https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/
On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:
https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/
What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated
period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get
more concentrated domination than that.
On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:
On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:
https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/
What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated
period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get
more concentrated domination than that.
At some point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count, domination records)
Now Fed has some 2nd tier records.
.mikko
On 17/06/2023 11:33 pm, stephenj wrote:> On 6/15/2023 8:43 AM, MBDunc wrote:>> On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:>>> On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:>>>> https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/>>count, YEC count, >> domination records)>>>> Now Fed has some 2nd tier records.>>>> .mikko> > Fans can have a tough time letting go and we know Fed inspired a huge > fan base. E.g. we see that with some die-hard Graf fan holdouts once > Serena passed her,
What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated>>> period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get>>> more concentrated domination than that.>>>> At some point Fed had some definite records (slam
On 6/15/2023 8:43 AM, MBDunc wrote:
On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:
On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:
https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/
What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated
period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get
more concentrated domination than that.
At some point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count,
domination records)
Now Fed has some 2nd tier records.
.mikko
Fans can have a tough time letting go and we know Fed inspired a huge
fan base. E.g. we see that with some die-hard Graf fan holdouts once
Serena passed her, etc. It happens in a lot of sports too. A new dynasty surpasses as an older one and fans of the older one cling to it anyway,
etc.
I've never been a Joker fan, but 23 > 22 > 20. Fed is #3 on the Open Era
GOAT list, IMO.
On 6/15/2023 8:43 AM, MBDunc wrote:
On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:
On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:
https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/
What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated
period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get
more concentrated domination than that.
At some point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count,
domination records)
Now Fed has some 2nd tier records.
.mikko
Fans can have a tough time letting go and we know Fed inspired a huge
fan base. E.g. we see that with some die-hard Graf fan holdouts once
Serena passed her, etc. It happens in a lot of sports too. A new dynasty surpasses as an older one and fans of the older one cling to it anyway,
etc.
I've never been a Joker fan, but 23 > 22 > 20. Fed is #3 on the Open Era
GOAT list, IMO.
On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:> On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote: > > https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/ > > > > > > > > > What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in aconcentrated > period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get > more concentrated domination than that.At some point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count, domination records)Now Fed has some 2nd tier records. .mikko
On 6/15/2023 8:43 AM, MBDunc wrote:
On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:
On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:
https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/
What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated
period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get
more concentrated domination than that.
At some point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count, domination records)
Now Fed has some 2nd tier records.
.mikkoFans can have a tough time letting go and we know Fed inspired a huge
fan base. E.g. we see that with some die-hard Graf fan holdouts once
Serena passed her, etc. It happens in a lot of sports too. A new dynasty surpasses as an older one and fans of the older one cling to it anyway, etc.
I've never been a Joker fan, but 23 > 22 > 20. Fed is #3 on the Open Era GOAT list, IMO.
On 17/06/2023 11:33 pm, stephenj wrote:
On 6/15/2023 8:43 AM, MBDunc wrote:
On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:
On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:
https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/
What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated
period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get
more concentrated domination than that.
At some point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count,
domination records)
Now Fed has some 2nd tier records.
.mikko
Fans can have a tough time letting go and we know Fed inspired a huge
fan base. E.g. we see that with some die-hard Graf fan holdouts once Serena passed her, etc. It happens in a lot of sports too. A new dynasty surpasses as an older one and fans of the older one cling to it anyway, etc.
I've never been a Joker fan, but 23 > 22 > 20. Fed is #3 on the Open Era GOAT list, IMO.
It's been officially confirmed Rod Laver is the best tennis player of
all time and Steffi Graf is the best female player ever, but 2nd to
Laver overall who is apparently 'off the charts' ahead of everyone else. Graf is about 20% ahead of all other female players but Laver is like
80% ahead of everyone;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLJyY2VAVTg
Novak may be a bit higher now but it seems nobody can catch Laver?
It kinda makes sense because Laver won 200 titles overall, 2 or even 3 calendar slams depending how you count them, had winning h2h over
everybody, in 1969 won calendar slams including 17 singles and 17
doubles titles etc.
He has Serena at no.6 because she was pretty ordinary outside the slams,
eg won only 73 titles overall compared to Margaret Court 192,
Navratilova 167, Evert 157 etc. He also says Graf played in the
toughest era while Serena/Martina/Evert had it pretty easy with
lightweight competition.
MBDunc <mich...@dnainternet.net> Wrote in message:rconcentrated > period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get > more concentrated domination than that.At some point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count, domination records)Now Fed has some 2nd tier records. .mikko
On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:> On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote: > > https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/ > > > > > > > > > What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a
Tier 2 records? lol
You must be the most knowledgeable tennis expert or the best in your math classes :)
On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 9:33:54 AM UTC-4, stephenj wrote:
On 6/15/2023 8:43 AM, MBDunc wrote:
On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:
On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:
https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/
What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated
period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get
more concentrated domination than that.
At some point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count, domination records)
Now Fed has some 2nd tier records.
