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  • What's a major trophy and what's a minor trophy?

    From Mark@21:1/5 to All on Tue Jan 3 04:09:13 2023
    I assume the following are all major trophies: World Cup, World Club Championship, Copa America, European Championship, Copa Libertadores and Sudamericana, Champions and Europa League, domestic leagues, the main domestic Cup (Copa Argentina, DFB-Pokal,
    Copa Del Rey etc), etc.

    I assume the following are minor trophies: 2nd division championships, Nations League, U20 World Cup, I'm struggling to think of many examples.

    What about the Recopa/European Super Cup, the Confederations Cup, the old Copa Mercosur, League Cups etc? Are they major trophies? And what determines whether a trophy is a major trophy or a minor trophy?

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  • From MH@21:1/5 to Mark on Tue Jan 3 12:53:07 2023
    On 2023-01-03 05:09, Mark wrote:
    I assume the following are all major trophies: World Cup,


    Major

    World Club Championship


    Minor


    , Copa America, European Championship, Copa Libertadores and Sudamericana


    All major

    , Champions and Europa League, domestic leagues, the main domestic Cup
    (Copa Argentina, DFB-Pokal, Copa Del Rey etc), etc.

    Sure, major


    I assume the following are minor trophies: 2nd division championships,


    Minor for sure


    Nations League


    I would consider it major.


    , U20 World Cup, I'm struggling to think of many examples.

    What about the Recopa/European Super Cup, the Confederations Cup, the old Copa Mercosur, League Cups etc?


    League cups count as major in some countries. Not as prestigious as the
    older open cups/.


    Confederations cups, super cups, Charity shields etc. are all minor


    Are they major trophies? And what determines whether a trophy is a major
    trophy or a minor trophy?


    How long and arduous the competition, including qualifying, is. If a
    major trophy has already been awarded for the qualifying process (eg.
    winning the Copa America or Libertadores), then the subsequent
    competition would only count if the process were also long (multiple challenging matches) and arduous.

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  • From Real Mardin@21:1/5 to Mark on Tue Jan 3 13:29:47 2023
    On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 12:09:15 PM UTC, Mark wrote:
    I assume the following are all major trophies: World Cup, World Club Championship, Copa America, European Championship, Copa Libertadores and Sudamericana, Champions and Europa League, domestic leagues, the main domestic Cup (Copa Argentina, DFB-Pokal,
    Copa Del Rey etc), etc.

    I assume the following are minor trophies: 2nd division championships, Nations League, U20 World Cup, I'm struggling to think of many examples.

    What about the Recopa/European Super Cup, the Confederations Cup, the old Copa Mercosur, League Cups etc? Are they major trophies? And what determines whether a trophy is a major trophy or a minor trophy?


    Good question. However, I think there is room for another tier of competition in this analysis.

    Taking European club competitions as an example:

    Champions League - major

    Europa League - intermediate - you can’t really classify it as major if winning it grants access to the Champions League?

    Conference League - minor

    I’ll not rank the Super Cup right now as there is a debate to be had as to whether it’s a competition in the true sense or more a glorified friendly.


    RM

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  • From Mark@21:1/5 to All on Thu Jan 5 03:02:18 2023
    On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 7:53:09 PM UTC, MH wrote:
    On 2023-01-03 05:09, Mark wrote:
    I assume the following are all major trophies: World Cup,
    Major

    World Club Championship


    Minor

    Surely the World Club Championship is a major trophy? The World Championship is at stake. You can't get more major than that can you? (until we find life on other planets and teach them to play football). The reason it isn't a long arduous competition is
    to minimize fixture congestion I assume. And also because to determine the best team in the World, you don't really need anyone other than the best team from each continent to participate.

    , Copa America, European Championship, Copa Libertadores and Sudamericana
    All major
    , Champions and Europa League, domestic leagues, the main domestic Cup
    (Copa Argentina, DFB-Pokal, Copa Del Rey etc), etc.
    Sure, major

    I assume the following are minor trophies: 2nd division championships,
    Minor for sure


    Nations League


    I would consider it major.

    Isn't the Nations League to "replace" friendlies? I thought it was just a friendly tournament.

