• Re: OT: The West as we know it faces a serious crisis | Maya Khurana |

    From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 23 03:47:07 2023
    Dress up any old Tom, Dick or Harriet to look important and stick them in front of a camera to simulate a current affairs or news item and what do you get....?

    .....any old Tom, Dick or Harriet and whatever random noises come out of their mouths. No more, no less. The "power of the Internet" is just an illusion.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Mar 23 04:01:48 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 11:51:16 UTC+1:
    The crisis the west is facing is personalized by the likes of Henk and Andy...

    *personified


    Let's all hear what Amnesty International (which Henk and Andy hold in high regards) had to say about Israel 2 days ago:

    "Demolish Apartheid, not Palestinian Homes.
    Demolish Apartheid, not Palestinian Homes.
    Demolish Apartheid, not Palestinian Homes.
    Demolish Apartheid, not Palestinian Homes. "

    https://twitter.com/amnesty/status/1638204572484214784

    Henk and Andy can chant along. And Pluted can join as well.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Mar 23 04:02:27 2023
    On Thursday, 23 March 2023 at 10:51:16 UTC, Marc S wrote:
    Let's all hear what Amnesty International (which Henk and Andy hold in high regards) had to say about Israel 2 days ago:

    I see the insects have started coming out of the woodwork again......

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 23 03:51:13 2023
    The crisis the west is facing is personalized by the likes of Henk and Andy...

    Let's all hear what Amnesty International (which Henk and Andy hold in high regards) had to say about Israel 2 days ago:

    "Demolish Apartheid, not Palestinian Homes.
    Demolish Apartheid, not Palestinian Homes.
    Demolish Apartheid, not Palestinian Homes.
    Demolish Apartheid, not Palestinian Homes. "

    https://twitter.com/amnesty/status/1638204572484214784

    Henk and Andy can chant along. And Pluted can join as well.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 23 03:32:50 2023
    Op donderdag 23 maart 2023 om 08:11:44 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:
    https://youtu.be/zrhhEJlw-e4

    All resident and visiting philosophers, thinkers,
    pundits, spectators, tinkerers, kibbitzers, are
    kindly invited to comment. I will stay out of
    the fray.

    TIA

    CIS is an Australian libertarian think-tank. It's a "classical libertarian" organization, according to Wiki. We may expect a typical Anglo-Saxon (colonialist, imperialist) view of the world.

    Henk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Thu Mar 23 04:06:44 2023
    Andy Evans schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 12:02:30 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, 23 March 2023 at 10:51:16 UTC, Marc S wrote:
    Let's all hear what Amnesty International (which Henk and Andy hold in high regards) had to say about Israel 2 days ago:
    I see the insects have started coming out of the woodwork again......

    Oh, now I am an insect... reminds me of how Nazis talked about jewish rats - you sure no how to dehumanize people. The so-called "liberals" of the UK... lol

    Are you a friend of Roger Waters?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Mar 23 04:08:04 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 12:06:47 UTC+1:
    Andy Evans schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 12:02:30 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, 23 March 2023 at 10:51:16 UTC, Marc S wrote:
    Let's all hear what Amnesty International (which Henk and Andy hold in high regards) had to say about Israel 2 days ago:
    I see the insects have started coming out of the woodwork again......
    Oh, now I am an insect... reminds me of how Nazis talked about jewish rats - you sure no how to dehumanize people. The so-called "liberals" of the UK... lol


    *know

    Are you a friend of Roger Waters?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Thu Mar 23 04:22:00 2023
    Andy Evans schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 12:16:31 UTC+1:
    Yet another thread on antisemitism is about as welcome here as a turd on an île flottante.....

    It is only logical that antisemites like you or Henk do not welcome threads about antisemitism. And it is also logical that you have to talk about antisemitism, because there are still enough ignorant antisemites like you or Henk around.

    If there were no antisemites on this ng there would be no need to talk about it...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 23 04:16:28 2023
    Yet another thread on antisemitism is about as welcome here as a turd on an île flottante.....

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 23 08:29:58 2023
    Op donderdag 23 maart 2023 om 11:47:10 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
    Dress up any old Tom, Dick or Harriet to look important and stick them in front of a camera to simulate a current affairs or news item and what do you get....?

    .....any old Tom, Dick or Harriet and whatever random noises come out of their mouths. No more, no less. The "power of the Internet" is just an illusion.

    Don't underestimate the power of the Internet. The CIS has 53K followers who believe they are libertarians but have become victims, like Maya Khurana, of Western propaganda.

    Henk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 23 08:37:58 2023
    On Thursday, 23 March 2023 at 15:30:02 UTC, HT wrote:
    Op donderdag 23 maart 2023 om 11:47:10 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
    Dress up any old Tom, Dick or Harriet to look important and stick them in front of a camera to simulate a current affairs or news item and what do you get....?

    .....any old Tom, Dick or Harriet and whatever random noises come out of their mouths. No more, no less. The "power of the Internet" is just an illusion.
    Don't underestimate the power of the Internet. The CIS has 53K followers who believe they are libertarians but have become victims, like Maya Khurana, of Western propaganda.
    Henk

    Unfortunately that's all too true for all the gullible people who imagine that anything that's dressed up like an "expert" actually has something of value to say.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 23 10:30:31 2023
    Interestingly even the EU-parliament considers Amnesty International antisemitic (using the same argumentation as I do wrt the antisemitic statements by Henk and Andy):

    Question: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-000932_EN.html

    "On 1 February 2022, Amnesty International issued a report entitled ‘Israel’s Apartheid against Palestinians – a cruel system of domination and a crime against humanity’ in which it alleges that apartheid was inherent in the founding of the State
    of Israel in 1948 and has been built on and maintained by successive Israeli governments.

    1. Does the Vice-President of the Commission / High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy (VP/HR) regard Israel as an apartheid state, given that – among others – Israel was created based on UN Resolution 181, more than
    10 % of Knesset Members are Arab Israelis, there are Arab Israeli judges, including at the Supreme Court, and an Arab party forms part of the current government?

    2. Does the VP/HR regard the report as antisemitic in the light of the non-legally binding International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism, given that it claims that the existence of the State of Israel is a racist endeavor (i.e.
    an apartheid state)?"

    Answer: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-000932-ASW_EN.html

    "The Commission is aware of the report referred to by the Honourable Members and is giving it due attention. In any case, the Commission considers that it is not appropriate to use the term apartheid in connection with the State of Israel.

    The Commission uses the non-legally binding working definition of antisemitism of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA definition) as a practical guidance tool and a basis for its work to combat antisemitism. Claiming that the existence
    of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour is amongst the illustrative examples included under the IHRA definition.

    The EU and its Member States will continue to closely monitor the developments on the ground. The respect of international humanitarian law and international human rights law by state and non-state actors, and accountability for violations committed, are
    a cornerstone for peace and security in the Middle East region.

    The EU remains committed to a negotiated two-State solution, based on international law, the 1967 lines, with equivalent land swaps, as may be agreed between the parties, with the State of Israel and an independent, democratic, contiguous, sovereign and
    viable State of Palestine[1], living side by side in peace, security and mutual recognition."

    -- Instead of reflecting; antisemites like Henk and Andy will ofc continue to read and cite Amnesty, err Antisemitic International and Al Jazeera.

    And these are the people who consider themselves "well-read", "educated" and "doing the right thing"... can't make this shit up.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Mar 23 10:41:00 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 18:30:34 UTC+1:
    Interestingly even the EU-parliament considers Amnesty International antisemitic (using the same argumentation as I do wrt the antisemitic statements by Henk and Andy):

    Question: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-000932_EN.html

    "On 1 February 2022, Amnesty International issued a report entitled ‘Israel’s Apartheid against Palestinians – a cruel system of domination and a crime against humanity’ in which it alleges that apartheid was inherent in the founding of the
    State of Israel in 1948 and has been built on and maintained by successive Israeli governments.

    1. Does the Vice-President of the Commission / High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy (VP/HR) regard Israel as an apartheid state, given that – among others – Israel was created based on UN Resolution 181, more
    than 10 % of Knesset Members are Arab Israelis, there are Arab Israeli judges, including at the Supreme Court, and an Arab party forms part of the current government?

    2. Does the VP/HR regard the report as antisemitic in the light of the non-legally binding International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism, given that it claims that the existence of the State of Israel is a racist endeavor (i.e.
    an apartheid state)?"

    Answer: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-000932-ASW_EN.html

    "The Commission is aware of the report referred to by the Honourable Members and is giving it due attention. In any case, the Commission considers that it is not appropriate to use the term apartheid in connection with the State of Israel.

    The Commission uses the non-legally binding working definition of antisemitism of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA definition) as a practical guidance tool and a basis for its work to combat antisemitism. Claiming that the
    existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour is amongst the illustrative examples included under the IHRA definition.

    The EU and its Member States will continue to closely monitor the developments on the ground. The respect of international humanitarian law and international human rights law by state and non-state actors, and accountability for violations committed,
    are a cornerstone for peace and security in the Middle East region.

    The EU remains committed to a negotiated two-State solution, based on international law, the 1967 lines, with equivalent land swaps, as may be agreed between the parties, with the State of Israel and an independent, democratic, contiguous, sovereign
    and viable State of Palestine[1], living side by side in peace, security and mutual recognition."

    -- Instead of reflecting; antisemites like Henk and Andy will ofc continue to read and cite Amnesty, err Antisemitic International and Al Jazeera.

    And these are the people who consider themselves "well-read", "educated" and "doing the right thing"... can't make this shit up.

    and not only that: but these are antisemites who consider themselves not to be antisemites... it's just ridiculous.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Mar 23 10:42:20 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 18:41:03 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 18:30:34 UTC+1:
    Interestingly even the EU-parliament considers Amnesty International antisemitic (using the same argumentation as I do wrt the antisemitic statements by Henk and Andy):

    Question: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-000932_EN.html

    "On 1 February 2022, Amnesty International issued a report entitled ‘Israel’s Apartheid against Palestinians – a cruel system of domination and a crime against humanity’ in which it alleges that apartheid was inherent in the founding of the
    State of Israel in 1948 and has been built on and maintained by successive Israeli governments.

    1. Does the Vice-President of the Commission / High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy (VP/HR) regard Israel as an apartheid state, given that – among others – Israel was created based on UN Resolution 181, more
    than 10 % of Knesset Members are Arab Israelis, there are Arab Israeli judges, including at the Supreme Court, and an Arab party forms part of the current government?

    2. Does the VP/HR regard the report as antisemitic in the light of the non-legally binding International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism, given that it claims that the existence of the State of Israel is a racist endeavor (i.
    e. an apartheid state)?"

    Answer: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-000932-ASW_EN.html

    "The Commission is aware of the report referred to by the Honourable Members and is giving it due attention. In any case, the Commission considers that it is not appropriate to use the term apartheid in connection with the State of Israel.

    The Commission uses the non-legally binding working definition of antisemitism of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA definition) as a practical guidance tool and a basis for its work to combat antisemitism. Claiming that the
    existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour is amongst the illustrative examples included under the IHRA definition.

    The EU and its Member States will continue to closely monitor the developments on the ground. The respect of international humanitarian law and international human rights law by state and non-state actors, and accountability for violations committed,
    are a cornerstone for peace and security in the Middle East region.

    The EU remains committed to a negotiated two-State solution, based on international law, the 1967 lines, with equivalent land swaps, as may be agreed between the parties, with the State of Israel and an independent, democratic, contiguous, sovereign
    and viable State of Palestine[1], living side by side in peace, security and mutual recognition."

    -- Instead of reflecting; antisemites like Henk and Andy will ofc continue to read and cite Amnesty, err Antisemitic International and Al Jazeera.

    And these are the people who consider themselves "well-read", "educated" and "doing the right thing"... can't make this shit up.
    and not only that: but these are antisemites who consider themselves not to be antisemites... it's just ridiculous.

    *I meant to say hilarious; i used the wrong word.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Gerard@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 23 11:28:59 2023
    Op donderdag 23 maart 2023 om 18:42:23 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 18:41:03 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 18:30:34 UTC+1:
    Interestingly even the EU-parliament considers Amnesty International antisemitic (using the same argumentation as I do wrt the antisemitic statements by Henk and Andy):

    Question: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-000932_EN.html

    "On 1 February 2022, Amnesty International issued a report entitled ‘Israel’s Apartheid against Palestinians – a cruel system of domination and a crime against humanity’ in which it alleges that apartheid was inherent in the founding of the
    State of Israel in 1948 and has been built on and maintained by successive Israeli governments.

    1. Does the Vice-President of the Commission / High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy (VP/HR) regard Israel as an apartheid state, given that – among others – Israel was created based on UN Resolution 181, more
    than 10 % of Knesset Members are Arab Israelis, there are Arab Israeli judges, including at the Supreme Court, and an Arab party forms part of the current government?

    2. Does the VP/HR regard the report as antisemitic in the light of the non-legally binding International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism, given that it claims that the existence of the State of Israel is a racist endeavor (
    i.e. an apartheid state)?"

    Answer: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-000932-ASW_EN.html

    "The Commission is aware of the report referred to by the Honourable Members and is giving it due attention. In any case, the Commission considers that it is not appropriate to use the term apartheid in connection with the State of Israel.

    The Commission uses the non-legally binding working definition of antisemitism of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA definition) as a practical guidance tool and a basis for its work to combat antisemitism. Claiming that the
    existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour is amongst the illustrative examples included under the IHRA definition.

    The EU and its Member States will continue to closely monitor the developments on the ground. The respect of international humanitarian law and international human rights law by state and non-state actors, and accountability for violations
    committed, are a cornerstone for peace and security in the Middle East region.

    The EU remains committed to a negotiated two-State solution, based on international law, the 1967 lines, with equivalent land swaps, as may be agreed between the parties, with the State of Israel and an independent, democratic, contiguous,
    sovereign and viable State of Palestine[1], living side by side in peace, security and mutual recognition."

    -- Instead of reflecting; antisemites like Henk and Andy will ofc continue to read and cite Amnesty, err Antisemitic International and Al Jazeera.

    And these are the people who consider themselves "well-read", "educated" and "doing the right thing"... can't make this shit up.
    and not only that: but these are antisemites who consider themselves not to be antisemites... it's just ridiculous.
    *I meant to say hilarious; i used the wrong word.

    Who cares?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Gerard on Thu Mar 23 11:33:20 2023
    Gerard schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 19:29:02 UTC+1:
    Op donderdag 23 maart 2023 om 18:42:23 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 18:41:03 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 18:30:34 UTC+1:
    Interestingly even the EU-parliament considers Amnesty International antisemitic (using the same argumentation as I do wrt the antisemitic statements by Henk and Andy):

    Question: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-000932_EN.html

    "On 1 February 2022, Amnesty International issued a report entitled ‘Israel’s Apartheid against Palestinians – a cruel system of domination and a crime against humanity’ in which it alleges that apartheid was inherent in the founding of
    the State of Israel in 1948 and has been built on and maintained by successive Israeli governments.

    1. Does the Vice-President of the Commission / High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy (VP/HR) regard Israel as an apartheid state, given that – among others – Israel was created based on UN Resolution 181,
    more than 10 % of Knesset Members are Arab Israelis, there are Arab Israeli judges, including at the Supreme Court, and an Arab party forms part of the current government?

    2. Does the VP/HR regard the report as antisemitic in the light of the non-legally binding International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition of antisemitism, given that it claims that the existence of the State of Israel is a racist
    endeavor (i.e. an apartheid state)?"

    Answer: https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-9-2022-000932-ASW_EN.html

    "The Commission is aware of the report referred to by the Honourable Members and is giving it due attention. In any case, the Commission considers that it is not appropriate to use the term apartheid in connection with the State of Israel.

    The Commission uses the non-legally binding working definition of antisemitism of the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance (IHRA definition) as a practical guidance tool and a basis for its work to combat antisemitism. Claiming that the
    existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavour is amongst the illustrative examples included under the IHRA definition.

