On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 9:04:35 PM UTC+2, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 2:09:57 PM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 6:59:44 PM UTC+2, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 12:29:17 PM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 5:19:46 PM UTC+2, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 1:31:00 PM UTC-4, MH wrote:

On 2022-04-30 11:05, Futbolmetrix wrote:

On Saturday, November 21, 2020 at 6:26:12 PM UTC-5, Futbolmetrix wrote:

So Jose's Spurs are top of the league after a convincing Mourinho-like performance against ManCity.

Meaning that Mou could be on track to winning a championship with a fifth different team: Porto, Chelsea, Real Madrid and Spurs, and let's assume for a second that the one with the Immaculate Virgins also counts.

We did this not too long ago for managers winning in four or more different leagues, and there are six coaches that belong in this group: Mourinho (4 different teams), Trap (5), Ancelotti (4), Happel (4), Ivic (5), and Gerets (6) .

Real Madrid captures the 2021-2022 La Liga title, and Ancelotti becomes the first manager to win in each one of the top 5 leagues. Best superstar manager out there?

I dunno, his record of winning league titles, given that he has managed
so many elite teams, is not all that impressive. Has anyone ever done a
"wins over replacement" type analysis for him.

He managed only 50 % title wins with PSG (surely that compares unfavourably to just about everyone else they have had since they started their run of winning the title most of the time).

0 titles in 2 years with Juve

They won teh title the season before he joined. They finished 7th in his first season. Not too impressive.

1 title in 8 years with Milan

Below expectations (his CL exploits were very solid though).

1 title in 2 years with Chelsea

EPL was a 2 team league then, so about in line with minimum expectations.

The EPL is a 2 team league right now as well, and Klopp's honor list might look quite similar.

Is that a sincere comparison, or are you just being mischievous?

Bit of both. You worship Klopp, and got reasons to, but it doesn't quite square with you denigrating Tuchel and Ancelotti.

Honestly, and without trying to sound like I'm trolling, being a homer, or indulging in hyperbole, Ancelotti and Tuchel don't even belong in the same breath as Klopp.

Klopp has exceeded expectations everywhere he has ever managed. He took Mainz to the Bundesliga for the first in their history (I think), won two Bundesliga
titles with Dortmund and got to the CL final with a budget a fraction of Bayern's, and took Liverpool out of the gutter and molded arguably their greatest side in
history (with a net spend lower than West Ham, Aston Villa, and Everton in that same period). It's astounding what he has done at LFC.

Klopp's been through his fair share of disappointments, especially in finals.

A nuanced and knowledgeable fan like yourself should know better than most that cup competitions have a healthy element of luck in them.

He's had his fair share of disappointments in league seasons, too, not just when contending with Pep's Man City.
In his first two seasons in Mainz, he missed out on promotion first by one point and then by one goal.
But of course one of his strengths is great resilience, he got them up in his third year, just like he persevered with
Liverpool.

Still, not to forget that overall Tuchel did better with Mainz than Klopp.

Because I am pretty sure that you realize that there's a bit of a difference in the situations these two coaches inherited at their respective EPL clubs.

I guess you could say that I've come to appreciate the difficulty of getting results out of a group.
Even if, or rather especially when, they're already eminently good at what they're doing.

Let's look at a list of some others who have done that:

Flick - Took champions and kept them champions in both his seasons in charge, plus won the CL

He is somebody that definitely has the potential be numbered among the all-time great coaches one day.

Nagelsman - Took champions and conformably retained them as such

And is already under criticism for not having achieved anything else.

Pochettino - Same

Probably the most Ancelotti-like on the list? The old softie.

Sarri - Same

I'll leave it to Daniele to judge whether or not he's to be blamed for Juve's subsequent problems after the 19/20 title.

Alegri - Took champions and kept them as such for 5 consecutive years!

Yeah, he's good. Stubborn, though.

Vilanova, Valverde, Enrique - Same

Among the very stupid things that Barcelona have done on their way to their current state, firing Valverde was a major one.

I just listed 8 managers who took a championship team and retained it. None of the names above are mentioned as some of the greatest managers of recent
times. Maybe continuing to get results out of a dominant and successful group isn't as hard as you think it is.

Nevertheless I believe that to do it consistently, and in very different environments, is still a sign of real quality that few can emulate.


