On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 12:51:06 p.m. UTC-4, Real Mardin wrote:sleep under the money tree that is the Premier League), these feel like two Europa League level teams to me. The odd thing is the two stadiums used for the finals so far have a distinct third tier feel to them - last year's venue the Air Albania Stadium
Fortuna Arena, Prague. Kickoff 8pm GMT, 9PM CET.
It's the 1960/61 European Cup Winners' Cup winners against the 1964/65 European Cup Winners' Cup and 1999 Intertoto Cup winners.
I know this competition is in its infancy but so far it's not delivering finals featuring the sort of third tier sides the tournament was supposed to benefit. Given their collective European experience and wealth (particularly considering West Ham
Early reports are there has been trouble in Prague with Fiorentina fans allegedly attacking West Ham fans and dozens of arrests.
RMthe west ham fans seem to be the ones throwing stuff. Florence and the machine scored at the end of the half, but calledoffside. my feeling is thisends 0-0
Fortuna Arena, Prague. Kickoff 8pm GMT, 9PM CET.sleep under the money tree that is the Premier League), these feel like two Europa League level teams to me. The odd thing is the two stadiums used for the finals so far have a distinct third tier feel to them - last year's venue the Air Albania Stadium
It's the 1960/61 European Cup Winners' Cup winners against the 1964/65 European Cup Winners' Cup and 1999 Intertoto Cup winners.
I know this competition is in its infancy but so far it's not delivering finals featuring the sort of third tier sides the tournament was supposed to benefit. Given their collective European experience and wealth (particularly considering West Ham
Early reports are there has been trouble in Prague with Fiorentina fans allegedly attacking West Ham fans and dozens of arrests.
RM
Fortuna Arena, Prague. Kickoff 8pm GMT, 9PM CET.sleep under the money tree that is the Premier League), these feel like two Europa League level teams to me. The odd thing is the two stadiums used for the finals so far have a distinct third tier feel to them - last year's venue the Air Albania Stadium
It's the 1960/61 European Cup Winners' Cup winners against the 1964/65 European Cup Winners' Cup and 1999 Intertoto Cup winners.
I know this competition is in its infancy but so far it's not delivering finals featuring the sort of third tier sides the tournament was supposed to benefit. Given their collective European experience and wealth (particularly considering West Ham
Early reports are there has been trouble in Prague with Fiorentina fans allegedly attacking West Ham fans and dozens of arrests.
RM
Fortuna Arena, Prague. Kickoff 8pm GMT, 9PM CET.sleep under the money tree that is the Premier League), these feel like two Europa League level teams to me. The odd thing is the two stadiums used for the finals so far have a distinct third tier feel to them - last year's venue the Air Albania Stadium
It's the 1960/61 European Cup Winners' Cup winners against the 1964/65 European Cup Winners' Cup and 1999 Intertoto Cup winners.
I know this competition is in its infancy but so far it's not delivering finals featuring the sort of third tier sides the tournament was supposed to benefit. Given their collective European experience and wealth (particularly considering West Ham
Early reports are there has been trouble in Prague with Fiorentina fans allegedly attacking West Ham fans and dozens of arrests.
RM
Fortuna Arena, Prague. Kickoff 8pm GMT, 9PM CET.
It's the 1960/61 European Cup Winners' Cup winners against the 1964/65 European Cup Winners' Cup and 1999 Intertoto Cup winners.
I know this competition is in its infancy but so far it's not delivering finals featuring the sort of third tier sides
Early reports are there has been trouble in Prague with Fiorentina fans allegedly attacking West Ham fans and dozens of arrests.
RM
Nothing much to report at half time, Fiorentina dominating possession
but 0 shots on goal tells it's own story.
67 minutes - Fiorentina equalise, long ball into the box headed down to Bonaventura, he controlled the ball before hitting a low diagonal shot through a crowd of players to beat the keeper.
In light of West Ham's ridiculous VAR handall penalty even as a neutral it's hard not to be pleased with Fiorentina equalising.
RM
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 9:34:14 PM UTC+1, Real Mardin wrote:
67 minutes - Fiorentina equalise, long ball into the box headed down to Bonaventura, he controlled the ball before hitting a low diagonal shot through a crowd of players to beat the keeper.
In light of West Ham's ridiculous VAR handall penalty even as a neutral it's hard not to be pleased with Fiorentina equalising.
RM79 minutes, the match is opening up now with chances at both ends. This could really go either way.
RM
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 9:43:19 PM UTC+1, Real Mardin wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 9:34:14 PM UTC+1, Real Mardin wrote:
67 minutes - Fiorentina equalise, long ball into the box headed down to Bonaventura, he controlled the ball before hitting a low diagonal shot through a crowd of players to beat the keeper.79 minutes, the match is opening up now with chances at both ends. This could really go either way.
In light of West Ham's ridiculous VAR handall penalty even as a neutral it's hard not to be pleased with Fiorentina equalising.
RM
RM
90 minutes - just as thoughts were turning to extra time, Paqueta releases Bowen with a through ball, he was put through clear on goal and whilst some distance away outpaced everyone else to get close enough to shoot and put West Ham 2-1 up.
A good goal but in the context of West Ham's VAR handball penalty
RM
A good goal but in the context of West Ham's VAR handball penalty
this doesn't feel like justice.
