• Bychkov's Mahler 2

    From Alex Brown@21:1/5 to All on Wed Apr 12 16:19:31 2023
    Yet another clean, ho-hum recording of this.

    The only surprising thing is at around 8:40 into the second movement
    when the mix goes completey awry for several seconds as the woodwind
    section gets faded up to MAX.

    Mahler 2. It used to be special.

    --
    - Alex Brown

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  • From Oscar@21:1/5 to Alex Brown on Wed Apr 12 20:39:58 2023
    On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 8:19:46 AM UTC-7, Alex Brown wrote:
    Yet another clean, ho-hum recording of this.

    The only surprising thing is at around 8:40 into the second movement
    when the mix goes completey awry for several seconds as the woodwind
    section gets faded up to MAX.

    Mahler 2. It used to be special.

    Bychkov's Mahler was so good in person. I saw the Sixth w/ VPO in 2011. Powerful experience.

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  • From Alex Brown@21:1/5 to Oscar on Thu Apr 13 05:55:58 2023
    On 13/04/2023 04:39, Oscar wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 8:19:46 AM UTC-7, Alex Brown wrote:
    Yet another clean, ho-hum recording of this.

    The only surprising thing is at around 8:40 into the second movement
    when the mix goes completey awry for several seconds as the woodwind
    section gets faded up to MAX.

    Mahler 2. It used to be special.

    Bychkov's Mahler was so good in person. I saw the Sixth w/ VPO in 2011. Powerful experience.

    He's been good on record too. His SWR Mahler 3 is one of my favourites ...

    --
    - Alex Brown

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  • From raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Alex Brown on Thu Apr 13 08:12:02 2023
    On Thursday, 13 April 2023 at 01:19:46 UTC+10, Alex Brown wrote:
    Yet another clean, ho-hum recording of this.

    The only surprising thing is at around 8:40 into the second movement
    when the mix goes completey awry for several seconds as the woodwind
    section gets faded up to MAX.

    Mahler 2. It used to be special.

    --
    - Alex Brown

    We have heard so many Mahler recordings since the day Mahler was the new thing, that we've become Mahlerised. For me his 1st, 6th, 7th and Das Lied are still a bit special, but the 2nd has not worn well. Bruckner has fared better to my ears.

    Ray Hall, Taree

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  • From Paul Goodman@21:1/5 to raymond....@gmail.com on Thu Apr 13 18:17:34 2023
    raymond....@gmail.com <raymond.hallbear1@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Thursday, 13 April 2023 at 01:19:46 UTC+10, Alex Brown wrote:
    Yet another clean, ho-hum recording of this.

    The only surprising thing is at around 8:40 into the second movement
    when the mix goes completey awry for several seconds as the woodwind
    section gets faded up to MAX.

    Mahler 2. It used to be special.

    --
    - Alex Brown

    We have heard so many Mahler recordings since the day Mahler was the new thing, that we've become Mahlerised. For me his 1st, 6th, 7th and Das
    Lied are still a bit special, but the 2nd has not worn well. Bruckner has fared better to my ears.

    Ray Hall, Taree




    Hi Ray, for me it has been the opposite. I have tried to get Bruckner,
    hearing some live performances with Chicago and numerous recordings, but to
    no avail. For me, Mahler is different. I like everything he wrote and can
    find enjoyment even in just average recordings. To each his own I guess :)


    Paul Goodman

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  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Alex Brown on Thu Apr 13 16:11:02 2023
    On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 2:56:13 PM UTC+10, Alex Brown wrote:
    On 13/04/2023 04:39, Oscar wrote:
    On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at 8:19:46 AM UTC-7, Alex Brown wrote:
    Yet another clean, ho-hum recording of this.

    The only surprising thing is at around 8:40 into the second movement
    when the mix goes completey awry for several seconds as the woodwind
    section gets faded up to MAX.

    Mahler 2. It used to be special.

    Bychkov's Mahler was so good in person. I saw the Sixth w/ VPO in 2011. Powerful experience.
    He's been good on record too. His SWR Mahler 3 is one of my favourites ...

    --
    - Alex Brown

    So the answer lies not in the stars like Mr Bychkov, but in ourselves? Do we, perhaps, feel nostalgia for the days when a new recording of a big Mahler symphony was a rare and much-anticipated event?