.mikkoFans can have a tough time letting go and we know Fed inspired a huge
fan base. E.g. we see that with some die-hard Graf fan holdouts once Serena passed her, etc. It happens in a lot of sports too. A new dynasty surpasses as an older one and fans of the older one cling to it anyway, etc.
I've never been a Joker fan, but 23 > 22 > 20. Fed is #3 on the Open Era GOAT list, IMO.For me, it's:
1) Djokovic
2) Federer
3) Nadal(he just doesn't have the versatility of the other two and his weeks at number one is the other reason I can't put him above Federer despite having one more slam.)
Court_1 <olymp...@yahoo.com> Wrote in message:rtennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/ > > > > > > > > > What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated > period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get > more concentrated domination than that.At some
On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 12:25:47 PM UTC-4, PeteWasLucky wrote:> MBDunc <mich...@dnainternet.net> Wrote in message:r > > On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:> On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote: > > https://www.
If Federer is tier 2, Sampras must be tier 4.
It's funny, Sampras played his career to break 12 slams, Federer played most of his career to break Sampras record and what came after the 15th slam was bonus, while Nadal and Djokovic had their eyes on Federer all the time growing up.
On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 12:25:47PM UTC-4, PeteWasLucky wrote:> MBDunc <mich...@dnainternet.net> Wrote in message:r > > On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:> On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote: > > https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/ > > > > > > > > > What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated > period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get > more concentrated domination than that.At some
On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 12:25:47 PM UTC-4, PeteWasLucky wrote:concentrated > period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get > more concentrated domination than that.At some point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count, domination records)Now Fed has some 2nd tier records. .mikko
MBDunc Wrote in message:r
On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:> On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote: > > https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/ > > > > > > > > > What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a
Tier 2 records? lol
You must be the most knowledgeable tennis expert or the best in your math classes :)Yeah, I'm not sure anybody can call Federer's records "tier 2!"
However, if we're being honest, Djokovic is probably in a class by himself right now. So it would be:
1) Djokovic
1a) Federer, Nadal.
2) Sampras, etc.
On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 9:33:54 AM UTC-4, stephenj wrote:
On 6/15/2023 8:43 AM, MBDunc wrote:
On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:Fans can have a tough time letting go and we know Fed inspired a huge
On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:
https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/
What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated
period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get
more concentrated domination than that.
At some point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count, domination records)
Now Fed has some 2nd tier records.
.mikko
fan base. E.g. we see that with some die-hard Graf fan holdouts once
Serena passed her, etc. It happens in a lot of sports too. A new dynasty
surpasses as an older one and fans of the older one cling to it anyway, etc. >>
I've never been a Joker fan, but 23 > 22 > 20. Fed is #3 on the Open Era
GOAT list, IMO.
For me, it's:
1) Djokovic
2) Federer
3) Nadal(he just doesn't have the versatility of the other two and his weeks at number one is the other reason I can't put him above Federer despite having one more slam.)
Court_1 <olympia0000@yahoo.com> Wrote in message:rtennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/ > > > > > > > > > What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated > period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get > more concentrated domination than that.At some
On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 12:25:47PM UTC-4, PeteWasLucky wrote:> MBDunc <mich...@dnainternet.net> Wrote in message:r > > On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:> On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote: > > https://www.
If Federer is tier 2, Sampras must be tier 4.
It's funny, Sampras played his career to break 12 slams, Federer played most of his career to break Sampras record and what came after the 15th slam was bonus, while Nadal and Djokovic had their eyes on Federer all the time growing up.
On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 10:57:47 AM UTC-4, Whisper wrote:technology, better drugs, different surfaces, etc.) Do you think Laver would be able to do what he did pre-Open Era in the tennis world of today? Come on!
On 17/06/2023 11:33 pm, stephenj wrote:
On 6/15/2023 8:43 AM, MBDunc wrote:It's been officially confirmed Rod Laver is the best tennis player of
On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:
On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:
https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/
What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated
period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get
more concentrated domination than that.
At some point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count,
domination records)
Now Fed has some 2nd tier records.
.mikko
Fans can have a tough time letting go and we know Fed inspired a huge
fan base. E.g. we see that with some die-hard Graf fan holdouts once
Serena passed her, etc. It happens in a lot of sports too. A new dynasty >>> surpasses as an older one and fans of the older one cling to it anyway,
etc.
I've never been a Joker fan, but 23 > 22 > 20. Fed is #3 on the Open Era >>> GOAT list, IMO.
all time and Steffi Graf is the best female player ever, but 2nd to
Laver overall who is apparently 'off the charts' ahead of everyone else.
Graf is about 20% ahead of all other female players but Laver is like
80% ahead of everyone;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLJyY2VAVTg
Novak may be a bit higher now but it seems nobody can catch Laver?
It kinda makes sense because Laver won 200 titles overall, 2 or even 3
calendar slams depending how you count them, had winning h2h over
everybody, in 1969 won calendar slams including 17 singles and 17
doubles titles etc.
