Whisper <whisper@ozemail.com.au> Wrote in message:r

If that's true, how can you explain your theory that Federer was past his peak at 27?I think you said because players are a little slower as they age they are therefore lesser tennis players? I always thought this idea of yours was batshit crazy and

made no sense. You can still be a better tennis player even if you are slower and weaker as you age. What you gain in experience and knowledge far exceeds what you lose in a bit of speed, thus making you a better *tennis* player. If this doesn't apply
to Roger then he must be lacking in a lot of champion qualities. We can't have a goat who's so deficient he can't improve his tennis after 27. You'd think in Roger's case he most definitely would have improved as he aged, given all the variety and
skill he's supposed to possess, which give him even more options to win points. I think the players who really do become lesser tennis players as they age are the 1 dimensional types who can't compete after their 1 big shot, eg serve, loses it's power.
Those types have nothing to fall back on. Roger is the exact opposite, he was rich in variety/options, even moreso than Djokovic.He also says Djokovic is the best ever and that can no longer be debated, but he said we can still debate who are our
favorite players : )https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC8xa_EJ7Sk



Not sure I'm following?

Muratoglu highlights Djokovic's two top seasons in terms of important titles won (3 slams and YEC) and those are 2015 and 2023.

He says it's crazy that they're nearly 10 years apart and that today Novak is a better player than he was back then, and implying the tour constantly improves, the reason Djokovic has been so successful even at this age is that he hasn't dropped
physically.

He claims that was the key, no?




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*skriptis <skriptis@post.t-com.hr> Wrote in message:r

Whisper <whisper@ozemail.com.au> Wrote in message:r> If that's true, how can you explain your theory that Federer was past his peak at 27?I think you said because players are a little slower as they age they are therefore lesser tennis players? I

always thought this idea of yours was batshit crazy and made no sense. You can still be a better tennis player even if you are slower and weaker as you age. What you gain in experience and knowledge far exceeds what you lose in a bit of speed, thus
making you a better *tennis* player. If this doesn't apply to Roger then he must be lacking in a lot of champion qualities. We can't have a goat who's so deficient he can't improve his tennis after 27. You'd think in Roger's case he most definitely
would have improved as he aged, given all the variety and skill he's supposed to possess, which give him even more options to win points. I think the players who really do become lesser tennis players as they age are the 1 dimensional types who can't
compete after their 1 big shot, eg serve, loses it's power. Those types have nothing to fall back on. Roger is the exact opposite, he was rich in variety/options, even moreso than Djokovic.He also says Djokovic is the best ever and that can no longer
be debated, but he said we can still debate who are our favorite players : )https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC8xa_EJ7SkNot sure I'm following?Muratoglu highlights Djokovic's two top seasons in terms of important titles won (3 slams and YEC) and those are
2015 and 2023.He says it's crazy that they're nearly 10 years apart and that today Novak is a better player than he was back then, and implying the tour constantly improves, the reason Djokovic has been so successful even at this age is that he hasn't
dropped physically.He claims that was the key, no?-- ----Android NewsGroup Reader----https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html



Basically this are key tenants of Muratoglu analysis:

1) ceibs. Everyone constantly improves, modern era players are the best.

2) since everyone has improved since 2015, then Djokovic has done it as well so improvements don't make difference.

3) Djokovic was best in 2015 and he's best now in 2023 too because he stayed physically where he was in 2015, that was the key.



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Whisper <whisper@ozemail.com.au> wrote:

If that's true,

Didn't Djoker himself say that he is now better than
ten years ago? I.e. he could beat his old self.

br,
KK

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

PeteWasLucky <waleed.khedr@gmail.com> Wrote in message:

We can see the logic that drove your brain to answer the question. You answered "yes" and your measuring stick was Sinner :)

And what's wrong with Sinner?
Let's check elo ratings?


https://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/eloRatings

ITA Jannik Sinner 2256 PTS



Now let's check elo ratings of some guys against whom Federer won YEC? Say 2006?

USA James Blake 2147 PTS




Any thoughts on this measuring stick?



