How many players who played in WC 2004
are still actively playing in a
top level league? I imagine there might be a GK or two, but Joaquin is remarkable for a 41 year old.
On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 3:39:32 PM UTC-5, MH wrote:
How many players who played in WC 2004
WC2002
are still actively playing in a
top level league? I imagine there might be a GK or two, but Joaquin is
remarkable for a 41 year old.
Buffon is still playing for Parma in Serie B, but apparently has lost his starting spot
On 2023-03-09 15:49, Futbolmetrix wrote:
On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 3:39:32 PM UTC-5, MH wrote:
How many players who played in WC 2004
WC2002
Yes, 2002, of course. There can't even be a whole let left from 2006.
are still actively playing in a
top level league? I imagine there might be a GK or two, but Joaquin is
remarkable for a 41 year old.
Buffon is still playing for Parma in Serie B, but apparently has lost his starting spot
Kameni is playing for an Andorran team. Roque Santa Cruz seems to be
playing in Paraguay. That is all I could find, so nobody to rival Joaquin.
On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 6:38:53 AM UTC+1, MH wrote:
On 2023-03-09 15:49, Futbolmetrix wrote:
On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 3:39:32 PM UTC-5, MH wrote:
How many players who played in WC 2004
WC2002
I had asked myself the very same question already more than five years ago, and even
back then the list was very short https://groups.google.com/g/rec.sport.soccer/c/F6YQoTIpFjw/m/iUT2BCXoBQAJ
Yes, 2002, of course. There can't even be a whole let left from 2006.
are still actively playing in a
top level league? I imagine there might be a GK or two, but Joaquin is >> remarkable for a 41 year old.
Buffon is still playing for Parma in Serie B, but apparently has lost
his starting spot
Kameni is playing for an Andorran team. Roque Santa Cruz seems to be playing in Paraguay. That is all I could find, so nobody to rival Joaquin.
Well, a certain Zlatan Ibrahimović (twice subbed in for Sweden in 2002) has returned into Milan's line-up just a couple of weeks ago, and has in the meantime come on as a substitute against both Atalanta and Fiorentina.
Werner Pichler escreveu:
On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 6:38:53 AM UTC+1, MH wrote:
On 2023-03-09 15:49, Futbolmetrix wrote:
On Thursday, March 9, 2023 at 3:39:32 PM UTC-5, MH wrote:
How many players who played in WC 2004
WC2002
I had asked myself the very same question already more than five years ago, >> and even
back then the list was very short
https://groups.google.com/g/rec.sport.soccer/c/F6YQoTIpFjw/m/iUT2BCXoBQAJ
Yes, 2002, of course. There can't even be a whole let left from 2006.Well, a certain Zlatan Ibrahimović (twice subbed in for Sweden in 2002) has >> returned into Milan's line-up just a couple of weeks ago, and has in the
are still actively playing in a
top level league? I imagine there might be a GK or two, but Joaquin is >>>>> remarkable for a 41 year old.
Buffon is still playing for Parma in Serie B, but apparently has lost
his starting spot
Kameni is playing for an Andorran team. Roque Santa Cruz seems to be
playing in Paraguay. That is all I could find, so nobody to rival Joaquin. >>
meantime come on as a substitute against both Atalanta and Fiorentina.
Probably not news, but this kinda hammers home the point that player careers nowadays last longer than they once did, even if those few are exceptions. I mean, let's transpose this 21-year window back into the past: how many players
from WC'1970 were still active in 1991? (for example)
Best regards,
Lléo
Probably not news, but this kinda hammers home the point that player careersWell for a start only 16 teams, instead of 32, and smaller squads....
nowadays last longer than they once did, even if those few are exceptions. I
mean, let's transpose this 21-year window back into the past: how many players
from WC'1970 were still active in 1991? (for example)
but definitely average age of international players seems to have gone up,and a lot more are playing into their late 30s. Better training and medical care must have something to do with that. Possibly larger
numbers of subs as well.
