Calabria to Messina,
    though the sight of the strait should be nice, and I've never visited
    Messina (which was destroyed in the quake of 1908), always skimmed around
    it.

    Anyhow there is a main railway line from Messina to Palermo but I am not
    sure how comfortable it is for the main sights along the route.

    Tindari has a shrine up on the hill (not of artistic or historic interest) with a beautiful view on the dunes below.

    Milazzo is the main port going to the Lipari islands, but I thin the
    harbour and the station are not near (we came from Catania airport with

    there's bound to be a bus, surely

    here you go:

    http://lanostramilazzo.altervista.org/images/stories/0_ORARI%20AST%20ESTATE%202017%20.pdf


    a van). The islands (Vulcano, Lipari, Panarea and Stromboli are the ones
    I visited, the others are farther) are definitely worth visiting.

    I hadn't really considered visiting the Islands

    The ferries don't seem to be overly helpful when visiting for a day trip,
    but accommodation on the islands is so limited that you really have plan
    ahead to get it right

    spending 3 or 4 days on these islands definitely works against touring by
    car


    Cefalu' has a nice norman cathedral, and possibly it is the best located
    for what railways connections are concerned.

    Bagheria near Palermo should host some nice villas, but I am not sure if
    they are open for visits.

    Solunto?


    Palermo you possibly know and should be visitable within walking distances
    or using urban buses. I guess they go even up to Monreale with a VERY nice norman cathedral with mosaics.


    seems to be bus 389

    http://amat.pa.it/immagini/mappa_agg_2016_04_01.pdf

    (what a rubbish map that is - unreadable "normal" sized, out of focus zoomed in)

    And don't get me started on maps that are orientated the wrong way round

    AFAIK the railway connection to Palermo airport is closed for
    refurbishment (I always used the frequent bus connection, when I went
    there the railway link was not existing).

    since 29th June 2015 - haven't they finished it yet - it's only a few Km
    that is being upgraded

    It should be a branch of a line going to Trapani and Castelvetrano.

    In Trapani I visited only the Pepoli museum (we came down half a day from Erice), but it should be the main port towards the Egadi islands (where
    I've never been). Erice is up on the hill (sometimes in the fog) and
    worth visiting (I do not know about connections, there used to be even a funicolar, I always used the coach of the conference centre).

    I've never visited Marsala, the saline (salt flats) and the western coast.

    didn't know of the salt flats

    The railway line to Castelvetrano (on the southern coast) should have a
    stop near the Segesta temple (but I guess a fair walk).

    would that be the stop called Segesta tempio?

    Google isn't showing the intermediate stops on this line, though it is
    showing the times of 4 or 5 trains from Alcamo Diramazione to Trapani, so I guess the line's still open - (in 82 there was 11 trains a day)

    Oh, looking on DB I see that all the Trapani services are via Castelvetrano,
    so the direct line's not still open

    No sign of any buses either

    Was there with tours both from Palermo and Erice. It is an unfinished doric >temple built by the Elimi, fully isolated (the theatre and other remains
    are behind a hill, possibly the archeological site has a shuttle connecting >them.

    As far as I know there are no operating railways on the south-west coast (near Selinunte temples,

    that's in a town, there's bound to be a bus (presumably from Campobello di Mazara)

    or Sciacca).

    The main lines from Palermo to Agrigento and Catania go through the
    interior (you know Enna), which I never visited.

    The station in Agrigento is near the old centre, but the excellent archeological site, as the name "Temple Valley" says, is down in the
    valley.

    I caught the bus

    the site is so big it looks walkable, but after about 15 minutes of not
    being significantly nearer I gave up and waited at the next bus stop

    I wouldn't even consider walking now.

    I do not know about transport connections to Piazza Armerina, nor about
    the distance to the roman Villa del Casale (which has an impressive collection of floor mosaics).

    Another main line goes from Messina to Catania and Siracusa. It stops at Taormina (but the city is up on a hill)

    I stayed in the cheep and awful hotel opposite the station

    and walked up the hill more than once

    but isn't there a cable car or something now?

    and Acireale. I guess not very frequent (when we had a conference at Capo Mulini, I preferred to take the tour to Etna rather than going myself by train to Siracusa).

    Two things I never done in that area are the railways tour around Etna
    with the Circumetnea railway, and the visit to the Alcantara gorges.

    Siracusa has a nice archeological area.

    don't you just hate the way that Americans pronounce this town's name :-)

    tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Martin@21:1/5 to Ken Blake on Wed Jul 12 17:59:04 2017
    On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 07:55:18 -0700, Ken Blake <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote:

    <snip>

    Can you sleep on overnight trains? Fine, if you can. But I can't. I
    find sleeping in a seat uncomfortable, and besides, I worry about
    thievery if I'm asleep.

    I can't either. The motion kept me awake and I worried about waking up on the side of the track as happened to a French colleague travelling from Paris to Toulouse. A bomb exploded in the next compartment. One night in a sleeper was more than enough for me.
    If I had known there was ferry from Naples to Sicily, when I was in Sorrento, I think I would have taken it,
    --

    Martin in Zuid Holland

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  • From Jack Campin@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 13 00:49:25 2017
    Can you sleep on overnight trains? Fine, if you can. But I can't. I
    find sleeping in a seat uncomfortable, and besides, I worry about
    thievery if I'm asleep.

    I can usually sleep on anything with wheels. And the night sleeper
    train from Budapest to Romania was the most comfortable I've ever
    used. But I got one of my worst nights sleep ever on it - partly
    the immense fuss about the border control, but more because the guy
    I was sharing a compartment with was chain-slugging Red Bull and
    arranging amphetamine deals on his mobile all night.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland mobile 07895 860 060 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From tim...@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 13 08:24:01 2017
    "Surreyman" <alanspencer3@googlemail.com> wrote in message news:e241dbd0-c5a3-448c-bfae-b38f35911c1e@googlegroups.com...
    Well, it's the long version or the short version! We'll keep to the latter pro tem.

