• ATP rankings suck

    From *skriptis@21:1/5 to All on Fri Sep 15 12:18:57 2023
    I will address COVID theft ongoing from 2020-2024 here, but that is not my main point as hopefully this thing is gone and will never happen again.

    However it's worth saying that we've been in sort of ilegal period and that the ilegal period will finally end once Indian Wells and Miami 2024 are completed and no one is banned from playing.

    It started in March 2020 when they froze rankings during Djokovic's #1 reign during lockdown period. They stole many weeks from him in that near 5-month period.

    It was highly immoral. Why freeze rankings simply because there are no tournaments? The situation in itself is no different that e.g. December when there's also no play, yet rankings keep going.

    ATP rankings are "best in the last 52" weeks and it should have been kept that way, tournaments or no tournaments. Players should have lost pts as the time progressed and the guy with most pts in the last 52 weeks is the #1. If everyone lose points, then
    there is no number 1. Simple.

    (This debate has been addressed several times before in different capacity, e.g. what if a player who secured year end #1 would suddenly die, do you remove him from the rankings and rob him of his weeks, year end and others achievements? My position is
    always, no. You don't have to play to be #1, you don't have to even be alive. You just have to have most pts in the last 52 weeks attached to your name.)

    So COVID freeze of the rankings was a criminal act in a way. I understand the problems with tournaments not being held, but if needed for entry purposes, they could have used last pre-COVID rankings as a supplement to ongoing "best of 52 weeks" rankings
    and not this mess with freezing then turning it into best od 104 weeks and so on.

    This mess ended sometime in cca 2022 (I think bizarrely, Federer carried parts of his 2019 Wimbledon pts all the way into 2022 season).


    But then another mess occurred. Countries such as USA and Australia interfering in goat chase, not honouring their own international sporting events and not providing exceptions for Djokovic, world class athlete.

    At the time, I wrote and I'll repeat, blackman Jesse Owens didn't even have US passport, yet Nazi Germany welcomed him on the basis of some Olympic pass, and they treated it as an official document to let him into Germany.

    Why? Because they were hosts of international sporting event and it's unthinkable to prevent foreign athletes from coming in order to boost chances of home players or some others. Or even advance your politics or ideology. Nazis supremacists could have
    rejected Blackman, but they didn't.

    Olympic charter was more important than race ideology for them. Not even Nazis would resort to putting politics over sports.

    Yet Biden did exactly that, he put COVID agenda over sport.


    For a mental gymnastics imagine if Phelps was banned from entering China ahead of 2008 Olympics on some political grounds?

    The situation is unfathomable and will stay remembered forever as a shame to Australia and America.

    Many in the world stage questioned should such ITF championships be held in those countries.


    And then even more bizarrely, for the reasons also out of Djokovic's control and not related to COVID hoax, and I will admit, this was not unfair to him personally, but to Russians and Belarusians, so Djokovic isn't wronged here, but it still ended up
    insane at his disadvantage, he got no pts for his 2022 Wimbledon.

    A messy period.


    This year he's been still banned by Biden in first half of the year, so he was forced to skip Indian Wells and Miami, losing a shot at 2000 pts which might cost him year-end #1 as well.

    But he was definitely robbed of 2021, I mean we are talking about potential 8000 pts plus Wimbledon's 2000 pts. Alcaraz's year end lead was cca 2000 pts.

    We'll see about this year.


    The ilegal period ends in April 2024, but other than almost certain year end #1 in 2022, Djokovic probably lost 50 or maybe up to 100 weeks.

    Absurd.

    Never again should this travesty occur.






    And now my main point.

    Grand Slam is the ultimate achievement. Such season ranks among the greatest seasons in all of sporting history, let alone tennis, but ATP rankings could have that person as #2 or worse? Haha.

    And what's worse, ATP invented their ATP player of the year award in 1975, to correct "faulty" rankings of that year, but they've de facto abolished the award since 2000, as they award it automatically to the guy who gets computer #1 rankings. So the
    award exists, but not really.

    I know ITF will get it properly as they're a committee. So was ATP Player of the Year, a committee.

    But should all be very simple to address even for computer rankings. Pts earned from winning 4 grand slam titles should outweigh someone else's near perfect season.