He has Serena at no.6 because she was pretty ordinary outside the slams,
eg won only 73 titles overall compared to Margaret Court 192,
Navratilova 167, Evert 157 etc. He also says Graf played in the
toughest era while Serena/Martina/Evert had it pretty easy with
lightweight competition.
Officially confirmed that Laver is the best tennis player of all time? LOL, by whom? Laver isn't a better tennis player than Djokovic, Federer, Nadal. You can't compare past players with current ones due to a million different things(fitness, racket
As for Graf vs Serena, I didn't like either so I don't care. Let their nutty fans bicker about it. There's no right answer IMO. It's not as clear cut to me as the men's side is. I can see arguments for both. It's close.
On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 3:45:00 AM UTC+3, Court_1 wrote:concentrated > period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get > more concentrated domination than that.At some point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count, domination records)Now Fed has some 2nd tier records. .mikko
On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 12:25:47 PM UTC-4, PeteWasLucky wrote:
MBDunc Wrote in message:r
On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:> On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote: > > https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/ > > > > > > > > > What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a
Yeah, I'm not sure anybody can call Federer's records "tier 2!"
Tier 2 records? lol
You must be the most knowledgeable tennis expert or the best in your math classes :)
However, if we're being honest, Djokovic is probably in a class by himself right now. So it would be:
1) Djokovic
1a) Federer, Nadal.
2) Sampras, etc.
This was more I meant.
Of course Fed has tons of records. But the most important absolute records he has slowly lost.
.mikko
On 18/06/2023 11:00 am, PeteWasLucky wrote:
Court_1 <olympia0000@yahoo.com> Wrote in message:r
On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 12:25:47PM UTC-4, PeteWasLucky wrote:>
MBDunc <mich...@dnainternet.net> Wrote in message:r > > On Thursday,
June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:> On 15/06/2023 5:51
pm, *skriptis wrote: > >
https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/ > > > >
concentrated > period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the sameWhat's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a
time? Can't get > more concentrated domination than that.At some
point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count,
domination records)Now Fed has some 2nd tier records. .mikko > > Tier
2 records? lol > > You must be the most knowledgeable tennis expert
or the best in your math classes :)Yeah, I'm not sure anybody can
call Federer's records "tier 2!"However, if we're being honest,
Djokovic is probably in a class by himself right now. So it would
be:1) Djokovic1a) Federer, Nadal. 2) Sampras, etc.
If Federer is tier 2, Sampras must be tier 4.
It's funny, Sampras played his career to break 12 slams, Federer
played most of his career to break Sampras record and what came after
the 15th slam was bonus, while Nadal and Djokovic had their eyes on
Federer all the time growing up.
It's always a bit easier for the chasers as they have a tangible target that's very real and not a hypothetical future possibility. Sampras wouldn't have felt aimless and retired young if he was still chasing a
real target.
On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 9:33:54 AM UTC-4, stephenj wrote:
On 6/15/2023 8:43 AM, MBDunc wrote:
On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:Fans can have a tough time letting go and we know Fed inspired a huge
On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:
https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/
What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated
period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get
more concentrated domination than that.
At some point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count, domination records)
Now Fed has some 2nd tier records.
.mikko
fan base. E.g. we see that with some die-hard Graf fan holdouts once
Serena passed her, etc. It happens in a lot of sports too. A new dynasty
surpasses as an older one and fans of the older one cling to it anyway, etc. >>
I've never been a Joker fan, but 23 > 22 > 20. Fed is #3 on the Open Era
GOAT list, IMO.
For me, it's:
1) Djokovic
2) Federer
3) Nadal(he just doesn't have the versatility of the other two and his weeks at number one is the other reason I can't put him above Federer despite having one more slam.)
On 6/17/2023 7:31 PM, Court_1 wrote:> On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 9:33:54AM UTC-4, stephenj wrote:>> On 6/15/2023 8:43 AM, MBDunc wrote:>>> On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:>>>> On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:>>>>domination than that.>>>>>> At some point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count, domination records)>>>>>> Now Fed has some 2nd tier records.>>>>>> .mikko>> Fans can have a tough time letting go and we know Fed inspired a huge>> fan base.
https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated>>>> period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get>>>> more concentrated
On 18/06/2023 10:31 am, Court_1 wrote:
On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 9:33:54 AM UTC-4, stephenj wrote:
On 6/15/2023 8:43 AM, MBDunc wrote:
On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:Fans can have a tough time letting go and we know Fed inspired a huge
On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:
https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/
What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated >>>> period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get
more concentrated domination than that.
At some point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count, domination records)
Now Fed has some 2nd tier records.
.mikko
fan base. E.g. we see that with some die-hard Graf fan holdouts once
Serena passed her, etc. It happens in a lot of sports too. A new dynasty >> surpasses as an older one and fans of the older one cling to it anyway, etc.
I've never been a Joker fan, but 23 > 22 > 20. Fed is #3 on the Open Era >> GOAT list, IMO.