    Our normal travelling is usually very much DIY. So, based in the east in Taormina, we had sketched out two weeks in May of moving around most
    sights in the island.
    However - thank you travel industry - we were advised with far too little notice that G7, of which we'd never heard, was causing a lockdown and cancellation of all hotel reservations in Taormina for the duration.

    We wanted to stay with the hotel carefully chosen (within all this was a family celebration) so we ended up in Taormina a month late, and in uncustomary heat and humidity (even for Sicily!) that foreshortened too
    much activity.
    So we stayed centred in the east, cut our various overnighting stays
    planned in the west and, in the reduced 'charging around' time relied on conducted tours more than we usually would.

    Here's a precis of some notes I sent to a friend who's also shortly
    visiting for the first time.

    Aeolian islands: Beautiful. Get cruises for the day from the port near Messina. Do include the version that stands off at sea in the dark of the evening so that you can watch Stromboli erupting - we saw 4 good
    bangs/flames within 45 minutes. Great stuff!

    Etna: Can't be missed - we were very lucky and apart from heat haze had exceptional views. Depending on your preference you can stop at the end of the road access (with views up towards the main craters, plus small old craters nearby to look at), or go on the cable car rather higher, and then take 'jeep coaches' higher still, and then move as high as the guides will let you trek depending on volcanic action. Your choice! We saw copious
    smoke action from two top craters plus some black ash eruption. Marvellous day!

    Syracuse: Its history is rather more interesting than what is left (!)
    but nevertheless well worth walking around if you have spare time. Good
    stuff from ancient Greek to Roman/Byzantine/Norman and later, but
    relatively sparse. A half-day conducted walk would ensure you saw the highlights.

    Taormina: Our base, which proved exceptionally good for that, and very attractively sited below Etna. It appears on numerous excursions from
    other parts of Sicily, but I wouldn't have thought it was worth any significant diversion by travellers unless close anyway, but it's
    certainly very pleasant, with several good mediaeval piazzas.


    All the above using locally arranged day trips?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From tim...@21:1/5 to Ken Blake on Thu Jul 13 08:22:05 2017
    "Ken Blake" <Ken@invalid.news.com> wrote in message news:1rdcmc1o9221sb1th6lhuuc1hd963p3124@4ax.com...
    On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 09:23:59 +0100, "tim..." <tims_new_home@yahoo.com>
    wrote:





    Can you sleep on overnight trains?

    not in a seat

    but passably in whatever passes for beds on current services

    you have to pay more for that, of course, but no more than the ferry costs.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Giovanni Drogo@21:1/5 to tim... on Thu Jul 13 10:09:34 2017
    On Wed, 12 Jul 2017, tim... wrote:

    I scheduled a two week holiday which I spent in the very south of
    Italy and on the Island - travelling by train.

    You were very brave (*). The sicilian railways have poor fame (slow
    and unfrequent), apparently the locals prefer buses.

    (*) or are you a railway fan ?

    I was 24, "poor" and with zero experience of driving on the wrong side
    of the road, and IME (as a pedestrian) Italy is not the best choice of
    county to change that - I have still never driven there.

    So more or less my age. When I just graduated I went to my first
    conference (in Cape Sounion) with train Milan-Ancona, ferry to Patras
    and bus to Athens.

    Actually I don't drive anywhere (don't have a driving license), I have travelled a lot by public transport anywhere north of the Alps
    (northernmost spots Narvik and Inverness), and in Lombardy, Marche,
    Tuscany (even when planning implied to go the bus station and looking up
    the timetable).

    I may be biased in not considering Sicily a public transport friendly
    area. After all, in the Montalbano stories, Livia often gets to Vigata
    by bus when he forgets to pick her up at the airport :-)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Giovanni Drogo@21:1/5 to tim... on Thu Jul 13 11:07:46 2017
    On Wed, 12 Jul 2017, tim... wrote:

    a van). The islands (Vulcano, Lipari, Panarea and Stromboli are the ones >> I visited, the others are farther) are definitely worth visiting.

    I hadn't really considered visiting the Islands

    The ferries don't seem to be overly helpful when visiting for a day
    trip, but accommodation on the islands is so limited that you really
    have plan ahead to get it right

    spending 3 or 4 days on these islands definitely works against touring
    by car

    You won't need a car except perhaps on Lipari which is a bit large to be walkable (some 6 km across and hilly), if you want to collect pumice and obsidian.

    Actually there are no cars at all at Panarea (we walked from the harbour
    to the archeological site), and I'm not sure about Stromboli (the two
    inhabited points should not be connected by road). Even Vulcano should
    be walkable.

    As far as I know the boat and hydrofoil service should be acceptable.
    Problem can be rough weather. We were in an organized tour with a small
    group. We went by van from Catania airport to Milazzo (getting an
    impressive thunderstorm on the motorway just as we left the shade of
    Etna), and found all boats were cancelled. Our guide found an hotel at
    Capo d'Orlando, and found that the morning after there was a boat from
    there to Vulcano and Lipari (Italian Touring Club guides usually have a
    budget to cater for situations like these).

    We did a day trip to Vulcano by regular service boat (it's just across
    the strait), and another to Panarea, and Stromboli coming back in the
    evening, but I guess this was a chartered boat (not just for our small
    group, we weren't alone). It stopped off Panarea to let people have a
    swim, and after dinner toured a bit around Stromboli to see
    Strombolicchio and the Sciara (the incline where lava gets down into the
    sea). We had a van to go round Lipari (not the one we left on the
    mainland), and came back by hydrofoil.