On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 10:16:58 AM UTC-5, MH wrote:Cameroonian league in 1970, but he earned his first cap in 1973. The next oldest players (Eric Gerets and an Egyptian goalie) were 36, so would have been just teenagers at the time of the 1970 WC.
Yes. All of that, plus higher wages.Probably not news, but this kinda hammers home the point that player careersWell for a start only 16 teams, instead of 32, and smaller squads....
nowadays last longer than they once did, even if those few are exceptions. I
mean, let's transpose this 21-year window back into the past: how many players
from WC'1970 were still active in 1991? (for example)
but definitely average age of international players seems to have gone up,and a lot more are playing into their late 30s. Better training and medical care must have something to do with that. Possibly larger
numbers of subs as well.
I was looking at the 1990 WC rosters. The oldest player was Peter Shilton (aged 40), who was already an active professional in 1970 (in fact, he earned his first cap shortly after the 1970 WC). Roger Milla (38) also was already banging goals in the
That's why Carbajal's record of playing in 5 World Cups looked so amazing at the time. Four players hit that mark at this year's WC: Messi, Ronaldo, Guardado and Ochoa.
On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 10:53:06 AM UTC-5, Futbolmetrix wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 10:16:58 AM UTC-5, MH wrote:
Yes. All of that, plus higher wages.Probably not news, but this kinda hammers home the point that player careersWell for a start only 16 teams, instead of 32, and smaller squads.... but definitely average age of international players seems to have gone up,and a lot more are playing into their late 30s. Better training and medical care must have something to do with that. Possibly larger numbers of subs as well.
nowadays last longer than they once did, even if those few are exceptions. I
mean, let's transpose this 21-year window back into the past: how many players
from WC'1970 were still active in 1991? (for example)
I was looking at the 1990 WC rosters. The oldest player was Peter Shilton (aged 40), who was already an active
professional in 1970 (in fact, he earned his first cap shortly after the 1970 WC). Roger Milla (38) also was already banging
goals in the Cameroonian league in 1970, but he earned his first cap in 1973. The next oldest players (Eric Gerets and an
Egyptian goalie) were 36, so would have been just teenagers at the time of the 1970 WC.
That's why Carbajal's record of playing in 5 World Cups looked so amazing at the time. Four players hit that mark at this
year's WC: Messi, Ronaldo, Guardado and Ochoa.
There was not a single player from World Cup 1978 that played in WC 1990 (only 12 years later). Shilton and Milla's teams did
not qualify in 1978 and Sanchez's team did not qualify in 1990. There was not a single player from Argentina's winning 1978
squad that played in WC 1986, only 8 years later. Passarella was the only survivor and he was on the bench the whole time.
On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 1:13:14 PM UTC+1, Paul wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 10:53:06 AM UTC-5, Futbolmetrix wrote:
On Friday, March 10, 2023 at 10:16:58 AM UTC-5, MH wrote:
Yes. All of that, plus higher wages.Probably not news, but this kinda hammers home the point that player careersWell for a start only 16 teams, instead of 32, and smaller squads.... but definitely average age of international players seems to have gone up,and a lot more are playing into their late 30s. Better training and medical care must have something to do with that. Possibly larger numbers of subs as well.
nowadays last longer than they once did, even if those few are exceptions. I
mean, let's transpose this 21-year window back into the past: how many players
from WC'1970 were still active in 1991? (for example)
I was looking at the 1990 WC rosters. The oldest player was Peter Shilton (aged 40), who was already an active
professional in 1970 (in fact, he earned his first cap shortly after the 1970 WC). Roger Milla (38) also was already banging
goals in the Cameroonian league in 1970, but he earned his first cap in 1973. The next oldest players (Eric Gerets and an
Egyptian goalie) were 36, so would have been just teenagers at the time of the 1970 WC.
That's why Carbajal's record of playing in 5 World Cups looked so amazing at the time. Four players hit that mark at this
year's WC: Messi, Ronaldo, Guardado and Ochoa.
