• Birth rates are a falling

    From =?UTF-8?Q?Pelle_Svansl=C3=B6s?=@21:1/5 to All on Wed Mar 27 23:17:32 2024
    Twenty years ago, Finland appeared to have it all. The birth rate was
    rising and the proportion of women in the labour force was high.

    Policymakers from around the world, including the UK and east Asia, came
    to learn about the Nordic model behind it: world class maternity care;
    generous parental leave; a right to pre-school childcare.

    But maybe they got it wrong. Despite all the support offered to parents, Finland’s fertility rate has fallen nearly a third since 2010. It is now below the UK’s, where the social safety net is more limited, and only slightly above Italy’s, where traditional gender roles persevere.

    This is a puzzle for Anna Rotkirch, research director at the Family
    Federation of Finland’s Population Research Institute. A sociologist and demographer, she is one of Europe’s experts on how young people view
    having children. In 2020 and 2021, she advised then Finnish prime
    minister Sanna Marin on reinvigorating the country’s birth rate.

    Across the world, fertility is declining in very different societies — conservative and liberal, big and small state, growing economies and
    stagnating ones. It seems that Finland might be a forerunner,
    unfortunately.”

    Europe’s policy challenge, she wrote recently, is “to prevent a
    [fertility] freefall as witnessed in many East Asian countries”. Yet
    policies that worked last century may not work today. Some are likely to
    cost huge sums without delivering the desired results.

    “The strange thing with fertility is nobody really knows what’s going
    on. The policy responses are untried because it’s a new situation. It’s
    not primarily driven by economics or family policies. It’s something cultural, psychological, biological, cognitive.”

    Her findings suggest that children do not fit into many millennials’
    life plans. Once it was a sacrifice not to have children; now starting a
    family means sacrificing independence. “In most societies, having
    children was a cornerstone of adulthood. Now it’s something you have if
    you already have everything else. It becomes the capstone.”

    This helps to explain why it is no longer Europeans with less education
    who want more children. Instead “those who are well-off in many ways — [who] have a partner, have support from their parents, are employed, are
    not lonely — want to have more children . . . This is quite a new thing
    in many countries, including England.”

    The phenomenon inverts the theory of “uncertainty reduction”, which held that people, particularly from poorer backgrounds, had children to shore
    up their lives. “[The idea was:] my career isn’t going well, my relationships are a bit here and there, but at least I have a child . . . You just don’t see that way of thinking any more. For millennials, uncertainty reduction is not to have children.”

    Rotkirch also suspects that the spread of social media is playing a
    role, not least by stoking political polarisation, loneliness and mental
    health issues, which reduce fertility.

    Stabilising birth rates may require not just top-down policies but a
    societal rethink. “What would society look like if we valued
    reproduction, and raising babies, not just your own, as much as
    [economic] production?”

    Until recently, fertility decline was driven by families having fewer
    children than their parents and grandparents. Now the key dynamic is childlessness. In Finland, three-quarters of the recent decline in
    fertility is attributable to people who have no children. “You see
    similar trends everywhere.”

    In the family barometer surveys, among Finns born in the late 1970s and
    1980s, fewer than one in twenty said at the age of 25 that they didn’t
    want to have children. Among those born in the late 1980s and early
    1990s, that proportion rose to nearly one in four.

    Nearly 40 per cent of Finnish men with low education are now childless
    at the age of 45 (and probably for life): a “huge” proportion. Most have
    no partners. Men are as likely as women to say they want children, but
    are more likely to be childless.

    But childlessness is also rising among those who are in a relationship.
    Many couples are waiting too long. “People call me a lot in Finland.
    [They say] ‘I’m 42, my partner has had three miscarriages and she says
    she will not continue. And I understand I will never be a father. I’m
    the only child of my parents, and there’s nobody left, and help me.’”