    And don't get me started on maps that are orientated the wrong way round

    Don't tell me. I cannot stand the hybrid stuff ATM (the Milan transport
    agency) has placed at tram stops. They are not linear line DIAGRAMS, and
    they aren't regular maps, north up, but sort of Peutingerian maps, long
    and thin, made cutting pieces of regular maps and joining them
    "rectified" along the tram route.

    I've never visited Marsala, the saline (salt flats) and the western
    coast.

    didn't know of the salt flats

    Uh, actually I had to look up the word, so I may have got the wrong one.
    We call them "saline" (plural, sing. "salina"). They are flat areas
    where they let sea water in to evaporate, and then collect the salt.

    The main ones still in use for commercial purpose should be in Puglia.
    I guess the ones near Trapani are also still active, but part of them is
    a museum/park. So for the smaller ones near Cervia (northern Adriatic),
    which produce a particularly sweet salt (I am not sure if depends on the concentration of which oligo-element). Some amateurs supporting the salt
    museum in Cervia run "manually" a salina in the old way, and this salt
    is for sale at the museum.

    I heard there are also salt mines in some place in the interior of
    Sicily (should date back to the "Messinian salinity crisis" when
    Gibraltar strait closed and the Mediterranean evaporated)

    The railway line to Castelvetrano (on the southern coast) should have a
    stop near the Segesta temple (but I guess a fair walk).

    would that be the stop called Segesta tempio?

    the name makes sense, I cannot locate it on google maps. I'll try
    openstreetmap (rather good at computing walking paths though
    underestimates walking time) or openrailwaymap

    hmm, according to openrailwaymap that's tagged "abandoned track", but Calatafimi looks near, wikipedia lists Segesta Tempio as in use, but https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrovia_Palermo-Trapani says "service interrupted"

    Hmm ... actually zooming in on openrailwampa one sees that the
    "abandoned track" goes south through "Calatafimi-Segesta", but
    Calatafimi station is on the east and Segesta Tempio to the north of the archeological area ... but on the suspended service line ! :-(

    Some other site quotes a "Tarantola Bus" company.

    Oh, looking on DB I see that all the Trapani services are via
    Castelvetrano, so the direct line's not still open

    I tend also to use a DB site to get railway timetables across all
    Europe, though one has to use the Trenitalia site to get tickets (but
    that mainly for Le Frecce, "the arrows" i.e. the high speed trains,
    which haven't got south of Naples), but I found instead useful this site http://www.rfi.it/rfi.html (RFI is the owner of the infrastructure,
    rails and station). If you click on "Quadri orario online" you can get a
    pdf of the arrival and departure timetables of each individual stations, exactly the ones present in the station.

    http://www.viaggiatreno.it is instead the utility to get real time
    situation of trains (both long distance, and by region). For Lombardy,
    where Trenord runs regional train, the qeuivalent service is http://www.my-link.it/mylink/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From tim...@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 13 11:57:13 2017
    "Giovanni Drogo" <drogo@rn.bastiani.ta.invalid> wrote in message news:alpine.LSU.2.00.1707131010310.25294@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg...
    On Wed, 12 Jul 2017, tim... wrote:

    a van). The islands (Vulcano, Lipari, Panarea and Stromboli are the
    ones
    I visited, the others are farther) are definitely worth visiting.

    I hadn't really considered visiting the Islands

    The ferries don't seem to be overly helpful when visiting for a day trip,
    but accommodation on the islands is so limited that you really have plan
    ahead to get it right

    spending 3 or 4 days on these islands definitely works against touring by
    car

    You won't need a car except perhaps on Lipari which is a bit large to be walkable (some 6 km across and hilly), if you want to collect pumice and obsidian.

    no I didn't mean taking the car to the Islands

    I meant that having to leave the car on the dock side for 3 or 4 days
    negates against the option of hiring it in the first place

    that's 3/4 days you are paying for not using it.

    Actually there are no cars at all at Panarea (we walked from the harbour
    to the archeological site), and I'm not sure about Stromboli (the two inhabited points should not be connected by road). Even Vulcano should be walkable.

    As far as I know the boat and hydrofoil service should be acceptable.
    Problem can be rough weather. We were in an organized tour with a small group. We went by van from Catania airport to Milazzo (getting an
    impressive thunderstorm on the motorway just as we left the shade of
    Etna), and found all boats were cancelled. Our guide found an hotel at
    Capo d'Orlando, and found that the morning after there was a boat from
    there to Vulcano and Lipari (Italian Touring Club guides usually have a budget to cater for situations like these).

    We did a day trip to Vulcano by regular service boat (it's just across the strait), and another to Panarea, and Stromboli coming back in the evening, but I guess this was a chartered boat (not just for our small group, we weren't alone). It stopped off Panarea to let people have a swim, and
    after dinner toured a bit around Stromboli to see Strombolicchio and the Sciara (the incline where lava gets down into the sea). We had a van to go round Lipari (not the one we left on the mainland), and came back by hydrofoil.


    And don't get me started on maps that are orientated the wrong way round

    Don't tell me. I cannot stand the hybrid stuff ATM (the Milan transport agency) has placed at tram stops. They are not linear line DIAGRAMS, and
    they aren't regular maps, north up, but sort of Peutingerian maps, long
    and thin, made cutting pieces of regular maps and joining them "rectified" along the tram route.

    I've never visited Marsala, the saline (salt flats) and the western
    coast.

    didn't know of the salt flats

    Uh, actually I had to look up the word, so I may have got the wrong one.
    We call them "saline" (plural, sing. "salina"). They are flat areas where they let sea water in to evaporate, and then collect the salt.