    Meanwhile, Bychkov has conducted Cosi Fan Tutte at Covent Garden, and the performance, plus a documentary about this production, are available from ROH Stream.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

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  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Thu Apr 13 21:22:24 2023
    On 2023-04-13 23:11:02 +0000, Andrew Clarke said:

    On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 2:56:13 PM UTC+10, Alex Brown wrote:
    On 13/04/2023 04:39, Oscar wrote:> > On Wednesday, April 12, 2023 at
    8:19:46 AM UTC-7, Alex Brown wrote:> >> Yet another clean, ho-hum
    recording of this.> >>> >> The only surprising thing is at around 8:40
    into the second movement> >> when the mix goes completey awry for
    several seconds as the woodwind> >> section gets faded up to MAX.> >>>
    Mahler 2. It used to be special.> >> > Bychkov's Mahler was so good
    in person. I saw the Sixth w/ VPO in 2011. Powerful experience.
    He's been good on record too. His SWR Mahler 3 is one of my favourites
    - Alex Brown

    So the answer lies not in the stars like Mr Bychkov, but in ourselves?
    Do we, perhaps, feel nostalgia for the days when a new recording of a
    big Mahler symphony was a rare and much-anticipated event?

    Meanwhile, Bychkov has conducted Cosi Fan Tutte at Covent Garden, and
    the performance, plus a documentary about this production, are
    available from ROH Stream.


    It was not only rare and much anticipated, but it was a race!

    All of Bernstein, Solti, and Tennstedt (and others) trying to get on
    vinyl their latest recordings. Don't quite know who won, but probably
    we all did (though hasn't Solti rather dissipated in admirers lately?)

    -Owen

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  • From simonelvladtepes@21:1/5 to All on Sat Apr 15 21:34:36 2023
    Bychkov's Mahler was so good in person. I saw the Sixth w/ VPO in 2011. Powerful experience.

    He did it with the NYPO around that time, IIRC. Very disappointing. I have a recording of one of the concerts in the run to refresh my memory. An overrated conductor. His current 2nd is also disappointing, as pointed out by French critics who are always
    right about everything: https://www.forumopera.com/cd-dvd-livre/mahler-symphonie-n2/

    Simonel

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Sun Apr 16 15:41:15 2023
    On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 3:35:27 PM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    M'enfin! This particular critic appears to be ... Belgian.
    And all Frenchmen agree that Belgians are stupid.

    Even Belgians agree that Belgians are stupid.

    dk

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  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to simonelvladtepes on Sun Apr 16 15:35:24 2023
    On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 2:34:39 PM UTC+10, simonelvladtepes wrote:
    Bychkov's Mahler was so good in person. I saw the Sixth w/ VPO in 2011. Powerful experience.
    He did it with the NYPO around that time, IIRC. Very disappointing. I have a recording of one of the concerts in the run to refresh my memory. An overrated conductor. His current 2nd is also disappointing, as pointed out by French critics who are
    always right about everything: https://www.forumopera.com/cd-dvd-livre/mahler-symphonie-n2/

    Simonel

    M'enfin! This particular critic appears to be ... Belgian. And all Frenchmen agree that Belgians are stupid.

    Meanwhile, The Davold's acolytes are already eagerly awaiting his reaction to this particular recording. As I rely on this critic's recommendations to compile my must-have list - a new recording of The Planets from Bavaria being the latest example - I
    suppose I will eventually have to buy Mr Bychkov's Mahler myself.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

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  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Tue Apr 18 05:53:41 2023
    On Tuesday, April 18, 2023 at 10:40:30 PM UTC+10, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 8:41:19 AM UTC+10, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 3:35:27 PM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    M'enfin! This particular critic appears to be ... Belgian.
    And all Frenchmen agree that Belgians are stupid.
    Even Belgians agree that Belgians are stupid.

    dk
    The exception being Bobby Jaspar from Liege, a brilliant saxophonist and flautist who was mixing it with the big boys in the USA just before his early death. He was also bright enough to be married to Blossom Dearie for a few years ...

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

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  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Tue Apr 18 05:40:27 2023
    On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 8:41:19 AM UTC+10, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, April 16, 2023 at 3:35:27 PM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    M'enfin! This particular critic appears to be ... Belgian.
    And all Frenchmen agree that Belgians are stupid.
    Even Belgians agree that Belgians are stupid.

    dk

    The exception being Bobby Jaspar,

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  • From William Hyde@21:1/5 to Paul Goodman on Thu Apr 20 13:31:25 2023
    On Thursday, April 13, 2023 at 2:17:48 PM UTC-4, Paul Goodman wrote:
    raymond....@gmail.com <raymond....@gmail.com> wrote:
    On Thursday, 13 April 2023 at 01:19:46 UTC+10, Alex Brown wrote:
    Yet another clean, ho-hum recording of this.

    The only surprising thing is at around 8:40 into the second movement
    when the mix goes completey awry for several seconds as the woodwind
    section gets faded up to MAX.

    Mahler 2. It used to be special.

    --
    - Alex Brown

    We have heard so many Mahler recordings since the day Mahler was the new thing, that we've become Mahlerised. For me his 1st, 6th, 7th and Das
    Lied are still a bit special, but the 2nd has not worn well. Bruckner has fared better to my ears.

