In the US, at least, we're in a phase in which valued workers who, prior
to COVID, were permitted as a perk to work from home 1 or 2 days a week,
now want to continue to work from home (or remotely) just as they had
to, during COVID. And this is in conflict with a large percentage of
corporate personnel polices--perhaps even the majority.

I'm curious what the thoughts are of the RSTers are on this topic. I can
see it from both sides, but being retired for >10 years now, my
expectancies are tinged by working in an earlier era.

This is a kind of lightweight article that runs across the top of the
topic, but at least does a fair job of identifying some of the major
aspects of this apparent cultural collision. Too, the CEO who was
interviewed had already thrown in the towel before COVID, and like all
CEOs, is incapable of making mistakes, so...

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/san-francisco-ceo-closing-215-195939580.html

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Shit <-----------------------------------------------------> Shinola
"Which is which?" --Sawfish

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Saturday, October 28, 2023 at 8:35:11 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:

In the US, at least, we're in a phase in which valued workers who, prior
to COVID, were permitted as a perk to work from home 1 or 2 days a week,
now want to continue to work from home (or remotely) just as they had
to, during COVID. And this is in conflict with a large percentage of corporate personnel polices--perhaps even the majority.

I'm curious what the thoughts are of the RSTers are on this topic. I can
see it from both sides, but being retired for >10 years now, my
expectancies are tinged by working in an earlier era.

This is a kind of lightweight article that runs across the top of the
topic, but at least does a fair job of identifying some of the major
aspects of this apparent cultural collision. Too, the CEO who was interviewed had already thrown in the towel before COVID, and like all
CEOs, is incapable of making mistakes, so...

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/san-francisco-ceo-closing-215-195939580.html

Traditional corporate culture structure depends on keeping a collar around workers' necks. Making them conform and compete against each other is much easier when they are physically on site and among the "pack."

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Saturday, 28 October 2023 at 16:48:25 UTC+1, Gracchus wrote:

On Saturday, October 28, 2023 at 8:35:11 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:

In the US, at least, we're in a phase in which valued workers who, prior to COVID, were permitted as a perk to work from home 1 or 2 days a week, now want to continue to work from home (or remotely) just as they had
to, during COVID. And this is in conflict with a large percentage of corporate personnel polices--perhaps even the majority.

I'm curious what the thoughts are of the RSTers are on this topic. I can see it from both sides, but being retired for >10 years now, my expectancies are tinged by working in an earlier era.

This is a kind of lightweight article that runs across the top of the topic, but at least does a fair job of identifying some of the major aspects of this apparent cultural collision. Too, the CEO who was interviewed had already thrown in the towel before COVID, and like all CEOs, is incapable of making mistakes, so...

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/san-francisco-ceo-closing-215-195939580.html

Traditional corporate culture structure depends on keeping a collar around workers' necks. Making them conform and compete against each other is much easier when they are physically on site and among the "pack."

yes reason they want people in the office is mostly so managers can watch them, it also good/needed for certain types like designers creative types to chat etc. but other jobs never been any point, like IT guys they don't talk to anyone anyway and
everything they do like reset passwords etc can be done on net or phone anyway, this proved by bmoore moaning about "not fitting in", it would've been much better if he'd just worked at home since internet happened. Elon Musk is right though saying you
get lot more productivity cos millennials and Gen Z mostly been brought up to be lazy or need to be shown how to do absolutely everything and it good for young folks to meet other people. Gotta say in London worst thing about work is commute getting
there, usually takes least 1 hour, so that sometimes 3 hours per day packed onto train or bus totally bored.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, 30 October 2023 at 10:12:38 UTC, The Iceberg wrote:

On Saturday, 28 October 2023 at 16:48:25 UTC+1, Gracchus wrote:

On Saturday, October 28, 2023 at 8:35:11 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:

In the US, at least, we're in a phase in which valued workers who, prior to COVID, were permitted as a perk to work from home 1 or 2 days a week, now want to continue to work from home (or remotely) just as they had to, during COVID. And this is in conflict with a large percentage of corporate personnel polices--perhaps even the majority.

I'm curious what the thoughts are of the RSTers are on this topic. I can see it from both sides, but being retired for >10 years now, my expectancies are tinged by working in an earlier era.

This is a kind of lightweight article that runs across the top of the topic, but at least does a fair job of identifying some of the major aspects of this apparent cultural collision. Too, the CEO who was interviewed had already thrown in the towel before COVID, and like all CEOs, is incapable of making mistakes, so...

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/san-francisco-ceo-closing-215-195939580.html

Traditional corporate culture structure depends on keeping a collar around workers' necks. Making them conform and compete against each other is much easier when they are physically on site and among the "pack."

yes reason they want people in the office is mostly so managers can watch them, it also good/needed for certain types like designers creative types to chat etc. but other jobs never been any point, like IT guys they don't talk to anyone anyway and

everything they do like reset passwords etc can be done on net or phone anyway, this proved by bmoore moaning about "not fitting in", it would've been much better if he'd just worked at home since internet happened. Elon Musk is right though saying you
get lot more productivity cos millennials and Gen Z mostly been brought up to be lazy or need to be shown how to do absolutely everything and it good for young folks to meet other people. Gotta say in London worst thing about work is commute getting
there, usually takes least 1 hour, so that sometimes 3 hours per day packed onto train or bus totally bored.

know lots of people that love it though cos they prefer to be out of their houses!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 3:12:38 AM UTC-7, The Iceberg wrote:

On Saturday, 28 October 2023 at 16:48:25 UTC+1, Gracchus wrote:

On Saturday, October 28, 2023 at 8:35:11 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:

In the US, at least, we're in a phase in which valued workers who, prior to COVID, were permitted as a perk to work from home 1 or 2 days a week, now want to continue to work from home (or remotely) just as they had to, during COVID. And this is in conflict with a large percentage of corporate personnel polices--perhaps even the majority.