    I did wonder

    salt pans is probably the correct terminology

    salt flats are a natural phenomena, like the ones in Utah that are renowned
    for testing race cars

    more pristine ones that are easily visited can be found in Tunisia

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Surreyman@21:1/5 to tim... on Thu Jul 13 05:13:27 2017
    On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 8:24:54 AM UTC+1, tim... wrote:
    "Surreyman" <alanspencer3@googlemail.com> wrote in message news:e241dbd0-c5a3-448c-bfae-b38f35911c1e@googlegroups.com...
    Well, it's the long version or the short version! We'll keep to the latter pro tem.

    Our normal travelling is usually very much DIY. So, based in the east in Taormina, we had sketched out two weeks in May of moving around most
    sights in the island.
    However - thank you travel industry - we were advised with far too little notice that G7, of which we'd never heard, was causing a lockdown and cancellation of all hotel reservations in Taormina for the duration.

    We wanted to stay with the hotel carefully chosen (within all this was a family celebration) so we ended up in Taormina a month late, and in uncustomary heat and humidity (even for Sicily!) that foreshortened too much activity.
    So we stayed centred in the east, cut our various overnighting stays planned in the west and, in the reduced 'charging around' time relied on conducted tours more than we usually would.

    Here's a precis of some notes I sent to a friend who's also shortly visiting for the first time.

    Aeolian islands: Beautiful. Get cruises for the day from the port near Messina. Do include the version that stands off at sea in the dark of the evening so that you can watch Stromboli erupting - we saw 4 good bangs/flames within 45 minutes. Great stuff!

    Etna: Can't be missed - we were very lucky and apart from heat haze had exceptional views. Depending on your preference you can stop at the end of the road access (with views up towards the main craters, plus small old craters nearby to look at), or go on the cable car rather higher, and then take 'jeep coaches' higher still, and then move as high as the guides will let you trek depending on volcanic action. Your choice! We saw copious smoke action from two top craters plus some black ash eruption. Marvellous day!

    Syracuse: Its history is rather more interesting than what is left (!)
    but nevertheless well worth walking around if you have spare time. Good stuff from ancient Greek to Roman/Byzantine/Norman and later, but relatively sparse. A half-day conducted walk would ensure you saw the highlights.

    Taormina: Our base, which proved exceptionally good for that, and very attractively sited below Etna. It appears on numerous excursions from
    other parts of Sicily, but I wouldn't have thought it was worth any significant diversion by travellers unless close anyway, but it's
    certainly very pleasant, with several good mediaeval piazzas.


    All the above using locally arranged day trips?

    Aeolians, Syracuse & Etna, yep.
    All other Taormina area and hill villages under our own steam - buses, cars.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Martin@21:1/5 to drogo@rn.bastiani.ta.invalid on Thu Jul 13 12:24:08 2017
    On Thu, 13 Jul 2017 11:07:46 +0200, Giovanni Drogo <drogo@rn.bastiani.ta.invalid> wrote:

    On Wed, 12 Jul 2017, tim... wrote:

    I've never visited Marsala, the saline (salt flats) and the western
    coast.

    didn't know of the salt flats

    Uh, actually I had to look up the word, so I may have got the wrong one.
    We call them "saline" (plural, sing. "salina"). They are flat areas
    where they let sea water in to evaporate, and then collect the salt.

    Salt pans.
    --

    Martin in Zuid Holland

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From tim...@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jul 13 19:50:02 2017
    "Surreyman" <alanspencer3@googlemail.com> wrote in message news:86c1be2a-6915-4a22-b3e5-60e79d08f23b@googlegroups.com...
    On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 8:24:54 AM UTC+1, tim... wrote:
    "Surreyman" <alanspencer3@googlemail.com> wrote in message
    news:e241dbd0-c5a3-448c-bfae-b38f35911c1e@googlegroups.com...
    Well, it's the long version or the short version! We'll keep to the
    latter
    pro tem.

    Our normal travelling is usually very much DIY. So, based in the east
    in
    Taormina, we had sketched out two weeks in May of moving around most
    sights in the island.
    However - thank you travel industry - we were advised with far too
    little
    notice that G7, of which we'd never heard, was causing a lockdown and
    cancellation of all hotel reservations in Taormina for the duration.

    We wanted to stay with the hotel carefully chosen (within all this was
    a
    family celebration) so we ended up in Taormina a month late, and in
    uncustomary heat and humidity (even for Sicily!) that foreshortened too
    much activity.
    So we stayed centred in the east, cut our various overnighting stays
    planned in the west and, in the reduced 'charging around' time relied
    on
    conducted tours more than we usually would.

    Here's a precis of some notes I sent to a friend who's also shortly
    visiting for the first time.

    Aeolian islands: Beautiful. Get cruises for the day from the port near
    Messina. Do include the version that stands off at sea in the dark of
    the
    evening so that you can watch Stromboli erupting - we saw 4 good
    bangs/flames within 45 minutes. Great stuff!

    Etna: Can't be missed - we were very lucky and apart from heat haze had
    exceptional views. Depending on your preference you can stop at the end
    of
    the road access (with views up towards the main craters, plus small old
    craters nearby to look at), or go on the cable car rather higher, and
    then
    take 'jeep coaches' higher still, and then move as high as the guides
    will
    let you trek depending on volcanic action. Your choice! We saw copious
    smoke action from two top craters plus some black ash eruption.
    Marvellous
    day!

    Syracuse: Its history is rather more interesting than what is left (!)
    but nevertheless well worth walking around if you have spare time. Good
    stuff from ancient Greek to Roman/Byzantine/Norman and later, but
    relatively sparse. A half-day conducted walk would ensure you saw the
    highlights.

    Taormina: Our base, which proved exceptionally good for that, and very
    attractively sited below Etna. It appears on numerous excursions from
    other parts of Sicily, but I wouldn't have thought it was worth any
    significant diversion by travellers unless close anyway, but it's
    certainly very pleasant, with several good mediaeval piazzas.