For me, it's:
1) Djokovic
2) Federer
3) Nadal(he just doesn't have the versatility of the other two and his weeks at number one is the other reason I can't put him above Federer despite having one more slam.)
Nadal has 2 more slams, has won each slam multiple times Fed only once, winning h2h v Fed. The 14 FO wins is arguably the greatest achievement
in all sport not just tennis. Fed doesn't have anything comparable.
On 6/17/2023 7:31 PM, Court_1 wrote:
On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 9:33:54 AM UTC-4, stephenj wrote:
On 6/15/2023 8:43 AM, MBDunc wrote:
On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:Fans can have a tough time letting go and we know Fed inspired a huge
On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:
https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/
What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated >>>> period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get
more concentrated domination than that.
At some point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count, domination records)
Now Fed has some 2nd tier records.
.mikko
fan base. E.g. we see that with some die-hard Graf fan holdouts once
Serena passed her, etc. It happens in a lot of sports too. A new dynasty >> surpasses as an older one and fans of the older one cling to it anyway, etc.
I've never been a Joker fan, but 23 > 22 > 20. Fed is #3 on the Open Era >> GOAT list, IMO.
For me, it's:
1) Djokovic
2) Federer
3) Nadal(he just doesn't have the versatility of the other two and his weeks at number one is the other reason I can't put him above Federer despite having one more slam.)
My sentiment is with you, I prefer Federer over Nadal for the same reason.
Heck IIRC Whisper's 7543, which I greatly admire and think is very
accurate, has Federer > Nadal. I like Fed's 8 Ws more than Nadal's 14
FOs, even though the latter is the more mind-boggling achievement. An achievement can be mind-boggling but not better/greater. W is just
better than the FO, IMO.
But FWIW, my personal view aside, I think the "tennis consensus" has
Nadal ahead of Fed, because IMO we have moved to a 1/1/1/1 world, where
all slams are equal and it's just whoever has the most of them.
On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 4:24:25 AM UTC-4, Whisper wrote:
On 18/06/2023 10:31 am, Court_1 wrote:
On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 9:33:54 AM UTC-4, stephenj wrote:
On 6/15/2023 8:43 AM, MBDunc wrote:
On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:Fans can have a tough time letting go and we know Fed inspired a huge
On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:
https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/
What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated >>>>>> period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get >>>>>> more concentrated domination than that.
At some point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count, domination records)
Now Fed has some 2nd tier records.
.mikko
fan base. E.g. we see that with some die-hard Graf fan holdouts once
Serena passed her, etc. It happens in a lot of sports too. A new dynasty >>>> surpasses as an older one and fans of the older one cling to it anyway, etc.
I've never been a Joker fan, but 23 > 22 > 20. Fed is #3 on the Open Era >>>> GOAT list, IMO.
For me, it's:
1) Djokovic
2) Federer
3) Nadal(he just doesn't have the versatility of the other two and his weeks at number one is the other reason I can't put him above Federer despite having one more slam.)
Nadal has 2 more slams, has won each slam multiple times Fed only once,
winning h2h v Fed. The 14 FO wins is arguably the greatest achievement
in all sport not just tennis. Fed doesn't have anything comparable.
Not in my opinion. Nadal's slam record is too skewed towards clay.
Djokovic and Federer are better all-surface players IMO. Also, as I said above, Nadal's weeks at number one(which is the second most important record in tennis) is too far >below Fedovic's numbers.
As for the h2h between Nadal-Federer, had Federer not turned that h2h around somewhat in his later years, I would have agreed with you but Federer was owning Nadal badly at the end off clay.
Opinion is divided as to which player is second and third between Federer and Nadal but for me Federer is 2 and Nadal is 3 for the reasons mentioned above.
On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 1:08:21 PM UTC-4, stephenj wrote:
On 6/17/2023 7:31 PM, Court_1 wrote:
On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 9:33:54 AM UTC-4, stephenj wrote:My sentiment is with you, I prefer Federer over Nadal for the same reason. >>
On 6/15/2023 8:43 AM, MBDunc wrote:
On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:Fans can have a tough time letting go and we know Fed inspired a huge
On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:
https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/
What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated >>>>>> period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get >>>>>> more concentrated domination than that.
At some point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count, domination records)
Now Fed has some 2nd tier records.
.mikko
fan base. E.g. we see that with some die-hard Graf fan holdouts once
Serena passed her, etc. It happens in a lot of sports too. A new dynasty >>>> surpasses as an older one and fans of the older one cling to it anyway, etc.
I've never been a Joker fan, but 23 > 22 > 20. Fed is #3 on the Open Era >>>> GOAT list, IMO.
For me, it's:
1) Djokovic
2) Federer
3) Nadal(he just doesn't have the versatility of the other two and his weeks at number one is the other reason I can't put him above Federer despite having one more slam.)
Heck IIRC Whisper's 7543, which I greatly admire and think is very
accurate, has Federer > Nadal. I like Fed's 8 Ws more than Nadal's 14
FOs, even though the latter is the more mind-boggling achievement. An
achievement can be mind-boggling but not better/greater. W is just
better than the FO, IMO.
