• Re: OT? - Will something like this cause WWIII, or, Dr. Strangelove rev

    From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 16 21:57:44 2023
    On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 12:29:43 AM UTC-7, wrote:
    https://www.reuters.com/world/india/pakistan-rejects-indian-statement-accidental-missile-launch-2022-03-15/

    https://news.yahoo.com/moscow-likely-trying-send-message-162613426.html

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Thu Mar 16 22:22:29 2023
    On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 9:57:47 PM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 12:29:43 AM UTC-7, wrote:

    https://www.reuters.com/world/india/pakistan-rejects-indian-statement-accidental-missile-launch-2022-03-15/

    https://news.yahoo.com/moscow-likely-trying-send-message-162613426.html

    WWIII has already started. No
    need to pretend otherwise.

    dk

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 13 18:04:56 2023
    On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 12:29:43 AM UTC-7, wrote:
    https://www.reuters.com/world/india/pakistan-rejects-indian-statement-accidental-missile-launch-2022-03-15/

    https://news.yahoo.com/russian-jet-fired-british-plane-192140185.html

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 18 08:43:04 2023
    On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 12:29:43 AM UTC-7, wrote:
    https://www.reuters.com/world/india/pakistan-rejects-indian-statement-accidental-missile-launch-2022-03-15/

    https://news.yahoo.com/malfunctioning-missile-stopped-russian-jet-131238316.html

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 18 12:58:02 2023
    On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 12:29:43 AM UTC-7, wrote:
    https://www.reuters.com/world/india/pakistan-rejects-indian-statement-accidental-missile-launch-2022-03-15/

    (Y. upload):

    "Noam Chomsky: Are we close to World War III?"

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 18 13:40:56 2023
    Op dinsdag 18 april 2023 om 21:58:05 UTC+2 schreef gggg gggg:
    On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 12:29:43 AM UTC-7, wrote:
    https://www.reuters.com/world/india/pakistan-rejects-indian-statement-accidental-missile-launch-2022-03-15/
    (Y. upload):

    "Noam Chomsky: Are we close to World War III?"

    Wishful thinking. As Dan said, war already started. Even the Dutch have troops on the ground in Ukraine, although our government assured parliament that we wouldn't do that. If the Democrats stay in power, the war with Russia will continue, if Trump will
    be the next president, the war with China will become an open war.

    Henk

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  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to All on Wed Apr 19 11:53:53 2023
    On 2023-04-18 20:40:56 +0000, HT said:

    Op dinsdag 18 april 2023 om 21:58:05 UTC+2 schreef gggg gggg:
    On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 12:29:43 AM UTC-7, wrote:> >
    https://www.reuters.com/world/india/pakistan-rejects-indian-statement-accidental-missile-launch-2022-03-15/

    (Y. upload):>> "Noam Chomsky: Are we close to World War III?"

    Wishful thinking. As Dan said, war already started. Even the Dutch have troops on the ground in Ukraine, although our government assured
    parliament that we wouldn't do that. If the Democrats stay in power,
    the war with Russia will continue, if Trump will be the next president,
    the war with China will become an open war.



    I'll disagree. My impression of Trump is that he doesn't want any
    wars. It's bad for business. That's not to say he might blunder into
    a war, but isn't Biden doing that now? Biden's comments about Ukraine
    have been more inflammatory than anything else ("Regime change", etc.) Democrats and neo-conservatives (i.e. Never Trumpers) seem to want to
    keep the proxy war machine running at full power.

    -Owen

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Wed Apr 19 13:27:18 2023
    Op woensdag 19 april 2023 om 17:54:02 UTC+2 schreef Owen Hartnett:

    I'll disagree. My impression of Trump is that he doesn't want any
    wars. It's bad for business. That's not to say he might blunder into
    a war, but isn't Biden doing that now? Biden's comments about Ukraine
    have been more inflammatory than anything else ("Regime change", etc.) Democrats and neo-conservatives (i.e. Never Trumpers) seem to want to
    keep the proxy war machine running at full power.

    Recently, Trump gave a speech that didn't make him very popular in the EU. He announced that he would stop participating in the war against Russia. The EU had to pay the bill for that war. Instead, Trump would focus on issues with China.