    Ray Hall, Taree



    Hi Ray, for me it has been the opposite. I have tried to get Bruckner, hearing some live performances with Chicago and numerous recordings, but to no avail. For me, Mahler is different. I like everything he wrote and can find enjoyment even in just average recordings. To each his own I guess :)

    It took a while, but Bruckner's fourth and eighth have for decades been works
    I enjoy. I do listen to other Bruckner, but so far, while I don't actively dislike
    those works, none have yet become favourites.

    For the record, I like everything by Mahler except the eighth. I'm working on that.

    William Hyde

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  • From Mr. Mike@21:1/5 to All on Thu Apr 20 15:03:00 2023
    https://www.forumopera.com/cd-dvd-livre/mahler-symphonie-n2/

    Bychkov strongly disappoints

    We will certainly not claim that any symphony by Mahler is easy to
    play, and even less to record. This being said, the Second is
    undoubtedly the one that poses the fewest challenges to the conductor:
    its rectilinear trajectory from shadow to light, its gradual rise in
    power, its logical use of musical means, which add up instead of to
    disperse as in the Third, the luminosity of its finale, the story that underlies the musical text, all combine to make the work readable, and
    to ensure its effect, in concert as on disc. Just let yourself be
    carried away by the fiery breath of Mahlerian lyricism, link the
    different episodes of the epic, trust the text, and you're done. We
    understand even less the obvious failure of Semyon Bychkov. While his
    first two parts of what promises to be a new complete (the Fourth and
    the Fifth) laid more than respectable milestones, we are surprised to
    see a confirmed conductor collapse in this way in a studio recording.
    In terms of interpretation, Bychkov's only project seems to be to
    break up the musical text into a multitude of unrelated
    micro-episodes, transforming these 86 minutes into a succession of
    explosions followed by the most impalpable pianissimi, without that
    one perceives the slightest necessity in the passage from one to the
    other.

    This excessive solicitation of the text is particularly irritating in
    the first movement, which never manages to find its unity and which
    makes you seasick by dint of hesitating between affects that sound
    arbitrary. It seems that the chef takes a malicious pleasure in giving
    reason to the critics of the creation, who heard in all this nothing
    but hullabaloo. Debussy, who spoke of a "pneumatic giant", can breathe
    easily. The second movement is better off, although it still falls
    short of its poetic potential, and the pizzicati sequence is much too
    slow and amorphous. The scherzo does not advance, and we are surprised
    to look at his watch, whereas it is normally a breathless episode,
    where we are as if hanging on the conductor's baton. But how stuffy,
    heavy, noisy and shallow it all sounds. The Urlicht passes without
    problem, thanks to the brass of a Czech Philharmonic Orchestra who
    remain great musicians (the trumpets!) and to the beautiful mezzo of
    Elisabeth Kulman, who knows how to phrase her lied with pleasure.

    Alas, the finale returns to all the flaws mentioned, and never leaves
    a sequential and anecdotal tone, making the vast apocalyptic fresco
    look like a banal peplum. One might have hoped that the choral
    intervention would save the day, but the Prague Philharmonic Choir is
    poorly captured at first (a sound that is too diffuse), its German
    diction is indecisive, and it trips over the carpet several times. ,
    especially when the tempo increases, and the phrases have to bounce
    from one desk to another. Rather than fluttering, they drag and the
    overall effect is completely missed.

    Is this recording devoid of qualities? Certainly not. As we have said,
    the Czech Philharmonic remains a first-rate phalanx, and the way in
    which the strings detail their different levels of writing can amaze
    at times, as well as certain individualities in the woodwinds (the
    flutes). Two problems however: these beautiful sounds are hardly distinguishable from those found on the international circuit, and
    above all they are not really used by the conductor to build something
    coherent at the interpretative level. We will however set aside the
    performance of the soprano, Christiane Karg, whose voice escaped from
    paradise and the delicate crack hover light years above all this
    pensum. Bernstein, Mehta and Haitink can rest easy, their discographic supremacy is hardly threatened.

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  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Mr. Mike on Thu Apr 20 18:46:01 2023
    On Friday, April 21, 2023 at 8:03:17 AM UTC+10, Mr. Mike wrote:
    https://www.forumopera.com/cd-dvd-livre/mahler-symphonie-n2/

    Bychkov strongly disappoints


    Thankyou for your translation, Mike.
    BTW apart from the OP, has anybody else actually heard the recording?
    I mention this, because in the case of Daniel Harding's new recording of The Planets, what's said to be going on and what I actually hear are two very different things.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

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  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Mr. Mike on Sat Apr 22 09:11:38 2023
    On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 1:33:36 AM UTC+10, Mr. Mike wrote:
    On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 18:46:01 -0700 (PDT), Andrew Clarke <andrewc...@gmail.com> wrote:

    I mention this, because in the case of Daniel Harding's new recording of The Planets, what's said to be going on and what I actually hear are two very different things.
    Harding did Ives' Three Places in New England with Berlin Philharmonic
    some time ago. The audience was hard-pressed to bring him back with
    applause even once!