I'm curious what the thoughts are of the RSTers are on this topic. I can see it from both sides, but being retired for >10 years now, my expectancies are tinged by working in an earlier era.

This is a kind of lightweight article that runs across the top of the topic, but at least does a fair job of identifying some of the major aspects of this apparent cultural collision. Too, the CEO who was interviewed had already thrown in the towel before COVID, and like all CEOs, is incapable of making mistakes, so...

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/san-francisco-ceo-closing-215-195939580.html

Traditional corporate culture structure depends on keeping a collar around workers' necks. Making them conform and compete against each other is much easier when they are physically on site and among the "pack."

yes reason they want people in the office is mostly so managers can watch them, it also good/needed for certain types like designers creative types to chat etc. but other jobs never been any point, like IT guys they don't talk to anyone anyway and

everything they do like reset passwords etc can be done on net or phone anyway, this proved by bmoore moaning about "not fitting in", it would've been much better if he'd just worked at home since internet happened. Elon Musk is right though saying you
get lot more productivity cos millennials and Gen Z mostly been brought up to be lazy or need to be shown how to do absolutely everything and it good for young folks to meet other people. Gotta say in London worst thing about work is commute getting
there, usually takes least 1 hour, so that sometimes 3 hours per day packed onto train or bus totally bored.

For once I agree with Iceberg. I have worked remotely for 6 years now.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 3:13:28 AM UTC-7, The Iceberg wrote:

On Monday, 30 October 2023 at 10:12:38 UTC, The Iceberg wrote:

On Saturday, 28 October 2023 at 16:48:25 UTC+1, Gracchus wrote:

On Saturday, October 28, 2023 at 8:35:11 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:

In the US, at least, we're in a phase in which valued workers who, prior
to COVID, were permitted as a perk to work from home 1 or 2 days a week,
now want to continue to work from home (or remotely) just as they had to, during COVID. And this is in conflict with a large percentage of corporate personnel polices--perhaps even the majority.

I'm curious what the thoughts are of the RSTers are on this topic. I can
see it from both sides, but being retired for >10 years now, my expectancies are tinged by working in an earlier era.

This is a kind of lightweight article that runs across the top of the topic, but at least does a fair job of identifying some of the major aspects of this apparent cultural collision. Too, the CEO who was interviewed had already thrown in the towel before COVID, and like all CEOs, is incapable of making mistakes, so...

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/san-francisco-ceo-closing-215-195939580.html

Traditional corporate culture structure depends on keeping a collar around workers' necks. Making them conform and compete against each other is much easier when they are physically on site and among the "pack."

yes reason they want people in the office is mostly so managers can watch them, it also good/needed for certain types like designers creative types to chat etc. but other jobs never been any point, like IT guys they don't talk to anyone anyway and

everything they do like reset passwords etc can be done on net or phone anyway, this proved by bmoore moaning about "not fitting in", it would've been much better if he'd just worked at home since internet happened. Elon Musk is right though saying you
get lot more productivity cos millennials and Gen Z mostly been brought up to be lazy or need to be shown how to do absolutely everything and it good for young folks to meet other people. Gotta say in London worst thing about work is commute getting
there, usually takes least 1 hour, so that sometimes 3 hours per day packed onto train or bus totally bored.

know lots of people that love it though cos they prefer to be out of their houses!

Sure, but depends on the office environment.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 10/30/23 11:30 AM, bmoore wrote:

On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 3:12:38 AM UTC-7, The Iceberg wrote:

On Saturday, 28 October 2023 at 16:48:25 UTC+1, Gracchus wrote:

On Saturday, October 28, 2023 at 8:35:11 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:

In the US, at least, we're in a phase in which valued workers who, prior >>>> to COVID, were permitted as a perk to work from home 1 or 2 days a week, >>>> now want to continue to work from home (or remotely) just as they had
to, during COVID. And this is in conflict with a large percentage of
corporate personnel polices--perhaps even the majority.

I'm curious what the thoughts are of the RSTers are on this topic. I can >>>> see it from both sides, but being retired for >10 years now, my
expectancies are tinged by working in an earlier era.

This is a kind of lightweight article that runs across the top of the
topic, but at least does a fair job of identifying some of the major
aspects of this apparent cultural collision. Too, the CEO who was
interviewed had already thrown in the towel before COVID, and like all >>>> CEOs, is incapable of making mistakes, so...

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/san-francisco-ceo-closing-215-195939580.html

Traditional corporate culture structure depends on keeping a collar around workers' necks. Making them conform and compete against each other is much easier when they are physically on site and among the "pack."

yes reason they want people in the office is mostly so managers can watch them, it also good/needed for certain types like designers creative types to chat etc. but other jobs never been any point, like IT guys they don't talk to anyone anyway and

everything they do like reset passwords etc can be done on net or phone anyway, this proved by bmoore moaning about "not fitting in", it would've been much better if he'd just worked at home since internet happened. Elon Musk is right though saying you
get lot more productivity cos millennials and Gen Z mostly been brought up to be lazy or need to be shown how to do absolutely everything and it good for young folks to meet other people. Gotta say in London worst thing about work is commute getting
there, usually takes least 1 hour, so that sometimes 3 hours per day packed onto train or bus totally bored.

For once I agree with Iceberg. I have worked remotely for 6 years now.

In your heart of hearts, do you think that the overwhelming majority of
those who do work that involves mid-to-large scale integrated
design--and this can be non-technical as well as technical (e.g. ad
copywriting and PR) are as demonstrably productive working remotely as
working in a structured office environment?

I ask you to flip your POV to that of your employing entity. Completely disregard the fact that it is much better for your life to never
commute. I was well aware that the most taxing part of my job for the
last 4-5 years was a 30 mile round trip commute 5 days a week.