On 2023-06-07 14:57, Real Mardin wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 9:43:19 PM UTC+1, Real Mardin wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 9:34:14 PM UTC+1, Real Mardin wrote:
67 minutes - Fiorentina equalise, long ball into the box headed down to Bonaventura, he controlled the ball before hitting a low diagonal shot through a crowd of players to beat the keeper.79 minutes, the match is opening up now with chances at both ends. This could really go either way.
In light of West Ham's ridiculous VAR handall penalty even as a neutral it's hard not to be pleased with Fiorentina equalising.
RM
RM
90 minutes - just as thoughts were turning to extra time, Paqueta releases Bowen with a through ball, he was put through clear on goal and whilst some distance away outpaced everyone else to get close enough to shoot and put West Ham 2-1 up.
A good goal but in the context of West Ham's VAR handball penaltyIn the context of how handball is assessed these days (which I think is
a terrible idea), that was not a particularly harsh decision. I would
say I have seen dozens, including the one against Grealish in the FA cup final, that were less obvious. the motion of Biraghi's hand , whether intentional or not,directed the ball away from Bowen and gave a clear advantage to Fiorentina.
SO, any bets on whether this one is ordered to be replayed ? Or West
Ham banned from Europe because of fan behaviour ?
this doesn't feel like justice.
RM
On 2023-06-07 14:57, Real Mardin wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 9:43:19 PM UTC+1, Real Mardin wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 9:34:14 PM UTC+1, Real Mardin wrote:
67 minutes - Fiorentina equalise, long ball into the box headed down to Bonaventura, he controlled the ball before hitting a low diagonal shot through a crowd of players to beat the keeper.79 minutes, the match is opening up now with chances at both ends. This could really go either way.
In light of West Ham's ridiculous VAR handall penalty even as a neutral it's hard not to be pleased with Fiorentina equalising.
RM
RM
90 minutes - just as thoughts were turning to extra time, Paqueta releases Bowen with a through ball, he was put through clear on goal and whilst some distance away outpaced everyone else to get close enough to shoot and put West Ham 2-1 up.
A good goal but in the context of West Ham's VAR handball penaltyIn the context of how handball is assessed these days (which I think is
a terrible idea), that was not a particularly harsh decision. I would
say I have seen dozens, including the one against Grealish in the FA cup final, that were less obvious. the motion of Biraghi's hand , whether intentional or not,directed the ball away from Bowen and gave a clear advantage to Fiorentina.
SO, any bets on whether this one is ordered to be replayed ? Or West
Ham banned from Europe because of fan behaviour ?
In the context of how handball is assessed these days (which I think
is a terrible idea), that was not a particularly harsh decision. I
would say I have seen dozens, including the one against Grealish in
the FA cup final, that were less obvious. the motion of Biraghi's
hand , whether intentional or not,directed the ball away from Bowen
and gave a clear advantage to Fiorentina.
SO, any bets on whether this one is ordered to be replayed ? Or
West Ham banned from Europe because of fan behaviour ?
MH wrote:
In the context of how handball is assessed these days (which I think
is a terrible idea), that was not a particularly harsh decision. I
would say I have seen dozens, including the one against Grealish in
the FA cup final, that were less obvious. the motion of Biraghi's
hand , whether intentional or not,directed the ball away from Bowen
and gave a clear advantage to Fiorentina.
SO, any bets on whether this one is ordered to be replayed ? Or
West Ham banned from Europe because of fan behaviour ?
It won't be replayed but West Ham will almost certainly get fined for
their fans behaviour.
West Ham were probably the better team on the night, so I don't see the result as unfair.
Yeah, the VAR call was right by the law as it stands, the hand clearly
moved the ball... but that law around unintentional hand ball isn't
really fair and it needs to be changed.
FT: Fiorentina 1 - West Ham 2
West Ham win their first European trophy since 1965 and their first major trophy since the 1980 FA Cup.
Serie A now 0 for 2 in this year's European finals, can Inter restore some pride on Saturday?
Fortuna Arena, Prague. Kickoff 8pm GMT, 9PM CET.
It's the 1960/61 European Cup Winners' Cup winners against the 1964/65 European Cup Winners' Cup and 1999 Intertoto Cup winners.
I know this competition is in its infancy but so far it's not delivering finals featuring the sort of third tier sides the tournament was supposed to benefit. Given their collective European experience and wealth
(particularly considering West Ham sleep under the money tree that is the Premier League), these feel like two Europa League level teams to me. The odd thing is the two stadiums used for the finals so far have a
distinct third tier feel to them - last year's venue the Air Albania Stadium in Tirana has a capacity of 22500 and tonight's venue holds 19370
- but something about the structure of the tournament seems to be
preventing the third tier sides from getting through. Alas, my dreams of a HJK Helsinki v FK Sarajevo final will have to wait until another year.
Early reports are there has been trouble in Prague with Fiorentina fans allegedly attacking West Ham fans and dozens of arrests.
RM
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:28:12 PM UTC+2, Blueshirt wrote:
MH wrote:
In the context of how handball is assessed these days (which I think
is a terrible idea), that was not a particularly harsh decision. I
would say I have seen dozens, including the one against Grealish in
the FA cup final, that were less obvious. the motion of Biraghi's
hand , whether intentional or not,directed the ball away from Bowen
and gave a clear advantage to Fiorentina.
Not a chance. A fine, that's it.SO, any bets on whether this one is ordered to be replayed ? Or
West Ham banned from Europe because of fan behaviour ?