    All the above using locally arranged day trips?

    Aeolians, Syracuse & Etna, yep.

    okey dokey

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Sheila Page@21:1/5 to Giovanni Drogo on Fri Jul 14 10:51:03 2017
    In message
    <alpine.LSU.2.00.1707131010310.25294@cbfrvqba.ynzoengr.vans.vg>,
    Giovanni Drogo <drogo@rn.bastiani.ta.invalid> writes
    On Wed, 12 Jul 2017, tim... wrote:

    a van). The islands (Vulcano, Lipari, Panarea and Stromboli are the ones >>> I visited, the others are farther) are definitely worth visiting.

    I hadn't really considered visiting the Islands

    The ferries don't seem to be overly helpful when visiting for a day
    trip, but accommodation on the islands is so limited that you really
    have plan ahead to get it right

    spending 3 or 4 days on these islands definitely works against
    touring by car

    You won't need a car except perhaps on Lipari which is a bit large to
    be walkable (some 6 km across and hilly), if you want to collect pumice
    and obsidian.

    Actually there are no cars at all at Panarea (we walked from the
    harbour to the archeological site), and I'm not sure about Stromboli
    (the two inhabited points should not be connected by road). Even
    Vulcano should be walkable.

    As far as I know the boat and hydrofoil service should be acceptable.
    Problem can be rough weather. We were in an organized tour with a small >group. We went by van from Catania airport to Milazzo (getting an
    impressive thunderstorm on the motorway just as we left the shade of
    Etna), and found all boats were cancelled. Our guide found an hotel at
    Capo d'Orlando, and found that the morning after there was a boat from
    there to Vulcano and Lipari (Italian Touring Club guides usually have a >budget to cater for situations like these).

    We did a day trip to Vulcano by regular service boat (it's just across
    the strait), and another to Panarea, and Stromboli coming back in the >evening, but I guess this was a chartered boat (not just for our small
    group, we weren't alone). It stopped off Panarea to let people have a
    swim, and after dinner toured a bit around Stromboli to see
    Strombolicchio and the Sciara (the incline where lava gets down into
    the sea). We had a van to go round Lipari (not the one we left on the >mainland), and came back by hydrofoil.


    And don't get me started on maps that are orientated the wrong way round

    Don't tell me. I cannot stand the hybrid stuff ATM (the Milan transport >agency) has placed at tram stops. They are not linear line DIAGRAMS,
    and they aren't regular maps, north up, but sort of Peutingerian maps,
    long and thin, made cutting pieces of regular maps and joining them >"rectified" along the tram route.

    I've never visited Marsala, the saline (salt flats) and the western
    coast.

    didn't know of the salt flats

    Uh, actually I had to look up the word, so I may have got the wrong
    one. We call them "saline" (plural, sing. "salina"). They are flat
    areas where they let sea water in to evaporate, and then collect the
    salt.

    The main ones still in use for commercial purpose should be in Puglia.
    I guess the ones near Trapani are also still active, but part of them
    is a museum/park. So for the smaller ones near Cervia (northern
    Adriatic), which produce a particularly sweet salt (I am not sure if
    depends on the concentration of which oligo-element). Some amateurs >supporting the salt museum in Cervia run "manually" a salina in the old
    way, and this salt is for sale at the museum.

    I heard there are also salt mines in some place in the interior of
    Sicily (should date back to the "Messinian salinity crisis" when
    Gibraltar strait closed and the Mediterranean evaporated)

    The railway line to Castelvetrano (on the southern coast) should have a >>> stop near the Segesta temple (but I guess a fair walk).

    would that be the stop called Segesta tempio?

    the name makes sense, I cannot locate it on google maps. I'll try >openstreetmap (rather good at computing walking paths though
    underestimates walking time) or openrailwaymap

    hmm, according to openrailwaymap that's tagged "abandoned track", but >Calatafimi looks near, wikipedia lists Segesta Tempio as in use, but >https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrovia_Palermo-Trapani says "service >interrupted"

    Hmm ... actually zooming in on openrailwampa one sees that the
    "abandoned track" goes south through "Calatafimi-Segesta", but
    Calatafimi station is on the east and Segesta Tempio to the north of
    the archeological area ... but on the suspended service line ! :-(

    Some other site quotes a "Tarantola Bus" company.

    Oh, looking on DB I see that all the Trapani services are via >>Castelvetrano, so the direct line's not still open

    I tend also to use a DB site to get railway timetables across all
    Europe, though one has to use the Trenitalia site to get tickets (but
    that mainly for Le Frecce, "the arrows" i.e. the high speed trains,
    which haven't got south of Naples), but I found instead useful this site >http://www.rfi.it/rfi.html (RFI is the owner of the infrastructure,
    rails and station). If you click on "Quadri orario online" you can get
    a pdf of the arrival and departure timetables of each individual
    stations, exactly the ones present in the station.

    http://www.viaggiatreno.it is instead the utility to get real time
    situation of trains (both long distance, and by region). For Lombardy,
    where Trenord runs regional train, the qeuivalent service is >http://www.my-link.it/mylink/

    Just a thank you to you and others in this thread for all the
    information.


    --
    ---
    Sheila Page

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  • From Paul Aubrin@21:1/5 to Simon Laub on Sun Jul 16 06:07:24 2017
    XPost: talk.politics.european-union

    On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 16:54:45 +0200, Simon Laub wrote:

    Have just returned from a trip to Andalucia.
    Lots of impressions to pass on, but, sadly, not much activity in rec.travel.european these days? I.e. not that many to pass the story on
    to?
    Nevertheless, I'll give it a go:

    Shortly: Andalucia has certainly been influenced by a lot of people over
    the centuries.
    From roman emperors, onwards to muslim caliphates,
    followed by Viking raids (Vikings who later settle in the area, selling cheese) and forward to Spanish kings,
    who started expeditions to the rest of the world from the Andalician heartland.
    Between all the wars you certainly don't get the impression that the
    past was such a glorious time of stability that you sometimes see it portrayed as in the media ...