    , U20 World Cup, I'm struggling to think of many examples.

    What about the Recopa/European Super Cup, the Confederations Cup, the old Copa Mercosur, League Cups etc?
    League cups count as major in some countries. Not as prestigious as the older open cups/.


    Confederations cups, super cups, Charity shields etc. are all minor
    Are they major trophies? And what determines whether a trophy is a major trophy or a minor trophy?
    How long and arduous the competition, including qualifying, is. If a
    major trophy has already been awarded for the qualifying process (eg. winning the Copa America or Libertadores), then the subsequent
    competition would only count if the process were also long (multiple challenging matches) and arduous.

    I've thought of another one. The NWSL Shield. According to the USSF or whoever runs the NWSL, it's a major trophy. But if that's true, surely it rather devalues the NWSL Championship itself?

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  • From MH@21:1/5 to Mark on Thu Jan 5 08:05:45 2023
    On 2023-01-05 04:02, Mark wrote:
    On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 7:53:09 PM UTC, MH wrote:
    On 2023-01-03 05:09, Mark wrote:
    I assume the following are all major trophies: World Cup,
    Major

    World Club Championship


    Minor

    Surely the World Club Championship is a major trophy? The World Championship is at stake. You can't get more major than that can you? (until we find life on other planets and teach them to play football). The reason it isn't a long arduous competition
    is to minimize fixture congestion I assume. And also because to determine the best team in the World, you don't really need anyone other than the best team from each continent to participate.


    I defined my criteria very carefully. To win the so-called club world championship, you need to win the Champions league (or very rarely these
    days, the Libertadores), then win two more matches. You have already
    been awarded a major trophy for winning the previous competition. In
    essence, the Club World Championship is far more like the confederations
    cup, the various super-cups, and the charity (communities) shield than
    one of the major competitions.

    But we have been through this type of argument multiple times over the
    years on RSS. Opinions are clearly divided, and they are not going to
    change. Northern Europeans tend to view the intercontinental cup and
    its successors as largely irrelevant, South AMericans and
    Italians/Spaniards less so. Fine.

    You asked for a definition. I gave one.

    , Copa America, European Championship, Copa Libertadores and Sudamericana
    All major
    , Champions and Europa League, domestic leagues, the main domestic Cup
    (Copa Argentina, DFB-Pokal, Copa Del Rey etc), etc.
    Sure, major

    I assume the following are minor trophies: 2nd division championships,
    Minor for sure


    Nations League


    I would consider it major.

    Isn't the Nations League to "replace" friendlies? I thought it was just a friendly tournament.


    To win it you need to come first in a group with some serious opponents,
    then win two more knockout games against some of the top teams in
    Europe. The two winners so far have been reigning European Champs and
    reigning world cup holders. What is not to take seriously ? This one is
    hard to win, and will gain in prestige.

    , U20 World Cup, I'm struggling to think of many examples.

    What about the Recopa/European Super Cup, the Confederations Cup, the old Copa Mercosur, League Cups etc?
    League cups count as major in some countries. Not as prestigious as the
    older open cups/.


    Confederations cups, super cups, Charity shields etc. are all minor

    This is consistent with my position on the intercontinental cup/ CWC

    Are they major trophies? And what determines whether a trophy is a major
    trophy or a minor trophy?


    How long and arduous the competition, including qualifying, is. If a
    major trophy has already been awarded for the qualifying process (eg.
    winning the Copa America or Libertadores), then the subsequent
    competition would only count if the process were also long (multiple
    challenging matches) and arduous.


    See above, which is the main point I want to make. I would be happy to
    see what kind of definition of major/minor others might propose.



    I've thought of another one. The NWSL Shield. According to the USSF or whoever runs the NWSL, it's a major trophy. But if that's true, surely it rather devalues the NWSL Championship itself?


    I leave that one, and the MLS supporters shield, the "minor
    premierships" and the like in Australia (i.e. prizes awarded to the top
    team in a league system that then determines its champion via playoffs)
    to the teams and leagues involved, and their fans.