    Rotkirch is wary of an emphasis on fertility treatments. Women’s
    fertility drops in their late thirties and forties: society has to
    adapt. “If you do everything that typical ministers of finance tell you
    to do, you are 45 — you have a house and a doctorate and it’s too late.
    The idealised life course is really at odds with female reproductive biology.”

    Rotkirch suggests the focus now needs to be elsewhere. Many people who
    want to have kids are not having kids. “It’s so funny when you meet
    young people and they’re like, ‘I have so much to do, my schedule is so busy.’ They are really waiting for the time when they are not busy.

    Governments should also not tell young people to have babies for the
    sake of the economy. Instead, they should flip the message to reassure
    young people about the future: “The economy is there for you to have a baby.”

    In her 2021 policy guidelines for the Finnish government, Rotkirch wrote
    that the “goal should be to restore the birth rate to 1.6 in the short
    term and 1.8 in the longer term”. Instead the rate fell further — to
    1.27 in 2023. Now, “given how few of the currently childless intend to
    have children”, Finland could at best aim for a recovery to 1.4 by the
    end of the decade.

    Rotkirch is exasperated by those who think lower fertility rates should
    be welcome, given climate change. “Climate change has to be combated
    now, and if you look at fertility changes, they are long term.”
    Nor can immigration simply fill the gap. “There are many good reasons
    not to have kids, but importing Filipino workers, who leave their
    children behind, is seriously not the answer.

    “There are two things that politicians should not do. One is the very knee-jerk reaction: go back to some last-century policies.” This
    includes restrictions on contraception and abortion, as seen in Poland
    and Iran. “The other thing is just to close their eyes.”

    Rotkirch’s hope is that the downsides of very low fertility rates may
    become better understood. If there is one reason to think that rates
    might stabilise or rebound, it is that past trends have yo-yoed
    unpredictably. In one survey, 11 per cent of Finnish women said Russia’s invasion of Ukraine made them less likely to have children. Perhaps
    Europe could experience positive shocks in future.

    Rotkirch is hopeful that homeworking may encourage couples to have
    children: men are more likely to be around for childcare. Or perhaps as
    AI takes hold, people will have more interest in children — because they
    are no longer needed in the workforce or want to reaffirm their
    humanity. “That would be very nice.”

    Rotkirch is not scared by the future, but she doesn’t want to live in a society of old, lonely people. “I think it’s sad if our way of living is living alone on the screens, in the flats, not having sex, not having
    stable partnerships, not having children.”

    https://www.ft.com/content/500c0fb7-a04a-4f87-9b93-bf65045b9401

    Somebody did a ballpark estimation of the future of the Finnskie folk.
    With present reproduction rates and life expectancies, the once mighty
    nation of 5M will in a hunnred years be a people of 1.5M incels. That's
    how fast it goes.

    To Kalergi or not to Kalergi? That is the PerSu question.

    --
    "And off they went, from here to there,
    The bear, the bear, and the maiden fair"
    -- Traditional

