And here we go, into the 1-11 range! 11 days to the Cup, #11's turn on the limelight.

Quite a number of interesting players wore this one, even if only once. It's natural to begin with Miroslav Klose, the man who used this number for most World Cups (4, all the way from 2002 to 2014), as he set the record of most goals scored in the World Cup (16) on his way to one title, one second place finish and two semifinals.

Another famous German #11 is Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, with three World Cups
(1978 to 1986) and 9 goals to his name in the tournament, making the final twice. Arjen Robben also played three World Cups bearing the Oranje's #11,
from 2006 to 2014, scoring six goals and making one final and one semifinal. These are the number's three top goalscorers.

England also had a couple of very good #11's in Chris Waddle (1986) and
John Barnes (1990). So did Denmark, with both the Laudrup brothers (Michael
in 1986 and Brian in 1998). And there's also Pavel Nedved, #11 of the Czech Republic in 2006.

And that was Europe only. In Africa, some worthy mentions are Ivory Coast's Didier Drogba (2006 to 2014) and Algeria's Rabah Madjer (1982 and 1986). #11 was also Cameroon's Samuel Eto'o first squad number, in 1998.

In South America, Brasil has a long and proud tradition of heavyweight #11's. All the way back to 1958 there was Garrincha, mistakenly numbered #11 instead of his typical #7. Twelve years later, #11 would be Roberto Rivelino's first ever WC number, as he was a key member of a historical squad.

Then we get to Romario, who was the driving force of the 1994 World Cup winning
squad (he also wore it in 1990, but had very limited playing time due to injury).
Ronaldinho Gaucho took it in 2002, his most iconic moment in that WC being the lob over Seaman for Brasil's winning goal in the quarterfinals.

There's also Eder, who had a fine World Cup in 1982 and deserves mention
here. In that same World Cup, Argentina's Mario Kempes wore his country's
#11, dislodged from #10 by a certain left-footed rising star... And further South American honourable mentions go to Argentina's Carlos Tevez (2006 and 2010) and Chile's Marcelo Salas (1998).

I'm pretty much certain that I missed one or more important names above, so
if you spot any glaring misses by all means do bring them up. Tomorrow we get to #10!


Best regards,

Lléo

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On Wednesday, November 9, 2022 at 6:38:33 PM UTC-5, Lléo wrote:

I'm pretty much certain that I missed one or more important names above, so if you spot any glaring misses by all means do bring them up.

I would say Gigi Riva, who wore it for Italy in 1970 (3 goals?) and 1974 (meh), but I can understand how he doesn't quite rise to the level of these other legends (then again, he is still Italy's all time leading scorer) It's actually interesting how
unremarkable Italy's number 11s have been over the years:
1978 Pecci (never played)
1982 Marini (started the first two matches, then lost his spot to Oriali)
1986 Giuseppe Baresi (deployed in the R16 match to man-mark Platini, who went on to score in the 10th minute or so)
1990 De Napoli (at least a starter)
1994 Albertini (another starter, but not particularly appreciated, hi Benny!) 1998 Dino Baggio (past his prime)
2002 Doni (who?)
2006-2010: Gilardino (mostly a benchwarmer, nice violin goal celebration though)
2014 Cerci (more meh)

Tomorrow we get to #10!

How easy/difficult would it be rank all jersey numbers by goals scored?



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On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 1:38:33 AM UTC+2, Lléo wrote:

And here we go, into the 1-11 range! 11 days to the Cup, #11's turn on the limelight.

Quite a number of interesting players wore this one, even if only once. It's natural to begin with Miroslav Klose, the man who used this number for most World Cups (4, all the way from 2002 to 2014), as he set the record of most goals scored in the World Cup (16) on his way to one title, one second place finish and two semifinals.

Another famous German #11 is Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, with three World Cups (1978 to 1986) and 9 goals to his name in the tournament, making the final twice. Arjen Robben also played three World Cups bearing the Oranje's #11, from 2006 to 2014, scoring six goals and making one final and one semifinal. These are the number's three top goalscorers.

England also had a couple of very good #11's in Chris Waddle (1986) and
John Barnes (1990). So did Denmark, with both the Laudrup brothers (Michael in 1986 and Brian in 1998). And there's also Pavel Nedved, #11 of the Czech Republic in 2006.

