I think the Tetsuro Hanai Hercules Dux Ferrariae is lovely. On the other hand I enjoyed Une Musique de Biscaye much less. Now wondering if the earlier recordings are more successful. I’m going to work through all the CDs over the next few weeks I think.


Just ordered Fallows’s book from Amazon too.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 3:59:34 AM UTC-4, Mandryka wrote:

I think the Tetsuro Hanai Hercules Dux Ferrariae is lovely. On the other hand I enjoyed Une Musique de Biscaye much less. Now wondering if the earlier recordings are more successful. I’m going to work through all the CDs over the next few weeks I

think.

Just ordered Fallows’s book from Amazon too.

Tell us what you learn!

For all my talk I still haven't listened through all the Tetsuro Hanai discs...

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 2:20:41 PM UTC+1, Ellie Kerry wrote:

On Monday, April 10, 2023 at 3:59:34 AM UTC-4, Mandryka wrote:

I think the Tetsuro Hanai Hercules Dux Ferrariae is lovely. On the other hand I enjoyed Une Musique de Biscaye much less. Now wondering if the earlier recordings are more successful. I’m going to work through all the CDs over the next few weeks I

think.

Just ordered Fallows’s book from Amazon too.

Tell us what you learn!

For all my talk I still haven't listened through all the Tetsuro Hanai discs...

My advice is to start at the beginning, Vol 1, Missa Mater Patris.

Very small scale, lovely music and an inspired performance.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

What is Missa N’aray je jamais? Tetsuro Hanai Vol 3. Fallows book is scheduled to arrive on Friday so I guess that may cast some light on the situation. Sounds like Josquin to me.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <05a7a7c7-25d5-4a14-b0e2-08401c20343dn@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:

What is Missa N'aray je jamais?

Missa Di dadi.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 5:35:00 PM UTC+1, Todd M. McComb wrote:

In article <05a7a7c7-25d5-4a14...@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:

What is Missa N'aray je jamais?

Missa Di dadi.

Yes I saw it on your website, that's why I deleted the post.

I'm enjoying going through the masses on the Tetsuro Hanai recordings.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <0f2c094c-129d-46b0-bded-4faa16fa1983n@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm enjoying going through the masses on the Tetsuro Hanai recordings.

It's definitely a worthwhile cycle. Now available for download,
which I assume is why you're hearing it now, versus the emailing
to Japan days....

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 6:25:16 PM UTC+1, Todd M. McComb wrote:

In article <0f2c094c-129d-46b0...@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm enjoying going through the masses on the Tetsuro Hanai recordings.

It's definitely a worthwhile cycle. Now available for download,
which I assume is why you're hearing it now, versus the emailing
to Japan days....

It's been available streaming for a while. In truth I think I OD'd on Josquin in 2020 and needed a good long break from renaissance polyphony. It's only now that I'm getting back into it.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Just coming back in here to say I've really come around on Todd's criticism of 'modal singing' of Josquin, re rhythm / rhythmic clarity. And we could just listen to non-Dagar dhrupad singers for some inspiration along those lines, even if we did
arbitrarily want to stick to Hindustani music. So now I'm hoping somebody picks up that torch some day.

Also, finally picked up the two Cantus Modalis CDs not streaming anywhere - Christiaan van der Ameijden (d. 1605) opera omnia, and the Heinrich Isaac Missa Paschalis (same as the one recorded with Cappella Pratensis). The former I haven't spent much time
with yet, but first impression is the compositions are not of highest interest, and in the recording the top line frustratingly dominates. The latter makes Isaac make a whole new kind of sense for me, it's like a warm bath of numinous-ness which wouldn't
be possible with the drama and virtuosity of Josquin's writing, but rather requires the 'boringness' of Isaac (maybe I already came to this conclusion and forgot about it...). The Sanctus is on youtube. unexpected highlight is the well-researched style
of organ improvisation, unlike other efforts I've heard in this arena.

Writing this reminds of something Todd said about how 500 years ago just as today, in every church service there's people in the back only half-paying attention, and these Franco-Flemings are writing with that audience in mind too. Or in other words a
reminder that 'music for close listening' historically is vanishingly rare, in contrast to for example 'music for ritual ambience'. Though the latter is certainly also insufficient to describe Franco-Flemish masses, especially someone like Josquin
audibly pushing - towards modernity, I guess. In any case I struggle to sit attentively through the entire Cantus Modalis Missa Paschalis, but it seems complicated to assess how and whether that should factor into my estimation of the recording's success
overall.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <04caef47-619a-412f-84ca-c2e870d92668n@googlegroups.com>,
Ellie Kerry <ellie.kerry@georgeblood.com> wrote:

Just coming back in here to say I've really come around on Todd's
criticism of 'modal singing' of Josquin, re rhythm / rhythmic clarity.

