• Rattle speech on the crisis facing UK classical music

    From Mr. Mike@21:1/5 to All on Mon Apr 24 09:01:39 2023
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Mr. Mike on Mon Apr 24 10:24:33 2023
    On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 9:02:05 AM UTC-7, Mr. Mike wrote:

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/apr/24/simon-rattle-barbican-speech-we-are-facing-a-fight-for-existence-uk-classical-music-cuts

    What else is new?

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pluted Pup@21:1/5 to Mr. Mike on Mon Apr 24 14:30:03 2023
    On Mon, 24 Apr 2023 09:01:39 -0700, Mr. Mike wrote:

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/apr/24/simon-rattle-barbican-speech-we-are-facing-a-fight-for-existence-uk-classical-music-cuts

    Thanks for something to read, not a youtube link.

    Anyway, Rattle's speech or other speeches don't
    belong in concert halls, they would be better
    printed in the program for the concert.

    Classical crises -- you don't print programs --
    and have speeches instead -- a simple solution is
    to start printing and quit lecturing. Life is
    not a video.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Apr 24 17:42:58 2023
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 3:24:36 AM UTC+10, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 9:02:05 AM UTC-7, Mr. Mike wrote:

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/apr/24/simon-rattle-barbican-speech-we-are-facing-a-fight-for-existence-uk-classical-music-cuts

    What else is new?

    dk

    This is new, and it's significant, because the BBC has been of crucial importance to Britain's musical life since its inception. Its original purpose, famously pronounced by its Director-General, Lord Reith, was "to entertain, to inform and to educate"
    and the promotion of music of most kinds was part of that, whether it was Scottish country dance music or light music (think Leroy Anderson) or popular music or Schoenberg. Recently, however, it has followed commercial broadcasting down-market, which it
    justifies in terms of "appealing to a younger audience" which of course isn't there, because the younger audience rarely listens to broadcast radio. So the BBC directors recently announced, in peerless Managementese, that it was going to merge its
    Concert Orchestra with its Symphony Orchestra (their repertoires are completely different), make 20% cuts in its two English orchestras (the BBC Symphony and the BBC Philharmonic) and abolish entirely its virtuoso choir the BBC Singers. It is noteworthy
    that the orchestras in Wales and Scotland were not affected, no doubt for political reasons, and that the contracts for members of the BBC Singers were to terminate just *before* the opening of this year's Proms, a particularly nasty twist to the knife.

    The Brits owe it to people like Sir Simon and many, many others that the BBC has seen fit to, at least temporarily, reverse its decision.

    In my opinion, John Wilson's resurrection of the Sinfonia of London as, it would seem, an entirely private venture, is highly significant.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to All on Tue Apr 25 00:22:41 2023
    The cuts had to come. In fact Rattle, when he arrived at the LSO, asked for heavy spending to enhance his new tenure, so he's guilty of draining the budget as well. Not the one to talk.

    Sad to see the BBC Singers disbanded. They were good and did a lot of good work.

    John Wilson could have taken over the BBC Concert Orchestra, but didn't. Interesting.

    The ENO is due for the chop at some point, probably fairly soon.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Tue Apr 25 04:09:09 2023
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 11:48:16 UTC+1, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    Why did "the cuts have to come" and why didn't they come in Wales and Scotland as well? Why are they payng a former soccer player an obscene amount of money to chat about the day's soccer matches on Saturdays?
    Andrew Clarke, Canberra

    Much as we all love classical music, it can't compete with football. The BBC need audiences, and sport is where you get that.

    Classical music and opera is just so damned expensive in relation to its dwindling audiences and recording income. I don't see any significant growing interest from the younger generations. The world is going towards fast rather than deep.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Tue Apr 25 03:48:13 2023
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 5:22:44 PM UTC+10, Andy Evans wrote:
    The cuts had to come. In fact Rattle, when he arrived at the LSO, asked for heavy spending to enhance his new tenure, so he's guilty of draining the budget as well. Not the one to talk.

    Sad to see the BBC Singers disbanded. They were good and did a lot of good work.

    John Wilson could have taken over the BBC Concert Orchestra, but didn't. Interesting.

    The ENO is due for the chop at some point, probably fairly soon.

    Why did "thje cuts have to come" and why didn't they come in Wales and Scotland as well? Why are they payng a former soccer player an obscene amount of money to chat about the day's soccer matches on Saturdays?

    What Sir Simon negotiated with the LSO board has no bearing on the BBC orchestral budget for the simple reason that the LSO is not run by the BBC.