    The EU and its Member States will continue to closely monitor the developments on the ground. The respect of international humanitarian law and international human rights law by state and non-state actors, and accountability for violations
    committed, are a cornerstone for peace and security in the Middle East region.

    The EU remains committed to a negotiated two-State solution, based on international law, the 1967 lines, with equivalent land swaps, as may be agreed between the parties, with the State of Israel and an independent, democratic, contiguous,
    sovereign and viable State of Palestine[1], living side by side in peace, security and mutual recognition."

    -- Instead of reflecting; antisemites like Henk and Andy will ofc continue to read and cite Amnesty, err Antisemitic International and Al Jazeera.

    And these are the people who consider themselves "well-read", "educated" and "doing the right thing"... can't make this shit up.
    and not only that: but these are antisemites who consider themselves not to be antisemites... it's just ridiculous.
    *I meant to say hilarious; i used the wrong word.
    Who cares?

    Art thou speaking for everyone?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Thu Mar 23 18:15:08 2023
    On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 12:11:44 AM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
    https://youtu.be/zrhhEJlw-e4

    All resident and visiting philosophers, thinkers,
    pundits, spectators, tinkerers, kibbitzers, are
    kindly invited to comment. I will stay out of
    the fray.


    So far I have not seen any real, professional
    discussion as requested. Only mud slinging
    by known parties.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to All on Thu Mar 23 21:30:54 2023
    On 3/23/2023 6:32 AM, HT wrote:
    Op donderdag 23 maart 2023 om 08:11:44 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:
    https://youtu.be/zrhhEJlw-e4

    All resident and visiting philosophers, thinkers,
    pundits, spectators, tinkerers, kibbitzers, are
    kindly invited to comment. I will stay out of
    the fray.

    TIA

    CIS is an Australian libertarian think-tank. It's a "classical libertarian" organization, according to Wiki. We may expect a typical Anglo-Saxon (colonialist, imperialist) view of the world.

    Henk


    It says "classical liberal" not "classical libertarian." The article says nothing about foreign policy. I would be surprised if the CIS is colonialist or imperialist. There are many strains in Libertarianism (certainly more than I understand), some
    virtually isolationist. Some libertarians believe that a non-representative government has no rights, such that a representative government trying to overthrow it is ethical and moral. Whether it is smart is a different matter.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Thu Mar 23 19:33:18 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 02:15:12 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 12:11:44 AM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
    https://youtu.be/zrhhEJlw-e4

    All resident and visiting philosophers, thinkers,
    pundits, spectators, tinkerers, kibbitzers, are
    kindly invited to comment. I will stay out of
    the fray.

    So far I have not seen any real, professional
    discussion as requested. Only mud slinging
    by known parties.

    dk

    I just loved how Henk and Andy were being completely unreasonable in the first place... Henk didn't manage to read past the first two sentences on wikipedia, and came up with an argument that not true... well not completely, as contrary to Frank's belief,
    CIS actually seems a bit colonialist and imperialist sort of, I mean... their research program according to wikpedia includes:

    "China and free societies"

    ... China is not colonialist or imperialist? Nooooo... ofc not.

    "think" tank...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Pluted Pup@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Thu Mar 23 21:21:57 2023
    On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 18:15:08 -0700, Dan Koren wrote:

    On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 12:11:44???AM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
    https://youtu.be/zrhhEJlw-e4

    All resident and visiting philosophers, thinkers,
    pundits, spectators, tinkerers, kibbitzers, are
    kindly invited to comment. I will stay out of
    the fray.

    So far I have not seen any real, professional
    discussion as requested. Only mud slinging
    by known parties.

    The link has no useful description to the video,
    so I take it as not worth viewing, just another
    troll video. If they have a point they'll say
    it in writing.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Pluted Pup on Thu Mar 23 21:52:01 2023
    On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 9:22:09 PM UTC-7, Pluted Pup wrote:
    On Thu, 23 Mar 2023 18:15:08 -0700, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 12:11:44???AM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
    https://youtu.be/zrhhEJlw-e4

    All resident and visiting philosophers, thinkers,
    pundits, spectators, tinkerers, kibbitzers, are
    kindly invited to comment. I will stay out of
    the fray.

    So far I have not seen any real, professional
    discussion as requested. Only mud slinging
    by known parties.

    The link has no useful description to the video,
    so I take it as not worth viewing, just another
    troll video. If they have a point they'll say
    it in writing.

    The link has exactly the title of the video as
    published on YouTube. If that is not a useful
    description to your mind, you are incapable
    of reading and thinking. One wonders how
    you manage to count the CDs in a box.

    There is also no point in notifying the rest
    of the group that you do not want to view
    a video, or you did not open it.

    One question that comes to mind every
    time you say something is whether you
    ever worked in military intelligence. Are
    you a former military guy?

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Fri Mar 24 02:09:04 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 08:11:44 UTC+1:
    https://youtu.be/zrhhEJlw-e4

    All resident and visiting philosophers, thinkers,
    pundits, spectators, tinkerers, kibbitzers, are
    kindly invited to comment. I will stay out of
    the fray.

    TIA

    What I said before was bullshit... It just dawned upon me that I misunderstood the research program (China and free societies; I thought they viewed China as a free society... while they actually address the problems free societies face because of China;
    just checked their page).

    After having realized this, I actually watched the video.

    She says right things, but I guess also some wrong things... the problem is that she is too condensed. The problems she is naming all need to be elaborated further; explaining them etc.

    For sure she is right about "cancel culture" and people "needing safe places" (you see Herman getting "offended" by opinions different from his own, needing a safe place; or people like you Dan "boycotting" spotify because of Joe Rogan).

    Basically Twitter was a safe place for all the woke people before Elon Musk (who I don't fancy, but who did many right things with Twitter) took over. And the woke people here don't even realize how woke they are themselves (Andy, Henk, Herman, Gerard,
    mswd etc).

    Glad the things have changed on Twitter.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Mar 24 02:11:28 2023
    On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 2:09:06 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    the woke people here don't even realize how woke they
    are themselves (Andy, Henk, Herman, Gerard, mswd etc).


    There is no wokeness on r.m.c.r.. Only yawness.

    dk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Mar 24 02:12:08 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 10:09:06 UTC+1:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 08:11:44 UTC+1:
    https://youtu.be/zrhhEJlw-e4

    All resident and visiting philosophers, thinkers,
    pundits, spectators, tinkerers, kibbitzers, are
    kindly invited to comment. I will stay out of
    the fray.

    TIA
    What I said before was bullshit... It just dawned upon me that I misunderstood the research program (China and free societies; I thought they viewed China as a free society... while they actually address the problems free societies face because of
    China; just checked their page).

    After having realized this, I actually watched the video.

    She says right things, but I guess also some wrong things... the problem is that she is too condensed. The problems she is naming all need to be elaborated further; explaining them etc.

    For sure she is right about "cancel culture" and people "needing safe places" (you see Herman getting "offended" by opinions different from his own, needing a safe place; or people like you Dan "boycotting" spotify because of Joe Rogan).

    Basically Twitter was a safe place for all the woke people before Elon Musk (who I don't fancy, but who did many right things with Twitter) took over. And the woke people here don't even realize how woke they are themselves (Andy, Henk, Herman, Gerard,
    mswd etc).

    Glad the things have changed on Twitter.

    Dan... even though I don't think it would be a reason to boycott spotify, Roger Waters would be a much more legitimate reason to boycott spotify than Joe Rogan...

    And btw: I was not slinging mud at anyone; I just pointed out the mud that is already on the face of Andy, Henk and Herman etc. No need to sling mud, as they seem to bath in it.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Fri Mar 24 02:20:54 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 10:11:31 UTC+1:
    On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 2:09:06 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    the woke people here don't even realize how woke they
    are themselves (Andy, Henk, Herman, Gerard, mswd etc).

    There is no wokeness on r.m.c.r.. Only yawness.

    dk

    I think you are mistaken again... Wokies are usually yawn-inducing; and that's where you have to start making fun of it.

    As Marx said (roughly translated):

    "We must make these petrified, reified relations dance by chanting before them their own melody."

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 24 02:53:47 2023
    Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 02:31:07 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:

    It says "classical liberal" not "classical libertarian." The article says nothing about foreign policy. I would be surprised if the CIS is colonialist or imperialist. There are many strains in Libertarianism (certainly more than I understand), some
    virtually isolationist. Some libertarians believe that a non-representative government has no rights, such that a representative government trying to overthrow it is ethical and moral. Whether it is smart is a different matter.

    "The Centre for Independent Studies (CIS) is an Australian libertarian think tank founded in 1976 which specialises in public policy research.[1] It is based in Sydney and focuses on classical liberal issues such as free markets and limited government."

    Indeed. It is a libertarian think tank focussing on classical liberal issues.

    Henk

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 24 03:28:45 2023
    On Friday, 24 March 2023 at 09:53:50 UTC, HT wrote:

    Indeed. It is a libertarian think tank focussing on classical liberal issues.
    Henk

    Libertarian thinking and economics is the last thing we need in a new world where legislation and government action needs to control fossil fuel emissions. The free market has no chance of enforcing the action needed. No chance at all. Bankers are now in
    the process of monetising and speculating on water to see how they can profit from trading water. Libertarianism is for the rich and privileged, not the common man or the planet.

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 24 03:58:48 2023
    Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 11:28:47 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
    On Friday, 24 March 2023 at 09:53:50 UTC, HT wrote:

    Indeed. It is a libertarian think tank focussing on classical liberal issues.
    Henk
    Libertarian thinking and economics is the last thing we need in a new world where legislation and government action needs to control fossil fuel emissions. The free market has no chance of enforcing the action needed. No chance at all. Bankers are now
    in the process of monetising and speculating on water to see how they can profit from trading water. Libertarianism is for the rich and privileged, not the common man or the planet.

    As Frank says, there are all kinds of libertarians. The CIS promotes Western values. That missionary zeal is the root of all evil.

    Just one example (innocent compared to what happens in the rest of the world):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQB64C7GqoY

    Unless we drastically change our value-system, we won't be able save Homo sapiens.

    Henk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Fri Mar 24 03:55:46 2023
    Andy Evans schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 11:28:47 UTC+1:
    On Friday, 24 March 2023 at 09:53:50 UTC, HT wrote:

    Indeed. It is a libertarian think tank focussing on classical liberal issues.
    Henk
    Libertarian thinking and economics is the last thing we need in a new world where legislation and government action needs to control fossil fuel emissions. The free market has no chance of enforcing the action needed. No chance at all. Bankers are now
    in the process of monetising and speculating on water to see how they can profit from trading water. Libertarianism is for the rich and privileged, not the common man or the planet.

    Those evil bankers... responsible for all the bad in the world... evil evil evil

    Actually it's the opposite, being woke is for the rich and priviledged (do you think poor people can afford ethically sourced food?, they surely have different problems, problems you never heard of):

    "Only the rich can afford to be woke" - https://unherd.com/2021/04/only-the-rich-can-afford-to-be-woke/

    "The story of the country’s economic woes is of course vastly more complicated than this simple vignette, but it does speak to a thread that unites Wokeism in the First and Third worlds. In the same way that you can’t get a permit to sell fruit in
    Tunisia without paying baksheesh to someone’s cousin’s brother’s uncle who’s in the cops, lately in the West, it is becoming harder and harder to do business with large organisations, both public and private, without first paying tithes to their
    diversity systems, their climate goals and all manner of gestural politics, rather than their basic economics.

    Inevitably, whenever an organisation ceases to be interested in its core mission, and instead becomes wrapped up in side-quests like race balancing or “decolonisation”, its output begins to sag. Today, that everyday Third World issue, the detachment
    of efficacy from employment, is beginning to visit itself upon the First. For those in the West who like to lean into their White Guilt, it might even be inspiring to know that — just by wandering through yet another listless art exhibition made to
    serve political ends rather than cultural — they too can experience a very common kind of Third World problem."

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Fri Mar 24 03:33:13 2023
    On Friday, March 24, 2023 at 3:28:47 AM UTC-7, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Friday, 24 March 2023 at 09:53:50 UTC, HT wrote:

    Indeed. It is a libertarian think tank focussing on classical liberal issues.

    Libertarian thinking and economics is the last thing we need in a new world where legislation and government action needs to control fossil
    fuel emissions. The free market has no chance of enforcing the action needed. No chance at all. Bankers are now in the process of monetising
    and speculating on water to see how they can profit from trading water. Libertarianism is for the rich and privileged, not the common man or the planet.

    I hope you have a bullet proof vest and an asbestos suit.

    dk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 24 06:46:44 2023
    HT schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 11:58:51 UTC+1:
    Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 11:28:47 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
    On Friday, 24 March 2023 at 09:53:50 UTC, HT wrote:

    Indeed. It is a libertarian think tank focussing on classical liberal issues.
    Henk
    Libertarian thinking and economics is the last thing we need in a new world where legislation and government action needs to control fossil fuel emissions. The free market has no chance of enforcing the action needed. No chance at all. Bankers are
    now in the process of monetising and speculating on water to see how they can profit from trading water. Libertarianism is for the rich and privileged, not the common man or the planet.
    As Frank says, there are all kinds of libertarians. The CIS promotes Western values. That missionary zeal is the root of all evil.
    "
    South Korea, Japan and Hongkong seem to have been doing quite well after adopting Western values... Promoting western values does not seem like "the root of all evil" to me... Henk, you seem "a bit" brainwashed - "root of all evil" = west and the white
    men; no need to hate yourself, Henk; you really are not that bad. Maybe it's time for "Palestinians" and the Afghans and the like to adopt some western values?

    Your hatred for the west seems to be much more problematic than "Western values".


    Just one example (innocent compared to what happens in the rest of the world):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQB64C7GqoY

    Unless we drastically change our value-system, we won't be able save Homo sapiens.

    lol... Henk, no need to be insane... chill out, the world is not going under if we won't "drastically" change our value-system; to me it rather seems that islamic countries and "communist" countries would need to change their value systems...

    Leftists like Henk have the following idea: White men are responsible for everything "bad" in the world

    - Climate change = because of white men; and if we don't do anything against it, the world will go under
    - Promoting Western values is the root of all evil = white men are the root of all evil; and if we don't do anything to change our values, the humans will become extinct...

    etc etc

    Does anyone see a pattern within leftist politics? Self-hatred, Hatred for the west, White-Guilt etc.

    Surely either the Jews or the white men are responsible for all the evil in this world; at least according to all the Henks and Andys.

    Oh god must it suck to be Henk or Andy...


    Henk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 24 07:11:12 2023
    Henk sounds like Chamenei when he says that promoting western values = root of all evil.

    How dare we allow Homosexuality - god forbid... not to mention all the other sinful behaviour we allow...

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Mar 24 06:52:59 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 14:46:46 UTC+1:
    HT schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 11:58:51 UTC+1:
    Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 11:28:47 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
    On Friday, 24 March 2023 at 09:53:50 UTC, HT wrote:

    Indeed. It is a libertarian think tank focussing on classical liberal issues.
    Henk
    Libertarian thinking and economics is the last thing we need in a new world where legislation and government action needs to control fossil fuel emissions. The free market has no chance of enforcing the action needed. No chance at all. Bankers are
    now in the process of monetising and speculating on water to see how they can profit from trading water. Libertarianism is for the rich and privileged, not the common man or the planet.
    As Frank says, there are all kinds of libertarians. The CIS promotes Western values. That missionary zeal is the root of all evil.
    "
    South Korea, Japan and Hongkong seem to have been doing quite well after adopting Western values... Promoting western values does not seem like "the root of all evil" to me... Henk, you seem "a bit" brainwashed - "root of all evil" = west and the white
    men; no need to hate yourself, Henk; you really are not that bad. Maybe it's time for "Palestinians" and the Afghans and the like to adopt some western values?

    Your hatred for the west seems to be much more problematic than "Western values".

    Just one example (innocent compared to what happens in the rest of the world):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQB64C7GqoY

    Unless we drastically change our value-system, we won't be able save Homo sapiens.
    lol... Henk, no need to be insane... chill out, the world is not going under if we won't "drastically" change our value-system; to me it rather seems that islamic countries and "communist" countries would need to change their value systems...