Actually, forget about elo are you really trying to say that there's something wrong with Sinner?

That he's worse or even similar to e.g. Blake or Ferrer or Hewitt or Tsonga?

Those guys?

Federer won 4 YEC titles against those guys in finals. But Sinner is a "weak" opponent?







--




----Android NewsGroup Reader---- https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

PeteWasLucky <waleed.khedr@gmail.com> Wrote in message:

If you need to say Djokovic is better at age 36 than 30 then you need really a good consistent measuring stick that is used to measure him at age 30 and 36. Sinner isn't that measuring stick, believe me.These youngsters are stupid ball bashers that

will get lucky from time to time, as he did in DC. Do I remember Federer dismissing Medvedev in str8 sets breaking him three times in Miami last time they played when Federer was 37/38? These are tennis greats and those brainless ball bashers don't come
any close. Does Federer beating Djokovic in ATP finals 2019 or having two match points in Wimbledon the same year make him better player than he was when he was ten years younger? Of course not. It's all stupid talk, as 98% of the people live in the
moment.



So what's your point? You feel tour is regressing?

Remember Muratoglu said tour is actually constantly improving.



--




----Android NewsGroup Reader---- https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/12/2023 5:58 am, PeteWasLucky wrote:

*skriptis <skriptis@post.t-com.hr> Wrote in message:r

PeteWasLucky <waleed.khedr@gmail.com> Wrote in message:> We can see the logic that drove your brain to answer the question. You answered "yes" and your measuring stick was Sinner :)And what's wrong with Sinner?Let's check elo ratings?https://www.

ultimatetennisstatistics.com/eloRatingsITA Jannik Sinner 2256 PTSNow let's check elo ratings of some guys against whom Federer won YEC? Say 2006?USA James Blake 2147 PTS Any thoughts on this measuring stick?Actually, forget about elo are you really
trying to say that there's something wrong with Sinner?That he's worse or even similar to e.g. Blake or Ferrer or Hewitt or Tsonga?Those guys?Federer won 4 YEC titles against those guys in finals. But Sinner is a "weak" opponent?-- ----Android NewsGroup
Reader----https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html

If you need to say Djokovic is better at age 36 than 30 then you need really a good consistent measuring stick that is used to measure him at age 30 and 36.

Sinner isn't that measuring stick, believe me.
These youngsters are stupid ball bashers that will get lucky from time to time, as he did in DC.

Do I remember Federer dismissing Medvedev in str8 sets breaking him three times in Miami last time they played when Federer was 37/38?

These are tennis greats and those brainless ball bashers don't come any close.

Does Federer beating Djokovic in ATP finals 2019 or having two match points in Wimbledon the same year make him better player than he was when he was ten years younger? Of course not.

It's all stupid talk, as 98% of the people live in the moment.

You said Roger was past his peak at age 27 and we shouldn't expect him
to win slams. Djokovic won more slams after 30 than before 30.
Djokovic beat Federer in 3 Wimbledon finals.

You seem impervious to logic when it comes to Federer. I reevaluate as
new evidence comes in, whereas nothing Novak does can make you change
your thinking.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 2/12/2023 8:19 pm, Whisper wrote:

On 2/12/2023 5:58 am, PeteWasLucky wrote:

*skriptis <skriptis@post.t-com.hr> Wrote in message:r

PeteWasLucky <waleed.khedr@gmail.com> Wrote in message:> We can see
the logic that drove your brain to answer the question. You answered
"yes" and your measuring stick was Sinner :)And what's wrong with
Sinner?Let's check elo
ratings?https://www.ultimatetennisstatistics.com/eloRatingsITA
Jannik Sinner 2256 PTSNow let's check elo ratings of some guys
against whom Federer won YEC? Say 2006?USA    James Blake    2147 PTS >>> Any thoughts on this measuring stick?Actually, forget about elo are
you really trying to say that there's something wrong with
Sinner?That he's worse or even similar to e.g. Blake or Ferrer or
Hewitt or Tsonga?Those guys?Federer won 4 YEC titles against those
guys in finals. But Sinner is a "weak" opponent?-- ----Android
NewsGroup
Reader----https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html

If you need to say Djokovic is better at age 36 than 30 then you need
really a good consistent measuring stick that is used to measure him
at age 30 and 36.