    Due to immense pressure from Sir Simon and the conceret-going public the BBC Singers will not be disbanded.

    John Wilson probably knew which way the wind was blowing at the BBC and in any case has bigger fish to fry these days.

    ENO had been threatened with the immediate removal of 100% of its Arts Council grant, but this has been postponed for twelve months. It was to have received a grant to enable it to move to the provinces and bring opera to pubs, carparks etc. inj some
    kind of operatic leveling-up process. Given that both the National Opera of Wales and Opera North in Leeds are both financially clinging on for dear life, this seems rather a tall order.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Tue Apr 25 08:12:07 2023
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 4:09:11 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 11:48:16 UTC+1, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    Why did "the cuts have to come" and why didn't they come in
    Wales and Scotland as well? Why are they payng a former
    soccer player an obscene amount of money to chat about
    the day's soccer matches on Saturdays?
    Andrew Clarke, Canberra

    Much as we all love classical music,
    it can't compete with football.

    Outlaw football. What
    a silly waste of energy!

    Rugby abd soccer too!

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Tue Apr 25 08:24:23 2023
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 9:09:11 PM UTC+10, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 11:48:16 UTC+1, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    Why did "the cuts have to come" and why didn't they come in Wales and Scotland as well? Why are they payng a former soccer player an obscene amount of money to chat about the day's soccer matches on Saturdays?
    Andrew Clarke, Canberra

    Much as we all love classical music, it can't compete with football. The BBC need audiences, and sport is where you get that.

    Classical music and opera is just so damned expensive in relation to its dwindling audiences and recording income. I don't see any significant growing interest from the younger generations. The world is going towards fast rather than deep.

    The whole point, Mike, is that the BBC, being funded by a tax on TV sets, *doesn't* need audiences to the extent that commercial broadcasters do. It's where you would expect minority tastes to be catered for, especially in areas traditionally seen as
    valuable in their own right. Not that this hasn't stopped the commercial networks from producing some first-rate material in the recent past - the TV recording of the ENO 'Mikado' being a case in point. It was produced by Thames Television. The original '
    Brideshead Revisited' was from Channel 4, and, in a lighter vein, the incredibly well produced 'Jeeves and Wooster' series with Stephen Fry and Hugh Laurie came from ITV. Meanwhile, the BBC won't even produce a documentary without its being 'fronted' by
    some superannuated comedian like Joanna Lumley or Tony Robinson, the idea being that the popular audience won't watch the show if, like 'Civilisation' it were to be presented by somebody who is actually an expert on the subject in question.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Tue Apr 25 08:28:40 2023
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 1:12:10 AM UTC+10, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 4:09:11 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 11:48:16 UTC+1, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    Why did "the cuts have to come" and why didn't they come in
    Wales and Scotland as well? Why are they payng a former
    soccer player an obscene amount of money to chat about
    the day's soccer matches on Saturdays?
    Andrew Clarke, Canberra

    Much as we all love classical music,
    it can't compete with football.
    Outlaw football. What
    a silly waste of energy!

    Rugby abd soccer too!

    dk

    In the UK, football *is* soccer. In Australia, it's either Australian Rules or Rugby League, depending on where you live. In America it consists of time-outs interrupted by brief periods where men with big shoulders collide with each other.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Tue Apr 25 08:58:38 2023
    On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 5:43:00 PM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 3:24:36 AM UTC+10, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Monday, April 24, 2023 at 9:02:05 AM UTC-7, Mr. Mike wrote:

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2023/apr/24/simon-rattle-barbican-speech-we-are-facing-a-fight-for-existence-uk-classical-music-cuts

    What else is new?

    dk
    This is new, and it's significant, because the BBC has been of crucial importance to Britain's musical life since its inception. Its original purpose, famously pronounced by its Director-General, Lord Reith, was "to entertain, to inform and to educate"
    and the promotion of music of most kinds was part of that, whether it was Scottish country dance music or light music (think Leroy Anderson) or popular music or Schoenberg. Recently, however, it has followed commercial broadcasting down-market, which it
    justifies in terms of "appealing to a younger audience" which of course isn't there, because the younger audience rarely listens to broadcast radio. So the BBC directors recently announced, in peerless Managementese, that it was going to merge its
    Concert Orchestra with its Symphony Orchestra (their repertoires are completely different), make 20% cuts in its two English orchestras (the BBC Symphony and the BBC Philharmonic) and abolish entirely its virtuoso choir the BBC Singers. It is noteworthy
    that the orchestras in Wales and Scotland were not affected, no doubt for political reasons, and that the contracts for members of the BBC Singers were to terminate just *before* the opening of this year's Proms, a particularly nasty twist to the knife.

