• Proposed FISA rule changes

    From RS@21:1/5 to All on Thu Dec 10 13:07:41 2020
    I notice that the October 2020 congress proposed a few changes to the rules. One that caught my eye possible because it is rule one and I did read that far was the deletion of the word "Displacement" in the definition of rowing, so rule 1 now reads as
    below. Does this matter, why the proposed change?

    Rowing is the propulsion of a boat, with or
    without coxswain, by the muscular force of one or more
    rowers, using oars as simple levers of the second order and
    sitting with their backs to the direction of movement of the boat.
    Rowing on a machine or in a tank which simulates the action of
    rowing in a boat is also considered as rowing.

    A rowing regatta is a sporting competition consisting of one or
    more events divided, if necessary, into a number of races, in
    one or more classes of boats for rowers divided, as a general
    rule, into different categories of gender, age or weight.

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  • From carl@21:1/5 to All on Fri Dec 11 15:06:36 2020
    On 10/12/2020 21:07, RS wrote:
    I notice that the October 2020 congress proposed a few changes to the rules. One that caught my eye possible because it is rule one and I did read that far was the deletion of the word "Displacement" in the definition of rowing, so rule 1 now reads as
    below. Does this matter, why the proposed change?

    Rowing is the propulsion of a boat, with or
    without coxswain, by the muscular force of one or more
    rowers, using oars as simple levers of the second order and
    sitting with their backs to the direction of movement of the boat.
    Rowing on a machine or in a tank which simulates the action of
    rowing in a boat is also considered as rowing.

    A rowing regatta is a sporting competition consisting of one or
    more events divided, if necessary, into a number of races, in
    one or more classes of boats for rowers divided, as a general
    rule, into different categories of gender, age or weight.


    So let's go hydrofoiling?

    And is an oar really a "simple 2nd-order lever", since it's supposed
    pivot point or fulcrum moves in & through the water such an obvious loop
    & has a centre of effort whose location on the blade constantly varies?

    Cheers -
    Carl

    --
    Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
    Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
    Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
    Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
    Email: carl@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
    URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells

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  • From RS@21:1/5 to carl on Tue Dec 15 13:19:25 2020
    On Friday, December 11, 2020 at 10:06:29 AM UTC-5, carl wrote:
    On 10/12/2020 21:07, RS wrote:
    I notice that the October 2020 congress proposed a few changes to the rules. One that caught my eye possible because it is rule one and I did read that far was the deletion of the word "Displacement" in the definition of rowing, so rule 1 now reads
    as below. Does this matter, why the proposed change?

    Rowing is the propulsion of a boat, with or
    without coxswain, by the muscular force of one or more
    rowers, using oars as simple levers of the second order and
    sitting with their backs to the direction of movement of the boat.
    Rowing on a machine or in a tank which simulates the action of
    rowing in a boat is also considered as rowing.

    A rowing regatta is a sporting competition consisting of one or
    more events divided, if necessary, into a number of races, in
    one or more classes of boats for rowers divided, as a general
    rule, into different categories of gender, age or weight.

    So let's go hydrofoiling?

    And is an oar really a "simple 2nd-order lever", since it's supposed
    pivot point or fulcrum moves in & through the water such an obvious loop
    & has a centre of effort whose location on the blade constantly varies?

    Cheers -
    Carl

    --
    Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
    Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
    Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
    Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
    Email: ca...@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
    URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells

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    I guess that's my point, why remove the word "displacement" unless you want to open rowing up to other forms of hull?

    Roger

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  • From lladnarnai@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Wed Dec 16 14:49:43 2020
    Greetings Roger,

    Your keen observation pricked my interest so I checked in with Paul Fuchs of FISA Equipment Committee, who responded.

    "This was caught earlier but is not in the version now on the website.
    IIRC it has been moved to the appendix in the boat definition.
    We will still be rowing displacement boats."

    He did add in our correspondence that there may be a place for an exhibition race of various types of boats.
    I simply love the way America's Cup progressed to foils and the AC75 are simply incredible. I too believe that an exhibition of foiling rowing boats would certainly plant the seed of innovation in the next generation of rowers.

    Foils are now easily accessible and could easily be adapted from SURF FOILS or SUP FOILS.

    There was an early rowing foil project from Yale which is well worth looking into.

    May our sport progress and become more open to new ideas.

    Ian Randall

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  • From Kit Davies@21:1/5 to lladn...@gmail.com on Thu Dec 17 10:00:47 2020
    On 16/12/2020 22:49, lladn...@gmail.com wrote:
    Greetings Roger,

    Your keen observation pricked my interest so I checked in with Paul Fuchs of FISA Equipment Committee, who responded.

    "This was caught earlier but is not in the version now on the website.
    IIRC it has been moved to the appendix in the boat definition.
    We will still be rowing displacement boats."

    He did add in our correspondence that there may be a place for an exhibition race of various types of boats.
    I simply love the way America's Cup progressed to foils and the AC75 are simply incredible. I too believe that an exhibition of foiling rowing boats would certainly plant the seed of innovation in the next generation of rowers.

    Foils are now easily accessible and could easily be adapted from SURF FOILS or SUP FOILS.

    There was an early rowing foil project from Yale which is well worth looking into.

    May our sport progress and become more open to new ideas.

    Ian Randall



    Here's one from Delft University, NED. It's 5 years old now and I'm not
    sure if it's still being developed:

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCznVyTLPMH-iE1G3Nr3OJXQ

    Kit

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  • From carl@21:1/5 to Kit Davies on Thu Dec 17 15:19:04 2020
    On 17/12/2020 10:00, Kit Davies wrote:
    On 16/12/2020 22:49, lladn...@gmail.com wrote:
    Greetings Roger,

    Your keen observation pricked my interest so I checked in with Paul
    Fuchs of FISA Equipment Committee, who responded.

    "This was caught earlier but is not in the version now on the website.
    IIRC it has been moved to the appendix in the boat definition.
    We will still be rowing displacement boats."

    He did add in our correspondence that there may be a place for an
    exhibition race of various types of boats.
    I simply love the way America's Cup progressed to foils and the AC75
    are simply incredible. I too believe that an exhibition of foiling
    rowing boats would certainly plant the seed of innovation in the next
    generation of rowers.

    Foils are now easily accessible and could easily be adapted from SURF
    FOILS or SUP FOILS.

    There was an early rowing foil project from Yale which is well worth
    looking into.

    May our sport progress and become more open to new ideas.

    Ian Randall



    Here's one from Delft University, NED. It's 5 years old now and I'm not
    sure if it's still being developed:

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCznVyTLPMH-iE1G3Nr3OJXQ

    Kit

    Perhaps the first venture into foiling in rowing was by James Grogono
    around 1970. James (a surgeon) was a leading light in speed sailing &
    you can read about him here:
    http://2014.foilingweek.com/people/james-grogono/
    He added foils to a single, with a ride-height control system based on a pivoted spoon which skimmed the water surface.