    But, well, the land is still there.
    And well worth a visit.

    You can see some pictures from my trip here: http://www.simonlaub.net/Fortunecity/Andalucia2017/index.html

    best wishes -Simon

    Andaluces de Jaen
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unVF1tAALUk
    Miguel Hernandez 1937
    Paco Ibanez.

    Another version.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNpXVzCwvjs

    Andaluces de Jaén,
    aceituneros altivos,
    decidme en el alma: ¿quién,
    quién levantó los olivos?

    No los levantó la nada,
    ni el dinero, ni el señor,
    sino la tierra callada,
    el trabajo y el sudor.

    Unidos al agua pura
    y a los planetas unidos,
    los tres dieron la hermosura
    de los troncos retorcidos.

    Levántate, olivo cano,
    dijeron al pie del viento.
    Y el olivo alzó una mano
    poderosa de cimiento.

    Andaluces de Jaén,
    aceituneros altivos,
    decidme en el alma: ¿quién
    amamantó los olivos?

    Vuestra sangre, vuestra vida,
    no la del explotador
    que se enriqueció en la herida
    generosa del sudor.

    No la del terrateniente
    que os sepultó en la pobreza,
    que os pisoteó la frente,
    que os redujo la cabeza.

    Árboles que vuestro afán
    consagró al centro del día
    eran principio de un pan
    que sólo el otro comía.

    ¡Cuántos siglos de aceituna,
    los pies y las manos presos,
    sol a sol y luna a luna,
    pesan sobre vuestros huesos!

    Andaluces de Jaén,
    aceituneros altivos,
    pregunta mi alma: ¿de quién,
    de quién son estos olivos?

    Jaén, levántate brava
    sobre tus piedras lunares,
    no vayas a ser esclava
    con todos tus olivares.

    Dentro de la claridad
    del aceite y sus aromas,
    indican tu libertad
    la libertad de tus lomas.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Ulf.Kutzner@web.de@21:1/5 to All on Sun Jul 16 10:18:18 2017
    Am Dienstag, 11. Juli 2017 21:36:20 UTC+2 schrieb tim...:

    I first (and only) visited Sicily in 82 when I was working a year in Italy

    This was pre internet, without a guide book, flying by the seat of my pants stuff

    I knew a few places that I had to go to: Mt Etna, Agrigento, Palermo etc

    I scheduled a two week holiday which I spent in the very south of Italy and on the Island - travelling by train. It was November BTW, glorious weather all week, though it did piss down the previous week when I had been in
    Naples :-(

    I'm sure that I missed some places. I remember that I got the train to
    Enna, fully expecting that if the station wasn't in the town centre (it
    isn't by about 5 km) there would be as bus as the had been at *every* other random Italian town that I had visited. But there wasn't and still isn't (actually I found a web site that says that there us, but there are no bus stops on street view!) - and there isn't even a sign of a taxi rank, though no doubt there's now a phone number on the wall that you can ring with your mobile - something that I, of course, didn't have in 82.

    Now, with 35 years of traveling experience behind me, I think I should go back and fill in the gaps.

    I'm minded to hire a car, but I am concerned by the overly cheap prices that are charged and whether it is possible to avoid all the scams that you read of to bump up the costs when you get there.

    Or I can again go by train (and bus) though this time using the internet to plan properly.

    Although the Train Station has not been included to
    the local bus network http://wwwnew.saisautolinee.it/public/userFiles/Servizi-Urbani/Mappa-S.U..pdf
    http://wwwnew.saisautolinee.it/?cmd=orari Shows
    Solutions for weekdays if entering/choosing Enna F.S. as the first
    and Enna as second point.

    Regards, ULF

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  • From tim...@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jul 17 10:19:16 2017
    <Ulf.Kutzner@web.de> wrote in message news:274356f7-a622-4b23-88a5-2ec431d3aca0@googlegroups.com...
    Am Dienstag, 11. Juli 2017 21:36:20 UTC+2 schrieb tim...:

    I first (and only) visited Sicily in 82 when I was working a year in
    Italy

    This was pre internet, without a guide book, flying by the seat of my
    pants
    stuff

    I knew a few places that I had to go to: Mt Etna, Agrigento, Palermo etc

    I scheduled a two week holiday which I spent in the very south of Italy
    and
    on the Island - travelling by train. It was November BTW, glorious
    weather
    all week, though it did piss down the previous week when I had been in
    Naples :-(

    I'm sure that I missed some places. I remember that I got the train to
    Enna, fully expecting that if the station wasn't in the town centre (it
    isn't by about 5 km) there would be as bus as the had been at *every*
    other
    random Italian town that I had visited. But there wasn't and still isn't
    (actually I found a web site that says that there us, but there are no
    bus
    stops on street view!) - and there isn't even a sign of a taxi rank,
    though
    no doubt there's now a phone number on the wall that you can ring with
    your
    mobile - something that I, of course, didn't have in 82.

    Now, with 35 years of traveling experience behind me, I think I should go
    back and fill in the gaps.

    I'm minded to hire a car, but I am concerned by the overly cheap prices
    that
    are charged and whether it is possible to avoid all the scams that you
    read
    of to bump up the costs when you get there.

    Or I can again go by train (and bus) though this time using the internet
    to
    plan properly.