I mean, I know of people who worked from home who were basically
unreliable so far as impromtu meetings, etc.

I'm playing with the idea that since the remote phase, individual
productivity, however it is measure (and even *if* it can be measured),
has halted or dropped.

https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F29c3ef38-e207-41c5-815a-0cdbde1b01ee_705x430.jpeg

Does it seem like common sense that while many employees would do about
as well remotely, a significant minority would tend to sluff off to some measurable degree, where they had not been able to get away with it
while in the office? Even if the majority did as well remoterly, that
minority would drag the numbers down.

This is a complex issue, and one that many people have a stake in. I,
too, liked working from home better than making that 30 mile trip, but
I've got to admit that I believe that I was more productive and
focused--not to mention the impromtu white board brainstorming
sessions--when in the office.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"It was public knowledge that Sawfish was a loner with strong misanthropic tendencies: it was rare for him to even say a word to his dog."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Saturday, October 28, 2023 at 8:48:25 AM UTC-7, Gracchus wrote:

On Saturday, October 28, 2023 at 8:35:11 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:

In the US, at least, we're in a phase in which valued workers who, prior to COVID, were permitted as a perk to work from home 1 or 2 days a week, now want to continue to work from home (or remotely) just as they had
to, during COVID. And this is in conflict with a large percentage of corporate personnel polices--perhaps even the majority.

I'm curious what the thoughts are of the RSTers are on this topic. I can see it from both sides, but being retired for >10 years now, my expectancies are tinged by working in an earlier era.

This is a kind of lightweight article that runs across the top of the topic, but at least does a fair job of identifying some of the major aspects of this apparent cultural collision. Too, the CEO who was interviewed had already thrown in the towel before COVID, and like all CEOs, is incapable of making mistakes, so...

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/san-francisco-ceo-closing-215-195939580.html

Traditional corporate culture structure depends on keeping a collar around workers' necks. Making them conform and compete against each other is much easier when they are physically on site and among the "pack."

We can split the rationales for remote vs in office into worker/employer

Worker (pro):

Avoiding commute.
Potentially making domestic responsibilities easier
Potentially more flexible hours
Reduce auto coasts (fuel/maintenance)

(cons)
must pay for heating/cooling

Employers (pros):

Reduced rent/lease/heat cool/power bills.
Happier workforce.

(cons)

Possible reduction in interpersonal synergy.
Cannot build a management empire as easily.
Less impromtu direct communication.
Loss of face-to-face non-verbal communication.

If an employer feels that corporate success is enhanced moderately by an in-office workforce, who determines if this is a reasonable work requirement?
I realize that indeed, many lower-middle managers are petty and small-minded, and they prefer to have the authority to force employees back into the office, solely for their (management) career satisfaction.

But if both are true (corporate success is enhanced by in office workers) and the pissant lower managers are happier simply to have bodies to order around, what is the correct answer to the remote/in-office question?

If productivity is perceived to be declining, how can we tell? Is it even necessary, legally, for employers to justify requiring an in-office workforce, barring a written agreement?

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 10/30/23 2:16 PM, bmoore wrote:

On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 12:08:43 PM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:

On 10/30/23 11:30 AM, bmoore wrote:

On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 3:12:38 AM UTC-7, The Iceberg wrote:

On Saturday, 28 October 2023 at 16:48:25 UTC+1, Gracchus wrote:

On Saturday, October 28, 2023 at 8:35:11 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote: >>>>>> In the US, at least, we're in a phase in which valued workers who, prior >>>>>> to COVID, were permitted as a perk to work from home 1 or 2 days a week, >>>>>> now want to continue to work from home (or remotely) just as they had >>>>>> to, during COVID. And this is in conflict with a large percentage of >>>>>> corporate personnel polices--perhaps even the majority.

I'm curious what the thoughts are of the RSTers are on this topic. I can >>>>>> see it from both sides, but being retired for >10 years now, my
expectancies are tinged by working in an earlier era.

This is a kind of lightweight article that runs across the top of the >>>>>> topic, but at least does a fair job of identifying some of the major >>>>>> aspects of this apparent cultural collision. Too, the CEO who was
interviewed had already thrown in the towel before COVID, and like all >>>>>> CEOs, is incapable of making mistakes, so...

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/san-francisco-ceo-closing-215-195939580.html

Traditional corporate culture structure depends on keeping a collar around workers' necks. Making them conform and compete against each other is much easier when they are physically on site and among the "pack."

yes reason they want people in the office is mostly so managers can watch them, it also good/needed for certain types like designers creative types to chat etc. but other jobs never been any point, like IT guys they don't talk to anyone anyway and

everything they do like reset passwords etc can be done on net or phone anyway, this proved by bmoore moaning about "not fitting in", it would've been much better if he'd just worked at home since internet happened. Elon Musk is right though saying you
get lot more productivity cos millennials and Gen Z mostly been brought up to be lazy or need to be shown how to do absolutely everything and it good for young folks to meet other people. Gotta say in London worst thing about work is commute getting
there, usually takes least 1 hour, so that sometimes 3 hours per day packed onto train or bus totally bored.

For once I agree with Iceberg. I have worked remotely for 6 years now.

In your heart of hearts, do you think that the overwhelming majority of
those who do work that involves mid-to-large scale integrated
design--and this can be non-technical as well as technical (e.g. ad
copywriting and PR) are as demonstrably productive working remotely as
working in a structured office environment?

I ask you to flip your POV to that of your employing entity. Completely
disregard the fact that it is much better for your life to never
commute. I was well aware that the most taxing part of my job for the
last 4-5 years was a 30 mile round trip commute 5 days a week.

I mean, I know of people who worked from home who were basically
unreliable so far as impromtu meetings, etc.