    James also had input into the UK's '87/88 Little America's Cup
    challenge, for which my firm built the whole boat - hulls, beams,
    split-flap wingsail & for'd-raked carbon dagger-boards.

    The Yale experiment was possibly the most successful flying 1x, but one
    of our Dutch clients has fitted foils to his boat & had it flying under reasonable control.

    As you see with the Delft University project, there's a high drag
    penalty to overcome before getting enough speed to fully foil, & the intermittent power application of rowing may not be best suited to the
    needs of foiling.

    An impressive version of human-powered foiling craft is seen in Mark
    Drela's "Decavitator", with a record speed of 9.53m/s (50% faster than
    any racing eight):
    http://human-powered-hydrofoils.com/hydrofoils/decavitator/

    And then there's the Flyak: http://human-powered-hydrofoils.com/hydrofoils/hydrofoil-kayak-flyak/
    also faster than an eight.

    Plus any number of foiling bikes with impressive performances but
    sometimes a tendency to sink if you don't keep moving.

    Finally, there are devices such as Trampofoil and Aquaskipper, where by bouncing up & down you generate propulsion & lift from an undulating foil.

    "There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as
    simply messing about in boats" (Kenneth Graham, Wind in the Willows)

    Cheers -
    Carl

    --
    Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
    Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
    Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
    Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
    Email: carl@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
    URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells

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  • From RS@21:1/5 to carl on Thu Dec 17 12:29:58 2020
    On Thursday, December 17, 2020 at 10:19:02 AM UTC-5, carl wrote:
    On 17/12/2020 10:00, Kit Davies wrote:
    On 16/12/2020 22:49, lladn...@gmail.com wrote:
    Greetings Roger,

    Your keen observation pricked my interest so I checked in with Paul
    Fuchs of FISA Equipment Committee, who responded.

    "This was caught earlier but is not in the version now on the website.
    IIRC it has been moved to the appendix in the boat definition.
    We will still be rowing displacement boats."

    He did add in our correspondence that there may be a place for an
    exhibition race of various types of boats.
    I simply love the way America's Cup progressed to foils and the AC75
    are simply incredible. I too believe that an exhibition of foiling
    rowing boats would certainly plant the seed of innovation in the next
    generation of rowers.

    Foils are now easily accessible and could easily be adapted from SURF
    FOILS or SUP FOILS.

    There was an early rowing foil project from Yale which is well worth
    looking into.

    May our sport progress and become more open to new ideas.

    Ian Randall



    Here's one from Delft University, NED. It's 5 years old now and I'm not sure if it's still being developed:

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCznVyTLPMH-iE1G3Nr3OJXQ

    Kit
    Perhaps the first venture into foiling in rowing was by James Grogono
    around 1970. James (a surgeon) was a leading light in speed sailing &
    you can read about him here: http://2014.foilingweek.com/people/james-grogono/
    He added foils to a single, with a ride-height control system based on a pivoted spoon which skimmed the water surface.

    James also had input into the UK's '87/88 Little America's Cup
    challenge, for which my firm built the whole boat - hulls, beams,
    split-flap wingsail & for'd-raked carbon dagger-boards.

    The Yale experiment was possibly the most successful flying 1x, but one
    of our Dutch clients has fitted foils to his boat & had it flying under reasonable control.

    As you see with the Delft University project, there's a high drag
    penalty to overcome before getting enough speed to fully foil, & the intermittent power application of rowing may not be best suited to the
    needs of foiling.

    An impressive version of human-powered foiling craft is seen in Mark
    Drela's "Decavitator", with a record speed of 9.53m/s (50% faster than
    any racing eight): http://human-powered-hydrofoils.com/hydrofoils/decavitator/

    And then there's the Flyak: http://human-powered-hydrofoils.com/hydrofoils/hydrofoil-kayak-flyak/
    also faster than an eight.

    Plus any number of foiling bikes with impressive performances but
    sometimes a tendency to sink if you don't keep moving.

    Finally, there are devices such as Trampofoil and Aquaskipper, where by bouncing up & down you generate propulsion & lift from an undulating foil.

    "There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as
    simply messing about in boats" (Kenneth Graham, Wind in the Willows)
    Cheers -
    Carl

    --
    Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
    Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
    Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
    Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
    Email: ca...@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
    URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells

    ---
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com

    Good to hear we will retain our displacement boats.
    Carl mentioned the AquaSkipper, I briefly owned one in the UK with a friend of mine and we actually got it to work, it is a lot of fun but hard work and once it stops it drops into the water and you have to get back to the shore to launch it again. It
    has a pivoting spoon attached to the front foil to control the height and I guess the angle of the rear foil. What I find interesting about it is that because of the way it's propelled, a sort of bounce up and down by the operator, the speed is a cyclic
    acceleration / deceleration similar to rowing. If the Aquaskipper can work then I'm sure eventually someone will come up with a functioning rowing version.
    RS

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  • From carl@21:1/5 to All on Sat Dec 19 16:29:43 2020
    On 17/12/2020 20:29, RS wrote:
    On Thursday, December 17, 2020 at 10:19:02 AM UTC-5, carl wrote:
    On 17/12/2020 10:00, Kit Davies wrote:
    On 16/12/2020 22:49, lladn...@gmail.com wrote:
    Greetings Roger,

    Your keen observation pricked my interest so I checked in with Paul
    Fuchs of FISA Equipment Committee, who responded.

    "This was caught earlier but is not in the version now on the website. >>>> IIRC it has been moved to the appendix in the boat definition.
    We will still be rowing displacement boats."

    He did add in our correspondence that there may be a place for an
    exhibition race of various types of boats.
    I simply love the way America's Cup progressed to foils and the AC75
    are simply incredible. I too believe that an exhibition of foiling
    rowing boats would certainly plant the seed of innovation in the next
    generation of rowers.

    Foils are now easily accessible and could easily be adapted from SURF
    FOILS or SUP FOILS.

    There was an early rowing foil project from Yale which is well worth
    looking into.

    May our sport progress and become more open to new ideas.

    Ian Randall



    Here's one from Delft University, NED. It's 5 years old now and I'm not
    sure if it's still being developed:

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCznVyTLPMH-iE1G3Nr3OJXQ

    Kit
    Perhaps the first venture into foiling in rowing was by James Grogono
    around 1970. James (a surgeon) was a leading light in speed sailing &
    you can read about him here:
    http://2014.foilingweek.com/people/james-grogono/
    He added foils to a single, with a ride-height control system based on a
    pivoted spoon which skimmed the water surface.