    Leftists like Henk have the following idea: White men are responsible for everything "bad" in the world

    - Climate change = because of white men; and if we don't do anything against it, the world will go under
    - Promoting Western values is the root of all evil = white men are the root of all evil; and if we don't do anything to change our values, the humans will become extinct...


    *white men are responsible for capitalism
    *white men are respinsible for slavery
    *white men are responsible for issues in Afghanistan
    *white men are responsible for issues in Iraq
    *white men are responsible for the issues surrounding Israel and Palestine *white men are responsible for all the wars
    *white men are responsible for the backwardness of the colonized countries *white men are responsible for ruining the planet

    etc etc

    One should maybe ask oneself: Were it only the white men that did this stuff (slavery, colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a responsibility themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the Germans had a responsibility themselves for
    the shoah, and not just Hitler and the circumstances Germany was in after WW1?

    etc etc

    Does anyone see a pattern within leftist politics? Self-hatred, Hatred for the west, White-Guilt etc.

    Surely either the Jews or the white men are responsible for all the evil in this world; at least according to all the Henks and Andys.

    Oh god must it suck to be Henk or Andy...


    Henk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Mar 24 07:19:35 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 15:11:14 UTC+1:
    Henk sounds like Chamenei when he says that promoting western values = root of all evil.

    How dare we allow Homosexuality - god forbid... not to mention all the other sinful behaviour we allow...

    How dare we promote democratic ideas...

    god forbid... if we promote democratic ideas the world will go under; democracy - a western idea - is ofc evil, because you know, it is western.

    If only the West didn't exist the world would be a peaceful place.

    I think to save the planet we need to get rid of the white men; or the Jews; or rather both.

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 24 10:38:21 2023
    On 3/24/2023 5:53 AM, HT wrote:
    Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 02:31:07 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:

    It says "classical liberal" not "classical libertarian." The article says nothing about foreign policy. I would be surprised if the CIS is colonialist or imperialist. There are many strains in Libertarianism (certainly more than I understand), some
    virtually isolationist. Some libertarians believe that a non-representative government has no rights, such that a representative government trying to overthrow it is ethical and moral. Whether it is smart is a different matter.

    "The Centre for Independent Studies (CIS) is an Australian libertarian think tank founded in 1976 which specialises in public policy research.[1] It is based in Sydney and focuses on classical liberal issues such as free markets and limited government."

    Indeed. It is a libertarian think tank focussing on classical liberal issues.

    Henk

    I knew that. Did you think you were correcting something I said? Not sure why you didn't address my main point which was about libertarians not generally being colonialist or imperialist.

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 24 10:45:22 2023
    On 3/24/2023 6:58 AM, HT wrote:
    Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 11:28:47 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
    On Friday, 24 March 2023 at 09:53:50 UTC, HT wrote:

    Indeed. It is a libertarian think tank focussing on classical liberal issues.
    Henk
    Libertarian thinking and economics is the last thing we need in a new world where legislation and government action needs to control fossil fuel emissions. The free market has no chance of enforcing the action needed. No chance at all. Bankers are now
    in the process of monetising and speculating on water to see how they can profit from trading water. Libertarianism is for the rich and privileged, not the common man or the planet.

    As Frank says, there are all kinds of libertarians. The CIS promotes Western values. That missionary zeal is the root of all evil.

    Just one example (innocent compared to what happens in the rest of the world):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQB64C7GqoY

    Unless we drastically change our value-system, we won't be able save Homo sapiens.

    Henk

    What if homo sapiens is not worth saving?

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Fri Mar 24 07:51:46 2023
    Frank Berger schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 15:45:35 UTC+1:
    On 3/24/2023 6:58 AM, HT wrote:
    Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 11:28:47 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
    On Friday, 24 March 2023 at 09:53:50 UTC, HT wrote:

    Indeed. It is a libertarian think tank focussing on classical liberal issues.
    Henk
    Libertarian thinking and economics is the last thing we need in a new world where legislation and government action needs to control fossil fuel emissions. The free market has no chance of enforcing the action needed. No chance at all. Bankers are
    now in the process of monetising and speculating on water to see how they can profit from trading water. Libertarianism is for the rich and privileged, not the common man or the planet.

    As Frank says, there are all kinds of libertarians. The CIS promotes Western values. That missionary zeal is the root of all evil.

    Just one example (innocent compared to what happens in the rest of the world):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQB64C7GqoY

    Unless we drastically change our value-system, we won't be able save Homo sapiens.

    Henk
    What if homo sapiens is not worth saving?

    My dear friend... we should at least save them until the 3rd temple is build!

    And Henk seems to be the white-saviour the world has been waiting for, maybe he is the moshiach?

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 24 08:59:42 2023
    I knew that. Did you think you were correcting something I said? Not sure why you didn't address my main point which was about libertarians not generally being colonialist or imperialist.

    I was correcting myself. The CIS is colonialist/imperialist. It sees China as the most important threat to Western values.

    Henk

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 24 08:38:50 2023
    What if homo sapiens is not worth saving?

    I don't know if Homo sapiens is worth saving. The fact that this has become not only a theoretical but also a practical question reflects the current human condition.

    Henk

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 24 12:06:45 2023
    On 3/24/2023 11:59 AM, HT wrote:
    I knew that. Did you think you were correcting something I said? Not sure why you didn't address my main point which was about libertarians not generally being colonialist or imperialist.

    I was correcting myself. The CIS is colonialist/imperialist. It sees China as the most important threat to Western values.


    Which doesn't make them colonialist/imperialist necessarily, as far as I can see.

    I also don't see how the "values" of a brutal, tyrannical, expansionist regime can not be a threat to "western values," assuming we mean by that, at base, respect for the individual.

    Henk




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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 24 11:04:40 2023
    Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 17:06:58 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:

    Which doesn't make them colonialist/imperialist necessarily, as far as I can see.

    The CIS feels threatened by non-identity. That would be okay if it looked for ways to learn to live with it. It doesn't.

    Nor do I see how the "values" of a brutal, tyrannical, expansionist regime cannot be a threat to "Western values", assuming by that we mean basic respect for the individual.

    General Langley of the Africa Corps leaves no doubt that we need not look far for an expansionist regime. His Corps acted entirely in line with American core values by toppling US-unfriendly regimes.

    The individual is a recent discovery. Respect for the individual is a Western value in name only. We have never learned how to deal with this phenomenon.
    Governments make rules, based on algorithms and (political) majorities. Individuals are able to adapt, or not.. For those who cannot there are special rules that make life unpleasant. Source: current history of the Netherlands.

    Henk

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  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Mar 24 14:42:13 2023
    On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:

    One should maybe ask oneself: Were it only the white men that did this
    stuff (slavery, colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a responsibility themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the
    Germans had a responsibility themselves for the shoah, and not just
    Hitler and the circumstances Germany was in after WW1?

    "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in a
    much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer the question
    posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you white people
    developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we black
    people had little cargo of our own?"

    -Owen

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 24 11:32:53 2023
    HT schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 19:04:43 UTC+1:
    Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 17:06:58 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:
    Which doesn't make them colonialist/imperialist necessarily, as far as I can see.
    The CIS feels threatened by non-identity. That would be okay if it looked for ways to learn to live with it. It doesn't.

    Nor do I see how the "values" of a brutal, tyrannical, expansionist regime cannot be a threat to "Western values", assuming by that we mean basic respect for the individual.

    General Langley of the Africa Corps leaves no doubt that we need not look far for an expansionist regime. His Corps acted entirely in line with American core values by toppling US-unfriendly regimes.

    The individual is a recent discovery. Respect for the individual is a Western value in name only. We have never learned how to deal with this phenomenon.

    Well... I think it is time for you, Henk, to live under the Taliban and then you might learn that while the west may not be perfect, "the west" respects the individual far more than any other region.

    Governments make rules, based on algorithms and (political) majorities. Individuals are able to adapt, or not.. For those who cannot there are special rules that make life unpleasant. Source: current history of the Netherlands.

    1st world problems... Henk, go live under the Taliban...


    Henk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Mar 24 11:39:43 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 19:32:56 UTC+1:
    HT schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 19:04:43 UTC+1:
    Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 17:06:58 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:
    Which doesn't make them colonialist/imperialist necessarily, as far as I can see.
    The CIS feels threatened by non-identity. That would be okay if it looked for ways to learn to live with it. It doesn't.

    Nor do I see how the "values" of a brutal, tyrannical, expansionist regime cannot be a threat to "Western values", assuming by that we mean basic respect for the individual.

    General Langley of the Africa Corps leaves no doubt that we need not look far for an expansionist regime. His Corps acted entirely in line with American core values by toppling US-unfriendly regimes.

    The individual is a recent discovery. Respect for the individual is a Western value in name only. We have never learned how to deal with this phenomenon.
    Well... I think it is time for you, Henk, to live under the Taliban and then you might learn that while the west may not be perfect, "the west" respects the individual far more than any other region.
    Governments make rules, based on algorithms and (political) majorities. Individuals are able to adapt, or not.. For those who cannot there are special rules that make life unpleasant. Source: current history of the Netherlands.
    1st world problems... Henk, go live under the Taliban...


    Henk

    *not to take away from the problems the farmers and the people who didn't want to get vaccinated etc face(d) from the current government in the Netherlands; this is serious shit. And guess who voted for these crazy climate and covid obsessed (among other
    things) politicians? I think it must have been your generation and the generations after you...

    thanks to all the german and other european and non-european merkel-lovers, europe (and the US) is in a pretty bad shape. Not solely Merkel's fault, but to a large part I think, yes.

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 24 14:43:19 2023
    On 3/24/2023 2:04 PM, HT wrote:
    Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 17:06:58 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:

    Which doesn't make them colonialist/imperialist necessarily, as far as I can see.

    The CIS feels threatened by non-identity. That would be okay if it looked for ways to learn to live with it. It doesn't.

    Nor do I see how the "values" of a brutal, tyrannical, expansionist regime cannot be a threat to "Western values", assuming by that we mean basic respect for the individual.

    General Langley of the Africa Corps leaves no doubt that we need not look far for an expansionist regime. His Corps acted entirely in line with American core values by toppling US-unfriendly regimes.

    The individual is a recent discovery. Respect for the individual is a Western value in name only. We have never learned how to deal with this phenomenon.
    Governments make rules, based on algorithms and (political) majorities. Individuals are able to adapt, or not.. For those who cannot there are special rules that make life unpleasant. Source: current history of the Netherlands.

    Henk



    Nothing is perfect. A vote that counts (even only in aggregation) is respect for the individual. Do any "Western Democracies" (presumably espousing or reflecting "Western Values" govern by simple majority rule? Do they not all have guarantees for
    minority rights in some form or other? Whatever the imperfections exist in "Democracy," equating it to tyranny is ridiculous.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Fri Mar 24 12:17:04 2023
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:
    On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:

    One should maybe ask oneself: Were it only the white men that did this stuff (slavery, colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a responsibility themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the Germans had a responsibility themselves for the shoah, and not just
    Hitler and the circumstances Germany was in after WW1?
    "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in a
    much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer the question
    posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you white people developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we black
    people had little cargo of our own?"

    -Owen

    But thanks for mentioning it. Maybe I'll look into it further.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 24 12:43:00 2023
    On Friday, 24 March 2023 at 18:04:43 UTC, HT wrote:
    The individual is a recent discovery. Respect for the individual is a Western value in name only. We have never learned how to deal with this phenomenon.
    Henk

    That's quite a profound observation, and very much in tune with Anthony Storr, the English psychiatrist, psychoanalyst, and author. I can't remember in which of his many books he talks about this. Fascinating man - I did a radio programme with him once
    discussing creativity. One of my heroes. He was very asthmatic and hated travelling, even to a radio studio.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Fri Mar 24 12:16:07 2023
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:
    On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:

    One should maybe ask oneself: Were it only the white men that did this stuff (slavery, colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a responsibility themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the Germans had a responsibility themselves for the shoah, and not just
    Hitler and the circumstances Germany was in after WW1?
    "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in a
    much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer the question
    posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you white people developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we black
    people had little cargo of our own?"

    -Owen

    What do you mean in a much more broader and deeper sense... You never talked to me about this in depth (New Guinea being sth different than islamic countries btw), I also never wrote a book about the questions I asked which you maybe could have read, but
    I could I think and I am fairly certain, without even knowing Jared Diamond, that I could answer it in a much more truthful sense. I am not saying that the book of Diamond might not contain something truthful etc; but I am very certain he would lack a
    lot of stuff needed for this endeavour (Marx, Freud, Adorno etc).

    In short however: It's "ideologies" that shape the consciousness of the different people (now New Guinea as an island is isolated, so this contributes to customs being stale, as there is not much different information being received etc), and this in the
    end explains why some people didn't develop as much.

    Islam as an ideology prevents individuals from progressing from a pyschological viewpoint, this hinders societies to progress. The Taliban or the "Palestinians" basically represent a revolt against the modern world (similar to the Nazis btw) which is too
    complex for them, which they can't understand; they prefer tribal structures, an easy and simple life. It is like a child that refuses to grow up to face the real world.

    Islam is dfferent from Judaism and both is different from Christianity; ideologies are different and affect people differently.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Fri Mar 24 12:19:20 2023
    Frank Berger schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 19:43:32 UTC+1:
    On 3/24/2023 2:04 PM, HT wrote:
    Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 17:06:58 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:

    Which doesn't make them colonialist/imperialist necessarily, as far as I can see.

    The CIS feels threatened by non-identity. That would be okay if it looked for ways to learn to live with it. It doesn't.

    Nor do I see how the "values" of a brutal, tyrannical, expansionist regime cannot be a threat to "Western values", assuming by that we mean basic respect for the individual.

    General Langley of the Africa Corps leaves no doubt that we need not look far for an expansionist regime. His Corps acted entirely in line with American core values by toppling US-unfriendly regimes.

    The individual is a recent discovery. Respect for the individual is a Western value in name only. We have never learned how to deal with this phenomenon.
    Governments make rules, based on algorithms and (political) majorities. Individuals are able to adapt, or not.. For those who cannot there are special rules that make life unpleasant. Source: current history of the Netherlands.

    Henk


    Nothing is perfect. A vote that counts (even only in aggregation) is respect for the individual. Do any "Western Democracies" (presumably espousing or reflecting "Western Values" govern by simple majority rule? Do they not all have guarantees for
    minority rights in some form or other? Whatever the imperfections exist in "Democracy," equating it to tyranny is ridiculous.

    I agree. So obvious, yet Henk doesn't see it...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 24 12:50:35 2023
    Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 20:43:02 UTC+1 schreef Andy Evans:
    On Friday, 24 March 2023 at 18:04:43 UTC, HT wrote:
    The individual is a recent discovery. Respect for the individual is a Western value in name only. We have never learned how to deal with this phenomenon.
    Henk

    That's quite a profound observation, and very much in tune with Anthony Storr, the English psychiatrist, psychoanalyst, and author. I can't remember in which of his many books he talks about this. Fascinating man - I did a radio programme with him once
    discussing creativity. One of my heroes. He was very asthmatic and hated travelling, even to a radio studio.

    I remember his name, and remember having read at least one book by him (forgot the title).

    Henk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Fri Mar 24 12:55:11 2023
    Nothing is perfect. A vote that counts (even only in aggregation) is respect for the individual.

    Do you really feel respected as an individual if you vote for a political party that doesn't keep its promises?

    Do any "Western Democracies" (presumably espousing or reflecting "Western Values" govern by simple majority rule?

    Yes. The majority may decide to vote against the interests of the majority. Some rules are based on rules of a higher order (treaties, laws, contracts etc. etc.).

    Do they not all have guarantees for minority rights in some form or other? Whatever the imperfections exist in "Democracy," equating it to tyranny is ridiculous.

    Minority rights, even human rights are guaranteed by a majority or a higher rule. All this has nothing to do with respect for the individual as an individual. It is 'ideology'-based, not based on care for the individual (implying care for his 'world').

