On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a professional driving coach
with a company offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to
people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual gearbox), and a Nissan
370Z, each set up with an auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch
for the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses with roll bar added. >>
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people huge thrills and some
insight into what it's like to drive a car at speed. The day started
under wet conditions, but got a lot better later on until we finished up
on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really struggled to stay within the
limits of grip (in the worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there were only a couple
who I need to prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone
needed some demonstration of just how hard a car will really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about 10 laps as driver.
One very nice lady, a survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in two
of the cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her first go with
me in the Camaro) asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two more
laps to really see what the car could do. I think I gave her a sense for it. >>
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, warming up the car and
also recording some video for tutorial video for the company to offer
for those coming to the next event to actually see what they're supposed
to be seeing when they actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g>
Maybe next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so that you can have fun invoking lift throttle oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a professional driving coach
with a company offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to
people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch
for the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people huge thrills and some insight into what it's like to drive a car at speed. The day started
under wet conditions, but got a lot better later on until we finished up
on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in the worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there were only a couple
who I need to prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone needed some demonstration of just how hard a car will really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about 10 laps as driver.
One very nice lady, a survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in two
of the cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her first go with
me in the Camaro) asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two more
laps to really see what the car could do. I think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, warming up the car and
also recording some video for tutorial video for the company to offer
for those coming to the next event to actually see what they're supposed
to be seeing when they actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in May.
:-)
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a professional driving coach >> with a company offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to
people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual gearbox), and a Nissan >> 370Z, each set up with an auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch
for the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people huge thrills and some
insight into what it's like to drive a car at speed. The day started
under wet conditions, but got a lot better later on until we finished up >> on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really struggled to stay within the >> limits of grip (in the worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there were only a couple
who I need to prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone >> needed some demonstration of just how hard a car will really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about 10 laps as driver.
One very nice lady, a survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in two >> of the cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her first go with >> me in the Camaro) asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two more >> laps to really see what the car could do. I think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, warming up the car and >> also recording some video for tutorial video for the company to offer
for those coming to the next event to actually see what they're supposed >> to be seeing when they actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g>
Maybe next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so that you can
have fun invoking lift throttle oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the track was still wet.
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on oversteer out of the
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a professional driving coach >>>> with a company offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to
people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual gearbox), and a Nissan >>>> 370Z, each set up with an auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch >>>> for the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people huge thrills and some
insight into what it's like to drive a car at speed. The day started
under wet conditions, but got a lot better later on until we finished up >>>> on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really struggled to stay within the >>>> limits of grip (in the worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there were only a couple
who I need to prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone >>>> needed some demonstration of just how hard a car will really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about 10 laps as driver. >>>> One very nice lady, a survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in two >>>> of the cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her first go with >>>> me in the Camaro) asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two more >>>> laps to really see what the car could do. I think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, warming up the car and >>>> also recording some video for tutorial video for the company to offer
for those coming to the next event to actually see what they're supposed >>>> to be seeing when they actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g>
Maybe next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so that you can
have fun invoking lift throttle oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out. >>
Camaro... ...especially when the track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old “engine way in back”
early 911’s were notorious for. Classical instance was too late corner deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end comes out as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a professional driving coach >>>> with a company offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to
people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual gearbox), and a Nissan
370Z, each set up with an auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch >>>> for the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people huge thrills and some >>>> insight into what it's like to drive a car at speed. The day started >>>> under wet conditions, but got a lot better later on until we finished up
on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really struggled to stay within the >>>> limits of grip (in the worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's >>>> throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there were only a couple >>>> who I need to prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone >>>> needed some demonstration of just how hard a car will really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about 10 laps as driver. >>>> One very nice lady, a survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in two >>>> of the cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her first go with
me in the Camaro) asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two more >>>> laps to really see what the car could do. I think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, warming up the car and >>>> also recording some video for tutorial video for the company to offer >>>> for those coming to the next event to actually see what they're supposed
to be seeing when they actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g>
Maybe next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so that you can
have fun invoking lift throttle oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on oversteer out of the
Camaro... ...especially when the track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old “engine way in back”Believe me, I understand that, too!
early 911’s were notorious for. Classical instance was too late corner deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end comes out
as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles, but usually racing cars are closer to the edge of that than most road vehicles.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer rotation and power-pushYup. I teach it.
the nose back to where you want it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a professional driving coach >>>>>> with a company offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to >>>>>> people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual gearbox), and a Nissan
370Z, each set up with an auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch >>>>>> for the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people huge thrills and some >>>>>> insight into what it's like to drive a car at speed. The day started >>>>>> under wet conditions, but got a lot better later on until we finished up >>>>>> on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really struggled to stay within the >>>>>> limits of grip (in the worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's >>>>>> throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there were only a couple >>>>>> who I need to prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone >>>>>> needed some demonstration of just how hard a car will really stop. >>>>>>
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about 10 laps as driver. >>>>>> One very nice lady, a survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in two >>>>>> of the cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her first go with >>>>>> me in the Camaro) asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two more >>>>>> laps to really see what the car could do. I think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, warming up the car and >>>>>> also recording some video for tutorial video for the company to offer >>>>>> for those coming to the next event to actually see what they're supposed >>>>>> to be seeing when they actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g>
Maybe next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so that you can
have fun invoking lift throttle oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on oversteer out of the >>>> Camaro... ...especially when the track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old “engine way in back”
early 911’s were notorious for. Classical instance was too late corner >>> deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end comes out
as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles, but usually
racing cars are closer to the edge of that than most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer rotation and power-push
the nose back to where you want it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a professional driving coach
with a company offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to >>>>>> people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual gearbox), and a Nissan
370Z, each set up with an auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch
for the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people huge thrills and some >>>>>> insight into what it's like to drive a car at speed. The day started >>>>>> under wet conditions, but got a lot better later on until we finished up
on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with instruction. >>>>>>
A few were less timid, but only one really struggled to stay within the
limits of grip (in the worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's >>>>>> throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there were only a couple >>>>>> who I need to prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone
needed some demonstration of just how hard a car will really stop. >>>>>>
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about 10 laps as driver.
One very nice lady, a survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in two
of the cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her first go with
me in the Camaro) asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two more
laps to really see what the car could do. I think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, warming up the car and
also recording some video for tutorial video for the company to offer >>>>>> for those coming to the next event to actually see what they're supposed
to be seeing when they actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g>
Maybe next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so that you can
have fun invoking lift throttle oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on oversteer out of the >>>> Camaro... ...especially when the track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old “engine way in back”
early 911’s were notorious for. Classical instance was too late corner >>> deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end comes out
as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles, but usually
racing cars are closer to the edge of that than most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer rotation and power-push
the nose back to where you want it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.Please.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing... ...but you
tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from the ground).
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:39:31 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a professional driving coach
with a company offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to >>>>>>>> people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual gearbox), and a Nissan
370Z, each set up with an auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch >>>>>>>> for the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people huge thrills and some >>>>>>>> insight into what it's like to drive a car at speed. The day started >>>>>>>> under wet conditions, but got a lot better later on until we finished up
on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with instruction. >>>>>>>>
A few were less timid, but only one really struggled to stay within the
limits of grip (in the worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's >>>>>>>> throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there were only a couple >>>>>>>> who I need to prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone
needed some demonstration of just how hard a car will really stop. >>>>>>>>
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about 10 laps as driver. >>>>>>>> One very nice lady, a survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in two
of the cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her first go with
me in the Camaro) asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two more
laps to really see what the car could do. I think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, warming up the car and
also recording some video for tutorial video for the company to offer >>>>>>>> for those coming to the next event to actually see what they're supposed
to be seeing when they actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g>
Maybe next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so that you can
have fun invoking lift throttle oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on oversteer out of the >>>>>> Camaro... ...especially when the track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old “engine way in back”
early 911’s were notorious for. Classical instance was too late corner >>>>> deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end comes out
as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles, but usually >>>> racing cars are closer to the edge of that than most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer rotation and power-push
the nose back to where you want it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing... ...but you
tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from the ground).
Plus tracks aren’t flat, so there are slope & momentum considerations too.
On 2022-05-21 4:54 a.m., -hh wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:39:31 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a professional driving coach
with a company offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to >>>>>>>> people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual gearbox), and a Nissan
370Z, each set up with an auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch
for the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people huge thrills and some
insight into what it's like to drive a car at speed. The day started
under wet conditions, but got a lot better later on until we finished up
on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with instruction. >>>>>>>>
A few were less timid, but only one really struggled to stay within the
limits of grip (in the worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there were only a couple
who I need to prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone
needed some demonstration of just how hard a car will really stop. >>>>>>>>
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about 10 laps as driver.
One very nice lady, a survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in two
of the cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her first go with
me in the Camaro) asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two more
laps to really see what the car could do. I think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, warming up the car and
also recording some video for tutorial video for the company to offer
for those coming to the next event to actually see what they're supposed
to be seeing when they actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g>
Maybe next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so that you can
have fun invoking lift throttle oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on oversteer out of the
Camaro... ...especially when the track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old “engine way in back”
early 911’s were notorious for. Classical instance was too late corner
deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end comes out
as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles, but usually >>>> racing cars are closer to the edge of that than most road vehicles. >>>>>
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer rotation and power-pushYup. I teach it.
the nose back to where you want it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing... ...but you >> tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from the ground).
Plus tracks aren’t flat, so there are slope & momentum considerations too.To be completely fair, my track is very flat.
But I doubt Tom does much extreme manoeuvring within a few feet of the ground at up to 110mph.
:-)
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 11:01:55 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 4:54 a.m., -hh wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:39:31 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:To be completely fair, my track is very flat.
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan
wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company offering
short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to people
with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual
gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for
the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses
with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people
huge thrills and some insight into what it's like
to drive a car at speed. The day started under wet
conditions, but got a lot better later on until we
finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with
instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in the
worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there
were only a couple who I need to prevent from
spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone needed
some demonstration of just how hard a car will
really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about
10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a survivor
of cancer, who had paid for rides in two of the
cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her
first go with me in the Camaro) asked if she ride
as a passenger with me for two more laps to really
see what the car could do. I think I gave her a
sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own,
warming up the car and also recording some video
for tutorial video for the company to offer for
those coming to the next event to actually see what
they're supposed to be seeing when they actually
get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in
May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe next
time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so
that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the
track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old
“engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious for.
Classical instance was too late corner deceleration
getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end
comes out as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles,
but usually racing cars are closer to the edge of that than
most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer
rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want
it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing...
...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from
the ground).
Plus tracks aren’t flat, so there are slope & momentum
considerations too.
But I doubt Tom does much extreme manoeuvring within a few feet of
the ground at up to 110mph.
:-)
That would be correct in an airplane. I have done the kind of demo
racing you discussed on a short oval in a NASCAR Modified class race
car.
It was a birthday present from the wife. Lot's of fun, and I did
not spin out.
Top speed was about 110-120.
So's driving for miles and
miles at 120 or more in Germany!
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a professional driving coach
with a company offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to >>>>>> people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual gearbox), and a Nissan
370Z, each set up with an auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch
for the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people huge thrills and some >>>>>> insight into what it's like to drive a car at speed. The day started >>>>>> under wet conditions, but got a lot better later on until we finished up
on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with instruction. >>>>>>
A few were less timid, but only one really struggled to stay within the
limits of grip (in the worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's >>>>>> throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there were only a couple >>>>>> who I need to prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone
needed some demonstration of just how hard a car will really stop. >>>>>>
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about 10 laps as driver.
One very nice lady, a survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in two
of the cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her first go with
me in the Camaro) asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two more
laps to really see what the car could do. I think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, warming up the car and
also recording some video for tutorial video for the company to offer >>>>>> for those coming to the next event to actually see what they're supposed
to be seeing when they actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g>
Maybe next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so that you can
have fun invoking lift throttle oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on oversteer out of the >>>> Camaro... ...especially when the track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old “engine way in back”
early 911’s were notorious for. Classical instance was too late corner >>> deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end comes out
as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles, but usually
racing cars are closer to the edge of that than most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer rotation and power-push
the nose back to where you want it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.Please.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing... ...but you
tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from the ground).
On 2022-05-21 4:54 a.m., -hh wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:39:31 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a professional driving coach
with a company offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to >>>>>>>> people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual gearbox), and a Nissan
370Z, each set up with an auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch
for the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people huge thrills and some
insight into what it's like to drive a car at speed. The day started
under wet conditions, but got a lot better later on until we finished up
on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with instruction. >>>>>>>>
A few were less timid, but only one really struggled to stay within the
limits of grip (in the worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there were only a couple
who I need to prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone
needed some demonstration of just how hard a car will really stop. >>>>>>>>
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about 10 laps as driver.
One very nice lady, a survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in two
of the cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her first go with
me in the Camaro) asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two more
laps to really see what the car could do. I think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, warming up the car and
also recording some video for tutorial video for the company to offer
for those coming to the next event to actually see what they're supposed
to be seeing when they actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g>
Maybe next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so that you can
have fun invoking lift throttle oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on oversteer out of the
Camaro... ...especially when the track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old “engine way in back”
early 911’s were notorious for. Classical instance was too late corner
deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end comes out
as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles, but usually >>>> racing cars are closer to the edge of that than most road vehicles. >>>>>
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer rotation and power-pushYup. I teach it.
the nose back to where you want it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing... ...but you >> tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from the ground).
Plus tracks aren’t flat, so there are slope & momentum considerations too.To be completely fair, my track is very flat.
But I doubt Tom does much extreme manoeuvring within a few feet of the ground at up to 110mph.
:-)
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:01:55 AM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 4:54 a.m., -hh wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:39:31 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a professional driving coach
with a company offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to
people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual gearbox), and a Nissan
370Z, each set up with an auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch
for the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people huge thrills and some
insight into what it's like to drive a car at speed. The day started
under wet conditions, but got a lot better later on until we finished up
on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with instruction. >>>>>>>>
A few were less timid, but only one really struggled to stay within the
limits of grip (in the worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there were only a couple
who I need to prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone
needed some demonstration of just how hard a car will really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about 10 laps as driver.
One very nice lady, a survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in two
of the cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her first go with
me in the Camaro) asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two more
laps to really see what the car could do. I think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, warming up the car and
also recording some video for tutorial video for the company to offer
for those coming to the next event to actually see what they're supposed
to be seeing when they actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g>
Maybe next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so that you can
have fun invoking lift throttle oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on oversteer out of the
Camaro... ...especially when the track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old “engine way in back”
early 911’s were notorious for. Classical instance was too late corner
deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end comes out
as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles, but usually
racing cars are closer to the edge of that than most road vehicles. >>>>>
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer rotation and power-pushYup. I teach it.
the nose back to where you want it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing... ...but you >> tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from the ground).
Plus tracks aren’t flat, so there are slope & momentum considerations too.To be completely fair, my track is very flat.
But I doubt Tom does much extreme manoeuvring within a few feet of the ground at up to 110mph.
:-)LOL! You drive on FLAT GROUND, and think that is COOL!! You obviously aren't a pilot and have absolutely NO FUCKING IDEA what is involved!!! But, hey, that is your modus operandi for years.
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a professional driving coach
with a company offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to >>>>>>>> people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual gearbox), and a Nissan
370Z, each set up with an auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch >>>>>>>> for the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people huge thrills and some >>>>>>>> insight into what it's like to drive a car at speed. The day started >>>>>>>> under wet conditions, but got a lot better later on until we finished up
on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with instruction. >>>>>>>>
A few were less timid, but only one really struggled to stay within the
limits of grip (in the worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's >>>>>>>> throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there were only a couple >>>>>>>> who I need to prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone
needed some demonstration of just how hard a car will really stop. >>>>>>>>
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about 10 laps as driver. >>>>>>>> One very nice lady, a survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in two
of the cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her first go with
me in the Camaro) asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two more
laps to really see what the car could do. I think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, warming up the car and
also recording some video for tutorial video for the company to offer >>>>>>>> for those coming to the next event to actually see what they're supposed
to be seeing when they actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g>
Maybe next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so that you can
have fun invoking lift throttle oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on oversteer out of the >>>>>> Camaro... ...especially when the track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old “engine way in back”
early 911’s were notorious for. Classical instance was too late corner >>>>> deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end comes out
as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles, but usually >>>> racing cars are closer to the edge of that than most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer rotation and power-push
the nose back to where you want it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing... ...but you
tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from the ground).
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you fucking retard!!
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:01:55 AM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 4:54 a.m., -hh wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:39:31 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:To be completely fair, my track is very flat.
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan
wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company offering
short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to people
with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual
gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for
the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses
with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people
huge thrills and some insight into what it's like
to drive a car at speed. The day started under wet
conditions, but got a lot better later on until we
finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with
instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in the
worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there
were only a couple who I need to prevent from
spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone needed
some demonstration of just how hard a car will
really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about
10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a survivor
of cancer, who had paid for rides in two of the
cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her
first go with me in the Camaro) asked if she ride
as a passenger with me for two more laps to really
see what the car could do. I think I gave her a
sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own,
warming up the car and also recording some video
for tutorial video for the company to offer for
those coming to the next event to actually see what
they're supposed to be seeing when they actually
get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in
May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe next
time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so
that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the
track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old
“engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious for.
Classical instance was too late corner deceleration
getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end
comes out as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles,
but usually racing cars are closer to the edge of that than
most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer
rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want
it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing...
...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from
the ground).
Plus tracks aren’t flat, so there are slope & momentum
considerations too.
But I doubt Tom does much extreme manoeuvring within a few feet of
the ground at up to 110mph.
:-)
LOL! You drive on FLAT GROUND, and think that is COOL!! You obviously
aren't a pilot and have absolutely NO FUCKING IDEA what is
involved!!! But, hey, that is your modus operandi for years.
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:20:00 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:01:55 AM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 4:54 a.m., -hh wrote:LOL! You drive on FLAT GROUND, and think that is COOL!! You
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:39:31 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:To be completely fair, my track is very flat.
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, AlanBelieve me, I understand that, too!
wrote:
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan
wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company
offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences"
to people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual
gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for
the passenger seat, full racing seats and
harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people
huge thrills and some insight into what it's like
to drive a car at speed. The day started under
wet conditions, but got a lot better later on
until we finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid
with instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in
the worst car for driving in the wet; the
Camaro's throttle pedal is not very progressive),
and there were only a couple who I need to
prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost
everyone needed some demonstration of just how
hard a car will really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with
about 10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a
survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in
two of the cars (I think she went out in the
Mustang after her first go with me in the Camaro)
asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two
more laps to really see what the car could do. I
think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own,
warming up the car and also recording some video
for tutorial video for the company to offer for
those coming to the next event to actually see
what they're supposed to be seeing when they
actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in
May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe
next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one
so that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the
track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the
old “engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious
for. Classical instance was too late corner
deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner &
the back end comes out as you’re slowing…big old
pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most
vehicles, but usually racing cars are closer to the edge
of that than most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer
rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want
it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing...
...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away
from the ground).
Plus tracks aren’t flat, so there are slope & momentum
considerations too.
But I doubt Tom does much extreme manoeuvring within a few feet
of the ground at up to 110mph.
:-)
obviously aren't a pilot and have absolutely NO FUCKING IDEA what
is involved!!! But, hey, that is your modus operandi for years.
Hey Fool, you REALLY need to educate yourself about flying; what
happens if you spin out? Now, look up what happens in the same
situation to an aircraft.
On 2022-05-21 9:22 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:20:00 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:01:55 AM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 4:54 a.m., -hh wrote:LOL! You drive on FLAT GROUND, and think that is COOL!! You
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:39:31 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:To be completely fair, my track is very flat.
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, AlanBelieve me, I understand that, too!
wrote:
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan
wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company
offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences"
to people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual
gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for
the passenger seat, full racing seats and
harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people
huge thrills and some insight into what it's like
to drive a car at speed. The day started under
wet conditions, but got a lot better later on
until we finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid
with instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in
the worst car for driving in the wet; the
Camaro's throttle pedal is not very progressive),
and there were only a couple who I need to
prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost
everyone needed some demonstration of just how
hard a car will really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with
about 10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a
survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in
two of the cars (I think she went out in the
Mustang after her first go with me in the Camaro)
asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two
more laps to really see what the car could do. I
think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own,
warming up the car and also recording some video
for tutorial video for the company to offer for
those coming to the next event to actually see
what they're supposed to be seeing when they
actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in
May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe
next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one >>>>>>>>>> so that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the
track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the
old “engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious
for. Classical instance was too late corner
deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner &
the back end comes out as you’re slowing…big old
pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most
vehicles, but usually racing cars are closer to the edge
of that than most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer
rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want
it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing...
...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away
from the ground).
Plus tracks aren’t flat, so there are slope & momentum
considerations too.
But I doubt Tom does much extreme manoeuvring within a few feet
of the ground at up to 110mph.
:-)
obviously aren't a pilot and have absolutely NO FUCKING IDEA what
is involved!!! But, hey, that is your modus operandi for years.
Hey Fool, you REALLY need to educate yourself about flying; whatBecause the two words don't mean nearly the same thing in the different contexts...
happens if you spin out? Now, look up what happens in the same
situation to an aircraft.
...and furthermore, to drive a racing car fast, you have to risk
spinning in pretty much every corner, whereas in an aircraft
(particularly a sailplane or glider), you actively avoid the flight
regime where entering a spin is even possible.
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 1:11:38 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 9:22 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:20:00 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:01:55 AM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 4:54 a.m., -hh wrote:LOL! You drive on FLAT GROUND, and think that is COOL!! You
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:39:31 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:To be completely fair, my track is very flat.
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, AlanBelieve me, I understand that, too!
wrote:
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan
wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company
offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences"
to people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual
gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for
the passenger seat, full racing seats and
harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people
huge thrills and some insight into what it's like
to drive a car at speed. The day started under
wet conditions, but got a lot better later on
until we finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid
with instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in
the worst car for driving in the wet; the
Camaro's throttle pedal is not very progressive),
and there were only a couple who I need to
prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost
everyone needed some demonstration of just how
hard a car will really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with
about 10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a
survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in
two of the cars (I think she went out in the
Mustang after her first go with me in the Camaro)
asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two
more laps to really see what the car could do. I
think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own,
warming up the car and also recording some video
for tutorial video for the company to offer for
those coming to the next event to actually see
what they're supposed to be seeing when they
actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in
May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe
next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one >>>>>>>>>> so that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the
track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the
old “engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious >>>>>>>> for. Classical instance was too late corner
deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner &
the back end comes out as you’re slowing…big old
pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most
vehicles, but usually racing cars are closer to the edge
of that than most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer
rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want
it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing...
...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away
from the ground).
Plus tracks aren’t flat, so there are slope & momentum
considerations too.
But I doubt Tom does much extreme manoeuvring within a few feet
of the ground at up to 110mph.
:-)
obviously aren't a pilot and have absolutely NO FUCKING IDEA what
is involved!!! But, hey, that is your modus operandi for years.
Hey Fool, you REALLY need to educate yourself about flying; whatBecause the two words don't mean nearly the same thing in the different contexts...
happens if you spin out? Now, look up what happens in the same
situation to an aircraft.
...and furthermore, to drive a racing car fast, you have to risk
spinning in pretty much every corner, whereas in an aircraft
(particularly a sailplane or glider), you actively avoid the flight
regime where entering a spin is even possible.
To each there own, I could think of a more boring way to spend time and waste money. Going around a race track fast, Wow!
Now Alan dear I am not talking about you personally, but I will cite
a study clearly showing an inverse relationship between penis size
and the ownership of fast cars. The need to go fast seems to be a compensation for what some are lacking.
I went to a race once. Majority of spectators were ignorant rednecks, average IQ will below 70. Got no time to be around such trash, but again old man, to each their own.