And that was Europe only. In Africa, some worthy mentions are Ivory Coast's Didier Drogba (2006 to 2014) and Algeria's Rabah Madjer (1982 and 1986). #11 was also Cameroon's Samuel Eto'o first squad number, in 1998.

In South America, Brasil has a long and proud tradition of heavyweight #11's.
All the way back to 1958 there was Garrincha, mistakenly numbered #11 instead
of his typical #7. Twelve years later, #11 would be Roberto Rivelino's first ever WC number, as he was a key member of a historical squad.

Then we get to Romario, who was the driving force of the 1994 World Cup winning
squad (he also wore it in 1990, but had very limited playing time due to injury).
Ronaldinho Gaucho took it in 2002, his most iconic moment in that WC being the
lob over Seaman for Brasil's winning goal in the quarterfinals.

There's also Eder, who had a fine World Cup in 1982 and deserves mention here. In that same World Cup, Argentina's Mario Kempes wore his country's #11, dislodged from #10 by a certain left-footed rising star... And further South American honourable mentions go to Argentina's Carlos Tevez (2006 and 2010) and Chile's Marcelo Salas (1998).

I'm pretty much certain that I missed one or more important names above, so if you spot any glaring misses by all means do bring them up. Tomorrow we get
to #10!

Best regards,

Lléo

Llitser:

Axiomático, you really are a live encyclopedia of soccer.

And this is the finale chapter of jersey numbers and famous wearers.

In the good ol’ 4–2–4, the numbers were more important than the players. The numbers represented the positions on the field. There were also some mathematical relations between the numbers.

The goalkeeper always wore number 1.

The fullbacks always wore 2 (right side) and its double, 4 (on the left).

The right center back wore 3; its double, number 6, was the left center back.

There were 2 midfielders. Number 5, on the right; the left midfielder wore the double, number 10.

The 4 forwards wore the remaining numbers, also according to their position. The right winger was number 7; the right center forward had number 8; the left center forward had number 9; the left winger was number 11.

Today, only numbers 9 and 10 retain some significance in relation to their position. They are kinduv magical even today. #10, especially, is considered “royalty”, the “conductor”, the playmaker.

What number did you wear, Llitser? I never wore a numbered jersey…

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On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 8:59:09 AM UTC-5, ions...@gmail.com wrote:

Assiomatico, there was a time in all football when the jersey numbers were enforced. The starters wore 1 to 11; the goalkeeper substitute was always #12; the field substitutes wore 13, 14, 15.

Methinks 3 and 6 were always in the middle of the defense. Wasn’t Picchi #6? Wasn’t Mazzola #8? And Jair #7, the right winger?

As I said, it varies by country and by period. In Italy, by the early 1970s, number 3 was almost always the left defender, 5 almost always the stopper/man marking central defender, and 6 almost always the libero/sweeper.

Every Italian of my generation can recite by heart: ZoffGentileCabrini[pause]OrialiCollovatiScirea[pause]ContiTardelliRossiAntognoniGraziani

Note the ordering of Cabrini (3, left back), Oriali (4, defensive mid), Collovati (5, central defender), Scirea (6, libero)


Those slightly older than me had the Grande Inter: SartiBurgnichFacchetti[pause]BedinGuarneriPicchi[pause]JairMazzolaPeiroSuarezCorso

Looks as if the match between the numbers and the position played remained basically identical between the 1960s and the 1980s

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On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 3:30:39 PM UTC+2, Futbolmetrix wrote:

On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 8:09:09 AM UTC-5, ions...wrote:

In the good ol’ 4–2–4, the numbers were more important than the players. The numbers represented the positions on the field. There were also some mathematical relations between the numbers.

This is very country specific, and probably era-specific too. In most of Europe in the 1970s-80s, full-backs were 2 and 3, the center backs two of the 4-5-6 numbers (most often 5 and 6 were the center backs, and 4 was the defensive midfielder -- I find

it really annoying that today people refer to the defensive midfielder as "the 6") . As for the forward line, there was more heterogeneity across countries. In Italy at the peak of the catenaccio 1-3-3-1-2 formation, 8 and 10 were strictly midfielders, 7
was the "backtracking winger" and 9 and 11 were the strikers. In England, it seems as if number 10 was very often one of the two strikers, and there was more variation in the numbering.

In South America, 5 was almost always the enganche, the deep-lying midfielder, and there was more variation in the numbers used by defenders. And number 10 was more of a second striker than what he was in Europe.