Ciao,
Werner

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On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 6:43:27 AM UTC+2, MH wrote:

On 2022-05-01 16:13, Futbolmetrix wrote:

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 3:04:35 PM UTC-4, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:

Even if, or rather especially when, they're already eminently good at what they're doing.

Let's look at a list of some others who have done that:
Flick - Took champions and kept them champions in both his seasons in charge, plus won the CL
Nagelsman - Took champions and conformably retained them as such
Pochettino - Same
Sarri - Same
Alegri - Took champions and kept them as such for 5 consecutive years!
Vilanova, Valverde, Enrique - Same

I just listed 8 managers who took a championship team and retained it.

And how many of these have done it in more than one place?

None of those, but people like Mourinho, Trapattoni and Capello have
done it with multiple teams, multiple times. Hitzfeld too, I suppose.
And Conte.

All from the top echelon of managers, no?

I guess more enlightening would be a list of those coaches who failed to maintain an equal
level of success after having taken over an established team.

Just off the top of my head: Moyes, Emery, Quique Setién, Villas-Boas, Rehhagel, Klinsmann, Sarri, Benítez,...


Ciao,
Werner

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On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 6:13:04 PM UTC-4, Futbolmetrix wrote:

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 3:04:35 PM UTC-4, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:

Even if, or rather especially when, they're already eminently good at what they're doing.

Let's look at a list of some others who have done that:
Flick - Took champions and kept them champions in both his seasons in charge, plus won the CL
Nagelsman - Took champions and conformably retained them as such
Pochettino - Same
Sarri - Same
Alegri - Took champions and kept them as such for 5 consecutive years! Vilanova, Valverde, Enrique - Same

I just listed 8 managers who took a championship team and retained it.

And how many of these have done it in more than one place?

I would argue that that's more a result of opportunity than anything else.

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On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 3:22:41 AM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:

On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 6:43:27 AM UTC+2, MH wrote:

On 2022-05-01 16:13, Futbolmetrix wrote:

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 3:04:35 PM UTC-4, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:

Even if, or rather especially when, they're already eminently good at what they're doing.

Let's look at a list of some others who have done that:
Flick - Took champions and kept them champions in both his seasons in charge, plus won the CL
Nagelsman - Took champions and conformably retained them as such
Pochettino - Same
Sarri - Same
Alegri - Took champions and kept them as such for 5 consecutive years! >> Vilanova, Valverde, Enrique - Same

I just listed 8 managers who took a championship team and retained it.

And how many of these have done it in more than one place?

None of those, but people like Mourinho, Trapattoni and Capello have
done it with multiple teams, multiple times. Hitzfeld too, I suppose.
And Conte.

All from the top echelon of managers, no?

I don't think it has ever been in dispute that Ancelotti is in the top echelon of managers. It's his reputation as one of the very best that I take strong exception to. In my opinion the 4 greatest managers of this millennium are Ferguson, Mourinho,
Guardiola, and Klopp, with an honorable mention for Conte. These are guys who have elevated their teams (and individual players) to new heights, on a consistent basis.

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On Monday, May 2, 2022 at 3:49:02 AM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:

Sarri - Same

I'll leave it to Daniele to judge whether or not he's to be blamed for Juve's subsequent problems after the 19/20 title.

Whoa...you are wading into dangerous culture/generational war territory within the Juve fandom...

Let's say that opinions about Sarri among Juve fans are...mixed.

On the positive side, he of course did lead the team to its 9th consecutive scudetto. Winning a scudetto is never a foregone conclusion, as subsequent years have shown. And winning one with a team with a "full belly" after such a long string of successes
is even harder. He may have been able to squeeze the last drops of quality from players such as Higuain, Khedira, Matuidi and Pjanic.

On the negative side:
- He never clicked with a majority of fans, who never forgave him some anti-Juve remarks made when he was coaching Napoli. According to some, he also lacked the "Juventus style," whatever that may be (people didn't like his sweaty polos, the fact that he
would always chew a cigarette butt, or that he would take notes on a small notepad during matches...whatever).

- Some people didn't like his style of play (or what should have been his style): attack-oriented, which apparently contrasts with Juve's DNA of a defense-first team. Whatever x2.

- He also clearly didn't click with the team, and apparently lost the dressing room early on. He said so himself in an interview after he left Juve, that he chose to sacrifice his style of play so that he would not lose the team completely. It's
emblematic that on the day we sealed the title, he quickly went back to the dressing room rather than celebrate on the field with the players.