The happiness you gave these people, taking them on the journey around
the track, so touching. Brought tears to my eyes. The cancer survivor, wow
the happiness she must have experienced. I will never know, I got better things to do than go fast and go round and round. But to each their own,
yes indeed!
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 3:31:18 PM UTC-5, Irving S wrote:
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 1:11:38 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 9:22 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:20:00 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:01:55 AM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 4:54 a.m., -hh wrote:LOL! You drive on FLAT GROUND, and think that is COOL!! You
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:39:31 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:To be completely fair, my track is very flat.
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, AlanBelieve me, I understand that, too!
wrote:
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan
wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company
offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences"
to people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual >>>>>>>>>>> gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for
the passenger seat, full racing seats and
harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people
huge thrills and some insight into what it's like >>>>>>>>>>> to drive a car at speed. The day started under
wet conditions, but got a lot better later on
until we finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid
with instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in
the worst car for driving in the wet; the
Camaro's throttle pedal is not very progressive), >>>>>>>>>>> and there were only a couple who I need to
prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost
everyone needed some demonstration of just how
hard a car will really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with
about 10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a
survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in
two of the cars (I think she went out in the
Mustang after her first go with me in the Camaro) >>>>>>>>>>> asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two
more laps to really see what the car could do. I
think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own,
warming up the car and also recording some video
for tutorial video for the company to offer for
those coming to the next event to actually see
what they're supposed to be seeing when they
actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in
May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe >>>>>>>>>> next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one >>>>>>>>>> so that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the >>>>>>>>> track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the
old “engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious >>>>>>>> for. Classical instance was too late corner
deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner &
the back end comes out as you’re slowing…big old
pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most
vehicles, but usually racing cars are closer to the edge
of that than most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer
rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want >>>>>>>> it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing...
...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away
from the ground).
Plus tracks aren’t flat, so there are slope & momentum
considerations too.
But I doubt Tom does much extreme manoeuvring within a few feet
of the ground at up to 110mph.
:-)
obviously aren't a pilot and have absolutely NO FUCKING IDEA what
is involved!!! But, hey, that is your modus operandi for years.
Hey Fool, you REALLY need to educate yourself about flying; what happens if you spin out? Now, look up what happens in the same situation to an aircraft.Because the two words don't mean nearly the same thing in the different contexts...
...and furthermore, to drive a racing car fast, you have to risk spinning in pretty much every corner, whereas in an aircraft (particularly a sailplane or glider), you actively avoid the flight regime where entering a spin is even possible.
To each there own, I could think of a more boring way to spend time and waste money. Going around a race track fast, Wow!It’s always a YMMV. Some enjoy jumping out of airplanes, others
golf, etc.
Now Alan dear I am not talking about you personally, but I will citeWhen you finally get around to finding that cite, make sure it’s the same one
a study clearly showing an inverse relationship between penis size
and the ownership of fast cars. The need to go fast seems to be a compensation for what some are lacking.
that also addresses people who think buying fancier gear is the end-all to fitness and muscle memory development for the arbitrary benefit of maybe
a better stroke or two here or there.
I went to a race once. Majority of spectators were ignorant rednecks, averageYup, that’s NASCAR style events. Try a version that’s not based on prohibition.
IQ will below 70. Got no time to be around such trash, but again old man, to
each their own.
The happiness you gave these people, taking them on the journey aroundIt’s a document-drama, but do consider the clip in “Ford vs Ferrari” where
the track, so touching. Brought tears to my eyes. The cancer survivor, wow the happiness she must have experienced. I will never know, I got better things to do than go fast and go round and round. But to each their own, yes indeed!
Carol Shelby gives Henry Ford Jr a hot lap to explain what he got for his $9M.
-hh
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 4:44:10 PM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 3:31:18 PM UTC-5, Irving S wrote:
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 1:11:38 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 9:22 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:20:00 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:01:55 AM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 4:54 a.m., -hh wrote:LOL! You drive on FLAT GROUND, and think that is COOL!! You
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:39:31 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:To be completely fair, my track is very flat.
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote: >>>>>>> On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:Please.
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, AlanBelieve me, I understand that, too!
wrote:
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan >>>>>>>>>> wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company
offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" >>>>>>>>>>> to people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual >>>>>>>>>>> gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an >>>>>>>>>>> auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for >>>>>>>>>>> the passenger seat, full racing seats and
harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people >>>>>>>>>>> huge thrills and some insight into what it's like >>>>>>>>>>> to drive a car at speed. The day started under
wet conditions, but got a lot better later on
until we finished up on a completely dry track. >>>>>>>>>>>
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid
with instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in >>>>>>>>>>> the worst car for driving in the wet; the
Camaro's throttle pedal is not very progressive), >>>>>>>>>>> and there were only a couple who I need to
prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost >>>>>>>>>>> everyone needed some demonstration of just how
hard a car will really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with
about 10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a
survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in
two of the cars (I think she went out in the
Mustang after her first go with me in the Camaro) >>>>>>>>>>> asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two >>>>>>>>>>> more laps to really see what the car could do. I >>>>>>>>>>> think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, >>>>>>>>>>> warming up the car and also recording some video >>>>>>>>>>> for tutorial video for the company to offer for >>>>>>>>>>> those coming to the next event to actually see
what they're supposed to be seeing when they
actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in
May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe >>>>>>>>>> next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one >>>>>>>>>> so that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the >>>>>>>>> track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the
old “engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious >>>>>>>> for. Classical instance was too late corner
deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner & >>>>>>>> the back end comes out as you’re slowing…big old
pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most
vehicles, but usually racing cars are closer to the edge >>>>>>> of that than most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer >>>>>>>> rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want >>>>>>>> it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing... >>>>> ...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away
from the ground).
Plus tracks aren’t flat, so there are slope & momentum
considerations too.
But I doubt Tom does much extreme manoeuvring within a few feet >>> of the ground at up to 110mph.
:-)
obviously aren't a pilot and have absolutely NO FUCKING IDEA what >> is involved!!! But, hey, that is your modus operandi for years.
Hey Fool, you REALLY need to educate yourself about flying; what happens if you spin out? Now, look up what happens in the same situation to an aircraft.Because the two words don't mean nearly the same thing in the different
contexts...
...and furthermore, to drive a racing car fast, you have to risk spinning in pretty much every corner, whereas in an aircraft (particularly a sailplane or glider), you actively avoid the flight regime where entering a spin is even possible.
To each there own, I could think of a more boring way to spend time and waste money. Going around a race track fast, Wow!
It’s always a YMMV. Some enjoy jumping out of airplanes, others
golf, etc.
Now Alan dear I am not talking about you personally, but I will cite
a study clearly showing an inverse relationship between penis size
and the ownership of fast cars. The need to go fast seems to be a compensation for what some are lacking.
When you finally get around to finding that cite, make sure it’s the same one
that also addresses people who think buying fancier gear is the end-all to fitness and muscle memory development for the arbitrary benefit of maybe
a better stroke or two here or there.
I went to a race once. Majority of spectators were ignorant rednecks, average
IQ will below 70. Got no time to be around such trash, but again old man, to
each their own.
Yup, that’s NASCAR style events. Try a version that’s not based on prohibition.
The happiness you gave these people, taking them on the journey around the track, so touching. Brought tears to my eyes. The cancer survivor, wow
the happiness she must have experienced. I will never know, I got better things to do than go fast and go round and round. But to each their own, yes indeed!
It’s a document-drama, but do consider the clip in “Ford vs Ferrari” where
Carol Shelby gives Henry Ford Jr a hot lap to explain what he got for his $9M.
-hh
LOL!
The Jersey clown to the rescue. Good job. Predictable as predictable gets.
Why are you not in your closet hiding? Won't be long before that homely prick
you call a governor will have you all quaranteed because of the monkey virus!
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 3:49:28 PM UTC-5, Irving S wrote:
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 4:44:10 PM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 3:31:18 PM UTC-5, Irving S wrote:
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 1:11:38 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 9:22 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:20:00 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:Because the two words don't mean nearly the same thing in the different >>>>> contexts...
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:01:55 AM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 4:54 a.m., -hh wrote:LOL! You drive on FLAT GROUND, and think that is COOL!! You
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:39:31 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:To be completely fair, my track is very flat.
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:Please.
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, AlanBelieve me, I understand that, too!
wrote:
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company
offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the passenger seat, full racing seats and
harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> huge thrills and some insight into what it's like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to drive a car at speed. The day started under >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wet conditions, but got a lot better later on
until we finished up on a completely dry track. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid
with instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the worst car for driving in the wet; the
Camaro's throttle pedal is not very progressive), >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and there were only a couple who I need to
prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone needed some demonstration of just how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard a car will really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with
about 10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in
two of the cars (I think she went out in the
Mustang after her first go with me in the Camaro) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more laps to really see what the car could do. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> warming up the car and also recording some video >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for tutorial video for the company to offer for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those coming to the next event to actually see >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what they're supposed to be seeing when they
actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the >>>>>>>>>>>>> old “engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious >>>>>>>>>>>>> for. Classical instance was too late corner
deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner & >>>>>>>>>>>>> the back end comes out as you’re slowing…big old >>>>>>>>>>>>> pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most
vehicles, but usually racing cars are closer to the edge >>>>>>>>>>>> of that than most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer >>>>>>>>>>>>> rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want >>>>>>>>>>>>> it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing... >>>>>>>>>> ...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away
from the ground).
Plus tracks aren’t flat, so there are slope & momentum
considerations too.
But I doubt Tom does much extreme manoeuvring within a few feet >>>>>>>> of the ground at up to 110mph.
:-)
obviously aren't a pilot and have absolutely NO FUCKING IDEA what >>>>>>> is involved!!! But, hey, that is your modus operandi for years.
Hey Fool, you REALLY need to educate yourself about flying; what
happens if you spin out? Now, look up what happens in the same
situation to an aircraft.
...and furthermore, to drive a racing car fast, you have to risk
spinning in pretty much every corner, whereas in an aircraft
(particularly a sailplane or glider), you actively avoid the flight
regime where entering a spin is even possible.
To each there own, I could think of a more boring way to spend time and >>>> waste money. Going around a race track fast, Wow!
It’s always a YMMV. Some enjoy jumping out of airplanes, others
golf, etc.
Now Alan dear I am not talking about you personally, but I will cite
a study clearly showing an inverse relationship between penis size
and the ownership of fast cars. The need to go fast seems to be a
compensation for what some are lacking.
When you finally get around to finding that cite, make sure it’s the same one
that also addresses people who think buying fancier gear is the end-all to >>> fitness and muscle memory development for the arbitrary benefit of maybe >>> a better stroke or two here or there.
I went to a race once. Majority of spectators were ignorant rednecks, average
IQ will below 70. Got no time to be around such trash, but again old man, to
each their own.
Yup, that’s NASCAR style events. Try a version that’s not based on prohibition.
The happiness you gave these people, taking them on the journey around >>>> the track, so touching. Brought tears to my eyes. The cancer survivor, wow >>>> the happiness she must have experienced. I will never know, I got better >>>> things to do than go fast and go round and round. But to each their own, >>>> yes indeed!
It’s a document-drama, but do consider the clip in “Ford vs Ferrari” where
Carol Shelby gives Henry Ford Jr a hot lap to explain what he got for his $9M.
-hh
LOL!
The Jersey clown to the rescue. Good job. Predictable as predictable gets.
So…does this mean you *still* can’t find that alleged cite?
Why are you not in your closet hiding? Won't be long before that homely prick
you call a governor will have you all quaranteed because of the monkey virus!
Oh, you finally figured out that I’m not hiding? What was it that tipped you off?
BTW, good day out today, plus grilled a nice tenderloin this evening. Would have
been nice to have been al fresco for the rest of the dinner with a decent French
blush, but the Sahara dusts held down the sunset view. But there’s tomorrow...
On 2022-05-22 6:03 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 3:49:28 PM UTC-5, Irving S wrote:
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 4:44:10 PM UTC-4, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 3:31:18 PM UTC-5, Irving S wrote:
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 1:11:38 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 9:22 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 9:20:00 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:Because the two words don't mean nearly the same thing in the different
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:01:55 AM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Hey Fool, you REALLY need to educate yourself about flying; what >>>>>> happens if you spin out? Now, look up what happens in the same
On 2022-05-21 4:54 a.m., -hh wrote:LOL! You drive on FLAT GROUND, and think that is COOL!! You
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:39:31 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:To be completely fair, my track is very flat.
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:Please.
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> professional driving coach with a company
offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to people with no previous track experience. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the passenger seat, full racing seats and
harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> huge thrills and some insight into what it's like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to drive a car at speed. The day started under >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wet conditions, but got a lot better later on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until we finished up on a completely dry track. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the worst car for driving in the wet; the
Camaro's throttle pedal is not very progressive), >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and there were only a couple who I need to
prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone needed some demonstration of just how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hard a car will really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about 10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> two of the cars (I think she went out in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mustang after her first go with me in the Camaro) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more laps to really see what the car could do. I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> warming up the car and also recording some video >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for tutorial video for the company to offer for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those coming to the next event to actually see >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what they're supposed to be seeing when they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so that you can have fun invoking lift throttle >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the >>>>>>>>>>>>> old “engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious >>>>>>>>>>>>> for. Classical instance was too late corner
deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner & >>>>>>>>>>>>> the back end comes out as you’re slowing…big old >>>>>>>>>>>>> pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most
vehicles, but usually racing cars are closer to the edge >>>>>>>>>>>> of that than most road vehicles.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer >>>>>>>>>>>>> rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want >>>>>>>>>>>>> it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards… >>>>>>>>>>>> Yup. I teach it.
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing... >>>>>>>>>> ...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away >>>>>>>>>> from the ground).
Plus tracks aren’t flat, so there are slope & momentum
considerations too.
But I doubt Tom does much extreme manoeuvring within a few feet >>>>>>>> of the ground at up to 110mph.
:-)
obviously aren't a pilot and have absolutely NO FUCKING IDEA what >>>>>>> is involved!!! But, hey, that is your modus operandi for years. >>>>>>
situation to an aircraft.
contexts...
...and furthermore, to drive a racing car fast, you have to risk
spinning in pretty much every corner, whereas in an aircraft
(particularly a sailplane or glider), you actively avoid the flight >>>>> regime where entering a spin is even possible.
To each there own, I could think of a more boring way to spend time and >>>> waste money. Going around a race track fast, Wow!
It’s always a YMMV. Some enjoy jumping out of airplanes, others
golf, etc.
Now Alan dear I am not talking about you personally, but I will cite >>>> a study clearly showing an inverse relationship between penis size
and the ownership of fast cars. The need to go fast seems to be a
compensation for what some are lacking.
When you finally get around to finding that cite, make sure it’s the same one
that also addresses people who think buying fancier gear is the end-all to
fitness and muscle memory development for the arbitrary benefit of maybe >>> a better stroke or two here or there.
I went to a race once. Majority of spectators were ignorant rednecks, average
IQ will below 70. Got no time to be around such trash, but again old man, to
each their own.
Yup, that’s NASCAR style events. Try a version that’s not based on prohibition.
The happiness you gave these people, taking them on the journey around >>>> the track, so touching. Brought tears to my eyes. The cancer survivor, wow
the happiness she must have experienced. I will never know, I got better
things to do than go fast and go round and round. But to each their own,
yes indeed!
It’s a document-drama, but do consider the clip in “Ford vs Ferrari” where
Carol Shelby gives Henry Ford Jr a hot lap to explain what he got for his $9M.
-hh
LOL!
The Jersey clown to the rescue. Good job. Predictable as predictable gets.
So…does this mean you *still* can’t find that alleged cite?
Why are you not in your closet hiding? Won't be long before that homely prick
you call a governor will have you all quaranteed because of the monkey virus!
Oh, you finally figured out that I’m not hiding? What was it that tipped you off?Hey!
BTW, good day out today, plus grilled a nice tenderloin this evening. Would have
been nice to have been al fresco for the rest of the dinner with a decent French
blush, but the Sahara dusts held down the sunset view. But there’s tomorrow...
My sister-in-law, niece and I had reverse-seared striploins and caesar salad!
No Sahara dust, but I'm fairly certain that global warming will be
providing its annual forest fire spectacular here in BC.
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:06:45 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Sunshine...
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan
wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company offering
short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to people
with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual
gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for
the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses
with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people
huge thrills and some insight into what it's like
to drive a car at speed. The day started under wet
conditions, but got a lot better later on until we
finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with
instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in the
worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there
were only a couple who I need to prevent from
spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone needed
some demonstration of just how hard a car will
really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about
10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a survivor
of cancer, who had paid for rides in two of the
cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her
first go with me in the Camaro) asked if she ride
as a passenger with me for two more laps to really
see what the car could do. I think I gave her a
sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own,
warming up the car and also recording some video
for tutorial video for the company to offer for
those coming to the next event to actually see what
they're supposed to be seeing when they actually
get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in
May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe next
time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so
that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the
track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old
“engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious for.
Classical instance was too late corner deceleration
getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end
comes out as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles,
but usually racing cars are closer to the edge of that than
most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer
rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want
it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing...
...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from
the ground).
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you fucking
retard!!
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything you can hit in
comparison to where you place a racing car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already doing 60mph, and
I'm usually within two feet of the wall.
On the front straight, that speed is around 90mph, so I typically
leave 3-4 feet.
You keep your little glider literally 100s if not 1,000s of feet
from the nearest obstacle while flying...
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic lift when you're
doing it.
You keep on demonstrating your TOTAL IGNORANCE of flying and the
hazards involved. Are you subject to falling hundreds of feet by a
sudden wind gust?
I don't think so. You also never answered the
question: what happens to you when you spin out.
The NTSB provides
photographs of the aftermath of such accidents - go look them up.
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a professional driving coach
with a company offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to >>>>>>>> people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual gearbox), and a Nissan
370Z, each set up with an auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch
for the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people huge thrills and some
insight into what it's like to drive a car at speed. The day started
under wet conditions, but got a lot better later on until we finished up
on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with instruction. >>>>>>>>
A few were less timid, but only one really struggled to stay within the
limits of grip (in the worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there were only a couple
who I need to prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone
needed some demonstration of just how hard a car will really stop. >>>>>>>>
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about 10 laps as driver.
One very nice lady, a survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in two
of the cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her first go with
me in the Camaro) asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two more
laps to really see what the car could do. I think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, warming up the car and
also recording some video for tutorial video for the company to offer
for those coming to the next event to actually see what they're supposed
to be seeing when they actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g>
Maybe next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so that you can
have fun invoking lift throttle oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on oversteer out of the
Camaro... ...especially when the track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old “engine way in back”
early 911’s were notorious for. Classical instance was too late corner
deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end comes out
as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles, but usually >>>> racing cars are closer to the edge of that than most road vehicles. >>>>>
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer rotation and power-pushYup. I teach it.
the nose back to where you want it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing... ...but you >> tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from the ground).
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you fucking retard!!Sunshine...
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything you can hit in comparison
to where you place a racing car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already doing 60mph, and I'm
usually within two feet of the wall.
On the front straight, that speed is around 90mph, so I typically leave
3-4 feet.
You keep your little glider literally 100s if not 1,000s of feet from
the nearest obstacle while flying...
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic lift when you're doing it.
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a professional driving coach
with a company offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to >>>>>>>> people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual gearbox), and a Nissan
370Z, each set up with an auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch
for the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people huge thrills and some
insight into what it's like to drive a car at speed. The day started
under wet conditions, but got a lot better later on until we finished up
on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with instruction. >>>>>>>>
A few were less timid, but only one really struggled to stay within the
limits of grip (in the worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there were only a couple
who I need to prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone
needed some demonstration of just how hard a car will really stop. >>>>>>>>
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about 10 laps as driver.
One very nice lady, a survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in two
of the cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her first go with
me in the Camaro) asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two more
laps to really see what the car could do. I think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, warming up the car and
also recording some video for tutorial video for the company to offer
for those coming to the next event to actually see what they're supposed
to be seeing when they actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g>
Maybe next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so that you can
have fun invoking lift throttle oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on oversteer out of the
Camaro... ...especially when the track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old “engine way in back”
early 911’s were notorious for. Classical instance was too late corner
deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end comes out
as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles, but usually >>>> racing cars are closer to the edge of that than most road vehicles. >>>>>
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer rotation and power-pushYup. I teach it.
the nose back to where you want it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing... ...but you >> tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from the ground).
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you fucking retard!!Sunshine...
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything you can hit in comparison
to where you place a racing car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already doing 60mph, and I'm
usually within two feet of the wall.
On the front straight, that speed is around 90mph, so I typically leave
3-4 feet.
You keep your little glider literally 100s if not 1,000s of feet from
the nearest obstacle while flying...
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic lift when you're doing it.
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 12:20:00 AM UTC-4, TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:01:55 AM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 4:54 a.m., -hh wrote:LOL! You drive on FLAT GROUND, and think that is COOL!! You obviously aren't a pilot and have absolutely NO FUCKING IDEA what is involved!!! But, hey, that is your modus operandi for years.
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:39:31 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:To be completely fair, my track is very flat.
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> I spent yesterday doing my second event as a professional driving coach
with a company offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to >>>>>>>>>>> people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual gearbox), and a Nissan
370Z, each set up with an auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch
for the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people huge thrills and some
insight into what it's like to drive a car at speed. The day started
under wet conditions, but got a lot better later on until we finished up
on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with instruction. >>>>>>>>>>>
A few were less timid, but only one really struggled to stay within the
limits of grip (in the worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there were only a couple
who I need to prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone
needed some demonstration of just how hard a car will really stop. >>>>>>>>>>>
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about 10 laps as driver.
One very nice lady, a survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in two
of the cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her first go with
me in the Camaro) asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two more
laps to really see what the car could do. I think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, warming up the car and
also recording some video for tutorial video for the company to offer
for those coming to the next event to actually see what they're supposed
to be seeing when they actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g>
Maybe next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so that you can
have fun invoking lift throttle oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on oversteer out of the
Camaro... ...especially when the track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old “engine way in back”
early 911’s were notorious for. Classical instance was too late corner
deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end comes out
as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles, but usually >>>>>>> racing cars are closer to the edge of that than most road vehicles. >>>>>>>>
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer rotation and power-pushYup. I teach it.
the nose back to where you want it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing... ...but you >>>>> tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from the ground).
Plus tracks aren’t flat, so there are slope & momentum considerations too.
But I doubt Tom does much extreme manoeuvring within a few feet of the
ground at up to 110mph.
:-)
He landed a 150 with an instructor's help on a really nice day. According to Alan that makes him a pilot.
On 2022-05-21 10:34 a.m., Tom Elam wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 11:01:55 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 4:54 a.m., -hh wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:39:31 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:To be completely fair, my track is very flat.
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan
wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company offering
short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to people
with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual
gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for
the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses
with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people
huge thrills and some insight into what it's like
to drive a car at speed. The day started under wet
conditions, but got a lot better later on until we
finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with
instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in the
worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there
were only a couple who I need to prevent from
spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone needed
some demonstration of just how hard a car will
really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about
10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a survivor
of cancer, who had paid for rides in two of the
cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her
first go with me in the Camaro) asked if she ride
as a passenger with me for two more laps to really
see what the car could do. I think I gave her a
sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own,
warming up the car and also recording some video
for tutorial video for the company to offer for
those coming to the next event to actually see what
they're supposed to be seeing when they actually
get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in
May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe next >>>>>>>>> time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so
that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the
track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old
“engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious for.
Classical instance was too late corner deceleration
getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end
comes out as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles,
but usually racing cars are closer to the edge of that than
most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer
rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want
it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing...
...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from
the ground).
Plus tracks aren’t flat, so there are slope & momentum
considerations too.
But I doubt Tom does much extreme manoeuvring within a few feet of
the ground at up to 110mph.
:-)
That would be correct in an airplane. I have done the kind of demoTry it on a road course.
racing you discussed on a short oval in a NASCAR Modified class race
car.