Well good. :-)

Also, finally picked up the two Cantus Modalis CDs not streaming
anywhere - Christiaan van der Ameijden (d. 1605) opera omnia, and the >Heinrich Isaac Missa Paschalis (same as the one recorded with Cappella >Pratensis).

Hmm, that Isaac disc appeared in 2013, and this is the first I'd
noticed it.... (Adding to the discography....)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <ea35f2f8-16ac-4a74-85cf-565c4963bdb2n@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:

Actually maybe that's the real point of polyphonic mass ordinary
settings.

Interesting remark. More or less opposite of what's usually said,
but maybe there's something to it!

Speaking for myself only, I'm just not interested in accented
rhythms, and contrasts, and drama and rhetorical forceful declamation
and that sort of thing myself. I don't allow it in the house.

Heh. I do regularly post here about various music that isn't that
way. However, I don't think I'm ready to abandon rhetorical
expression at all times. Sometimes I really don't want that sort
of thing though, it's true....

The new Obrecht from Cappella Pratensis is basically a study in
non-forceful metrical/accent shifts: Not sure where that falls in
your system....

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 8:52:23 PM UTC+1, Todd M. McComb wrote:

In article <ea35f2f8-16ac-4a74...@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:

Actually maybe that's the real point of polyphonic mass ordinary
settings.

Interesting remark. More or less opposite of what's usually said,
but maybe there's something to it!

Speaking for myself only, I'm just not interested in accented
rhythms, and contrasts, and drama and rhetorical forceful declamation
and that sort of thing myself. I don't allow it in the house.

Heh. I do regularly post here about various music that isn't that
way. However, I don't think I'm ready to abandon rhetorical
expression at all times. Sometimes I really don't want that sort
of thing though, it's true....

The new Obrecht from Cappella Pratensis is basically a study in
non-forceful metrical/accent shifts: Not sure where that falls in
your system....

I heard Cappella Pratensis do Missa Maria Zart in Antwerp in either 2018 or 2019. It fell flat. I haven’t listened to the recording yet, but I’ll do so maybe tomorrow and if I have any thoughts I’ll post them here. In the concert they broke the
mass setting up with motets - I don’t think they do that on the CD.

M. Maria Zart is enormous. I just wonder whether it’s inevitably sprawling.

(I’m listening go the Cantus Modalis Isaac CD now - very long with all the organ music, rather good though.)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 5:23:51 PM UTC+1, Todd M. McComb wrote:

In article <04caef47-619a-412f...@googlegroups.com>,
Ellie Kerry <ellie...@georgeblood.com> wrote:

Just coming back in here to say I've really come around on Todd's >criticism of 'modal singing' of Josquin, re rhythm / rhythmic clarity.

Well good. :-)

Also, finally picked up the two Cantus Modalis CDs not streaming
anywhere - Christiaan van der Ameijden (d. 1605) opera omnia, and the >Heinrich Isaac Missa Paschalis (same as the one recorded with Cappella >Pratensis).

Hmm, that Isaac disc appeared in 2013, and this is the first I'd
noticed it.... (Adding to the discography....)

If you like Martin Erhardt’s organ playing on the Isaac CD then try to find some of the organ improvisations from Ensemble Super Librum.

Martin Erhardt is a friendly guy, I’m sure he’d appreciate an email with your thoughts about modal singing, and I think you’d get an intelligent and sympathetic response from him.

I’ve heard Josquin and other renaissance flemmo franks sung by top singers in beautiful European churches. IMO the sound is so gobsmackingly amazing that even the groundlings will have done some close listening. They can start to play dice again when
the plainchant starts up - and there’s a lot of it.

Actually maybe that’s the real point of polyphonic mass ordinary settings.

I’ve been listening a lot to Josquin’s Missa Sine Nomine. Three recordings - Tetsuro Hanai, Metamorphoses and Tallis Scholars. None are 100% satisfactory. Speaking for myself only, I’m just not interested in accented rhythms, and contrasts, and
drama and rhetorical forceful declamation and that sort of thing myself. I don’t allow it in the house.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 9:00:20 PM UTC+1, Todd M. McComb wrote:

In article <u29b1h$gi7$1...@hope.eyrie.org>,
Todd M. McComb <mcc...@medieval.org> wrote:

In article <ea35f2f8-16ac-4a74...@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:

Speaking for myself only, I'm just not interested in accented
rhythms, and contrasts, and drama and rhetorical forceful declamation >>and that sort of thing myself. I don't allow it in the house.

Heh.

By which I meant to say, you must really LOVE classical music! :-)

OMG - you don’t want to hear what I think about Beethoven!

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 9:02:48 PM UTC+1, Todd M. McComb wrote:

In article <58a9d29f-ece4-48bf...@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:

I heard Cappella Pratensis do Missa Maria Zart in Antwerp in either
2018 or 2019. It fell flat.