Sinner isn't that measuring stick, believe me.
These youngsters are stupid ball bashers that will get lucky from time
to time, as he did in DC.

Do I remember Federer dismissing Medvedev in str8 sets breaking him
three times in Miami last time they played when Federer was 37/38?

These are tennis greats and those brainless ball bashers don't come
any close.

Does Federer beating Djokovic in ATP finals 2019 or having two match
points in Wimbledon the same year make him better player than he was
when he was ten years younger? Of course not.

It's all stupid talk, as 98% of the people live in the moment.

You said Roger was past his peak at age 27 and we shouldn't expect him
to win slams.  Djokovic won more slams after 30 than before 30. Djokovic beat Federer in 3 Wimbledon finals.

You seem impervious to logic when it comes to Federer.  I reevaluate as
new evidence comes in, whereas nothing Novak does can make you change
your thinking.

But please don't change the way you think. How boring would it be if we
all accepted logic/facts? My hope is for Novak to win a calendar slam
and get to way over 30 slams, and still have you in rst arguing Roger is
goat because he won 80% of his slams before Novak/Nadal were men, which coincided with his peak, a level Novak/Nadal could simply dream about -
now that's entertaining : )

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Whisper <whisper@ozemail.com.au> Wrote in message:r

On 2/12/2023 12:26 pm, PeteWasLucky wrote:> Court_1 <olympia0000@yahoo.com> Wrote in message:r>> On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 9:03:20AM UTC-5, PeteWasLucky wrote:> Whisper <whi...@ozemail.com.au> Wrote in message:r> > If that's true, how can you

explain your theory that Federer was past his peak at 27?I think you said because players are a little slower as they age they are therefore lesser tennis players? I always thought this idea of yours was batshit crazy and made no sense. You can still be
a better tennis player even if you are slower and weaker as you age. What you gain in experience and knowledge far exceeds what you lose in a bit of speed, thus making you a better *tennis* player. If this doesn't apply to Roger then he must be lacking
in a lot of champion qualities. We can't have a goat who's so deficient he can't improve his tennis after 27. You'd think in Roger's case he most definitely would have improved as he aged, given all the variety and skill he's supposed to possess, which
give him even more options to win points. I think the players who really do become lesser tennis players as they age are the 1 dimensional types who can't compete after their 1 big shot, eg serve, loses it's power. Those types have nothing to fall back
on. Roger is the exact opposite, he was rich in variety/options, even moreso than Djokovic.He also says Djokovic is the best ever and that can no longer be debated, but he said we can still debate who are our favorite players : )https://www.youtube.com/
watch?v=KC8xa_EJ7Sk > You think this Djokovic would beat a 30 years old Federer? Yes. Why wouldn't he? When both were at their best, Djokovic would win the biggest matches 8 times out of 10. Why? Because he was better during crunch moments and because
he had more consistency(being a human wall.) He knew if he was patient, Federer would make errors and that's exactly what happened. Both GOAT level players but that was the difference that mattered.> > No he wouldn't. Who stopped djoks winning streak in
2011? It was> Federer in the FO SF. Who took the #1 ranking from Djok in 2019> by beating him in ATP final? It was Federer.> Turn the table around, and let the 25 years old Federer play the> 31 years old djokovic and keep playing him until they are

years older, and you will see a different pattern of> results.> > As I mentioned a few times, you can plot the h2h of players that> have a gap in their ages, for example do it for Federer vs> Djokovic, or for example Lendl vs Connors, and

you will see the> fact of aging.> > You're hilarious. Please don't change your mind about this ageing out at 27 theory, it's part of what makes rst great : )




I guess Djokovic's longevity is what makes him bad?


Winning YEC against Sinner when you're well into your 30s is bad, but true domination is winning YEC against Blake when you're in your mid 20s.









