a tourney of so many incredible upsets, thrillers, buzzer beaters, heart stopping moments......

and yet why almost every year is it basically ho-hum during the first two rounds without a lot of drama or excitement or real upsets?

I suspect we'll see more of the same this year- lots of talk about how wild and zany it will be, and then it turns out to be chalkish and have basically no buzzer beaters....

We'll see though.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

michael anderson <mianderson79@gmail.com> wrote:

a tourney of so many incredible upsets, thrillers, buzzer beaters, heart stopping moments......

and yet why almost every year is it basically ho-hum during the first two rounds without a lot of drama or excitement or real upsets?

I suspect we'll see more of the same this year- lots of talk about how
wild and zany it will be, and then it turns out to be chalkish and have basically no buzzer beaters....

We'll see though.

The few upsets we do see will fuel the excitement

Also don’t overlook the almost-upsets like when a 16 or a 15 takes a 1 or a
2 to the wire, that’s pretty exciting too and seems to happen frequently.



--
“I usually skip over your posts because of your disguistng, contrarian, liberal personality.” — Altie

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

a tourney of so many incredible upsets, thrillers, buzzer beaters, heart stopping moments......

and yet why almost every year is it basically ho-hum during the first two rounds without a lot of drama or excitement or real upsets?

Remember, pretty much every team seeded 13-16 is there because they won their conference, and wouldn't have gotten in otherwise, so there is usually a bit of a gap. This is something that might be fixed somewhat if they do expand to 80 - especially if
they get their act together and give the 48 byes into the first round to the top 48 teams, rather than having the eight lowest at-larges play in Dayton and whatever three cities they choose.

At least you didn't call them "play-in games"...

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On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 4:50:47 PM UTC-5, xyzzy wrote:

michael anderson <miande...@gmail.com> wrote:

a tourney of so many incredible upsets, thrillers, buzzer beaters, heart stopping moments......

and yet why almost every year is it basically ho-hum during the first two rounds without a lot of drama or excitement or real upsets?

I suspect we'll see more of the same this year- lots of talk about how wild and zany it will be, and then it turns out to be chalkish and have basically no buzzer beaters....

We'll see though.

The few upsets we do see will fuel the excitement

Also don’t overlook the almost-upsets like when a 16 or a 15 takes a 1 or a
2 to the wire, that’s pretty exciting too and seems to happen frequently.

what gets me though is when it's not even an upset and they call it such. To be an upset it has to be a seed upset(and not 7-10 or 8-9 lol)
*and* a line upset. And I'll add it should be a 'name' upset as well.

Like 12 vcu beating 5 St Marys if that is the 5/12 'upset' this year is NOT an upset. VCU has the same and likely more
basketball name rec than St marys, and it's a 4 pt line. Some 5/12 games in the past are actually smaller lines than that.....but there is just no way VCU beating St Marys is an upset. And it irritates me when they call those games such. Hell I
remember one year the 12 was actually a 1 pt favorite(talk about a bad 5) and they were raving about an 'upset'....lmao.

now duke losing to oral roberts in a 5/12 game? Ok....now you are talking. The spread is 6.5(which isnt massive), but on top of that you also have the name differential which is about as big as you can get.

other 'non-upset' upsets this year? Kent state vs indiana.....even though it's a 4 vs 13 game, is there a less threatening or less talked about 4 seed than Indiana? And kent state has won tourney games before. It's a 4.5 point line and regardless of
how much you like the game or like Kent State, nobody is going to be all that surprised if kent state beats indiana. Virginia v Furman is sorta similar. Virginia has had some great teams not that long ago, but not this one lol.....

so when providence beats a very inconsistent Ky team in a 6/11 game, I don't want to hear any crap about it being an upset.

--
“I usually skip over your posts because of your disguistng, contrarian, liberal personality.” — Altie

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On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 6:54:31 PM UTC-5, The NOTBCS Guy wrote:

a tourney of so many incredible upsets, thrillers, buzzer beaters, heart stopping moments......

and yet why almost every year is it basically ho-hum during the first two rounds without a lot of drama or excitement or real upsets?

Remember, pretty much every team seeded 13-16 is there because they won their conference, and wouldn't have gotten in otherwise, so there is usually a bit of a gap. This is something that might be fixed somewhat if they do expand to 80 - especially if

they get their act together and give the 48 byes into the first round to the top 48 teams, rather than having the eight lowest at-larges play in Dayton and whatever three cities they choose.

At least you didn't call them "play-in games"...