    Henk

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  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Wed Apr 19 18:45:36 2023
    On Thursday, 20 April 2023 at 06:27:21 UTC+10, HT wrote:
    Op woensdag 19 april 2023 om 17:54:02 UTC+2 schreef Owen Hartnett:

    I'll disagree. My impression of Trump is that he doesn't want any
    wars. It's bad for business. That's not to say he might blunder into
    a war, but isn't Biden doing that now? Biden's comments about Ukraine
    have been more inflammatory than anything else ("Regime change", etc.) Democrats and neo-conservatives (i.e. Never Trumpers) seem to want to
    keep the proxy war machine running at full power.
    Recently, Trump gave a speech that didn't make him very popular in the EU.

    Was he ever popular in Europe? News to me.
    Even more amazing is that he was popular anywhere.
    Sad times.

    Ray Hall, Taree

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  • From Gerard@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 20 00:31:02 2023
    Op donderdag 20 april 2023 om 03:45:38 UTC+2 schreef raymond....@gmail.com:
    On Thursday, 20 April 2023 at 06:27:21 UTC+10, HT wrote:
    Op woensdag 19 april 2023 om 17:54:02 UTC+2 schreef Owen Hartnett:

    I'll disagree. My impression of Trump is that he doesn't want any
    wars. It's bad for business. That's not to say he might blunder into
    a war, but isn't Biden doing that now? Biden's comments about Ukraine have been more inflammatory than anything else ("Regime change", etc.) Democrats and neo-conservatives (i.e. Never Trumpers) seem to want to keep the proxy war machine running at full power.
    Recently, Trump gave a speech that didn't make him very popular in the EU.
    Was he ever popular in Europe? News to me.
    Even more amazing is that he was popular anywhere.
    Sad times.

    Ray Hall, Taree

    Indeed. He did everything to make him unpopular everywhere. Only the republicans did not notice.

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 20 02:07:35 2023
    Op donderdag 20 april 2023 om 03:45:38 UTC+2 schreef raymond....@gmail.com:

    Recently, Trump gave a speech that didn't make him very popular in the EU.
    Was he ever popular in Europe? News to me.
    Even more amazing is that he was popular anywhere.
    Sad times.

    Every American president in office is popular in the EU. We are like the Minions: looking for a leader (in our case not necessarily the most evil one in history). From our leaders, we accept everything, except for the fact that they don't want to lead us.

    Henk

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  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 20 06:59:42 2023
    On Thursday, 20 April 2023 at 19:07:38 UTC+10, HT wrote:
    Op donderdag 20 april 2023 om 03:45:38 UTC+2 schreef raymond....gmail.com:
    Recently, Trump gave a speech that didn't make him very popular in the EU.
    Was he ever popular in Europe? News to me.
    Even more amazing is that he was popular anywhere.
    Sad times.
    Every American president in office is popular in the EU. We are like the Minions: looking for a leader (in our case not necessarily the most evil one in history). From our leaders, we accept everything, except for the fact that they don't want to lead
    us.

    Henk

    Hogwash. This may have been the case, but recent developments, over the last 2-3 decades, is indicative of a shift in perspective. To say that a piece of garbage such as Trump is popular in the EU is beyond belief. The EU only looks to the US because of
    its military strength, for the simple reason it changed the outcome of WWII, not forgetting the resistance shown by Russia as well. But times have changed drastically. Some US presidents were admired for sure because of their personality and perceived
    beliefs, and because of their strong belief in democracy, but this seems no longer the case. Biden is too old, and who is going to represent wisdom and restraint going forward is difficult to imagine. Merkel became, for the EU, a leader of some stature,
    and now the EU, like the US, awaits some kind of strong replacement in mature leadership.

    Meanwhile China looks on like a fox in front of a henhouse.

    Ray Hall, Taree

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  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 20 13:39:13 2023
    On 2023-04-19 20:27:18 +0000, HT said:

    Op woensdag 19 april 2023 om 17:54:02 UTC+2 schreef Owen Hartnett:

    I'll disagree. My impression of Trump is that he doesn't want any
    wars. It's bad for business. That's not to say he might blunder into
    a war, but isn't Biden doing that now? Biden's comments about Ukraine
    have been more inflammatory than anything else ("Regime change", etc.)
    Democrats and neo-conservatives (i.e. Never Trumpers) seem to want to
    keep the proxy war machine running at full power.