    Henk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Mar 24 16:25:54 2023
    On 2023-03-24 19:16:07 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. Mrz 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:
    On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:> >> > One should maybe ask
    oneself: Were it only the white men that did this> > stuff (slavery,
    colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a> > responsibility
    themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the> > Germans had a
    responsibility themselves for the shoah, and not just> > Hitler and the
    circumstances Germany was in after WW1?
    "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in a>
    much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer the question>
    posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you white people>
    developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we black>
    people had little cargo of our own?">> -Owen

    What do you mean in a much more broader and deeper sense... You never
    talked to me about this in depth (New Guinea being sth different than
    islamic countries btw), I also never wrote a book about the questions I
    asked which you maybe could have read, but I could I think and I am
    fairly certain, without even knowing Jared Diamond, that I could answer
    it in a much more truthful sense. I am not saying that the book of
    Diamond might not contain something truthful etc; but I am very certain
    he would lack a lot of stuff needed for this endeavour (Marx, Freud,
    Adorno etc).

    In short however: It's "ideologies" that shape the consciousness of the different people (now New Guinea as an island is isolated, so this contributes to customs being stale, as there is not much different information being received etc), and this in the end explains why some
    people didn't develop as much.

    Islam as an ideology prevents individuals from progressing from a pyschological viewpoint, this hinders societies to progress. The
    Taliban or the "Palestinians" basically represent a revolt against the
    modern world (similar to the Nazis btw) which is too complex for them,
    which they can't understand; they prefer tribal structures, an easy and simple life. It is like a child that refuses to grow up to face the
    real world.

    Islam is dfferent from Judaism and both is different from Christianity; ideologies are different and affect people differently.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Mar 24 16:35:31 2023
    On 2023-03-24 19:16:07 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. Mrz 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:
    On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:> >> > One should maybe ask
    oneself: Were it only the white men that did this> > stuff (slavery,
    colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a> > responsibility
    themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the> > Germans had a
    responsibility themselves for the shoah, and not just> > Hitler and the
    circumstances Germany was in after WW1?
    "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in a>
    much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer the question>
    posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you white people>
    developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we black>
    people had little cargo of our own?">> -Owen

    What do you mean in a much more broader and deeper sense... You never
    talked to me about this in depth (New Guinea being sth different than
    islamic countries btw), I also never wrote a book about the questions I
    asked which you maybe could have read, but I could I think and I am
    fairly certain, without even knowing Jared Diamond, that I could answer
    it in a much more truthful sense. I am not saying that the book of
    Diamond might not contain something truthful etc; but I am very certain
    he would lack a lot of stuff needed for this endeavour (Marx, Freud,
    Adorno etc).

    In short however: It's "ideologies" that shape the consciousness of the different people (now New Guinea as an island is isolated, so this contributes to customs being stale, as there is not much different information being received etc), and this in the end explains why some
    people didn't develop as much.

    Diamond goes back tens of thousands of years to figure out why western civilization ended up on top, and the rest of the world didn't. It
    wasn't ideologies, it was the (I greatly simplify!) discovery of steel
    which enabled the populations to develop tools to make producing
    surplus food instead of relying on hunting gathering, (steel) and also
    use steel to produce weapons (guns), and since people started living in
    cities, due to the abundance of food, also produced deadly illnesses
    (germs) that helped conquerors easily subdue the native peoples.


    -Owen

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Fri Mar 24 14:13:34 2023
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 21:35:44 UTC+1:
    On 2023-03-24 19:16:07 +0000, Marc S said:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:
    On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:> >> > One should maybe ask
    oneself: Were it only the white men that did this> > stuff (slavery,
    colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a> > responsibility
    themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the> > Germans had a
    responsibility themselves for the shoah, and not just> > Hitler and the >> circumstances Germany was in after WW1?
    "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in a>
    much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer the question>
    posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you white people>
    developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we black>
    people had little cargo of our own?">> -Owen

    What do you mean in a much more broader and deeper sense... You never talked to me about this in depth (New Guinea being sth different than islamic countries btw), I also never wrote a book about the questions I asked which you maybe could have read, but I could I think and I am
    fairly certain, without even knowing Jared Diamond, that I could answer
    it in a much more truthful sense. I am not saying that the book of
    Diamond might not contain something truthful etc; but I am very certain
    he would lack a lot of stuff needed for this endeavour (Marx, Freud, Adorno etc).

    In short however: It's "ideologies" that shape the consciousness of the different people (now New Guinea as an island is isolated, so this contributes to customs being stale, as there is not much different information being received etc), and this in the end explains why some people didn't develop as much.
    Diamond goes back tens of thousands of years to figure out why western civilization ended up on top, and the rest of the world didn't. It
    wasn't ideologies, it was the (I greatly simplify!) discovery of steel
    which enabled the populations to develop tools to make producing
    surplus food instead of relying on hunting gathering, (steel) and also
    use steel to produce weapons (guns), and since people started living in cities, due to the abundance of food, also produced deadly illnesses
    (germs) that helped conquerors easily subdue the native peoples.

    I certainly view this differently. You may believe the nonsense of Diamond; but let me show you where he is wrong and is pulling things out of his ass (lol at pulitzer prize)

    The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess the living conditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago, lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass (among other moments where he surely does it)... so
    this does not help us much in explaining things...

    2cnd problem is that the western civilization was not always on top; in fact the arab civilization was on top around the islamic golden age (so obviously the arabs have already caught up whatever advance Diamond imagined the western civilization had
    10000s of years ago etc; obviously also other civilizations were ahead of the western civilization. What about the Egyptians? etc.... or the Jews who also had very adanced civilization, while the Germans lived in mud huds, not the Romans though.)



    -Owen

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Mar 24 14:18:17 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 22:13:37 UTC+1:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 21:35:44 UTC+1:
    On 2023-03-24 19:16:07 +0000, Marc S said:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:
    On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:> >> > One should maybe ask >> oneself: Were it only the white men that did this> > stuff (slavery,
    colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a> > responsibility >> themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the> > Germans had a >> responsibility themselves for the shoah, and not just> > Hitler and the >> circumstances Germany was in after WW1?
    "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in a> >> much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer the question>
    posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you white people>
    developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we black>
    people had little cargo of our own?">> -Owen

    What do you mean in a much more broader and deeper sense... You never talked to me about this in depth (New Guinea being sth different than islamic countries btw), I also never wrote a book about the questions I asked which you maybe could have read, but I could I think and I am fairly certain, without even knowing Jared Diamond, that I could answer it in a much more truthful sense. I am not saying that the book of Diamond might not contain something truthful etc; but I am very certain he would lack a lot of stuff needed for this endeavour (Marx, Freud, Adorno etc).

    In short however: It's "ideologies" that shape the consciousness of the different people (now New Guinea as an island is isolated, so this contributes to customs being stale, as there is not much different information being received etc), and this in the end explains why some people didn't develop as much.
    Diamond goes back tens of thousands of years to figure out why western civilization ended up on top, and the rest of the world didn't. It
    wasn't ideologies, it was the (I greatly simplify!) discovery of steel which enabled the populations to develop tools to make producing
    surplus food instead of relying on hunting gathering, (steel) and also
    use steel to produce weapons (guns), and since people started living in cities, due to the abundance of food, also produced deadly illnesses (germs) that helped conquerors easily subdue the native peoples.
    I certainly view this differently. You may believe the nonsense of Diamond; but let me show you where he is wrong and is pulling things out of his ass (lol at pulitzer prize)

    The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess the living conditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago, lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass (among other moments where he surely does it)...
    so this does not help us much in explaining things...

    2cnd problem is that the western civilization was not always on top; in fact the arab civilization was on top around the islamic golden age (so obviously the arabs have already caught up whatever advance Diamond imagined the western civilization had
    10000s of years ago etc; obviously also other civilizations were ahead of the western civilization. What about the Egyptians? etc.... or the Jews who also had very adanced civilization, while the Germans lived in mud huds, not the Romans though.)



    -Owen

    In the end you see... Owen... you must think more "critically"... and not just take everything Mr Diamond or whoever tells you for granted. I think what I am saying is very reasonable, and it shows very clearly how Diamond is wrong in his assumptions and
    how it is nonsensical to talk about things 100000 years ago, since other socieites already caught up.

    The real advance came through the industrial revolution, capitalism, enlightenment, science, human rights around 17th-18th century.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sat Mar 25 14:02:58 2023
    On 2023-03-24 21:13:34 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. Mrz 2023 um 21:35:44 UTC+1:
    On 2023-03-24 19:16:07 +0000, Marc S said:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. Mrz 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:> >>
    On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:> >> > One should maybe ask>
    oneself: Were it only the white men that did this> > stuff
    (slavery,> >> colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a> >
    responsibility> >> themselves for their backwardness; similar to how
    Germans had a> >> responsibility themselves for the shoah, and
    not just> > Hitler and the> >> circumstances Germany was in after WW1?>
    "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in
    much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer the
    question>> >> posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you
    white people>> >> developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea,
    but we black>> >> people had little cargo of our own?">> -Owen> >> >
    What do you mean in a much more broader and deeper sense... You never>
    talked to me about this in depth (New Guinea being sth different
    than> > islamic countries btw), I also never wrote a book about the
    questions I> > asked which you maybe could have read, but I could I
    think and I am> > fairly certain, without even knowing Jared Diamond,
    that I could answer> > it in a much more truthful sense. I am not
    saying that the book of> > Diamond might not contain something truthful
    etc; but I am very certain> > he would lack a lot of stuff needed for
    this endeavour (Marx, Freud,> > Adorno etc).> >> > In short however:
    It's "ideologies" that shape the consciousness of the> > different
    people (now New Guinea as an island is isolated, so this> > contributes
    to customs being stale, as there is not much different> > information
    being received etc), and this in the end explains why some> > people
    didn't develop as much.
    Diamond goes back tens of thousands of years to figure out why western>
    civilization ended up on top, and the rest of the world didn't. It>
    wasn't ideologies, it was the (I greatly simplify!) discovery of steel>
    which enabled the populations to develop tools to make producing>
    surplus food instead of relying on hunting gathering, (steel) and also>
    use steel to produce weapons (guns), and since people started living
    cities, due to the abundance of food, also produced deadly
    illnesses> (germs) that helped conquerors easily subdue the native
    peoples.
    I certainly view this differently. You may believe the nonsense of
    Diamond; but let me show you where he is wrong and is pulling things
    out of his ass (lol at pulitzer prize)

    I don't see how even you with all your great knowledge can so easily
    dimiss the scholarly work of Mr. Diamond, without even reading it.


    The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess the
    living conditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago,
    lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass (among
    other moments where he surely does it)... so this does not help us much
    in explaining things...

    What do you think archeaology is all about? We can determine which
    peoples were simply hunter gatherers, and which produced their food
    through agriculture. We know which peoples were able to create steel
    and guns and thus dominate other peoples which didn't or couldn't. We
    know which people were able to live in cities, where agriculture had to
    come from outside, cities where human contact was close and diseases
    rampant, thus granting herd immunity to their populace, and devastating
    the peoples they roamed to conquer.

    2cnd problem is that the western civilization was not always on top; in
    fact the arab civilization was on top around the islamic golden age (so obviously the arabs have already caught up whatever advance Diamond
    imagined the western civilization had 10000s of years ago etc;
    obviously also other civilizations were ahead of the western
    civilization. What about the Egyptians? etc.... or the Jews who also
    had very adanced civilization, while the Germans lived in mud huds, not
    the Romans though.)

    You're thinking too small. Too short periods of time.

    -Owen

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sat Mar 25 14:07:03 2023
    This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

    ----------------137998442157998698
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

    On 2023-03-24 21:18:17 +0000, Marc S said:

    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 24. Mrz 2023 um 22:13:37 UTC+1:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. Mrz 2023 um 21:35:44 UTC+1:> >
    On 2023-03-24 19:16:07 +0000, Marc S said:> > > Owen Hartnett schrieb
    am Freitag, 24. Mrz 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:> > >> On 2023-03-24
    13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:> >> > One should maybe ask> > >> oneself:
    Were it only the white men that did this> > stuff (slavery,> > >>
    colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a> > responsibility>
    themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the> > Germans
    had a> > >> responsibility themselves for the shoah, and not just> >
    Hitler and the> > >> circumstances Germany was in after WW1?> > >>
    "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in a>>
    much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer the
    question>> > >> posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you
    white people>> > >> developed so much cargo and brought it to New
    Guinea, but we black>> > >> people had little cargo of our own?">>
    -Owen> > >> > > What do you mean in a much more broader and deeper
    sense... You never> > > talked to me about this in depth (New Guinea
    being sth different than> > > islamic countries btw), I also never
    wrote a book about the questions I> > > asked which you maybe could
    have read, but I could I think and I am> > > fairly certain, without
    even knowing Jared Diamond, that I could answer> > > it in a much more
    truthful sense. I am not saying that the book of> > > Diamond might not
    contain something truthful etc; but I am very certain> > > he would
    lack a lot of stuff needed for this endeavour (Marx, Freud,> > > Adorno
    etc).> > >> > > In short however: It's "ideologies" that shape the
    consciousness of the> > > different people (now New Guinea as an island
    is isolated, so this> > > contributes to customs being stale, as there
    is not much different> > > information being received etc), and this in
    the end explains why some> > > people didn't develop as much.> >
    Diamond goes back tens of thousands of years to figure out why western>
    civilization ended up on top, and the rest of the world didn't. It> >
    wasn't ideologies, it was the (I greatly simplify!) discovery of steel>
    which enabled the populations to develop tools to make producing> >
    surplus food instead of relying on hunting gathering, (steel) and also>
    use steel to produce weapons (guns), and since people started living
    cities, due to the abundance of food, also produced deadly
    illnesses> > (germs) that helped conquerors easily subdue the native
    peoples.
    I certainly view this differently. You may believe the nonsense of
    Diamond; but let me show you where he is wrong and is pulling things
    out of his ass (lol at pulitzer prize)>> The 1st problem that arises is
    that we can't adequately assess the living conditions of people that
    lived tens of thousands of years ago, lots of guesses you know, lots of
    pulling things out of ones ass (among other moments where he surely
    does it)... so this does not help us much in explaining things...>>
    2cnd problem is that the western civilization was not always on top; in
    fact the arab civilization was on top around the islamic golden age (so
    obviously the arabs have already caught up whatever advance Diamond
    imagined the western civilization had 10000s of years ago etc;
    obviously also other civilizations were ahead of the western
    civilization. What about the Egyptians? etc.... or the Jews who also
    had very adanced civilization, while the Germans lived in mud huds, not
    the Romans though.)>> >> >> > -Owen

    In the end you see... Owen... you must think more "critically"... and
    not just take everything Mr Diamond or whoever tells you for granted. I
    think what I am saying is very reasonable, and it shows very clearly
    how Diamond is wrong in his assumptions and how it is nonsensical to
    talk about things 100000 years ago, since other socieites already
    caught up.

    I must admit I probably haven't conveyed Diamond's research as well as
    he does in his book. I recommend you read him, not me.

    The real advance came through the industrial revolution, capitalism, enlightenment, science, human rights around 17th-18th century.

    And all of the above came about because of guns, germs, and steel.
    Think bigger.