    Although the Train Station has not been included to
    the local bus network http://wwwnew.saisautolinee.it/public/userFiles/Servizi-Urbani/Mappa-S.U..pdf

    well no it wouldn't because it is miles from the town with no built up area
    in between (but i didn't know that at the time) so unlikely to be a frequent city bus.

    As someone else said, it's not an immediately obvious tourist destination so
    no hoards of tourists arriving at the station wanting to get to the remote
    city (as there are at Assisi, say)

    http://wwwnew.saisautolinee.it/?cmd=orari Shows
    Solutions for weekdays if entering/choosing Enna F.S. as the first
    and Enna as second point.

    OK thanks

    not that the resulting 2 buses a day (3 on schooldays) is useful :-)

    I did actually find information on long distance busses and saw that there
    are a few a day from the larger towns on the island. So if I decide to
    include it in my destination list, that is the way to go

    tim

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  • From Surreyman@21:1/5 to tim... on Tue Jul 25 01:25:09 2017
    On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 7:50:56 PM UTC+1, tim... wrote:
    "Surreyman" <alanspencer3@googlemail.com> wrote in message news:86c1be2a-6915-4a22-b3e5-60e79d08f23b@googlegroups.com...
    On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 8:24:54 AM UTC+1, tim... wrote:
    "Surreyman" <alanspencer3@googlemail.com> wrote in message
    news:e241dbd0-c5a3-448c-bfae-b38f35911c1e@googlegroups.com...
    Well, it's the long version or the short version! We'll keep to the
    latter
    pro tem.

    Our normal travelling is usually very much DIY. So, based in the east >> > in
    Taormina, we had sketched out two weeks in May of moving around most
    sights in the island.
    However - thank you travel industry - we were advised with far too
    little
    notice that G7, of which we'd never heard, was causing a lockdown and
    cancellation of all hotel reservations in Taormina for the duration.

    We wanted to stay with the hotel carefully chosen (within all this was >> > a
    family celebration) so we ended up in Taormina a month late, and in
    uncustomary heat and humidity (even for Sicily!) that foreshortened too >> > much activity.
    So we stayed centred in the east, cut our various overnighting stays
    planned in the west and, in the reduced 'charging around' time relied >> > on
    conducted tours more than we usually would.

    Here's a precis of some notes I sent to a friend who's also shortly
    visiting for the first time.

    Aeolian islands: Beautiful. Get cruises for the day from the port near >> > Messina. Do include the version that stands off at sea in the dark of >> > the
    evening so that you can watch Stromboli erupting - we saw 4 good
    bangs/flames within 45 minutes. Great stuff!

    Etna: Can't be missed - we were very lucky and apart from heat haze had >> > exceptional views. Depending on your preference you can stop at the end >> > of
    the road access (with views up towards the main craters, plus small old >> > craters nearby to look at), or go on the cable car rather higher, and >> > then
    take 'jeep coaches' higher still, and then move as high as the guides >> > will
    let you trek depending on volcanic action. Your choice! We saw copious >> > smoke action from two top craters plus some black ash eruption.
    Marvellous
    day!

    Syracuse: Its history is rather more interesting than what is left (!) >> > but nevertheless well worth walking around if you have spare time. Good >> > stuff from ancient Greek to Roman/Byzantine/Norman and later, but
    relatively sparse. A half-day conducted walk would ensure you saw the
    highlights.

    Taormina: Our base, which proved exceptionally good for that, and very >> > attractively sited below Etna. It appears on numerous excursions from
    other parts of Sicily, but I wouldn't have thought it was worth any
    significant diversion by travellers unless close anyway, but it's
    certainly very pleasant, with several good mediaeval piazzas.


    All the above using locally arranged day trips?

    Aeolians, Syracuse & Etna, yep.

    okey dokey

    Not as 'touristy' as it might sound.
    Bearing in mind that we rarely hire cars ...
    Aeolians visits are largely by the same ferries anyway.
    Etna, to see various other aspects en route, would be difficult via public transport.
    Syracuse area sites are spread out and favour personal transport of whatever type.
    Using public transport for all these visits might have saved some cash (not our primary concern) but otherwise would have added little. We're all for 'local flavour' (using dolmeshes in Turkey etc.), but not if it unnecessarily complicates just getting
    from A to B.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From tim...@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jul 25 12:24:53 2017
    "Surreyman" <alanspencer3@googlemail.com> wrote in message news:ae1ec976-98bd-4c82-81d2-22c9ae4eed41@googlegroups.com...
    On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 7:50:56 PM UTC+1, tim... wrote:
    "Surreyman" <alanspencer3@googlemail.com> wrote in message
    news:86c1be2a-6915-4a22-b3e5-60e79d08f23b@googlegroups.com...
    On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 8:24:54 AM UTC+1, tim... wrote:
    "Surreyman" <alanspencer3@googlemail.com> wrote in message
    news:e241dbd0-c5a3-448c-bfae-b38f35911c1e@googlegroups.com...
    Well, it's the long version or the short version! We'll keep to the
    latter
    pro tem.

    Our normal travelling is usually very much DIY. So, based in the
    east
    in
    Taormina, we had sketched out two weeks in May of moving around most
    sights in the island.
    However - thank you travel industry - we were advised with far too
    little
    notice that G7, of which we'd never heard, was causing a lockdown
    and
    cancellation of all hotel reservations in Taormina for the duration.

    We wanted to stay with the hotel carefully chosen (within all this
    was
    a
    family celebration) so we ended up in Taormina a month late, and in
    uncustomary heat and humidity (even for Sicily!) that foreshortened
    too
    much activity.
    So we stayed centred in the east, cut our various overnighting stays
    planned in the west and, in the reduced 'charging around' time
    relied
    on
    conducted tours more than we usually would.

    Here's a precis of some notes I sent to a friend who's also shortly
    visiting for the first time.