There was not a single player from World Cup 1978 that played in WC 1990 (only 12 years later). Shilton and Milla's teams didMilivella once ran a somewhat related trivia competition https://groups.google.com/g/rec.sport.soccer/c/FjyqVbf5VwY/m/tzF3T5DImCkJ
not qualify in 1978 and Sanchez's team did not qualify in 1990. There was not a single player from Argentina's winning 1978
squad that played in WC 1986, only 8 years later. Passarella was the only survivor and he was on the bench the whole time.
Ciao,
Werner
On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 10:15:03 AM UTC-4, Paul wrote:
[snip]There was not a single player from World Cup 1978 that played in WC 1990 (only 12 years later).
Didn't know that, very interesting.
I was always puzzled by the 1978-1990 anomaly.Is it really an anomaly? Are there other pairs of WCs at 12-year gaps that saw no players participating in both?
From memory:
1970-1982: Zoff was on Italy's roster for both, didn't play in 1970
1974-1986: Zmuda (OK, I already used wikipedia for this)
1982-1994: Matthaeus
1986-1998: Matthaeus, Scifo, Michael Laudrup
[snip]There was not a single player from World Cup 1978 that played in WC 1990 (only 12 years later).
I was always puzzled by the 1978-1990 anomaly.
On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 1:19:11 PM UTC-4, Futbolmetrix wrote:Milla, N'Kono, Baresi, Maradona maybe more
On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 10:15:03 AM UTC-4, Paul wrote:
[snip]There was not a single player from World Cup 1978 that played in WC 1990 (only 12 years later).
Didn't know that, very interesting.
I was always puzzled by the 1978-1990 anomaly.Is it really an anomaly? Are there other pairs of WCs at 12-year gaps that saw no players participating in both?
From memory:The only other one I could find here was Cubillas.
1970-1982: Zoff was on Italy's roster for both, didn't play in 1970
1974-1986: Zmuda (OK, I already used wikipedia for this)Leao
1982-1994: MatthaeusHaven't looked at these yet
1986-1998: Matthaeus, Scifo, Michael Laudrup
1982-1994: Matthaeus
1982-1994: MatthaeusMilla, N'Kono, Baresi, Maradona maybe more
On Tuesday, March 14, 2023 at 1:58:59 PM UTC-4, Paul wrote:
t
Massaro too. Bergomi missed out on 1994, but was back in 19981982-1994: MatthaeusMilla, N'Kono, Baresi, Maradona maybe more
Interesting results - obviously Argentina of that era liked to renew their squads often.
I was always puzzled by the 1978-1990 anomaly.
However, there was one 1978 participant that played in WC 94 - Hugo Sanchez that started the game against Norway.
Interesting results - obviously Argentina of that era liked to renew their squads often.
I was always puzzled by the 1978-1990 anomaly.Well England missed 1978, as did teams like Belgium, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia,USSR, and then France, Poland, Hungary missed 1990. That
reduces the odds a bit.
Sweden was in both tournaments and had a few standout players over the years that stayed for several generations as they continued to be valuable to the team but just not in that particular period.
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 4:33:30 PM UTC-4, Paul wrote:right in the Austrian Second Division, and earned his last cap in 1994. Was he in the conversation for a call-up to the 1990 World Cup?
Sweden was in both tournaments and had a few standout players over the years that stayed for several generations as they continued to be valuable to the team but just not in that particular period.Another team that was in both tournaments was Austria, and they actually had quite a young core in 1978: Schachner, Prohaska, Weber, Pezzey were all 23 or younger, and went on to have long international careers.
Just not long enough for Prohaska and Weber, whose last cap was in 1989. Pezzey was not on the 1990 squad, but had his last cap in August 1990 (a farewell match?).