    -Owen
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    <p class="p1">On 2023-03-24 21:18:17 +0000, Marc S said:</p>
    <p class="p2"><br></p>
    <p class="p3">Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 24. Mrz 2023 um 22:13:37 UTC+1:</p> <p class="p4">Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. Mrz 2023 um 21:35:44 UTC+1:&gt; &gt; On 2023-03-24 19:16:07 +0000, Marc S said:&gt; &gt; &gt; Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. Mrz 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; On 2023-03-24 13:52:59
    +0000, Marc S said:&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; One should maybe ask&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; oneself: Were it only the white men that did this&gt; &gt; stuff (slavery,&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a&gt; &gt; responsibility&gt; &gt;
    &gt;&gt; themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the&gt; &gt; Germans had a&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; responsibility themselves for the shoah, and not just&gt; &gt; Hitler and the&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; circumstances Germany was in after WW1?&gt; &gt; &gt;&
    gt; "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in a&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer the question&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you white people&
    gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we black&gt;&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; people had little cargo of our own?"&gt;&gt; -Owen&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; What do you mean in a much more broader and deeper sense... You
    never&gt; &gt; &gt; talked to me about this in depth (New Guinea being sth different than&gt; &gt; &gt; islamic countries btw), I also never wrote a book about the questions I&gt; &gt; &gt; asked which you maybe could have read, but I could I think and I
    am&gt; &gt; &gt; fairly certain, without even knowing Jared Diamond, that I could answer&gt; &gt; &gt; it in a much more truthful sense. I am not saying that the book of&gt; &gt; &gt; Diamond might not contain something truthful etc; but I am very
    certain&gt; &gt; &gt; he would lack a lot of stuff needed for this endeavour (Marx, Freud,&gt; &gt; &gt; Adorno etc).&gt; &gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; &gt; In short however: It's "ideologies" that shape the consciousness of the&gt; &gt; &gt; different people (now
    New Guinea as an island is isolated, so this&gt; &gt; &gt; contributes to customs being stale, as there is not much different&gt; &gt; &gt; information being received etc), and this in the end explains why some&gt; &gt; &gt; people didn't develop as much.
    &gt; &gt; Diamond goes back tens of thousands of years to figure out why western&gt; &gt; civilization ended up on top, and the rest of the world didn't. It&gt; &gt; wasn't ideologies, it was the (I greatly simplify!) discovery of steel&gt; &gt; which
    enabled the populations to develop tools to make producing&gt; &gt; surplus food instead of relying on hunting gathering, (steel) and also&gt; &gt; use steel to produce weapons (guns), and since people started living in&gt; &gt; cities, due to the
    abundance of food, also produced deadly illnesses&gt; &gt; (germs) that helped conquerors easily subdue the native peoples.</p>
    <p class="p4">I certainly view this differently. You may believe the nonsense of Diamond; but let me show you where he is wrong and is pulling things out of his ass (lol at pulitzer prize)&gt;&gt; The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately
    assess the living conditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago, lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass (among other moments where he surely does it)... so this does not help us much in explaining things...&gt;&
    gt; 2cnd problem is that the western civilization was not always on top; in fact the arab civilization was on top around the islamic golden age (so obviously the arabs have already caught up whatever advance Diamond imagined the western civilization had
    10000s of years ago etc; obviously also other civilizations were ahead of the western civilization. What about the Egyptians? etc.... or the Jews who also had very adanced civilization, while the Germans lived in mud huds, not the Romans though.)&gt;&gt;
    &gt;&gt; &gt;&gt; &gt; -Owen</p>
    <p class="p5"><br></p>
    <p class="p6">In the end you see... Owen... you must think more "critically"... and not just take everything Mr Diamond or whoever tells you for granted. I think what I am saying is very reasonable, and it shows very clearly how Diamond is wrong in his
    assumptions and how it is nonsensical to talk about things 100000 years ago, since other socieites already caught up.</p>
    <p class="p7"><br></p>
    <p class="p8">I must admit I probably haven't conveyed Diamond's research as well as he does in his book.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>I recommend you read him, not me.</p>
    <p class="p9"><br></p>
    <p class="p6">The real advance came through the industrial revolution, capitalism, enlightenment, science, human rights around 17th-18th century.</p>
    <p class="p7"><br></p>
    <p class="p8">And all of the above came about because of guns, germs, and steel.<span class="Apple-converted-space"> </span>Think bigger.</p>
    <p class="p7"><br></p>
    <p class="p8">-Owen</p>
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    ----------------137998442157998698--

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  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 25 13:09:32 2023
    On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 9:32:52 PM UTC+11, HT wrote:
    Op donderdag 23 maart 2023 om 08:11:44 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:
    https://youtu.be/zrhhEJlw-e4

    All resident and visiting philosophers, thinkers,
    pundits, spectators, tinkerers, kibbitzers, are
    kindly invited to comment. I will stay out of
    the fray.

    TIA
    CIS is an Australian libertarian think-tank. It's a "classical libertarian" organization, according to Wiki. We may expect a typical Anglo-Saxon (colonialist, imperialist) view of the world.

    Henk

    But Henk, we Anglo-Saxons are platdutsch speakers, just like you! And I have fond memories of cataloguing platdeutsh books with names like "Onze Indie" or Gedenkboek van de Deli Maatschappij, from the days when you had a colonialist, imperialist view of
    the world as well. I did notice that by the mid 1930s there were more and more brown faces in the photographs of the management of those East India companies that formed the frontispieces of those Gedenkboeken, not long before the Japanese arrived ...

    Besides, a whole lot of people who did very well out of the Anglo-Saxon Empire were Celts. The Bengal jute industry was managed from Dundee. Cemetaries in Australian goldmining towns are full of gravestones of people with Welsh or Cornish names.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Sat Mar 25 14:09:50 2023
    On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 1:09:35 PM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    Cemetaries in Australian goldmining towns are full of
    gravestones of people with Welsh or Cornish names.


    And what does this prove ?!?

    dk

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 25 16:01:09 2023
    CIS is an Australian libertarian think-tank. It's a "classical libertarian" organization, according to Wiki. We may expect a typical Anglo-Saxon (colonialist, imperialist) view of the world.

    But Henk, we Anglo-Saxons are platdutsch speakers, just like you! And I have fond memories of cataloguing platdeutsh books with names like "Onze Indie" or Gedenkboek van de Deli Maatschappij, from the days when you had a colonialist, imperialist view
    of the world as well. I did notice that by the mid 1930s there were more and more brown faces in the photographs of the management of those East India companies that formed the frontispieces of those Gedenkboeken, not long before the Japanese arrived ...

    Indeed. The Netherlands had colonies. And we would have liked to be an Empire. The English were ahead of us - and all the other candidates. Moreover, they had a philosophical tradition that provided a perfect ideological basis.

    Besides, a whole lot of people who did very well out of the Anglo-Saxon Empire were Celts. The Bengal jute industry was managed from Dundee. Cemetaries in Australian goldmining towns are full of gravestones of people with Welsh or Cornish names.

    Your definition of Anglo-Saxon is remarkably narrow. Mine is perhaps too broad: Anglo-Saxon is someone who lives in a country with English as its main language - even if he is originally of Cuban origin.

    Henk

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to All on Sat Mar 25 21:43:06 2023
    On 3/25/2023 7:01 PM, HT wrote:

    CIS is an Australian libertarian think-tank. It's a "classical libertarian" organization, according to Wiki. We may expect a typical Anglo-Saxon (colonialist, imperialist) view of the world.

    But Henk, we Anglo-Saxons are platdutsch speakers, just like you! And I have fond memories of cataloguing platdeutsh books with names like "Onze Indie" or Gedenkboek van de Deli Maatschappij, from the days when you had a colonialist, imperialist view
    of the world as well. I did notice that by the mid 1930s there were more and more brown faces in the photographs of the management of those East India companies that formed the frontispieces of those Gedenkboeken, not long before the Japanese arrived ...

    Indeed. The Netherlands had colonies. And we would have liked to be an Empire. The English were ahead of us - and all the other candidates. Moreover, they had a philosophical tradition that provided a perfect ideological basis.

    Besides, a whole lot of people who did very well out of the Anglo-Saxon Empire were Celts. The Bengal jute industry was managed from Dundee. Cemetaries in Australian goldmining towns are full of gravestones of people with Welsh or Cornish names.

    Your definition of Anglo-Saxon is remarkably narrow. Mine is perhaps too broad: Anglo-Saxon is someone who lives in a country with English as its main language - even if he is originally of Cuban origin.

    Henk

    Henk, please explain what you mean by a "typical Anglo-Saxon (colonialist, imperialist) view of the world, particularly as it relates to the CIS' ideology or even policy proscriptions as expressed on their web site.

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  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sat Mar 25 23:23:27 2023
    On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 8:09:53 AM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 1:09:35 PM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    Cemetaries in Australian goldmining towns are full of
    gravestones of people with Welsh or Cornish names.

    And what does this prove ?!?

    dk

    Many Americans divide the UK into the Anglo-Saxon English (black hats) and the poor downtrodden Celts (white hats). My point is that the Celts benefited as much from the Empire as the Anglo Saxons did. A helluva lot of shipping was built in Glasgow and
    Belfast, as another example.

    Henk is using the expression "Anglo-Saxon" the way the French do. The theories of Milton Friedman et al. as enacted by President Reagan and Prime Minister Thatcher were often called "le systeme anglo-saxon" in the French press, who seemed to regard it
    with extreme suspicion. This didn't stop the rapid growth of 'franglais' in the French language, except of course in Quebec, where you still have to say 'coussin gonflable de securit'e" and not 'le airbag'.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Sun Mar 26 02:04:14 2023
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 25. März 2023 um 19:03:12 UTC+1:
    On 2023-03-24 21:13:34 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 21:35:44 UTC+1:
    On 2023-03-24 19:16:07 +0000, Marc S said:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:> >> >>> On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:> >> > One should maybe ask> >>> >> oneself: Were it only the white men that did this> > stuff
    (slavery,> >> colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a> > >>> responsibility> >> themselves for their backwardness; similar to how
    Germans had a> >> responsibility themselves for the shoah, and >>> not just> > Hitler and the> >> circumstances Germany was in after WW1?> >>> >> "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in >>> a>> >> much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer the
    question>> >> posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you
    white people>> >> developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, >>> but we black>> >> people had little cargo of our own?">> -Owen> >> >
    What do you mean in a much more broader and deeper sense... You never> >>> > talked to me about this in depth (New Guinea being sth different
    than> > islamic countries btw), I also never wrote a book about the
    questions I> > asked which you maybe could have read, but I could I
    think and I am> > fairly certain, without even knowing Jared Diamond, >>> that I could answer> > it in a much more truthful sense. I am not
    saying that the book of> > Diamond might not contain something truthful >>> etc; but I am very certain> > he would lack a lot of stuff needed for >>> this endeavour (Marx, Freud,> > Adorno etc).> >> > In short however:
    It's "ideologies" that shape the consciousness of the> > different
    people (now New Guinea as an island is isolated, so this> > contributes >>> to customs being stale, as there is not much different> > information >>> being received etc), and this in the end explains why some> > people
    didn't develop as much.
    Diamond goes back tens of thousands of years to figure out why western> >> civilization ended up on top, and the rest of the world didn't. It>
    wasn't ideologies, it was the (I greatly simplify!) discovery of steel> >> which enabled the populations to develop tools to make producing>
    surplus food instead of relying on hunting gathering, (steel) and also> >> use steel to produce weapons (guns), and since people started living
    cities, due to the abundance of food, also produced deadly
    illnesses> (germs) that helped conquerors easily subdue the native
    peoples.
    I certainly view this differently. You may believe the nonsense of Diamond; but let me show you where he is wrong and is pulling things
    out of his ass (lol at pulitzer prize)
    I don't see how even you with all your great knowledge can so easily
    dimiss the scholarly work of Mr. Diamond, without even reading it.

    I already explained how. It seems, you don't understand my arguments and are unable to think critically.

    Mr. Diamond might indeed "know" more than I do, but he seems to "understand" very little.

    Ever talked to an islamic scholar? He likely knows more about islam than you do, but he does not understand it... Maybe Owen, if you only read the Quran and the Sunnah you would convert to islam.

    Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy of wearing masks against covid? Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy of lockdowns and schools closures against covid?

    ...well it seems reality proved all these "scholars" wrong, as Sweden has shown without any doubt that they did better than most other countries that implentend draconian measures against covid.

    Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy on giving puberty-blockers and hormones to children and adults who falsely considers themselves to be born int he wrong body and are urged to "transition"? "Scholars" telling us that women can be men and men
    can be women... "scholars"...

    Did you know that the guy - António Egas Moniz - who invented the Lobotomy received a nobel prize for his "scholarly" work that fucked up Rosemary Kennedy forever?

    Now, learn to think critically about the "scholarly" works...

    Do you know how many Pulitzer-Prizes were given to works that actually sucked?...


    The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess the
    living conditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago, lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass (among other moments where he surely does it)... so this does not help us much
    in explaining things...
    What do you think archeaology is all about? We can determine which
    peoples were simply hunter gatherers, and which produced their food
    through agriculture. We know which peoples were able to create steel
    and guns and thus dominate other peoples which didn't or couldn't. We
    know which people were able to live in cities, where agriculture had to
    come from outside, cities where human contact was close and diseases rampant, thus granting herd immunity to their populace, and devastating
    the peoples they roamed to conquer.

    Look, I am sure Diamond put a lot of thought into it, but it seems you can't think critically. I am also aware what archaeology is about, just as I am aware about that archaeology does not give us all the answers needed to assess a society of 10000years
    ago... that's just the reality; sth you don't seem to have any awareness about btw.

    Think about where your godly figure Diamond might have erred, or do you believe that his work is 100% right in answering all the questions raised rather than just giving theories of which some may be more truthful than others.

    There were no guns 10000 years ago...


    2cnd problem is that the western civilization was not always on top; in fact the arab civilization was on top around the islamic golden age (so obviously the arabs have already caught up whatever advance Diamond imagined the western civilization had 10000s of years ago etc;
    obviously also other civilizations were ahead of the western
    civilization. What about the Egyptians? etc.... or the Jews who also
    had very adanced civilization, while the Germans lived in mud huds, not the Romans though.)
    You're thinking too small. Too short periods of time.

    No, Owen... you misunderstand the argument, and your way of thinking is utterly reductionist.

    My argument is: Whatever advance Diamond imagined we had 10000years ago, didn't matter anymore say in 12th century, because other people simply had caught up by then... or were even more advanced than we were - I have given examples. So the question is:
    why didn't these societies - say the slamic society durign the islamic golden age - which were more advanced than ours in mutliple ways (in math for example) failed to keep their edge... simple answer: ideology prevented them from progressing. complex
    answer will be more detailed...

    Funny how you just ignore all of this to make your point...

    Learn to understand what I write, instead of trying to teach me bullshit.

    You also seem to have no understanding of what ideologies are and how they affected you yourself.


    -Owen

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  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Sun Mar 26 02:22:15 2023
    On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 11:07:15 AM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-03-24 21:18:17 +0000, Marc S said:

    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 22:13:37 UTC+1:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 21:35:44 UTC+1:> > On 2023-03-24 19:16:07 +0000, Marc S said:> > > Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:> > >> On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:> >> > One should
    maybe ask> > >> oneself: Were it only the white men that did this> > stuff (slavery,> > >> colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a> > responsibility> > >> themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the> > Germans had a> > >>
    responsibility themselves for the shoah, and not just> > Hitler and the> > >> circumstances Germany was in after WW1?> > >> "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in a>> > >> much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer
    the question>> > >> posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you white people>> > >> developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we black>> > >> people had little cargo of our own?">> -Owen> > >> > > What do you mean in a much
    more broader and deeper sense... You never> > > talked to me about this in depth (New Guinea being sth different than> > > islamic countries btw), I also never wrote a book about the questions I> > > asked which you maybe could have read, but I could I
    think and I am> > > fairly certain, without even knowing Jared Diamond, that I could answer> > > it in a much more truthful sense. I am not saying that the book of> > > Diamond might not contain something truthful etc; but I am very certain> > > he would
    lack a lot of stuff needed for this endeavour (Marx, Freud,> > > Adorno etc).> > >> > > In short however: It's "ideologies" that shape the consciousness of the> > > different people (now New Guinea as an island is isolated, so this> > > contributes to
    customs being stale, as there is not much different> > > information being received etc), and this in the end explains why some> > > people didn't develop as much.> > Diamond goes back tens of thousands of years to figure out why western> > civilization
    ended up on top, and the rest of the world didn't. It> > wasn't ideologies, it was the (I greatly simplify!) discovery of steel> > which enabled the populations to develop tools to make producing> > surplus food instead of relying on hunting gathering, (
    steel) and also> > use steel to produce weapons (guns), and since people started living in> > cities, due to the abundance of food, also produced deadly illnesses> > (germs) that helped conquerors easily subdue the native peoples.
    I certainly view this differently. You may believe the nonsense of Diamond; but let me show you where he is wrong and is pulling things out of his ass (lol at pulitzer prize)>> The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess the living
    conditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago, lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass (among other moments where he surely does it)... so this does not help us much in explaining things...>> 2cnd problem is that
    the western civilization was not always on top; in fact the arab civilization was on top around the islamic golden age (so obviously the arabs have already caught up whatever advance Diamond imagined the western civilization had 10000s of years ago etc;
    obviously also other civilizations were ahead of the western civilization. What about the Egyptians? etc.... or the Jews who also had very adanced civilization, while the Germans lived in mud huds, not the Romans though.)>> >> >> > -Owen

    In the end you see... Owen... you must think more "critically"... and not just take everything Mr Diamond or whoever tells you for granted. I think what I am saying is very reasonable, and it shows very clearly how Diamond is wrong in his assumptions
    and how it is nonsensical to talk about things 100000 years ago, since other socieites already caught up.
    I must admit I probably haven't conveyed Diamond's research as well as he does in his book. I recommend you read him, not me.
    The real advance came through the industrial revolution, capitalism, enlightenment, science, human rights around 17th-18th century.
    And all of the above came about because of guns, germs, and steel. Think bigger.