    The Brits owe it to people like Sir Simon and many, many others that the BBC has seen fit to, at least temporarily, reverse its decision.

    In my opinion, John Wilson's resurrection of the Sinfonia of London as, it would seem, an entirely private venture, is highly significant.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    Concerning the comment "appealing to a younger audience":

    - The more you pander to what is, presumably, the taste of young people, the more you corrupt.

    Ruth Rendell

    - The good displeases us when we have not yet grown up to it.

    Nietzsche

    - The age in which we live, this non-stop distraction, is making it more impossible for the young generation to ever have the curiosity or
    discipline because you need to be alone to find out anything.

    Vivienne Westwood

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Tue Apr 25 09:02:56 2023
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 4:09:11 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 11:48:16 UTC+1, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    Why did "the cuts have to come" and why didn't they come in Wales and Scotland as well? Why are they payng a former soccer player an obscene amount of money to chat about the day's soccer matches on Saturdays?
    Andrew Clarke, Canberra

    Much as we all love classical music, it can't compete with football. The BBC need audiences, and sport is where you get that.

    Classical music and opera is just so damned expensive in relation to its dwindling audiences and recording income. I don't see any significant growing interest from the younger generations. The world is going towards fast rather than deep.

    In a competitive world, isn't everything turned into a race? :

    - We can neither put back the clock nor slow down our forward speed, and as we are already flying pilotless, on instrument controls, it is even too late to ask where we are going. (Stravinsky,d.1971)

    And in a competitive world, if once upon a time everyone had to jump on the bandwagon to be a success, don't they now have to jump on the bandwagon to survive?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Tue Apr 25 09:30:10 2023
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 9:02:59 AM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 4:09:11 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 11:48:16 UTC+1, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    Why did "the cuts have to come" and why didn't they come in Wales and Scotland as well? Why are they payng a former soccer player an obscene amount of money to chat about the day's soccer matches on Saturdays?
    Andrew Clarke, Canberra

    Much as we all love classical music, it can't compete with football. The BBC need audiences, and sport is where you get that.

    Classical music and opera is just so damned expensive in relation to its dwindling audiences and recording income. I don't see any significant growing interest from the younger generations. The world is going towards fast rather than deep.
    In a competitive world, isn't everything turned into a race? :

    - We can neither put back the clock nor slow down our forward speed, and as we are already flying pilotless, on instrument controls, it is even too late to ask where we are going. (Stravinsky,d.1971)

    And in a competitive world, if once upon a time everyone had to jump on the bandwagon to be a success, don't they now have to jump on the bandwagon to survive?

    Do we really need to be reminded that in a capitalist world, every decision becomes just another 'business' decision?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Tue Apr 25 20:36:32 2023
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 2:30:13 AM UTC+10, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 9:02:59 AM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 4:09:11 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 11:48:16 UTC+1, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    Why did "the cuts have to come" and why didn't they come in Wales and Scotland as well? Why are they payng a former soccer player an obscene amount of money to chat about the day's soccer matches on Saturdays?
    Andrew Clarke, Canberra

    Much as we all love classical music, it can't compete with football. The BBC need audiences, and sport is where you get that.

    Classical music and opera is just so damned expensive in relation to its dwindling audiences and recording income. I don't see any significant growing interest from the younger generations. The world is going towards fast rather than deep.
    In a competitive world, isn't everything turned into a race? :

    - We can neither put back the clock nor slow down our forward speed, and as we are already flying pilotless, on instrument controls, it is even too late to ask where we are going. (Stravinsky,d.1971)

    And in a competitive world, if once upon a time everyone had to jump on the bandwagon to be a success, don't they now have to jump on the bandwagon to survive?
    Do we really need to be reminded that in a capitalist world, every decision becomes just another 'business' decision?

    The BBC, like its Australian equivalent, considers itself rather radical in an Arts and Crafty sort of way. It's funded by a licence fee which has to be paid by anyone who owns a TV set, whether they watch the BBC or not or anybody who has installed the
    BBC iView app to stream the BBC online. Watching TV - even a commercial channel - without a licence is a criminal offence, and the magistrate's courts of Britain are choked with cases brought against single mothers, old age pensioners and other Enemies
    of the People who have been caught watching TV without a licence, which now costs hundreds of pounds. The only way to watch TV without shelling out for this 'TV tax' is to stream non-BBC channels onto a computer, which gives you plenty of scope. Here in
    Australia, there isn't a TV license: the ABC is funded out of general revenue, which in a way is worse, because people like myself who never watch the ABC or listen to its absurdly woke radio networks, cannot opt out by not paying for a licence. I haven'
    t watched ABC broadcast TV for years: we have You Tube Premium, Stan, DocPlay, Magellan, Digital Concert Hall, Arte (free but you need a VPN), YouTube Premium, ROH Stream and Glyndebourne Encore instead.