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  • From Blueshirt@21:1/5 to Mark on Fri Jan 6 00:03:54 2023
    Mark wrote:

    On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 7:53:09 PM UTC, MH wrote:

    World Club Championship

    Minor

    Surely the World Club Championship is a major trophy?

    It's not.

    The World Championship is at stake. You can't get more major than
    that > can you?

    Okay then, Chelsea FC are the best team in the world then.

    Clearly you can't disagree with that statement then can you?

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  • From Mark@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jan 6 01:10:17 2023
    On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 3:05:48 PM UTC, MH wrote:
    .
    See above, which is the main point I want to make. I would be happy to
    see what kind of definition of major/minor others might propose.

    I'm not sure what my definition would be (which is why I started this thread I suppose), but I think it would include any competition that would determine the Championship of a country, a continent or the world. Which, of course, includes the World Club
    Championship, but as you say we've had that discussion several times before, so if you don't want to discuss that, fair enough.

    I hope others do propose their definitions. There hasn't been much response to this thread yet. It would be good to have clearer information about this.

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  • From Real Mardin@21:1/5 to Mark on Fri Jan 6 15:22:15 2023
    On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 9:10:19 AM UTC, Mark wrote:
    On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 3:05:48 PM UTC, MH wrote:
    .
    See above, which is the main point I want to make. I would be happy to
    see what kind of definition of major/minor others might propose.

    I'm not sure what my definition would be (which is why I started this thread I suppose), but I think it would include any competition that would determine the Championship of a country, a continent or the world. Which, of course, includes the World
    Club Championship, but as you say we've had that discussion several times before, so if you don't want to discuss that, fair enough.

    The problem is not all countries are equal in strength, neither are all continents.

    By your definition both the English Premier League and the Albanian Kategoria Superiore are major competitions. As are the UEFA European Championships and OFC Nations Cup. Yet these pairs of competitions don't seem anywhere near equal in strength.

    I hope others do propose their definitions. There hasn't been much response to this thread yet. It would be good to have clearer information about this.

    MH thinks the Nations League is a major tournament. I think it's little more than glorified friendlies.

    You think the World Club Championship is a major tournament. Others think that in its current format it's little better than a friendly tournament.

    I don't think we can give you clearer information on this as if you ask six different people this question you'll probably get six different answers.

    Sorry.

    RM

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  • From MH@21:1/5 to Real Mardin on Fri Jan 6 19:52:19 2023
    On 2023-01-06 16:22, Real Mardin wrote:
    On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 9:10:19 AM UTC, Mark wrote:
    On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 3:05:48 PM UTC, MH wrote:
    .
    See above, which is the main point I want to make. I would be happy to
    see what kind of definition of major/minor others might propose.

    I'm not sure what my definition would be (which is why I started this thread I suppose), but I think it would include any competition that would determine the Championship of a country, a continent or the world. Which, of course, includes the World
    Club Championship, but as you say we've had that discussion several times before, so if you don't want to discuss that, fair enough.

    The problem is not all countries are equal in strength, neither are all continents.

    By your definition both the English Premier League and the Albanian Kategoria Superiore are major competitions. As are the UEFA European Championships and OFC Nations Cup. Yet these pairs of competitions don't seem anywhere near equal in strength.

    Major is contextual, too. The Albania teams can only win the league
    they are in, and presumably are very proud of the fact. Just as
    Galatasaray have every right to be proud of their UEFA cup victory.
    Emerging as the winning team in a long tournament involving some strong competition is pretty major to me.


    I hope others do propose their definitions. There hasn't been much response to this thread yet. It would be good to have clearer information about this.

    MH thinks the Nations League is a major tournament. I think it's little more than glorified friendlies.

    If that is true why have the winners been two of the best teams in
    Europe (France , Portugal) and the 12 semifinalists so far:

    Portugal, England, Netherlands X2, Spain x 2, Italy X 2, Switzerland,
    France, Belgium, Croatia.

    I mean the original few iterations of the Euros were not taken all that seriously by a lot of teams, and produced exactly the same number of
    different semifinalists (including Denmark, who were not exactly a power
    back then and had never qualified for a WC at that point. (They beat
    Malta, Albania and Luxembourg to get there !)