Futitser:

Assiomatico, there was a time in all football when the jersey numbers were enforced. The starters wore 1 to 11; the goalkeeper substitute was always #12; the field substitutes wore 13, 14, 15.

Methinks 3 and 6 were always in the middle of the defense. Wasn’t Picchi #6? Wasn’t Mazzola #8? And Jair #7, the right winger?

Of course, football mathematics, you might say metrix, is chaotic now. Messi made #10 a “right” winger, while Ronaldo made #7 the “left” winger, whose base leg is right!

O tempora! O mores!

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On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 8:09:09 AM UTC-5, ions...wrote:

In the good ol’ 4–2–4, the numbers were more important than the players. The numbers represented the positions on the field. There were also some mathematical relations between the numbers.

This is very country specific, and probably era-specific too. In most of Europe in the 1970s-80s, full-backs were 2 and 3, the center backs two of the 4-5-6 numbers (most often 5 and 6 were the center backs, and 4 was the defensive midfielder -- I find
it really annoying that today people refer to the defensive midfielder as "the 6") . As for the forward line, there was more heterogeneity across countries. In Italy at the peak of the catenaccio 1-3-3-1-2 formation, 8 and 10 were strictly midfielders,
7 was the "backtracking winger" and 9 and 11 were the strikers. In England, it seems as if number 10 was very often one of the two strikers, and there was more variation in the numbering.

In South America, 5 was almost always the enganche, the deep-lying midfielder, and there was more variation in the numbers used by defenders. And number 10 was more of a second striker than what he was in Europe.

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On 2022-11-10 07:12, Futbolmetrix wrote:

On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 8:59:09 AM UTC-5, ions...@gmail.com wrote:

Assiomatico, there was a time in all football when the jersey numbers were enforced. The starters wore 1 to 11; the goalkeeper substitute was always #12; the field substitutes wore 13, 14, 15.

Methinks 3 and 6 were always in the middle of the defense. Wasn’t Picchi #6? Wasn’t Mazzola #8? And Jair #7, the right winger?

As I said, it varies by country and by period. In Italy, by the early 1970s, number 3 was almost always the left defender, 5 almost always the stopper/man marking central defender, and 6 almost always the libero/sweeper.

Back into the 60s in Scotland and England, no 3 was always the left
back, no 2 the right back. Still usually the case that the first choice players in those roles in a tournment squad get 2 and 3

In Germany, the back four was always 2,3 (fullbacks) and 4,5
(Vorstopper and Libero) back in the 70s/80s. When I lived in Germany,
squad numbers for the league were not yet a thing. So six was the most defensive midfielder there, in contrast to the UK, where players like
Souness wore that quite often, and centre backs were nearly always 5 and
6 as you say.

Every Italian of my generation can recite by heart: ZoffGentileCabrini[pause]OrialiCollovatiScirea[pause]ContiTardelliRossiAntognoniGraziani

Note the ordering of Cabrini (3, left back), Oriali (4, defensive mid), Collovati (5, central defender), Scirea (6, libero)

Those slightly older than me had the Grande Inter: SartiBurgnichFacchetti[pause]BedinGuarneriPicchi[pause]JairMazzolaPeiroSuarezCorso

Looks as if the match between the numbers and the position played remained basically identical between the 1960s and the 1980s

Pretty much, and, as you say, country dependent.



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Futbolmetrix escreveu:

On Wednesday, November 9, 2022 at 6:38:33 PM UTC-5, Lléo wrote:
How easy/difficult would it be rank all jersey numbers by goals scored?

My sources were Wikipedia and the FIFA website, so it's easy to do it from
1954 onwards. For the Cups between 1930 and 1950, they do not list the number the player used in each game. So, they either didn't use shirt numbers at all or used 1-11 (which I'm sure that was the case at least in 1950).

Without further information on who wore each number in each game, I can't add those cups' 312 goals. But for the period between 1954 and 2018, here they go:

#9 -> 293
#10 -> 285
#11 -> 223
#7 -> 166
#8 -> 147
#19 -> 109
#18 -> 96
#13 -> 92
#20 -> 86
#17 -> 82
#14 -> 69
#16 -> 69
#21 -> 68
#4 -> 65
#15 -> 62
#6 -> 60
#12 -> 56
#5 -> 41
#3 -> 40
#22 -> 30
#2 -> 22
#23 -> 12
#1 -> 1

That last one makes for a good trivia question :-)


Best Regards,

Lléo

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MH escreveu:

On 2022-11-10 07:12, Futbolmetrix wrote:

On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 8:59:09 AM UTC-5, Ion Saliu wrote:

Assiomatico, there was a time in all football when the jersey numbers
were enforced. The starters wore 1 to 11; the goalkeeper substitute was
always #12; the field substitutes wore 13, 14, 15.