    James also had input into the UK's '87/88 Little America's Cup
    challenge, for which my firm built the whole boat - hulls, beams,
    split-flap wingsail & for'd-raked carbon dagger-boards.

    The Yale experiment was possibly the most successful flying 1x, but one
    of our Dutch clients has fitted foils to his boat & had it flying under
    reasonable control.

    As you see with the Delft University project, there's a high drag
    penalty to overcome before getting enough speed to fully foil, & the
    intermittent power application of rowing may not be best suited to the
    needs of foiling.

    An impressive version of human-powered foiling craft is seen in Mark
    Drela's "Decavitator", with a record speed of 9.53m/s (50% faster than
    any racing eight):
    http://human-powered-hydrofoils.com/hydrofoils/decavitator/

    And then there's the Flyak:
    http://human-powered-hydrofoils.com/hydrofoils/hydrofoil-kayak-flyak/
    also faster than an eight.

    Plus any number of foiling bikes with impressive performances but
    sometimes a tendency to sink if you don't keep moving.

    Finally, there are devices such as Trampofoil and Aquaskipper, where by
    bouncing up & down you generate propulsion & lift from an undulating foil. >>
    "There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as
    simply messing about in boats" (Kenneth Graham, Wind in the Willows)
    Cheers -
    Carl



    Good to hear we will retain our displacement boats.
    Carl mentioned the AquaSkipper, I briefly owned one in the UK with a friend of mine and we actually got it to work, it is a lot of fun but hard work and once it stops it drops into the water and you have to get back to the shore to launch it again. It
    has a pivoting spoon attached to the front foil to control the height and I guess the angle of the rear foil. What I find interesting about it is that because of the way it's propelled, a sort of bounce up and down by the operator, the speed is a cyclic
    acceleration / deceleration similar to rowing. If the Aquaskipper can work then I'm sure eventually someone will come up with a functioning rowing version.
    RS


    Mmm. While the rowing stroke involves a foiling process, it is defined
    by the use of oars. An oscillating foil (per AquaSkipper & Trampofoil)
    is a perfectly viable propulsor - & is enduringly popular among fish and cetaceans - but I've yet to see a system of that kind that would be sufficiently similar to rowing, or as effective, to be accepted by rowers.

    Coracles, of course, are propelled by a (laterally) oscillating action
    with a paddle, & the single oar "sculling over the stern" method is
    handy with dinghies.

    Cheers -
    Carl

    --
    Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
    Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
    Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
    Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
    Email: carl@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
    URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells

    ---
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  • From don Vickers@21:1/5 to carl on Mon Dec 21 14:07:36 2020
    On Saturday, December 19, 2020 at 11:29:34 AM UTC-5, carl wrote:
    On 17/12/2020 20:29, RS wrote:
    On Thursday, December 17, 2020 at 10:19:02 AM UTC-5, carl wrote:
    On 17/12/2020 10:00, Kit Davies wrote:
    On 16/12/2020 22:49, lladn...@gmail.com wrote:
    Greetings Roger,

    Your keen observation pricked my interest so I checked in with Paul >>>> Fuchs of FISA Equipment Committee, who responded.

    "This was caught earlier but is not in the version now on the website. >>>> IIRC it has been moved to the appendix in the boat definition.
    We will still be rowing displacement boats."

    He did add in our correspondence that there may be a place for an
    exhibition race of various types of boats.
    I simply love the way America's Cup progressed to foils and the AC75 >>>> are simply incredible. I too believe that an exhibition of foiling
    rowing boats would certainly plant the seed of innovation in the next >>>> generation of rowers.

    Foils are now easily accessible and could easily be adapted from SURF >>>> FOILS or SUP FOILS.

    There was an early rowing foil project from Yale which is well worth >>>> looking into.

    May our sport progress and become more open to new ideas.

    Ian Randall



    Here's one from Delft University, NED. It's 5 years old now and I'm not >>> sure if it's still being developed:

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCznVyTLPMH-iE1G3Nr3OJXQ

    Kit
    Perhaps the first venture into foiling in rowing was by James Grogono
    around 1970. James (a surgeon) was a leading light in speed sailing &
    you can read about him here:
    http://2014.foilingweek.com/people/james-grogono/
    He added foils to a single, with a ride-height control system based on a >> pivoted spoon which skimmed the water surface.

    James also had input into the UK's '87/88 Little America's Cup
    challenge, for which my firm built the whole boat - hulls, beams,
    split-flap wingsail & for'd-raked carbon dagger-boards.

    The Yale experiment was possibly the most successful flying 1x, but one >> of our Dutch clients has fitted foils to his boat & had it flying under >> reasonable control.

    As you see with the Delft University project, there's a high drag
    penalty to overcome before getting enough speed to fully foil, & the
    intermittent power application of rowing may not be best suited to the
    needs of foiling.

    An impressive version of human-powered foiling craft is seen in Mark
    Drela's "Decavitator", with a record speed of 9.53m/s (50% faster than
    any racing eight):
    http://human-powered-hydrofoils.com/hydrofoils/decavitator/

    And then there's the Flyak:
    http://human-powered-hydrofoils.com/hydrofoils/hydrofoil-kayak-flyak/
    also faster than an eight.

    Plus any number of foiling bikes with impressive performances but
    sometimes a tendency to sink if you don't keep moving.

    Finally, there are devices such as Trampofoil and Aquaskipper, where by >> bouncing up & down you generate propulsion & lift from an undulating foil.

    "There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as
    simply messing about in boats" (Kenneth Graham, Wind in the Willows)
    Cheers -
    Carl



    Good to hear we will retain our displacement boats.
    Carl mentioned the AquaSkipper, I briefly owned one in the UK with a friend of mine and we actually got it to work, it is a lot of fun but hard work and once it stops it drops into the water and you have to get back to the shore to launch it again.
    It has a pivoting spoon attached to the front foil to control the height and I guess the angle of the rear foil. What I find interesting about it is that because of the way it's propelled, a sort of bounce up and down by the operator, the speed is a
    cyclic acceleration / deceleration similar to rowing. If the Aquaskipper can work then I'm sure eventually someone will come up with a functioning rowing version.
    RS

    Mmm. While the rowing stroke involves a foiling process, it is defined
    by the use of oars. An oscillating foil (per AquaSkipper & Trampofoil)
    is a perfectly viable propulsor - & is enduringly popular among fish and cetaceans - but I've yet to see a system of that kind that would be sufficiently similar to rowing, or as effective, to be accepted by rowers.