I'm playing with the idea that since the remote phase, individual
productivity, however it is measure (and even *if* it can be measured),
has halted or dropped.

https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F29c3ef38-e207-41c5-815a-0cdbde1b01ee_705x430.jpeg

Does it seem like common sense that while many employees would do about
as well remotely, a significant minority would tend to sluff off to some
measurable degree, where they had not been able to get away with it
while in the office? Even if the majority did as well remoterly, that
minority would drag the numbers down.

This is a complex issue, and one that many people have a stake in. I,
too, liked working from home better than making that 30 mile trip, but
I've got to admit that I believe that I was more productive and
focused--not to mention the impromtu white board brainstorming
sessions--when in the office.

It depends on the variables. The whiteboarding is obviously very useful.

In my current job, I work on my own and it works out.

When I was younger, "getting out of the house", as Iceberg said, was definitely a consideration. No more. Plus, my current employer doesn't even have cubicles, just shoves us all together into a big room. F that. So I like that they let this old man

work remotely.

Yep this issues opens into a whole lot of ancillary ones...

When I started SW in 84 we had either an office to ourselves, or a
shared office (one other person). This devolved to always shared
offices, then quickly to various kinds of cubicle, and then at some
point so kind of productivity guru decided that opening up the work
environment was somehow a good thing (it was a cheaper thing, and let's
face it, it mitigated against web browsing on company time). I never had
to do that and I really think I'd have had a lot of trouble with it. For
one, I have always hit the keys REAL HARD and I'd even gotten complaints
from the neurotics in the company this was too much.

So there are a lot of aspects to the work environment, for sure.

But ultimately, does the employee (non-union) have any real right to
think that they get to determine the work environment, other than simply pulling up stakes and going to a new employer who promises something
different? I mean, unless it's in writing, I don't see why an employee
could ever think this.

Too, you can always tell management about what bothers you in the office
(like the pathetic neurotics did that one time) and if they value you,
they might try to meet you halfway.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Reality is that thing that does not go away when you stop believing in it."

--Sawfish ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 12:08:43 PM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:

On 10/30/23 11:30 AM, bmoore wrote:

On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 3:12:38 AM UTC-7, The Iceberg wrote:

On Saturday, 28 October 2023 at 16:48:25 UTC+1, Gracchus wrote:

On Saturday, October 28, 2023 at 8:35:11 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:

In the US, at least, we're in a phase in which valued workers who, prior
to COVID, were permitted as a perk to work from home 1 or 2 days a week,
now want to continue to work from home (or remotely) just as they had >>>> to, during COVID. And this is in conflict with a large percentage of >>>> corporate personnel polices--perhaps even the majority.

I'm curious what the thoughts are of the RSTers are on this topic. I can
see it from both sides, but being retired for >10 years now, my
expectancies are tinged by working in an earlier era.

This is a kind of lightweight article that runs across the top of the >>>> topic, but at least does a fair job of identifying some of the major >>>> aspects of this apparent cultural collision. Too, the CEO who was
interviewed had already thrown in the towel before COVID, and like all >>>> CEOs, is incapable of making mistakes, so...

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/san-francisco-ceo-closing-215-195939580.html

Traditional corporate culture structure depends on keeping a collar around workers' necks. Making them conform and compete against each other is much easier when they are physically on site and among the "pack."

yes reason they want people in the office is mostly so managers can watch them, it also good/needed for certain types like designers creative types to chat etc. but other jobs never been any point, like IT guys they don't talk to anyone anyway and

everything they do like reset passwords etc can be done on net or phone anyway, this proved by bmoore moaning about "not fitting in", it would've been much better if he'd just worked at home since internet happened. Elon Musk is right though saying you
get lot more productivity cos millennials and Gen Z mostly been brought up to be lazy or need to be shown how to do absolutely everything and it good for young folks to meet other people. Gotta say in London worst thing about work is commute getting
there, usually takes least 1 hour, so that sometimes 3 hours per day packed onto train or bus totally bored.

For once I agree with Iceberg. I have worked remotely for 6 years now.

In your heart of hearts, do you think that the overwhelming majority of those who do work that involves mid-to-large scale integrated
design--and this can be non-technical as well as technical (e.g. ad copywriting and PR) are as demonstrably productive working remotely as working in a structured office environment?

I ask you to flip your POV to that of your employing entity. Completely disregard the fact that it is much better for your life to never
commute. I was well aware that the most taxing part of my job for the
last 4-5 years was a 30 mile round trip commute 5 days a week.

I mean, I know of people who worked from home who were basically
unreliable so far as impromtu meetings, etc.

I'm playing with the idea that since the remote phase, individual productivity, however it is measure (and even *if* it can be measured),
has halted or dropped.

https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F29c3ef38-e207-41c5-815a-0cdbde1b01ee_705x430.jpeg

Does it seem like common sense that while many employees would do about
as well remotely, a significant minority would tend to sluff off to some measurable degree, where they had not been able to get away with it
while in the office? Even if the majority did as well remoterly, that minority would drag the numbers down.

This is a complex issue, and one that many people have a stake in. I,
too, liked working from home better than making that 30 mile trip, but
I've got to admit that I believe that I was more productive and
focused--not to mention the impromtu white board brainstorming sessions--when in the office.

It depends on the variables. The whiteboarding is obviously very useful.

In my current job, I work on my own and it works out.

When I was younger, "getting out of the house", as Iceberg said, was definitely a consideration. No more. Plus, my current employer doesn't even have cubicles, just shoves us all together into a big room. F that. So I like that they let this old man work
remotely.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 2:35:49 PM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:

On 10/30/23 2:16 PM, bmoore wrote:

On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 12:08:43 PM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:

On 10/30/23 11:30 AM, bmoore wrote:

On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 3:12:38 AM UTC-7, The Iceberg wrote: >>>> On Saturday, 28 October 2023 at 16:48:25 UTC+1, Gracchus wrote:

On Saturday, October 28, 2023 at 8:35:11 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote: >>>>>> In the US, at least, we're in a phase in which valued workers who, prior

to COVID, were permitted as a perk to work from home 1 or 2 days a week,
now want to continue to work from home (or remotely) just as they had >>>>>> to, during COVID. And this is in conflict with a large percentage of >>>>>> corporate personnel polices--perhaps even the majority.