It won't be replayed but West Ham will almost certainly get fined for their fans behaviour.
West Ham were probably the better team on the night, so I don't see the result as unfair.
Yeah, the VAR call was right by the law as it stands, the hand clearly moved the ball... but that law around unintentional hand ball isn'tI have absolutely no qualms regarding the penalty. The ball was in front of Biraghi and
really fair and it needs to be changed.
if he hadn't punched it out of the air....
It's Biraghi's job as a professional defender to know where the ball is and where his hands
are, not the referee's job to read Biraghi's mind to see whether he handled it unintentionally.
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:09:19 PM UTC+2, Real Mardin wrote:
FT: Fiorentina 1 - West Ham 2
West Ham win their first European trophy since 1965 and their first
major trophy since the 1980 FA Cup.
Serie A now 0 for 2 in this year's European finals, can Inter
restore some pride on Saturday?
Emerson Palmieri has now won five different UEFA competitions -
Champions League, Europa League and Super Cup with Chelsea,
Conference League with West Ham, and EURO with Italy.
He's missing the Nations League though.
We can agree to disagree about the decision, but I hope we can all
agree the current handball rules are nonsense and need reforming.
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 10:49:27 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:28:12 PM UTC+2, Blueshirt wrote:
Yeah, the VAR call was right by the law as it stands, the hand clearly moved the ball... but that law around unintentional hand ball isn't really fair and it needs to be changed.
I have absolutely no qualms regarding the penalty. The ball was in front of Biraghi and
if he hadn't punched it out of the air....
He didn't "punch" the ball, his hand and the ball collided as he ran toward it.
Obviously as a defender he has to run toward the ball, that's his job.
It's Biraghi's job as a professional defender to know where the ball is and where his hands
are, not the referee's job to read Biraghi's mind to see whether he handled it unintentionally.
No, but the referee is supposed to make a determination as to whether Biraghi's body was in an unnatural position and at the risk of sounding like a broken record
in the context of a player running I don't see how you can say his body was in an unnatural position.
We can agree to disagree about the decision, but I hope we can all agree the current handball rules are nonsense and need reforming.
On 2023-06-07 10:51, Real Mardin wrote:
Fortuna Arena, Prague. Kickoff 8pm GMT, 9PM CET.
It's the 1960/61 European Cup Winners' Cup winners against the 1964/65
European Cup Winners' Cup and 1999 Intertoto Cup winners.
I know this competition is in its infancy but so far it's not
delivering finals featuring the sort of third tier sides the
tournament was supposed to benefit. Given their collective European
experience and wealth (particularly considering West Ham sleep under
the money tree that is the Premier League), these feel like two Europa
League level teams to me. The odd thing is the two stadiums used for
the finals so far have a distinct third tier feel to them - last
year's venue the Air Albania Stadium in Tirana has a capacity of 22500
and tonight's venue holds 19370 - but something about the structure of
the tournament seems to be preventing the third tier sides from
getting through. Alas, my dreams of a HJK Helsinki v FK Sarajevo final
will have to wait until another year.
Early reports are there has been trouble in Prague with Fiorentina
fans allegedly attacking West Ham fans and dozens of arrests.
RM
Bit of an ill tempered match so far. Fiorentina players flopping all
over the place early on, with very little contact. West Ham players let
that and the fact they were being outplayed get under their skin and
they have been pretty poor so far. Lots of gesticulation and a few bad tempered challenges.
Fans have been misbehaving at the West Ham end. Throwing plastic glasses
at players taking corners. Resulted in cut to Biraghi ? who was bleeding profusely from the back of his head. I wonder will that result
in the match being replayed if West Ham win (unlikely as that seems at
this stage). There is precedent - Celtic- Austria Wien in the mid 80s
for instance. Also Real Madrid Inter the same year. Funnily enough the decisions were different in the two cases.
FT: Fiorentina 1 - West Ham 2
West Ham win their first European trophy since 1965 and their first major trophy since the 1980 FA Cup.
Serie A now 0 for 2 in this year's European finals, can Inter restore some pride on Saturday?accidental handball rule is coming back in the near future, I sincerely hope he's right.
Football has got to get on top of the handball rule - accidental handballs should not be producing penalties, particularly not ones that make the difference in a European final. Gary Lineker said on Match of the Day a few days ago that he had heard the
RM
62 minutes - West Ham take the lead with a VAR handball penalty smashed away by Benrahma. The sort of decision I can't understand - accidental handball by Biraghi as he ran to chase a loose ball - I know "accidental" isn't part of the test anymore butthe body being in an unnatural position is. In the context of the player running toward the ball, an outstretched arm is surely a natural body position?
On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 12:02:16 AM UTC+2, Real Mardin wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 10:49:27 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:28:12 PM UTC+2, Blueshirt wrote:
Yeah, the VAR call was right by the law as it stands, the hand clearly moved the ball... but that law around unintentional hand ball isn't really fair and it needs to be changed.
I have absolutely no qualms regarding the penalty. The ball was in front of Biraghi and
if he hadn't punched it out of the air....
He didn't "punch" the ball, his hand and the ball collided as he ran toward it.Which had what effect on the ball? Something like being punched?
Obviously as a defender he has to run toward the ball, that's his job.
It's Biraghi's job as a professional defender to know where the ball is and where his hands
are, not the referee's job to read Biraghi's mind to see whether he handled it unintentionally.