    Coracles, of course, are propelled by a (laterally) oscillating action
    with a paddle, & the single oar "sculling over the stern" method is
    handy with dinghies.
    Cheers -
    Carl

    --
    Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
    Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
    Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
    Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
    Email: ca...@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682
    URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells

    ---
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com
    Carl,

    I would think the Hobie Mirage drive system might come close. See https://www.hobie.com/miragedrive/ for how it works. I recall about 20 years ago when they introduced it they had tug-a-wars between paddled and peddled boats with the latter winning by
    a significant margin. I have used one and they are very fast and efficient. Certainly not to the effect of an oar but far more than a paddle.

    For what little it might be worth,
    don Vickers

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  • From RS@21:1/5 to don Vickers on Tue Jan 5 13:28:33 2021
    On Monday, December 21, 2020 at 5:07:38 PM UTC-5, don Vickers wrote:
    On Saturday, December 19, 2020 at 11:29:34 AM UTC-5, carl wrote:
    On 17/12/2020 20:29, RS wrote:
    On Thursday, December 17, 2020 at 10:19:02 AM UTC-5, carl wrote:
    On 17/12/2020 10:00, Kit Davies wrote:
    On 16/12/2020 22:49, lladn...@gmail.com wrote:
    Greetings Roger,

    Your keen observation pricked my interest so I checked in with Paul >>>> Fuchs of FISA Equipment Committee, who responded.

    "This was caught earlier but is not in the version now on the website.
    IIRC it has been moved to the appendix in the boat definition.
    We will still be rowing displacement boats."

    He did add in our correspondence that there may be a place for an >>>> exhibition race of various types of boats.
    I simply love the way America's Cup progressed to foils and the AC75 >>>> are simply incredible. I too believe that an exhibition of foiling >>>> rowing boats would certainly plant the seed of innovation in the next >>>> generation of rowers.

    Foils are now easily accessible and could easily be adapted from SURF >>>> FOILS or SUP FOILS.

    There was an early rowing foil project from Yale which is well worth >>>> looking into.

    May our sport progress and become more open to new ideas.

    Ian Randall



    Here's one from Delft University, NED. It's 5 years old now and I'm not
    sure if it's still being developed:

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCznVyTLPMH-iE1G3Nr3OJXQ

    Kit
    Perhaps the first venture into foiling in rowing was by James Grogono >> around 1970. James (a surgeon) was a leading light in speed sailing & >> you can read about him here:
    http://2014.foilingweek.com/people/james-grogono/
    He added foils to a single, with a ride-height control system based on a
    pivoted spoon which skimmed the water surface.

    James also had input into the UK's '87/88 Little America's Cup
    challenge, for which my firm built the whole boat - hulls, beams,
    split-flap wingsail & for'd-raked carbon dagger-boards.

    The Yale experiment was possibly the most successful flying 1x, but one >> of our Dutch clients has fitted foils to his boat & had it flying under >> reasonable control.

    As you see with the Delft University project, there's a high drag
    penalty to overcome before getting enough speed to fully foil, & the
    intermittent power application of rowing may not be best suited to the >> needs of foiling.

    An impressive version of human-powered foiling craft is seen in Mark
    Drela's "Decavitator", with a record speed of 9.53m/s (50% faster than >> any racing eight):
    http://human-powered-hydrofoils.com/hydrofoils/decavitator/

    And then there's the Flyak:
    http://human-powered-hydrofoils.com/hydrofoils/hydrofoil-kayak-flyak/ >> also faster than an eight.

    Plus any number of foiling bikes with impressive performances but
    sometimes a tendency to sink if you don't keep moving.

    Finally, there are devices such as Trampofoil and Aquaskipper, where by >> bouncing up & down you generate propulsion & lift from an undulating foil.

    "There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as
    simply messing about in boats" (Kenneth Graham, Wind in the Willows)
    Cheers -
    Carl



    Good to hear we will retain our displacement boats.
    Carl mentioned the AquaSkipper, I briefly owned one in the UK with a friend of mine and we actually got it to work, it is a lot of fun but hard work and once it stops it drops into the water and you have to get back to the shore to launch it again.
    It has a pivoting spoon attached to the front foil to control the height and I guess the angle of the rear foil. What I find interesting about it is that because of the way it's propelled, a sort of bounce up and down by the operator, the speed is a
    cyclic acceleration / deceleration similar to rowing. If the Aquaskipper can work then I'm sure eventually someone will come up with a functioning rowing version.
    RS

    Mmm. While the rowing stroke involves a foiling process, it is defined
    by the use of oars. An oscillating foil (per AquaSkipper & Trampofoil)
    is a perfectly viable propulsor - & is enduringly popular among fish and cetaceans - but I've yet to see a system of that kind that would be sufficiently similar to rowing, or as effective, to be accepted by rowers.

    Coracles, of course, are propelled by a (laterally) oscillating action with a paddle, & the single oar "sculling over the stern" method is
    handy with dinghies.
    Cheers -
    Carl

    --
    Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
    Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
    Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
    Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
    Email: ca...@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682 URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells

    ---
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com
    Carl,

    I would think the Hobie Mirage drive system might come close. See https://www.hobie.com/miragedrive/ for how it works. I recall about 20 years ago when they introduced it they had tug-a-wars between paddled and peddled boats with the latter winning by
    a significant margin. I have used one and they are very fast and efficient. Certainly not to the effect of an oar but far more than a paddle.

    For what little it might be worth,
    don Vickers
    In the Town where I grew up (Gosport in Hampshire) there are two small roads in a quiet neighbourhood one called Rattler Road and one called Alecto Road, they commemorate a similar tug of war to prove a point 150+ years ago, on a slightly bigger scale.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Jake Frith@21:1/5 to All on Wed Jan 6 10:02:29 2021
    On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 9:28:34 PM UTC, RS wrote:
    On Monday, December 21, 2020 at 5:07:38 PM UTC-5, don Vickers wrote:
    On Saturday, December 19, 2020 at 11:29:34 AM UTC-5, carl wrote:
    On 17/12/2020 20:29, RS wrote:
    On Thursday, December 17, 2020 at 10:19:02 AM UTC-5, carl wrote:
    On 17/12/2020 10:00, Kit Davies wrote:
    On 16/12/2020 22:49, lladn...@gmail.com wrote:
    Greetings Roger,

    Your keen observation pricked my interest so I checked in with Paul >>>> Fuchs of FISA Equipment Committee, who responded.

    "This was caught earlier but is not in the version now on the website.
    IIRC it has been moved to the appendix in the boat definition.
    We will still be rowing displacement boats."

    He did add in our correspondence that there may be a place for an >>>> exhibition race of various types of boats.
    I simply love the way America's Cup progressed to foils and the AC75
    are simply incredible. I too believe that an exhibition of foiling >>>> rowing boats would certainly plant the seed of innovation in the next
    generation of rowers.

    Foils are now easily accessible and could easily be adapted from SURF
    FOILS or SUP FOILS.