    USSR, Yugoslavia, France, Czechoslovakia
    Spain, Denmark, Hungary, USSR
    Italy, Yugoslavia, England, USSR

    So I expect, though I certainly could be wrong, that the nations league
    will only grow in prestige. If the CONMEBOL teams join in (which was
    mooted a while back but I don't think it is happening soon) even more so.





    You think the World Club Championship is a major tournament. Others think that in its current format it's little better than a friendly tournament.

    I don't think we can give you clearer information on this as if you ask six different people this question you'll probably get six different answers.

    Sorry.

    RM

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  • From Real Mardin@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jan 7 00:20:14 2023
    On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 2:52:22 AM UTC, MH wrote:
    On 2023-01-06 16:22, Real Mardin wrote:
    On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 9:10:19 AM UTC, Mark wrote:
    On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 3:05:48 PM UTC, MH wrote:
    .
    See above, which is the main point I want to make. I would be happy to >>> see what kind of definition of major/minor others might propose.

    I'm not sure what my definition would be (which is why I started this thread I suppose), but I think it would include any competition that would determine the Championship of a country, a continent or the world. Which, of course, includes the World
    Club Championship, but as you say we've had that discussion several times before, so if you don't want to discuss that, fair enough.

    The problem is not all countries are equal in strength, neither are all continents.

    By your definition both the English Premier League and the Albanian Kategoria Superiore are major competitions. As are the UEFA European Championships and OFC Nations Cup. Yet these pairs of competitions don't seem anywhere near equal in strength.
    Major is contextual, too. The Albania teams can only win the league
    they are in, and presumably are very proud of the fact. Just as
    Galatasaray have every right to be proud of their UEFA cup victory.
    Emerging as the winning team in a long tournament involving some strong competition is pretty major to me.

    I hope others do propose their definitions. There hasn't been much response to this thread yet. It would be good to have clearer information about this.

    MH thinks the Nations League is a major tournament. I think it's little more than glorified friendlies.
    If that is true why have the winners been two of the best teams in
    Europe (France , Portugal) and the 12 semifinalists so far:

    Portugal, England, Netherlands X2, Spain x 2, Italy X 2, Switzerland, France, Belgium, Croatia.

    I guess because whether the match is in a major tournament, minor tournament or a friendly there is going to be an advantage to the stronger teams. I think you placed the World Club Championship as a minor tournament but the winners over the past 10
    years have been Real Madrid, Liverpool, Bayern Munich, Chelsea, eg the best teams in the tournament.

    RM


    I mean the original few iterations of the Euros were not taken all that seriously by a lot of teams, and produced exactly the same number of different semifinalists (including Denmark, who were not exactly a power back then and had never qualified for a WC at that point. (They beat
    Malta, Albania and Luxembourg to get there !)

    USSR, Yugoslavia, France, Czechoslovakia
    Spain, Denmark, Hungary, USSR
    Italy, Yugoslavia, England, USSR

    So I expect, though I certainly could be wrong, that the nations league
    will only grow in prestige. If the CONMEBOL teams join in (which was
    mooted a while back but I don't think it is happening soon) even more so.

    You think the World Club Championship is a major tournament. Others think that in its current format it's little better than a friendly tournament.

    I don't think we can give you clearer information on this as if you ask six different people this question you'll probably get six different answers.

    Sorry.

    RM

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  • From MH@21:1/5 to Real Mardin on Sat Jan 7 11:07:01 2023
    On 2023-01-07 01:20, Real Mardin wrote:
    On Saturday, January 7, 2023 at 2:52:22 AM UTC, MH wrote:
    On 2023-01-06 16:22, Real Mardin wrote:
    On Friday, January 6, 2023 at 9:10:19 AM UTC, Mark wrote:
    On Thursday, January 5, 2023 at 3:05:48 PM UTC, MH wrote:
    .
    See above, which is the main point I want to make. I would be happy to >>>>> see what kind of definition of major/minor others might propose.

    I'm not sure what my definition would be (which is why I started this thread I suppose), but I think it would include any competition that would determine the Championship of a country, a continent or the world. Which, of course, includes the World
    Club Championship, but as you say we've had that discussion several times before, so if you don't want to discuss that, fair enough.