    Recently, Trump gave a speech that didn't make him very popular in the
    EU. He announced that he would stop participating in the war against
    Russia. The EU had to pay the bill for that war. Instead, Trump would
    focus on issues with China.




    Trump has always been upfront that the US doesn't need to go into an
    "endless war" to get what it needs from other countries. He's focusing
    about economic issues, not physical might. Trump is first and foremost
    a friend of business, which is why the country did so well economically
    when he started. Wars are bad for normal business, only good for the
    defense industry. A war with Russia that ends in the collapse in the
    Russian government might be Joe Biden's top of the wish list, but that
    would make China even more wary of a more powerful USA.

    A negotiated settlement between Ukraine and Russia would be the best
    possible outcome and save probably hundreds of thousands of lives.

    China is mostly tolerant of the situation in Taiwan because of fear of
    the US, but, in some respects, China can save face by pretending Taiwan
    is already part of China, and the US can pretend that it isn't. It's
    when this balance is tipped, that China starts getting edgy.

    -Owen

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Thu Apr 20 14:07:11 2023
    On 4/20/2023 1:39 PM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-04-19 20:27:18 +0000, HT said:

    Op woensdag 19 april 2023 om 17:54:02 UTC+2 schreef Owen Hartnett:

    I'll disagree. My impression of Trump is that he doesn't want any
    wars. It's bad for business. That's not to say he might blunder into
    a war, but isn't Biden doing that now? Biden's comments about Ukraine
    have been more inflammatory than anything else ("Regime change", etc.)
    Democrats and neo-conservatives (i.e. Never Trumpers) seem to want to
    keep the proxy war machine running at full power.

    Recently, Trump gave a speech that didn't make him very popular in the EU. He announced that he would stop participating in the war against Russia. The EU had to pay the bill for that war. Instead, Trump would focus on issues with China.




    Trump has always been upfront that the US doesn't need to go into an "endless war" to get what it needs from other countries.  He's focusing about economic issues, not physical might.  Trump is first and foremost a friend of business, which is why
    the country did so well economically when he started.  Wars are bad for normal business, only good for the defense industry.  A war with Russia that ends in the collapse in the Russian government might be Joe Biden's top of the wish list, but that
    would make China even more wary of a more powerful USA.


    That would be a good thing, no? Unless by "more wary" you mean more likely to strike first. Wishful thinking, perhaps, but I find that implausible.

    A negotiated settlement between Ukraine and Russia would be the best possible outcome and save probably hundreds of thousands of lives.

    China is mostly tolerant of the situation in Taiwan because of fear of the US, but, in some respects, China can save face by pretending Taiwan is already part of China, and the US can pretend that it isn't.  It's when this balance is tipped, that
    China starts getting edgy.

    -Owen


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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 20 11:12:43 2023
    Op donderdag 20 april 2023 om 15:59:45 UTC+2 schreef raymond....@gmail.com:

    Hogwash. This may have been the case, but recent developments, over the last 2-3 decades, is indicative > of a shift in perspective.

    The shift in perspective has been initiated in the US, not the EU. Since Eastern Europe has become or will become part of the EU, the bond with the US has become stronger than ever before. We don't complain when the US sabotages the Nordstream or
    dictates the Netherlands what ASML may sell to whom.

    To say that a piece of garbage such as Trump is popular in the EU is beyond belief. The EU only looks to the > US because of its military strength, for the simple reason it changed the outcome of WWII

    WWII is a long time ago, like the influence of Hollywood. The US and its presidents are popular because of their military and economical leverage.

    ... not forgetting the resistance shown by Russia as well.

    That is forgotten since Berlin was taken.

    But times have changed drastically. Some US presidents were admired for sure because of their
    personality and perceived beliefs, and because of their strong belief in democracy, but this seems no
    longer the case. Biden is too old, and who is going to represent wisdom and restraint going forward is
    difficult to imagine.

    It's the office, not the person that is admired.

    Merkel became, for the EU, a leader of some stature,

    No one cares: she's out of office.

    and now the EU, like the US, awaits some kind of strong replacement in mature leadership.

    We expect it from the US. Macron is one of the first to point out that this might be a bad idea but his colleagues aren't interested. The East Europeans are even concerned.