    There was an early rowing foil project from Yale which is well worth
    looking into.

    May our sport progress and become more open to new ideas.

    Ian Randall



    Here's one from Delft University, NED. It's 5 years old now and I'm not
    sure if it's still being developed:

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCznVyTLPMH-iE1G3Nr3OJXQ

    Kit
    Perhaps the first venture into foiling in rowing was by James Grogono >> around 1970. James (a surgeon) was a leading light in speed sailing & >> you can read about him here:
    http://2014.foilingweek.com/people/james-grogono/
    He added foils to a single, with a ride-height control system based on a
    pivoted spoon which skimmed the water surface.

    James also had input into the UK's '87/88 Little America's Cup
    challenge, for which my firm built the whole boat - hulls, beams,
    split-flap wingsail & for'd-raked carbon dagger-boards.

    The Yale experiment was possibly the most successful flying 1x, but one
    of our Dutch clients has fitted foils to his boat & had it flying under
    reasonable control.

    As you see with the Delft University project, there's a high drag
    penalty to overcome before getting enough speed to fully foil, & the >> intermittent power application of rowing may not be best suited to the
    needs of foiling.

    An impressive version of human-powered foiling craft is seen in Mark >> Drela's "Decavitator", with a record speed of 9.53m/s (50% faster than
    any racing eight):
    http://human-powered-hydrofoils.com/hydrofoils/decavitator/

    And then there's the Flyak:
    http://human-powered-hydrofoils.com/hydrofoils/hydrofoil-kayak-flyak/ >> also faster than an eight.

    Plus any number of foiling bikes with impressive performances but
    sometimes a tendency to sink if you don't keep moving.

    Finally, there are devices such as Trampofoil and Aquaskipper, where by
    bouncing up & down you generate propulsion & lift from an undulating foil.

    "There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as >> simply messing about in boats" (Kenneth Graham, Wind in the Willows) >> Cheers -
    Carl



    Good to hear we will retain our displacement boats.
    Carl mentioned the AquaSkipper, I briefly owned one in the UK with a friend of mine and we actually got it to work, it is a lot of fun but hard work and once it stops it drops into the water and you have to get back to the shore to launch it
    again. It has a pivoting spoon attached to the front foil to control the height and I guess the angle of the rear foil. What I find interesting about it is that because of the way it's propelled, a sort of bounce up and down by the operator, the speed is
    a cyclic acceleration / deceleration similar to rowing. If the Aquaskipper can work then I'm sure eventually someone will come up with a functioning rowing version.
    RS

    Mmm. While the rowing stroke involves a foiling process, it is defined by the use of oars. An oscillating foil (per AquaSkipper & Trampofoil) is a perfectly viable propulsor - & is enduringly popular among fish and cetaceans - but I've yet to see a system of that kind that would be sufficiently similar to rowing, or as effective, to be accepted by rowers.

    Coracles, of course, are propelled by a (laterally) oscillating action with a paddle, & the single oar "sculling over the stern" method is handy with dinghies.
    Cheers -
    Carl

    --
    Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
    Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
    Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
    Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
    Email: ca...@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682 URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells

    ---
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com
    Carl,

    I would think the Hobie Mirage drive system might come close. See https://www.hobie.com/miragedrive/ for how it works. I recall about 20 years ago when they introduced it they had tug-a-wars between paddled and peddled boats with the latter winning
    by a significant margin. I have used one and they are very fast and efficient. Certainly not to the effect of an oar but far more than a paddle.

    For what little it might be worth,
    don Vickers
    In the Town where I grew up (Gosport in Hampshire) there are two small roads in a quiet neighbourhood one called Rattler Road and one called Alecto Road, they commemorate a similar tug of war to prove a point 150+ years ago, on a slightly bigger scale.

    In the town where I am struggling to grow up (Hamble in Hampshire) there is a loft full of random, but interesting nautical bits and pieces, including, but not limited to a 15 year old Aquaskipper.

    As Roger points out, although a bit of fun on a sunny day, it is of little use as it is as a viable recreation/ training device due to its impossibility of relaunching from deep water. After every dismount (of which there are many), one has to splutter
    to the edge, swimming with the partially submerged aluminium climbing frame (which hopefully hasn't snapped this time) and find a handy dock (of precisely the right height, give or take a couple of inches) to relaunch from. I have had plans for it for
    some time though, and had two attempts (so far) at getting rowing boats to foil with it, but there just isn't the power to get it going fast enough to overcome all the appendage drag when its off foil, to get it to climb up on foil.

    Once on foil it would not be solely propelled by the oars though. Because it normally gets its propulsion from describing a whales tail type oscillation up and down a few inches in the water (by rhyhmically weighting and unweighting the main foil), a lot
    of the usually unwanted, waste pitch motion of a normal, (displacement) rowing shell could be captured and used for forward propulsion! It would be the first rowing boat that would actively reward rushing the slide! Once the boat is on the foils it would
    only be about 5 or 6 feet long so the formerly 'waste' fore and aft pitching would of course be much more then a normal boat.

    The technology partially exhibited by the Aquaskipper has enormous potential as far as I'm concerned. The clever bit is the Shutt Strut at the front (Designed a long time ago by Sidney? Shutt of MIT/ NASA if memory serves me). It is a surface running (
    planing) shoe on a rigid linkage to a front foil. I've played with it a lot off the side of moving boats. You can submerge this part and pull it through the water and observe the results. If you ballast and buoy the shaft correctly (it isn't as standard
    in the Aquaskipper) and pull it about 3 knots it miraculously sorts itself out an apropriate angle of attack under the water, then starts to produce lift, which once it gets to about 5 knots is prodigiously large, to the extent that you can lean very
    hard on it and it feels like a rock. It is this simple but clever thing, located a few feet in front of the main foil that gives the main foil less angle of attack if it is running too high and more angle of attack if it is running too low, while (
    Because it is on a hinge and looks after itself) keeping it's own angle of attack perfect. Because it acts so instantaneously on the angle of attack of the main foil there is no feedback loop (so no porpoising- a common problem with hydrofoil
    technologies).

    It's also the reason why (And CDRS might or might not know this), that if you pull a guy (or girl!) on an Aquaskipper with, say a motorboat, and he has some basic waterskiiing/ starting skills, the thing will pop up with him, even with his lapful of drag
    onto full foil at about 8 mph. It's not a pleasant or very long-lasting waterskiing experience (all flat, high aspect foils lean the 'wrong ' way on turns), but proves a point. You can also surf on one on small waves, glide a surprisingly long way
    without pumping etc. This all makes it interesting as an arrangement of lift foils, quite apart from the spring on the front that allows it to be pumped, and therefore allows the Chinese to make an Aquaskipper out of it etc, which I see as a bit of a
    diversion. A watersports evolutionary dead end, but where would we be if we did not learn from our evolutionary dead ends?
    The Air Chair (a waterskiiing foil device) was a watersports dead end back in the 80s, but look at how a few minor tweaks and more cheaply available carbon fibre 20 years later have brought foiling everythings.