    -Owen

    Not everyone agrees with Diamond:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns%2C_Germs%2C_and_Steel#Criticism

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Sun Mar 26 02:32:02 2023
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 25. März 2023 um 19:07:15 UTC+1:
    On 2023-03-24 21:18:17 +0000, Marc S said:

    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 22:13:37 UTC+1:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 21:35:44 UTC+1:> > On 2023-03-24 19:16:07 +0000, Marc S said:> > > Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:> > >> On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:> >> > One should
    maybe ask> > >> oneself: Were it only the white men that did this> > stuff (slavery,> > >> colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a> > responsibility> > >> themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the> > Germans had a> > >>
    responsibility themselves for the shoah, and not just> > Hitler and the> > >> circumstances Germany was in after WW1?> > >> "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in a>> > >> much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer
    the question>> > >> posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you white people>> > >> developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we black>> > >> people had little cargo of our own?">> -Owen> > >> > > What do you mean in a much
    more broader and deeper sense... You never> > > talked to me about this in depth (New Guinea being sth different than> > > islamic countries btw), I also never wrote a book about the questions I> > > asked which you maybe could have read, but I could I
    think and I am> > > fairly certain, without even knowing Jared Diamond, that I could answer> > > it in a much more truthful sense. I am not saying that the book of> > > Diamond might not contain something truthful etc; but I am very certain> > > he would
    lack a lot of stuff needed for this endeavour (Marx, Freud,> > > Adorno etc).> > >> > > In short however: It's "ideologies" that shape the consciousness of the> > > different people (now New Guinea as an island is isolated, so this> > > contributes to
    customs being stale, as there is not much different> > > information being received etc), and this in the end explains why some> > > people didn't develop as much.> > Diamond goes back tens of thousands of years to figure out why western> > civilization
    ended up on top, and the rest of the world didn't. It> > wasn't ideologies, it was the (I greatly simplify!) discovery of steel> > which enabled the populations to develop tools to make producing> > surplus food instead of relying on hunting gathering, (
    steel) and also> > use steel to produce weapons (guns), and since people started living in> > cities, due to the abundance of food, also produced deadly illnesses> > (germs) that helped conquerors easily subdue the native peoples.
    I certainly view this differently. You may believe the nonsense of Diamond; but let me show you where he is wrong and is pulling things out of his ass (lol at pulitzer prize)>> The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess the living
    conditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago, lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass (among other moments where he surely does it)... so this does not help us much in explaining things...>> 2cnd problem is that
    the western civilization was not always on top; in fact the arab civilization was on top around the islamic golden age (so obviously the arabs have already caught up whatever advance Diamond imagined the western civilization had 10000s of years ago etc;
    obviously also other civilizations were ahead of the western civilization. What about the Egyptians? etc.... or the Jews who also had very adanced civilization, while the Germans lived in mud huds, not the Romans though.)>> >> >> > -Owen

    In the end you see... Owen... you must think more "critically"... and not just take everything Mr Diamond or whoever tells you for granted. I think what I am saying is very reasonable, and it shows very clearly how Diamond is wrong in his assumptions
    and how it is nonsensical to talk about things 100000 years ago, since other socieites already caught up.
    I must admit I probably haven't conveyed Diamond's research as well as he does in his book. I recommend you read him, not me.
    The real advance came through the industrial revolution, capitalism, enlightenment, science, human rights around 17th-18th century.
    And all of the above came about because of guns, germs, and steel. Think bigger.

    -Owen

    The enlightenment did not happen because of "guns, germs and steel", but because of the Judeo-Christian society providing the basis for these ideas to develop.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Sun Mar 26 02:04:09 2023
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 25. März 2023 um 19:07:15 UTC+1:
    On 2023-03-24 21:18:17 +0000, Marc S said:

    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 22:13:37 UTC+1:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 21:35:44 UTC+1:> > On 2023-03-24 19:16:07 +0000, Marc S said:> > > Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:> > >> On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:> >> > One should
    maybe ask> > >> oneself: Were it only the white men that did this> > stuff (slavery,> > >> colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a> > responsibility> > >> themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the> > Germans had a> > >>
    responsibility themselves for the shoah, and not just> > Hitler and the> > >> circumstances Germany was in after WW1?> > >> "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in a>> > >> much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer
    the question>> > >> posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you white people>> > >> developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we black>> > >> people had little cargo of our own?">> -Owen> > >> > > What do you mean in a much
    more broader and deeper sense... You never> > > talked to me about this in depth (New Guinea being sth different than> > > islamic countries btw), I also never wrote a book about the questions I> > > asked which you maybe could have read, but I could I
    think and I am> > > fairly certain, without even knowing Jared Diamond, that I could answer> > > it in a much more truthful sense. I am not saying that the book of> > > Diamond might not contain something truthful etc; but I am very certain> > > he would
    lack a lot of stuff needed for this endeavour (Marx, Freud,> > > Adorno etc).> > >> > > In short however: It's "ideologies" that shape the consciousness of the> > > different people (now New Guinea as an island is isolated, so this> > > contributes to
    customs being stale, as there is not much different> > > information being received etc), and this in the end explains why some> > > people didn't develop as much.> > Diamond goes back tens of thousands of years to figure out why western> > civilization
    ended up on top, and the rest of the world didn't. It> > wasn't ideologies, it was the (I greatly simplify!) discovery of steel> > which enabled the populations to develop tools to make producing> > surplus food instead of relying on hunting gathering, (
    steel) and also> > use steel to produce weapons (guns), and since people started living in> > cities, due to the abundance of food, also produced deadly illnesses> > (germs) that helped conquerors easily subdue the native peoples.
    I certainly view this differently. You may believe the nonsense of Diamond; but let me show you where he is wrong and is pulling things out of his ass (lol at pulitzer prize)>> The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess the living
    conditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago, lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass (among other moments where he surely does it)... so this does not help us much in explaining things...>> 2cnd problem is that
    the western civilization was not always on top; in fact the arab civilization was on top around the islamic golden age (so obviously the arabs have already caught up whatever advance Diamond imagined the western civilization had 10000s of years ago etc;
    obviously also other civilizations were ahead of the western civilization. What about the Egyptians? etc.... or the Jews who also had very adanced civilization, while the Germans lived in mud huds, not the Romans though.)>> >> >> > -Owen

    In the end you see... Owen... you must think more "critically"... and not just take everything Mr Diamond or whoever tells you for granted. I think what I am saying is very reasonable, and it shows very clearly how Diamond is wrong in his assumptions
    and how it is nonsensical to talk about things 100000 years ago, since other socieites already caught up.
    I must admit I probably haven't conveyed Diamond's research as well as he does in his book. I recommend you read him, not me.
    The real advance came through the industrial revolution, capitalism, enlightenment, science, human rights around 17th-18th century.
    And all of the above came about because of guns, germs, and steel. Think bigger.

    -Owen

    Another thing to think about:

    The arabs conquered half the world, they colonized north africa and persia... and parts of spain etc.

    You seem to neglect this completely when talking about how the Western world conquered the rest of the world... it conflicts with the idea that the Western people were always "at the top"; no matter what happened 10000 years ago, the Arabs surely had
    caught up by then. Not sure if Diamond addresses this or not, but you sure didn't.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Sun Mar 26 02:30:01 2023
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 25. März 2023 um 19:07:15 UTC+1:
    On 2023-03-24 21:18:17 +0000, Marc S said:

    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 22:13:37 UTC+1:
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 21:35:44 UTC+1:> > On 2023-03-24 19:16:07 +0000, Marc S said:> > > Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:> > >> On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S said:> >> > One should
    maybe ask> > >> oneself: Were it only the white men that did this> > stuff (slavery,> > >> colonization etc)? Do islamic countries maybe have a> > responsibility> > >> themselves for their backwardness; similar to how the> > Germans had a> > >>
    responsibility themselves for the shoah, and not just> > Hitler and the> > >> circumstances Germany was in after WW1?> > >> "Guns, Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in a>> > >> much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer
    the question>> > >> posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you white people>> > >> developed so much cargo and brought it to New Guinea, but we black>> > >> people had little cargo of our own?">> -Owen> > >> > > What do you mean in a much
    more broader and deeper sense... You never> > > talked to me about this in depth (New Guinea being sth different than> > > islamic countries btw), I also never wrote a book about the questions I> > > asked which you maybe could have read, but I could I
    think and I am> > > fairly certain, without even knowing Jared Diamond, that I could answer> > > it in a much more truthful sense. I am not saying that the book of> > > Diamond might not contain something truthful etc; but I am very certain> > > he would
    lack a lot of stuff needed for this endeavour (Marx, Freud,> > > Adorno etc).> > >> > > In short however: It's "ideologies" that shape the consciousness of the> > > different people (now New Guinea as an island is isolated, so this> > > contributes to
    customs being stale, as there is not much different> > > information being received etc), and this in the end explains why some> > > people didn't develop as much.> > Diamond goes back tens of thousands of years to figure out why western> > civilization
    ended up on top, and the rest of the world didn't. It> > wasn't ideologies, it was the (I greatly simplify!) discovery of steel> > which enabled the populations to develop tools to make producing> > surplus food instead of relying on hunting gathering, (
    steel) and also> > use steel to produce weapons (guns), and since people started living in> > cities, due to the abundance of food, also produced deadly illnesses> > (germs) that helped conquerors easily subdue the native peoples.
    I certainly view this differently. You may believe the nonsense of Diamond; but let me show you where he is wrong and is pulling things out of his ass (lol at pulitzer prize)>> The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess the living
    conditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago, lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass (among other moments where he surely does it)... so this does not help us much in explaining things...>> 2cnd problem is that
    the western civilization was not always on top; in fact the arab civilization was on top around the islamic golden age (so obviously the arabs have already caught up whatever advance Diamond imagined the western civilization had 10000s of years ago etc;
    obviously also other civilizations were ahead of the western civilization. What about the Egyptians? etc.... or the Jews who also had very adanced civilization, while the Germans lived in mud huds, not the Romans though.)>> >> >> > -Owen

    In the end you see... Owen... you must think more "critically"... and not just take everything Mr Diamond or whoever tells you for granted. I think what I am saying is very reasonable, and it shows very clearly how Diamond is wrong in his assumptions
    and how it is nonsensical to talk about things 100000 years ago, since other socieites already caught up.
    I must admit I probably haven't conveyed Diamond's research as well as he does in his book. I recommend you read him, not me.

    I understand, that you likely have not conveyed Diamond's research, or rather his theories stemming from his research, as well as he does in his book. Just as you likely couldn't convey Moniz' research on Lobotomy if you read his works...

    I recommend you read him again, but this time "critically"... not just saying "yes" and "amen" to everything Mr Diamond said in his "scholarly" work.

    The real advance came through the industrial revolution, capitalism, enlightenment, science, human rights around 17th-18th century.
    And all of the above came about because of guns, germs, and steel. Think bigger.

    Again you are being reductionist, simplifying complex reality.

    Ask yourself: Why did the west have a scientific revolution and not islamic countries (even though islamic countries were ahead of us in science during the islamic golden age)? And they already knew about steel at that time... The muslim armies, the
    mongols etc all knew about steel...

    Why did the west have enlightement and not the asian or islamic countries? And why are there still countries in the 21st century that refuse to install a democracy? In Iran and Afghanistan that's not just because of some tyrannical rulers, but many
    people in Iran actually believe in the tyrannical rulers... Why are these people still living in the "dark ages"? Because of "steel" you say? Because 10000years ago the white men supposedly found steel before the muslims? What a load of bullshit.

    Christian ideology made it possible for the west to have an enlightenment, while the islamic ideology still suppresses ideas of enlightenment to even crystallize... How come buddhist japan, with an emperor during WW2 after being nuked twice managed to
    install a democracy? Why is it still not possible in Iran or Afghanistan?

    What happened to all the money the palestinians receveid since 1949 (billions of $)... why did they not manage to install a democracy, industrialize themselves etc? Instead they seemingly spent all their money on rockets targeted at israel. Because of "
    guns, germs and steel"?!? Because of "guns, germs and steel" the "Palestinians" are unable to socially progress? Because the white men supposedly found steel before the rest of the world? Or maybe it is because of ideology and how the islamic ideology
    affected them?


    -Owen

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 26 03:19:20 2023
    Op zondag 26 maart 2023 om 03:43:18 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:

    Henk, please explain what you mean by a "typical Anglo-Saxon (colonialist, imperialist) view of the world, particularly as it relates to the CIS' ideology or even policy proscriptions as expressed on their web site.

    "The purpose of our work is to help shape and influence a foreign policy that will promote the twin goals of a more secure Australia and an international order based on liberal values, rules of engagement and outcomes. CIS is taking the lead in
    identifying underlying current and future trends and issues; and introducing themes that will define and shape future policy. This includes contributions to debate and discussion on issues such as immigration and refugee policy and foreign aid. Our
    recent work has concentrated on the ever dynamic changes occurring in China and India and the lack of change in the Pacific region."

    The CIS is fully aware that it is embedded in the Asian sphere of influence but wants to help promote an international order based on liberal Western values. It is also fully aware that it cannot do this without the US and therefore welcomes its presence
    in the region.

    If that isn't a typical Anglo-Saxon (pace Andrew) view of the world, I don't know what is.

    Henk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 26 05:41:08 2023
    On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 3:19:23 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:

    The CIS is fully aware that it is embedded in the Asian sphere of
    influence but wants to help promote an international order based
    on liberal Western values. It is also fully aware that it cannot do this without the US and therefore welcomes its presence in the region.


    This isn't quite as simple as you present it. The root cause lies with
    the fact that East Asia used to be in the British sphere of influence
    (except for the slice dominated by Japan) while th UK still had an
    empire, then British influence evaporated as the UK lost its empire,
    leaving Australia sitting directly atop the faultline. Sooner or later Australia will have to choose between China and the United States.
    It is a hard choice, and it won't be nice.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 26 08:37:00 2023
    On 3/26/2023 6:19 AM, HT wrote:
    Op zondag 26 maart 2023 om 03:43:18 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:

    Henk, please explain what you mean by a "typical Anglo-Saxon (colonialist, imperialist) view of the world, particularly as it relates to the CIS' ideology or even policy proscriptions as expressed on their web site.

    "The purpose of our work is to help shape and influence a foreign policy that will promote the twin goals of a more secure Australia and an international order based on liberal values, rules of engagement and outcomes. CIS is taking the lead in
    identifying underlying current and future trends and issues; and introducing themes that will define and shape future policy. This includes contributions to debate and discussion on issues such as immigration and refugee policy and foreign aid. Our
    recent work has concentrated on the ever dynamic changes occurring in China and India and the lack of change in the Pacific region."

    The CIS is fully aware that it is embedded in the Asian sphere of influence but wants to help promote an international order based on liberal Western values. It is also fully aware that it cannot do this without the US and therefore welcomes its
    presence in the region.