I'm curious what the thoughts are of the RSTers are on this topic. I can
see it from both sides, but being retired for >10 years now, my >>>>>> expectancies are tinged by working in an earlier era.

This is a kind of lightweight article that runs across the top of the >>>>>> topic, but at least does a fair job of identifying some of the major >>>>>> aspects of this apparent cultural collision. Too, the CEO who was >>>>>> interviewed had already thrown in the towel before COVID, and like all
CEOs, is incapable of making mistakes, so...

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/san-francisco-ceo-closing-215-195939580.html

Traditional corporate culture structure depends on keeping a collar around workers' necks. Making them conform and compete against each other is much easier when they are physically on site and among the "pack."

yes reason they want people in the office is mostly so managers can watch them, it also good/needed for certain types like designers creative types to chat etc. but other jobs never been any point, like IT guys they don't talk to anyone anyway and

everything they do like reset passwords etc can be done on net or phone anyway, this proved by bmoore moaning about "not fitting in", it would've been much better if he'd just worked at home since internet happened. Elon Musk is right though saying you
get lot more productivity cos millennials and Gen Z mostly been brought up to be lazy or need to be shown how to do absolutely everything and it good for young folks to meet other people. Gotta say in London worst thing about work is commute getting
there, usually takes least 1 hour, so that sometimes 3 hours per day packed onto train or bus totally bored.

For once I agree with Iceberg. I have worked remotely for 6 years now. >> In your heart of hearts, do you think that the overwhelming majority of >> those who do work that involves mid-to-large scale integrated

design--and this can be non-technical as well as technical (e.g. ad
copywriting and PR) are as demonstrably productive working remotely as
working in a structured office environment?

I ask you to flip your POV to that of your employing entity. Completely >> disregard the fact that it is much better for your life to never
commute. I was well aware that the most taxing part of my job for the
last 4-5 years was a 30 mile round trip commute 5 days a week.

I mean, I know of people who worked from home who were basically
unreliable so far as impromtu meetings, etc.

I'm playing with the idea that since the remote phase, individual
productivity, however it is measure (and even *if* it can be measured), >> has halted or dropped.

https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F29c3ef38-e207-41c5-815a-0cdbde1b01ee_705x430.jpeg

Does it seem like common sense that while many employees would do about >> as well remotely, a significant minority would tend to sluff off to some >> measurable degree, where they had not been able to get away with it
while in the office? Even if the majority did as well remoterly, that
minority would drag the numbers down.

This is a complex issue, and one that many people have a stake in. I,
too, liked working from home better than making that 30 mile trip, but
I've got to admit that I believe that I was more productive and
focused--not to mention the impromtu white board brainstorming
sessions--when in the office.

It depends on the variables. The whiteboarding is obviously very useful.

In my current job, I work on my own and it works out.

When I was younger, "getting out of the house", as Iceberg said, was definitely a consideration. No more. Plus, my current employer doesn't even have cubicles, just shoves us all together into a big room. F that. So I like that they let this old man

work remotely.

Yep this issues opens into a whole lot of ancillary ones...

When I started SW in 84 we had either an office to ourselves, or a
shared office (one other person). This devolved to always shared
offices, then quickly to various kinds of cubicle, and then at some
point so kind of productivity guru decided that opening up the work environment was somehow a good thing (it was a cheaper thing, and let's
face it, it mitigated against web browsing on company time). I never had
to do that and I really think I'd have had a lot of trouble with it. For one, I have always hit the keys REAL HARD and I'd even gotten complaints from the neurotics in the company this was too much.

So there are a lot of aspects to the work environment, for sure.

But ultimately, does the employee (non-union) have any real right to
think that they get to determine the work environment, other than simply pulling up stakes and going to a new employer who promises something different? I mean, unless it's in writing, I don't see why an employee
could ever think this.

Too, you can always tell management about what bothers you in the office (like the pathetic neurotics did that one time) and if they value you,
they might try to meet you halfway.

It should always be about maximizing profit. However, human pettiness often overrides that.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, 30 October 2023 at 19:08:43 UTC, Sawfish wrote:

On 10/30/23 11:30 AM, bmoore wrote:

On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 3:12:38 AM UTC-7, The Iceberg wrote:

On Saturday, 28 October 2023 at 16:48:25 UTC+1, Gracchus wrote:

On Saturday, October 28, 2023 at 8:35:11 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:

In the US, at least, we're in a phase in which valued workers who, prior
to COVID, were permitted as a perk to work from home 1 or 2 days a week,
now want to continue to work from home (or remotely) just as they had >>>> to, during COVID. And this is in conflict with a large percentage of >>>> corporate personnel polices--perhaps even the majority.

I'm curious what the thoughts are of the RSTers are on this topic. I can
see it from both sides, but being retired for >10 years now, my
expectancies are tinged by working in an earlier era.

This is a kind of lightweight article that runs across the top of the >>>> topic, but at least does a fair job of identifying some of the major >>>> aspects of this apparent cultural collision. Too, the CEO who was
interviewed had already thrown in the towel before COVID, and like all >>>> CEOs, is incapable of making mistakes, so...