    As far as human powered foling craft are concerned, my view is YES, YES YES! But with a big 'but'. The amount of power needed to get (large slow speed, high aspect) foils foiling is very high, but once up, much much lower. You can use a smaller, less
    efficient, glider type foil that with a vast expenditure of energy a world class athlete can get up on for a few seconds (Youtube Austin Kalama or Kai Lenny's flat water surf foil exploits- or the oft cited Flyak- a K1 on foils). But the problem with
    these is the foil just isn't big enough and therefore creating enough lift for sustained flat water foiling at the sort of slower speeds that are sustainable. It's Catch 22. A foil big enough (an Aquaskipper main foil is 7 feet wide by about 6 inches
    chord) to keep an athlete up for, say, a 60 minute workout, will require so much in the way of struts and will be so deep itself at standstill there is no athlete that there has ever been or ever will be that could produce the few seconds of 2 or 3 hp to
    get it up. Despite the frustrating fact that my mum could probably keep it up on foil once it's up there.

    But add a small motor and battery... And even better a high aspect prop on a shaft that can be lifted out of the water with a quick tug on a string once you're foiling. The 1800W (peak) brushless motor in my ebike is smaller than a can of beans and not
    much heavier. The battery would only need a few minutes run time so the small LIpo RC stuff would cover this. I reckon I could make the battery, shaft, prop, motor and lifting mechanism 4kgs total, and that's with my dubious engineering skills and 12
    foot workshop.

    There's a New Zealand company that's now building a foiling pedal bike with battery assist, so other people are thinking along the same lines- although I don't think it takes its prop/ motor out of the water once its finished with it, which is pretty
    critical, in fact I think it's permament pedal assist, I suspect the motor may have been added to the design when the makers realised that only Mark Cavendish and three of his mates had the necessary power to weight ratios to make it viable.

    But this is where water exercise is going in my view. Look at EMTBs. They are taking over the sport of mountainbiking so fast. They take very little away from the experience, but bring so much to it. People who say it is lazy, have, almost without
    exception, not tried it. All moutainbiking really has to promote the takeup of motors is the uphill bits. Human powered boats have this massive 'uphill' called planing or foiling that once overcome means lovely. fast, efficient progress and smiles all
    round.
    I can give a more direct analogy. There is a deep shingle beach here at Hamble, like 6 inches deep in many places. On a normal MTB, I can, with massive effort do about 8 mph in a low gear, out of the saddle, sprinting, wheelspinning, a broken man for
    about half a minute on this stuff. On my EMTB I give it full throttle for a few seconds, get it up to about 18mph, whereupon it effectively planes on top of the shingle, Its a bit squirrelly and takes some getting used to, and 25mph feels suicidal, but I
    can knock the power right back at 18mph or so and spin along at this speed on very low power assist indefinitely. In fact it was doing this and realising hands on how much power it takes to get upto speed but how little it takes to maintain that speed
    that made me think "this feels just like a boat getting on the plane... Hmmmn..."

    Bringing this back (slightly) towards the OP there will always be elite sport (There won't be battery assist anything at the Olympics any time soon), but on our rivers and waterways some level of electrification to enable sustainable foiling under human
    power must be coming, even if I have to do it myself! Bring it on I say!

    I could write you another few thousand words (but won't today) on the Hobie Mirage Drive also mentioned above and my experiments with that (Greg Ketterman, who designed it is another one on my list of small craft design unsung heros). Google 'Hobie
    Trifoiler' if you want to see what a product 30 years+ ahead of its time looks like! I think he sold about 3 of them, but wow, what a thing!

    A few years ago I aquired a £30 (shoulders delaminated scrap) Burger Shed from someone on here or the rowing Service and glassed a Mirage drive into it to see where it might go. Next stage in that project is lifting the amas an inch or two above the
    water and foil stabilising them and refining, testing the mechanism of handles via turning blocks at the bow, but I keep getting diverted with other projects. It's impressively quick, and the sensation quite pleasing. You pull on the left handle as you
    push with the left leg alongside it, then the same on the right, etc. so an outing on the river is (I fondly imagine) like pulling on a pair of kinky, skintight thigh high boots several hundred times. The Human Powered Boat 24 hour distance world record
    still stands at an average of only approx 5.5 knots and I'm still smarting after the 'first person to sail solo non stop round Britain and Ireland' and 'first person to single scull round the Isle of Wight' attempts, one of which you may well remember.
    Don't hold your breath- the Burgashell THING, is now gone green and on the garage roof. Video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrz7G3_d8iw
    of its first test run before I added the 'kinky boots' mechanism.

    So many projects, but so little time...

    Happy New Year by the way Rog.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy McKenzie@21:1/5 to frit...@googlemail.com on Thu Jan 7 09:12:14 2021
    On Wednesday, 6 January 2021 at 18:02:31 UTC, frit...@googlemail.com wrote:
    On Tuesday, January 5, 2021 at 9:28:34 PM UTC, RS wrote:
    On Monday, December 21, 2020 at 5:07:38 PM UTC-5, don Vickers wrote:
    On Saturday, December 19, 2020 at 11:29:34 AM UTC-5, carl wrote:
    On 17/12/2020 20:29, RS wrote:
    On Thursday, December 17, 2020 at 10:19:02 AM UTC-5, carl wrote:
    On 17/12/2020 10:00, Kit Davies wrote:
    On 16/12/2020 22:49, lladn...@gmail.com wrote:
    Greetings Roger,

    Your keen observation pricked my interest so I checked in with Paul
    Fuchs of FISA Equipment Committee, who responded.

    "This was caught earlier but is not in the version now on the website.
    IIRC it has been moved to the appendix in the boat definition. >>>> We will still be rowing displacement boats."

    He did add in our correspondence that there may be a place for an >>>> exhibition race of various types of boats.
    I simply love the way America's Cup progressed to foils and the AC75
    are simply incredible. I too believe that an exhibition of foiling
    rowing boats would certainly plant the seed of innovation in the next
    generation of rowers.

    Foils are now easily accessible and could easily be adapted from SURF
    FOILS or SUP FOILS.

    There was an early rowing foil project from Yale which is well worth
    looking into.

    May our sport progress and become more open to new ideas.

    Ian Randall



    Here's one from Delft University, NED. It's 5 years old now and I'm not
    sure if it's still being developed:

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCznVyTLPMH-iE1G3Nr3OJXQ

    Kit
    Perhaps the first venture into foiling in rowing was by James Grogono
    around 1970. James (a surgeon) was a leading light in speed sailing &
    you can read about him here:
    http://2014.foilingweek.com/people/james-grogono/
    He added foils to a single, with a ride-height control system based on a
    pivoted spoon which skimmed the water surface.