No, but the referee is supposed to make a determination as to whether Biraghi's body was in an unnatural position and at the risk of sounding like a broken record
in the context of a player running I don't see how you can say his body was in an unnatural position.
We can agree to disagree about the decision, but I hope we can all agree the current handball rules are nonsense and need reforming.What reforms would you suggest?
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 1:30:22 PM UTC-7, Real Mardin wrote:but the body being in an unnatural position is. In the context of the player running toward the ball, an outstretched arm is surely a natural body position?
62 minutes - West Ham take the lead with a VAR handball penalty smashed away by Benrahma. The sort of decision I can't understand - accidental handball by Biraghi as he ran to chase a loose ball - I know "accidental" isn't part of the test anymore
Irrelevant. The hand actually pushes the ball away from a massive scoring chance. You not only call the penalty there, but that's a card of some color.
On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 12:02:16 AM UTC+2, Real Mardin wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 10:49:27 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:28:12 PM UTC+2, Blueshirt wrote:
Yeah, the VAR call was right by the law as it stands, the hand clearly >>>> moved the ball... but that law around unintentional hand ball isn't
really fair and it needs to be changed.
I have absolutely no qualms regarding the penalty. The ball was in front of Biraghi and
if he hadn't punched it out of the air....
He didn't "punch" the ball, his hand and the ball collided as he ran toward it.
Which had what effect on the ball? Something like being punched?
Obviously as a defender he has to run toward the ball, that's his job.
It's Biraghi's job as a professional defender to know where the ball is and where his hands
are, not the referee's job to read Biraghi's mind to see whether he handled it unintentionally.
No, but the referee is supposed to make a determination as to whether Biraghi's body was in an unnatural position and at the risk of sounding like a broken record
in the context of a player running I don't see how you can say his body was in an unnatural position.
We can agree to disagree about the decision, but I hope we can all agree the current handball rules are nonsense and need reforming.
What reforms would you suggest?
I can tell you what I don't want to see - players flailing their arms around willy-nilly, safe in the knowledge they'll have plausible
deniability if they can claim that they didn't aim for the ball - e.g. on occasion of a free-kick a player in the wall facing away from the ball,
but raising his arms as high as he can.
So how would you phrase a handball rule that encompasses that? Ideally without recurring to 'intent' and so necessitating mind-reading
powers on part of the referees? And we all know if there's a loophole in the rules, savvy players will find it.
My suggestion that I've already repeated a couple of times here would be to punish *all* handballs where the ball has travelled
more than 9.15m/10 yards (distance between free-kick location and wall), before hitting an arm - something that VAR could determine -
which should leave enough time for any defender to get his extremities out of the way, and punish only the most egregious
cases when the distance is less. But that's just a first thought.
Ciao,
Werner
I'm afraid my view is intent needs to be a crucial element of handball calls. Eg, there would be no more accidental handball calls. If that entails a referee having to analyse VAR footage for a few minutes to make a judgement as to whether a player'sbody position suggests the handball was intentional then so be it. I'd much prefer that than a team being handed (excuse the pun) a European trophy because of the sort of ridiculous decision we saw yesterday.
Essentially the only handball decisions that should be called are:
1) Player picks up the ball
2) Player deliberately controls the ball with his hands, eg if he is on the ground following a tackle.
3) Players uses hands to deliberately swat away an aerial ball.
4) Player deliberately uses hands to stop the ball going into his own net.
What reforms would you suggest?
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 6:21:01 PM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:
What reforms would you suggest?I'm OK with going back to the referees doing mind reading. And if some players are really good at flailing their arms and make it look unintentional, good for them.
On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 10:47:08 AM UTC-4, Futbolmetrix wrote:had the common sense to challenge it since.
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 6:21:01 PM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:A better solution is to award direct FKs from the spot of the handball (or foul for that matter). The only handballs and fouls that result in PKs should be the denial of a clear goalscoring opportunity (i.e. what is currently a red card).
What reforms would you suggest?I'm OK with going back to the referees doing mind reading. And if some players are really good at flailing their arms and make it look unintentional, good for them.
Giving a team a 75-80% chance of scoring because of a minor infringement in the far reaches of the penalty area seems like cruel and unusual punishment. It sounds like something an Englishman with a handlebar mustache thought of in 1863 and no one has
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:21:01 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 12:02:16 AM UTC+2, Real Mardin wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 10:49:27 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:28:12 PM UTC+2, Blueshirt wrote:
Yeah, the VAR call was right by the law as it stands, the hand clearly
moved the ball... but that law around unintentional hand ball isn't really fair and it needs to be changed.
I have absolutely no qualms regarding the penalty. The ball was in front of Biraghi and
if he hadn't punched it out of the air....
He didn't "punch" the ball, his hand and the ball collided as he ran toward it.Which had what effect on the ball? Something like being punched?
Obviously as a defender he has to run toward the ball, that's his job.
It's Biraghi's job as a professional defender to know where the ball is and where his hands
are, not the referee's job to read Biraghi's mind to see whether he handled it unintentionally.
No, but the referee is supposed to make a determination as to whether Biraghi's body was in an unnatural position and at the risk of sounding like a broken record
in the context of a player running I don't see how you can say his body was in an unnatural position.
We can agree to disagree about the decision, but I hope we can all agree the current handball rules are nonsense and need reforming.