    Meanwhile in the UK the natives are getting restless. Why, many are asking, do we have to pay for a broadcasting service that we never watch? Why not make the BBC into a subscription service? And given the rapidly-declining ratings for ABC Radio and
    Television - ABC Radio National is now beyond parody - many Australians would like the ABC to be funded by subscription too.

    What interests me in all of this is the success of people like F-X Roth and John Wilson who have raised enough funding to not only create new orchestras - and in the former case a warehouse full of historic instruments - but to make recordings in an age
    where the orchestra pays the recording company and not the other way round.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Tue Apr 25 21:04:55 2023
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 8:36:34 PM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 2:30:13 AM UTC+10, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 9:02:59 AM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 4:09:11 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 11:48:16 UTC+1, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    Why did "the cuts have to come" and why didn't they come in Wales and Scotland as well? Why are they payng a former soccer player an obscene amount of money to chat about the day's soccer matches on Saturdays?
    Andrew Clarke, Canberra

    Much as we all love classical music, it can't compete with football. The BBC need audiences, and sport is where you get that.

    Classical music and opera is just so damned expensive in relation to its dwindling audiences and recording income. I don't see any significant growing interest from the younger generations. The world is going towards fast rather than deep.
    In a competitive world, isn't everything turned into a race? :

    - We can neither put back the clock nor slow down our forward speed, and as we are already flying pilotless, on instrument controls, it is even too late to ask where we are going. (Stravinsky,d.1971)

    And in a competitive world, if once upon a time everyone had to jump on the bandwagon to be a success, don't they now have to jump on the bandwagon to survive?
    Do we really need to be reminded that in a capitalist world, every decision becomes just another 'business' decision?
    The BBC, like its Australian equivalent, considers itself rather radical in an Arts and Crafty sort of way. It's funded by a licence fee which has to be paid by anyone who owns a TV set, whether they watch the BBC or not or anybody who has installed
    the BBC iView app to stream the BBC online. Watching TV - even a commercial channel - without a licence is a criminal offence, and the magistrate's courts of Britain are choked with cases brought against single mothers, old age pensioners and other
    Enemies of the People who have been caught watching TV without a licence, which now costs hundreds of pounds. The only way to watch TV without shelling out for this 'TV tax' is to stream non-BBC channels onto a computer, which gives you plenty of scope.
    Here in Australia, there isn't a TV license: the ABC is funded out of general revenue, which in a way is worse, because people like myself who never watch the ABC or listen to its absurdly woke radio networks, cannot opt out by not paying for a licence.
    I haven't watched ABC broadcast TV for years: we have You Tube Premium, Stan, DocPlay, Magellan, Digital Concert Hall, Arte (free but you need a VPN), YouTube Premium, ROH Stream and Glyndebourne Encore instead.

    Meanwhile in the UK the natives are getting restless. Why, many are asking, do we have to pay for a broadcasting service that we never watch? Why not make the BBC into a subscription service? And given the rapidly-declining ratings for ABC Radio and
    Television - ABC Radio National is now beyond parody - many Australians would like the ABC to be funded by subscription too.

    What interests me in all of this is the success of people like F-X Roth and John Wilson who have raised enough funding to not only create new orchestras - and in the former case a warehouse full of historic instruments - but to make recordings in an
    age where the orchestra pays the recording company and not the other way round.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    Similar situation in Japan:

    https://morethanrelo.com/en/the-nhk-man-and-nhk-fee-faq/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Tue Apr 25 21:06:06 2023
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 8:36:34 PM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 2:30:13 AM UTC+10, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 9:02:59 AM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 4:09:11 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 11:48:16 UTC+1, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    Why did "the cuts have to come" and why didn't they come in Wales and Scotland as well? Why are they payng a former soccer player an obscene amount of money to chat about the day's soccer matches on Saturdays?
    Andrew Clarke, Canberra

    Much as we all love classical music, it can't compete with football. The BBC need audiences, and sport is where you get that.