The interesting case is Schachner. It looks as if after leaving Serie A at the end of the 1988 season, he went back to Sturm Graz in the Austrian first division but had an unimpressive spell. But then, after 1990, he started banging goals left and
If only we had an expert of Austrian football, and Sturm Graz in particular, in this group...
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 5:54:37 PM UTC-4, Futbolmetrix wrote:right in the Austrian Second Division, and earned his last cap in 1994. Was he in the conversation for a call-up to the 1990 World Cup?
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 4:33:30 PM UTC-4, Paul wrote:
Sweden was in both tournaments and had a few standout players over the years that stayed for several generations as they continued to be valuable to the team but just not in that particular period.Another team that was in both tournaments was Austria, and they actually had quite a young core in 1978: Schachner, Prohaska, Weber, Pezzey were all 23 or younger, and went on to have long international careers.
Just not long enough for Prohaska and Weber, whose last cap was in 1989. Pezzey was not on the 1990 squad, but had his last cap in August 1990 (a farewell match?).
The interesting case is Schachner. It looks as if after leaving Serie A at the end of the 1988 season, he went back to Sturm Graz in the Austrian first division but had an unimpressive spell. But then, after 1990, he started banging goals left and
If only we had an expert of Austrian football, and Sturm Graz in particular, in this group...
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 4:33:30 PM UTC-4, Paul wrote:
Sweden was in both tournaments and had a few standout players over the years that stayed for several generations as they continued to be valuable to the team but just not in that particular period.Another team that was in both tournaments was Austria, and they actually had quite a young core in 1978: Schachner, Prohaska, Weber, Pezzey were all 23 or younger, and went on to have long international careers.
Just not long enough for Prohaska and Weber, whose last cap was in 1989. Pezzey was not on the 1990 squad, but had his last cap in August 1990 (a farewell match?).
The interesting case is Schachner. It looks as if after leaving Serie A at the end of the 1988 season, he went back to Sturm Graz in the Austrian first division but had an unimpressive spell. But then, after 1990, he
started banging goals left and right in the Austrian Second Division, and earned his last cap in 1994. Was he in the conversation for a call-up to the 1990 World Cup?
If only we had an expert of Austrian football, and Sturm Graz in particular, in this group...
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 10:54:37 PM UTC+1, Futbolmetrix wrote:
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 4:33:30 PM UTC-4, Paul wrote:
Sweden was in both tournaments and had a few standout players over the years that stayed for several generations as they continued to be valuable to the team but just not in that particular period.Another team that was in both tournaments was Austria, and they actually had quite a young core in 1978: Schachner, Prohaska, Weber, Pezzey were all 23 or younger, and went on to have long international careers.
Just not long enough for Prohaska and Weber, whose last cap was in 1989. Pezzey was not on the 1990 squad, but had his last cap in August 1990 (a farewell match?).
The interesting case is Schachner. It looks as if after leaving Serie A at the end of the 1988 season, he went back to Sturm Graz in the Austrian first division but had an unimpressive spell. But then, after 1990, he
started banging goals left and right in the Austrian Second Division, and earned his last cap in 1994. Was he in the conversation for a call-up to the 1990 World Cup?
If only we had an expert of Austrian football, and Sturm Graz in particular, in this group...Huh.
It's quite simple and plays into the 'lack of longevity' theory - almost nobody from the 78 squad (apart from goalkeeper Koncilia) played in the national team beyond the
age of 32. The core of the team started out together in 1973/74, reached their zenith in 1978, were already a bit over the hill in 1982, and it all came crashing down in the
qualifying campaign for the 1986 World Cup, which resulted in a complete turnover. From the team that lost 0-3 in Vienna in 1985 against Détári's and Nyilasi's Hungary
not a single player remained in the 1990 squad.
Prohaska (34 in 1990) was the only one that could realistically have made both squads, but he had retired from the NT already in 1985 (in acrimony, I think, following the
above mentioned qualification failure), had returned to 'help out' for the 1990 qualifying campaign (which, truth be told, was also rather lacklustre), and despite NT coach
Hickersberger allegedly beseeching him to reconsider Prohaska retired from football for good in summer 1989.