Methinks 3 and 6 were always in the middle of the defense. Wasn’t Picchi >> #6? Wasn’t Mazzola #8? And Jair #7, the right winger?

As I said, it varies by country and by period. In Italy, by the early 1970s,
number 3 was almost always the left defender, 5 almost always the stopper/man
marking central defender, and 6 almost always the libero/sweeper.

Back into the 60s in Scotland and England, no 3 was always the left
back, no 2 the right back. Still usually the case that the first choice players in those roles in a tournment squad get 2 and 3

In Germany, the back four was always 2,3 (fullbacks) and 4,5
(Vorstopper and Libero) back in the 70s/80s. When I lived in Germany,
squad numbers for the league were not yet a thing. So six was the most defensive midfielder there, in contrast to the UK, where players like Souness wore that quite often, and centre backs were nearly always 5 and
6 as you say.

In Brasil, Argentina and Uruguay, the numbers' distribution followed
the developments of the old 2-3-5 tactic.

1
2, 3
4, 5, 6
7, 8, 9, 10, 11

Going in to 4-2-4, side-halves 4 and 6 were converted into fullbacks,
#8 came from attack to midfield:

1
4, 2, 3, 6
5, 8
7, 9, 10, 11

Going into 4-3-3, we'd get:

1
4, 2, 3, 6
5
8, 10
7, 9, 11

Some minor changes: Argentina switched around #3 and #6, while Brasil and Uruguay switched around #2 and #4; so, in Argentina, you have #2 central defender, #3 left back, #4 right back and #6 central defender; while in Brasil and Uruguay, it's #2 right back, #3 and 4 central defenders and #6 left back.

And that sets the template. From there, you can make some adaptations. If
your formation requires a second defensive midfielder, that would have been
#8 usually. No wingers? Drop back #7 or #11 (usually the latter). While the above
aren't hard and fast rules, I think it reflects reasonably well how numbering worked over here before squad numbers.


Best regards,

Lléo

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On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 4:01:08 AM UTC+1, Lléo wrote:

Futbolmetrix escreveu:

On Wednesday, November 9, 2022 at 6:38:33 PM UTC-5, Lléo wrote:
How easy/difficult would it be rank all jersey numbers by goals scored?

My sources were Wikipedia and the FIFA website, so it's easy to do it from 1954 onwards. For the Cups between 1930 and 1950, they do not list the number
the player used in each game. So, they either didn't use shirt numbers at all
or used 1-11 (which I'm sure that was the case at least in 1950).

I'd never asked myself that, but jersey numbers weren't in use in the
pre-war Cups (as can easily be discerned from the existing footage), and
were apparently only used on an ad-hoc basis in 1950 (so to find out who
wore which number in which match would be a nice addition to our 'Unused
Subs' thread).

Interestingly enough, ice hockey was much further along early on. https://hockeygods.com/system/gallery_images/13914/normal.jpg?1449475692

Without further information on who wore each number in each game, I can't add
those cups' 312 goals. But for the period between 1954 and 2018, here they go:

#9 -> 293
#10 -> 285
#11 -> 223
#7 -> 166
#8 -> 147
#19 -> 109
#18 -> 96
#13 -> 92
#20 -> 86
#17 -> 82
#14 -> 69
#16 -> 69
#21 -> 68
#4 -> 65
#15 -> 62
#6 -> 60
#12 -> 56
#5 -> 41
#3 -> 40
#22 -> 30
#2 -> 22
#23 -> 12
#1 -> 1

That last one makes for a good trivia question :-)

I also honestly hadn't known that after 1986 FIFA have
made it an official rule to prevent such shenanigans.


Ciao,
Werner

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On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 3:59:34 AM UTC-5, Werner Pichler wrote:

That last one makes for a good trivia question :-)

Ardiles in 1982? (But did he score?) He was number 2 in 1978, IIRC.

I also honestly hadn't known that after 1986 FIFA have
made it an official rule to prevent such shenanigans.

Wait, what?