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/san-francisco-ceo-closing-215-195939580.html

Traditional corporate culture structure depends on keeping a collar around workers' necks. Making them conform and compete against each other is much easier when they are physically on site and among the "pack."

yes reason they want people in the office is mostly so managers can watch them, it also good/needed for certain types like designers creative types to chat etc. but other jobs never been any point, like IT guys they don't talk to anyone anyway and

everything they do like reset passwords etc can be done on net or phone anyway, this proved by bmoore moaning about "not fitting in", it would've been much better if he'd just worked at home since internet happened. Elon Musk is right though saying you
get lot more productivity cos millennials and Gen Z mostly been brought up to be lazy or need to be shown how to do absolutely everything and it good for young folks to meet other people. Gotta say in London worst thing about work is commute getting
there, usually takes least 1 hour, so that sometimes 3 hours per day packed onto train or bus totally bored.

For once I agree with Iceberg. I have worked remotely for 6 years now.

In your heart of hearts, do you think that the overwhelming majority of those who do work that involves mid-to-large scale integrated
design--and this can be non-technical as well as technical (e.g. ad copywriting and PR) are as demonstrably productive working remotely as working in a structured office environment?

I ask you to flip your POV to that of your employing entity. Completely disregard the fact that it is much better for your life to never
commute. I was well aware that the most taxing part of my job for the
last 4-5 years was a 30 mile round trip commute 5 days a week.

I mean, I know of people who worked from home who were basically
unreliable so far as impromtu meetings, etc.

I'm playing with the idea that since the remote phase, individual productivity, however it is measure (and even *if* it can be measured),
has halted or dropped.

https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F29c3ef38-e207-41c5-815a-0cdbde1b01ee_705x430.jpeg

Does it seem like common sense that while many employees would do about
as well remotely, a significant minority would tend to sluff off to some measurable degree, where they had not been able to get away with it
while in the office? Even if the majority did as well remoterly, that minority would drag the numbers down.

This is a complex issue, and one that many people have a stake in. I,
too, liked working from home better than making that 30 mile trip, but
I've got to admit that I believe that I was more productive and
focused--not to mention the impromtu white board brainstorming sessions--when in the office.

the thing with that graph, lots of people got COVID during that time and were ill. Also sick days will be far less at home than in the office and lots of people often work extra hours at home, so productivity may well increase, need long term study of it.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, 30 October 2023 at 21:35:49 UTC, Sawfish wrote:

On 10/30/23 2:16 PM, bmoore wrote:

On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 12:08:43 PM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:

On 10/30/23 11:30 AM, bmoore wrote:

On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 3:12:38 AM UTC-7, The Iceberg wrote: >>>> On Saturday, 28 October 2023 at 16:48:25 UTC+1, Gracchus wrote:

On Saturday, October 28, 2023 at 8:35:11 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote: >>>>>> In the US, at least, we're in a phase in which valued workers who, prior

to COVID, were permitted as a perk to work from home 1 or 2 days a week,
now want to continue to work from home (or remotely) just as they had >>>>>> to, during COVID. And this is in conflict with a large percentage of >>>>>> corporate personnel polices--perhaps even the majority.

I'm curious what the thoughts are of the RSTers are on this topic. I can
see it from both sides, but being retired for >10 years now, my >>>>>> expectancies are tinged by working in an earlier era.

This is a kind of lightweight article that runs across the top of the >>>>>> topic, but at least does a fair job of identifying some of the major >>>>>> aspects of this apparent cultural collision. Too, the CEO who was >>>>>> interviewed had already thrown in the towel before COVID, and like all
CEOs, is incapable of making mistakes, so...

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/san-francisco-ceo-closing-215-195939580.html

Traditional corporate culture structure depends on keeping a collar around workers' necks. Making them conform and compete against each other is much easier when they are physically on site and among the "pack."

yes reason they want people in the office is mostly so managers can watch them, it also good/needed for certain types like designers creative types to chat etc. but other jobs never been any point, like IT guys they don't talk to anyone anyway and

everything they do like reset passwords etc can be done on net or phone anyway, this proved by bmoore moaning about "not fitting in", it would've been much better if he'd just worked at home since internet happened. Elon Musk is right though saying you
get lot more productivity cos millennials and Gen Z mostly been brought up to be lazy or need to be shown how to do absolutely everything and it good for young folks to meet other people. Gotta say in London worst thing about work is commute getting
there, usually takes least 1 hour, so that sometimes 3 hours per day packed onto train or bus totally bored.

For once I agree with Iceberg. I have worked remotely for 6 years now. >> In your heart of hearts, do you think that the overwhelming majority of >> those who do work that involves mid-to-large scale integrated

design--and this can be non-technical as well as technical (e.g. ad
copywriting and PR) are as demonstrably productive working remotely as
working in a structured office environment?

I ask you to flip your POV to that of your employing entity. Completely >> disregard the fact that it is much better for your life to never
commute. I was well aware that the most taxing part of my job for the
last 4-5 years was a 30 mile round trip commute 5 days a week.

I mean, I know of people who worked from home who were basically
unreliable so far as impromtu meetings, etc.

I'm playing with the idea that since the remote phase, individual
productivity, however it is measure (and even *if* it can be measured), >> has halted or dropped.

https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F29c3ef38-e207-41c5-815a-0cdbde1b01ee_705x430.jpeg

Does it seem like common sense that while many employees would do about >> as well remotely, a significant minority would tend to sluff off to some >> measurable degree, where they had not been able to get away with it
while in the office? Even if the majority did as well remoterly, that
minority would drag the numbers down.

This is a complex issue, and one that many people have a stake in. I,
too, liked working from home better than making that 30 mile trip, but
I've got to admit that I believe that I was more productive and
focused--not to mention the impromtu white board brainstorming
sessions--when in the office.

It depends on the variables. The whiteboarding is obviously very useful.

In my current job, I work on my own and it works out.

When I was younger, "getting out of the house", as Iceberg said, was definitely a consideration. No more. Plus, my current employer doesn't even have cubicles, just shoves us all together into a big room. F that. So I like that they let this old man

work remotely.

Yep this issues opens into a whole lot of ancillary ones...