It was a birthday present from the wife. Lot's of fun, and I didBecause you weren't actually close to the limit.
not spin out.
Top speed was about 110-120.As I said.
So's driving for miles andDriving for miles and miles on a highway is not very much fun at any speed...
miles at 120 or more in Germany!
...but being allowed to do it at a higher speed does get it done with sooner.
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:48:36 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 10:34 a.m., Tom Elam wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 11:01:55 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Try it on a road course.
On 2022-05-21 4:54 a.m., -hh wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:39:31 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:To be completely fair, my track is very flat.
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, AlanBelieve me, I understand that, too!
wrote:
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4,
Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company
offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race
experiences" to people with no previous track
experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang
(manual gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set
up with an auxiliary brake pedal and engine
kill switch for the passenger seat, full racing
seats and harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22
people huge thrills and some insight into what
it's like to drive a car at speed. The day
started under wet conditions, but got a lot
better later on until we finished up on a
completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid
with instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in
the worst car for driving in the wet; the
Camaro's throttle pedal is not very
progressive), and there were only a couple who
I need to prevent from spinning with the aux
brake. Almost everyone needed some
demonstration of just how hard a car will
really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with
about 10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a
survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in
two of the cars (I think she went out in the
Mustang after her first go with me in the
Camaro) asked if she ride as a passenger with
me for two more laps to really see what the car
could do. I think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my
own, warming up the car and also recording some
video for tutorial video for the company to
offer for those coming to the next event to
actually see what they're supposed to be seeing
when they actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in
May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe
next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old
one so that you can have fun invoking lift
throttle oversteer to hang the back end waaaay
out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when
the track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the
old “engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious
for. Classical instance was too late corner
deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner &
the back end comes out as you’re slowing…big old
pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most
vehicles, but usually racing cars are closer to the
edge of that than most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the
oversteer rotation and power-push the nose back to
where you want it to be. Otherwise, you end up going
backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one
thing... ...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring
well away from the ground).
Plus tracks aren’t flat, so there are slope & momentum
considerations too.
But I doubt Tom does much extreme manoeuvring within a few feet
of the ground at up to 110mph.
:-)
That would be correct in an airplane. I have done the kind of
demo racing you discussed on a short oval in a NASCAR Modified
class race car.
It was a birthday present from the wife. Lot's of fun, and I didBecause you weren't actually close to the limit.
not spin out.
Top speed was about 110-120.As I said.
So's driving for miles and miles at 120 or more in Germany!Driving for miles and miles on a highway is not very much fun at
any speed...
...but being allowed to do it at a higher speed does get it done
with sooner.
Have you every driven on an unrestricted autobahn? Likely not. 120 is
slow in the fast lane. You have cars going 150 or more that come up
behind you with headlights flashing telling you to move over and NOW!
Gets you attention.
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:01:55 AM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 4:54 a.m., -hh wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:39:31 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a professional driving coach
with a company offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to
people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual gearbox), and a Nissan
370Z, each set up with an auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch
for the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people huge thrills and some
insight into what it's like to drive a car at speed. The day started
under wet conditions, but got a lot better later on until we finished up
on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with instruction. >>>>>>>>
A few were less timid, but only one really struggled to stay within the
limits of grip (in the worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there were only a couple
who I need to prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone
needed some demonstration of just how hard a car will really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about 10 laps as driver.
One very nice lady, a survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in two
of the cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her first go with
me in the Camaro) asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two more
laps to really see what the car could do. I think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, warming up the car and
also recording some video for tutorial video for the company to offer
for those coming to the next event to actually see what they're supposed
to be seeing when they actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g>
Maybe next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so that you can
have fun invoking lift throttle oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on oversteer out of the
Camaro... ...especially when the track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old “engine way in back”
early 911’s were notorious for. Classical instance was too late corner
deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end comes out
as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles, but usually
racing cars are closer to the edge of that than most road vehicles. >>>>>
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer rotation and power-pushYup. I teach it.
the nose back to where you want it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing... ...but you >> tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from the ground).
Plus tracks aren’t flat, so there are slope & momentum considerations too.To be completely fair, my track is very flat.
But I doubt Tom does much extreme manoeuvring within a few feet of the ground at up to 110mph.
:-)LOL! You drive on FLAT GROUND, and think that is COOL!! You obviously aren't a pilot and have absolutely NO FUCKING IDEA what is involved!!! But, hey, that is your modus operandi for years.
On 2022-05-24 8:52 a.m., Tom Elam wrote:
On Sunday, May 22, 2022 at 12:20:00 AM UTC-4, TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 8:01:55 AM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 4:54 a.m., -hh wrote:LOL! You drive on FLAT GROUND, and think that is COOL!! You obviously aren't a pilot and have absolutely NO FUCKING IDEA what is involved!!! But, hey, that is your modus operandi for years.
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:39:31 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:To be completely fair, my track is very flat.
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> I spent yesterday doing my second event as a professional driving coach
with a company offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to
people with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual gearbox), and a Nissan
370Z, each set up with an auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch
for the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people huge thrills and some
insight into what it's like to drive a car at speed. The day started
under wet conditions, but got a lot better later on until we finished up
on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with instruction. >>>>>>>>>>>
A few were less timid, but only one really struggled to stay within the
limits of grip (in the worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there were only a couple
who I need to prevent from spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone
needed some demonstration of just how hard a car will really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about 10 laps as driver.
One very nice lady, a survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in two
of the cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her first go with
me in the Camaro) asked if she ride as a passenger with me for two more
laps to really see what the car could do. I think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, warming up the car and
also recording some video for tutorial video for the company to offer
for those coming to the next event to actually see what they're supposed
to be seeing when they actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g>
Maybe next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so that you can
have fun invoking lift throttle oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on oversteer out of the
Camaro... ...especially when the track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old “engine way in back”
early 911’s were notorious for. Classical instance was too late corner
deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end comes out
as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles, but usually
racing cars are closer to the edge of that than most road vehicles. >>>>>>>>
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer rotation and power-pushYup. I teach it.
the nose back to where you want it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing... ...but you
tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from the ground).
Plus tracks aren’t flat, so there are slope & momentum considerations too.
But I doubt Tom does much extreme manoeuvring within a few feet of the >>> ground at up to 110mph.
:-)
He landed a 150 with an instructor's help on a really nice day. According to Alan that makes him a pilot.Nope.
I've never claimed that.
And it's irrelevant here anyway.
The simple fact of the matter is that when you're racing, you
deliberately operate as close to the limit of adhesion as you can with
walls sometimes only a few feet away; sometimes only a few inches.
When you're flying, except for occasional training exercises, you
actively avoid operating at the ragged edge of aerodynamic performance
(in fact, doesn't flight training now emphasize spin avoidance over spin recovery).
Metaphorically, "coffin corner" is where a racing driver lives.
:-)
On Tuesday, May 24, 2022 at 10:50:47 AM UTC-5, thomas...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:48:36 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 10:34 a.m., Tom Elam wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 11:01:55 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Try it on a road course.
On 2022-05-21 4:54 a.m., -hh wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:39:31 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:To be completely fair, my track is very flat.
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan
wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company offering
short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to people
with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual
gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for
the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses
with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people
huge thrills and some insight into what it's like
to drive a car at speed. The day started under wet
conditions, but got a lot better later on until we
finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with
instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in the
worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there
were only a couple who I need to prevent from
spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone needed
some demonstration of just how hard a car will
really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about
10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a survivor
of cancer, who had paid for rides in two of the
cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her
first go with me in the Camaro) asked if she ride
as a passenger with me for two more laps to really
see what the car could do. I think I gave her a
sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own,
warming up the car and also recording some video
for tutorial video for the company to offer for
those coming to the next event to actually see what
they're supposed to be seeing when they actually
get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in
May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe next >>>>>>>>>>>> time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so
that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the
track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old
“engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious for. >>>>>>>>>> Classical instance was too late corner deceleration
getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end
comes out as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles,
but usually racing cars are closer to the edge of that than
most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer
rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want
it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing...
...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from
the ground).
Plus tracks aren’t flat, so there are slope & momentum
considerations too.
But I doubt Tom does much extreme manoeuvring within a few feet of
the ground at up to 110mph.
:-)
That would be correct in an airplane. I have done the kind of demo
racing you discussed on a short oval in a NASCAR Modified class race
car.
It was a birthday present from the wife. Lot's of fun, and I didBecause you weren't actually close to the limit.
not spin out.
Top speed was about 110-120.As I said.
So's driving for miles andDriving for miles and miles on a highway is not very much fun at any
miles at 120 or more in Germany!
speed...
...but being allowed to do it at a higher speed does get it done with
sooner.
Have you every driven on an unrestricted autobahn? Likely not. 120 is
slow in the fast lane. You have cars going 150 or more that come up
behind you with headlights flashing telling you to move over and NOW!
Gets you attention.
Even so, it still isn’t pushing the limits like competitive track racing does,
until you talking about being on the ‘Bahn (or Autostrada) doing 100mph+
in the rain, at night.
Driving for miles and miles on a highway is not very much fun at any
speed...
...but being allowed to do it at a higher speed does get it done with
sooner.
Have you every driven on an unrestricted autobahn? Likely not. 120 is
slow in the fast lane. You have cars going 150 or more that come up
behind you with headlights flashing telling you to move over and NOW!
Gets you attention.
Even so, it still isn’t pushing the limits like competitive track
racing does,
until you talking about being on the ‘Bahn (or Autostrada) doing 100mph+ >> in the rain, at night.
Honestly, I would jump in any properly maintained car built for those
speeds and just drive it as fast as it would go.
As you say: in good conditions, it's just not much of a challenge; not compared racing at far lower speeds, but cornering at maximum g within
feet of the wall.
Between the apex of turns 8 and 9 is the time you need to apply full
throttle if you're going to go up the main straight to turn 1 fast
enough to be competitive. You're already doing 60+ mph and you're only a little more than half a football field away (63 yards or so) from a
concrete wall dead ahead of you.
Overcook it, and that wall arrives in a hurry.
I'm guessing neither Tom pulls maximum g in their aircraft when they're within 500 feet of anything. Hell, I doubt that either of them even
pulls maximum g manoeuvres on any regular basis.
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:48:36 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 10:34 a.m., Tom Elam wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 11:01:55 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 4:54 a.m., -hh wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:39:31 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:To be completely fair, my track is very flat.
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan
wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company offering
short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to people
with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual
gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for
the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses
with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people
huge thrills and some insight into what it's like
to drive a car at speed. The day started under wet
conditions, but got a lot better later on until we
finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with
instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in the
worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there
were only a couple who I need to prevent from
spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone needed
some demonstration of just how hard a car will
really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about
10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a survivor
of cancer, who had paid for rides in two of the
cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her
first go with me in the Camaro) asked if she ride
as a passenger with me for two more laps to really
see what the car could do. I think I gave her a
sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own,
warming up the car and also recording some video
for tutorial video for the company to offer for
those coming to the next event to actually see what
they're supposed to be seeing when they actually
get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in
May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe next >>>>>>>>> time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so
that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the
track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old
“engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious for.
Classical instance was too late corner deceleration
getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end
comes out as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles,
but usually racing cars are closer to the edge of that than
most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer
rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want
it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing...
...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from
the ground).
Plus tracks aren’t flat, so there are slope & momentum
considerations too.
But I doubt Tom does much extreme manoeuvring within a few feet of
the ground at up to 110mph.
:-)
That would be correct in an airplane. I have done the kind of demo racing you discussed on a short oval in a NASCAR Modified class race car.Try it on a road course.
It was a birthday present from the wife. Lot's of fun, and I didBecause you weren't actually close to the limit.
not spin out.
Top speed was about 110-120.As I said.
So's driving for miles andDriving for miles and miles on a highway is not very much fun at any speed...
miles at 120 or more in Germany!
...but being allowed to do it at a higher speed does get it done with sooner.
Have you every driven on an unrestricted autobahn? Likely not. 120 is
slow in the fast lane. You have cars going 150 or more that come up
behind you with headlights flashing telling you to move over and NOW!
Gets you attention.
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 7:47:38 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-23 7:39 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:06:45 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Sunshine...
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan
wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company offering
short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to people
with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual
gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for
the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses
with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people
huge thrills and some insight into what it's like
to drive a car at speed. The day started under wet
conditions, but got a lot better later on until we
finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with
instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in the
worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there
were only a couple who I need to prevent from
spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone needed
some demonstration of just how hard a car will
really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about
10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a survivor
of cancer, who had paid for rides in two of the
cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her
first go with me in the Camaro) asked if she ride
as a passenger with me for two more laps to really
see what the car could do. I think I gave her a
sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own,
warming up the car and also recording some video
for tutorial video for the company to offer for
those coming to the next event to actually see what
they're supposed to be seeing when they actually
get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in
May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe next >>>>>>>>> time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so
that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the
track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old
“engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious for.
Classical instance was too late corner deceleration
getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end
comes out as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles,
but usually racing cars are closer to the edge of that than
most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer
rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want
it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing...
...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from
the ground).
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you fucking
retard!!
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything you can hit in
comparison to where you place a racing car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already doing 60mph, and
I'm usually within two feet of the wall.
On the front straight, that speed is around 90mph, so I typically
leave 3-4 feet.
You keep your little glider literally 100s if not 1,000s of feet
from the nearest obstacle while flying...
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic lift when you're
doing it.
You keep on demonstrating your TOTAL IGNORANCE of flying and theI don't need to move "hundreds of feet" to be in trouble from a wind
hazards involved. Are you subject to falling hundreds of feet by a sudden wind gust?
gust. Less than 6 feet could result in me hitting a wall.
Whereas "hundreds of feet" in a glider means...
...stil being in the air.
I don't think so. You also never answered theIt depends where I spin. In a lot of places, it means hitting a wall at high speed.
question: what happens to you when you spin out.
But you've never acknowledged that pilots actively avoid flying in a regime where a spin is imminent...
...where racing drivers operate in that regime every lap (if they want
to win).
:-)You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.
The NTSB providesSo?
photographs of the aftermath of such accidents - go look them up.
On 2022-05-23 7:39 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:06:45 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Sunshine...
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan
wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company offering
short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to people
with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual
gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for
the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses
with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people
huge thrills and some insight into what it's like
to drive a car at speed. The day started under wet
conditions, but got a lot better later on until we
finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with
instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in the
worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there
were only a couple who I need to prevent from
spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone needed
some demonstration of just how hard a car will
really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about
10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a survivor
of cancer, who had paid for rides in two of the
cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her
first go with me in the Camaro) asked if she ride
as a passenger with me for two more laps to really
see what the car could do. I think I gave her a
sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own,
warming up the car and also recording some video
for tutorial video for the company to offer for
those coming to the next event to actually see what
they're supposed to be seeing when they actually
get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in
May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe next >>>>>>>>> time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so
that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the
track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old
“engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious for.
Classical instance was too late corner deceleration
getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end
comes out as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles,
but usually racing cars are closer to the edge of that than
most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer
rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want
it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing...
...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from
the ground).
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you fucking
retard!!
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything you can hit in
comparison to where you place a racing car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already doing 60mph, and
I'm usually within two feet of the wall.
On the front straight, that speed is around 90mph, so I typically
leave 3-4 feet.
You keep your little glider literally 100s if not 1,000s of feet
from the nearest obstacle while flying...
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic lift when you're
doing it.
You keep on demonstrating your TOTAL IGNORANCE of flying and theI don't need to move "hundreds of feet" to be in trouble from a wind
hazards involved. Are you subject to falling hundreds of feet by a
sudden wind gust?
gust. Less than 6 feet could result in me hitting a wall.
Whereas "hundreds of feet" in a glider means...
...stil being in the air.
I don't think so. You also never answered theIt depends where I spin. In a lot of places, it means hitting a wall at
question: what happens to you when you spin out.
high speed.
But you've never acknowledged that pilots actively avoid flying in a
regime where a spin is imminent...
...where racing drivers operate in that regime every lap (if they want
to win).
:-)
The NTSB providesSo?
photographs of the aftermath of such accidents - go look them up.
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 7:47:38 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-23 7:39 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:06:45 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:I don't need to move "hundreds of feet" to be in trouble from a wind
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Sunshine...
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan
wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company offering
short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to people
with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual
gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for
the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses
with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people
huge thrills and some insight into what it's like
to drive a car at speed. The day started under wet
conditions, but got a lot better later on until we
finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with
instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in the
worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there
were only a couple who I need to prevent from
spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone needed
some demonstration of just how hard a car will
really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about
10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a survivor
of cancer, who had paid for rides in two of the
cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her
first go with me in the Camaro) asked if she ride
as a passenger with me for two more laps to really
see what the car could do. I think I gave her a
sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own,
warming up the car and also recording some video
for tutorial video for the company to offer for
those coming to the next event to actually see what
they're supposed to be seeing when they actually
get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in
May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe next >>>>>>>>>>> time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so
that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the
track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old
“engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious for.
Classical instance was too late corner deceleration
getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end
comes out as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles,
but usually racing cars are closer to the edge of that than
most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer
rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want
it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing...
...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from
the ground).
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you fucking
retard!!
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything you can hit in
comparison to where you place a racing car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already doing 60mph, and
I'm usually within two feet of the wall.
On the front straight, that speed is around 90mph, so I typically
leave 3-4 feet.
You keep your little glider literally 100s if not 1,000s of feet
from the nearest obstacle while flying...
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic lift when you're
doing it.
You keep on demonstrating your TOTAL IGNORANCE of flying and the
hazards involved. Are you subject to falling hundreds of feet by a
sudden wind gust?
gust. Less than 6 feet could result in me hitting a wall.
Whereas "hundreds of feet" in a glider means...
...stil being in the air.
I don't think so. You also never answered theIt depends where I spin. In a lot of places, it means hitting a wall at
question: what happens to you when you spin out.
high speed.
But you've never acknowledged that pilots actively avoid flying in a
regime where a spin is imminent...
...where racing drivers operate in that regime every lap (if they want
to win).
:-)
The NTSB providesSo?
photographs of the aftermath of such accidents - go look them up.
You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:51:58 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 7:47:38 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-23 7:39 p.m., TomS wrote:You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:06:45 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:I don't need to move "hundreds of feet" to be in trouble from a wind
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Sunshine...
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan
wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company offering
short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to people
with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual
gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for
the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses
with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people
huge thrills and some insight into what it's like
to drive a car at speed. The day started under wet
conditions, but got a lot better later on until we
finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with
instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in the
worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there
were only a couple who I need to prevent from
spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone needed
some demonstration of just how hard a car will
really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about
10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a survivor
of cancer, who had paid for rides in two of the
cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her
first go with me in the Camaro) asked if she ride
as a passenger with me for two more laps to really
see what the car could do. I think I gave her a
sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own,
warming up the car and also recording some video
for tutorial video for the company to offer for
those coming to the next event to actually see what
they're supposed to be seeing when they actually
get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in
May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe next >>>>>>>>>>>> time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so
that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the
track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old
“engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious for. >>>>>>>>>> Classical instance was too late corner deceleration
getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end
comes out as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles,
but usually racing cars are closer to the edge of that than
most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer
rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want
it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing...
...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from
the ground).
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you fucking
retard!!
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything you can hit in
comparison to where you place a racing car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already doing 60mph, and
I'm usually within two feet of the wall.
On the front straight, that speed is around 90mph, so I typically
leave 3-4 feet.
You keep your little glider literally 100s if not 1,000s of feet
from the nearest obstacle while flying...
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic lift when you're
doing it.
You keep on demonstrating your TOTAL IGNORANCE of flying and the
hazards involved. Are you subject to falling hundreds of feet by a
sudden wind gust?
gust. Less than 6 feet could result in me hitting a wall.
Whereas "hundreds of feet" in a glider means...
...stil being in the air.
I don't think so. You also never answered theIt depends where I spin. In a lot of places, it means hitting a wall at
question: what happens to you when you spin out.
high speed.
But you've never acknowledged that pilots actively avoid flying in a
regime where a spin is imminent...
...where racing drivers operate in that regime every lap (if they want
to win).
:-)
The NTSB providesSo?
photographs of the aftermath of such accidents - go look them up.
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what happens to you when you spin out?
On 2022-05-21 10:34 a.m., Tom Elam wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 11:01:55 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 4:54 a.m., -hh wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:39:31 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:To be completely fair, my track is very flat.
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan
wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company offering
short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to people
with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual
gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for
the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses
with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people
huge thrills and some insight into what it's like
to drive a car at speed. The day started under wet
conditions, but got a lot better later on until we
finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with
instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in the
worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there
were only a couple who I need to prevent from
spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone needed
some demonstration of just how hard a car will
really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about
10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a survivor
of cancer, who had paid for rides in two of the
cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her
first go with me in the Camaro) asked if she ride
as a passenger with me for two more laps to really
see what the car could do. I think I gave her a
sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own,
warming up the car and also recording some video
for tutorial video for the company to offer for
those coming to the next event to actually see what
they're supposed to be seeing when they actually
get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in
May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe next >>>>>>>>> time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so
that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the
track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old
“engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious for.
Classical instance was too late corner deceleration
getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end
comes out as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles,
but usually racing cars are closer to the edge of that than
most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer
rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want
it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing...
...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from
the ground).
Plus tracks aren’t flat, so there are slope & momentum
considerations too.
But I doubt Tom does much extreme manoeuvring within a few feet of
the ground at up to 110mph.
:-)
That would be correct in an airplane. I have done the kind of demoTry it on a road course.
racing you discussed on a short oval in a NASCAR Modified class race
car.
It was a birthday present from the wife. Lot's of fun, and I didBecause you weren't actually close to the limit.
not spin out.
Top speed was about 110-120.As I said.
So's driving for miles andDriving for miles and miles on a highway is not very much fun at any speed...
miles at 120 or more in Germany!
...but being allowed to do it at a higher speed does get it done with sooner.
On 2022-05-25 7:52 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:51:58 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 7:47:38 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-23 7:39 p.m., TomS wrote:You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:06:45 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:I don't need to move "hundreds of feet" to be in trouble from a wind
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Sunshine...
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan
wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company offering >>>>>>>>>>>>> short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to people >>>>>>>>>>>>> with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual >>>>>>>>>>>>> gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for
the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses >>>>>>>>>>>>> with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people
huge thrills and some insight into what it's like >>>>>>>>>>>>> to drive a car at speed. The day started under wet >>>>>>>>>>>>> conditions, but got a lot better later on until we >>>>>>>>>>>>> finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with >>>>>>>>>>>>> instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there >>>>>>>>>>>>> were only a couple who I need to prevent from
spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone needed >>>>>>>>>>>>> some demonstration of just how hard a car will
really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about >>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a survivor >>>>>>>>>>>>> of cancer, who had paid for rides in two of the
cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her >>>>>>>>>>>>> first go with me in the Camaro) asked if she ride >>>>>>>>>>>>> as a passenger with me for two more laps to really >>>>>>>>>>>>> see what the car could do. I think I gave her a
sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own,
warming up the car and also recording some video
for tutorial video for the company to offer for
those coming to the next event to actually see what >>>>>>>>>>>>> they're supposed to be seeing when they actually
get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in
May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe next >>>>>>>>>>>> time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so >>>>>>>>>>>> that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the >>>>>>>>>>> track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old >>>>>>>>>> “engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious for. >>>>>>>>>> Classical instance was too late corner deceleration
getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end
comes out as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles, >>>>>>>>> but usually racing cars are closer to the edge of that than >>>>>>>>> most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer
rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want >>>>>>>>>> it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing...
...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from >>>>>>> the ground).
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you fucking
retard!!
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything you can hit in
comparison to where you place a racing car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already doing 60mph, and
I'm usually within two feet of the wall.
On the front straight, that speed is around 90mph, so I typically >>>>> leave 3-4 feet.