--




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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

PeteWasLucky <waleed.khedr@gmail.com> Wrote in message:

I will make you and whisper happy and say Djokovic is getting better as he ages

You're being sarcastic now but players constantly improving to fight off competition and compensate for age related decline is a known fact.

We're kinda mocking your for your denial of well known facts. Can you see that?


Just do basic math yourself and tell us.


Has Djokovic improved physically to have this dominant season? Personally I doubt a 36-year old can do that.

Has he improved strategically and technically? That's my tip.

Or has the tour regressed? Not really.


Which one is for you?

...but suddenly he will go down from his best to his worse, we don't know about that moment, but it's a magical point in Novak's and Federer's career that defies logic in such way that their games go from the best to the worst :) Happy now?

Sure, it's what success is all about. How long can you keep improving and maintaining your overall level. In the end, everyone will meet their end, no doubt about that.



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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

PeteWasLucky <waleed.khedr@gmail.com> Wrote in message:r

In the end, everyone will meet their end, no doubt about that.Now you are talking about life, let's try this :)So, everyone met their end abruptly? Youth to sudden death? Do you not believe you forgot something in between?Yes, exactly, called aging

and getting older, we all do go through these phases.The same applies to athletes' careers.----Android NewsGroup Reader----https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html


So what enabled Djokovic to seemingly defy gravity, nature, age in this season?

If we abide with your theory that declines are sometimes gradual, not abrupt, we can expect a gradual or a sudden decline equally. Sure.

But the thing is, there has not been a decline statswise in his results, actually, as much as cherrypicked this season was, it shows the opposite.

In terms of big titles won, it's his best in last 8 years. So you have to call it as it is, it's an improvement.

So how did he achieve it, what made difference?


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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

PeteWasLucky <waleed.khedr@gmail.com> Wrote in message:r

*skriptis <skriptis@post.t-com.hr> Wrote in message:r> PeteWasLucky <waleed.khedr@gmail.com> Wrote in message:> If you need to say Djokovic is better at age 36 than 30 then you need really a good consistent measuring stick that is used to measure him

at age 30 and 36. Sinner isn't that measuring stick, believe me.These youngsters are stupid ball bashers that will get lucky from time to time, as he did in DC. Do I remember Federer dismissing Medvedev in str8 sets breaking him three times in Miami last
time they played when Federer was 37/38? These are tennis greats and those brainless ball bashers don't come any close. Does Federer beating Djokovic in ATP finals 2019 or having two match points in Wimbledon the same year make him better player than he
was when he was ten years younger? Of course not. It's all stupid talk, as 98% of the people live in the moment.So what's your point? You feel tour is regressing?Remember Muratoglu said tour is actually constantly improving. -- ----Android NewsGroup
Reader----https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.htmlAt some point anyone with some common sense will start to wonder, does it make sense these three players can continue to dominate the tour into their late thirties this way? Are they
that super good (A)? Or are they facing poor competition (B)?Answers could be A, B or A&B.Anyone with common sense would realize option A isn't realistic specially for 15 years into their late thirties. Then it must be option B, if you do some research
you will find it makes full sense, inspecting the performance of every young player and their consistency from one slam to another and their ups and downs.I will definitely choose option B and add to it option A as well giving these greats the full
credit for taking advantage of their poor competition and milking every ounce of success they are able to.




I see you're hurt. You're now where I was in 2004 or 2005 when Federer was crushing the field and all I saw was bunch of losers there.


YEC 2005 SF

Federer - Gaudio, 6-0, 6-0

Gaudio was FO champion the year before.




So I understand your pain, but surely you're mature enough to know that we can't invoke "clown era" arguments if there was no world war, no tour interruptions, no top players being killed, or no top players being banned?

2023 tour is just as legit as 2003.


My opinion is this. Federer exploited pre Nadal/Djokovic tour quite well, he amassed many slams, so you should be happy about that. He didn't steal anything.

If you think this tour now is weak, well, I disagree that it's as weak as the one which Federer dominated.

But even if it is weak, it means such stuff is cyclical and Djokovic is taking what's there to be taken. It's a fair game.





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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

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--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)