When I started SW in 84 we had either an office to ourselves, or a
shared office (one other person). This devolved to always shared
offices, then quickly to various kinds of cubicle, and then at some
point so kind of productivity guru decided that opening up the work environment was somehow a good thing (it was a cheaper thing, and let's
face it, it mitigated against web browsing on company time). I never had
to do that and I really think I'd have had a lot of trouble with it. For one, I have always hit the keys REAL HARD and I'd even gotten complaints from the neurotics in the company this was too much.

Mr.Loud-tapper!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, 30 October 2023 at 22:59:20 UTC, bmoore wrote:

On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 2:35:49 PM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:

On 10/30/23 2:16 PM, bmoore wrote:

On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 12:08:43 PM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote:

On 10/30/23 11:30 AM, bmoore wrote:

On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 3:12:38 AM UTC-7, The Iceberg wrote: >>>> On Saturday, 28 October 2023 at 16:48:25 UTC+1, Gracchus wrote:

On Saturday, October 28, 2023 at 8:35:11 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote: >>>>>> In the US, at least, we're in a phase in which valued workers who, prior

to COVID, were permitted as a perk to work from home 1 or 2 days a week,
now want to continue to work from home (or remotely) just as they had
to, during COVID. And this is in conflict with a large percentage of
corporate personnel polices--perhaps even the majority.

I'm curious what the thoughts are of the RSTers are on this topic. I can
see it from both sides, but being retired for >10 years now, my >>>>>> expectancies are tinged by working in an earlier era.

This is a kind of lightweight article that runs across the top of the
topic, but at least does a fair job of identifying some of the major
aspects of this apparent cultural collision. Too, the CEO who was >>>>>> interviewed had already thrown in the towel before COVID, and like all
CEOs, is incapable of making mistakes, so...

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/san-francisco-ceo-closing-215-195939580.html

Traditional corporate culture structure depends on keeping a collar around workers' necks. Making them conform and compete against each other is much easier when they are physically on site and among the "pack."

yes reason they want people in the office is mostly so managers can watch them, it also good/needed for certain types like designers creative types to chat etc. but other jobs never been any point, like IT guys they don't talk to anyone anyway

and everything they do like reset passwords etc can be done on net or phone anyway, this proved by bmoore moaning about "not fitting in", it would've been much better if he'd just worked at home since internet happened. Elon Musk is right though saying
you get lot more productivity cos millennials and Gen Z mostly been brought up to be lazy or need to be shown how to do absolutely everything and it good for young folks to meet other people. Gotta say in London worst thing about work is commute getting
there, usually takes least 1 hour, so that sometimes 3 hours per day packed onto train or bus totally bored.

For once I agree with Iceberg. I have worked remotely for 6 years now. >> In your heart of hearts, do you think that the overwhelming majority of >> those who do work that involves mid-to-large scale integrated

design--and this can be non-technical as well as technical (e.g. ad
copywriting and PR) are as demonstrably productive working remotely as >> working in a structured office environment?

I ask you to flip your POV to that of your employing entity. Completely >> disregard the fact that it is much better for your life to never
commute. I was well aware that the most taxing part of my job for the >> last 4-5 years was a 30 mile round trip commute 5 days a week.

I mean, I know of people who worked from home who were basically
unreliable so far as impromtu meetings, etc.

I'm playing with the idea that since the remote phase, individual
productivity, however it is measure (and even *if* it can be measured), >> has halted or dropped.

https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F29c3ef38-e207-41c5-815a-0cdbde1b01ee_705x430.jpeg

Does it seem like common sense that while many employees would do about >> as well remotely, a significant minority would tend to sluff off to some
measurable degree, where they had not been able to get away with it
while in the office? Even if the majority did as well remoterly, that >> minority would drag the numbers down.

This is a complex issue, and one that many people have a stake in. I, >> too, liked working from home better than making that 30 mile trip, but >> I've got to admit that I believe that I was more productive and
focused--not to mention the impromtu white board brainstorming
sessions--when in the office.

It depends on the variables. The whiteboarding is obviously very useful.

In my current job, I work on my own and it works out.

When I was younger, "getting out of the house", as Iceberg said, was definitely a consideration. No more. Plus, my current employer doesn't even have cubicles, just shoves us all together into a big room. F that. So I like that they let this old

man work remotely.

Yep this issues opens into a whole lot of ancillary ones...

When I started SW in 84 we had either an office to ourselves, or a
shared office (one other person). This devolved to always shared
offices, then quickly to various kinds of cubicle, and then at some
point so kind of productivity guru decided that opening up the work environment was somehow a good thing (it was a cheaper thing, and let's face it, it mitigated against web browsing on company time). I never had to do that and I really think I'd have had a lot of trouble with it. For one, I have always hit the keys REAL HARD and I'd even gotten complaints from the neurotics in the company this was too much.

So there are a lot of aspects to the work environment, for sure.

But ultimately, does the employee (non-union) have any real right to
think that they get to determine the work environment, other than simply pulling up stakes and going to a new employer who promises something different? I mean, unless it's in writing, I don't see why an employee could ever think this.

Too, you can always tell management about what bothers you in the office (like the pathetic neurotics did that one time) and if they value you, they might try to meet you halfway.