    One swallow some time ago does not make a summer. Especially if the swallow is Ives and the perch is the Philharmoniker.

    Have you listened to his The Planets or does his alleged failure in Berlin some time ago excuse you from so doing?

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

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  • From Mr. Mike@21:1/5 to andrewclarke437@gmail.com on Sat Apr 22 08:33:15 2023
    On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 18:46:01 -0700 (PDT), Andrew Clarke <andrewclarke437@gmail.com> wrote:

    I mention this, because in the case of Daniel Harding's new recording of The Planets, what's said to be going on and what I actually hear are two very different things.

    Harding did Ives' Three Places in New England with Berlin Philharmonic
    some time ago. The audience was hard-pressed to bring him back with
    applause even once!

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  • From Alex Brown@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Sat Apr 22 18:33:56 2023
    On 22/04/2023 17:11, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    On Sunday, April 23, 2023 at 1:33:36 AM UTC+10, Mr. Mike wrote:
    On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 18:46:01 -0700 (PDT), Andrew Clarke
    <andrewc...@gmail.com> wrote:

    I mention this, because in the case of Daniel Harding's new recording of The Planets, what's said to be going on and what I actually hear are two very different things.
    Harding did Ives' Three Places in New England with Berlin Philharmonic
    some time ago. The audience was hard-pressed to bring him back with
    applause even once!

    One swallow some time ago does not make a summer. Especially if the swallow is Ives and the perch is the Philharmoniker.

    Have you listened to his The Planets or does his alleged failure in Berlin some time ago excuse you from so doing?

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    My interest was piqued by this exchange so I did start to listen, but
    only got through Mars. Mr Hurwitz was right in that it is a very
    soft-grained affair without menace or tang, and is very much not helped
    by a low-impact, distant recording (unusually from this label for the
    BRSO).

    - Alex.

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  • From mswdesign@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Alex Brown on Sat Apr 22 12:03:48 2023
    On Saturday, April 22, 2023 at 12:34:12 PM UTC-5, Alex Brown wrote:
    My interest was piqued by this exchange so I did start to listen, but
    only got through Mars. Mr Hurwitz was right in that it is a very soft-grained affair without menace or tang, and is very much not helped
    by a low-impact, distant recording (unusually from this label for the
    BRSO).
    - Alex.

    To my mind the BRSO has had some of the most beautiful recordings over recent years, so I was interested to hear this. When I say that, I'm talking about the recordings themselves, which I've always suspected of being digitally "juiced" to create a
    warmer, more spacious acoustic. Not that I care where it comes from- they sound great. So when Jansons was his somewhat soggy self, the results were sometimes still entirely delightful (Shchedrin Carmen) while other recordings were fatally flabby (
    Beethoven and Brahms symphonies).

    The listen: it's not as bad as I expected. In fact, there's some good and some bad. But the value of Boult's martial air is clear. This is simply not an orchestra that is willing to take a rhythmic phrase and drive it in time, and Harding is not the one
    to bring such discipline. Nope, what we get are plump, pleasant sounds. Mercury and Jupiter seemed pretty well-executed if a bit tame. Listening to Saturn now and four minutes in, the funeral-march manner has not abated. I like what I'm hearing- it's a
    rather surprising take. Lordy, here we are at 6:00 and they are playing this like the scale is just epic. It is an interesting interpretive idea. Not a first choice, or anywhere near, but I'm not bored by it. Very dreamy. Uh-oh- the manner continues into
    Uranus. Big mistake. This is the worst movement so far. Climaxes are cloudy and the pacing is stuck in low gear. Almost all the rhythms are too softened up. Neptune: more slog. There's no thread to the line at all. Dreadful. No wonder Dave savaged this.
    The performances seem to get worse and worse the further out of the solar system you get.

    I'm listening on headphones. Calling the recording "distant" isn't really fair. That makes me think of Chandos recordings where the mics seemed further back and the stereo image was more compressed for it. Chandos was reasonably honest in exposing the
    tradeoffs in mic placement. Here we have stereo ambiance galore. And I'm not sure the mics are that distant at all; it's just there is so much ambiance, you do tend to lose the rhythmic line when quieter instruments are so submerged. This really is a
    recording where the more instruments play, the worse the sound is. The dynamics are fairly compressed, overall.

    C-

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  • From mswdesign@gmail.com@21:1/5 to All on Sat Apr 22 12:10:04 2023
    Someone check out Neptune from 4:18 to 4:28. Isn't that some sort of phase issue with the recording? There is no way that pulse pattern should be coming from the horns.

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