But FWIW, my personal view aside, I think the "tennis consensus" has
Nadal ahead of Fed, because IMO we have moved to a 1/1/1/1 world, where
all slams are equal and it's just whoever has the most of them.
From what I've seen, the opinion is divided with respect to Federer and Nadal.
At the end of the day, they're both legends so does it really matter? Ha, ha. You have the fanatics arguing within an inch of their lives about the Big Three and which one did this or that. Most are a bunch of loons.
If you put the names of Federer, Djokovic,, and Nadal in a hat and ask most people in the world to blindly pick out one name and whichever name they pick, that's the career they would have. Who wouldn't take that deal?
On 6/19/2023 5:17 AM, Whisper wrote:domination than that.>>>>>> At some point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count, domination records)>>>>>> Now Fed has some 2nd tier records.>>>>>> .mikko>> Fans can have a tough time letting go and we know Fed inspired a huge>> fan base.
On 19/06/2023 12:56 pm, PeteWasLucky wrote:
stephenj <sj...@pr.net> Wrote in message:r
On 6/17/2023 7:31 PM, Court_1 wrote:> On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at
9:33:54 AM UTC-4, stephenj wrote:>> On 6/15/2023 8:43 AM, MBDunc
wrote:>>> On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper
wrote:>>>> On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:>>>>>
https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated>>>> period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get>>>> more concentrated
I am a Federer fan, but I think Nadal's 14 or 15 FO titles are crazy
and will never be matched.
Of course Federer did well in Wimbledon but changing the grass broke
his edge over others on that surface, while Nadal enjoyed his
domination on his unique surface.
Also, had he switched to the bigger frame earlier in his career he
would have had added many more slams.
This is my opinion, people can definitely disagree.
It's not Roger's game or talents that were lacking, just mentally he wasn't as great as Novak/Rafa. That counts just as much if not more.I agree with that. Heck, I don't think I will ever understand how Fed
lost the 2019 W final to Joker, with two match points on his own serve.
That IMO is just a mental failing at the biggest moment, and it has had
huge legacy implications.
On 6/19/2023 5:17 AM, Whisper wrote:> On 19/06/2023 12:56 pm, PeteWasLucky wrote:>> stephenj <sjork@pr.net> Wrote in message:r>>> On 6/17/2023 7:31 PM, Court_1 wrote:> On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at >>> 9:33:54AM UTC-4, stephenj wrote:>> On 6/15/2023 8:43 AM, MBDunc >>> wrote:>>> On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04PM UTC+3, Whisper >>> wrote:>>>> On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:>>>>> >>> https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What's his
stephenj <sj...@pr.net> Wrote in message:r8:43 AM, MBDunc >>> wrote:>>> On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper >>> wrote:>>>> On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:>>>>> >>> https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What's his
On 6/19/2023 5:17 AM, Whisper wrote:> On 19/06/2023 12:56 pm, PeteWasLucky wrote:>> stephenj <sj...@pr.net> Wrote in message:r>>> On 6/17/2023 7:31 PM, Court_1 wrote:> On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at >>> 9:33:54 AM UTC-4, stephenj wrote:>> On 6/15/2023
on his unique surface.>>>> Also, had he switched to the bigger frame earlier in his career he >> would have had added many more slams.>>>> This is my opinion, people can definitely disagree.>>>>> > > It's not Roger's game or talents that were lacking,I am a Federer fan, but I think Nadal's 14 or 15 FO titles are crazy >> and will never be matched.>> Of course Federer did well in Wimbledon but changing the grass broke >> his edge over others on that surface, while Nadal enjoyed his >> domination
I doubt it, Djokovic is mentally tough but Federer didn't collapse it that match either.
In fact, Djokovic broke first in the fifth and then Federer came back.
Should that be a choke per definition?
Djokovic led with a break and didn't finish it?
What kind of mental strength is that?
He'd be a laughing stock had he not won it in the end?
I wouldn't think about that a lot, players get broken, period. I wish I could praise Djokovic but in fact, Federer humiliated Djokovic by making it this close. It was dead even.
The thing is, I'd say it was all about backhand.
Federer's backhand was a main liability throughout his career and in that particular match as well, allowing Djokovic to return better, to hit harder and everything else. You can't stress that enough. It's simply a superior shot.
One handed backhand is well, problematic, despite the fact we all like it.
The other thing is psychology but I wouldn't say it's mental strength, it's character. Federer kinda choked the tiebreak but he knew Djokovic is more solid and will not make as many UEs.
It's just psychology.
In tiebreaker, you get nervous and the tendency is to play safe.
It's easier for retriever and counterpuncher to play safe, it's just his nature, and Djokovic is excellent at it.
OTOH the attacking players are asked to step up, fight against their nerves, do the opposite from "play it safe" and are supposed to go for broke in such moments, and guys like Sampras go for broke in such moments.
It's a lot harder.