I think some 4/13 games are upsets and some not. Usually anything less than a 6 pt line I can't really consider an 'upset'.....and there are a couple 4/13 games like that. Keep in mind that the reason more 2/15 upsets vs 4/13 and 5/12 don't happen isn'
t because of the difference between the 2 and 4/5's....but because of the difference between the 12/13's and 15s.

but this year honestly I don't see any 'true' upsets happening......like oral roberts/Duke I would say is one. But if vcu beats St marys thats not an upset.

If princeton beats zona or colgate beats texas, I'll tip my cap to them and call it a nice and enjoyable upset. But don't give me this march madness "it's so crazy" nonsense when a 3.5-4 pt dog wins lol.....

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On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 2:58:07 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:

a tourney of so many incredible upsets, thrillers, buzzer beaters, heart stopping moments......

and yet why almost every year is it basically ho-hum during the first two rounds without a lot of drama or excitement or real upsets?

I suspect we'll see more of the same this year- lots of talk about how wild and zany it will be, and then it turns out to be chalkish and have basically no buzzer beaters....

We already got a great heart-stopper last night between Pitt and Mississippi State. Not a buzzer beater, but Mississippi State came from 6 points down to take a 1 point lead with 38 seconds left, only to have Pitt put in the game winner with 14 seconds
left. Maybe not a buzzer beater, but a thrilling end none-the-less.

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On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 9:58:56 AM UTC-5, JGibson wrote:

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 2:58:07 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:

a tourney of so many incredible upsets, thrillers, buzzer beaters, heart stopping moments......

and yet why almost every year is it basically ho-hum during the first two rounds without a lot of drama or excitement or real upsets?

I suspect we'll see more of the same this year- lots of talk about how wild and zany it will be, and then it turns out to be chalkish and have basically no buzzer beaters....

We already got a great heart-stopper last night between Pitt and Mississippi State. Not a buzzer beater, but Mississippi State came from 6 points down to take a 1 point lead with 38 seconds left, only to have Pitt put in the game winner with 14 seconds

left. Maybe not a buzzer beater, but a thrilling end none-the-less.

That was a *dreadful* game though and overall felt boring and uninspiring. Pitt is just so limited in what they can do as a team. Very rarely is there a power conference at large that you look at and say "this team has
no chance to make the final four". Even a small chance. But with pitt you can say that. Their top end is ridiculously limited and even if they play their best it just isn't going to be enough against a quality team playing their C game. They just don'
t have
quality players for the most part.

And mississipppi state just has no shooters. Like none at all. lol. Their "best player"(yes in quotes for a reason) is a plodding big man who can't stretch the floor, can't create spacing, has no handle, has
no range beyond 4 feet, and isn't even very crafty or fluid around the basket. And is big and uncoordinated and turnover prone(and my god he had a lot last night; near every damn time they targeted him
it resulted in a turnover). And for those who don't know, that sort of basketball player in 2023 is as obsolete as the horse drawn carriage. Hell I don't even think he could really protect the rim. For a 'good player' he's
about as useless as you can get in today's game, and Miss State may have beaten that completely talentless pitt team had they taken him off the floor more. All he did was clog up driving lines(which was about
the only thing miss st could do) and turn the ball over.

So yeah, that was a dreadful game. Close finish or not. Just my opinion.....

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On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 2:58:07 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:

a tourney of so many incredible upsets, thrillers, buzzer beaters, heart stopping moments......

and yet why almost every year is it basically ho-hum during the first two rounds without a lot of drama or excitement or real upsets?

I suspect we'll see more of the same this year- lots of talk about how wild and zany it will be, and then it turns out to be chalkish and have basically no buzzer beaters....

We'll see though.

All right, give us your reasons for not counting Furman over Virginia with the winning shot at 2 seconds as "madness".

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 1:59:49 PM UTC-5, JGibson wrote:

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 2:58:07 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:

a tourney of so many incredible upsets, thrillers, buzzer beaters, heart stopping moments......

and yet why almost every year is it basically ho-hum during the first two rounds without a lot of drama or excitement or real upsets?

I suspect we'll see more of the same this year- lots of talk about how wild and zany it will be, and then it turns out to be chalkish and have basically no buzzer beaters....

We'll see though.

All right, give us your reasons for not counting Furman over Virginia with the winning shot at 2 seconds as "madness".

Lol....I already specifically mentioned this game as being NOT an upset if it happened....in this very thread. Nostradamus couldn't have done it better :) see below

"Virginia v Furman is sorta similar. Virginia has had some great teams not that long ago, but not this one lol....."