    The problem is not all countries are equal in strength, neither are all continents.

    By your definition both the English Premier League and the Albanian Kategoria Superiore are major competitions. As are the UEFA European Championships and OFC Nations Cup. Yet these pairs of competitions don't seem anywhere near equal in strength.
    Major is contextual, too. The Albania teams can only win the league
    they are in, and presumably are very proud of the fact. Just as
    Galatasaray have every right to be proud of their UEFA cup victory.
    Emerging as the winning team in a long tournament involving some strong
    competition is pretty major to me.

    I hope others do propose their definitions. There hasn't been much response to this thread yet. It would be good to have clearer information about this.

    MH thinks the Nations League is a major tournament. I think it's little more than glorified friendlies.
    If that is true why have the winners been two of the best teams in
    Europe (France , Portugal) and the 12 semifinalists so far:

    Portugal, England, Netherlands X2, Spain x 2, Italy X 2, Switzerland,
    France, Belgium, Croatia.

    I guess because whether the match is in a major tournament, minor tournament or a friendly there is going to be an advantage to the stronger teams. I think you placed the World Club Championship as a minor tournament but the winners over the past 10
    years have been Real Madrid, Liverpool, Bayern Munich, Chelsea, eg the best teams in the tournament.

    How is the CWC any different in substance from a charity shield, super
    cup, or confederations cup. The hard part is qualifying. 9 times out
    of 10, the CL winner is going to win the CWC (they have won 14 out of
    the last 15, including 9 in a row). In that sense it is kind of like
    the "automatic" masters degree you get from Oxbridge (an MA) that does
    not require any additional study beyond the bachelor's level:

    "In the universities of Oxford, Cambridge, and Dublin, Bachelors of Arts
    are promoted to the degree of Master of Arts or Master in Arts (MA) on application after six or seven years' seniority as members of the
    university (including years as an undergraduate). It is an academic rank indicating seniority, and not an additional postgraduate qualification,
    and within the universities there are in fact no postgraduate degrees
    which result in the postnominals 'MA'.[1] No further examination or
    study is required for this promotion and it is equivalent to
    undergraduate degrees awarded by other universities.[2][3][4]"



    RM


    I mean the original few iterations of the Euros were not taken all that
    seriously by a lot of teams, and produced exactly the same number of
    different semifinalists (including Denmark, who were not exactly a power
    back then and had never qualified for a WC at that point. (They beat
    Malta, Albania and Luxembourg to get there !)

    USSR, Yugoslavia, France, Czechoslovakia
    Spain, Denmark, Hungary, USSR
    Italy, Yugoslavia, England, USSR

    So I expect, though I certainly could be wrong, that the nations league
    will only grow in prestige. If the CONMEBOL teams join in (which was
    mooted a while back but I don't think it is happening soon) even more so. >>>
    You think the World Club Championship is a major tournament. Others think that in its current format it's little better than a friendly tournament.

    I don't think we can give you clearer information on this as if you ask six different people this question you'll probably get six different answers.

    Sorry.

    RM

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  • From Blueshirt@21:1/5 to All on Sat Jan 7 20:23:37 2023
    MH wrote:

    On 2023-01-07 01:20, Real Mardin wrote:

    I guess because whether the match is in a major tournament, minor tournament or a friendly there is going to be an advantage to the
    stronger teams. I think you placed the World Club Championship as a
    minor tournament but the winners over the past 10 years have been
    Real Madrid, Liverpool, Bayern Munich, Chelsea, eg the best teams
    in the tournament.

    How is the CWC any different in substance from a charity shield,
    super cup, or confederations cup.

    It's not... a big team is always going to be Club World Champion as
    generally the best teams from Europe win the UEFA Champions League and
    the best teams from South America generally win the Copa Libertadores.
    Despite FIFA opening the CWC to other confederations, the big teams
    from the main two confederations are still more than likely going to
    win it.

    The hard part is qualifying. 9
    times out of 10, the CL winner is going to win the CWC (they have won
    14 out of the last 15, including 9 in a row).