    If that isn't a typical Anglo-Saxon (pace Andrew) view of the world, I don't know what is.

    Henk

    I see nothing colonialist or imperialist. I give up.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Mar 26 05:55:55 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Sonntag, 26. März 2023 um 14:41:11 UTC+2:
    On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 3:19:23 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:

    The CIS is fully aware that it is embedded in the Asian sphere of influence but wants to help promote an international order based
    on liberal Western values. It is also fully aware that it cannot do this without the US and therefore welcomes its presence in the region.

    This isn't quite as simple as you present it. The root cause lies with
    the fact that East Asia used to be in the British sphere of influence (except for the slice dominated by Japan) while th UK still had an
    empire, then British influence evaporated as the UK lost its empire,
    leaving Australia sitting directly atop the faultline. Sooner or later Australia will have to choose between China and the United States.
    It is a hard choice, and it won't be nice.

    the choice is quite easy... for anyone that hasn't lost his moral compass at least... opportunists might see this differently.


    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Sun Mar 26 07:23:44 2023
    Op zondag 26 maart 2023 om 14:41:11 UTC+2 schreef Dan Koren:
    On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 3:19:23 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:

    The CIS is fully aware that it is embedded in the Asian sphere of influence but wants to help promote an international order based
    on liberal Western values. It is also fully aware that it cannot do this without the US and therefore welcomes its presence in the region.

    This isn't quite as simple as you present it. The root cause lies with
    the fact that East Asia used to be in the British sphere of influence (except for the slice dominated by Japan) while th UK still had an
    empire, then British influence evaporated as the UK lost its empire,
    leaving Australia sitting directly atop the faultline. Sooner or later Australia will have to choose between China and the United States.
    It is a hard choice, and it won't be nice.

    dk

    Agreed. And an escape route via an international order based on liberal Western values as in the days of the British Empire (as the CIS is hoping for) is a passed station.

    Henk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Sun Mar 26 14:54:48 2023
    On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 2:34:14 PM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:41:11 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 3:19:23 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:

    The CIS is fully aware that it is embedded in the Asian sphere of influence but wants to help promote an international order based
    on liberal Western values. It is also fully aware that it cannot do this without the US and therefore welcomes its presence in the region.

    This isn't quite as simple as you present it. The root cause lies with
    the fact that East Asia used to be in the British sphere of influence (except for the slice dominated by Japan) while th UK still had an
    empire, then British influence evaporated as the UK lost its empire, leaving Australia sitting directly atop the faultline. Sooner or later Australia will have to choose between China and the United States.
    It is a hard choice, and it won't be nice.

    Australia made that choice in 1941 with the fall of Singapore.

    Sounds like Japan made the choice for you.

    We have been a major ally of the USA ever since. We had to endure an epidemic of student Maoism in the 1960s and 1970s by well-heeled undergraduates and some of their lecturers, but that's long gone,
    especially since the horrors of the Great Leap Forward and the
    Cultural Revolution became known.

    And what prevents it from coming back?

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Mar 26 14:34:11 2023
    On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:41:11 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 3:19:23 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:

    The CIS is fully aware that it is embedded in the Asian sphere of influence but wants to help promote an international order based
    on liberal Western values. It is also fully aware that it cannot do this without the US and therefore welcomes its presence in the region.

    This isn't quite as simple as you present it. The root cause lies with
    the fact that East Asia used to be in the British sphere of influence (except for the slice dominated by Japan) while th UK still had an
    empire, then British influence evaporated as the UK lost its empire,
    leaving Australia sitting directly atop the faultline. Sooner or later Australia will have to choose between China and the United States.
    It is a hard choice, and it won't be nice.

    dk

    Australia made that choice in 1941 with the fall of Singapore. We have been a major ally of the USA ever since. We had to endure an epidemic of student Maoism in the 1960s and 1970s by well-heeled undergraduates and some of their lecturers, but that's
    long gone, especially since the horrors of the Great Leap Forward and the Cultural Revolution became known.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Mar 26 15:02:18 2023
    On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 2:54:51 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 2:34:14 PM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:41:11 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 3:19:23 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:

    The CIS is fully aware that it is embedded in the Asian sphere of influence but wants to help promote an international order based
    on liberal Western values. It is also fully aware that it cannot do this
    without the US and therefore welcomes its presence in the region.

    This isn't quite as simple as you present it. The root cause lies with the fact that East Asia used to be in the British sphere of influence (except for the slice dominated by Japan) while th UK still had an empire, then British influence evaporated as the UK lost its empire, leaving Australia sitting directly atop the faultline. Sooner or later Australia will have to choose between China and the United States.
    It is a hard choice, and it won't be nice.

    Australia made that choice in 1941 with the fall of Singapore.
    Sounds like Japan made the choice for you.
    We have been a major ally of the USA ever since. We had to endure an epidemic of student Maoism in the 1960s and 1970s by well-heeled undergraduates and some of their lecturers, but that's long gone, especially since the horrors of the Great Leap Forward and the
    Cultural Revolution became known.

    And what prevents it from coming back?

    See this:

    https://www.amazon.com/You-Will-Be-Assimilated-Sino-form/dp/1642935409

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Mar 26 16:41:02 2023
    On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 3:02:21 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 2:54:51 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 2:34:14 PM UTC-7, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 11:41:11 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 3:19:23 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:

    The CIS is fully aware that it is embedded in the Asian sphere of influence but wants to help promote an international order based
    on liberal Western values. It is also fully aware that it cannot do this
    without the US and therefore welcomes its presence in the region.

    This isn't quite as simple as you present it. The root cause lies with the fact that East Asia used to be in the British sphere of influence (except for the slice dominated by Japan) while th UK still had an empire, then British influence evaporated as the UK lost its empire, leaving Australia sitting directly atop the faultline. Sooner or later Australia will have to choose between China and the United States.
    It is a hard choice, and it won't be nice.

    Australia made that choice in 1941 with the fall of Singapore.
    Sounds like Japan made the choice for you.
    We have been a major ally of the USA ever since. We had to endure an epidemic of student Maoism in the 1960s and 1970s by well-heeled undergraduates and some of their lecturers, but that's long gone, especially since the horrors of the Great Leap Forward and the
    Cultural Revolution became known.

    And what prevents it from coming back?
    See this:

    https://www.amazon.com/You-Will-Be-Assimilated-Sino-form/dp/1642935409

    dk

    - If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face--forever.

    George Orwell

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sun Mar 26 20:48:44 2023
    On 2023-03-26 08:04:14 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 25. Mrz 2023 um 19:03:12 UTC+1:
    On 2023-03-24 21:13:34 +0000, Marc S said:>> > Owen Hartnett schrieb am
    Freitag, 24. Mrz 2023 um 21:35:44 UTC+1:> >> On 2023-03-24 19:16:07
    +0000, Marc S said:> >>> Owen Hartnett schrieb am Freitag, 24. Mrz
    2023 um 19:42:25 UTC+1:> >>> >>> On 2023-03-24 13:52:59 +0000, Marc S
    said:> >> > One should maybe ask>> >>> >> oneself: Were it only the
    white men that did this> > stuff> >>> (slavery,> >> colonization etc)?
    Do islamic countries maybe have a> >> >>> responsibility> >> themselves
    for their backwardness; similar to how> >>> the> > Germans had a> >>
    responsibility themselves for the shoah, and> >>> not just> > Hitler
    and the> >> circumstances Germany was in after WW1?>> >>> >> "Guns,
    Germs and Steel" by Jared Diamond addresses these issues in> >>> a>> >>
    much more broader and deeper sense. It tries to answer the> >>>
    question>> >> posed by a New Guinean politician: "Why is it that you>
    white people>> >> developed so much cargo and brought it to New
    Guinea,> >>> but we black>> >> people had little cargo of our own?">>
    -Owen> >> >> >>> What do you mean in a much more broader and deeper
    sense... You never>> >>> > talked to me about this in depth (New Guinea
    being sth different> >>> than> > islamic countries btw), I also never
    wrote a book about the> >>> questions I> > asked which you maybe could
    have read, but I could I> >>> think and I am> > fairly certain, without
    even knowing Jared Diamond,> >>> that I could answer> > it in a much
    more truthful sense. I am not> >>> saying that the book of> > Diamond
    might not contain something truthful> >>> etc; but I am very certain> >
    he would lack a lot of stuff needed for> >>> this endeavour (Marx,
    Freud,> > Adorno etc).> >> > In short however:> >>> It's "ideologies"
    that shape the consciousness of the> > different> >>> people (now New
    Guinea as an island is isolated, so this> > contributes> >>> to customs
    being stale, as there is not much different> > information> >>> being
    received etc), and this in the end explains why some> > people> >>>
    didn't develop as much.> >> Diamond goes back tens of thousands of
    years to figure out why western>> >> civilization ended up on top, and
    the rest of the world didn't. It>> >> wasn't ideologies, it was the (I
    greatly simplify!) discovery of steel>> >> which enabled the
    populations to develop tools to make producing>> >> surplus food
    instead of relying on hunting gathering, (steel) and also>> >> use
    steel to produce weapons (guns), and since people started living> >>
    cities, due to the abundance of food, also produced deadly> >>
    illnesses> (germs) that helped conquerors easily subdue the native> >>
    peoples.> > I certainly view this differently. You may believe the
    nonsense of> > Diamond; but let me show you where he is wrong and is
    pulling things> > out of his ass (lol at pulitzer prize)
    I don't see how even you with all your great knowledge can so easily>
    dimiss the scholarly work of Mr. Diamond, without even reading it.

    I already explained how. It seems, you don't understand my arguments
    and are unable to think critically.

    Mr. Diamond might indeed "know" more than I do, but he seems to
    "understand" very little.

    Ever talked to an islamic scholar? He likely knows more about islam
    than you do, but he does not understand it... Maybe Owen, if you only
    read the Quran and the Sunnah you would convert to islam.

    Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy of wearing masks against covid?Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy of lockdowns and
    schools closures against covid?

    ...well it seems reality proved all these "scholars" wrong, as Sweden
    has shown without any doubt that they did better than most other
    countries that implentend draconian measures against covid.

    Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy on giving puberty-blockers
    and hormones to children and adults who falsely considers themselves to
    be born int he wrong body and are urged to "transition"? "Scholars"
    telling us that women can be men and men can be women... "scholars"...

    Did you know that the guy - Antnio Egas Moniz - who invented the
    Lobotomy received a nobel prize for his "scholarly" work that fucked up Rosemary Kennedy forever?

    Now, learn to think critically about the "scholarly" works...

    Do you know how many Pulitzer-Prizes were given to works that actually sucked?...


    The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess the> >
    living conditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago,>
    lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass
    (among> > other moments where he surely does it)... so this does not
    help us much> > in explaining things...
    What do you think archeaology is all about? We can determine which>
    peoples were simply hunter gatherers, and which produced their food>
    through agriculture. We know which peoples were able to create steel>
    and guns and thus dominate other peoples which didn't or couldn't. We>
    know which people were able to live in cities, where agriculture had
    come from outside, cities where human contact was close and
    diseases> rampant, thus granting herd immunity to their populace, and
    devastating> the peoples they roamed to conquer.

    Look, I am sure Diamond put a lot of thought into it, but it seems you
    can't think critically. I am also aware what archaeology is about, just
    as I am aware about that archaeology does not give us all the answers
    needed to assess a society of 10000years ago... that's just the
    reality; sth you don't seem to have any awareness about btw.

    Think about where your godly figure Diamond might have erred, or do you believe that his work is 100% right in answering all the questions
    raised rather than just giving theories of which some may be more
    truthful than others.

    There were no guns 10000 years ago...

    2cnd problem is that the western civilization was not always on top;
    fact the arab civilization was on top around the islamic golden
    age (so> > obviously the arabs have already caught up whatever advance
    Diamond> > imagined the western civilization had 10000s of years ago
    etc;> > obviously also other civilizations were ahead of the western> >
    civilization. What about the Egyptians? etc.... or the Jews who also> >
    had very adanced civilization, while the Germans lived in mud huds,
    the Romans though.)
    You're thinking too small. Too short periods of time.
    No, Owen... you misunderstand the argument, and your way of thinking is utterly reductionist.

    My argument is: Whatever advance Diamond imagined we had 10000years
    ago, didn't matter anymore say in 12th century, because other people
    simply had caught up by then... or were even more advanced than we were
    - I have given examples. So the question is: why didn't these societies
    - say the slamic society durign the islamic golden age - which were
    more advanced than ours in mutliple ways (in math for example) failed
    to keep their edge... simple answer: ideology prevented them from progressing. complex answer will be more detailed...

    Funny how you just ignore all of this to make your point...

    Learn to understand what I write, instead of trying to teach me bullshit.

    You also seem to have no understanding of what ideologies are and how
    they affected you yourself.


    -Owen

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Owen Hartnett@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sun Mar 26 21:08:59 2023
    On 2023-03-26 08:04:14 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 25. Mrz 2023 um 19:03:12 UTC+1:
    I don't see how even you with all your great knowledge can so easily>
    dimiss the scholarly work of Mr. Diamond, without even reading it.

    I already explained how. It seems, you don't understand my arguments
    and are unable to think critically.

    Mr. Diamond might indeed "know" more than I do, but he seems to
    "understand" very little.

    Ever talked to an islamic scholar? He likely knows more about islam
    than you do, but he does not understand it... Maybe Owen, if you only
    read the Quran and the Sunnah you would convert to islam.

    Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy of wearing masks against covid?Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy of lockdowns and
    schools closures against covid?

    ...well it seems reality proved all these "scholars" wrong, as Sweden
    has shown without any doubt that they did better than most other
    countries that implentend draconian measures against covid.

    Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy on giving puberty-blockers
    and hormones to children and adults who falsely considers themselves to
    be born int he wrong body and are urged to "transition"? "Scholars"
    telling us that women can be men and men can be women... "scholars"...

    Did you know that the guy - Antnio Egas Moniz - who invented the
    Lobotomy received a nobel prize for his "scholarly" work that fucked up Rosemary Kennedy forever?

    Now, learn to think critically about the "scholarly" works...

    Do you know how many Pulitzer-Prizes were given to works that actually sucked?...

    None of this is in anyway relevant to the discussion, which is why some societies advanced and dominated other societies, while others faltered
    and became dominated or colonialized.


    The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess the> >
    living conditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago,>
    lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass
    (among> > other moments where he surely does it)... so this does not
    help us much> > in explaining things...
    What do you think archeaology is all about? We can determine which>
    peoples were simply hunter gatherers, and which produced their food>
    through agriculture. We know which peoples were able to create steel>
    and guns and thus dominate other peoples which didn't or couldn't. We>
    know which people were able to live in cities, where agriculture had
    come from outside, cities where human contact was close and
    diseases> rampant, thus granting herd immunity to their populace, and
    devastating> the peoples they roamed to conquer.

    Look, I am sure Diamond put a lot of thought into it, but it seems you
    can't think critically. I am also aware what archaeology is about, just
    as I am aware about that archaeology does not give us all the answers
    needed to assess a society of 10000years ago... that's just the
    reality; sth you don't seem to have any awareness about btw.

    Think about where your godly figure Diamond might have erred, or do you believe that his work is 100% right in answering all the questions
    raised rather than just giving theories of which some may be more
    truthful than others.

    There were no guns 10000 years ago...

    I haven't said his work is 100% right. You couldn't say that about any historian. That's like saying the absolute best composer is Mozart.
    Why did Japan surrender in WWII? Some historians say fear of future
    atomic bombing, some say they were going to surrender anyway, and no
    bombs were needed, some say it was because Russia entered the war and
    invaded Manchuria, and the latest I've read insisted it was the carpet non-nuclear bombing of Japanese cities which ultimately turned the tide.



    2cnd problem is that the western civilization was not always on top;
    fact the arab civilization was on top around the islamic golden
    age (so> > obviously the arabs have already caught up whatever advance
    Diamond> > imagined the western civilization had 10000s of years ago
    etc;> > obviously also other civilizations were ahead of the western> >
    civilization. What about the Egyptians? etc.... or the Jews who also> >
    had very adanced civilization, while the Germans lived in mud huds,
    the Romans though.)
    You're thinking too small. Too short periods of time.
    No, Owen... you misunderstand the argument, and your way of thinking is utterly reductionist.