Schachner was 31 and out of shape when he came to Graz together with a bunch of other 'high-profile' (for Austria) signings, and that 88/89 season was a major failure
in which Sturm staved off relegation at the last moment.
So no, Schachner wasn't in the conversation in 1990 despite his second-division exploits (funnily enough, he *did* earn his first caps while playing in the Austrian second
division, one of the very few to do so; but it's a difference whether you're 19 or 33). That 1994 cap was a farewell match (his last 'real' cap was in summer 1988 and he'd
basically been out of the team for two years previously to that point), same as with Pezzey (who sadly died of a heart attack during a charity ice hockey match just four years
later, not even 40).
Ciao,
Werner
On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 4:26:07 PM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 10:54:37 PM UTC+1, Futbolmetrix wrote:
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 4:33:30 PM UTC-4, Paul wrote:
Sweden was in both tournaments and had a few standout players over the years that stayed for several generations as they continued to be valuable to the team but just not in that particular period.Another team that was in both tournaments was Austria, and they actually had quite a young core in 1978: Schachner, Prohaska, Weber, Pezzey were all 23 or younger, and went on to have long international careers.
Just not long enough for Prohaska and Weber, whose last cap was in 1989. Pezzey was not on the 1990 squad, but had his last cap in August 1990 (a farewell match?).
The interesting case is Schachner. It looks as if after leaving Serie A at the end of the 1988 season, he went back to Sturm Graz in the Austrian first division but had an unimpressive spell. But then, after 1990, he
started banging goals left and right in the Austrian Second Division, and earned his last cap in 1994. Was he in the conversation for a call-up to the 1990 World Cup?
If only we had an expert of Austrian football, and Sturm Graz in particular, in this group...Huh.
It's quite simple and plays into the 'lack of longevity' theory - almost nobody from the 78 squad (apart from goalkeeper Koncilia) played in the national team beyond the
age of 32. The core of the team started out together in 1973/74, reached their zenith in 1978, were already a bit over the hill in 1982, and it all came crashing down in the
qualifying campaign for the 1986 World Cup, which resulted in a complete turnover. From the team that lost 0-3 in Vienna in 1985 against Détári's and Nyilasi's Hungary
not a single player remained in the 1990 squad.
Prohaska (34 in 1990) was the only one that could realistically have made both squads, but he had retired from the NT already in 1985 (in acrimony, I think, following the
above mentioned qualification failure), had returned to 'help out' for the 1990 qualifying campaign (which, truth be told, was also rather lacklustre), and despite NT coach
Hickersberger allegedly beseeching him to reconsider Prohaska retired from football for good in summer 1989.
Schachner was 31 and out of shape when he came to Graz together with a bunch of other 'high-profile' (for Austria) signings, and that 88/89 season was a major failure
in which Sturm staved off relegation at the last moment.
So no, Schachner wasn't in the conversation in 1990 despite his second-division exploits (funnily enough, he *did* earn his first caps while playing in the Austrian second
division, one of the very few to do so; but it's a difference whether you're 19 or 33). That 1994 cap was a farewell match (his last 'real' cap was in summer 1988 and he'd
basically been out of the team for two years previously to that point), same as with Pezzey (who sadly died of a heart attack during a charity ice hockey match just four years
later, not even 40).
in the game before, were coming to Vienna needing a win only in order to qualify. At the time their players were probably already busy planning their moves to the Bundesliga and it ended up being not even close. Otherwise, we may very well have seen bothCiao,Very interesting insight, thank you. I remember the Austrian qualifying campaign of 1990, they secured their spot in the very last game. East Germany (in the very momentous month of November 1989), having gotten themselves a lifeline with 2 late goals
Werner
So no, Schachner wasn't in the conversation in 1990 despite his second-division exploits
Another good possibility was Brazilian goalkeeper Carlos who continued to play internationally all the way till 1993 but did not make the 1990 squad.