    Classical music and opera is just so damned expensive in relation to its dwindling audiences and recording income. I don't see any significant growing interest from the younger generations. The world is going towards fast rather than deep.
    In a competitive world, isn't everything turned into a race? :

    - We can neither put back the clock nor slow down our forward speed, and as we are already flying pilotless, on instrument controls, it is even too late to ask where we are going. (Stravinsky,d.1971)

    And in a competitive world, if once upon a time everyone had to jump on the bandwagon to be a success, don't they now have to jump on the bandwagon to survive?
    Do we really need to be reminded that in a capitalist world, every decision becomes just another 'business' decision?
    The BBC, like its Australian equivalent, considers itself rather radical in an Arts and Crafty sort of way. It's funded by a licence fee which has to be paid by anyone who owns a TV set, whether they watch the BBC or not or anybody who has installed
    the BBC iView app to stream the BBC online. Watching TV - even a commercial channel - without a licence is a criminal offence, and the magistrate's courts of Britain are choked with cases brought against single mothers, old age pensioners and other
    Enemies of the People who have been caught watching TV without a licence, which now costs hundreds of pounds. The only way to watch TV without shelling out for this 'TV tax' is to stream non-BBC channels onto a computer, which gives you plenty of scope.
    Here in Australia, there isn't a TV license: the ABC is funded out of general revenue, which in a way is worse, because people like myself who never watch the ABC or listen to its absurdly woke radio networks, cannot opt out by not paying for a licence.
    I haven't watched ABC broadcast TV for years: we have You Tube Premium, Stan, DocPlay, Magellan, Digital Concert Hall, Arte (free but you need a VPN), YouTube Premium, ROH Stream and Glyndebourne Encore instead.

    Meanwhile in the UK the natives are getting restless. Why, many are asking, do we have to pay for a broadcasting service that we never watch? Why not make the BBC into a subscription service? And given the rapidly-declining ratings for ABC Radio and
    Television - ABC Radio National is now beyond parody - many Australians would like the ABC to be funded by subscription too.

    What interests me in all of this is the success of people like F-X Roth and John Wilson who have raised enough funding to not only create new orchestras - and in the former case a warehouse full of historic instruments - but to make recordings in an
    age where the orchestra pays the recording company and not the other way round.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    Similar situation in Japan:

    https://morethanrelo.com/en/the-nhk-man-and-nhk-fee-faq/

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Wed Apr 26 04:23:29 2023
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 2:06:08 PM UTC+10, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 8:36:34 PM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 2:30:13 AM UTC+10, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 9:02:59 AM UTC-7, gggg gggg wrote:
    On Tuesday, April 25, 2023 at 4:09:11 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 25 April 2023 at 11:48:16 UTC+1, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    Why did "the cuts have to come" and why didn't they come in Wales and Scotland as well? Why are they payng a former soccer player an obscene amount of money to chat about the day's soccer matches on Saturdays?
    Andrew Clarke, Canberra

    Much as we all love classical music, it can't compete with football. The BBC need audiences, and sport is where you get that.

    Classical music and opera is just so damned expensive in relation to its dwindling audiences and recording income. I don't see any significant growing interest from the younger generations. The world is going towards fast rather than deep.
    In a competitive world, isn't everything turned into a race? :

    - We can neither put back the clock nor slow down our forward speed, and as we are already flying pilotless, on instrument controls, it is even too late to ask where we are going. (Stravinsky,d.1971)

    And in a competitive world, if once upon a time everyone had to jump on the bandwagon to be a success, don't they now have to jump on the bandwagon to survive?
    Do we really need to be reminded that in a capitalist world, every decision becomes just another 'business' decision?
    The BBC, like its Australian equivalent, considers itself rather radical in an Arts and Crafty sort of way. It's funded by a licence fee which has to be paid by anyone who owns a TV set, whether they watch the BBC or not or anybody who has installed
    the BBC iView app to stream the BBC online. Watching TV - even a commercial channel - without a licence is a criminal offence, and the magistrate's courts of Britain are choked with cases brought against single mothers, old age pensioners and other
    Enemies of the People who have been caught watching TV without a licence, which now costs hundreds of pounds. The only way to watch TV without shelling out for this 'TV tax' is to stream non-BBC channels onto a computer, which gives you plenty of scope.
    Here in Australia, there isn't a TV license: the ABC is funded out of general revenue, which in a way is worse, because people like myself who never watch the ABC or listen to its absurdly woke radio networks, cannot opt out by not paying for a licence.
    I haven't watched ABC broadcast TV for years: we have You Tube Premium, Stan, DocPlay, Magellan, Digital Concert Hall, Arte (free but you need a VPN), YouTube Premium, ROH Stream and Glyndebourne Encore instead.