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  • From *skriptis@21:1/5 to The Iceberg on Thu Mar 28 10:16:47 2024
    The Iceberg <iceberg.rules@gmail.com> Wrote in message:r
    On 27/03/2024 21:17, Pelle Svanslös wrote:> Twenty years ago, Finland appeared to have it all. The birth rate was > rising and the proportion of women in the labour force was high.> > Policymakers from around the world, including the UK and east Asia,
    came > to learn about the Nordic model behind it: world class maternity care; > generous parental leave; a right to pre-school childcare.> > But maybe they got it wrong. Despite all the support offered to parents, > Finland’s fertility rate has fallen
    nearly a third since 2010. It is now > below the UK’s, where the social safety net is more limited, and only > slightly above Italy’s, where traditional gender roles persevere.> > This is a puzzle for Anna Rotkirch, research director at the Family >
    Federation of Finland’s Population Research Institute. A sociologist and > demographer, she is one of Europe’s experts on how young people view > having children. In 2020 and 2021, she advised then Finnish prime > minister Sanna Marin on
    reinvigorating the country’s birth rate.> > Across the world, fertility is declining in very different societies — > conservative and liberal, big and small state, growing economies and > stagnating ones. It seems that Finland might be a forerunner, >
    unfortunately.”> > Europe’s policy challenge, she wrote recently, is “to prevent a > [fertility] freefall as witnessed in many East Asian countries”. Yet > policies that worked last century may not work today. Some are likely to > cost huge sums
    without delivering the desired results.> > “The strange thing with fertility is nobody really knows what’s going > on. The policy responses are untried because it’s a new situation. It’s > not primarily driven by economics or family policies. It
    s something > cultural, psychological, biological, cognitive.”> > Her findings suggest that children do not fit into many millennials’ > life plans. Once it was a sacrifice not to have children; now starting a > family means sacrificing independence.
    “In most societies, having > children was a cornerstone of adulthood. Now it’s something you have if > you already have everything else. It becomes the capstone.”> > This helps to explain why it is no longer Europeans with less education > who
    want more children. Instead “those who are well-off in many ways — > [who] have a partner, have support from their parents, are employed, are > not lonely — want to have more children . . . This is quite a new thing > in many countries,
    including England.”> > The phenomenon inverts the theory of “uncertainty reduction”, which held > that people, particularly from poorer backgrounds, had children to shore > up their lives. “[The idea was:] my career isn’t going well, my >
    relationships are a bit here and there, but at least I have a child . . >  . You just don’t see that way of thinking any more. For millennials, > uncertainty reduction is not to have children.”> > Rotkirch also suspects that the spread of
    social media is playing a > role, not least by stoking political polarisation, loneliness and mental > health issues, which reduce fertility.> > Stabilising birth rates may require not just top-down policies but a > societal rethink. “What would
    society look like if we valued > reproduction, and raising babies, not just your own, as much as > [economic] production?”> > Until recently, fertility decline was driven by families having fewer > children than their parents and grandparents. Now the
    key dynamic is > childlessness. In Finland, three-quarters of the recent decline in > fertility is attributable to people who have no children. “You see > similar trends everywhere.”> > In the family barometer surveys, among Finns born in the late
    1970s and > 1980s, fewer than one in twenty said at the age of 25 that they didn’t > want to have children. Among those born in the late 1980s and early > 1990s, that proportion rose to nearly one in four.> > Nearly 40 per cent of Finnish men with low
    education are now childless > at the age of 45 (and probably for life): a “huge” proportion. Most have > no partners. Men are as likely as women to say they want children, but > are more likely to be childless.> > But childlessness is also rising
    among those who are in a relationship. > Many couples are waiting too long. “People call me a lot in Finland. > [They say] ‘I’m 42, my partner has had three miscarriages and she says > she will not continue. And I understand I will never be a
    father. I’m > the only child of my parents, and there’s nobody left, and help me.’”> > Rotkirch is wary of an emphasis on fertility treatments. Women’s > fertility drops in their late thirties and forties: society has to > adapt. “If you do
    everything that typical ministers of finance tell you > to do, you are 45 — you have a house and a doctorate and it’s too late. > The idealised life course is really at odds with female reproductive > biology.”> > Rotkirch suggests the focus now
    needs to be elsewhere. Many people who > want to have kids are not having kids. “It’s so funny when you meet > young people and they’re like, ‘I have so much to do, my schedule is so > busy.’ They are really waiting for the time when they are
    not busy.> > Governments should also not tell young people to have babies for the > sake of the economy. Instead, they should flip the message to reassure > young people about the future: “The economy is there for you to have a > baby.”> > In her
    2021 policy guidelines for the Finnish government, Rotkirch wrote > that the “goal should be to restore the birth rate to 1.6 in the short > term and 1.8 in the longer term”. Instead the rate fell further — to > 1.27 in 2023. Now, “given how few
    of the currently childless intend to > have children”, Finland could at best aim for a recovery to 1.4 by the > end of the decade.> > Rotkirch is exasperated by those who think lower fertility rates should > be welcome, given climate change. “Climate
    change has to be combated > now, and if you look at fertility changes, they are long term.”> Nor can immigration simply fill the gap. “There are many good reasons > not to have kids, but importing Filipino workers, who leave their > children behind,
    is seriously not the answer.> > “There are two things that politicians should not do. One is the very > knee-jerk reaction: go back to some last-century policies.” This > includes restrictions on contraception and abortion, as seen in Poland > and
    Iran. “The other thing is just to close their eyes.”> > Rotkirch’s hope is that the downsides of very low fertility rates may > become better understood. If there is one reason to think that rates > might stabilise or rebound, it is that past
    trends have yo-yoed > unpredictably. In one survey, 11 per cent of Finnish women said Russia’s > invasion of Ukraine made them less likely to have children. Perhaps > Europe could experience positive shocks in future.> > Rotkirch is hopeful that
    homeworking may encourage couples to have > children: men are more likely to be around for childcare. Or perhaps as > AI takes hold, people will have more interest in children — because they > are no longer needed in the workforce or want to reaffirm
    their > humanity. “That would be very nice.”> > Rotkirch is not scared by the future, but she doesn’t want to live in a > society of old, lonely people. “I think it’s sad if our way of living is > living alone on the screens, in the flats, not
    having sex, not having > stable partnerships, not having children.”> > https://www.ft.com/content/500c0fb7-a04a-4f87-9b93-bf65045b9401> > Somebody did a ballpark estimation of the future of the Finnskie folk. > With present reproduction rates and life
    expectancies, the once mighty > nation of 5M will in a hunnred years be a people of 1.5M incels. That's > how fast it goes.> > To Kalergi or not to Kalergi? That is the PerSu question.so what if the birth rates are falling, why not just scale back
    resources? it'll be far better for everyone and it obvious they'll just even out over time. All you're doing with Kalergi is moving people from one place to another, you're not fixing any problems at all, in fact you're wrecking 2 nations by doing that
    by stealing resources from poor countries instead of helping them.