You've got to admire that.
Guys like Federer, "fake" attackers, they do neither really. At least not at that high level.
So the tiebreak and their close matches imo are not testimony to Djokovic greatness, rather Federer's lack of offensive mindset.
It's one thing to toy with Hewitt, or Roddick, but go ahead, hit winners in tiebreak vs Nadal or Djokovic.
I know Sampras would, at least he'd try.
It's what I always felt about Federer and the reason why I was never in awe with his brand of tennis, from day 1.
He's an "impostor" as an offensive player.
I prefer attackers, but I also prefer genuine counterpunchers to fake attackers.
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On 19/06/2023 3:07 pm, Court_1 wrote:
On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 4:24:25 AM UTC-4, Whisper wrote:
On 18/06/2023 10:31 am, Court_1 wrote:
On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 9:33:54 AM UTC-4, stephenj wrote:
On 6/15/2023 8:43 AM, MBDunc wrote:
On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote: >>>>>> On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:Fans can have a tough time letting go and we know Fed inspired a huge >>>> fan base. E.g. we see that with some die-hard Graf fan holdouts once >>>> Serena passed her, etc. It happens in a lot of sports too. A new dynasty
https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/
What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated >>>>>> period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get >>>>>> more concentrated domination than that.
At some point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count, domination records)
Now Fed has some 2nd tier records.
.mikko
surpasses as an older one and fans of the older one cling to it anyway, etc.
I've never been a Joker fan, but 23 > 22 > 20. Fed is #3 on the Open Era
GOAT list, IMO.
For me, it's:
1) Djokovic
2) Federer
3) Nadal(he just doesn't have the versatility of the other two and his weeks at number one is the other reason I can't put him above Federer despite having one more slam.)
Nadal has 2 more slams, has won each slam multiple times Fed only once, >> winning h2h v Fed. The 14 FO wins is arguably the greatest achievement
in all sport not just tennis. Fed doesn't have anything comparable.
Not in my opinion. Nadal's slam record is too skewed towards clay.That's like saying Bolt/Phelps records are too skewed to gold medals and world records.
Djokovic and Federer are better all-surface players IMO. Also, as I said above, Nadal's weeks at number one(which is the second most important record in tennis) is too far >below Fedovic's numbers.I believe Nadal holds the all time record for ranking in top 2? Top 10
he's nearly at 1,000 consecutive weeks.
As for the h2h between Nadal-Federer, had Federer not turned that h2h around somewhat in his later years, I would have agreed with you but Federer was owning Nadal badly at the end off clay.
Opinion is divided as to which player is second and third between Federer and Nadal but for me Federer is 2 and Nadal is 3 for the reasons mentioned above.Once Novak wins 8th Wimbledon there will be nothing unique to identify
with Federer. Nadal will always have the best FO record. It really is
the safest record in tennis, if not all sports. That means people will
talk about you forever.
I doubt it, Djokovic is mentally tough but Federer didn't collapse it that match either.
In fact, Djokovic broke first in the fifth and then Federer came back.
Should that be a choke per definition?
Djokovic led with a break and didn't finish it?
What kind of mental strength is that?
He'd be a laughing stock had he not won it in the end?
I wouldn't think about that a lot, players get broken, period. I wish I could praise Djokovic but in fact, Federer humiliated Djokovic by making it this close. It was dead even.
The thing is, I'd say it was all about backhand.
Federer's backhand was a main liability throughout his career and in that particular match as well, allowing Djokovic to return better, to hit harder and everything else. You can't stress that enough. It's simply a superior shot.
One handed backhand is well, problematic, despite the fact we all like it.
The other thing is psychology but I wouldn't say it's mental strength, it's character. Federer kinda choked the tiebreak but he knew Djokovic is more solid and will not make as many UEs.
It's just psychology.
In tiebreaker, you get nervous and the tendency is to play safe.
It's easier for retriever and counterpuncher to play safe, it's just his nature, and Djokovic is excellent at it.
OTOH the attacking players are asked to step up, fight against their nerves, do the opposite from "play it safe" and are supposed to go for broke in such moments, and guys like Sampras go for broke in such moments.
It's a lot harder.
You've got to admire that.
Guys like Federer, "fake" attackers, they do neither really. At least not at that high level.
So the tiebreak and their close matches imo are not testimony to Djokovic greatness, rather Federer's lack of offensive mindset.
It's one thing to toy with Hewitt, or Roddick, but go ahead, hit winners in tiebreak vs Nadal or Djokovic.
I know Sampras would, at least he'd try.
It's what I always felt about Federer and the reason why I was never in awe with his brand of tennis, from day 1.
He's an "impostor" as an offensive player.
I prefer attackers, but I also prefer genuine counterpunchers to fake attackers.