    Meanwhile China looks on like a fox in front of a henhouse.

    I'm curious to see how China will deal with India.

    Henk

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  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Fri Apr 21 09:29:18 2023
    On 2023-04-20 18:07:11 +0000, Frank Berger said:

    On 4/20/2023 1:39 PM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-04-19 20:27:18 +0000, HT said:

    Op woensdag 19 april 2023 om 17:54:02 UTC+2 schreef Owen Hartnett:

    I'll disagree. My impression of Trump is that he doesn't want any
    wars. It's bad for business. That's not to say he might blunder into
    a war, but isn't Biden doing that now? Biden's comments about Ukraine
    have been more inflammatory than anything else ("Regime change", etc.) >>>> Democrats and neo-conservatives (i.e. Never Trumpers) seem to want to
    keep the proxy war machine running at full power.

    Recently, Trump gave a speech that didn't make him very popular in the
    EU. He announced that he would stop participating in the war against
    Russia. The EU had to pay the bill for that war. Instead, Trump would
    focus on issues with China.




    Trump has always been upfront that the US doesn't need to go into an
    "endless war" to get what it needs from other countries. He's focusing
    about economic issues, not physical might. Trump is first and foremost
    a friend of business, which is why the country did so well economically
    when he started. Wars are bad for normal business, only good for the
    defense industry. A war with Russia that ends in the collapse in the
    Russian government might be Joe Biden's top of the wish list, but that
    would make China even more wary of a more powerful USA.


    That would be a good thing, no? Unless by "more wary" you mean more
    likely to strike first. Wishful thinking, perhaps, but I find that implausible.


    Supposedly a good thing for us, but if China thinks a collapse of
    Russia was caused by the US, doesn't that back China into a
    it's-now-or-never corner regarding Taiwan?

    -Owen

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Fri Apr 21 11:41:03 2023
    On 4/21/2023 9:29 AM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-04-20 18:07:11 +0000, Frank Berger said:

    On 4/20/2023 1:39 PM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-04-19 20:27:18 +0000, HT said:

    Op woensdag 19 april 2023 om 17:54:02 UTC+2 schreef Owen Hartnett:

    I'll disagree. My impression of Trump is that he doesn't want any
    wars. It's bad for business. That's not to say he might blunder into >>>>> a war, but isn't Biden doing that now? Biden's comments about Ukraine >>>>> have been more inflammatory than anything else ("Regime change", etc.) >>>>> Democrats and neo-conservatives (i.e. Never Trumpers) seem to want to >>>>> keep the proxy war machine running at full power.

    Recently, Trump gave a speech that didn't make him very popular in the EU. He announced that he would stop participating in the war against Russia. The EU had to pay the bill for that war. Instead, Trump would focus on issues with China.




    Trump has always been upfront that the US doesn't need to go into an "endless war" to get what it needs from other countries.  He's focusing about economic issues, not physical might.  Trump is first and foremost a friend of business, which is why
    the country did so well economically when he started.  Wars are bad for normal business, only good for the defense industry.  A war with Russia that ends in the collapse in the Russian government might be Joe Biden's top of the wish list, but that
    would make China even more wary of a more powerful USA.


    That would be a good thing, no?  Unless by "more wary" you mean more likely to strike first.  Wishful thinking, perhaps, but I find that implausible.


    Supposedly a good thing for us, but if China thinks a collapse of Russia was caused by the US, doesn't that back China into a it's-now-or-never corner regarding Taiwan?

    -Owen


    NIMO. A collapse of Russia will be due do Russia's stupid behavior. China might take a lesson from that. Besides, besides bluster, who knows how much China really wants to take over Taiwan?

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  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Fri Apr 21 14:08:06 2023
    On 2023-04-21 15:41:03 +0000, Frank Berger said:

    On 4/21/2023 9:29 AM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-04-20 18:07:11 +0000, Frank Berger said:

    On 4/20/2023 1:39 PM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-04-19 20:27:18 +0000, HT said:

    Op woensdag 19 april 2023 om 17:54:02 UTC+2 schreef Owen Hartnett:

    I'll disagree. My impression of Trump is that he doesn't want any
    wars. It's bad for business. That's not to say he might blunder into >>>>>> a war, but isn't Biden doing that now? Biden's comments about Ukraine >>>>>> have been more inflammatory than anything else ("Regime change", etc.) >>>>>> Democrats and neo-conservatives (i.e. Never Trumpers) seem to want to >>>>>> keep the proxy war machine running at full power.