So no, that's not a real upset. Virginia had a laughably bad offense and nobody respected them, and what was the line at tip like 4.5-5? So no, not a big upset based on line, perception, etc

Get back to me when and if Duke loses to oral roberts(bigger line, bigger percieved mismatch).....I already said I would consider that a decent upset.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 3:21:35 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 1:59:49 PM UTC-5, JGibson wrote:

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 2:58:07 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:

a tourney of so many incredible upsets, thrillers, buzzer beaters, heart stopping moments......

and yet why almost every year is it basically ho-hum during the first two rounds without a lot of drama or excitement or real upsets?

I suspect we'll see more of the same this year- lots of talk about how wild and zany it will be, and then it turns out to be chalkish and have basically no buzzer beaters....

We'll see though.

All right, give us your reasons for not counting Furman over Virginia with the winning shot at 2 seconds as "madness".

Lol....I already specifically mentioned this game as being NOT an upset if it happened....in this very thread. Nostradamus couldn't have done it better :) see below
"Virginia v Furman is sorta similar. Virginia has had some great teams not that long ago, but not this one lol....."
So no, that's not a real upset. Virginia had a laughably bad offense and nobody respected them, and what was the line at tip like 4.5-5? So no, not a big upset based on line, perception, etc

Get back to me when and if Duke loses to oral roberts(bigger line, bigger percieved mismatch).....I already said I would consider that a decent upset.

But it's not just the upset. It's the excitement of the 3-point play that Furman set up to win it.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 2:43:21 PM UTC-5, JGibson wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 3:21:35 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 1:59:49 PM UTC-5, JGibson wrote:

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 2:58:07 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:

a tourney of so many incredible upsets, thrillers, buzzer beaters, heart stopping moments......

and yet why almost every year is it basically ho-hum during the first two rounds without a lot of drama or excitement or real upsets?

I suspect we'll see more of the same this year- lots of talk about how wild and zany it will be, and then it turns out to be chalkish and have basically no buzzer beaters....

We'll see though.

All right, give us your reasons for not counting Furman over Virginia with the winning shot at 2 seconds as "madness".

Lol....I already specifically mentioned this game as being NOT an upset if it happened....in this very thread. Nostradamus couldn't have done it better :) see below
"Virginia v Furman is sorta similar. Virginia has had some great teams not that long ago, but not this one lol....."
So no, that's not a real upset. Virginia had a laughably bad offense and nobody respected them, and what was the line at tip like 4.5-5? So no, not a big upset based on line, perception, etc

Get back to me when and if Duke loses to oral roberts(bigger line, bigger percieved mismatch).....I already said I would consider that a decent upset.

But it's not just the upset. It's the excitement of the 3-point play that Furman set up to win it.

yeah I was working but I can see how that was cool. Still, I know it's only day 1 but apart from that moment so far everything else has been very underwhelming unless something cool happens tonight. If Duke beats Oral Roberts and Arizona beats
Princeton, for example, it's a big yawn overall.....

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 5:51:56 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 2:43:21 PM UTC-5, JGibson wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 3:21:35 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 1:59:49 PM UTC-5, JGibson wrote:

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 2:58:07 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:

a tourney of so many incredible upsets, thrillers, buzzer beaters, heart stopping moments......

and yet why almost every year is it basically ho-hum during the first two rounds without a lot of drama or excitement or real upsets?

I suspect we'll see more of the same this year- lots of talk about how wild and zany it will be, and then it turns out to be chalkish and have basically no buzzer beaters....

We'll see though.

All right, give us your reasons for not counting Furman over Virginia with the winning shot at 2 seconds as "madness".

Lol....I already specifically mentioned this game as being NOT an upset if it happened....in this very thread. Nostradamus couldn't have done it better :) see below
"Virginia v Furman is sorta similar. Virginia has had some great teams not that long ago, but not this one lol....."
So no, that's not a real upset. Virginia had a laughably bad offense and nobody respected them, and what was the line at tip like 4.5-5? So no, not a big upset based on line, perception, etc

Get back to me when and if Duke loses to oral roberts(bigger line, bigger percieved mismatch).....I already said I would consider that a decent upset.

But it's not just the upset. It's the excitement of the 3-point play that Furman set up to win it.

yeah I was working but I can see how that was cool. Still, I know it's only day 1 but apart from that moment so far everything else has been very underwhelming unless something cool happens tonight. If Duke beats Oral Roberts and Arizona beats

Princeton, for example, it's a big yawn overall.....