Well they kept working on it. I posted a review of the CD today.

I’m not going to read it until I’ve heard the CD properly.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <58a9d29f-ece4-48bf-b914-785f7da1ef61n@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:

I heard Cappella Pratensis do Missa Maria Zart in Antwerp in either
2018 or 2019. It fell flat.

Well they kept working on it. I posted a review of the CD today.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <u29b1h$gi7$1@hope.eyrie.org>,
Todd M. McComb <mccomb@medieval.org> wrote:

In article <ea35f2f8-16ac-4a74-85cf-565c4963bdb2n@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:

Speaking for myself only, I'm just not interested in accented
rhythms, and contrasts, and drama and rhetorical forceful declamation
and that sort of thing myself. I don't allow it in the house.

Heh.

By which I meant to say, you must really LOVE classical music! :-)

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <a6fb4864-3761-4775-8913-4a8070b6b0aen@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm not going to read it until I've heard the CD properly.

I made that comment more for lurkers, if there are any....

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 3:53:50 AM UTC+1, Todd M. McComb wrote:

In article <b4e430a8-7334-46c2...@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie....@gmail.com> wrote:

OMG - you don't want to hear what I think about Beethoven!

Josquin & Beethoven do both belong to the same select group in the
area of musical rhetoric, so it's a good comparison.

Imagine a modal Missa Solemnis.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

In article <b4e430a8-7334-46c2-bbf7-5418ffd9d9cfn@googlegroups.com>,
Mandryka <howie.stone01@gmail.com> wrote:

OMG - you don't want to hear what I think about Beethoven!

Josquin & Beethoven do both belong to the same select group in the
area of musical rhetoric, so it's a good comparison.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

I read somewhere an 18th or 19th century account of some non-western dignitary going to the symphony in Paris or London for the first time. He said it and western music in general sounded like a baby throwing a tantrum. Returning to romantic piano music
after training my ears on qin, ney, setar, etc, I'm inclined to agree!

Predictably here I want to say something about the stylistic pressure exerted by western music moving to the middlebrow paid-ticket concert-hall since the 1660s, towards bombast, drama, virtuosity etc., in other words something about 'capitalist vs
feudal aesthetics'. But I'm emailing with Ottoman music specialist Walter Feldman and he thinks my thinking along these lines in the Ottoman context at least is sort of shallow and unsupportable! So I guess I have a lot more reading to do.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 1:40:47 PM UTC+1, Ellie Kerry wrote:

I read somewhere an 18th or 19th century account of some non-western dignitary going to the symphony in Paris or London for the first time. He said it and western music in general sounded like a baby throwing a tantrum. Returning to romantic piano

music after training my ears on qin, ney, setar, etc, I'm inclined to agree!

Here's some modal Chopin -- get ready to genuflect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XXnJiXPlrc&ab_channel=ADGO

Predictably here I want to say something about the stylistic pressure exerted by western music moving to the middlebrow paid-ticket concert-hall since the 1660s, towards bombast, drama, virtuosity etc., in other words something about 'capitalist vs

feudal aesthetics'.

I thought you thought that authentic Josquin targets the middlebrow church goers who weren't up for any close listening.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 8:13:14 AM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:

Here's some modal Chopin -- get ready to genuflect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XXnJiXPlrc&ab_channel=ADGO

A horrible performance. Bozh is
trying to chennel both Gould and
Pogo at the same time. This is a
demonstration how not to play
Chopin and how not to play the
piano.

dk

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 11:13:14 AM UTC-4, Mandryka wrote:

On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 1:40:47 PM UTC+1, Ellie Kerry wrote:

I read somewhere an 18th or 19th century account of some non-western dignitary going to the symphony in Paris or London for the first time. He said it and western music in general sounded like a baby throwing a tantrum. Returning to romantic piano

music after training my ears on qin, ney, setar, etc, I'm inclined to agree!

Here's some modal Chopin -- get ready to genuflect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XXnJiXPlrc&ab_channel=ADGO

Predictably here I want to say something about the stylistic pressure exerted by western music moving to the middlebrow paid-ticket concert-hall since the 1660s, towards bombast, drama, virtuosity etc., in other words something about 'capitalist vs

feudal aesthetics'.

I thought you thought that authentic Josquin targets the middlebrow church goers who weren't up for any close listening.

what a bizarre performance... I like it...

I guess I've introduced ambiguity by using 'middlebrow' there to mean literally 'part of the newly dominant middle classes'. Which seems not directly correlated to preference or antipathy towards close listening.

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)

Here's some modal Mozart

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R3KX6D-rCQ&list=OLAK5uy_lYHpKkdBfuccEjZc81zeitpGCWIoD3nA0&index=7&ab_channel=HagenQuartett-Topic

--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
* Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)