    Aeolian islands: Beautiful. Get cruises for the day from the port
    near
    Messina. Do include the version that stands off at sea in the dark
    of
    the
    evening so that you can watch Stromboli erupting - we saw 4 good
    bangs/flames within 45 minutes. Great stuff!

    Etna: Can't be missed - we were very lucky and apart from heat haze
    had
    exceptional views. Depending on your preference you can stop at the
    end
    of
    the road access (with views up towards the main craters, plus small
    old
    craters nearby to look at), or go on the cable car rather higher,
    and
    then
    take 'jeep coaches' higher still, and then move as high as the
    guides
    will
    let you trek depending on volcanic action. Your choice! We saw
    copious
    smoke action from two top craters plus some black ash eruption.
    Marvellous
    day!

    Syracuse: Its history is rather more interesting than what is left
    (!)
    but nevertheless well worth walking around if you have spare time.
    Good
    stuff from ancient Greek to Roman/Byzantine/Norman and later, but
    relatively sparse. A half-day conducted walk would ensure you saw
    the
    highlights.

    Taormina: Our base, which proved exceptionally good for that, and
    very
    attractively sited below Etna. It appears on numerous excursions
    from
    other parts of Sicily, but I wouldn't have thought it was worth any
    significant diversion by travellers unless close anyway, but it's
    certainly very pleasant, with several good mediaeval piazzas.


    All the above using locally arranged day trips?

    Aeolians, Syracuse & Etna, yep.

    okey dokey

    Not as 'touristy' as it might sound.
    Bearing in mind that we rarely hire cars ...

    It's just that I am wary of hiring a car in these places where the headline price has been dumned down by online booking sites

    It's just not credible that 8 pounds per day is a viable price, even off
    season when the company has spare cars because they are stocked up for peak demand.

    And I've been stuffed before by a dishonest hire company (with an
    international brand name)

    tim

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Surreyman@21:1/5 to tim... on Wed Jul 26 02:35:40 2017
    On Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 12:25:49 PM UTC+1, tim... wrote:
    "Surreyman" <alanspencer3@googlemail.com> wrote in message news:ae1ec976-98bd-4c82-81d2-22c9ae4eed41@googlegroups.com...
    On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 7:50:56 PM UTC+1, tim... wrote:
    "Surreyman" <alanspencer3@googlemail.com> wrote in message
    news:86c1be2a-6915-4a22-b3e5-60e79d08f23b@googlegroups.com...
    On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 8:24:54 AM UTC+1, tim... wrote:
    "Surreyman" <alanspencer3@googlemail.com> wrote in message
    news:e241dbd0-c5a3-448c-bfae-b38f35911c1e@googlegroups.com...
    Well, it's the long version or the short version! We'll keep to the >> >> > latter
    pro tem.

    Our normal travelling is usually very much DIY. So, based in the
    east
    in
    Taormina, we had sketched out two weeks in May of moving around most >> >> > sights in the island.
    However - thank you travel industry - we were advised with far too
    little
    notice that G7, of which we'd never heard, was causing a lockdown
    and
    cancellation of all hotel reservations in Taormina for the duration. >> >> >
    We wanted to stay with the hotel carefully chosen (within all this
    was
    a
    family celebration) so we ended up in Taormina a month late, and in >> >> > uncustomary heat and humidity (even for Sicily!) that foreshortened >> >> > too
    much activity.
    So we stayed centred in the east, cut our various overnighting stays >> >> > planned in the west and, in the reduced 'charging around' time
    relied
    on
    conducted tours more than we usually would.

    Here's a precis of some notes I sent to a friend who's also shortly >> >> > visiting for the first time.

    Aeolian islands: Beautiful. Get cruises for the day from the port
    near
    Messina. Do include the version that stands off at sea in the dark
    of
    the
    evening so that you can watch Stromboli erupting - we saw 4 good
    bangs/flames within 45 minutes. Great stuff!

    Etna: Can't be missed - we were very lucky and apart from heat haze >> >> > had
    exceptional views. Depending on your preference you can stop at the >> >> > end
    of
    the road access (with views up towards the main craters, plus small >> >> > old
    craters nearby to look at), or go on the cable car rather higher,
    and
    then
    take 'jeep coaches' higher still, and then move as high as the
    guides
    will
    let you trek depending on volcanic action. Your choice! We saw
    copious
    smoke action from two top craters plus some black ash eruption.
    Marvellous
    day!

    Syracuse: Its history is rather more interesting than what is left >> >> > (!)
    but nevertheless well worth walking around if you have spare time.
    Good
    stuff from ancient Greek to Roman/Byzantine/Norman and later, but
    relatively sparse. A half-day conducted walk would ensure you saw
    the
    highlights.

    Taormina: Our base, which proved exceptionally good for that, and
    very
    attractively sited below Etna. It appears on numerous excursions
    from
    other parts of Sicily, but I wouldn't have thought it was worth any >> >> > significant diversion by travellers unless close anyway, but it's
    certainly very pleasant, with several good mediaeval piazzas.


    All the above using locally arranged day trips?

    Aeolians, Syracuse & Etna, yep.

    okey dokey

    Not as 'touristy' as it might sound.
    Bearing in mind that we rarely hire cars ...

    It's just that I am wary of hiring a car in these places where the headline price has been dumned down by online booking sites

    It's just not credible that 8 pounds per day is a viable price, even off season when the company has spare cars because they are stocked up for peak demand.

    And I've been stuffed before by a dishonest hire company (with an international brand name)

    tim

    As I said, we rarely hire cars.
    The alternative we used in Sicily, especially when aiming for out of the way hilltop villages etc., was taxis.
    Very good day rate is negotiable - after half an hour or so and a couple of drinks! - and includes what often becomes a very useful guide.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)