    True.


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  • From Kalevi Kolttonen@21:1/5 to pelle@svans.los on Thu Mar 28 17:04:05 2024
    Pelle Svanslös <pelle@svans.los> wrote:
    To Kalergi or not to Kalergi? That is the PerSu question.

    I have no idea what that means, but I never ever
    wanted to have children. I am now 50 and will be
    childless forever. Fuck the Finnish government
    and politicians, I do not give a shit about what
    they say or recommend. Hah hah!

    I do not want to take care of kids or pay for their
    expenses. I only want to live with my wife and enjoy
    my daily life. Children will never be part of it and
    I am 100% happy about this.

    But we will buy two cute bunny rabbits pretty soon.

    br,
    KK

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  • From Kalevi Kolttonen@21:1/5 to The Iceberg on Sun Mar 31 06:30:37 2024
    The Iceberg <iceberg.rules@gmail.com> wrote:
    seems you've fallen for every dumb leftist Marxist lie the media says,

    Not true.

    are you eating lots of "plant based" stuff now too,

    I like Beyond Burger, it is good. But I do not eat
    a lot of plant based stuff, no.

    which helps Bill Gates and co earn more $$$?

    Bill is among the good guys.

    You do know they encourage the 3rd world
    nations to have more kids and say that's a good thing.

    That's sick.

    One of the US Presidents had kids when he was 70,
    so you still got lots of time to

    The ex-president of Finland, Sauli Niinistö, just
    had his son when he was 69 years old!

    turn away from listening to the dumb lying media and
    you still enjoy the cute bunny rabbits too!

    The bunnies will be super cute. One huge Flemish
    giant and another Holland lop ear...

    br,
    KK

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