    So a player could have near perfect season, reach 4 slam finals, win 9 ATP 1000s, win YEC and another ATP 500s, five? That's cca 17800 pts. But if there's another guy with Grand Slam, then he's ahead.

    So a Grand Slam should be say 18000 pts to top this guy with 17800 pts, meaning 4500 pts per slam, assuming current system doesn't change a bit. The only change needed is for the slam wins to go up from 2000 to 4500.

    So that's how it should be as it protects the integrity and logic of the game. Grand Slam winner should get the computer #1 as a rule.

    Players with 3 slams doesn't have to have #1 guaranteed, but the one with 4, has to be guaranteed.


    It would also render unnecessary all those YEC requirements that slam winners must be in top 20 in order to qualify etc.

    With 4500 pts you're in top 20 anyway.


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  • From MBDunc@21:1/5 to All on Sat Sep 16 09:31:34 2023
    Atp rankings are OK. At least rules and point structures have been steady,

    This Djokovic issue is opposite similar to Graf issue 1988 when she won a minor tournament, but due divisor system her points decreased.

    Even super anomalies can occur: like Hingis got doubles GS 1998 with two partners (won AO.FO, Wimb, USO), yet it was Zvereva who was #1 with no slam titles.

    .mikko

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  • From *skriptis@21:1/5 to MBDunc on Sat Sep 16 18:42:58 2023
    MBDunc <michaelb@dnainternet.net> Wrote in message:r
    Atp rankings are OK. At least rules and point structures have been steady,This Djokovic issue is opposite similar to Graf issue 1988 when she won a minor tournament, but due divisor system her points decreased.Even super anomalies can occur: like
    Hingis got doubles GS 1998 with two partners (won AO.FO, Wimb, USO), yet it was Zvereva who was #1 with no slam titles..mikko



    Yet you started by saying rankings are OK?

    ;)


    No they're not OK.

    Look we could always debate if it's ok that a guy with 3 slams finishes as #2 and the guy with 1 slam gets #1. I guess it would be subjective and each case for itself.

    But I'm willing to say it's ok in theory, I won't push the idea that the guy with 3 slams must be #1 at all costs.


    But I am pushing and saying that rankings must, must reflect Grand Slam.

    If someone gets it, and wins 0 matches in the rest of the year, he has to be secured as number 1 in terms of points.

    It has to be mathematical certainty. That would make rankings credible.


    They really don't need to change a lot, leave everything as it is, but increase slam wins from 2000 pts to 4450 or 4500 to make it nice round number.





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  • From *skriptis@21:1/5 to pelle@svans.los on Sat Sep 16 18:54:42 2023
    Pelle Svanslös <pelle@svans.los> Wrote in message:r
    On 16.9.2023 19.42, *skriptis wrote:> They really don't need to change a lot, leave everything as it is, but increase slam wins from 2000 pts to 4450 or 4500 to make it nice round number.Yawn.-- "And off they went, from here to there,The bear, the bear,
    and the maiden fair"-- Traditional


    You don't believe in Grand Slam?


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  • From =?UTF-8?Q?Pelle_Svansl=c3=b6s?=@21:1/5 to All on Sat Sep 16 19:52:07 2023
    On 16.9.2023 19.42, *skriptis wrote:
    They really don't need to change a lot, leave everything as it is, but increase slam wins from 2000 pts to 4450 or 4500 to make it nice round number.

    Yawn.

    --
    "And off they went, from here to there,
    The bear, the bear, and the maiden fair"
    -- Traditional

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  • From MBDunc@21:1/5 to All on Sat Sep 16 11:52:51 2023
    On Saturday, September 16, 2023 at 7:42:58 PM UTC+3, *skriptis wrote:
    MBDunc <mich...@dnainternet.net> Wrote in message:r
    Atp rankings are OK. At least rules and point structures have been steady,This Djokovic issue is opposite similar to Graf issue 1988 when she won a minor tournament, but due divisor system her points decreased.Even super anomalies can occur: like
    Hingis got doubles GS 1998 with two partners (won AO.FO, Wimb, USO), yet it was Zvereva who was #1 with no slam titles..mikko



    Yet you started by saying rankings are OK?

    ;)


    No they're not OK.