You keep your little glider literally 100s if not 1,000s of feet
from the nearest obstacle while flying...
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic lift when you're >>>>> doing it.
You keep on demonstrating your TOTAL IGNORANCE of flying and the
hazards involved. Are you subject to falling hundreds of feet by a
sudden wind gust?
gust. Less than 6 feet could result in me hitting a wall.
Whereas "hundreds of feet" in a glider means...
...stil being in the air.
I don't think so. You also never answered theIt depends where I spin. In a lot of places, it means hitting a wall at >>> high speed.
question: what happens to you when you spin out.
But you've never acknowledged that pilots actively avoid flying in a
regime where a spin is imminent...
...where racing drivers operate in that regime every lap (if they want >>> to win).
:-)
The NTSB providesSo?
photographs of the aftermath of such accidents - go look them up.
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what happens to you when you spin out?It depends.
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that might lead to a
spin in the first place!
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 2:48:36 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 10:34 a.m., Tom Elam wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 11:01:55 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Try it on a road course.
On 2022-05-21 4:54 a.m., -hh wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 12:39:31 AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:To be completely fair, my track is very flat.
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, AlanBelieve me, I understand that, too!
wrote:
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4,
Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company
offering short (mostly 3 lap) "race
experiences" to people with no previous track
experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang
(manual gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set
up with an auxiliary brake pedal and engine
kill switch for the passenger seat, full racing
seats and harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22
people huge thrills and some insight into what
it's like to drive a car at speed. The day
started under wet conditions, but got a lot
better later on until we finished up on a
completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid
with instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in
the worst car for driving in the wet; the
Camaro's throttle pedal is not very
progressive), and there were only a couple who
I need to prevent from spinning with the aux
brake. Almost everyone needed some
demonstration of just how hard a car will
really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with
about 10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a
survivor of cancer, who had paid for rides in
two of the cars (I think she went out in the
Mustang after her first go with me in the
Camaro) asked if she ride as a passenger with
me for two more laps to really see what the car
could do. I think I gave her a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my
own, warming up the car and also recording some
video for tutorial video for the company to
offer for those coming to the next event to
actually see what they're supposed to be seeing
when they actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in
May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe
next time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old
one so that you can have fun invoking lift
throttle oversteer to hang the back end waaaay
out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when
the track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the
old “engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious
for. Classical instance was too late corner
deceleration getting off the throttle in the corner &
the back end comes out as you’re slowing…big old
pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most
vehicles, but usually racing cars are closer to the
edge of that than most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the
oversteer rotation and power-push the nose back to
where you want it to be. Otherwise, you end up going
backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one
thing... ...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring
well away from the ground).
Plus tracks aren’t flat, so there are slope & momentum
considerations too.
But I doubt Tom does much extreme manoeuvring within a few feet
of the ground at up to 110mph.
:-)
That would be correct in an airplane. I have done the kind of
demo racing you discussed on a short oval in a NASCAR Modified
class race car.
It was a birthday present from the wife. Lot's of fun, and I didBecause you weren't actually close to the limit.
not spin out.
Top speed was about 110-120.As I said.
So's driving for miles and miles at 120 or more in Germany!Driving for miles and miles on a highway is not very much fun at
any speed...
...but being allowed to do it at a higher speed does get it done
with sooner.
I've done road courses in racing carts. Not recently, but spun out a
few times into the tire barriers.
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 10:55:52 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-25 7:52 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:51:58 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:It depends.
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 7:47:38 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-23 7:39 p.m., TomS wrote:You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:06:45 PM UTC-7, AlanI don't need to move "hundreds of feet" to be in trouble from
wrote:
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, AlanSunshine...
wrote:
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, AlanPlease.
wrote:
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4,Believe me, I understand that, too!
Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM
UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event
as a professional driving coach with a
company offering short (mostly 3 lap)
"race experiences" to people with no
previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang
(manual gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each
set up with an auxiliary brake pedal and
engine kill switch for the passenger
seat, full racing seats and harnesses
with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22
people huge thrills and some insight into
what it's like to drive a car at speed.
The day started under wet conditions, but
got a lot better later on until we
finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less
timid with instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one
really struggled to stay within the
limits of grip (in the worst car for
driving in the wet; the Camaro's throttle
pedal is not very progressive), and
there were only a couple who I need to
prevent from spinning with the aux brake.
Almost everyone needed some demonstration
of just how hard a car will really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers
with about 10 laps as driver. One very
nice lady, a survivor of cancer, who had
paid for rides in two of the cars (I
think she went out in the Mustang after
her first go with me in the Camaro) asked
if she ride as a passenger with me for
two more laps to really see what the car
could do. I think I gave her a sense for
it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on
my own, warming up the car and also
recording some video for tutorial video
for the company to offer for those coming
to the next event to actually see what
they're supposed to be seeing when they
actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a
Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g>
Maybe next time they’ll have a 911
…preferably an old one so that you can have
fun invoking lift throttle oversteer to
hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting
power-on oversteer out of the Camaro...
...especially when the track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer,
that the old “engine way in back” early 911’s
were notorious for. Classical instance was too
late corner deceleration getting off the
throttle in the corner & the back end comes out
as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most
vehicles, but usually racing cars are closer to
the edge of that than most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the
oversteer rotation and power-push the nose back
to where you want it to be. Otherwise, you end
up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one
thing... ...but you tend to do all the fancy
manoeuvring well away from the ground).
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you
fucking retard!!
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything you can
hit in comparison to where you place a racing car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already doing
60mph, and I'm usually within two feet of the wall.
On the front straight, that speed is around 90mph, so I
typically leave 3-4 feet.
You keep your little glider literally 100s if not 1,000s
of feet from the nearest obstacle while flying...
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic lift
when you're doing it.
You keep on demonstrating your TOTAL IGNORANCE of flying
and the hazards involved. Are you subject to falling
hundreds of feet by a sudden wind gust?
a wind gust. Less than 6 feet could result in me hitting a
wall.
Whereas "hundreds of feet" in a glider means...
...stil being in the air.
I don't think so. You also never answered the question:It depends where I spin. In a lot of places, it means hitting
what happens to you when you spin out.
a wall at high speed.
But you've never acknowledged that pilots actively avoid
flying in a regime where a spin is imminent...
...where racing drivers operate in that regime every lap (if
they want to win).
:-)
The NTSB provides photographs of the aftermath of suchSo?
accidents - go look them up.
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what happens to
you when you spin out?
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that might lead
to a spin in the first place!
I spin airplanes on purpose. It's pretty fun if you know the
recovery. If you do it too close to the ground you WILL die. Like
this guy, too steep, to slow:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=stall+spin+on+final&docid=608017045606266097&mid=06CD0937FA0FDA4815C406CD0937FA0FDA4815C4&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
Or this one just a few days ago:
https://www.flyingmag.com/fatal-accident-stops-stol-competition-in-nebraska/
If you spin a car into a race track wall your survival odds are a
lot better than an aircraft spin into the ground.
Tom Elam wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 10:55:52 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-25 7:52 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:51:58 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:vehicles, >>>>>>>>> but usually racing cars are closer to the edge
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 7:47:38 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-23 7:39 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:06:45 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company offering >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> huge thrills and some insight into what it's like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to drive a car at speed. The day started under wet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conditions, but got a lot better later on until we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were only a couple who I need to prevent from
spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone needed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some demonstration of just how hard a car will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a survivor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of cancer, who had paid for rides in two of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first go with me in the Camaro) asked if she ride >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a passenger with me for two more laps to really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see what the car could do. I think I gave her a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> warming up the car and also recording some video >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for tutorial video for the company to offer for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those coming to the next event to actually see what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're supposed to be seeing when they actually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe next >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old >>>>>>>>>>>>> “engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious for. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Classical instance was too late corner deceleration
getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end >>>>>>>>>>>>> comes out as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most
of that than >>>>>>>>> most road vehicles.
thing... >>>>>>> ...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvringPlease.Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer >>>>>>>>>>>>> rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want >>>>>>>>>>>>> it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one
well away from >>>>>>> the ground).
and >>>>> I'm usually within two feet of the wall.Sunshine...
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you fucking
retard!!
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything you can hit in
comparison to where you place a racing car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already doing 60mph,
typically >>>>> leave 3-4 feet.
On the front straight, that speed is around 90mph, so I
feet >>>>> from the nearest obstacle while flying...
You keep your little glider literally 100s if not 1,000s of
you're >>>>> doing it.
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic lift when
the >>>> hazards involved. Are you subject to falling hundreds of
You keep on demonstrating your TOTAL IGNORANCE of flying and
feet by a >>>> sudden wind gust?
wind >>> gust. Less than 6 feet could result in me hitting a wall.I don't need to move "hundreds of feet" to be in trouble from a
wall at >>> high speed.
Whereas "hundreds of feet" in a glider means...
...stil being in the air.
I don't think so. You also never answered theIt depends where I spin. In a lot of places, it means hitting a
question: what happens to you when you spin out.
in a >>> regime where a spin is imminent...
But you've never acknowledged that pilots actively avoid flying
they want >>> to win).
...where racing drivers operate in that regime every lap (if
up. >>> So?
:-)
The NTSB provides
photographs of the aftermath of such accidents - go look them
It depends.You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what happens to
you when you spin out?
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that might lead
to a spin in the first place!
I spin airplanes on purpose. It's pretty fun if you know the
recovery.
A stall turn is a standard acrobatic manoeuvre that I was taught as a
novice. Hardly the same as accidentally spinning out on a track.
IOW apples and oranges.
If you do it too close to the ground you WILL die. Likehttps://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=stall+spin+on+final&docid=608017045606266097&mid=06CD0937FA0FDA4815C406CD0937FA0FDA4815C4&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
this guy, too steep, to slow:
https://www.flyingmag.com/fatal-accident-stops-stol-competition-in-nebraska/
Or this one just a few days ago:
If you spin a car into a race track wall your survival odds are a lot
better than an aircraft spin into the ground.
The two bear no relation. A relatively small mistake can end in the
former. It takes a fairly massive error the end in the later.
I don't see why anyone who had a clue what they are talking about would
be directly comparing the two.
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 10:55:52 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-25 7:52 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:51:58 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:vehicles, >>>>>>>>> but usually racing cars are closer to the edge
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 7:47:38 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-23 7:39 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:06:45 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company offering >>>>>>>>>>>>> short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to people >>>>>>>>>>>>> with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual >>>>>>>>>>>>> gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an >>>>>>>>>>>>> auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for >>>>>>>>>>>>> the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses >>>>>>>>>>>>> with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people
huge thrills and some insight into what it's like >>>>>>>>>>>>> to drive a car at speed. The day started under wet >>>>>>>>>>>>> conditions, but got a lot better later on until we >>>>>>>>>>>>> finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with >>>>>>>>>>>>> instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there >>>>>>>>>>>>> were only a couple who I need to prevent from
spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone needed >>>>>>>>>>>>> some demonstration of just how hard a car will
really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about >>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a survivor >>>>>>>>>>>>> of cancer, who had paid for rides in two of the
cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her >>>>>>>>>>>>> first go with me in the Camaro) asked if she ride >>>>>>>>>>>>> as a passenger with me for two more laps to really >>>>>>>>>>>>> see what the car could do. I think I gave her a
sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, >>>>>>>>>>>>> warming up the car and also recording some video >>>>>>>>>>>>> for tutorial video for the company to offer for
those coming to the next event to actually see what >>>>>>>>>>>>> they're supposed to be seeing when they actually >>>>>>>>>>>>> get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in
May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe next >>>>>>>>>>>> time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so >>>>>>>>>>>> that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the >>>>>>>>>>> track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old >>>>>>>>>> “engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious for. >>>>>>>>>> Classical instance was too late corner deceleration
getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end
comes out as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most
of that than >>>>>>>>> most road vehicles.
thing... >>>>>>> ...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvringPlease.Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer
rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want >>>>>>>>>> it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one
well away from >>>>>>> the ground).
and >>>>> I'm usually within two feet of the wall.Sunshine...
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you fucking
retard!!
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything you can hit in
comparison to where you place a racing car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already doing 60mph,
typically >>>>> leave 3-4 feet.
On the front straight, that speed is around 90mph, so I
feet >>>>> from the nearest obstacle while flying...
You keep your little glider literally 100s if not 1,000s of
you're >>>>> doing it.
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic lift when
the >>>> hazards involved. Are you subject to falling hundreds of
You keep on demonstrating your TOTAL IGNORANCE of flying and
feet by a >>>> sudden wind gust?
wind >>> gust. Less than 6 feet could result in me hitting a wall.I don't need to move "hundreds of feet" to be in trouble from a
wall at >>> high speed.
Whereas "hundreds of feet" in a glider means...
...stil being in the air.
I don't think so. You also never answered theIt depends where I spin. In a lot of places, it means hitting a
question: what happens to you when you spin out.
in a >>> regime where a spin is imminent...
But you've never acknowledged that pilots actively avoid flying
they want >>> to win).
...where racing drivers operate in that regime every lap (if
up. >>> So?
:-)
The NTSB provides
photographs of the aftermath of such accidents - go look them
You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what happens toIt depends.
you when you spin out?
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that might lead
to a spin in the first place!
I spin airplanes on purpose. It's pretty fun if you know the
recovery.
If you do it too close to the ground you WILL die. Like
this guy, too steep, to slow:
Or this one just a few days ago:
If you spin a car into a race track wall your survival odds are a lot
better than an aircraft spin into the ground.
On 2022-05-26 11:27 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
Tom Elam wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 10:55:52 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-25 7:52 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:51:58 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:vehicles, >>>>>>>>> but usually racing cars are closer to the edge
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 7:47:38 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-23 7:39 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:06:45 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> professional driving coach with a company offering >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> huge thrills and some insight into what it's like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to drive a car at speed. The day started under wet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> conditions, but got a lot better later on until we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were only a couple who I need to prevent from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone needed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some demonstration of just how hard a car will >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a survivor >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of cancer, who had paid for rides in two of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first go with me in the Camaro) asked if she ride >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as a passenger with me for two more laps to really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> see what the car could do. I think I gave her a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> warming up the car and also recording some video >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for tutorial video for the company to offer for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those coming to the next event to actually see what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they're supposed to be seeing when they actually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe next >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old >>>>>>>>>>>>> “engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious for. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Classical instance was too late corner deceleration >>>>>>>>>>>>> getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end >>>>>>>>>>>>> comes out as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most
of that than >>>>>>>>> most road vehicles.
thing... >>>>>>> ...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvringPlease.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer >>>>>>>>>>>>> rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want >>>>>>>>>>>>> it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards… >>>>>>>>>>>> Yup. I teach it.
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one
well away from >>>>>>> the ground).
and >>>>> I'm usually within two feet of the wall.Sunshine...
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you fucking >>>>>>>>> retard!!
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything you can hit in >>>>>>>> comparison to where you place a racing car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already doing 60mph,
typically >>>>> leave 3-4 feet.
On the front straight, that speed is around 90mph, so I
feet >>>>> from the nearest obstacle while flying...
You keep your little glider literally 100s if not 1,000s of
you're >>>>> doing it.
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic lift when
the >>>> hazards involved. Are you subject to falling hundreds of
You keep on demonstrating your TOTAL IGNORANCE of flying and
feet by a >>>> sudden wind gust?
wind >>> gust. Less than 6 feet could result in me hitting a wall. >>>>>>I don't need to move "hundreds of feet" to be in trouble from a
wall at >>> high speed.Whereas "hundreds of feet" in a glider means...
...stil being in the air.
I don't think so. You also never answered theIt depends where I spin. In a lot of places, it means hitting a
question: what happens to you when you spin out.
in a >>> regime where a spin is imminent...
But you've never acknowledged that pilots actively avoid flying
they want >>> to win).
...where racing drivers operate in that regime every lap (if
up. >>> So?
:-)
The NTSB provides
photographs of the aftermath of such accidents - go look them
It depends.You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what happens to
you when you spin out?
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that might lead
to a spin in the first place!
I spin airplanes on purpose. It's pretty fun if you know the
recovery.
A stall turn is a standard acrobatic manoeuvre that I was taught as a novice. Hardly the same as accidentally spinning out on a track.
IOW apples and oranges.
If you do it too close to the ground you WILL die. Likehttps://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=stall+spin+on+final&docid=608017045606266097&mid=06CD0937FA0FDA4815C406CD0937FA0FDA4815C4&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
this guy, too steep, to slow:
https://www.flyingmag.com/fatal-accident-stops-stol-competition-in-nebraska/
Or this one just a few days ago:
If you spin a car into a race track wall your survival odds are a lot
better than an aircraft spin into the ground.
The two bear no relation. A relatively small mistake can end in the former. It takes a fairly massive error the end in the later.
I don't see why anyone who had a clue what they are talking about would
be directly comparing the two.
The Liarboy has to:
1. Immediately jump in to disagree with me.
2. Denigrate my racing and perforce, racing itself.
On 2022-05-25 7:52 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:51:58 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 7:47:38 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-23 7:39 p.m., TomS wrote:You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:06:45 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:I don't need to move "hundreds of feet" to be in trouble from a wind
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Sunshine...
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Please.
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan
wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company offering >>>>>>>>>>>>> short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to people >>>>>>>>>>>>> with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual >>>>>>>>>>>>> gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for
the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses >>>>>>>>>>>>> with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people
huge thrills and some insight into what it's like >>>>>>>>>>>>> to drive a car at speed. The day started under wet >>>>>>>>>>>>> conditions, but got a lot better later on until we >>>>>>>>>>>>> finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with >>>>>>>>>>>>> instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there >>>>>>>>>>>>> were only a couple who I need to prevent from
spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone needed >>>>>>>>>>>>> some demonstration of just how hard a car will
really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about >>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a survivor >>>>>>>>>>>>> of cancer, who had paid for rides in two of the
cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her >>>>>>>>>>>>> first go with me in the Camaro) asked if she ride >>>>>>>>>>>>> as a passenger with me for two more laps to really >>>>>>>>>>>>> see what the car could do. I think I gave her a
sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own,
warming up the car and also recording some video
for tutorial video for the company to offer for
those coming to the next event to actually see what >>>>>>>>>>>>> they're supposed to be seeing when they actually
get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in
May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe next >>>>>>>>>>>> time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so >>>>>>>>>>>> that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the >>>>>>>>>>> track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old >>>>>>>>>> “engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious for. >>>>>>>>>> Classical instance was too late corner deceleration
getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end
comes out as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles, >>>>>>>>> but usually racing cars are closer to the edge of that than >>>>>>>>> most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer
rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want >>>>>>>>>> it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing...
...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from >>>>>>> the ground).
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you fucking
retard!!
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything you can hit in
comparison to where you place a racing car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already doing 60mph, and
I'm usually within two feet of the wall.
On the front straight, that speed is around 90mph, so I typically >>>>> leave 3-4 feet.
You keep your little glider literally 100s if not 1,000s of feet
from the nearest obstacle while flying...
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic lift when you're >>>>> doing it.
You keep on demonstrating your TOTAL IGNORANCE of flying and the
hazards involved. Are you subject to falling hundreds of feet by a
sudden wind gust?
gust. Less than 6 feet could result in me hitting a wall.
Whereas "hundreds of feet" in a glider means...
...stil being in the air.
I don't think so. You also never answered theIt depends where I spin. In a lot of places, it means hitting a wall at >>> high speed.
question: what happens to you when you spin out.
But you've never acknowledged that pilots actively avoid flying in a
regime where a spin is imminent...
...where racing drivers operate in that regime every lap (if they want >>> to win).
:-)
The NTSB providesSo?
photographs of the aftermath of such accidents - go look them up.
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what happens to you when you spin out?It depends.
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that might lead to a
spin in the first place!
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:55:52 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-25 7:52 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:51:58 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:It depends.
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 7:47:38 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-23 7:39 p.m., TomS wrote:You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:06:45 PM UTC-7, AlanI don't need to move "hundreds of feet" to be in trouble from
wrote:
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, AlanSunshine...
wrote:
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, AlanPlease.
wrote:
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4,Believe me, I understand that, too!
Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM
UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event
as a professional driving coach with a
company offering short (mostly 3 lap)
"race experiences" to people with no
previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang
(manual gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each
set up with an auxiliary brake pedal and
engine kill switch for the passenger
seat, full racing seats and harnesses
with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22
people huge thrills and some insight into
what it's like to drive a car at speed.
The day started under wet conditions, but
got a lot better later on until we
finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less
timid with instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one
really struggled to stay within the
limits of grip (in the worst car for
driving in the wet; the Camaro's throttle
pedal is not very progressive), and
there were only a couple who I need to
prevent from spinning with the aux brake.
Almost everyone needed some demonstration
of just how hard a car will really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers
with about 10 laps as driver. One very
nice lady, a survivor of cancer, who had
paid for rides in two of the cars (I
think she went out in the Mustang after
her first go with me in the Camaro) asked
if she ride as a passenger with me for
two more laps to really see what the car
could do. I think I gave her a sense for
it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on
my own, warming up the car and also
recording some video for tutorial video
for the company to offer for those coming
to the next event to actually see what
they're supposed to be seeing when they
actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a
Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g>
Maybe next time they’ll have a 911
…preferably an old one so that you can have
fun invoking lift throttle oversteer to
hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting
power-on oversteer out of the Camaro...
...especially when the track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer,
that the old “engine way in back” early 911’s
were notorious for. Classical instance was too
late corner deceleration getting off the
throttle in the corner & the back end comes out
as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most
vehicles, but usually racing cars are closer to
the edge of that than most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the
oversteer rotation and power-push the nose back
to where you want it to be. Otherwise, you end
up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one
thing... ...but you tend to do all the fancy
manoeuvring well away from the ground).
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you
fucking retard!!
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything you can
hit in comparison to where you place a racing car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already doing
60mph, and I'm usually within two feet of the wall.
On the front straight, that speed is around 90mph, so I
typically leave 3-4 feet.
You keep your little glider literally 100s if not 1,000s
of feet from the nearest obstacle while flying...
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic lift
when you're doing it.
You keep on demonstrating your TOTAL IGNORANCE of flying
and the hazards involved. Are you subject to falling
hundreds of feet by a sudden wind gust?
a wind gust. Less than 6 feet could result in me hitting a
wall.
Whereas "hundreds of feet" in a glider means...
...stil being in the air.
I don't think so. You also never answered the question:It depends where I spin. In a lot of places, it means hitting
what happens to you when you spin out.
a wall at high speed.
But you've never acknowledged that pilots actively avoid
flying in a regime where a spin is imminent...
...where racing drivers operate in that regime every lap (if
they want to win).
:-)
The NTSB provides photographs of the aftermath of suchSo?
accidents - go look them up.
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what happens to
you when you spin out?
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that might lead
to a spin in the first place!
Actually, we fly A LOT (20 to 40 percent of total flight time) in a
flight regime that borders on a classic spin entry: flying just above
the edge of stall in a steep banked (45 degrees) turn.
How many of your friends and acquaintances have been killed while
racing cars?
This took me 5 minutes to find:It depends.You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.The NTSB providesSo?
photographs of the aftermath of such accidents - go look them up.
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what happens to you when you spin out?
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that might lead to a
spin in the first place!
Actually, we fly A LOT (20 to 40 percent of total flight time) in a flight regime that borders on a classic spin entry: flying just above the edge of stall in a steep banked (45 degrees) turn.
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:55:52 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-25 7:52 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:51:58 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 7:47:38 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-23 7:39 p.m., TomS wrote:You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:06:45 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:I don't need to move "hundreds of feet" to be in trouble from a wind >>> gust. Less than 6 feet could result in me hitting a wall.
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Sunshine...
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:Please.