    Recently, Trump gave a speech that didn't make him very popular in the >>>>> EU. He announced that he would stop participating in the war against >>>>> Russia. The EU had to pay the bill for that war. Instead, Trump would >>>>> focus on issues with China.




    Trump has always been upfront that the US doesn't need to go into an
    "endless war" to get what it needs from other countries. He's focusing >>>> about economic issues, not physical might. Trump is first and foremost >>>> a friend of business, which is why the country did so well economically >>>> when he started. Wars are bad for normal business, only good for the
    defense industry. A war with Russia that ends in the collapse in the
    Russian government might be Joe Biden's top of the wish list, but that >>>> would make China even more wary of a more powerful USA.


    That would be a good thing, no? Unless by "more wary" you mean more
    likely to strike first. Wishful thinking, perhaps, but I find that
    implausible.


    Supposedly a good thing for us, but if China thinks a collapse of
    Russia was caused by the US, doesn't that back China into a
    it's-now-or-never corner regarding Taiwan?

    -Owen


    NIMO. A collapse of Russia will be due do Russia's stupid behavior.
    China might take a lesson from that. Besides, besides bluster, who
    knows how much China really wants to take over Taiwan?

    The Triumvirate of US-China-Russia tends to keep each other in balance.
    Two gang up against one in all different combinations, so the
    intertwining makes direct conflict difficult. Take one away and the
    balance is gone.

    China

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Fri Apr 21 15:41:59 2023
    On 4/21/2023 2:08 PM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-04-21 15:41:03 +0000, Frank Berger said:

    On 4/21/2023 9:29 AM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-04-20 18:07:11 +0000, Frank Berger said:

    On 4/20/2023 1:39 PM, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-04-19 20:27:18 +0000, HT said:

    Op woensdag 19 april 2023 om 17:54:02 UTC+2 schreef Owen Hartnett: >>>>>>>
    I'll disagree. My impression of Trump is that he doesn't want any >>>>>>> wars. It's bad for business. That's not to say he might blunder into >>>>>>> a war, but isn't Biden doing that now? Biden's comments about Ukraine >>>>>>> have been more inflammatory than anything else ("Regime change", etc.) >>>>>>> Democrats and neo-conservatives (i.e. Never Trumpers) seem to want to >>>>>>> keep the proxy war machine running at full power.

    Recently, Trump gave a speech that didn't make him very popular in the EU. He announced that he would stop participating in the war against Russia. The EU had to pay the bill for that war. Instead, Trump would focus on issues with China.




    Trump has always been upfront that the US doesn't need to go into an "endless war" to get what it needs from other countries.  He's focusing about economic issues, not physical might.  Trump is first and foremost a friend of business, which is
    why the country did so well economically when he started.  Wars are bad for normal business, only good for the defense industry.  A war with Russia that ends in the collapse in the Russian government might be Joe Biden's top of the wish list, but that
    would make China even more wary of a more powerful USA.


    That would be a good thing, no?  Unless by "more wary" you mean more likely to strike first.  Wishful thinking, perhaps, but I find that implausible.


    Supposedly a good thing for us, but if China thinks a collapse of Russia was caused by the US, doesn't that back China into a it's-now-or-never corner regarding Taiwan?

    -Owen


    NIMO. A collapse of Russia will be due do Russia's stupid behavior. China might take a lesson from that.  Besides, besides bluster, who knows how much China really wants to take over Taiwan?

    The Triumvirate of US-China-Russia tends to keep each other in balance. Two gang up against one in all different combinations, so the intertwining makes direct conflict difficult. Take one away and the balance is gone.

    China


    This makes little sense to me.

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 27 18:02:34 2023
    On Wednesday, March 16, 2022 at 12:29:43 AM UTC-7, wrote:
    https://www.reuters.com/world/india/pakistan-rejects-indian-statement-accidental-missile-launch-2022-03-15/

    https://news.yahoo.com/chinese-ship-blocks-philippine-vessel-095933794.html

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