Well, there you go. #15 Princeton over #2 Arizona.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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JGibson <james.m.gibson@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 5:51:56 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 2:43:21 PM UTC-5, JGibson wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 3:21:35 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote: >>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 1:59:49 PM UTC-5, JGibson wrote:

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 2:58:07 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote: >>>>>> a tourney of so many incredible upsets, thrillers, buzzer beaters, >>>>>> heart stopping moments......

and yet why almost every year is it basically ho-hum during the
first two rounds without a lot of drama or excitement or real upsets? >>>>>>
I suspect we'll see more of the same this year- lots of talk about >>>>>> how wild and zany it will be, and then it turns out to be chalkish >>>>>> and have basically no buzzer beaters....

We'll see though.

All right, give us your reasons for not counting Furman over Virginia >>>>> with the winning shot at 2 seconds as "madness".

Lol....I already specifically mentioned this game as being NOT an
upset if it happened....in this very thread. Nostradamus couldn't have >>>> done it better :) see below
"Virginia v Furman is sorta similar. Virginia has had some great teams >>>> not that long ago, but not this one lol....."
So no, that's not a real upset. Virginia had a laughably bad offense
and nobody respected them, and what was the line at tip like 4.5-5? So >>>> no, not a big upset based on line, perception, etc

Get back to me when and if Duke loses to oral roberts(bigger line,
bigger percieved mismatch).....I already said I would consider that a decent upset.

But it's not just the upset. It's the excitement of the 3-point play
that Furman set up to win it.

yeah I was working but I can see how that was cool. Still, I know it's
only day 1 but apart from that moment so far everything else has been
very underwhelming unless something cool happens tonight. If Duke beats
Oral Roberts and Arizona beats Princeton, for example, it's a big yawn overall.....

Well, there you go. #15 Princeton over #2 Arizona.

He’s guaranteed us a bunch of upsets in this tournament, hasn’t he?

--
“I usually skip over your posts because of your disguistng, contrarian, liberal personality.” — Altie

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 5:14:56 AM UTC-7, xyzzy wrote:

JGibson <james.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 5:51:56 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 2:43:21 PM UTC-5, JGibson wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 3:21:35 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 1:59:49 PM UTC-5, JGibson wrote:

On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 2:58:07 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:

a tourney of so many incredible upsets, thrillers, buzzer beaters, >>>>>> heart stopping moments......

and yet why almost every year is it basically ho-hum during the >>>>>> first two rounds without a lot of drama or excitement or real upsets? >>>>>>
I suspect we'll see more of the same this year- lots of talk about >>>>>> how wild and zany it will be, and then it turns out to be chalkish >>>>>> and have basically no buzzer beaters....

We'll see though.

All right, give us your reasons for not counting Furman over Virginia >>>>> with the winning shot at 2 seconds as "madness".

Lol....I already specifically mentioned this game as being NOT an
upset if it happened....in this very thread. Nostradamus couldn't have >>>> done it better :) see below
"Virginia v Furman is sorta similar. Virginia has had some great teams >>>> not that long ago, but not this one lol....."
So no, that's not a real upset. Virginia had a laughably bad offense >>>> and nobody respected them, and what was the line at tip like 4.5-5? So >>>> no, not a big upset based on line, perception, etc

Get back to me when and if Duke loses to oral roberts(bigger line,
bigger percieved mismatch).....I already said I would consider that a decent upset.

But it's not just the upset. It's the excitement of the 3-point play
that Furman set up to win it.

yeah I was working but I can see how that was cool. Still, I know it's
only day 1 but apart from that moment so far everything else has been
very underwhelming unless something cool happens tonight. If Duke beats >> Oral Roberts and Arizona beats Princeton, for example, it's a big yawn overall.....

Well, there you go. #15 Princeton over #2 Arizona.

He’s guaranteed us a bunch of upsets in this tournament, hasn’t he?
--

well....that was Fairleigh re-Dick-ulous.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On 3/17/2023 8:12 PM, Eric Ramon wrote:

On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 5:14:56 AM UTC-7, xyzzy wrote:

JGibson <james.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 5:51:56 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote: >>>> On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 2:43:21 PM UTC-5, JGibson wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 3:21:35 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 1:59:49 PM UTC-5, JGibson wrote: >>>>>>> On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 2:58:07 PM UTC-4, michael anderson wrote:

a tourney of so many incredible upsets, thrillers, buzzer beaters, >>>>>>>> heart stopping moments......

and yet why almost every year is it basically ho-hum during the >>>>>>>> first two rounds without a lot of drama or excitement or real upsets? >>>>>>>>
I suspect we'll see more of the same this year- lots of talk about >>>>>>>> how wild and zany it will be, and then it turns out to be chalkish >>>>>>>> and have basically no buzzer beaters....