--
On 19/06/2023 12:56 pm, PeteWasLucky wrote:domination than that.>>>>>> At some point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count, domination records)>>>>>> Now Fed has some 2nd tier records.>>>>>> .mikko>> Fans can have a tough time letting go and we know Fed inspired a huge>> fan base.
stephenj <sj...@pr.net> Wrote in message:r
On 6/17/2023 7:31 PM, Court_1 wrote:> On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 9:33:54 AM UTC-4, stephenj wrote:>> On 6/15/2023 8:43 AM, MBDunc wrote:>>> On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote:>>>> On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:>
https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated>>>> period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get>>>> more concentrated
I am a Federer fan, but I think Nadal's 14 or 15 FO titles are crazy and will never be matched.
Of course Federer did well in Wimbledon but changing the grass broke his edge over others on that surface, while Nadal enjoyed his domination on his unique surface.
Also, had he switched to the bigger frame earlier in his career he would have had added many more slams.
This is my opinion, people can definitely disagree.
It's not Roger's game or talents that were lacking, just mentally he
wasn't as great as Novak/Rafa. That counts just as much if not more.
Excellent points. This is something I have pointed out before too. In fact, I think I think it's Fed's "real" mindset that's a bigger issue than his BH. He has a great 1HBH. Overall, like Pelle, I would probably choose his 1HBH.
But his fail-safe mentality in a life or death situation prevents him from going for cold winners on the BH side. Fed has a great attacking game, but, in a do or die situation, he reveals that he's actually not a genuine attacker - a la Sampras orEdberg.
On 19/06/2023 3:07 pm, Court_1 wrote:
On Sunday, June 18, 2023 at 4:24:25 AM UTC-4, Whisper wrote:
On 18/06/2023 10:31 am, Court_1 wrote:
On Saturday, June 17, 2023 at 9:33:54 AM UTC-4, stephenj wrote:
On 6/15/2023 8:43 AM, MBDunc wrote:
On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04 PM UTC+3, Whisper wrote: >>>>>> On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:Fans can have a tough time letting go and we know Fed inspired a huge >>>> fan base. E.g. we see that with some die-hard Graf fan holdouts once >>>> Serena passed her, etc. It happens in a lot of sports too. A new dynasty
https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/
What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a concentrated >>>>>> period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the same time? Can't get >>>>>> more concentrated domination than that.
At some point Fed had some definite records (slam count, YEC count, domination records)
Now Fed has some 2nd tier records.
.mikko
surpasses as an older one and fans of the older one cling to it anyway, etc.
I've never been a Joker fan, but 23 > 22 > 20. Fed is #3 on the Open Era
GOAT list, IMO.
For me, it's:
1) Djokovic
2) Federer
3) Nadal(he just doesn't have the versatility of the other two and his weeks at number one is the other reason I can't put him above Federer despite having one more slam.)
Nadal has 2 more slams, has won each slam multiple times Fed only once, >> winning h2h v Fed. The 14 FO wins is arguably the greatest achievement
in all sport not just tennis. Fed doesn't have anything comparable.
Not in my opinion. Nadal's slam record is too skewed towards clay.That's like saying Bolt/Phelps records are too skewed to gold medals and world records.
Djokovic and Federer are better all-surface players IMO. Also, as I said above, Nadal's weeks at number one(which is the second most important record in tennis) is too far >below Fedovic's numbers.I believe Nadal holds the all time record for ranking in top 2? Top 10
he's nearly at 1,000 consecutive weeks.
As for the h2h between Nadal-Federer, had Federer not turned that h2h around somewhat in his later years, I would have agreed with you but Federer was owning Nadal badly at the end off clay.
Opinion is divided as to which player is second and third between Federer and Nadal but for me Federer is 2 and Nadal is 3 for the reasons mentioned above.Once Novak wins 8th Wimbledon there will be nothing unique to identify
with Federer. Nadal will always have the best FO record. It really is
the safest record in tennis, if not all sports. That means people will
talk about you forever.
On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 2:31:39 PM UTC-4, Shakes wrote:
Edberg.But his fail-safe mentality in a life or death situation prevents him from going for cold winners on the BH side. Fed has a great attacking game, but, in a do or die situation, he reveals that he's actually not a genuine attacker - a la Sampras or
Always have to bring up Chimpras, huh? Your "hero!" How sweet!
Probably have to give Novak credit for being a mental beast. It's not normal what he does out there. I can't explain it and I doubt Novak could either. 'just concentrate and don't make errors on the big points' doesn't explain it. Everyone would doit if it was simple.
Whisper <whisper@ozemail.com.au> Wrote in message:do it if it was simple.
Probably have to give Novak credit for being a mental beast. It's not normal what he does out there. I can't explain it and I doubt Novak could either. 'just concentrate and don't make errors on the big points' doesn't explain it. Everyone would
But there's a philosophical dilema.
Since he's so successful at it, why doesn't Djokovic do it all the time?
He'd win matches a lot easier, not having to go through tiebreaks in the first place?
😁
On Monday, June 19, 2023 at 6:23:04 AM UTC-4, Whisper wrote:We'll have to agree to disagree.