It should always be about maximizing profit. However, human pettiness often overrides that.

yes agree should be, but open plan office not about that, it about paranoid managers who usually have their own special cubicle or office being paranoid about their staff. Compare that to when Microsoft first started Bill Gates made sure everyone had
their own office, he said everyone loved that and said he knew they'd work harder too. Amazing how he was like that but is now a power crazed maniac that wants to ban meat except for the rich and force a global digital vax ID system so governments can
track everyone!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On 10/31/23 1:49 AM, The Iceberg wrote:

On Monday, 30 October 2023 at 19:08:43 UTC, Sawfish wrote:

On 10/30/23 11:30 AM, bmoore wrote:

On Monday, October 30, 2023 at 3:12:38 AM UTC-7, The Iceberg wrote:

On Saturday, 28 October 2023 at 16:48:25 UTC+1, Gracchus wrote:

On Saturday, October 28, 2023 at 8:35:11 AM UTC-7, Sawfish wrote: >>>>>> In the US, at least, we're in a phase in which valued workers who, prior >>>>>> to COVID, were permitted as a perk to work from home 1 or 2 days a week, >>>>>> now want to continue to work from home (or remotely) just as they had >>>>>> to, during COVID. And this is in conflict with a large percentage of >>>>>> corporate personnel polices--perhaps even the majority.

I'm curious what the thoughts are of the RSTers are on this topic. I can >>>>>> see it from both sides, but being retired for >10 years now, my
expectancies are tinged by working in an earlier era.

This is a kind of lightweight article that runs across the top of the >>>>>> topic, but at least does a fair job of identifying some of the major >>>>>> aspects of this apparent cultural collision. Too, the CEO who was
interviewed had already thrown in the towel before COVID, and like all >>>>>> CEOs, is incapable of making mistakes, so...

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/san-francisco-ceo-closing-215-195939580.html

Traditional corporate culture structure depends on keeping a collar around workers' necks. Making them conform and compete against each other is much easier when they are physically on site and among the "pack."

yes reason they want people in the office is mostly so managers can watch them, it also good/needed for certain types like designers creative types to chat etc. but other jobs never been any point, like IT guys they don't talk to anyone anyway and

everything they do like reset passwords etc can be done on net or phone anyway, this proved by bmoore moaning about "not fitting in", it would've been much better if he'd just worked at home since internet happened. Elon Musk is right though saying you
get lot more productivity cos millennials and Gen Z mostly been brought up to be lazy or need to be shown how to do absolutely everything and it good for young folks to meet other people. Gotta say in London worst thing about work is commute getting
there, usually takes least 1 hour, so that sometimes 3 hours per day packed onto train or bus totally bored.

For once I agree with Iceberg. I have worked remotely for 6 years now.

In your heart of hearts, do you think that the overwhelming majority of
those who do work that involves mid-to-large scale integrated
design--and this can be non-technical as well as technical (e.g. ad
copywriting and PR) are as demonstrably productive working remotely as
working in a structured office environment?

I ask you to flip your POV to that of your employing entity. Completely
disregard the fact that it is much better for your life to never
commute. I was well aware that the most taxing part of my job for the
last 4-5 years was a 30 mile round trip commute 5 days a week.

I mean, I know of people who worked from home who were basically
unreliable so far as impromtu meetings, etc.

I'm playing with the idea that since the remote phase, individual
productivity, however it is measure (and even *if* it can be measured),
has halted or dropped.

https://substackcdn.com/image/fetch/f_auto,q_auto:good,fl_progressive:steep/https%3A%2F%2Fbucketeer-e05bbc84-baa3-437e-9518-adb32be77984.s3.amazonaws.com%2Fpublic%2Fimages%2F29c3ef38-e207-41c5-815a-0cdbde1b01ee_705x430.jpeg

Does it seem like common sense that while many employees would do about
as well remotely, a significant minority would tend to sluff off to some
measurable degree, where they had not been able to get away with it
while in the office? Even if the majority did as well remoterly, that
minority would drag the numbers down.

This is a complex issue, and one that many people have a stake in. I,
too, liked working from home better than making that 30 mile trip, but
I've got to admit that I believe that I was more productive and
focused--not to mention the impromtu white board brainstorming
sessions--when in the office.

the thing with that graph, lots of people got COVID during that time and were ill. Also sick days will be far less at home than in the office and lots of people often work extra hours at home, so productivity may well increase, need long term study of

it.

I agree that the graph is not definitive, and in fact I'm not even sure
how one might measure individual productivity in a really meaningful
way. I mentioned a "drop in productivity" and included a graph that
shows one, but the real indication that any given company might use is
any indication that their product is losing market share and/or not
meeting deadlines. There are a number of reasons for that, but one of
the possible ones is lack of corporate "synergy" that happens in a
face-to-face environment. I could easily see such a company deciding to  eliminate any policies that *might* have a negative effect on
competitiveness, and in-office work requirement would easy enough to do.
And if they're getting worried, it's a plausible first step.

I can clearly see that lower/mid management would tend to like it, for
the reasons gracchus mentioned, but bear in mind: it costs the company
*more* money to have the workers in the office, demonstrably. Rent/utilities/etc. are big costs that could be eliminated or greatly
reduced. Upper management and accounting would not want to incur these
costs just because lower/mid management martinets would be happy.

I'm saying that when a company that formerly had allowed the bulk of
work to be done remotely due to COVID--because it was either that or go under--now requires in-office attendance, they consciously have decided
that yep, that office building, the heat/cooling, the fuckin' coffee,
etc., are worth the expenditure in order to gain what they hope is a
more effective work environment that enhances the bottom line. And I'm
speaking mainly for stuff like engineering, not call centers-type activity.

This is a very interesting topic because it is a kind of a test of
whether workers can see beyond their own immediate desires--which is to
work from home mostly: I know the feeling because I had it as a perk for
2 days per week, but I objectively judged that I was a better worker in
the office, even though I basically sat in my cube and ground out
workload. The workers are not the ones who either know, or are
responsible for, the aggregate effectiveness of the company's output.
They only know if they are completing the stuff on their plate. That's
as far as they can see. The upper management/bean counters can see how
the company is doing, and must try to steer towards higher profits. If
they have reason to believe that this includes the added facility costs
so as to support an on-site workforce, that's their prerogative, I'd think.

What do you think, Ice?

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I done created myself a monster."

--Boxing trainer Pappy Gault, on George Foreman ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)