What reforms would you suggest?
I'm afraid my view is intent needs to be a crucial element of handball calls. Eg, there would be no more accidental handball calls. If that entails a referee having to analyse VAR footage for a few minutes to make a
judgement as to whether a player's body position suggests the handball was intentional then so be it. I'd much prefer that than a team being handed (excuse the pun) a European trophy because of the sort of
ridiculous decision we saw yesterday.
Essentially the only handball decisions that should be called are:
1) Player picks up the ball
2) Player deliberately controls the ball with his hands, eg if he is on the ground following a tackle.
3) Players uses hands to deliberately swat away an aerial ball.
4) Player deliberately uses hands to stop the ball going into his own net.
Thinking of 4, I think that would be the only situation where I'd allow an accidental handball to given as a penalty. If the ball is clearly about to go into the net but for contact with the defender's hand, then even if
accidental that should be an offence. I'd even go as far as removing the requirement for a penalty in those situations and simply award the attacking team a goal, much like the goal tending rule in basketball.
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 6:21:01 PM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:
What reforms would you suggest?
I'm OK with going back to the referees doing mind reading. And if some players are really good at flailing their arms and make it look unintentional, good for them.
On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 5:27:21 PM UTC+1, Al Kamista wrote:had the common sense to challenge it since.
On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 10:47:08 AM UTC-4, Futbolmetrix wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 6:21:01 PM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote: >>>> What reforms would you suggest?A better solution is to award direct FKs from the spot of the handball (or foul for that matter). The only handballs and fouls that result in PKs should be the denial of a clear goalscoring opportunity (i.e. what is currently a red card).
I'm OK with going back to the referees doing mind reading. And if some players are really good at flailing their arms and make it look unintentional, good for them.
Giving a team a 75-80% chance of scoring because of a minor infringement in the far reaches of the penalty area seems like cruel and unusual punishment. It sounds like something an Englishman with a handlebar mustache thought of in 1863 and no one has
Agreed, implementing this would be progress in my view. Never really understood why an accidental handball just inside the penalty area while numerous defenders are behind the ball should result in a chance to score one on one against the keeper.
RM
On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 5:27:21 PM UTC+1, Al Kamista wrote:
On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 10:47:08 AM UTC-4, Futbolmetrix wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 6:21:01 PM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:A better solution is to award direct FKs from the spot of the handball (or foul for that matter). The only handballs and fouls that result in PKs should be the denial of a clear goalscoring opportunity (i.e. what is
What reforms would you suggest?I'm OK with going back to the referees doing mind reading. And if some players are really good at flailing their arms and make it look unintentional, good for them.
currently a red card).
Giving a team a 75-80% chance of scoring because of a minor infringement in the far reaches of the penalty area seems like cruel and unusual punishment. It sounds like something an Englishman with a
handlebar mustache thought of in 1863 and no one has had the common sense to challenge it since.
Agreed, implementing this would be progress in my view. Never really understood why an accidental handball just inside the penalty area while numerous defenders are behind the ball should result in a chance to
score one on one against the keeper.
On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 10:47:08 AM UTC-4, Futbolmetrix wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 6:21:01 PM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:A better solution is to award direct FKs from the spot of the handball (or foul for that matter). The only handballs and fouls that result in PKs should be the denial of a clear goalscoring opportunity (i.e. what is currently a red card).
What reforms would you suggest?I'm OK with going back to the referees doing mind reading. And if some players are really good at flailing their arms and make it look unintentional, good for them.
Giving a team a 75-80% chance of scoring because of a minor infringement in the far reaches of the penalty area seems like cruel and unusual punishment. It sounds like something an Englishman with a handlebar
mustache thought of in 1863
and no one has had the common sense to challenge it since.
On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 12:02:50 AM UTC+2, Real Mardin wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:21:01 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 12:02:16 AM UTC+2, Real Mardin wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 10:49:27 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:28:12 PM UTC+2, Blueshirt wrote:
Yeah, the VAR call was right by the law as it stands, the hand clearly
moved the ball... but that law around unintentional hand ball isn't
really fair and it needs to be changed.
I have absolutely no qualms regarding the penalty. The ball was in front of Biraghi and
if he hadn't punched it out of the air....
He didn't "punch" the ball, his hand and the ball collided as he ran toward it.Which had what effect on the ball? Something like being punched?
Obviously as a defender he has to run toward the ball, that's his job.
It's Biraghi's job as a professional defender to know where the ball is and where his hands
are, not the referee's job to read Biraghi's mind to see whether he handled it unintentionally.
No, but the referee is supposed to make a determination as to whether Biraghi's body was in an unnatural position and at the risk of sounding like a broken record
in the context of a player running I don't see how you can say his body was in an unnatural position.
We can agree to disagree about the decision, but I hope we can all agree the current handball rules are nonsense and need reforming.
What reforms would you suggest?
I'm afraid my view is intent needs to be a crucial element of handball calls. Eg, there would be no more accidental handball calls. If that entails a referee having to analyse VAR footage for a few minutes to make a
judgement as to whether a player's body position suggests the handball was intentional then so be it. I'd much prefer that than a team being handed (excuse the pun) a European trophy because of the sort of
ridiculous decision we saw yesterday.
Essentially the only handball decisions that should be called are:
1) Player picks up the ball
2) Player deliberately controls the ball with his hands, eg if he is on the ground following a tackle.