    Meanwhile in the UK the natives are getting restless. Why, many are asking, do we have to pay for a broadcasting service that we never watch? Why not make the BBC into a subscription service? And given the rapidly-declining ratings for ABC Radio and
    Television - ABC Radio National is now beyond parody - many Australians would like the ABC to be funded by subscription too.

    What interests me in all of this is the success of people like F-X Roth and John Wilson who have raised enough funding to not only create new orchestras - and in the former case a warehouse full of historic instruments - but to make recordings in an
    age where the orchestra pays the recording company and not the other way round.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra
    Similar situation in Japan:

    https://morethanrelo.com/en/the-nhk-man-and-nhk-fee-faq/

    I'm broadly sympathetic to the idea of subscriber funding. If Arte ever decide to go down that road, I'd be happy to subscribe.

    It used to be argued that you needed public funding to finance expensive productions for minority tastes. But if broadcasters like the BBC are only i terested in the popular market, or yoof culture, that justification no longer applies.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Wed Apr 26 14:21:27 2023
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 4:23:32 AM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    I'm broadly sympathetic to the idea of subscriber funding.

    Why doesn't Sir Rattle put his money where his
    rattle is, and contribute to the funding of the
    orchestras? Didn't Thomas Beecham do this?

    It used to be argued that you needed public
    funding to finance expensive productions
    for minority tastes. But if broadcasters like
    the BBC are only interested in the popular
    market, or yoof culture, that justification no
    longer applies.

    A significant part of the problem are the
    outrageous fees paid to conductors. Sir
    Rattle's and other conductors' pay is
    probably as much as a third, if not
    more, of an orchestra's total pay. Does
    anyone believe a Boringboim is really
    worth that much?

    As to minority vs. majority tastes, the
    matter could be addressed through
    taste reversal programs. If people's
    genders can be changed, so can
    their tastes. This can be done as
    an easy out-patient surgery. Check
    in at 9 am and leave at 1 pm with
    a pair of new ears and a tiny BT
    receiver implanted in one's brain.
    Have it covered by Medicare, and
    offer discounts and promotions to
    everyone else.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Wed Apr 26 14:39:46 2023
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 2:21:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:

    As to minority vs. majority tastes, the
    matter could be addressed through
    taste reversal programs. If people's
    genders can be changed, so can
    their tastes. This can be done as
    an easy out-patient surgery. Check
    in at 9 am and leave at 1 pm with
    a pair of new ears and a tiny BT
    receiver implanted in one's brain.
    Have it covered by Medicare, and
    offer discounts and promotions to
    everyone else.


    Another potential source of funding
    for classical music orchestras could
    be windfall profit taxes on pop, rock,
    punk, metal, and other noise forms.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Wed Apr 26 14:37:21 2023
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 2:21:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 4:23:32 AM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    I'm broadly sympathetic to the idea of subscriber funding.

    Why doesn't Sir Rattle put his money where his
    rattle is, and contribute to the funding of the
    orchestras? Didn't Thomas Beecham do this?

    It used to be argued that you needed public
    funding to finance expensive productions
    for minority tastes. But if broadcasters like
    the BBC are only interested in the popular
    market, or yoof culture, that justification no
    longer applies.

    A significant part of the problem are the
    outrageous fees paid to conductors. Sir
    Rattle's and other conductors' pay is
    probably as much as a third, if not
    more, of an orchestra's total pay. Does
    anyone believe a Boringboim is really
    worth that much?

    https://slippedisc.com/2018/03/what-musicians-earn-in-german-orchestras/

    https://work.chron.com/much-money-orchestra-musicians-make-15161.html

    https://theviolinchannel.com/riccardo-muti-is-highest-paid-music-director-us-mcmanus-adaptristration/

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/27/arts/music/orchestra-conductors-high-salaries.html

    https://www.cmuse.org/who-gets-paid-the-most-in-an-orchestra/

    https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/careers-in-classical-music

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Pluted Pup@21:1/5 to gggg gggg on Wed Apr 26 14:59:35 2023
    On Tue, 25 Apr 2023 08:58:38 -0700, gggg gggg wrote:

    Concerning the comment "appealing to a younger audience":

    - The more you pander to what is, presumably, the taste of young people, the more you corrupt.

    Ruth Rendell

    - The good displeases us when we have not yet grown up to it.

    Nietzsche

    - The age in which we live, this non-stop distraction, is making it more impossible for the young generation to ever have the curiosity or
    discipline because you need to be alone to find out anything.