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company offering >>>>>>>>>>>>> short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to people >>>>>>>>>>>>> with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual >>>>>>>>>>>>> gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an >>>>>>>>>>>>> auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for >>>>>>>>>>>>> the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses >>>>>>>>>>>>> with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people >>>>>>>>>>>>> huge thrills and some insight into what it's like >>>>>>>>>>>>> to drive a car at speed. The day started under wet >>>>>>>>>>>>> conditions, but got a lot better later on until we >>>>>>>>>>>>> finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with >>>>>>>>>>>>> instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there >>>>>>>>>>>>> were only a couple who I need to prevent from
spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone needed >>>>>>>>>>>>> some demonstration of just how hard a car will
really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about >>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a survivor >>>>>>>>>>>>> of cancer, who had paid for rides in two of the >>>>>>>>>>>>> cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her >>>>>>>>>>>>> first go with me in the Camaro) asked if she ride >>>>>>>>>>>>> as a passenger with me for two more laps to really >>>>>>>>>>>>> see what the car could do. I think I gave her a >>>>>>>>>>>>> sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, >>>>>>>>>>>>> warming up the car and also recording some video >>>>>>>>>>>>> for tutorial video for the company to offer for >>>>>>>>>>>>> those coming to the next event to actually see what >>>>>>>>>>>>> they're supposed to be seeing when they actually >>>>>>>>>>>>> get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in
May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe next >>>>>>>>>>>> time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so >>>>>>>>>>>> that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on
oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the >>>>>>>>>>> track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old >>>>>>>>>> “engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious for. >>>>>>>>>> Classical instance was too late corner deceleration
getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end >>>>>>>>>> comes out as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most vehicles, >>>>>>>>> but usually racing cars are closer to the edge of that than >>>>>>>>> most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer >>>>>>>>>> rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want >>>>>>>>>> it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one thing... >>>>>>> ...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvring well away from >>>>>>> the ground).
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you fucking
retard!!
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything you can hit in
comparison to where you place a racing car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already doing 60mph, and >>>>> I'm usually within two feet of the wall.
On the front straight, that speed is around 90mph, so I typically >>>>> leave 3-4 feet.
You keep your little glider literally 100s if not 1,000s of feet >>>>> from the nearest obstacle while flying...
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic lift when you're >>>>> doing it.
You keep on demonstrating your TOTAL IGNORANCE of flying and the
hazards involved. Are you subject to falling hundreds of feet by a >>>> sudden wind gust?
Whereas "hundreds of feet" in a glider means...
...stil being in the air.
I don't think so. You also never answered theIt depends where I spin. In a lot of places, it means hitting a wall at
question: what happens to you when you spin out.
high speed.
But you've never acknowledged that pilots actively avoid flying in a >>> regime where a spin is imminent...
...where racing drivers operate in that regime every lap (if they want >>> to win).
:-)
The NTSB providesSo?
photographs of the aftermath of such accidents - go look them up.
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what happens to you when you spin out?It depends.
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that might lead to a spin in the first place!
Actually, we fly A LOT (20 to 40 percent of total flight time) in a flight regime
that borders on a classic spin entry: flying just above the edge of stall in a
steep banked (45 degrees) turn.
How many of your friends and acquaintances have been killed while racing cars?
On 2022-05-26 7:00 p.m., TomS wrote:
It depends.You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.The NTSB provides
photographs of the aftermath of such accidents - go look them up. >>>>> So?
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what happens to you when you spin out?
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that might lead to a
spin in the first place!
Actually, we fly A LOT (20 to 40 percent of total flight time) in a flight regime that borders on a classic spin entry: flying just above the edge of stall in a steep banked (45 degrees) turn.This took me 5 minutes to find:
'However, physics is beautiful. As it turns out, the minimum sink speed
at bank angles greater than 0 degrees also increase at exactly the same
rate as stall speed, which is the square root of 1 divided by the cosine
of the angle of bank (1/cos(ang))0.5) – the square root of the load factor. This is very convenient because if a glider is flown in a
thermal at the optimum minimum sink speed for the angle of bank chosen,
the airspeed margin above accelerated stall speed is IDENTICAL to the
margin in level flight.'
So no, you're not flying in a flight regime that "borders on a classic
spin entry"...
...unless you're an idiot...
On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 7:30:09 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-26 7:00 p.m., TomS wrote:
This took me 5 minutes to find:It depends.You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.The NTSB provides
photographs of the aftermath of such accidents - go look them up. >>>>>>> So?
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what happens to you when you spin out?
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that might lead to a >>>> spin in the first place!
Actually, we fly A LOT (20 to 40 percent of total flight time) in a flight regime that borders on a classic spin entry: flying just above the edge of stall in a steep banked (45 degrees) turn.
'However, physics is beautiful. As it turns out, the minimum sink speed
at bank angles greater than 0 degrees also increase at exactly the same
rate as stall speed, which is the square root of 1 divided by the cosine
of the angle of bank (1/cos(ang))0.5) – the square root of the load
factor. This is very convenient because if a glider is flown in a
thermal at the optimum minimum sink speed for the angle of bank chosen,
the airspeed margin above accelerated stall speed is IDENTICAL to the
margin in level flight.'
So no, you're not flying in a flight regime that "borders on a classic
spin entry"...
...unless you're an idiot...
LOL! You obviously haven't flown a damn thing.
Tom Elam wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 10:55:52 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-25 7:52 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:51:58 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:vehicles, >>>>>>>>> but usually racing cars are closer to the edge
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 7:47:38 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-23 7:39 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:06:45 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:Believe me, I understand that, too!
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a
professional driving coach with a company offering >>>>>>>>>>>>> short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences" to people >>>>>>>>>>>>> with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual >>>>>>>>>>>>> gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an >>>>>>>>>>>>> auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for >>>>>>>>>>>>> the passenger seat, full racing seats and harnesses >>>>>>>>>>>>> with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people >>>>>>>>>>>>> huge thrills and some insight into what it's like >>>>>>>>>>>>> to drive a car at speed. The day started under wet >>>>>>>>>>>>> conditions, but got a lot better later on until we >>>>>>>>>>>>> finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less timid with >>>>>>>>>>>>> instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> worst car for driving in the wet; the Camaro's >>>>>>>>>>>>> throttle pedal is not very progressive), and there >>>>>>>>>>>>> were only a couple who I need to prevent from >>>>>>>>>>>>> spinning with the aux brake. Almost everyone needed >>>>>>>>>>>>> some demonstration of just how hard a car will >>>>>>>>>>>>> really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with about >>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a survivor >>>>>>>>>>>>> of cancer, who had paid for rides in two of the >>>>>>>>>>>>> cars (I think she went out in the Mustang after her >>>>>>>>>>>>> first go with me in the Camaro) asked if she ride >>>>>>>>>>>>> as a passenger with me for two more laps to really >>>>>>>>>>>>> see what the car could do. I think I gave her a >>>>>>>>>>>>> sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, >>>>>>>>>>>>> warming up the car and also recording some video >>>>>>>>>>>>> for tutorial video for the company to offer for >>>>>>>>>>>>> those coming to the next event to actually see what >>>>>>>>>>>>> they're supposed to be seeing when they actually >>>>>>>>>>>>> get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in >>>>>>>>>>>>> May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe next >>>>>>>>>>>> time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old one so >>>>>>>>>>>> that you can have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on >>>>>>>>>>> oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when the >>>>>>>>>>> track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the old >>>>>>>>>> “engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious for. >>>>>>>>>> Classical instance was too late corner deceleration >>>>>>>>>> getting off the throttle in the corner & the back end >>>>>>>>>> comes out as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most
of that than >>>>>>>>> most road vehicles.
thing... >>>>>>> ...but you tend to do all the fancy manoeuvringPlease.Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the oversteer >>>>>>>>>> rotation and power-push the nose back to where you want >>>>>>>>>> it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one
well away from >>>>>>> the ground).
and >>>>> I'm usually within two feet of the wall.Sunshine...
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you fucking >>>>>> retard!!
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything you can hit in >>>>> comparison to where you place a racing car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already doing 60mph,
typically >>>>> leave 3-4 feet.
On the front straight, that speed is around 90mph, so I
feet >>>>> from the nearest obstacle while flying...
You keep your little glider literally 100s if not 1,000s of
you're >>>>> doing it.
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic lift when
the >>>> hazards involved. Are you subject to falling hundreds of
You keep on demonstrating your TOTAL IGNORANCE of flying and
feet by a >>>> sudden wind gust?
wind >>> gust. Less than 6 feet could result in me hitting a wall.I don't need to move "hundreds of feet" to be in trouble from a
wall at >>> high speed.
Whereas "hundreds of feet" in a glider means...
...stil being in the air.
I don't think so. You also never answered theIt depends where I spin. In a lot of places, it means hitting a
question: what happens to you when you spin out.
in a >>> regime where a spin is imminent...
But you've never acknowledged that pilots actively avoid flying
they want >>> to win).
...where racing drivers operate in that regime every lap (if
up. >>> So?
:-)
The NTSB provides
photographs of the aftermath of such accidents - go look them
You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what happens toIt depends.
you when you spin out?
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that might lead
to a spin in the first place!
I spin airplanes on purpose. It's pretty fun if you know theA stall turn is a standard acrobatic manoeuvre that I was taught as a novice. Hardly the same as accidentally spinning out on a track.
recovery.
IOW apples and oranges.
If you do it too close to the ground you WILL die. Like
this guy, too steep, to slow:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=stall+spin+on+final&docid=608017045606266097&mid=06CD0937FA0FDA4815C406CD0937FA0FDA4815C4&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
Or this one just a few days ago:
https://www.flyingmag.com/fatal-accident-stops-stol-competition-in-nebraska/
If you spin a car into a race track wall your survival odds are a lot better than an aircraft spin into the ground.The two bear no relation. A relatively small mistake can end in the
former. It takes a fairly massive error the end in the later.
I don't see why anyone who had a clue what they are talking about would
be directly comparing the two.
--
Bozo bin
Amos P (transgender nymshifter)
Jerry C. (same attention seeking nymshifter)
Michael P. (transgender nymshifter)
Felicity (transgender nymshifter)
George R (transgender nymshifter)
Irving S (transgender nymshifter)
Enjoy!
On 2022-05-26 8:13 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 7:30:09 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-26 7:00 p.m., TomS wrote:
This took me 5 minutes to find:It depends.You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.The NTSB provides
photographs of the aftermath of such accidents - go look them up. >>>>>>> So?
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what happens to you when you spin out?
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that might lead to a >>>> spin in the first place!
Actually, we fly A LOT (20 to 40 percent of total flight time) in a flight regime that borders on a classic spin entry: flying just above the edge of stall in a steep banked (45 degrees) turn.
'However, physics is beautiful. As it turns out, the minimum sink speed >> at bank angles greater than 0 degrees also increase at exactly the same >> rate as stall speed, which is the square root of 1 divided by the cosine >> of the angle of bank (1/cos(ang))0.5) – the square root of the load
factor. This is very convenient because if a glider is flown in a
thermal at the optimum minimum sink speed for the angle of bank chosen, >> the airspeed margin above accelerated stall speed is IDENTICAL to the
margin in level flight.'
So no, you're not flying in a flight regime that "borders on a classic
spin entry"...
...unless you're an idiot...
LOL! You obviously haven't flown a damn thing.Me? Almost none at all...
...but I was an avid follower of aviation.
And the guy I just quoted? Lemme see:
'About the author: Steve is a commercial pilot in single engine
airplanes, single engine seaplanes, and gliders. He holds an instrument rating and is a Certified Flight Instructor for airplanes, instruments,
and gliders. He has logged over 4,000 flight hr including over 2,000 hr
as a flight instructor. He is a retired IBM Engineering Manager and is a member of the Flight Instructor staff at Sugarbush Soaring,
Warren-Sugarbush Airport, Warren, VT.'
<http://www.omagdigital.com/publication/?i=402355&article_id=2767735&view=articleBrowser&ver=html5>
Oops.
So... ...you fly regularly, so let's see you answer a couple of
questions about your sailplane.
What is the stall speed (we'll assume without any ballast)?
What is the minimum sink speed (same assumption)?
Hey, Sunshine?
On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 11:21:06 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-26 8:13 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 7:30:09 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:Me? Almost none at all...
On 2022-05-26 7:00 p.m., TomS wrote:
This took me 5 minutes to find:It depends.You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.The NTSB provides photographs of the aftermath ofSo?
such accidents - go look them up.
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what
happens to you when you spin out?
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious
injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that
might lead to a spin in the first place!
Actually, we fly A LOT (20 to 40 percent of total flight
time) in a flight regime that borders on a classic spin
entry: flying just above the edge of stall in a steep banked
(45 degrees) turn.
'However, physics is beautiful. As it turns out, the minimum
sink speed at bank angles greater than 0 degrees also increase
at exactly the same rate as stall speed, which is the square
root of 1 divided by the cosine of the angle of bank
(1/cos(ang))0.5) – the square root of the load factor. This is
very convenient because if a glider is flown in a thermal at
the optimum minimum sink speed for the angle of bank chosen,
the airspeed margin above accelerated stall speed is IDENTICAL
to the margin in level flight.'
So no, you're not flying in a flight regime that "borders on a
classic spin entry"...
...unless you're an idiot...
LOL! You obviously haven't flown a damn thing.
...but I was an avid follower of aviation.
And the guy I just quoted? Lemme see:
'About the author: Steve is a commercial pilot in single engine
airplanes, single engine seaplanes, and gliders. He holds an
instrument rating and is a Certified Flight Instructor for
airplanes, instruments, and gliders. He has logged over 4,000
flight hr including over 2,000 hr as a flight instructor. He is a
retired IBM Engineering Manager and is a member of the Flight
Instructor staff at Sugarbush Soaring, Warren-Sugarbush Airport,
Warren, VT.'
<http://www.omagdigital.com/publication/?i=402355&article_id=2767735&view=articleBrowser&ver=html5>
Oops.
So... ...you fly regularly, so let's see you answer a couple of
questions about your sailplane.
What is the stall speed (we'll assume without any ballast)?
What is the minimum sink speed (same assumption)?
Hey, Sunshine?
Avid aviation follower? Really? How much time do you have in small
aircraft? I'd ask some obscure technical questions but you can just
go look up the answers.
How many hours do you have logged as pilot in command? When did you
pass the written test for a pilot's license? What are your aviation
academic or experience qualifications?
By the way, your first question above REALLY shows your ignorance. An aircraft can stall at ANY indicated airspeed if it has enough
elevator authority and does not break up first. Minimum sink rate
speed depends on bank angle. The steeper the bank the higher the
minimum rate speed. There is no one answer to either question.
On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 2:27:12 PM UTC-4, Bigbird wrote:
Tom Elam wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 10:55:52 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:A stall turn is a standard acrobatic manoeuvre that I was taught as
On 2022-05-25 7:52 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:51:58 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:vehicles, >>>>>>>>> but usually racing cars are closer to the
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 7:47:38 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-23 7:39 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:06:45 PM UTC-7, Alan
wrote:
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, Alan
wrote:
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7,
Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PMBelieve me, I understand that, too!
UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM
UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second
event as a professional driving coach
with a company offering short (mostly
3 lap) "race experiences" to people
with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern
Mustang (manual gearbox), and a
Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill
switch for the passenger seat, full
racing seats and harnesses with roll
bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave
22 people huge thrills and some
insight into what it's like to drive
a car at speed. The day started under
wet conditions, but got a lot better
later on until we finished up on a
completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became
less timid with instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one
really struggled to stay within the
limits of grip (in the worst car for
driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very
progressive), and there were only a
couple who I need to prevent from
spinning with the aux brake. Almost
everyone needed some demonstration of
just how hard a car will really
stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with
customers with about 10 laps as
driver. One very nice lady, a
survivor of cancer, who had paid for
rides in two of the cars (I think she
went out in the Mustang after her
first go with me in the Camaro) asked
if she ride as a passenger with me
for two more laps to really see what
the car could do. I think I gave her
a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps
on my own, warming up the car and
also recording some video for
tutorial video for the company to
offer for those coming to the next
event to actually see what they're
supposed to be seeing when they
actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a
Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office”
<g> Maybe next time they’ll have a 911
…preferably an old one so that you can
have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay
out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting
power-on oversteer out of the Camaro...
...especially when the track was still
wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer,
that the old “engine way in back” early
911’s were notorious for. Classical
instance was too late corner deceleration
getting off the throttle in the corner &
the back end comes out as you’re
slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than
most
edge of that than >>>>>>>>> most road vehicles.
thing... >>>>>>> ...but you tend to do all the fancyPlease.Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the
oversteer rotation and power-push the nose
back to where you want it to be. Otherwise,
you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK,
one
manoeuvring well away from >>>>>>> the ground).
and >>>>> I'm usually within two feet of the wall.Sunshine...
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you
fucking retard!!
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything you
can hit in comparison to where you place a racing
car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already doing
60mph,
typically >>>>> leave 3-4 feet.
On the front straight, that speed is around 90mph, so
I
feet >>>>> from the nearest obstacle while flying...
You keep your little glider literally 100s if not
1,000s of
you're >>>>> doing it.
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic lift
when
the >>>> hazards involved. Are you subject to falling hundreds
You keep on demonstrating your TOTAL IGNORANCE of
flying and
of feet by a >>>> sudden wind gust?
wind >>> gust. Less than 6 feet could result in me hitting aI don't need to move "hundreds of feet" to be in trouble
from a
wall.
wall at >>> high speed.
Whereas "hundreds of feet" in a glider means...
...stil being in the air.
I don't think so. You also never answered the question:It depends where I spin. In a lot of places, it means
what happens to you when you spin out.
hitting a
in a >>> regime where a spin is imminent...
But you've never acknowledged that pilots actively avoid
flying
they want >>> to win).
...where racing drivers operate in that regime every lap
(if
up. >>> So?
:-)
The NTSB provides photographs of the aftermath of such
accidents - go look them
It depends.You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what happens
to you when you spin out?
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that might
lead to a spin in the first place!
I spin airplanes on purpose. It's pretty fun if you know the
recovery.
a novice. Hardly the same as accidentally spinning out on a track.
IOW apples and oranges.
If you do it too close to the ground you WILL die. Like this guy,https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=stall+spin+on+final&docid=608017045606266097&mid=06CD0937FA0FDA4815C406CD0937FA0FDA4815C4&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
too steep, to slow:
https://www.flyingmag.com/fatal-accident-stops-stol-competition-in-nebraska/ >>>
Or this one just a few days ago:
The two bear no relation. A relatively small mistake can end in
If you spin a car into a race track wall your survival odds are a
lot
better than an aircraft spin into the ground.
the former. It takes a fairly massive error the end in the later.
I don't see why anyone who had a clue what they are talking about
would be directly comparing the two.
-- Bozo bin Amos P (transgender nymshifter) Jerry C. (same
attention seeking nymshifter) Michael P. (transgender nymshifter)
Felicity (transgender nymshifter) George R (transgender
nymshifter) Irving S (transgender nymshifter) Enjoy!
Alan, you just demonstrated your ignorance again! Both accidents were
caused by pilots flying so slow that the aircraft stalled and spun.
There was insufficient altitude for recovery. The aircraft went in
more or less vertically at high speed, killing the pilots. in both
case a few knots more airspeed and no spins would have happened. This
can be insidious. I know, I have had an unintentional aircraft spin.
I'm sure you have had the same in a race car.
On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 2:27:12 PM UTC-4, Bigbird wrote:
Tom Elam wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 10:55:52 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-25 7:52 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:51:58 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:wrote: >>>>> On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 7:47:38 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-23 7:39 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:06:45 PM UTC-7, Alan
wrote: >>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, Alan
wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4, Alan
offering >>>>>>>>>>>>> short (mostly 3 lap) "race experiences"On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM UTC-4, Alan >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event as a >>>>>>>>>>>>> professional driving coach with a company
to people >>>>>>>>>>>>> with no previous track experience. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
harnesses >>>>>>>>>>>>> with roll bar added.Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang (manual >>>>>>>>>>>>> gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each set up with an >>>>>>>>>>>>> auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill switch for >>>>>>>>>>>>> the passenger seat, full racing seats and
wet >>>>>>>>>>>>> conditions, but got a lot better later on
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22 people >>>>>>>>>>>>> huge thrills and some insight into what it's like >>>>>>>>>>>>> to drive a car at speed. The day started under
until we >>>>>>>>>>>>> finished up on a completely dry track. >>>>>>>>>>>>>
with >>>>>>>>>>>>> instruction.A lot were timid, but a few became less timid
the >>>>>>>>>>>>> worst car for driving in the wet; the
A few were less timid, but only one really
struggled to stay within the limits of grip (in
Camaro's >>>>>>>>>>>>> throttle pedal is not very progressive),
and there >>>>>>>>>>>>> were only a couple who I need to
prevent from >>>>>>>>>>>>> spinning with the aux brake. Almost
everyone needed >>>>>>>>>>>>> some demonstration of just how
hard a car will >>>>>>>>>>>>> really stop.
about >>>>>>>>>>>>> 10 laps as driver. One very nice lady, a
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers with
survivor >>>>>>>>>>>>> of cancer, who had paid for rides in two
of the >>>>>>>>>>>>> cars (I think she went out in the Mustang
after her >>>>>>>>>>>>> first go with me in the Camaro) asked
if she ride >>>>>>>>>>>>> as a passenger with me for two more
laps to really >>>>>>>>>>>>> see what the car could do. I think
I gave her a >>>>>>>>>>>>> sense for it.
what >>>>>>>>>>>>> they're supposed to be seeing when they
And I also did probably about 15 laps on my own, >>>>>>>>>>>>> warming up the car and also recording some video >>>>>>>>>>>>> for tutorial video for the company to offer for >>>>>>>>>>>>> those coming to the next event to actually see
actually >>>>>>>>>>>>> get out there.
next >>>>>>>>>>>> time they’ll have a 911 …preferably an old
All-in-all, a great way to spend a Thursday in >>>>>>>>>>>>> May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g> Maybe
one so >>>>>>>>>>>> that you can have fun invoking lift
throttle >>>>>>>>>>>> oversteer to hang the back end waaaay
out. >>>>>>>>>>>
the >>>>>>>>>>> track was still wet.Believe me: there was no problem getting power-on >>>>>>>>>>> oversteer out of the Camaro... ...especially when
old >>>>>>>>>> “engine way in back” early 911’s were notorious for. >>>>>>>>>> Classical instance was too late corner
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer, that the
deceleration >>>>>>>>>> getting off the throttle in the corner
& the back end >>>>>>>>>> comes out as you’re slowing…big old pendulum. >>>>>>>>> Believe me, I understand that, too!
vehicles, >>>>>>>>> but usually racing cars are closer to the
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most
edge of that than >>>>>>>>> most road vehicles.
oversteer >>>>>>>>>> rotation and power-push the nose back to
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the
where you want >>>>>>>>>> it to be. Otherwise, you end up going backwards… >>>>>>>>> Yup. I teach it.
thing... >>>>>>> ...but you tend to do all the fancyPlease.
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one
manoeuvring well away from >>>>>>> the ground).
fucking >>>>>> retard!!
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you
hit in >>>>> comparison to where you place a racing car.Sunshine...
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything you can
60mph, and >>>>> I'm usually within two feet of the wall.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already doing
typically >>>>> leave 3-4 feet.
On the front straight, that speed is around 90mph, so I
of feet >>>>> from the nearest obstacle while flying...
You keep your little glider literally 100s if not 1,000s
when you're >>>>> doing it.
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic lift
and the >>>> hazards involved. Are you subject to falling
You keep on demonstrating your TOTAL IGNORANCE of flying
hundreds of feet by a >>>> sudden wind gust?
from a wind >>> gust. Less than 6 feet could result in meI don't need to move "hundreds of feet" to be in trouble
hitting a wall. >>>
hitting a wall at >>> high speed.Whereas "hundreds of feet" in a glider means...
...stil being in the air.
I don't think so. You also never answered theIt depends where I spin. In a lot of places, it means
question: what happens to you when you spin out.
flying in a >>> regime where a spin is imminent...
But you've never acknowledged that pilots actively avoid
(if they want >>> to win).