    Apologies on behalf of Rafa and his Blueshirts for spoiling the fifteen
    in a row and letting a South American winner sneak in !

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  • From Futbolmetrix@21:1/5 to All on Mon Jan 9 12:10:48 2023
    On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 2:53:09 PM UTC-5, MH wrote:
    And what determines whether a trophy is a major

    MH:
    trophy or a minor trophy?
    How long and arduous the competition, including qualifying, is. If a
    major trophy has already been awarded for the qualifying process (eg. winning the Copa America or Libertadores), then the subsequent
    competition would only count if the process were also long (multiple challenging matches) and arduous.

    Mark:
    Surely the World Club Championship is a major trophy? The World Championship is at stake.
    You can't get more major than that can you? ... And also because to determine the best
    team in the World, you don't really need anyone other than the best team from each continent to participate.


    Warning: we are going to discuss the Intercontinental Cup/World Club Championship again.

    I think MH's definition is a reasonable one, but there is something to Mark's definition too, and that is what sets apart the IC/WCC from the other various SuperCups/CharityShields, etc: the IC/WCC is played between the "best" teams (as much as a Cup
    competition can really identify who the "best" team is) of two (or more) entirely separate entities, that get to fight over the "World Champion" title. That's different from the Super Cup, which somewhat artificially pits against each other the winners
    of two competitions that often have the same teams involved.

    MH wants the competition to be long and arduous. Clearly the ICC/WC has never satisfied the "long" criterion. But what about arduous? One can reasonably argue that the current version of the WCC is not at all arduous for the UEFA representative, such are
    the disparities in club football across confederations. But what about the old ICC? Up until around 2000 it was very much a competitive affair. That is, a difficult, tough, challenging affair. All quasi-synonims of "arduous." Given the importance of the
    stakes and the fact that it satisfies of one of MH's two criteria, I do put it among the major trophies. Or rather, what used to be a major trophy but is no longer one.

    Northern European teams have only themselves to blame for not taking it seriously enough and not caring enough about their own and their confederation's bragging rights.

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  • From MH@21:1/5 to Futbolmetrix on Mon Jan 9 20:08:29 2023
    On 2023-01-09 13:10, Futbolmetrix wrote:
    On Tuesday, January 3, 2023 at 2:53:09 PM UTC-5, MH wrote:
    And what determines whether a trophy is a major

    MH:
    trophy or a minor trophy?
    How long and arduous the competition, including qualifying, is. If a
    major trophy has already been awarded for the qualifying process (eg.
    winning the Copa America or Libertadores), then the subsequent
    competition would only count if the process were also long (multiple
    challenging matches) and arduous.

    Mark:
    Surely the World Club Championship is a major trophy? The World Championship is at stake.
    You can't get more major than that can you? ... And also because to determine the best
    team in the World, you don't really need anyone other than the best team from each continent to participate.


    Warning: we are going to discuss the Intercontinental Cup/World Club Championship again.

    I think MH's definition is a reasonable one, but there is something to Mark's definition too, and that is what sets apart the IC/WCC from the other various SuperCups/CharityShields, etc: the IC/WCC is played between the "best" teams (as much as a Cup
    competition can really identify who the "best" team is) of two (or more) entirely separate entities, that get to fight over the "World Champion" title. That's different from the Super Cup, which somewhat artificially pits against each other the winners
    of two competitions that often have the same teams involved.

    MH wants the competition to be long and arduous. Clearly the ICC/WC has never satisfied the "long" criterion. But what about arduous? One can reasonably argue that the current version of the WCC is not at all arduous for the UEFA representative, such
    are the disparities in club football across confederations. But what about the old ICC? Up until around 2000 it was very much a competitive affair. That is, a difficult, tough, challenging affair. All quasi-synonims of "arduous." Given the importance of
    the stakes and the fact that it satisfies of one of MH's two criteria, I do put it among the major trophies. Or rather, what used to be a major trophy but is no longer one.

    Northern European teams have only themselves to blame for not taking it seriously enough and not caring enough about their own and their confederation's bragging rights.


    Verily, a Daniel come to judge ...






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