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On Thursday, November 10, 2022 at 10:01:08 PM UTC-5, Lléo wrote:

Futbolmetrix escreveu:

On Wednesday, November 9, 2022 at 6:38:33 PM UTC-5, Lléo wrote:
How easy/difficult would it be rank all jersey numbers by goals scored?

My sources were Wikipedia and the FIFA website, so it's easy to do it from 1954 onwards. For the Cups between 1930 and 1950, they do not list the number
the player used in each game. So, they either didn't use shirt numbers at all
or used 1-11 (which I'm sure that was the case at least in 1950).

I'm actually surprised at how early shirt numbers were introduced. I thought it was later.

Without further information on who wore each number in each game, I can't add
those cups' 312 goals. But for the period between 1954 and 2018, here they go:

Thanks!

#9 -> 293
#10 -> 285

First surprise! I would have thought number 10 would come out on top.

#11 -> 223
#7 -> 166
#8 -> 147
#19 -> 109

The first of the non 1-11 numbers. A lot of strikers that couldn't get the 9 shirt so settled for 19?

#18 -> 96

18 = 9x2. More strikers.

(Now I have to go back to the threads on numbers 18 and 19 to see who is in these groups)

#13 -> 92
#20 -> 86
#17 -> 82
#14 -> 69
#16 -> 69
#21 -> 68
#4 -> 65

The first of the "defensive" numbers.

#15 -> 62
#6 -> 60
#12 -> 56
#5 -> 41
#3 -> 40
#22 -> 30
#2 -> 22

Poor number 2s. "Yeah, you're not that good, maybe play in defense and kick anything that comes near you?"

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On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 9:04:19 AM UTC-5, Futbolmetrix wrote:

#19 -> 109

The first of the non 1-11 numbers. A lot of strikers that couldn't get the 9 shirt so settled for 19?

"And finally 19. [...] The number's top goalscorer is Salvatore Schillaci,
due to his 6 goals in WC'90, and four players wore it in three World Cups: Julio
Salinas (Spain, 1986 to 1994), Freddy Rincón (Colombia, 1990 to 1998), Gianluca
Zambrotta (Italy, 2002 to 2010) and Yaya Touré (Ivory Coast, 2006 to 2014). "

Well now I'm surprised. Number 19s scored 109 goals, and the top scorer is Schillaci with only 6? The most democratic of all numbers?

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Futbolmetrix escreveu:

On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 9:04:19 AM UTC-5, Futbolmetrix wrote:

#19 -> 109

The first of the non 1-11 numbers. A lot of strikers that couldn't get
the 9 shirt so settled for 19?

"And finally 19. [...] The number's top goalscorer is Salvatore Schillaci, due to his 6 goals in WC'90, and four players wore it in three World Cups: Julio
Salinas (Spain, 1986 to 1994), Freddy Rincón (Colombia, 1990 to 1998), Gianluca
Zambrotta (Italy, 2002 to 2010) and Yaya Touré (Ivory Coast, 2006 to 2014). "

Well now I'm surprised. Number 19s scored 109 goals, and the top scorer is Schillaci with only 6? The most democratic of all numbers?

Looks like it is at least one of the most democratic. I had not noticed that and looked up again. Its 109 goals are spread around 69 different players. This amount of players is only behind the more "attacking" ones in the 7-11 range. Here is the full list:

#9 -> 132 different players
#10 -> 122
#11 -> 115
#7 -> 92
#8 -> 83
#19 -> 69
#18 -> 52
#20 -> 51
#14 -> 48
#17 -> 48
#6 -> 47
#15 -> 44
#16 -> 42
#21 -> 41
#4 -> 39
#13 -> 39
#5 -> 33
#3 -> 28
#12 -> 27
#22 -> 22
#2 -> 21
#23 -> 6
#1 -> 1


Best regards,

Lléo

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On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 2:59:32 PM UTC+1, Futbolmetrix wrote:

On Friday, November 11, 2022 at 3:59:34 AM UTC-5, Werner Pichler wrote:

That last one makes for a good trivia question :-)

Ardiles in 1982? (But did he score?) He was number 2 in 1978, IIRC.

I also honestly hadn't known that after 1986 FIFA have
made it an official rule to prevent such shenanigans.

Wait, what?

It's been in the regulations of every World Cup since 1990 (including this year's) that
'three players (on the list) must be goalkeepers, with the number 1 shirt reserved for one of them'.

Ciao,
Werner

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