    James also had input into the UK's '87/88 Little America's Cup
    challenge, for which my firm built the whole boat - hulls, beams, >> split-flap wingsail & for'd-raked carbon dagger-boards.

    The Yale experiment was possibly the most successful flying 1x, but one
    of our Dutch clients has fitted foils to his boat & had it flying under
    reasonable control.

    As you see with the Delft University project, there's a high drag >> penalty to overcome before getting enough speed to fully foil, & the
    intermittent power application of rowing may not be best suited to the
    needs of foiling.

    An impressive version of human-powered foiling craft is seen in Mark
    Drela's "Decavitator", with a record speed of 9.53m/s (50% faster than
    any racing eight):
    http://human-powered-hydrofoils.com/hydrofoils/decavitator/

    And then there's the Flyak:
    http://human-powered-hydrofoils.com/hydrofoils/hydrofoil-kayak-flyak/
    also faster than an eight.

    Plus any number of foiling bikes with impressive performances but >> sometimes a tendency to sink if you don't keep moving.

    Finally, there are devices such as Trampofoil and Aquaskipper, where by
    bouncing up & down you generate propulsion & lift from an undulating foil.

    "There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing as
    simply messing about in boats" (Kenneth Graham, Wind in the Willows)
    Cheers -
    Carl



    Good to hear we will retain our displacement boats.
    Carl mentioned the AquaSkipper, I briefly owned one in the UK with a friend of mine and we actually got it to work, it is a lot of fun but hard work and once it stops it drops into the water and you have to get back to the shore to launch it
    again. It has a pivoting spoon attached to the front foil to control the height and I guess the angle of the rear foil. What I find interesting about it is that because of the way it's propelled, a sort of bounce up and down by the operator, the speed is
    a cyclic acceleration / deceleration similar to rowing. If the Aquaskipper can work then I'm sure eventually someone will come up with a functioning rowing version.
    RS

    Mmm. While the rowing stroke involves a foiling process, it is defined by the use of oars. An oscillating foil (per AquaSkipper & Trampofoil) is a perfectly viable propulsor - & is enduringly popular among fish and
    cetaceans - but I've yet to see a system of that kind that would be sufficiently similar to rowing, or as effective, to be accepted by rowers.

    Coracles, of course, are propelled by a (laterally) oscillating action with a paddle, & the single oar "sculling over the stern" method is handy with dinghies.
    Cheers -
    Carl

    --
    Carl Douglas Racing Shells -
    Fine Small-Boats/AeRoWing Low-drag Riggers/Advanced Accessories
    Write: Harris Boatyard, Laleham Reach, Chertsey KT16 8RP, UK
    Find: tinyurl.com/2tqujf
    Email: ca...@carldouglasrowing.com Tel: +44(0)1932-570946 Fax: -563682 URLs: carldouglasrowing.com & now on Facebook @ CarlDouglasRacingShells

    ---
    This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
    https://www.avg.com
    Carl,

    I would think the Hobie Mirage drive system might come close. See https://www.hobie.com/miragedrive/ for how it works. I recall about 20 years ago when they introduced it they had tug-a-wars between paddled and peddled boats with the latter winning
    by a significant margin. I have used one and they are very fast and efficient. Certainly not to the effect of an oar but far more than a paddle.

    For what little it might be worth,
    don Vickers
    In the Town where I grew up (Gosport in Hampshire) there are two small roads in a quiet neighbourhood one called Rattler Road and one called Alecto Road, they commemorate a similar tug of war to prove a point 150+ years ago, on a slightly bigger
    scale.
    In the town where I am struggling to grow up (Hamble in Hampshire) there is a loft full of random, but interesting nautical bits and pieces, including, but not limited to a 15 year old Aquaskipper.

    As Roger points out, although a bit of fun on a sunny day, it is of little use as it is as a viable recreation/ training device due to its impossibility of relaunching from deep water. After every dismount (of which there are many), one has to splutter
    to the edge, swimming with the partially submerged aluminium climbing frame (which hopefully hasn't snapped this time) and find a handy dock (of precisely the right height, give or take a couple of inches) to relaunch from. I have had plans for it for
    some time though, and had two attempts (so far) at getting rowing boats to foil with it, but there just isn't the power to get it going fast enough to overcome all the appendage drag when its off foil, to get it to climb up on foil.

    Once on foil it would not be solely propelled by the oars though. Because it normally gets its propulsion from describing a whales tail type oscillation up and down a few inches in the water (by rhyhmically weighting and unweighting the main foil), a
    lot of the usually unwanted, waste pitch motion of a normal, (displacement) rowing shell could be captured and used for forward propulsion! It would be the first rowing boat that would actively reward rushing the slide! Once the boat is on the foils it
    would only be about 5 or 6 feet long so the formerly 'waste' fore and aft pitching would of course be much more then a normal boat.

    The technology partially exhibited by the Aquaskipper has enormous potential as far as I'm concerned. The clever bit is the Shutt Strut at the front (Designed a long time ago by Sidney? Shutt of MIT/ NASA if memory serves me). It is a surface running (
    planing) shoe on a rigid linkage to a front foil. I've played with it a lot off the side of moving boats. You can submerge this part and pull it through the water and observe the results. If you ballast and buoy the shaft correctly (it isn't as standard
    in the Aquaskipper) and pull it about 3 knots it miraculously sorts itself out an apropriate angle of attack under the water, then starts to produce lift, which once it gets to about 5 knots is prodigiously large, to the extent that you can lean very
    hard on it and it feels like a rock. It is this simple but clever thing, located a few feet in front of the main foil that gives the main foil less angle of attack if it is running too high and more angle of attack if it is running too low, while (
    Because it is on a hinge and looks after itself) keeping it's own angle of attack perfect. Because it acts so instantaneously on the angle of attack of the main foil there is no feedback loop (so no porpoising- a common problem with hydrofoil
    technologies).

    It's also the reason why (And CDRS might or might not know this), that if you pull a guy (or girl!) on an Aquaskipper with, say a motorboat, and he has some basic waterskiiing/ starting skills, the thing will pop up with him, even with his lapful of
    drag onto full foil at about 8 mph. It's not a pleasant or very long-lasting waterskiing experience (all flat, high aspect foils lean the 'wrong ' way on turns), but proves a point. You can also surf on one on small waves, glide a surprisingly long way
    without pumping etc. This all makes it interesting as an arrangement of lift foils, quite apart from the spring on the front that allows it to be pumped, and therefore allows the Chinese to make an Aquaskipper out of it etc, which I see as a bit of a
    diversion. A watersports evolutionary dead end, but where would we be if we did not learn from our evolutionary dead ends?
    The Air Chair (a waterskiiing foil device) was a watersports dead end back in the 80s, but look at how a few minor tweaks and more cheaply available carbon fibre 20 years later have brought foiling everythings.