3) Players uses hands to deliberately swat away an aerial ball.
4) Player deliberately uses hands to stop the ball going into his own net.
Thinking of 4, I think that would be the only situation where I'd allow an accidental handball to given as a penalty. If the ball is clearly about to go into the net but for contact with the defender's hand, then even ifI gave a concrete example - player in a free-kick wall, raising his hands, but turning away from the ball, so not 'deliberately' handling it,
accidental that should be an offence. I'd even go as far as removing the requirement for a penalty in those situations and simply award the attacking team a goal, much like the goal tending rule in basketball.
should the shot indeed go off his arms. Would that be OK with you? Because nowhere in your above suggestions would that be forbidden.
Ciao,
Werner
On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 4:39:39 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 12:02:50 AM UTC+2, Real Mardin wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:21:01 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 12:02:16 AM UTC+2, Real Mardin wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 10:49:27 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:28:12 PM UTC+2, Blueshirt wrote:
Yeah, the VAR call was right by the law as it stands, the hand clearly
moved the ball... but that law around unintentional hand ball isn't
really fair and it needs to be changed.
I have absolutely no qualms regarding the penalty. The ball was in front of Biraghi and
if he hadn't punched it out of the air....
He didn't "punch" the ball, his hand and the ball collided as he ran toward it.Which had what effect on the ball? Something like being punched?
Obviously as a defender he has to run toward the ball, that's his job.
It's Biraghi's job as a professional defender to know where the ball is and where his hands
are, not the referee's job to read Biraghi's mind to see whether he handled it unintentionally.
No, but the referee is supposed to make a determination as to whether Biraghi's body was in an unnatural position and at the risk of sounding like a broken record
in the context of a player running I don't see how you can say his body was in an unnatural position.
We can agree to disagree about the decision, but I hope we can all agree the current handball rules are nonsense and need reforming.
What reforms would you suggest?
I'm afraid my view is intent needs to be a crucial element of handball calls. Eg, there would be no more accidental handball calls. If that entails a referee having to analyse VAR footage for a few minutes to make a
judgement as to whether a player's body position suggests the handball was intentional then so be it. I'd much prefer that than a team being handed (excuse the pun) a European trophy because of the sort of
ridiculous decision we saw yesterday.
Essentially the only handball decisions that should be called are:
1) Player picks up the ball
2) Player deliberately controls the ball with his hands, eg if he is on the ground following a tackle.
3) Players uses hands to deliberately swat away an aerial ball.
4) Player deliberately uses hands to stop the ball going into his own net.
Thinking of 4, I think that would be the only situation where I'd allow an accidental handball to given as a penalty. If the ball is clearly about to go into the net but for contact with the defender's hand, then even ifI gave a concrete example - player in a free-kick wall, raising his hands, but turning away from the ball, so not 'deliberately' handling it,
accidental that should be an offence. I'd even go as far as removing the requirement for a penalty in those situations and simply award the attacking team a goal, much like the goal tending rule in basketball.
should the shot indeed go off his arms. Would that be OK with you? Because nowhere in your above suggestions would that be forbidden.
Ciao,
Werner
In that instance the ref would have to watch the replay and make a judgment call as to whether the position of the hand was
deliberate. I guess it would depend what position the hands were raised in. If someone turns away from the ball I don't really
know why their hands would be raised in front of them
so I guess I'd call that as deliberate and give the handball, but it depends on the video.
On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 4:47:08 PM UTC+2, Futbolmetrix wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 6:21:01 PM UTC-4, Werner Pichler wrote:
What reforms would you suggest?
I'm OK with going back to the referees doing mind reading. And if some players are really good at flailing their arms and make it look unintentional, good for them.I daresay they already are. I do feel that for some reason it's much more often a defender than an attacker that's 'unintentionally' handling a ball in the box.
On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 6:54:49 PM UTC+2, Real Mardin wrote:
On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 4:39:39 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 12:02:50 AM UTC+2, Real Mardin wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:21:01 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
On Thursday, June 8, 2023 at 12:02:16 AM UTC+2, Real Mardin wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 10:49:27 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:28:12 PM UTC+2, Blueshirt wrote:
Yeah, the VAR call was right by the law as it stands, the hand clearly
moved the ball... but that law around unintentional hand ball isn't
really fair and it needs to be changed.
I have absolutely no qualms regarding the penalty. The ball was in front of Biraghi and
if he hadn't punched it out of the air....
He didn't "punch" the ball, his hand and the ball collided as he ran toward it.Which had what effect on the ball? Something like being punched?
Obviously as a defender he has to run toward the ball, that's his job.
It's Biraghi's job as a professional defender to know where the ball is and where his hands
are, not the referee's job to read Biraghi's mind to see whether he handled it unintentionally.
No, but the referee is supposed to make a determination as to whether Biraghi's body was in an unnatural position and at the risk of sounding like a broken record
in the context of a player running I don't see how you can say his body was in an unnatural position.
We can agree to disagree about the decision, but I hope we can all agree the current handball rules are nonsense and need reforming.
What reforms would you suggest?
I'm afraid my view is intent needs to be a crucial element of handball calls. Eg, there would be no more accidental handball calls. If that entails a referee having to analyse VAR footage for a few minutes to make a
judgement as to whether a player's body position suggests the handball was intentional then so be it. I'd much prefer that than a team being handed (excuse the pun) a European trophy because of the sort of
ridiculous decision we saw yesterday.