- Whatever promises he made about changing the way Juve was supposed to play, it never really worked (see points above), and Juve during his tenure was not all that more pleasing to watch than during the Allegri tenure. We did concede more goals, though.

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On 2022-05-02 09:04, Al Kamista wrote:

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 6:13:04 PM UTC-4, Futbolmetrix wrote:

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 3:04:35 PM UTC-4, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:

Even if, or rather especially when, they're already eminently good at what they're doing.

Let's look at a list of some others who have done that:
Flick - Took champions and kept them champions in both his seasons in charge, plus won the CL
Nagelsman - Took champions and conformably retained them as such
Pochettino - Same
Sarri - Same
Alegri - Took champions and kept them as such for 5 consecutive years!
Vilanova, Valverde, Enrique - Same

I just listed 8 managers who took a championship team and retained it.

And how many of these have done it in more than one place?

I would argue that that's more a result of opportunity than anything else.

It does introduce a certain bias. Until recently (OK, recently in old
fogey relative terms), managers did not move around so much
(particularly in Britain, or so it would seem). You had people like Ron Greenwood (13 years at West Ham), Bobby Robson (13 years at Ipswich),
Keith Burkinshaw (8 years at Spurs) who did not win all that much (but
then things were also more competitive), but retained the faith of their
clubs (and were not poached by bigger clubs either).

German managers going abroad was not that common with a few exceptions
like Lattek and Heynckes (and an unsuccessful Weisweiler year at Barca).
Some of the bigger Dutch ones did move a bit more, perhaps.

Even more recently it seems like Italian, Portugese and Spanish managers
are more adventurous about trying their luck in new countries.

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On Tuesday, May 3, 2022 at 5:32:45 PM UTC+2, MH wrote:

On 2022-05-02 09:04, Al Kamista wrote:

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 6:13:04 PM UTC-4, Futbolmetrix wrote:

On Sunday, May 1, 2022 at 3:04:35 PM UTC-4, alka...@hotmail.com wrote:

Even if, or rather especially when, they're already eminently good at what they're doing.

Let's look at a list of some others who have done that:
Flick - Took champions and kept them champions in both his seasons in charge, plus won the CL
Nagelsman - Took champions and conformably retained them as such
Pochettino - Same
Sarri - Same
Alegri - Took champions and kept them as such for 5 consecutive years! >>> Vilanova, Valverde, Enrique - Same

I just listed 8 managers who took a championship team and retained it.

And how many of these have done it in more than one place?

I would argue that that's more a result of opportunity than anything else.

It does introduce a certain bias. Until recently (OK, recently in old
fogey relative terms), managers did not move around so much
(particularly in Britain, or so it would seem). You had people like Ron Greenwood (13 years at West Ham), Bobby Robson (13 years at Ipswich),
Keith Burkinshaw (8 years at Spurs) who did not win all that much (but
then things were also more competitive), but retained the faith of their clubs (and were not poached by bigger clubs either).

German managers going abroad was not that common with a few exceptions
like Lattek and Heynckes (and an unsuccessful Weisweiler year at Barca).

German managers like Piontek and Derwall (and later Feldkamp) helped kick-start things
in Denmark and Turkey.

Ciao,
Werner

Some of the bigger Dutch ones did move a bit more, perhaps.

Even more recently it seems like Italian, Portugese and Spanish managers
are more adventurous about trying their luck in new countries.

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On 2022-05-01, Al Kamista <alkamista@hotmail.com> wrote:

I just listed 8 managers who took a championship team and retained
it. None of the names above are mentioned as some of the greatest
managers of recent times. Maybe continuing to get results out of a
dominant and successful group isn't as hard as you think it is.

I see you didn't mention Heynckes...

--
ciao, Bruce

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On 2022-05-01, Al Kamista <alkamista@hotmail.com> wrote:

I think we all agree that Ancelotti does well when he inherits a
privileged situation.

Ancelotti does it with very big teams in very big games, but with some
others, not least Everton but also including us, it was a bit of a
meh. In our case language was also a factor. When considering
Heynckes, the fact that he doesn't have strong foreign language
capability would keep him out of top European lists. In Klopp's case,
to be a real great, he would have to go to another country and do it
there, too. Then there would be no question. The fact that Ancelotti
has done it in five different leagues in at least three distinct
cultures, as well as his CL success, puts him in a league of his own.

We all thought Guardiola could do that, but he hasn't brought it in
the CL outside his own crucible of Barca.

--
ciao, Bruce

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