    At least they are readable and understandable (which could not be said during divisor -system era)

    Loop holes exists but since somewhat same system has been in effect (1990 first, clarified 2000 as today) there have been
    minimal serious mismatches.

    .mikko

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  • From Whisper@21:1/5 to All on Sun Sep 17 19:56:31 2023
    On 17/09/2023 2:42 am, *skriptis wrote:
    MBDunc <michaelb@dnainternet.net> Wrote in message:r
    Atp rankings are OK. At least rules and point structures have been steady,This Djokovic issue is opposite similar to Graf issue 1988 when she won a minor tournament, but due divisor system her points decreased.Even super anomalies can occur: like
    Hingis got doubles GS 1998 with two partners (won AO.FO, Wimb, USO), yet it was Zvereva who was #1 with no slam titles..mikko



    Yet you started by saying rankings are OK?

    ;)


    No they're not OK.

    Look we could always debate if it's ok that a guy with 3 slams finishes as #2 and the guy with 1 slam gets #1. I guess it would be subjective and each case for itself.

    But I'm willing to say it's ok in theory, I won't push the idea that the guy with 3 slams must be #1 at all costs.


    But I am pushing and saying that rankings must, must reflect Grand Slam.

    If someone gets it, and wins 0 matches in the rest of the year, he has to be secured as number 1 in terms of points.

    It has to be mathematical certainty. That would make rankings credible.


    They really don't need to change a lot, leave everything as it is, but increase slam wins from 2000 pts to 4450 or 4500 to make it nice round number.







    Whoever wins most slams had the best year and should be no.1. No player
    would swap a year for one with less slams than he won to be no.1.

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  • From Ocean Naught@21:1/5 to All on Mon Sep 25 18:53:59 2023

    Whoever wins most slams had the best year and should be no.1. No player
    would swap a year for one with less slams than he won to be no.1.




    Yup.

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  • From MBDunc@21:1/5 to Ocean Naught on Tue Sep 26 06:43:25 2023
    On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 4:54:01 AM UTC+3, Ocean Naught wrote:

    Whoever wins most slams had the best year and should be no.1. No player would swap a year for one with less slams than he won to be no.1.
    Yup.

    There is one clear exception 2016.

    Murray #1 won Wimbledon, YEC, Olympic Gold
    Djokovic #2 won two slams: AO, FO

    I think everyone would take Murray's set?

    .mikko

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  • From Whisper@21:1/5 to MBDunc on Thu Sep 28 16:43:03 2023
    On 26/09/2023 11:43 pm, MBDunc wrote:
    On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 4:54:01 AM UTC+3, Ocean Naught wrote:

    Whoever wins most slams had the best year and should be no.1. No player
    would swap a year for one with less slams than he won to be no.1.
    Yup.

    There is one clear exception 2016.

    Murray #1 won Wimbledon, YEC, Olympic Gold
    Djokovic #2 won two slams: AO, FO

    I think everyone would take Murray's set?

    .mikko



    Yes I think so. That's an extreme example where 1 slam may be better
    than 2, if the 1 slam is Wimbledon and you have a gold medal on top.
    But in terms of the slam record I'd take the 2 slams if it secured me
    the slam king record.

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  • From MBDunc@21:1/5 to Whisper on Thu Sep 28 11:10:17 2023
    On Thursday, September 28, 2023 at 9:43:13 AM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:
    On 26/09/2023 11:43 pm, MBDunc wrote:
    On Tuesday, September 26, 2023 at 4:54:01 AM UTC+3, Ocean Naught wrote:

    Whoever wins most slams had the best year and should be no.1. No player >>> would swap a year for one with less slams than he won to be no.1.
    Yup.

    There is one clear exception 2016.

    Murray #1 won Wimbledon, YEC, Olympic Gold
    Djokovic #2 won two slams: AO, FO

    I think everyone would take Murray's set?

    .mikko

    Yes I think so. That's an extreme example where 1 slam may be better
    than 2, if the 1 slam is Wimbledon and you have a gold medal on top.
    But in terms of the slam record I'd take the 2 slams if it secured me
    the slam king record.

    I liked it when Murray did almost impossible 2nd half run for #1 2016.

    He deserved it,

    .mikko

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