On 19/06/2023 3:07 pm, Court_1 wrote:
That's like saying Bolt/Phelps records are too skewed to gold medals and
Nadal has 2 more slams, has won each slam multiple times Fed only once, >>>> winning h2h v Fed. The 14 FO wins is arguably the greatest achievement >>>> in all sport not just tennis. Fed doesn't have anything comparable.
Not in my opinion. Nadal's slam record is too skewed towards clay.
world records.
Djokovic and Federer are better all-surface players IMO. Also, as I said above, Nadal's weeks at number one(which is the second most important record in tennis) is too far >below Fedovic's numbers.I believe Nadal holds the all time record for ranking in top 2? Top 10
he's nearly at 1,000 consecutive weeks.
Once Novak wins 8th Wimbledon there will be nothing unique to identify
As for the h2h between Nadal-Federer, had Federer not turned that h2h around somewhat in his later years, I would have agreed with you but Federer was owning Nadal badly at the end off clay.
Opinion is divided as to which player is second and third between Federer and Nadal but for me Federer is 2 and Nadal is 3 for the reasons mentioned above.
with Federer. Nadal will always have the best FO record. It really is
the safest record in tennis, if not all sports. That means people will
talk about you forever.
Federer will be talked about "forever", don't worry. He's the most beloved of the Big Three and had the older school game that people were mesmerized with. He'll always be one of the greatest of all time(top three for now.) For me, he's ahead of Nadal.
As soon as Djokovic and Nadal retire, people will move on. Young people already think Federer, Nadal, Djokovic are ancient. They are into the here and now. That's life.
On 20/06/2023 12:31 am, stephenj wrote:
On 6/19/2023 5:17 AM, Whisper wrote:
On 19/06/2023 12:56 pm, PeteWasLucky wrote:
stephenj <sjork@pr.net> Wrote in message:r
On 6/17/2023 7:31 PM, Court_1 wrote:> On Saturday, June 17, 2023
at 9:33:54AM UTC-4, stephenj wrote:>> On 6/15/2023 8:43 AM,
MBDunc wrote:>>> On Thursday, June 15, 2023 at 3:14:04PM UTC+3,
Whisper wrote:>>>> On 15/06/2023 5:51 pm, *skriptis wrote:>>>>>
https://www.tennis365.com/tennis-news/djokovic-federer-goat/>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
What's his argument for Federer, that he won more in a
concentrated>>>> period? Didn't Djoker hold all 4 slams at the
same time? Can't get>>>> more concentrated domination than
that.>>>>>> At some point Fed had some definite records (slam
count, YEC count, domination records)>>>>>> Now Fed has some 2nd
tier records.>>>>>> .mikko>> Fans can have a tough time letting go
and we know Fed inspired a huge>> fan base. E.g. we see that with
some die-hard Graf fan holdouts once>> Serena passed her, etc. It
happens in a lot of sports too. A new dynasty>> surpasses as an
older one and fans of the older one cling to it anyway, etc.>>>>
I've never been a Joker fan, but 23 > 22 > 20. Fed is #3 on the
Open Era>> GOAT list, IMO.> > For me, it's:> > 1) Djokovic> 2)
Federer> 3) Nadal(he just doesn't have the versatility of the
other two and his weeks at number one is the other reason I can't
put him above Federer despite having one more slam.)> My sentiment
is with you, I prefer Federer over Nadal for the same reason.Heck
IIRC Whisper's 7543, which I greatly admire and think is very
accurate, has Federer > Nadal. I like Fed's 8 Ws more than
Nadal's 14 FOs, even though the latter is the more mind-boggling
achievement. An achievement can be mind-boggling but not
better/greater. W is just better than the FO, IMO.But FWIW, my
personal view aside, I think the "tennis consensus" has Nadal
ahead of Fed, because IMO we have moved to a 1/1/1/1 world, where
all slams are equal and it's just whoever has the most of them.
I am a Federer fan, but I think Nadal's 14 or 15 FO titles are
crazy and will never be matched.
Of course Federer did well in Wimbledon but changing the grass
broke his edge over others on that surface, while Nadal enjoyed his
domination on his unique surface.
Also, had he switched to the bigger frame earlier in his career he
would have had added many more slams.
This is my opinion, people can definitely disagree.
It's not Roger's game or talents that were lacking, just mentally he
wasn't as great as Novak/Rafa. That counts just as much if not more.
I agree with that. Heck, I don't think I will ever understand how Fed
lost the 2019 W final to Joker, with two match points on his own serve.
That IMO is just a mental failing at the biggest moment, and it has
had huge legacy implications.
Probably have to give Novak credit for being a mental beast. It's not normal what he does out there. I can't explain it and I doubt Novak
could either. 'just concentrate and don't make errors on the big
points' doesn't explain it. Everyone would do it if it was simple.
Roger is not mentally weak, he's above average for a normal human for
sure. But he's not super human like Rafa or a freak like Novak. People
are starting to talk about Novak in terms of being the greatest
sportsman ever in an individual sport. Understandable. He may well be.
He can't rely on team mates, has to perform physically and mentally all
by himself over and over at the highest levels for decades.
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