    Vivienne Westwood

    It's usually grumpy old Jewish men who say "we must quit
    what we are successful at to appeal to young people".

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Pluted Pup on Wed Apr 26 15:11:38 2023
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 2:59:44 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:

    It's usually grumpy old Jewish men
    who say "we must quit what we are
    successful at to appeal to young people".

    Pluted imbecile, can you provide even
    a single verifiable source to support
    your argument?

    Your Imbecility does not appear to
    understand the simple fact that no
    matter what one does or does not
    do, young(er) people always replace
    old(er) people over time.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Wed Apr 26 19:47:15 2023
    On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 7:21:31 AM UTC+10, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 4:23:32 AM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    I'm broadly sympathetic to the idea of subscriber funding.
    Why doesn't Sir Rattle put his money where his
    rattle is, and contribute to the funding of the
    orchestras? Didn't Thomas Beecham do this?
    It used to be argued that you needed public
    funding to finance expensive productions
    for minority tastes. But if broadcasters like
    the BBC are only interested in the popular
    market, or yoof culture, that justification no
    longer applies.
    A significant part of the problem are the
    outrageous fees paid to conductors. Sir
    Rattle's and other conductors' pay is
    probably as much as a third, if not
    more, of an orchestra's total pay. Does
    anyone believe a Boringboim is really
    worth that much?

    As to minority vs. majority tastes, the
    matter could be addressed through
    taste reversal programs. If people's
    genders can be changed, so can
    their tastes. This can be done as
    an easy out-patient surgery. Check
    in at 9 am and leave at 1 pm with
    a pair of new ears and a tiny BT
    receiver implanted in one's brain.
    Have it covered by Medicare, and
    offer discounts and promotions to
    everyone else.

    dk

    Sir Thomas inherited a fortune from his father, who was the founder of a hugely successful and widely advertised brand of patent medicine, Beecham's Pills. He spent it on the London Philharmonic and the Royal Philharmonic Orchestras, one of which he
    founded, and in unsuccessful attempts to create a British opera season, which the similarly rich Christie family were eventually to achieve at Glyndebourne. He had a cavalier attitude to money, which eventually led to his bankrupcy.

    Why Sir Simon should contribute to the upkeep of orchestras which are indirectly publicly funded, and for which he has no responsibility, is beyond me. As for the astronomical fees paid to conductors, particularly in the USA, this is all part of the
    Heldendirigent tradition, as previously discussed. If there's no big-name conductor, there's no audience, it's assumed. So big-name conductors can name their price.

    I wonder how much Mr (William) Christie, M. Pichon, M. Roth and Mr Wilson, who created their own ensembles, pay or paid themselves when they're conducting them?

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Wed Apr 26 23:31:26 2023
    On 2023-04-26 21:21:27 +0000, Dan Koren said:

    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 4:23:32 AM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    I'm broadly sympathetic to the idea of subscriber funding.
    Why doesn't Sir Rattle put his money where hisrattle is, and
    contribute to the funding of theorchestras? Didn't Thomas Beecham do
    this?
    It used to be argued that you needed public funding to finance
    expensive productions for minority tastes. But if broadcasters like
    the BBC are only interested in the popular market, or yoof culture,
    that justification no longer applies.
    A significant part of the problem are the outrageous fees paid to conductors. Sir Rattle's and other conductors' pay is probably as
    much as a third, if not more, of an orchestra's total pay. Does
    anyone believe a Boringboim is really worth that much? As to
    minority vs. majority tastes, the matter could be addressed through
    taste reversal programs. If people's genders can be changed, so can
    their tastes. This can be done as an easy out-patient surgery. Check
    in at 9 am and leave at 1 pm with a pair of new ears and a tiny BT receiver implanted in one's brain. Have it covered by Medicare, and
    offer discounts and promotions to everyone else.
    dk

    My post-taste reversal pronouns are hear/hear.

    -Owen

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Wed Apr 26 20:30:16 2023
    On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 7:37:24 AM UTC+10, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 2:21:31 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 4:23:32 AM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    I'm broadly sympathetic to the idea of subscriber funding.

    Why doesn't Sir Rattle put his money where his
    rattle is, and contribute to the funding of the
    orchestras? Didn't Thomas Beecham do this?

    It used to be argued that you needed public
    funding to finance expensive productions
    for minority tastes. But if broadcasters like
    the BBC are only interested in the popular
    market, or yoof culture, that justification no
    longer applies.