...where racing drivers operate in that regime every lap
them up. >>> So?
:-)
The NTSB provides
photographs of the aftermath of such accidents - go look
You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what happensIt depends.
to you when you spin out?
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that might
lead to a spin in the first place!
I spin airplanes on purpose. It's pretty fun if you know theA stall turn is a standard acrobatic manoeuvre that I was taught as
recovery.
a novice. Hardly the same as accidentally spinning out on a track.
IOW apples and oranges.
If you do it too close to the ground you WILL die. Like
this guy, too steep, to slow:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=stall+spin+on+final&docid=60801 7045606266097&mid=06CD0937FA0FDA4815C406CD0937FA0FDA4815C4&view=deta il&FORM=VIRE
Or this one just a few days ago:
https://www.flyingmag.com/fatal-accident-stops-stol-competition-in-n ebraska/
If you spin a car into a race track wall your survival odds are aThe two bear no relation. A relatively small mistake can end in the
lot better than an aircraft spin into the ground.
former. It takes a fairly massive error the end in the later.
I don't see why anyone who had a clue what they are talking about
would be directly comparing the two.
--
Bozo bin
Amos P (transgender nymshifter)
Jerry C. (same attention seeking nymshifter)
Michael P. (transgender nymshifter)
Felicity (transgender nymshifter)
George R (transgender nymshifter)
Irving S (transgender nymshifter)
Enjoy!
Alan,
you just demonstrated your ignorance again! Both accidents
On 2022-05-27 7:56 a.m., Tom Elam wrote:
On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 2:27:12 PM UTC-4, Bigbird wrote:
Tom Elam wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 10:55:52 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:A stall turn is a standard acrobatic manoeuvre that I was taught as
On 2022-05-25 7:52 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:51:58 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:vehicles, >>>>>>>>> but usually racing cars are closer to the
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 7:47:38 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-23 7:39 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:06:45 PM UTC-7, Alan
wrote:
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, Alan
wrote:
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7,
Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PMBelieve me, I understand that, too!
UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM
UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second
event as a professional driving coach
with a company offering short (mostly
3 lap) "race experiences" to people
with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern
Mustang (manual gearbox), and a
Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill
switch for the passenger seat, full
racing seats and harnesses with roll
bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave
22 people huge thrills and some
insight into what it's like to drive
a car at speed. The day started under
wet conditions, but got a lot better
later on until we finished up on a
completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became
less timid with instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one
really struggled to stay within the
limits of grip (in the worst car for
driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very
progressive), and there were only a
couple who I need to prevent from
spinning with the aux brake. Almost
everyone needed some demonstration of
just how hard a car will really
stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with
customers with about 10 laps as
driver. One very nice lady, a
survivor of cancer, who had paid for
rides in two of the cars (I think she
went out in the Mustang after her
first go with me in the Camaro) asked
if she ride as a passenger with me
for two more laps to really see what
the car could do. I think I gave her
a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps
on my own, warming up the car and
also recording some video for
tutorial video for the company to
offer for those coming to the next
event to actually see what they're
supposed to be seeing when they
actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a
Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office”
<g> Maybe next time they’ll have a 911
…preferably an old one so that you can
have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay
out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting
power-on oversteer out of the Camaro...
...especially when the track was still
wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer,
that the old “engine way in back” early
911’s were notorious for. Classical
instance was too late corner deceleration
getting off the throttle in the corner &
the back end comes out as you’re
slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than
most
edge of that than >>>>>>>>> most road vehicles.
thing... >>>>>>> ...but you tend to do all the fancyPlease.Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the
oversteer rotation and power-push the nose
back to where you want it to be. Otherwise,
you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK,
one
manoeuvring well away from >>>>>>> the ground).
and >>>>> I'm usually within two feet of the wall.Sunshine...
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you
fucking retard!!
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything you
can hit in comparison to where you place a racing
car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already doing
60mph,
typically >>>>> leave 3-4 feet.
On the front straight, that speed is around 90mph, so
I
feet >>>>> from the nearest obstacle while flying...
You keep your little glider literally 100s if not
1,000s of
you're >>>>> doing it.
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic lift
when
the >>>> hazards involved. Are you subject to falling hundreds
You keep on demonstrating your TOTAL IGNORANCE of
flying and
of feet by a >>>> sudden wind gust?
wind >>> gust. Less than 6 feet could result in me hitting aI don't need to move "hundreds of feet" to be in trouble
from a
wall.
wall at >>> high speed.
Whereas "hundreds of feet" in a glider means...
...stil being in the air.
I don't think so. You also never answered the question:It depends where I spin. In a lot of places, it means
what happens to you when you spin out.
hitting a
in a >>> regime where a spin is imminent...
But you've never acknowledged that pilots actively avoid
flying
they want >>> to win).
...where racing drivers operate in that regime every lap
(if
up. >>> So?
:-)
The NTSB provides photographs of the aftermath of such
accidents - go look them
It depends.You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what happens
to you when you spin out?
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that might
lead to a spin in the first place!
I spin airplanes on purpose. It's pretty fun if you know the
recovery.
a novice. Hardly the same as accidentally spinning out on a track.
IOW apples and oranges.
If you do it too close to the ground you WILL die. Like this guy,https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=stall+spin+on+final&docid=608017045606266097&mid=06CD0937FA0FDA4815C406CD0937FA0FDA4815C4&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
too steep, to slow:
https://www.flyingmag.com/fatal-accident-stops-stol-competition-in-nebraska/
Or this one just a few days ago:
The two bear no relation. A relatively small mistake can end in
If you spin a car into a race track wall your survival odds are a
lot
better than an aircraft spin into the ground.
the former. It takes a fairly massive error the end in the later.
I don't see why anyone who had a clue what they are talking about
would be directly comparing the two.
-- Bozo bin Amos P (transgender nymshifter) Jerry C. (same
attention seeking nymshifter) Michael P. (transgender nymshifter)
Felicity (transgender nymshifter) George R (transgender
nymshifter) Irving S (transgender nymshifter) Enjoy!
Alan, you just demonstrated your ignorance again! Both accidents were caused by pilots flying so slow that the aircraft stalled and spun.Liarboy, you're not answering me.
There was insufficient altitude for recovery. The aircraft went in
more or less vertically at high speed, killing the pilots. in both
case a few knots more airspeed and no spins would have happened. This
can be insidious. I know, I have had an unintentional aircraft spin.
I'm sure you have had the same in a race car.
And yes: I have had quite a few spins in a race car. That's because that
is the regime where one has to drive a racing car if you want to be fast.
One of your accidents makes my point for me.
'
The MayDay STOL competition in Wayne, Nebraska, came to an abrupt and
tragic halt on Friday evening with the loss of pilot Tom Dafoe, who was piloting a 1946 Cessna 140.
Dafoe was flying in the fourth heat of a traditional STOL pickup match
when the Cessna entered a stall-spin around 300 feet agl, from straight-and-level flight with airspeed low, according to eyewitnesses
on the scene at Wayne Municipal-Stan Morris Field. The subsequent impact took Dafoe’s life.'
Dafoe was doing something similar to what I do: taking risks in order to
win a competition.
The other? Well, read for yourself:
'Although the pilot had received 1.0 hours of flight training in the accident airplane in the 30 days before the accident, he only performed
2 solo takeoffs and landings. This training did not include training on stall characteristics, which the Federal Aviation Administration
recommends. If the pilot had received stall training in the airplane, he would likely have been aware of the appropriate airspeeds and pitch attitudes to use while maneuvering after takeoff, and this may have prevented the accident. '
He didn't die because aviating is inherently risky:
he died because he was IGNORANT.
On 2022-05-26 8:13 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 7:30:09 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-26 7:00 p.m., TomS wrote:
This took me 5 minutes to find:It depends.You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.The NTSB provides
photographs of the aftermath of such accidents - go look them up. >>>>>>> So?
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what happens to you when you spin out?
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that might lead to a >>>> spin in the first place!
Actually, we fly A LOT (20 to 40 percent of total flight time) in a flight regime that borders on a classic spin entry: flying just above the edge of stall in a steep banked (45 degrees) turn.
'However, physics is beautiful. As it turns out, the minimum sink speed >> at bank angles greater than 0 degrees also increase at exactly the same >> rate as stall speed, which is the square root of 1 divided by the cosine >> of the angle of bank (1/cos(ang))0.5) – the square root of the load
factor. This is very convenient because if a glider is flown in a
thermal at the optimum minimum sink speed for the angle of bank chosen, >> the airspeed margin above accelerated stall speed is IDENTICAL to the
margin in level flight.'
So no, you're not flying in a flight regime that "borders on a classic
spin entry"...
...unless you're an idiot...
LOL! You obviously haven't flown a damn thing.Me? Almost none at all...
...but I was an avid follower of aviation.
And the guy I just quoted? Lemme see:
'About the author: Steve is a commercial pilot in single engine
airplanes, single engine seaplanes, and gliders. He holds an instrument rating and is a Certified Flight Instructor for airplanes, instruments,
and gliders. He has logged over 4,000 flight hr including over 2,000 hr
as a flight instructor. He is a retired IBM Engineering Manager and is a member of the Flight Instructor staff at Sugarbush Soaring,
Warren-Sugarbush Airport, Warren, VT.'
<http://www.omagdigital.com/publication/?i=402355&article_id=2767735&view=articleBrowser&ver=html5>
Oops.
So... ...you fly regularly, so let's see you answer a couple of
questions about your sailplane.
What is the stall speed (we'll assume without any ballast)?
What is the minimum sink speed (same assumption)?
Hey, Sunshine?
On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 2:02:23 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:recovery is possible. But, soaring airspeeds are much closer to stall, typically 1.3-1.4 x Vs1, than powered small aircraft at cruise, typically 2-3 x Vs1. I have experienced a unintentional spin at about 2x Vs1. It was at about 3,000 AGL. Startling, but
On 2022-05-27 7:56 a.m., Tom Elam wrote:
On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 2:27:12 PM UTC-4, Bigbird wrote:
Tom Elam wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 10:55:52 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:A stall turn is a standard acrobatic manoeuvre that I was taught as
On 2022-05-25 7:52 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:51:58 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:vehicles, >>>>>>>>> but usually racing cars are closer to the
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 7:47:38 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-23 7:39 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:06:45 PM UTC-7, Alan
wrote:
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, Alan
wrote:
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7,
Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PMBelieve me, I understand that, too!
UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM
UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second
event as a professional driving coach
with a company offering short (mostly
3 lap) "race experiences" to people
with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern
Mustang (manual gearbox), and a
Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill
switch for the passenger seat, full
racing seats and harnesses with roll
bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave
22 people huge thrills and some
insight into what it's like to drive
a car at speed. The day started under
wet conditions, but got a lot better
later on until we finished up on a
completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became
less timid with instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one
really struggled to stay within the
limits of grip (in the worst car for
driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very
progressive), and there were only a
couple who I need to prevent from
spinning with the aux brake. Almost
everyone needed some demonstration of
just how hard a car will really
stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with
customers with about 10 laps as
driver. One very nice lady, a
survivor of cancer, who had paid for
rides in two of the cars (I think she
went out in the Mustang after her
first go with me in the Camaro) asked
if she ride as a passenger with me
for two more laps to really see what
the car could do. I think I gave her
a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps
on my own, warming up the car and
also recording some video for
tutorial video for the company to
offer for those coming to the next
event to actually see what they're
supposed to be seeing when they
actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a
Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <g> Maybe next time they’ll have a 911
…preferably an old one so that you can
have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay
out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting
power-on oversteer out of the Camaro...
...especially when the track was still
wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer,
that the old “engine way in back” early
911’s were notorious for. Classical
instance was too late corner deceleration
getting off the throttle in the corner &
the back end comes out as you’re
slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than
most
edge of that than >>>>>>>>> most road vehicles.
thing... >>>>>>> ...but you tend to do all the fancyPlease.Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the
oversteer rotation and power-push the nose
back to where you want it to be. Otherwise,
you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK,
one
manoeuvring well away from >>>>>>> the ground).
and >>>>> I'm usually within two feet of the wall.Sunshine...
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you
fucking retard!!
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything you
can hit in comparison to where you place a racing
car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already doing
60mph,
typically >>>>> leave 3-4 feet.
On the front straight, that speed is around 90mph, so
I
feet >>>>> from the nearest obstacle while flying...
You keep your little glider literally 100s if not
1,000s of
you're >>>>> doing it.
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic lift
when
the >>>> hazards involved. Are you subject to falling hundreds
You keep on demonstrating your TOTAL IGNORANCE of
flying and
of feet by a >>>> sudden wind gust?
wind >>> gust. Less than 6 feet could result in me hitting aI don't need to move "hundreds of feet" to be in trouble
from a
wall.
wall at >>> high speed.
Whereas "hundreds of feet" in a glider means...
...stil being in the air.
I don't think so. You also never answered the question:It depends where I spin. In a lot of places, it means
what happens to you when you spin out.
hitting a
in a >>> regime where a spin is imminent...
But you've never acknowledged that pilots actively avoid
flying
they want >>> to win).
...where racing drivers operate in that regime every lap
(if
up. >>> So?
:-)
The NTSB provides photographs of the aftermath of such
accidents - go look them
It depends.You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what happens
to you when you spin out?
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that might
lead to a spin in the first place!
I spin airplanes on purpose. It's pretty fun if you know the
recovery.
a novice. Hardly the same as accidentally spinning out on a track.
IOW apples and oranges.
If you do it too close to the ground you WILL die. Like this guy,https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=stall+spin+on+final&docid=608017045606266097&mid=06CD0937FA0FDA4815C406CD0937FA0FDA4815C4&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
too steep, to slow:
https://www.flyingmag.com/fatal-accident-stops-stol-competition-in-nebraska/
Or this one just a few days ago:
The two bear no relation. A relatively small mistake can end in
If you spin a car into a race track wall your survival odds are a
lot
better than an aircraft spin into the ground.
the former. It takes a fairly massive error the end in the later.
I don't see why anyone who had a clue what they are talking about
would be directly comparing the two.
-- Bozo bin Amos P (transgender nymshifter) Jerry C. (same
attention seeking nymshifter) Michael P. (transgender nymshifter)
Felicity (transgender nymshifter) George R (transgender
nymshifter) Irving S (transgender nymshifter) Enjoy!
Alan, you just demonstrated your ignorance again! Both accidents were caused by pilots flying so slow that the aircraft stalled and spun. There was insufficient altitude for recovery. The aircraft went inLiarboy, you're not answering me.
more or less vertically at high speed, killing the pilots. in both
case a few knots more airspeed and no spins would have happened. This can be insidious. I know, I have had an unintentional aircraft spin.
I'm sure you have had the same in a race car.
And yes: I have had quite a few spins in a race car. That's because that is the regime where one has to drive a racing car if you want to be fast.
One of your accidents makes my point for me.
'
The MayDay STOL competition in Wayne, Nebraska, came to an abrupt and tragic halt on Friday evening with the loss of pilot Tom Dafoe, who was piloting a 1946 Cessna 140.
Dafoe was flying in the fourth heat of a traditional STOL pickup match when the Cessna entered a stall-spin around 300 feet agl, from straight-and-level flight with airspeed low, according to eyewitnesses
on the scene at Wayne Municipal-Stan Morris Field. The subsequent impact took Dafoe’s life.'
Dafoe was doing something similar to what I do: taking risks in order to win a competition.
The other? Well, read for yourself:
'Although the pilot had received 1.0 hours of flight training in the accident airplane in the 30 days before the accident, he only performed
2 solo takeoffs and landings. This training did not include training on stall characteristics, which the Federal Aviation Administration recommends. If the pilot had received stall training in the airplane, he would likely have been aware of the appropriate airspeeds and pitch attitudes to use while maneuvering after takeoff, and this may have prevented the accident. '
He didn't die because aviating is inherently risky:
he died because he was IGNORANT.Defoe was a highly experienced pilot and knew his airplane. The point is that a spin at low altitude in an airplane is basically not survivable. Race car spins are highly survivable. As for sailplanes most of the flight is spent at altitudes where spin
However, even highly experienced pilots have spun in from altitudes where recovery should have been possible. A couple of examples:20killed.
https://generalaviationnews.com/2019/02/13/spin-training-flight-ends-in-fatal-accident/
https://www.wrtv.com/news/public-safety/ntsb-report-witness-saw-plane-in-nose-down-left-spin-before-deadly-crash-in-montgomery-county#:~:text=The%20crash%20happened%20June%206%20in%20a%20field,Kristen%20Green%2C%2028%2C%20of%20Swisher%2C%20Iowa%20were%
That last one was not very far from here.
On 2022-05-26 7:00 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:55:52 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-25 7:52 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:51:58 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:It depends.
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 7:47:38 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-23 7:39 p.m., TomS wrote:You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:06:45 PM UTC-7, AlanI don't need to move "hundreds of feet" to be in trouble from
wrote:
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, AlanSunshine...
wrote:
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7, AlanPlease.
wrote:
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PM UTC-4,Believe me, I understand that, too!
Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM
UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second event
as a professional driving coach with a
company offering short (mostly 3 lap)
"race experiences" to people with no
previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern Mustang
(manual gearbox), and a Nissan 370Z, each
set up with an auxiliary brake pedal and
engine kill switch for the passenger
seat, full racing seats and harnesses
with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave 22
people huge thrills and some insight into
what it's like to drive a car at speed.
The day started under wet conditions, but
got a lot better later on until we
finished up on a completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became less
timid with instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one
really struggled to stay within the
limits of grip (in the worst car for
driving in the wet; the Camaro's throttle
pedal is not very progressive), and
there were only a couple who I need to
prevent from spinning with the aux brake.
Almost everyone needed some demonstration
of just how hard a car will really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with customers
with about 10 laps as driver. One very
nice lady, a survivor of cancer, who had
paid for rides in two of the cars (I
think she went out in the Mustang after
her first go with me in the Camaro) asked
if she ride as a passenger with me for
two more laps to really see what the car
could do. I think I gave her a sense for
it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps on
my own, warming up the car and also
recording some video for tutorial video
for the company to offer for those coming
to the next event to actually see what
they're supposed to be seeing when they
actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a
Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” <g>
Maybe next time they’ll have a 911
…preferably an old one so that you can have
fun invoking lift throttle oversteer to
hang the back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting
power-on oversteer out of the Camaro...
...especially when the track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer,
that the old “engine way in back” early 911’s >>>>>>>>>>>> were notorious for. Classical instance was too
late corner deceleration getting off the
throttle in the corner & the back end comes out
as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than most
vehicles, but usually racing cars are closer to
the edge of that than most road vehicles.
Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the
oversteer rotation and power-push the nose back
to where you want it to be. Otherwise, you end
up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK, one
thing... ...but you tend to do all the fancy
manoeuvring well away from the ground).
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you
fucking retard!!
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything you can
hit in comparison to where you place a racing car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already doing
60mph, and I'm usually within two feet of the wall.
On the front straight, that speed is around 90mph, so I
typically leave 3-4 feet.
You keep your little glider literally 100s if not 1,000s
of feet from the nearest obstacle while flying...
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic lift
when you're doing it.
You keep on demonstrating your TOTAL IGNORANCE of flying
and the hazards involved. Are you subject to falling
hundreds of feet by a sudden wind gust?
a wind gust. Less than 6 feet could result in me hitting a
wall.
Whereas "hundreds of feet" in a glider means...
...stil being in the air.
I don't think so. You also never answered the question:It depends where I spin. In a lot of places, it means hitting
what happens to you when you spin out.
a wall at high speed.
But you've never acknowledged that pilots actively avoid
flying in a regime where a spin is imminent...
...where racing drivers operate in that regime every lap (if
they want to win).
:-)
The NTSB provides photographs of the aftermath of suchSo?
accidents - go look them up.
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what happens to
you when you spin out?
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that might lead
to a spin in the first place!
Actually, we fly A LOT (20 to 40 percent of total flight time) in aBullshit.
flight regime that borders on a classic spin entry: flying just above
the edge of stall in a steep banked (45 degrees) turn.
Show me one reference that says you do that and why.
How many of your friends and acquaintances have been killed whileHappily, none.
racing cars?
On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 2:02:23 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Or this one just a few days ago:
On 2022-05-27 7:56 a.m., Tom Elam wrote:
On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 2:27:12 PM UTC-4, Bigbird wrote:
Tom Elam wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 10:55:52 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:A stall turn is a standard acrobatic manoeuvre that I was
On 2022-05-25 7:52 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:51:58 PM UTC-7, TomSvehicles, >>>>>>>>> but usually racing cars are closer to
wrote:
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 7:47:38 PM UTC-7, Alan
wrote:
On 2022-05-23 7:39 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:06:45 PM UTC-7,
Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7,
Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM
UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PMBelieve me, I understand that, too!
UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42
AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my
second event as a professional
driving coach with a company
offering short (mostly 3 lap)
"race experiences" to people with
no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern
Mustang (manual gearbox), and a
Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine
kill switch for the passenger
seat, full racing seats and
harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I
gave 22 people huge thrills and
some insight into what it's like
to drive a car at speed. The day
started under wet conditions, but
got a lot better later on until
we finished up on a completely
dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few
became less timid with
instruction.
A few were less timid, but only
one really struggled to stay
within the limits of grip (in the
worst car for driving in the wet;
the Camaro's throttle pedal is
not very progressive), and there
were only a couple who I need to
prevent from spinning with the
aux brake. Almost everyone needed
some demonstration of just how
hard a car will really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with
customers with about 10 laps as
driver. One very nice lady, a
survivor of cancer, who had paid
for rides in two of the cars (I
think she went out in the Mustang
after her first go with me in the
Camaro) asked if she ride as a
passenger with me for two more
laps to really see what the car
could do. I think I gave her a
sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15
laps on my own, warming up the
car and also recording some video
for tutorial video for the
company to offer for those coming
to the next event to actually see
what they're supposed to be
seeing when they actually get out
there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend
a Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the
office” <g> Maybe next time they’ll
have a 911 …preferably an old one
so that you can have fun invoking
lift throttle oversteer to hang the
back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem
getting power-on oversteer out of the
Camaro... ...especially when the
track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle
oversteer, that the old “engine way in
back” early 911’s were notorious for.
Classical instance was too late corner
deceleration getting off the throttle
in the corner & the back end comes out
as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse
than most
the edge of that than >>>>>>>>> most road vehicles.
thing... >>>>>>> ...but you tend to do all the fancyPlease.Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop
the oversteer rotation and power-push
the nose back to where you want it to
be. Otherwise, you end up going
backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three
dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions
(OK, one
manoeuvring well away from >>>>>>> the ground).
and >>>>> I'm usually within two feet of the wall.Sunshine...
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS,
you fucking retard!!
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything
you can hit in comparison to where you place a
racing car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already
doing 60mph,
typically >>>>> leave 3-4 feet.
On the front straight, that speed is around
90mph, so I
feet >>>>> from the nearest obstacle while flying...
You keep your little glider literally 100s if
not 1,000s of
you're >>>>> doing it.
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic
lift when
the >>>> hazards involved. Are you subject to falling
You keep on demonstrating your TOTAL IGNORANCE of
flying and
hundreds of feet by a >>>> sudden wind gust?
wind >>> gust. Less than 6 feet could result in me hittingI don't need to move "hundreds of feet" to be in
trouble from a
a wall.
wall at >>> high speed.
Whereas "hundreds of feet" in a glider means...
...stil being in the air.
I don't think so. You also never answered theIt depends where I spin. In a lot of places, it
question: what happens to you when you spin out.
means hitting a
in a >>> regime where a spin is imminent...
But you've never acknowledged that pilots actively
avoid flying
they want >>> to win).
...where racing drivers operate in that regime every
lap (if
up. >>> So?
:-)
The NTSB provides photographs of the aftermath of
such accidents - go look them
It depends.You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what
happens to you when you spin out?
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious
injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that
might lead to a spin in the first place!