Essentially the only handball decisions that should be called are:
1) Player picks up the ball
2) Player deliberately controls the ball with his hands, eg if he is on the ground following a tackle.
3) Players uses hands to deliberately swat away an aerial ball.
4) Player deliberately uses hands to stop the ball going into his own net.
Thinking of 4, I think that would be the only situation where I'd allow an accidental handball to given as a penalty. If the ball is clearly about to go into the net but for contact with the defender's hand, then even ifI gave a concrete example - player in a free-kick wall, raising his hands, but turning away from the ball, so not 'deliberately' handling it,
accidental that should be an offence. I'd even go as far as removing the requirement for a penalty in those situations and simply award the attacking team a goal, much like the goal tending rule in basketball.
should the shot indeed go off his arms. Would that be OK with you? Because nowhere in your above suggestions would that be forbidden.
Ciao,
Werner
In that instance the ref would have to watch the replay and make a judgment call as to whether the position of the hand wasTo increase the chances of blocking the ball.
deliberate. I guess it would depend what position the hands were raised in. If someone turns away from the ball I don't really
know why their hands would be raised in front of them
so I guess I'd call that as deliberate and give the handball, but it depends on the video.So the referee would need to make a judgement call depending on whether he thinks it was a deliberate movement?
Where's the difference to the rule as it is?
Ciao,
Werner
On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 12:04:39 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 6:54:49 PM UTC+2, Real Mardin wrote:
On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 4:39:39 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 12:02:50 AM UTC+2, Real Mardin wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:21:01 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
What reforms would you suggest?
I'm afraid my view is intent needs to be a crucial element of handball calls. Eg, there would be no more accidental
handball calls. If that entails a referee having to analyse VAR footage for a few minutes to make a judgement as to
whether a player's body position suggests the handball was intentional then so be it. I'd much prefer that than a team
being handed (excuse the pun) a European trophy because of the sort of ridiculous decision we saw yesterday.
Essentially the only handball decisions that should be called are:
1) Player picks up the ball
2) Player deliberately controls the ball with his hands, eg if he is on the ground following a tackle.
3) Players uses hands to deliberately swat away an aerial ball.
4) Player deliberately uses hands to stop the ball going into his own net.
Thinking of 4, I think that would be the only situation where I'd allow an accidental handball to given as a penalty. If the
ball is clearly about to go into the net but for contact with the defender's hand, then even if accidental that should be
an offence. I'd even go as far as removing the requirement for a penalty in those situations and simply award the
attacking team a goal, much like the goal tending rule in basketball.
I gave a concrete example - player in a free-kick wall, raising his hands, but turning away from the ball, so not
'deliberately' handling it, should the shot indeed go off his arms. Would that be OK with you? Because nowhere in your
above suggestions would that be forbidden.
In that instance the ref would have to watch the replay and make a judgment call as to whether the position of the hand
was deliberate. I guess it would depend what position the hands were raised in. If someone turns away from the ball I
don't really know why their hands would be raised in front of them.
To increase the chances of blocking the ball.
so I guess I'd call that as deliberate and give the handball, but it depends on the video.
So the referee would need to make a judgement call depending on whether he thinks it was a deliberate movement?
Where's the difference to the rule as it is?
I agree the two rules are similar in so far as the ref has to make a judgement call, but what they're being asked to judge is
different. Whether someone deliberately handled the ball is different and I think easier to ascertain than the current test of
whether the body is an unnatural position, which is almost impossible given that two different people will have different
postures, mannerisms, jumping styles etc.
On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:12:31 PM UTC+2, Real Mardin wrote:
On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 12:04:39 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 6:54:49 PM UTC+2, Real Mardin wrote:
On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 4:39:39 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 12:02:50 AM UTC+2, Real Mardin wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:21:01 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
What reforms would you suggest?
I'm afraid my view is intent needs to be a crucial element of handball calls. Eg, there would be no more accidental
handball calls. If that entails a referee having to analyse VAR footage for a few minutes to make a judgement as to
whether a player's body position suggests the handball was intentional then so be it. I'd much prefer that than a team
being handed (excuse the pun) a European trophy because of the sort of ridiculous decision we saw yesterday.
Essentially the only handball decisions that should be called are:
1) Player picks up the ball
2) Player deliberately controls the ball with his hands, eg if he is on the ground following a tackle.
3) Players uses hands to deliberately swat away an aerial ball.
4) Player deliberately uses hands to stop the ball going into his own net.
Thinking of 4, I think that would be the only situation where I'd allow an accidental handball to given as a penalty. If the
ball is clearly about to go into the net but for contact with the defender's hand, then even if accidental that should be
an offence. I'd even go as far as removing the requirement for a penalty in those situations and simply award the
attacking team a goal, much like the goal tending rule in basketball.
I gave a concrete example - player in a free-kick wall, raising his hands, but turning away from the ball, so not
'deliberately' handling it, should the shot indeed go off his arms. Would that be OK with you? Because nowhere in your
above suggestions would that be forbidden.
In that instance the ref would have to watch the replay and make a judgment call as to whether the position of the hand
was deliberate. I guess it would depend what position the hands were raised in. If someone turns away from the ball I
don't really know why their hands would be raised in front of them.