    As far as human powered foling craft are concerned, my view is YES, YES YES! But with a big 'but'. The amount of power needed to get (large slow speed, high aspect) foils foiling is very high, but once up, much much lower. You can use a smaller, less
    efficient, glider type foil that with a vast expenditure of energy a world class athlete can get up on for a few seconds (Youtube Austin Kalama or Kai Lenny's flat water surf foil exploits- or the oft cited Flyak- a K1 on foils). But the problem with
    these is the foil just isn't big enough and therefore creating enough lift for sustained flat water foiling at the sort of slower speeds that are sustainable. It's Catch 22. A foil big enough (an Aquaskipper main foil is 7 feet wide by about 6 inches
    chord) to keep an athlete up for, say, a 60 minute workout, will require so much in the way of struts and will be so deep itself at standstill there is no athlete that there has ever been or ever will be that could produce the few seconds of 2 or 3 hp to
    get it up. Despite the frustrating fact that my mum could probably keep it up on foil once it's up there.

    But add a small motor and battery... And even better a high aspect prop on a shaft that can be lifted out of the water with a quick tug on a string once you're foiling. The 1800W (peak) brushless motor in my ebike is smaller than a can of beans and not
    much heavier. The battery would only need a few minutes run time so the small LIpo RC stuff would cover this. I reckon I could make the battery, shaft, prop, motor and lifting mechanism 4kgs total, and that's with my dubious engineering skills and 12
    foot workshop.

    There's a New Zealand company that's now building a foiling pedal bike with battery assist, so other people are thinking along the same lines- although I don't think it takes its prop/ motor out of the water once its finished with it, which is pretty
    critical, in fact I think it's permament pedal assist, I suspect the motor may have been added to the design when the makers realised that only Mark Cavendish and three of his mates had the necessary power to weight ratios to make it viable.

    But this is where water exercise is going in my view. Look at EMTBs. They are taking over the sport of mountainbiking so fast. They take very little away from the experience, but bring so much to it. People who say it is lazy, have, almost without
    exception, not tried it. All moutainbiking really has to promote the takeup of motors is the uphill bits. Human powered boats have this massive 'uphill' called planing or foiling that once overcome means lovely. fast, efficient progress and smiles all
    round.
    I can give a more direct analogy. There is a deep shingle beach here at Hamble, like 6 inches deep in many places. On a normal MTB, I can, with massive effort do about 8 mph in a low gear, out of the saddle, sprinting, wheelspinning, a broken man for
    about half a minute on this stuff. On my EMTB I give it full throttle for a few seconds, get it up to about 18mph, whereupon it effectively planes on top of the shingle, Its a bit squirrelly and takes some getting used to, and 25mph feels suicidal, but I
    can knock the power right back at 18mph or so and spin along at this speed on very low power assist indefinitely. In fact it was doing this and realising hands on how much power it takes to get upto speed but how little it takes to maintain that speed
    that made me think "this feels just like a boat getting on the plane... Hmmmn..."

    Bringing this back (slightly) towards the OP there will always be elite sport (There won't be battery assist anything at the Olympics any time soon), but on our rivers and waterways some level of electrification to enable sustainable foiling under
    human power must be coming, even if I have to do it myself! Bring it on I say!

    I could write you another few thousand words (but won't today) on the Hobie Mirage Drive also mentioned above and my experiments with that (Greg Ketterman, who designed it is another one on my list of small craft design unsung heros). Google 'Hobie
    Trifoiler' if you want to see what a product 30 years+ ahead of its time looks like! I think he sold about 3 of them, but wow, what a thing!

    A few years ago I aquired a £30 (shoulders delaminated scrap) Burger Shed from someone on here or the rowing Service and glassed a Mirage drive into it to see where it might go. Next stage in that project is lifting the amas an inch or two above the
    water and foil stabilising them and refining, testing the mechanism of handles via turning blocks at the bow, but I keep getting diverted with other projects. It's impressively quick, and the sensation quite pleasing. You pull on the left handle as you
    push with the left leg alongside it, then the same on the right, etc. so an outing on the river is (I fondly imagine) like pulling on a pair of kinky, skintight thigh high boots several hundred times. The Human Powered Boat 24 hour distance world record
    still stands at an average of only approx 5.5 knots and I'm still smarting after the 'first person to sail solo non stop round Britain and Ireland' and 'first person to single scull round the Isle of Wight' attempts, one of which you may well remember.
    Don't hold your breath- the Burgashell THING, is now gone green and on the garage roof. Video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrz7G3_d8iw
    of its first test run before I added the 'kinky boots' mechanism.

    So many projects, but so little time...

    Happy New Year by the way Rog.

    Nice video! But the concept of canoes flying around at insane speeds mixing with stiff necked rowers paddling along sedately and oblivious to their oncoming doom is a bit frightening. Still, 2020 was the summer of learning how to row among high densities
    of standup paddle boards, so we should find adding another hazard to the mix simplicity itself.

    Andy

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  • From Jake Frith@21:1/5 to All on Fri Jan 8 07:20:36 2021
    Nice video! But the concept of canoes flying around at insane speeds mixing with stiff necked rowers paddling along sedately and oblivious to their oncoming doom is a bit frightening. Still, 2020 was the summer of learning how to row among high
    densities of standup paddle boards, so we should find adding another hazard to the mix simplicity itself.

    Andy


    As a former sculler who now trains and races on SUPs (due to- probably sculling related- back problems), I distance myself from the usual proponents of SUP (on their £199 off Amazon, inflatable beach toys). They constantly just get in the way, and I'm
    facing the right way, I'd imagine they are quite a pain if you're trying to do proper pieces in a faster boat in a narrower waterway. They don't seem to be paddling most of the time, which I'm afraid makes me regularly wonder "what are they even doing
    out here?".

    Their proliferation and perceived potential risk to the emergency services caused our harboumaster to SHUT the river here to any non commercial users (can he do that? Good question!), during the first lockdown. A stunt that I'm pleased to say has not yet
    been repeated during this one. Although it was 0.0 Celsius yesterday, so apart from me there haven't yet been any takers!

    Indeed yesterday I had the whole river entirely to myself for a 90 minute outing. No yachts, motor boats, anything. Bliss!, although rather painful on the hands, which when I got back I had to wrap around a radiator hose under my car bonnet for a few
    minutes to get the fingers working again enough to operate my roof rack strap buckles so I could put the board back on the roof and drive home.

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