I spin airplanes on purpose. It's pretty fun if you know the
recovery.
taught as a novice. Hardly the same as accidentally spinning
out on a track.
IOW apples and oranges.
If you do it too close to the ground you WILL die. Like thishttps://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=stall+spin+on+final&docid=608017045606266097&mid=06CD0937FA0FDA4815C406CD0937FA0FDA4815C4&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
guy, too steep, to slow:
If you spin a car into a race track wall your survival odds are ahttps://www.flyingmag.com/fatal-accident-stops-stol-competition-in-nebraska/
Liarboy, you're not answering me.lot better than an aircraft spin into the ground.The two bear no relation. A relatively small mistake can end
in the former. It takes a fairly massive error the end in the
later.
I don't see why anyone who had a clue what they are talking
about would be directly comparing the two.
-- Bozo bin Amos P (transgender nymshifter) Jerry C. (same
attention seeking nymshifter) Michael P. (transgender
nymshifter) Felicity (transgender nymshifter) George R
(transgender nymshifter) Irving S (transgender nymshifter)
Enjoy!
Alan, you just demonstrated your ignorance again! Both accidents
were caused by pilots flying so slow that the aircraft stalled
and spun. There was insufficient altitude for recovery. The
aircraft went in more or less vertically at high speed, killing
the pilots. in both case a few knots more airspeed and no spins
would have happened. This can be insidious. I know, I have had an
unintentional aircraft spin. I'm sure you have had the same in a
race car.
And yes: I have had quite a few spins in a race car. That's because
that is the regime where one has to drive a racing car if you want
to be fast.
One of your accidents makes my point for me.
' The MayDay STOL competition in Wayne, Nebraska, came to an abrupt
and tragic halt on Friday evening with the loss of pilot Tom Dafoe,
who was piloting a 1946 Cessna 140.
Dafoe was flying in the fourth heat of a traditional STOL pickup
match when the Cessna entered a stall-spin around 300 feet agl,
from straight-and-level flight with airspeed low, according to
eyewitnesses on the scene at Wayne Municipal-Stan Morris Field. The
subsequent impact took Dafoe’s life.'
Dafoe was doing something similar to what I do: taking risks in
order to win a competition.
The other? Well, read for yourself:
'Although the pilot had received 1.0 hours of flight training in
the accident airplane in the 30 days before the accident, he only
performed 2 solo takeoffs and landings. This training did not
include training on stall characteristics, which the Federal
Aviation Administration recommends. If the pilot had received stall
training in the airplane, he would likely have been aware of the
appropriate airspeeds and pitch attitudes to use while maneuvering
after takeoff, and this may have prevented the accident. '
He didn't die because aviating is inherently risky:
he died because he was IGNORANT.
Defoe was a highly experienced pilot and knew his airplane.
The point
is that a spin at low altitude in an airplane is basically not
survivable.
Race car spins are highly survivable.
As for sailplanes
most of the flight is spent at altitudes where spin recovery is
possible. But, soaring airspeeds are much closer to stall, typically
1.3-1.4 x Vs1, than powered small aircraft at cruise, typically 2-3 x
Vs1.
I have experienced a unintentional spin at about 2x Vs1. It was
at about 3,000 AGL. Startling, but not fatal due to spin recovery
training.
However, even highly experienced pilots have spun in from altitudes
where recovery should have been possible. A couple of examples:
https://generalaviationnews.com/2019/02/13/spin-training-flight-ends-in-fatal-accident/
https://www.wrtv.com/news/public-safety/ntsb-report-witness-saw-plane-in-nose-down-left-spin-before-deadly-crash-in-montgomery-county#:~:text=The%20crash%20happened%20June%206%20in%20a%20field,Kristen%20Green%2C%2028%2C%20of%20Swisher%2C%20Iowa%20were%20killed.
That last one was not very far from here.
On 2022-05-29 4:41 a.m., Tom Elam wrote:
On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 2:02:23 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:Or this one just a few days ago:
On 2022-05-27 7:56 a.m., Tom Elam wrote:
On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 2:27:12 PM UTC-4, Bigbird wrote:
Tom Elam wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 10:55:52 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:A stall turn is a standard acrobatic manoeuvre that I was
On 2022-05-25 7:52 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:51:58 PM UTC-7, TomSvehicles, >>>>>>>>> but usually racing cars are closer to
wrote:
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 7:47:38 PM UTC-7, Alan
wrote:
On 2022-05-23 7:39 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:06:45 PM UTC-7,
Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7,
Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM
UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PMBelieve me, I understand that, too!
UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42
AM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my
second event as a professional
driving coach with a company
offering short (mostly 3 lap)
"race experiences" to people with
no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern
Mustang (manual gearbox), and a
Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine
kill switch for the passenger
seat, full racing seats and
harnesses with roll bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I
gave 22 people huge thrills and
some insight into what it's like
to drive a car at speed. The day
started under wet conditions, but
got a lot better later on until
we finished up on a completely
dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few
became less timid with
instruction.
A few were less timid, but only
one really struggled to stay
within the limits of grip (in the
worst car for driving in the wet;
the Camaro's throttle pedal is
not very progressive), and there
were only a couple who I need to
prevent from spinning with the
aux brake. Almost everyone needed
some demonstration of just how
hard a car will really stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with
customers with about 10 laps as
driver. One very nice lady, a
survivor of cancer, who had paid
for rides in two of the cars (I
think she went out in the Mustang
after her first go with me in the
Camaro) asked if she ride as a
passenger with me for two more
laps to really see what the car
could do. I think I gave her a
sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15
laps on my own, warming up the
car and also recording some video
for tutorial video for the
company to offer for those coming
to the next event to actually see
what they're supposed to be
seeing when they actually get out
there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend
a Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the
office” <g> Maybe next time they’ll >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have a 911 …preferably an old one
so that you can have fun invoking
lift throttle oversteer to hang the
back end waaaay out.
Believe me: there was no problem
getting power-on oversteer out of the
Camaro... ...especially when the
track was still wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle
oversteer, that the old “engine way in
back” early 911’s were notorious for.
Classical instance was too late corner
deceleration getting off the throttle
in the corner & the back end comes out
as you’re slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse
than most
the edge of that than >>>>>>>>> most road vehicles.
thing... >>>>>>> ...but you tend to do all the fancyPlease.Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop
the oversteer rotation and power-push
the nose back to where you want it to
be. Otherwise, you end up going
backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three
dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions
(OK, one
manoeuvring well away from >>>>>>> the ground).
and >>>>> I'm usually within two feet of the wall.Sunshine...
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS,
you fucking retard!!
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything
you can hit in comparison to where you place a
racing car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already
doing 60mph,
typically >>>>> leave 3-4 feet.
On the front straight, that speed is around
90mph, so I
feet >>>>> from the nearest obstacle while flying...
You keep your little glider literally 100s if
not 1,000s of
you're >>>>> doing it.
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic
lift when
the >>>> hazards involved. Are you subject to falling
You keep on demonstrating your TOTAL IGNORANCE of
flying and
hundreds of feet by a >>>> sudden wind gust?
wind >>> gust. Less than 6 feet could result in me hittingI don't need to move "hundreds of feet" to be in
trouble from a
a wall.
wall at >>> high speed.
Whereas "hundreds of feet" in a glider means...
...stil being in the air.
I don't think so. You also never answered theIt depends where I spin. In a lot of places, it
question: what happens to you when you spin out.
means hitting a
in a >>> regime where a spin is imminent...
But you've never acknowledged that pilots actively
avoid flying
they want >>> to win).
...where racing drivers operate in that regime every
lap (if
up. >>> So?
:-)
The NTSB provides photographs of the aftermath of
such accidents - go look them
It depends.You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what
happens to you when you spin out?
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious
injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that
might lead to a spin in the first place!
I spin airplanes on purpose. It's pretty fun if you know the
recovery.
taught as a novice. Hardly the same as accidentally spinning
out on a track.
IOW apples and oranges.
If you do it too close to the ground you WILL die. Like thishttps://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=stall+spin+on+final&docid=608017045606266097&mid=06CD0937FA0FDA4815C406CD0937FA0FDA4815C4&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
guy, too steep, to slow:
If you spin a car into a race track wall your survival odds are ahttps://www.flyingmag.com/fatal-accident-stops-stol-competition-in-nebraska/
This is where I was talking about Defoe.Liarboy, you're not answering me.lot better than an aircraft spin into the ground.The two bear no relation. A relatively small mistake can end
in the former. It takes a fairly massive error the end in the
later.
I don't see why anyone who had a clue what they are talking
about would be directly comparing the two.
-- Bozo bin Amos P (transgender nymshifter) Jerry C. (same
attention seeking nymshifter) Michael P. (transgender
nymshifter) Felicity (transgender nymshifter) George R
(transgender nymshifter) Irving S (transgender nymshifter)
Enjoy!
Alan, you just demonstrated your ignorance again! Both accidents
were caused by pilots flying so slow that the aircraft stalled
and spun. There was insufficient altitude for recovery. The
aircraft went in more or less vertically at high speed, killing
the pilots. in both case a few knots more airspeed and no spins
would have happened. This can be insidious. I know, I have had an
unintentional aircraft spin. I'm sure you have had the same in a
race car.
And yes: I have had quite a few spins in a race car. That's because
that is the regime where one has to drive a racing car if you want
to be fast.
One of your accidents makes my point for me.
' The MayDay STOL competition in Wayne, Nebraska, came to an abrupt
and tragic halt on Friday evening with the loss of pilot Tom Dafoe,
who was piloting a 1946 Cessna 140.
Dafoe was flying in the fourth heat of a traditional STOL pickup
match when the Cessna entered a stall-spin around 300 feet agl,
from straight-and-level flight with airspeed low, according to
eyewitnesses on the scene at Wayne Municipal-Stan Morris Field. The
subsequent impact took Dafoe’s life.'
Dafoe was doing something similar to what I do: taking risks in
order to win a competition.
The other? Well, read for yourself:
'Although the pilot had received 1.0 hours of flight training in
the accident airplane in the 30 days before the accident, he only
performed 2 solo takeoffs and landings. This training did not
include training on stall characteristics, which the Federal
Aviation Administration recommends. If the pilot had received stall
training in the airplane, he would likely have been aware of the
appropriate airspeeds and pitch attitudes to use while maneuvering
after takeoff, and this may have prevented the accident. '
He didn't die because aviating is inherently risky:
he died because he was IGNORANT.
Defoe was a highly experienced pilot and knew his airplane.And he's not the pilot I said was ignorant...
...or are you just not bright enough to notice that I addressed each incident separately?
The pointThe point in that case is that Defoe was engaged in a competition where flying at the extreme edge of control (stall in this case) is an
is that a spin at low altitude in an airplane is basically not
survivable.
essential element of success.
Just as racing drivers do.
It was not NORMAL flying where avoiding such extremes is the whole point.
Race car spins are highly survivable.Dude. The fact that they both happen to have the same name doesn't make
them comparable events.
As for sailplanesYes. That's true.
most of the flight is spent at altitudes where spin recovery is
possible. But, soaring airspeeds are much closer to stall, typically 1.3-1.4 x Vs1, than powered small aircraft at cruise, typically 2-3 x
Vs1.
But you're flying in a regime where you can pay essentially as much attention to your airspeed as you require. I showed you the numbers for Tom's Schleisher (sp?) and are you seriously claiming there actually
would be great difficulty for you to keep airspeed from falling by MORE
than 20%?
I have experienced a unintentional spin at about 2x Vs1. It wasDude... ...for comparison:
at about 3,000 AGL. Startling, but not fatal due to spin recovery training.
With your aircraft properly trimmed in straight and level flight, how
long do you feel you could safely remove your hands from the controls?
However, even highly experienced pilots have spun in from altitudes
where recovery should have been possible. A couple of examples:
https://generalaviationnews.com/2019/02/13/spin-training-flight-ends-in-fatal-accident/"spin TRAINING"
In short, the aircraft was deliberately departed from controlled flight.
20were%20killed.https://www.wrtv.com/news/public-safety/ntsb-report-witness-saw-plane-in-nose-down-left-spin-before-deadly-crash-in-montgomery-county#:~:text=The%20crash%20happened%20June%206%20in%20a%20field,Kristen%20Green%2C%2028%2C%20of%20Swisher%2C%20Iowa%
That last one was not very far from here.You seem to be deliberately avoiding the obvious.
Spins in aircraft can be very dangerous, yes...
...and that is why you fly in a manner to avoid them.
Spins in a racing car are probably less dangerous...
...but if you race to win, you drive in a manner that makes spinning a somewhat regular occurrence.
Last questions:
How many hours do you have in total?
How many unintentional spins have you had?
Be honest... ...if that's possible for you.
On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 2:57:07 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-29 4:41 a.m., Tom Elam wrote:
….
The point
is that a spin at low altitude in an airplane is basically not survivable.
The point in that case is that Defoe was engaged in a
competition where
flying at the extreme edge of control (stall in this case) is an
essential element of success.
Just as racing drivers do.
It was not NORMAL flying where avoiding such extremes is the whole point.…
You seem to be deliberately avoiding the obvious.
Spins in aircraft can be very dangerous, yes...
...and that is why you fly in a manner to avoid them.
Spins in a racing car are probably less dangerous...
...but if you race to win, you drive in a manner that makes spinning
a somewhat regular occurrence.
Last questions:
How many hours do you have in total?
How many unintentional spins have you had?
Be honest... ...if that's possible for you.
This all started out as you bragging about how proficient you are at driving a race car (and good for you), …
… and I pointed out that we do that, and more, in 3 dimensions.
You, being the person you are, felt compelled to denigrate that,
making it sound pretty damn easy.
Well, it isn't.
Furthermore, your races last a few minutes - my flights last many
hours, and there are hours more of preparation. It can be physically grueling, yet you have to be at the top of your game the entire time.
I tell my golfing buddies that if I have a bad golf game, I just come
back tomorrow and try again; but if I have a bad day flying I am dead.
I recommend that, in the future, you be a bit more humble about the activities of others.
On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 7:07:38 PM UTC-5, TomS wrote:
On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 2:57:07 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-29 4:41 a.m., Tom Elam wrote:
….
The point
is that a spin at low altitude in an airplane is basically not survivable.
The point in that case is that Defoe was engaged in a
competition where
flying at the extreme edge of control (stall in this case) is an essential element of success.
Just as racing drivers do.
It was not NORMAL flying where avoiding such extremes is the whole point.…
You seem to be deliberately avoiding the obvious.
Spins in aircraft can be very dangerous, yes...
...and that is why you fly in a manner to avoid them.
Spins in a racing car are probably less dangerous...
...but if you race to win, you drive in a manner that makes spinning
a somewhat regular occurrence.
Last questions:
How many hours do you have in total?
How many unintentional spins have you had?
Be honest... ...if that's possible for you.
This all started out as you bragging about how proficient you are at driving
a race car (and good for you), …
I read it as merely a report of a “nice day out”. Any of us could do the same,
on any variety of subjects. Case in point, I could relate a recent scuba dive
over fatally deep waters with sharks & stuff to make it an entertaining read.
… and I pointed out that we do that, and more, in 3 dimensions.
Nah, you were merely jealous and tried to compensate. Problem is that your ‘Fun’ has larger safety margins which undermined your brag attempt.
You, being the person you are, felt compelled to denigrate that,Except he was spot-on, which made you even more mad & jealous.
making it sound pretty damn easy.Projection attempt.
Well, it isn't.
Not at your age or health. Alan’s got a big advantage on you there.
Furthermore, your races last a few minutes - my flights last manyAlan already debunked that one when he asked how many seconds you
hours, and there are hours more of preparation. It can be physically grueling, yet you have to be at the top of your game the entire time.
could let go of the wheel. Similarly, your heart rate isn’t going to be 120+
for the duration either.
I tell my golfing buddies that if I have a bad golf game, I just comeWhich has happened to you how many times? /s
back tomorrow and try again; but if I have a bad day flying I am dead.
I recommend that, in the future, you be a bit more humble about the activities of others.You first, since you already have a bad habit of denigrating others.
-hh
On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 6:48:02 PM UTC-7, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 7:07:38 PM UTC-5, TomS wrote:
On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 2:57:07 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-29 4:41 a.m., Tom Elam wrote:
….
The point
is that a spin at low altitude in an airplane is basically not survivable.
The point in that case is that Defoe was engaged in a
competition where
flying at the extreme edge of control (stall in this case) is an essential element of success.
Just as racing drivers do.
It was not NORMAL flying where avoiding such extremes is the whole point.…
You seem to be deliberately avoiding the obvious.
Spins in aircraft can be very dangerous, yes...
...and that is why you fly in a manner to avoid them.
Spins in a racing car are probably less dangerous...
...but if you race to win, you drive in a manner that makes spinning
a somewhat regular occurrence.
Last questions:
How many hours do you have in total?
How many unintentional spins have you had?
Be honest... ...if that's possible for you.
This all started out as you bragging about how proficient you are at driving
a race car (and good for you), …
I read it as merely a report of a “nice day out”. Any of us could do the same,
on any variety of subjects. Case in point, I could relate a recent scuba dive
over fatally deep waters with sharks & stuff to make it an entertaining read.
… and I pointed out that we do that, and more, in 3 dimensions.
Nah, you were merely jealous and tried to compensate. Problem is that your ‘Fun’ has larger safety margins which undermined your brag attempt.
You, being the person you are, felt compelled to denigrate that,Except he was spot-on, which made you even more mad & jealous.
making it sound pretty damn easy.Projection attempt.
Well, it isn't.
Not at your age or health. Alan’s got a big advantage on you there.
Furthermore, your races last a few minutes - my flights last manyAlan already debunked that one when he asked how many seconds you
hours, and there are hours more of preparation. It can be physically grueling, yet you have to be at the top of your game the entire time.
could let go of the wheel. Similarly, your heart rate isn’t going to be 120+
for the duration either.
I tell my golfing buddies that if I have a bad golf game, I just come back tomorrow and try again; but if I have a bad day flying I am dead.Which has happened to you how many times? /s
HA HA HA HA! In fact, I have nearly killed myself several times,
…but you are too ignorant to understand the close calls, like launching with a disconnected elevator.
I recommend that, in the future, you be a bit more humble about the activities of others.
You first, since you already have a bad habit of denigrating others.
No, …
…the Fool is the one on this thread that is guilty of that. Myself and Thomas
have attempted to set you guys straight on your misconceptions. You are
just another enabler that promulgates the bad behavior.
The first article states:
"The airplane’s Pilot Operating Handbook specified that at least
1,000′ of altitude loss should be expected for a one-turn spin and
recovery and that a six-turn spin and recovery may require more than
twice that altitude loss because the airplane can develop a rapid
rate of rotation and a steep nose-down pitch attitude."
Now, the Fool thinks that we are safe because:
"You keep your little glider literally 100s if not 1,000s of feet from
the nearest obstacle while flying..."
HA HA HA HA! In fact, I have nearly killed myself several times, but
you are too ignorant to understand the close calls, like launching
with a disconnected elevator.
I recommend that, in the future, you be a bit more humble aboutYou first, since you already have a bad habit of denigrating
the activities of others.
others.
No, the Fool is the one on this thread that is guilty of that. Myself
and Thomas have attempted to set you guys straight on your
misconceptions.
You are just another enabler that promulgates the bad
behavior.
TomS wrote:
HA HA HA HA! In fact, I have nearly killed myself several times, but
you are too ignorant to understand the close calls, like launching
with a disconnected elevator.
Incompetent pre-flight check?
It's amusing that your brag is that you are so poor a pilot that you frequently find yourself in unnecessarily perilous situations.
I never/rarely found gliding perilous but then I was a young man with
all my faculties.
Navigating in very low cloud was tricky but then again I had a motor on
that occasion so not too perilous.
I recommend that, in the future, you be a bit more humble aboutYou first, since you already have a bad habit of denigrating
the activities of others.
others.
No, the Fool is the one on this thread that is guilty of that. MyselfThey look to be your misconceptions, old girl.
and Thomas have attempted to set you guys straight on your
misconceptions.
You are just another enabler that promulgates the badWe are all guilty of enabling you; I'll give you that, Boo Hoo.
behavior.
TomS wrote:
HA HA HA HA! In fact, I have nearly killed myself several times, but
you are too ignorant to understand the close calls, like launching
with a disconnected elevator.
Incompetent pre-flight check?
It's amusing that your brag is that you are so poor a pilot that you frequently find yourself in unnecessarily perilous situations.
I never/rarely found gliding perilous but then I was a young man with
all my faculties.
Navigating in very low cloud was tricky but then again I had a motor on
that occasion so not too perilous.
I recommend that, in the future, you be a bit more humble aboutYou first, since you already have a bad habit of denigrating
the activities of others.
others.
No, the Fool is the one on this thread that is guilty of that. Myself
and Thomas have attempted to set you guys straight on your
misconceptions.
They look to be your misconceptions, old girl.
You are just another enabler that promulgates the bad
behavior.
We are all guilty of enabling you; I'll give you that, Boo Hoo.
On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 6:48:02 PM UTC-7, -hh wrote:
On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 7:07:38 PM UTC-5, TomS wrote:
On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 2:57:07 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-29 4:41 a.m., Tom Elam wrote:…
…. The point is that a spin at low altitude in an airplane is
basically not survivable.
The point in that case is that Defoe was engaged in a
competition where flying at the extreme edge of control (stall
in this case) is an essential element of success.
Just as racing drivers do.
It was not NORMAL flying where avoiding such extremes is the
whole point.
You seem to be deliberately avoiding the obvious. Spins in
aircraft can be very dangerous, yes... ...and that is why you
fly in a manner to avoid them.
Spins in a racing car are probably less dangerous...
...but if you race to win, you drive in a manner that makes
spinning a somewhat regular occurrence.
Last questions:
How many hours do you have in total?
How many unintentional spins have you had?
Be honest... ...if that's possible for you.
This all started out as you bragging about how proficient you are
at driving a race car (and good for you), …
I read it as merely a report of a “nice day out”. Any of us could
do the same, on any variety of subjects. Case in point, I could
relate a recent scuba dive over fatally deep waters with sharks &
stuff to make it an entertaining read.
… and I pointed out that we do that, and more, in 3 dimensions.
Nah, you were merely jealous and tried to compensate. Problem is
that your ‘Fun’ has larger safety margins which undermined your
brag attempt.
You, being the person you are, felt compelled to denigrate that,Except he was spot-on, which made you even more mad & jealous.
making it sound pretty damn easy.Projection attempt.
Well, it isn't.
Not at your age or health. Alan’s got a big advantage on you
there.
Furthermore, your races last a few minutes - my flights lastAlan already debunked that one when he asked how many seconds you
many hours, and there are hours more of preparation. It can be
physically grueling, yet you have to be at the top of your game
the entire time.
could let go of the wheel. Similarly, your heart rate isn’t going
to be 120+ for the duration either.
I tell my golfing buddies that if I have a bad golf game, I justWhich has happened to you how many times? /s
come back tomorrow and try again; but if I have a bad day flying
I am dead.
HA HA HA HA! In fact, I have nearly killed myself several times, but
you are too ignorant to understand the close calls, like launching
with a disconnected elevator.
I recommend that, in the future, you be a bit more humble aboutYou first, since you already have a bad habit of denigrating
the activities of others.
others.
No, the Fool is the one on this thread that is guilty of that. Myself
and Thomas have attempted to set you guys straight on your
misconceptions. You are just another enabler that promulgates the bad behavior.
This all started out as you bragging about how proficient you are atThat last one was not very far from here.You seem to be deliberately avoiding the obvious.
Spins in aircraft can be very dangerous, yes...
...and that is why you fly in a manner to avoid them.
Spins in a racing car are probably less dangerous...
...but if you race to win, you drive in a manner that makes
spinning a somewhat regular occurrence.
Last questions:
How many hours do you have in total?
How many unintentional spins have you had?
Be honest... ...if that's possible for you.
driving a race car (and good for you),
and I pointed out that we do
that, and more, in 3 dimensions.