Em sábado, 18 de março de 2023 às 13:56:32 UTC-3, Paul escreveu:
Another good possibility was Brazilian goalkeeper Carlos who continued to play internationally all the way till 1993 but did not make the 1990 squad.The Brazilian 1990 squad was a break away from the previous generation. It featured seven players from 1986 (Alemão, Branco, Careca, Mauro Galvão, Müller, Silas and Valdo), but none from 1982 and, as already pointed out
in this thread, none from 1978 as well. The former generation's most iconic players, arguably Zico, Sócrates and Falcão, were retiring or retired already.
Fwiw the 1978 squad "echoed" until 1986 (five players).
At first it seemed Carlos could have been in the conversation for 1990. He was called up to Copa America 1987, one of seven Brazilian players who also had been in Mexico'86. But after Copa America he lost his starting spot at Corinthians, first to Waldir Peres, then to Ronaldo Giovanelli (who would be their starter for the next 10 seasons, becoming an icon of that club). He then moved to Malatyaspor in the middle of 1988. Turkish football was not in the Brazilian radar in 1988, so he just dropped out of contention for 1990 right there.
He returned to Brasil after the World Cup, playing for Atlético Mineiro, then
Guarani and Palmeiras. Since Taffarel was now playing abroad and could not always be released for friendlies, Brasil had to bring in other goalkeepers (almost all contenders were locally based, anyway). Thus he returned to the team, playing on a handful of friendlies from late 1991 onwards and being a squad member in both the US Cup and Copa America in 1993.
His last match for Brasil was in Copa America 1993, a 2-3 group stage loss to Chile. I don't remember him being at fault for any of the goals, but would have to look it up. Parreira rotated the squad's three keepers in that first round and tested a couple others in friendlies afterwards. But Carlos was not called up to any of the WCQ's later that year (the goalkeeping tandem
was almost always Taffarel/Zetti, IIRC) and retired from football at the end of 1993, playing for Portuguesa.
An ok keeper, usually reliable overall, he was also dubbed as unlucky, due to a penalty kick that hit the post, rebounded on his back and went into the goal, in the shootout against France in 1986.
Best regards,
Lléo
It's quite simple and plays into the 'lack of longevity' theory - almost nobody from the 78 squad (apart from goalkeeper
Koncilia) played in the national team beyond the
age of 32. The core of the team started out together in 1973/74, reached their zenith in 1978, were already a bit over the hill
in 1982, and it all came crashing down in the
qualifying campaign for the 1986 World Cup, which resulted in a complete turnover.
On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 4:26:07 PM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:were on the Euro 1988 roster (Ancelotti had been called up to the NT for the first time in 1981, but missed the 1982 cup because of injury; Mancini was already a regular starter in Serie A in 1982, but earned his first cap in 1984; and for the record,
It's quite simple and plays into the 'lack of longevity' theory - almost nobody from the 78 squad (apart from goalkeeperI wonder whether this just was a "thing" in the 1980s: have an unsuccessful tournament, dump the whole old guard, restart from scratch. That certainly was the case for Italy: of the 1982 WC champions, only three players (Baresi, Bergomi and Altobelli)
Koncilia) played in the national team beyond the
age of 32. The core of the team started out together in 1973/74, reached their zenith in 1978, were already a bit over the hill
in 1982, and it all came crashing down in the
qualifying campaign for the 1986 World Cup, which resulted in a complete turnover.
But then you look at the fate of the WC2006 champions (who also had an unceremonious WC exit 4 years later), and you see only a small increase in longevity. Only 4 players were on both the WC06 and Euro2012 rosters (Buffon, Barzagli, De Rossi and Pirlo), with three more who had been capped before but did not make the WC06 squad (Cassano, Di Natale and Chiellini)
Of course, the outcomes of the 1986 and 2010 World Cups suggest that that the old guard was not dumped soon enough...
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