    A significant part of the problem are the
    outrageous fees paid to conductors. Sir
    Rattle's and other conductors' pay is
    probably as much as a third, if not
    more, of an orchestra's total pay. Does
    anyone believe a Boringboim is really
    worth that much?
    https://slippedisc.com/2018/03/what-musicians-earn-in-german-orchestras/

    https://work.chron.com/much-money-orchestra-musicians-make-15161.html

    https://theviolinchannel.com/riccardo-muti-is-highest-paid-music-director-us-mcmanus-adaptristration/

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/27/arts/music/orchestra-conductors-high-salaries.html

    https://www.cmuse.org/who-gets-paid-the-most-in-an-orchestra/

    https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/finding-a-job/careers-in-classical-music

    During his first term at the Berlin Philharmonic, Sir Simon successfully worked hard to improve his musicians' pay and conditions.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Wed Apr 26 21:53:14 2023
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 8:31:40 PM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-04-26 21:21:27 +0000, Dan Koren said:

    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 4:23:32 AM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    I'm broadly sympathetic to the idea of subscriber funding.
    Why doesn't Sir Rattle put his money where hisrattle is, and
    contribute to the funding of theorchestras? Didn't Thomas Beecham do
    this?

    It used to be argued that you needed public funding to finance
    expensive productions for minority tastes. But if broadcasters like
    the BBC are only interested in the popular market, or yoof culture,
    that justification no longer applies.

    A significant part of the problem are the outrageous fees paid to conductors. Sir Rattle's and other conductors' pay is probably as
    much as a third, if not more, of an orchestra's total pay. Does
    anyone believe a Boringboim is really worth that much? As to
    minority vs. majority tastes, the matter could be addressed through
    taste reversal programs. If people's genders can be changed, so can
    their tastes. This can be done as an easy out-patient surgery. Check
    in at 9 am and leave at 1 pm with a pair of new ears and a tiny BT receiver implanted in one's brain. Have it covered by Medicare, and
    offer discounts and promotions to everyone else.

    My post-taste reversal pronouns are hear/hear.

    Good to know, though it isn't clear you got the joke.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Thu Apr 27 01:33:09 2023
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 8:30:19 PM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    During his first term at the Berlin Philharmonic,
    Sir Simon successfully worked hard to improve
    his musicians' pay and conditions.

    Good to hear. Unfortunately, he did
    not manage to improve their sound.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Thu Apr 27 08:06:21 2023
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 7:47:18 PM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    On Thursday, April 27, 2023 at 7:21:31 AM UTC+10, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 26, 2023 at 4:23:32 AM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    I'm broadly sympathetic to the idea of subscriber funding.
    Why doesn't Sir Rattle put his money where his
    rattle is, and contribute to the funding of the
    orchestras? Didn't Thomas Beecham do this?
    It used to be argued that you needed public
    funding to finance expensive productions
    for minority tastes. But if broadcasters like
    the BBC are only interested in the popular
    market, or yoof culture, that justification no
    longer applies.
    A significant part of the problem are the
    outrageous fees paid to conductors. Sir
    Rattle's and other conductors' pay is
    probably as much as a third, if not
    more, of an orchestra's total pay. Does
    anyone believe a Boringboim is really
    worth that much?

    As to minority vs. majority tastes, the
    matter could be addressed through
    taste reversal programs. If people's
    genders can be changed, so can
    their tastes. This can be done as
    an easy out-patient surgery. Check
    in at 9 am and leave at 1 pm with
    a pair of new ears and a tiny BT
    receiver implanted in one's brain.
    Have it covered by Medicare, and
    offer discounts and promotions to
    everyone else.

    dk
    Sir Thomas inherited a fortune from his father, who was the founder of a hugely successful and widely advertised brand of patent medicine, Beecham's Pills. He spent it on the London Philharmonic and the Royal Philharmonic Orchestras, one of which he
    founded, and in unsuccessful attempts to create a British opera season, which the similarly rich Christie family were eventually to achieve at Glyndebourne. He had a cavalier attitude to money, which eventually led to his bankrupcy.

    Why Sir Simon should contribute to the upkeep of orchestras which are indirectly publicly funded, and for which he has no responsibility, is beyond me. As for the astronomical fees paid to conductors, particularly in the USA, this is all part of the
    Heldendirigent tradition, as previously discussed. If there's no big-name conductor, there's no audience, it's assumed. So big-name conductors can name their price...

    Could that be reflecting what is happening in society where the few at the top take such a huge slice of the pie that only the crumbs are left for others?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)