You, being the person you are, felt
compelled to denigrate that, making it sound pretty damn easy. Well,
it isn't. Furthermore, your races last a few minutes - my flights
last many hours, and there are hours more of preparation.
It can be
physically grueling, yet you have to be at the top of your game the
entire time.
I tell my golfing buddies that if I have a bad golf
game, I just come back tomorrow and try again; but if I have a bad
day flying I am dead. I recommend that, in the future, you be a bit
more humble about the activities of others.
On Sunday, May 29, 2022 at 4:41:56 AM UTC-7, thomas...@gmail.com wrote:spin recovery is possible. But, soaring airspeeds are much closer to stall, typically 1.3-1.4 x Vs1, than powered small aircraft at cruise, typically 2-3 x Vs1. I have experienced a unintentional spin at about 2x Vs1. It was at about 3,000 AGL. Startling,
On Friday, May 27, 2022 at 2:02:23 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-27 7:56 a.m., Tom Elam wrote:Defoe was a highly experienced pilot and knew his airplane. The point is that a spin at low altitude in an airplane is basically not survivable. Race car spins are highly survivable. As for sailplanes most of the flight is spent at altitudes where
On Thursday, May 26, 2022 at 2:27:12 PM UTC-4, Bigbird wrote:Liarboy, you're not answering me.
Tom Elam wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 10:55:52 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:A stall turn is a standard acrobatic manoeuvre that I was taught as
On 2022-05-25 7:52 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Wednesday, May 25, 2022 at 7:51:58 PM UTC-7, TomS wrote:vehicles, >>>>>>>>> but usually racing cars are closer to the
On Monday, May 23, 2022 at 7:47:38 PM UTC-7, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-23 7:39 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Saturday, May 21, 2022 at 10:06:45 PM UTC-7, Alan
wrote:
On 2022-05-21 9:16 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 9:39:31 PM UTC-7, Alan
wrote:
On 2022-05-20 8:46 p.m., TomS wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 7:17:43 PM UTC-7,
Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 7:05 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 6:56:27 PMBelieve me, I understand that, too!
UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-20 3:40 p.m., -hh wrote:
On Friday, May 20, 2022 at 11:11:42 AM
UTC-4, Alan wrote:
I spent yesterday doing my second
event as a professional driving coach
with a company offering short (mostly
3 lap) "race experiences" to people
with no previous track experience.
Three cars—modern Camaro, modern
Mustang (manual gearbox), and a
Nissan 370Z, each set up with an
auxiliary brake pedal and engine kill
switch for the passenger seat, full
racing seats and harnesses with roll
bar added.
Running in the Camaro all day, I gave
22 people huge thrills and some
insight into what it's like to drive
a car at speed. The day started under
wet conditions, but got a lot better
later on until we finished up on a
completely dry track.
A lot were timid, but a few became
less timid with instruction.
A few were less timid, but only one
really struggled to stay within the
limits of grip (in the worst car for
driving in the wet; the Camaro's
throttle pedal is not very
progressive), and there were only a
couple who I need to prevent from
spinning with the aux brake. Almost
everyone needed some demonstration of
just how hard a car will really
stop.
All in all, I did 75 laps with
customers with about 10 laps as
driver. One very nice lady, a
survivor of cancer, who had paid for
rides in two of the cars (I think she
went out in the Mustang after her
first go with me in the Camaro) asked
if she ride as a passenger with me
for two more laps to really see what
the car could do. I think I gave her
a sense for it.
And I also did probably about 15 laps
on my own, warming up the car and
also recording some video for
tutorial video for the company to
offer for those coming to the next
event to actually see what they're
supposed to be seeing when they
actually get out there.
All-in-all, a great way to spend a
Thursday in May.
:-)
Sounds like a good day “at the office” >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <g> Maybe next time they’ll have a 911 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> …preferably an old one so that you can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have fun invoking lift throttle
oversteer to hang the back end waaaay
out.
Believe me: there was no problem getting
power-on oversteer out of the Camaro...
...especially when the track was still
wet.
Oh, understood.
I was referring to LIFT throttle oversteer,
that the old “engine way in back” early
911’s were notorious for. Classical
instance was too late corner deceleration
getting off the throttle in the corner &
the back end comes out as you’re
slowing…big old pendulum.
Early Porsches definitely had it worse than
most
edge of that than >>>>>>>>> most road vehicles.
thing... >>>>>>> ...but you tend to do all the fancyPlease.Yup. I teach it.
Recovery is to step on the gas, to stop the
oversteer rotation and power-push the nose
back to where you want it to be. Otherwise,
you end up going backwards…
:-D
Next time, try doing this in three dimensions.
There's nothing to hit in three dimensions (OK,
one
manoeuvring well away from >>>>>>> the ground).
and >>>>> I'm usually within two feet of the wall.Sunshine...
Oh, REALLY? You haven't flown in the MOUNTAINS, you
fucking retard!!
...you stay a HUGE distance away from anything you
can hit in comparison to where you place a racing
car.
At the exit of turn two at Mission, I'm already doing
60mph,
typically >>>>> leave 3-4 feet.
On the front straight, that speed is around 90mph, so
I
feet >>>>> from the nearest obstacle while flying...
You keep your little glider literally 100s if not
1,000s of
you're >>>>> doing it.
...and you're not near the limit for aerodynamic lift
when
the >>>> hazards involved. Are you subject to falling hundreds
You keep on demonstrating your TOTAL IGNORANCE of
flying and
of feet by a >>>> sudden wind gust?
wind >>> gust. Less than 6 feet could result in me hitting aI don't need to move "hundreds of feet" to be in trouble
from a
wall.
wall at >>> high speed.
Whereas "hundreds of feet" in a glider means...
...stil being in the air.
I don't think so. You also never answered the question:It depends where I spin. In a lot of places, it means
what happens to you when you spin out.
hitting a
in a >>> regime where a spin is imminent...
But you've never acknowledged that pilots actively avoid
flying
they want >>> to win).
...where racing drivers operate in that regime every lap
(if
up. >>> So?
:-)
The NTSB provides photographs of the aftermath of such
accidents - go look them
It depends.You just keep on demonstrating ignorance, Fool.
Also, you STILL haven't answered the question: what happens
to you when you spin out?
Sometimes nothing.
Sometimes, you hit a wall and risk death or serious injury.
What happens when you spin out?
Oh, right!
You actively avoid operating in the flight regime that might
lead to a spin in the first place!
I spin airplanes on purpose. It's pretty fun if you know the
recovery.
a novice. Hardly the same as accidentally spinning out on a track.
IOW apples and oranges.
If you do it too close to the ground you WILL die. Like this guy,https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=stall+spin+on+final&docid=608017045606266097&mid=06CD0937FA0FDA4815C406CD0937FA0FDA4815C4&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
too steep, to slow:
https://www.flyingmag.com/fatal-accident-stops-stol-competition-in-nebraska/
Or this one just a few days ago:
The two bear no relation. A relatively small mistake can end in
If you spin a car into a race track wall your survival odds are a
lot
better than an aircraft spin into the ground.
the former. It takes a fairly massive error the end in the later.
I don't see why anyone who had a clue what they are talking about
would be directly comparing the two.
-- Bozo bin Amos P (transgender nymshifter) Jerry C. (same
attention seeking nymshifter) Michael P. (transgender nymshifter)
Felicity (transgender nymshifter) George R (transgender
nymshifter) Irving S (transgender nymshifter) Enjoy!
Alan, you just demonstrated your ignorance again! Both accidents were
caused by pilots flying so slow that the aircraft stalled and spun.
There was insufficient altitude for recovery. The aircraft went in
more or less vertically at high speed, killing the pilots. in both
case a few knots more airspeed and no spins would have happened. This
can be insidious. I know, I have had an unintentional aircraft spin.
I'm sure you have had the same in a race car.
And yes: I have had quite a few spins in a race car. That's because that >>> is the regime where one has to drive a racing car if you want to be fast. >>>
One of your accidents makes my point for me.
'
The MayDay STOL competition in Wayne, Nebraska, came to an abrupt and
tragic halt on Friday evening with the loss of pilot Tom Dafoe, who was
piloting a 1946 Cessna 140.
Dafoe was flying in the fourth heat of a traditional STOL pickup match
when the Cessna entered a stall-spin around 300 feet agl, from
straight-and-level flight with airspeed low, according to eyewitnesses
on the scene at Wayne Municipal-Stan Morris Field. The subsequent impact >>> took Dafoe’s life.'
Dafoe was doing something similar to what I do: taking risks in order to >>> win a competition.
The other? Well, read for yourself:
'Although the pilot had received 1.0 hours of flight training in the
accident airplane in the 30 days before the accident, he only performed
2 solo takeoffs and landings. This training did not include training on
stall characteristics, which the Federal Aviation Administration
recommends. If the pilot had received stall training in the airplane, he >>> would likely have been aware of the appropriate airspeeds and pitch
attitudes to use while maneuvering after takeoff, and this may have
prevented the accident. '
He didn't die because aviating is inherently risky:
he died because he was IGNORANT.
20killed.
However, even highly experienced pilots have spun in from altitudes where recovery should have been possible. A couple of examples:
https://generalaviationnews.com/2019/02/13/spin-training-flight-ends-in-fatal-accident/
https://www.wrtv.com/news/public-safety/ntsb-report-witness-saw-plane-in-nose-down-left-spin-before-deadly-crash-in-montgomery-county#:~:text=The%20crash%20happened%20June%206%20in%20a%20field,Kristen%20Green%2C%2028%2C%20of%20Swisher%2C%20Iowa%20were%
can develop a rapid rate of rotation and a steep nose-down pitch attitude."
That last one was not very far from here.
The first article states:
"The airplane’s Pilot Operating Handbook specified that at least 1,000′ of altitude loss should be expected for a one-turn spin and recovery and that a six-turn spin and recovery may require more than twice that altitude loss because the airplane
Now, the Fool thinks that we are safe because:
"You keep your little glider literally 100s if not 1,000s of feet from
the nearest obstacle while flying..."
On 2022-05-30 7:38 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
TomS wrote:
HA HA HA HA! In fact, I have nearly killed myself several times, but
you are too ignorant to understand the close calls, like launching
with a disconnected elevator.
Incompetent pre-flight check?
It's amusing that your brag is that you are so poor a pilot that you frequently find yourself in unnecessarily perilous situations.
I never/rarely found gliding perilous but then I was a young man with
all my faculties.
Navigating in very low cloud was tricky but then again I had a motor on that occasion so not too perilous.
I recommend that, in the future, you be a bit more humble aboutYou first, since you already have a bad habit of denigrating
the activities of others.
others.
No, the Fool is the one on this thread that is guilty of that. Myself
and Thomas have attempted to set you guys straight on your
misconceptions.
They look to be your misconceptions, old girl.
You are just another enabler that promulgates the bad
behavior.
We are all guilty of enabling you; I'll give you that, Boo Hoo.The answer is found in this simple comparison:
In a properly trimmed aircraft, you can take your hands of the control
for quite a long stretch of time. You might choose not to...
...but you could.
At the track, I can take both hands off the wheel for at most about 7 seconds (from the point where I complete turn 9 and drive straight up
the main straight until I begin braking for turn 1).
And that's assuming that there are no other cars in close proximity...
...which happens very rarely on a busy track.
I'm often driving quite literally within two or three feet of the car
either in front or (hopefully) behind.
:-)
On 2022-05-30 7:38 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
TomS wrote:
HA HA HA HA! In fact, I have nearly killed myself several times, but
you are too ignorant to understand the close calls, like launching
with a disconnected elevator.
Incompetent pre-flight check?
It's amusing that your brag is that you are so poor a pilot that you frequently find yourself in unnecessarily perilous situations.
I never/rarely found gliding perilous but then I was a young man with
all my faculties.
Navigating in very low cloud was tricky but then again I had a motor on that occasion so not too perilous.
I recommend that, in the future, you be a bit more humble aboutYou first, since you already have a bad habit of denigrating
the activities of others.
others.
No, the Fool is the one on this thread that is guilty of that. Myself
and Thomas have attempted to set you guys straight on your
misconceptions.
They look to be your misconceptions, old girl.
You are just another enabler that promulgates the bad
behavior.
We are all guilty of enabling you; I'll give you that, Boo Hoo.The answer is found in this simple comparison:
In a properly trimmed aircraft, you can take your hands of the control
for quite a long stretch of time. You might choose not to...
...but you could.
At the track, I can take both hands off the wheel for at most about 7
seconds (from the point where I complete turn 9 and drive straight up
the main straight until I begin braking for turn 1).
And that's assuming that there are no other cars in close proximity...
...which happens very rarely on a busy track.
I'm often driving quite literally within two or three feet of the car
either in front or (hopefully) behind.
:-)
On 2022-05-29 5:07 p.m., TomS wrote:
That's a lie.This all started out as you bragging about how proficient you are at driving a race car (and good for you),That last one was not very far from here.You seem to be deliberately avoiding the obvious.
Spins in aircraft can be very dangerous, yes...
...and that is why you fly in a manner to avoid them.
Spins in a racing car are probably less dangerous...
...but if you race to win, you drive in a manner that makes
spinning a somewhat regular occurrence.
Last questions:
How many hours do you have in total?
How many unintentional spins have you had?
Be honest... ...if that's possible for you.
and I pointed out that we doWith a huge amount more space between you and anything you can hit...
that, and more, in 3 dimensions.
...and trying to stay as far away from the limit as you can pretty much
all the time.
You, being the person you are, feltI didn't denigrate anything.
compelled to denigrate that, making it sound pretty damn easy. Well,
it isn't. Furthermore, your races last a few minutes - my flightsYou think there aren't hours of preparation for a race, Sunshine?
last many hours, and there are hours more of preparation.
It can beAnd driving a racing car can't be physically gruelling?
physically grueling, yet you have to be at the top of your game the
entire time.
I tell my golfing buddies that if I have a bad golfUmmmm...
game, I just come back tomorrow and try again; but if I have a bad
day flying I am dead. I recommend that, in the future, you be a bit
more humble about the activities of others.
...no.
In flying, just as in racing, there can be lots of "bad days" that don't
come close to killing you.
On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 4:32:18 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-30 7:38 a.m., Bigbird wrote:
TomS wrote:The answer is found in this simple comparison:
HA HA HA HA! In fact, I have nearly killed myself several
times, but you are too ignorant to understand the close calls,
like launching with a disconnected elevator.
Incompetent pre-flight check?
It's amusing that your brag is that you are so poor a pilot that
you frequently find yourself in unnecessarily perilous
situations.
I never/rarely found gliding perilous but then I was a young man
with all my faculties.
Navigating in very low cloud was tricky but then again I had a
motor on that occasion so not too perilous.
I recommend that, in the future, you be a bit more humbleYou first, since you already have a bad habit of denigrating
about the activities of others.
others.
No, the Fool is the one on this thread that is guilty of that.
Myself and Thomas have attempted to set you guys straight on
your misconceptions.
They look to be your misconceptions, old girl.
You are just another enabler that promulgates the bad
behavior.
We are all guilty of enabling you; I'll give you that, Boo Hoo.
In a properly trimmed aircraft, you can take your hands of the
control for quite a long stretch of time. You might choose not
to...
...but you could.
At the track, I can take both hands off the wheel for at most about
7 seconds (from the point where I complete turn 9 and drive
straight up the main straight until I begin braking for turn 1).
And that's assuming that there are no other cars in close
proximity...
...which happens very rarely on a busy track.
I'm often driving quite literally within two or three feet of the
car either in front or (hopefully) behind.
:-)
Which simply supports that many fatal aircraft accidents begin near
airports and near the ground. Car accidents in 2 dimensions also
frequently involve space to dissipate energy before coming to a stop
compared to 3 dimension aircraft accidents.
On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 4:21:19 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-29 5:07 p.m., TomS wrote:
That's a lie.This all started out as you bragging about how proficient you are at driving a race car (and good for you),That last one was not very far from here.You seem to be deliberately avoiding the obvious.
Spins in aircraft can be very dangerous, yes...
...and that is why you fly in a manner to avoid them.
Spins in a racing car are probably less dangerous...
...but if you race to win, you drive in a manner that makes
spinning a somewhat regular occurrence.
Last questions:
How many hours do you have in total?
How many unintentional spins have you had?
Be honest... ...if that's possible for you.
and I pointed out that we doWith a huge amount more space between you and anything you can hit...
that, and more, in 3 dimensions.
...and trying to stay as far away from the limit as you can pretty much all the time.
You, being the person you are, feltI didn't denigrate anything.
compelled to denigrate that, making it sound pretty damn easy. Well,
it isn't. Furthermore, your races last a few minutes - my flightsYou think there aren't hours of preparation for a race, Sunshine?
last many hours, and there are hours more of preparation.
It can beAnd driving a racing car can't be physically gruelling?
physically grueling, yet you have to be at the top of your game the entire time.
I tell my golfing buddies that if I have a bad golfUmmmm...
game, I just come back tomorrow and try again; but if I have a bad
day flying I am dead. I recommend that, in the future, you be a bit
more humble about the activities of others.
...no.
In flying, just as in racing, there can be lots of "bad days" that don't come close to killing you.Liarboy Alan, you have bragged about what a great race driver you are many times in a different newsgroup.
On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 4:21:19 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-29 5:07 p.m., TomS wrote:
That's a lie.This all started out as you bragging about how proficient you are atThat last one was not very far from here.You seem to be deliberately avoiding the obvious.
Spins in aircraft can be very dangerous, yes...
...and that is why you fly in a manner to avoid them.
Spins in a racing car are probably less dangerous...
...but if you race to win, you drive in a manner that makes
spinning a somewhat regular occurrence.
Last questions:
How many hours do you have in total?
How many unintentional spins have you had?
Be honest... ...if that's possible for you.
driving a race car (and good for you),
and I pointed out that we doWith a huge amount more space between you and anything you can hit...
that, and more, in 3 dimensions.
...and trying to stay as far away from the limit as you can pretty much
all the time.
You, being the person you are, feltI didn't denigrate anything.
compelled to denigrate that, making it sound pretty damn easy. Well,
it isn't. Furthermore, your races last a few minutes - my flightsYou think there aren't hours of preparation for a race, Sunshine?
last many hours, and there are hours more of preparation.
It can beAnd driving a racing car can't be physically gruelling?
physically grueling, yet you have to be at the top of your game the
entire time.
I tell my golfing buddies that if I have a bad golfUmmmm...
game, I just come back tomorrow and try again; but if I have a bad
day flying I am dead. I recommend that, in the future, you be a bit
more humble about the activities of others.
...no.
In flying, just as in racing, there can be lots of "bad days" that don't
come close to killing you.
Liarboy Alan, you have bragged about what a great race driver you are many times in a different newsgroup.
On 2022-05-31 12:44 p.m., Tom Elam wrote:
On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 4:21:19 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-29 5:07 p.m., TomS wrote:
That's a lie.This all started out as you bragging about how proficient you are atThat last one was not very far from here.You seem to be deliberately avoiding the obvious.
Spins in aircraft can be very dangerous, yes...
...and that is why you fly in a manner to avoid them.
Spins in a racing car are probably less dangerous...
...but if you race to win, you drive in a manner that makes
spinning a somewhat regular occurrence.
Last questions:
How many hours do you have in total?
How many unintentional spins have you had?
Be honest... ...if that's possible for you.
driving a race car (and good for you),
and I pointed out that we doWith a huge amount more space between you and anything you can hit...
that, and more, in 3 dimensions.
...and trying to stay as far away from the limit as you can pretty much
all the time.
You, being the person you are, feltI didn't denigrate anything.
compelled to denigrate that, making it sound pretty damn easy. Well,
it isn't. Furthermore, your races last a few minutes - my flightsYou think there aren't hours of preparation for a race, Sunshine?
last many hours, and there are hours more of preparation.
It can beAnd driving a racing car can't be physically gruelling?
physically grueling, yet you have to be at the top of your game the
entire time.
I tell my golfing buddies that if I have a bad golfUmmmm...
game, I just come back tomorrow and try again; but if I have a bad
day flying I am dead. I recommend that, in the future, you be a bit
more humble about the activities of others.
...no.
In flying, just as in racing, there can be lots of "bad days" that don't >> come close to killing you.
Liarboy Alan, you have bragged about what a great race driver you are many times in a different newsgroup.But I wasn't bragging in this thread, was I?
And frankly, you find and post my biggest brag.
I dare you, asshole.
On 2022-05-31 12:44 p.m., Tom Elam wrote:
On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 4:21:19 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-29 5:07 p.m., TomS wrote:
That's a lie.This all started out as you bragging about how proficient you are atThat last one was not very far from here.You seem to be deliberately avoiding the obvious.
Spins in aircraft can be very dangerous, yes...
...and that is why you fly in a manner to avoid them.
Spins in a racing car are probably less dangerous...
...but if you race to win, you drive in a manner that makes
spinning a somewhat regular occurrence.
Last questions:
How many hours do you have in total?
How many unintentional spins have you had?
Be honest... ...if that's possible for you.
driving a race car (and good for you),
and I pointed out that we doWith a huge amount more space between you and anything you can hit...
that, and more, in 3 dimensions.
...and trying to stay as far away from the limit as you can pretty much >> all the time.
You, being the person you are, feltI didn't denigrate anything.
compelled to denigrate that, making it sound pretty damn easy. Well,
it isn't. Furthermore, your races last a few minutes - my flightsYou think there aren't hours of preparation for a race, Sunshine?
last many hours, and there are hours more of preparation.
It can beAnd driving a racing car can't be physically gruelling?
physically grueling, yet you have to be at the top of your game the
entire time.
I tell my golfing buddies that if I have a bad golfUmmmm...
game, I just come back tomorrow and try again; but if I have a bad
day flying I am dead. I recommend that, in the future, you be a bit
more humble about the activities of others.
...no.
In flying, just as in racing, there can be lots of "bad days" that don't >> come close to killing you.
Liarboy Alan, you have bragged about what a great race driver you are many times in a different newsgroup.But I wasn't bragging in this thread, was I?
And frankly, you find and post my biggest brag.
I dare you, asshole.
On 2022-05-31 12:44 p.m., Tom Elam wrote:
On Monday, May 30, 2022 at 4:21:19 PM UTC-4, Alan wrote:
On 2022-05-29 5:07 p.m., TomS wrote:
That's a lie.This all started out as you bragging about how proficient you are atThat last one was not very far from here.You seem to be deliberately avoiding the obvious.
Spins in aircraft can be very dangerous, yes...
...and that is why you fly in a manner to avoid them.
Spins in a racing car are probably less dangerous...
...but if you race to win, you drive in a manner that makes
spinning a somewhat regular occurrence.
Last questions:
How many hours do you have in total?
How many unintentional spins have you had?
Be honest... ...if that's possible for you.
driving a race car (and good for you),
and I pointed out that we doWith a huge amount more space between you and anything you can hit...
that, and more, in 3 dimensions.
...and trying to stay as far away from the limit as you can pretty much
all the time.
You, being the person you are, feltI didn't denigrate anything.
compelled to denigrate that, making it sound pretty damn easy. Well,
it isn't. Furthermore, your races last a few minutes - my flightsYou think there aren't hours of preparation for a race, Sunshine?
last many hours, and there are hours more of preparation.
It can beAnd driving a racing car can't be physically gruelling?
physically grueling, yet you have to be at the top of your game the
entire time.
I tell my golfing buddies that if I have a bad golfUmmmm...
game, I just come back tomorrow and try again; but if I have a bad
day flying I am dead. I recommend that, in the future, you be a bit
more humble about the activities of others.
...no.
In flying, just as in racing, there can be lots of "bad days" that don't >> come close to killing you.
Liarboy Alan, you have bragged about what a great race driver you are many times in a different newsgroup.But I wasn't bragging in this thread, was I?
And frankly, you find and post my biggest brag.
I dare you, asshole.
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 300 |
| Nodes: | 16 (2 / 14) |
| Uptime: | 73:39:13 |
| Calls: | 6,714 |
| Calls today: | 2 |
| Files: | 12,246 |
| Messages: | 5,357,177 |