To increase the chances of blocking the ball.
so I guess I'd call that as deliberate and give the handball, but it depends on the video.
So the referee would need to make a judgement call depending on whether he thinks it was a deliberate movement?
Where's the difference to the rule as it is?
I agree the two rules are similar in so far as the ref has to make a judgement call, but what they're being asked to judge isI guess that's where we disagree - I see it as a much more difficult, nigh impossible, proposition
different. Whether someone deliberately handled the ball is different and I think easier to ascertain than the current test of
whether the body is an unnatural position, which is almost impossible given that two different people will have different
postures, mannerisms, jumping styles etc.
to determine 'intent' rather than 'unnatural position' (although admittedly that's not easy either).
And we still haven't touched the issue of willful negligence - is it really OK to handle the ball if
I deliberately don't care whether or not I'm handling the ball? You seem to think yes, IFAB (and me)
definitely think no.
I always like to bring up the very comparable example of the foot rule in field hockey - in
the FIH rules it says (9.11)
'Field players must not stop, kick, propel, pick up, throw or carry the ball with any part of their body.'
And in the clarifications to this rule:
'It is not always an offence if the ball hits the foot, hand or body of a field player. The player only
commits an offence if they gain an advantage or if they position themselves with the intention of
stopping the ball in this way.'
What it boils down to is that it's become part and parcel of any field hockey player to possess
the skill to not touch the ball with anything except his stick, especially when it travels towards
goal, and if necessary simply get out of the way, in order to avoid penalty corners, or even penalty
strokes.
And for large parts, it works that way well, even though field hockey is a much faster sport than
football. So I really don't think it's too much to ask of professional football defenders either.
On Tuesday, June 13, 2023 at 12:32:53 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 11:12:31 PM UTC+2, Real Mardin wrote:
On Monday, June 12, 2023 at 12:04:39 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 6:54:49 PM UTC+2, Real Mardin wrote:
On Saturday, June 10, 2023 at 4:39:39 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
On Friday, June 9, 2023 at 12:02:50 AM UTC+2, Real Mardin wrote:
On Wednesday, June 7, 2023 at 11:21:01 PM UTC+1, Werner Pichler wrote:
What reforms would you suggest?
I'm afraid my view is intent needs to be a crucial element of handball calls. Eg, there would be no more accidental
handball calls. If that entails a referee having to analyse VAR footage for a few minutes to make a judgement as to
whether a player's body position suggests the handball was intentional then so be it. I'd much prefer that than a team
being handed (excuse the pun) a European trophy because of the sort of ridiculous decision we saw yesterday.
Essentially the only handball decisions that should be called are:
1) Player picks up the ball
2) Player deliberately controls the ball with his hands, eg if he is on the ground following a tackle.
3) Players uses hands to deliberately swat away an aerial ball.
4) Player deliberately uses hands to stop the ball going into his own net.
Thinking of 4, I think that would be the only situation where I'd allow an accidental handball to given as a penalty. If the
ball is clearly about to go into the net but for contact with the defender's hand, then even if accidental that should be
an offence. I'd even go as far as removing the requirement for a penalty in those situations and simply award the
attacking team a goal, much like the goal tending rule in basketball.
I gave a concrete example - player in a free-kick wall, raising his hands, but turning away from the ball, so not
'deliberately' handling it, should the shot indeed go off his arms. Would that be OK with you? Because nowhere in your
above suggestions would that be forbidden.
In that instance the ref would have to watch the replay and make a judgment call as to whether the position of the hand
was deliberate. I guess it would depend what position the hands were raised in. If someone turns away from the ball I
don't really know why their hands would be raised in front of them.
To increase the chances of blocking the ball.
so I guess I'd call that as deliberate and give the handball, but it depends on the video.
So the referee would need to make a judgement call depending on whether he thinks it was a deliberate movement?
Where's the difference to the rule as it is?
I agree the two rules are similar in so far as the ref has to make a judgement call, but what they're being asked to judge isI guess that's where we disagree - I see it as a much more difficult, nigh impossible, proposition
different. Whether someone deliberately handled the ball is different and I think easier to ascertain than the current test of
whether the body is an unnatural position, which is almost impossible given that two different people will have different
postures, mannerisms, jumping styles etc.
to determine 'intent' rather than 'unnatural position' (although admittedly that's not easy either).
And we still haven't touched the issue of willful negligence - is it really OK to handle the ball if
I deliberately don't care whether or not I'm handling the ball? You seem to think yes, IFAB (and me)
definitely think no.
I always like to bring up the very comparable example of the foot rule in field hockey - in
the FIH rules it says (9.11)
'Field players must not stop, kick, propel, pick up, throw or carry the ball with any part of their body.'
And in the clarifications to this rule:
'It is not always an offence if the ball hits the foot, hand or body of a field player. The player only
commits an offence if they gain an advantage or if they position themselves with the intention of
stopping the ball in this way.'
What it boils down to is that it's become part and parcel of any field hockey player to possess
the skill to not touch the ball with anything except his stick, especially when it travels towards
goal, and if necessary simply get out of the way, in order to avoid penalty corners, or even penalty
strokes.
And for large parts, it works that way well, even though field hockey is a much faster sport than
football. So I really don't think it's too much to ask of professional football defenders either.
Interesting. Is a similar rule workable in football though? Given a football is considerably bigger than a hockey ball and the
tendency for the ball to be kicked at a height similar to a player's hand.
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