We'll see though.

All right, give us your reasons for not counting Furman over Virginia >>>>>>> with the winning shot at 2 seconds as "madness".

Lol....I already specifically mentioned this game as being NOT an
upset if it happened....in this very thread. Nostradamus couldn't have >>>>>> done it better :) see below
"Virginia v Furman is sorta similar. Virginia has had some great teams >>>>>> not that long ago, but not this one lol....."
So no, that's not a real upset. Virginia had a laughably bad offense >>>>>> and nobody respected them, and what was the line at tip like 4.5-5? So >>>>>> no, not a big upset based on line, perception, etc

Get back to me when and if Duke loses to oral roberts(bigger line, >>>>>> bigger percieved mismatch).....I already said I would consider that a decent upset.

But it's not just the upset. It's the excitement of the 3-point play >>>>> that Furman set up to win it.

yeah I was working but I can see how that was cool. Still, I know it's >>>> only day 1 but apart from that moment so far everything else has been
very underwhelming unless something cool happens tonight. If Duke beats >>>> Oral Roberts and Arizona beats Princeton, for example, it's a big yawn overall.....

Well, there you go. #15 Princeton over #2 Arizona.

He’s guaranteed us a bunch of upsets in this tournament, hasn’t he?
--

well....that was Fairleigh re-Dick-ulous.

from the twitter:

Matt Painter joins Lute Olson and Tony Bennett as the only coaches to
lose three times to a team seeded 13th or lower.....

and he did it in three straight years.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 6:12:29 PM UTC-7, Eric Ramon wrote:

well....that was Fairleigh re-Dick-ulous.

Killed the final 26 perfect brackets in the four major online games NCAA.com tracks.

So the pursuit ends, this year, in Game 25.

Mike

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On 3/17/2023 8:30 PM, leonard hofstatder wrote:

On 3/17/2023 8:12 PM, Eric Ramon wrote:

On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 5:14:56 AM UTC-7, xyzzy wrote:

JGibson <james.m...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 5:51:56 PM UTC-4, michael anderson
wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 2:43:21 PM UTC-5, JGibson wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 3:21:35 PM UTC-4, michael anderson >>>>>> wrote:

On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 1:59:49 PM UTC-5, JGibson wrote: >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 2:58:07 PM UTC-4, michael anderson >>>>>>>> wrote:

a tourney of so many incredible upsets, thrillers, buzzer beaters, >>>>>>>>> heart stopping moments......

and yet why almost every year is it basically ho-hum during the >>>>>>>>> first two rounds without a lot of drama or excitement or real >>>>>>>>> upsets?

I suspect we'll see more of the same this year- lots of talk about >>>>>>>>> how wild and zany it will be, and then it turns out to be chalkish >>>>>>>>> and have basically no buzzer beaters....

We'll see though.

All right, give us your reasons for not counting Furman over
Virginia
with the winning shot at 2 seconds as "madness".

Lol....I already specifically mentioned this game as being NOT an >>>>>>> upset if it happened....in this very thread. Nostradamus couldn't >>>>>>> have
done it better :) see below
"Virginia v Furman is sorta similar. Virginia has had some great >>>>>>> teams
not that long ago, but not this one lol....."
So no, that's not a real upset. Virginia had a laughably bad offense >>>>>>> and nobody respected them, and what was the line at tip like
4.5-5? So
no, not a big upset based on line, perception, etc

Get back to me when and if Duke loses to oral roberts(bigger line, >>>>>>> bigger percieved mismatch).....I already said I would consider
that a decent upset.

But it's not just the upset. It's the excitement of the 3-point play >>>>>> that Furman set up to win it.

yeah I was working but I can see how that was cool. Still, I know it's >>>>> only day 1 but apart from that moment so far everything else has been >>>>> very underwhelming unless something cool happens tonight. If Duke
beats
Oral Roberts and Arizona beats Princeton, for example, it's a big
yawn overall.....

Well, there you go. #15 Princeton over #2 Arizona.

He’s guaranteed us a bunch of upsets in this tournament, hasn’t he?
--

well....that was Fairleigh re-Dick-ulous.

from the twitter:

Matt Painter joins Lute Olson and Tony Bennett as the only coaches to
lose three times to a team seeded 13th or lower.....

and he did it in three straight years.

also,

Purdue is the only school in NCAA Tournament history to EVER be beaten
by a 15 seed and a 16 seed...

and they've suffered both of those losses in the last 2 years

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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