    My argument is: Whatever advance Diamond imagined we had 10000years
    ago, didn't matter anymore say in 12th century, because other people
    simply had caught up by then... or were even more advanced than we were
    - I have given examples. So the question is: why didn't these societies
    - say the slamic society durign the islamic golden age - which were
    more advanced than ours in mutliple ways (in math for example) failed
    to keep their edge... simple answer: ideology prevented them from progressing. complex answer will be more detailed...

    Funny how you just ignore all of this to make your point...

    Learn to understand what I write, instead of trying to teach me bullshit.

    You also seem to have no understanding of what ideologies are and how
    they affected you yourself.

    You seem to have an obsession with ideologies, and how you think they
    shaped the world.

    How about the 16th century instead of the 12th? Look at how easily
    Pizarro defeated the Peruvian natives in 1532, because they had steel
    swords and horses instead of the clubs and sticks the natives had, and
    had the training and experience of modern warfare.

    -Owen

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    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Mon Mar 27 00:19:11 2023
    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 03:09:11 UTC+2:
    On 2023-03-26 08:04:14 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 25. März 2023 um 19:03:12 UTC+1:
    I don't see how even you with all your great knowledge can so easily>
    dimiss the scholarly work of Mr. Diamond, without even reading it.

    I already explained how. It seems, you don't understand my arguments
    and are unable to think critically.

    Mr. Diamond might indeed "know" more than I do, but he seems to "understand" very little.

    Ever talked to an islamic scholar? He likely knows more about islam
    than you do, but he does not understand it... Maybe Owen, if you only
    read the Quran and the Sunnah you would convert to islam.

    Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy of wearing masks against covid?Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy of lockdowns and
    schools closures against covid?

    ...well it seems reality proved all these "scholars" wrong, as Sweden
    has shown without any doubt that they did better than most other
    countries that implentend draconian measures against covid.

    Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy on giving puberty-blockers
    and hormones to children and adults who falsely considers themselves to
    be born int he wrong body and are urged to "transition"? "Scholars" telling us that women can be men and men can be women... "scholars"...

    Did you know that the guy - António Egas Moniz - who invented the Lobotomy received a nobel prize for his "scholarly" work that fucked up Rosemary Kennedy forever?

    Now, learn to think critically about the "scholarly" works...

    Do you know how many Pulitzer-Prizes were given to works that actually sucked?...
    None of this is in anyway relevant to the discussion, which is why some societies advanced and dominated other societies, while others faltered
    and became dominated or colonialized.

    You never seem to get the point that I am making. What I was saying is directly related to what you said.

    Let me help you: You sarcastically questioned my knowledge, asking how I could dismiss the "scholarly" work of Diamond.

    So, instead of addressing the points I made in a reasonable way, you just point towards J. Diamond being an authority-figure by attributing the word "scholarly" to his work.

    Your sarcastic comment amounts to be an argumentum ad verecundiam (aka argumentum ab auctoritate). And that's what I was criticising.

    Furthermore, "Guns, Germs and Steel" is in no way a "real" science book; it's a popular science book.

    Now you hopefully understand why what I was saying was relevenant; it shows that your argument was very ill-considered.



    The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess the> > >>> living conditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago,> >>> > lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass
    (among> > other moments where he surely does it)... so this does not
    help us much> > in explaining things...
    What do you think archeaology is all about? We can determine which>
    peoples were simply hunter gatherers, and which produced their food>
    through agriculture. We know which peoples were able to create steel>
    and guns and thus dominate other peoples which didn't or couldn't. We>
    know which people were able to live in cities, where agriculture had
    come from outside, cities where human contact was close and
    diseases> rampant, thus granting herd immunity to their populace, and
    devastating> the peoples they roamed to conquer.

    Look, I am sure Diamond put a lot of thought into it, but it seems you can't think critically. I am also aware what archaeology is about, just
    as I am aware about that archaeology does not give us all the answers needed to assess a society of 10000years ago... that's just the
    reality; sth you don't seem to have any awareness about btw.

    Think about where your godly figure Diamond might have erred, or do you believe that his work is 100% right in answering all the questions
    raised rather than just giving theories of which some may be more
    truthful than others.

    There were no guns 10000 years ago...
    I haven't said his work is 100% right. You couldn't say that about any historian. That's like saying the absolute best composer is Mozart.
    Why did Japan surrender in WWII? Some historians say fear of future
    atomic bombing, some say they were going to surrender anyway, and no
    bombs were needed, some say it was because Russia entered the war and invaded Manchuria, and the latest I've read insisted it was the carpet non-nuclear bombing of Japanese cities which ultimately turned the tide.

    If his work is not 100% right, what do you think is wrong about it? I don't care what you think btw - this is a question you should ask yourself. You have shown me clearly that you are not only unable to think critically, but also unable to understand
    what I was saying in the first place. Remember what I told you about J. Diamond? He may "know" much, but he "understands" very little.

    And no... an aesthetic judgement like saying that Mozart is the best composer (which he is), is something completely different than questioning the theories of a historian. But for you ofc, since you can't think clearly and since you not able to "
    differentiate" it is the same... Whatever you want to believe Owen...

    I also did not ask why Japan did surrender... You clearly lack reading-comprehension. The question I was asking was why some nations (Japan for example, or Germany) which were undemocratic and at war with "the west", managed to install a democracy and
    why other nations (Iran, Afghanistan etc) did not manage it; instead these other nations seem to see democracy as something evil and bad.

    Let me give you the answer: Because of ideologies. Because people believe the wrong things. Japan installed a democracy because the way the society was constituted was open to ideas of a democracy; while islamic nations are very much opposed to democracy
    because of the islamic ideology.


    2cnd problem is that the western civilization was not always on top;
    fact the arab civilization was on top around the islamic golden >>> age (so> > obviously the arabs have already caught up whatever advance >>> Diamond> > imagined the western civilization had 10000s of years ago
    etc;> > obviously also other civilizations were ahead of the western> > >>> civilization. What about the Egyptians? etc.... or the Jews who also> > >>> had very adanced civilization, while the Germans lived in mud huds,
    the Romans though.)
    You're thinking too small. Too short periods of time.
    No, Owen... you misunderstand the argument, and your way of thinking is utterly reductionist.

    My argument is: Whatever advance Diamond imagined we had 10000years
    ago, didn't matter anymore say in 12th century, because other people simply had caught up by then... or were even more advanced than we were
    - I have given examples. So the question is: why didn't these societies
    - say the slamic society durign the islamic golden age - which were
    more advanced than ours in mutliple ways (in math for example) failed
    to keep their edge... simple answer: ideology prevented them from progressing. complex answer will be more detailed...

    Funny how you just ignore all of this to make your point...

    Learn to understand what I write, instead of trying to teach me bullshit.

    You also seem to have no understanding of what ideologies are and how
    they affected you yourself.
    You seem to have an obsession with ideologies, and how you think they
    shaped the world.

    How about the 16th century instead of the 12th? Look at how easily
    Pizarro defeated the Peruvian natives in 1532, because they had steel
    swords and horses instead of the clubs and sticks the natives had, and
    had the training and experience of modern warfare.

    ...look Owen, if you can't understand the points I am making it is useless discussing things further with you, which is why this will be my last message to you.

    We were not the only region in the 16th century that had steel, swords and horses... The arabs ahd steel, swords and horses during the islamci golden age... My point was - you god damn idiot - that we were not always on top... which is why it is
    compeltely unneccesary to go back 10k years to understand why we are on top today, as other nations caught up with whatever advantage J. Diamond imagined the west to have 10k years ago.

    Spain was colonized by arabs you moron... isn't Spain part of the west? So how come the west that was soooo experienced in "modern" warfare got colonized by arabs? Going by "Guns, Germs and Steel" (or what you are saying about it) this should not have
    happened...

    oh my god... this is just not worth my time.

    I wish you guys all the best!


    -Owen

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Mar 27 02:54:03 2023
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:19:14 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    an aesthetic judgement like saying that Mozart is the best
    composer (which he is), is something completely different

    Bach and Buxtehude are deeply upset. Wagner, Bruckner, and
    the Wagner Group are lining up to attack. And Tchaikovsky is
    rewriting 1812 replacing the cannon part with nuclear tipped
    Kinzhal missiles. If I were in your shoes I would abscond to
    Mars immediately.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Mar 27 03:07:06 2023
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:19:14 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    We were not the only region in the 16th century that
    had steel, swords and horses... The arabs and steel,
    swords and horses during the islamic golden age...

    And a brief interruption to respectfully remind the
    audience that gun powder was invented in China,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder

    and the first ironclad ships were built by Korea:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_ship

    The printing press was first invented in China, and
    the oldest extant printed book was printed in Korea:

    https://www.britannica.com/technology/printing-press

    The compass was first invented in China

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_compass

    Paper money as we know it (aka banknotes) also
    appeared first in China -- and noodles were also
    invented there.

    The pipe organ however was invented in Europe as
    an instrument capable of producing large amounts
    of hot air.

    dk

    PS. Why can Marc S only remember swords and horses?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Mar 27 10:52:01 2023
    May I respectfully suggest rinsing
    your ears with bleach 3 times a day?

    Take care.

    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 10:48:40 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 11:54:06 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:19:14 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    an aesthetic judgement like saying that Mozart is the best
    composer (which he is), is something completely different
    Bach and Buxtehude are deeply upset. Wagner, Bruckner, and
    the Wagner Group are lining up to attack. And Tchaikovsky is
    rewriting 1812 replacing the cannon part with nuclear tipped
    Kinzhal missiles. If I were in your shoes I would abscond to
    Mars immediately.

    dk
    I'd like to say that I have to revise my rankings once again; I was wrong about Haydn and Schumann:

    1) Mozart
    2) Beethoven
    3) Bach, Brahms, Haydn, Schubert, Schumann (not so sure how to rank them as of yet)

    These are definitely my favourite composers.

    Next in line would be Schoenberg and Berg; but you know... imo they just don't reach the heights of the people above. I mean, they can't anyway... the quality of their music is different, the idiom is different.

    All the other composers I heard don't really make sense to me... british, american, french, other germans or austrians, polish, italian, czech, russian, spanish, mexican, danish, finnish or whatever...

    Favourite composers wrt to 1), 2) and 3) as of yet:

    Beecham, Karajan, Klemperer, Maag, Mengelberg

    not so sure if I need them, but probably the best in the repertoire: Sawallisch in Schumann symphonies and Schubert 8.
    Still undecided about Bach conductors... as of yet I have only been disappointed... and not so sure about the conductor of Haydn symphonies either; except for Scherchen in Symphony 45 (for the final movement)

    Favourite pianists as of yet:

    Argerich, Gelber, Gieseking, Gould, Horowitz, Richter, Rubinstein, Schnabel, Sofronitsky, Volodos (some things might still change)

    Favourite violinists as of yet:

    Kreisler, Szeryng and maybe Heifetz (I think his KV 364 is quite nice, better than all the others I heard) and Grumiaux... (I have heard quite a few, but I was never too impressed with most of them unfortunately. I mean Hahn is very good in the
    Schoenberg violin concerto I think... and probably also Prokofiev 1 if i remember correctly; her Bach was very fast and very hmmm... maybe not my style in Bach)

    Favourite cellists as of yet:

    Only Fournier (I don't like the others I heard in Bach; have not listened to many cello concertos - I should definitely listen to Schumann's...)

    Favourite quartets:

    Undecided... need to listen more... I have not compared enough... generally I seem to like Juilliard

    Thanks for listening folks

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Mar 27 10:48:37 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 11:54:06 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:19:14 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    an aesthetic judgement like saying that Mozart is the best
    composer (which he is), is something completely different
    Bach and Buxtehude are deeply upset. Wagner, Bruckner, and
    the Wagner Group are lining up to attack. And Tchaikovsky is
    rewriting 1812 replacing the cannon part with nuclear tipped
    Kinzhal missiles. If I were in your shoes I would abscond to
    Mars immediately.

    dk

    I'd like to say that I have to revise my rankings once again; I was wrong about Haydn and Schumann:

    1) Mozart
    2) Beethoven
    3) Bach, Brahms, Haydn, Schubert, Schumann (not so sure how to rank them as of yet)

    These are definitely my favourite composers.

    Next in line would be Schoenberg and Berg; but you know... imo they just don't reach the heights of the people above. I mean, they can't anyway... the quality of their music is different, the idiom is different.

    All the other composers I heard don't really make sense to me... british, american, french, other germans or austrians, polish, italian, czech, russian, spanish, mexican, danish, finnish or whatever...

    Favourite composers wrt to 1), 2) and 3) as of yet:

    Beecham, Karajan, Klemperer, Maag, Mengelberg

    not so sure if I need them, but probably the best in the repertoire: Sawallisch in Schumann symphonies and Schubert 8.
    Still undecided about Bach conductors... as of yet I have only been disappointed... and not so sure about the conductor of Haydn symphonies either; except for Scherchen in Symphony 45 (for the final movement)

    Favourite pianists as of yet:

    Argerich, Gelber, Gieseking, Gould, Horowitz, Richter, Rubinstein, Schnabel, Sofronitsky, Volodos (some things might still change)

    Favourite violinists as of yet:

    Kreisler, Szeryng and maybe Heifetz (I think his KV 364 is quite nice, better than all the others I heard) and Grumiaux... (I have heard quite a few, but I was never too impressed with most of them unfortunately. I mean Hahn is very good in the
    Schoenberg violin concerto I think... and probably also Prokofiev 1 if i remember correctly; her Bach was very fast and very hmmm... maybe not my style in Bach)

    Favourite cellists as of yet:

    Only Fournier (I don't like the others I heard in Bach; have not listened to many cello concertos - I should definitely listen to Schumann's...)

    Favourite quartets:

    Undecided... need to listen more... I have not compared enough... generally I seem to like Juilliard

    Thanks for listening folks

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Mar 27 10:57:23 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 12:07:09 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:19:14 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    We were not the only region in the 16th century that
    had steel, swords and horses... The arabs and steel,
    swords and horses during the islamic golden age...

    And a brief interruption to respectfully remind the
    audience that gun powder was invented in China,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder


    Yes, I know.

    and the first ironclad ships were built by Korea:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_ship

    South Korea was also for quite a while the largest exporter of steel (until India took over, not sure of it's place now).


    The printing press was first invented in China, and
    the oldest extant printed book was printed in Korea:

    https://www.britannica.com/technology/printing-press

    The compass was first invented in China

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_compass

    Paper money as we know it (aka banknotes) also
    appeared first in China -- and noodles were also
    invented there.

    The pipe organ however was invented in Europe as
    an instrument capable of producing large amounts
    of hot air.

    dk

    PS. Why can Marc S only remember swords and horses?

    It is not that I only remember swords and horses, it is that i was only referring to what Owen was saying, and it seems that he only remembers swords and horses...

    And I did not mention the chinese or the koreans simply because I was giving other examples (arabs, mongols, jews) to show Owen that he is wrong... and that "the west" was not always the most advanced civilization... seems you can't follow my thoughts
    either...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Mar 27 11:00:41 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 19:52:05 UTC+2:
    May I respectfully suggest rinsing
    your ears with bleach 3 times a day?

    You can shove your suggestions up your ass.


    Take care.

    Best wishes mate!

    Judicial reform incoming!

    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 10:48:40 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 11:54:06 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:19:14 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    an aesthetic judgement like saying that Mozart is the best
    composer (which he is), is something completely different
    Bach and Buxtehude are deeply upset. Wagner, Bruckner, and
    the Wagner Group are lining up to attack. And Tchaikovsky is
    rewriting 1812 replacing the cannon part with nuclear tipped
    Kinzhal missiles. If I were in your shoes I would abscond to
    Mars immediately.

    dk
    I'd like to say that I have to revise my rankings once again; I was wrong about Haydn and Schumann:

    1) Mozart
    2) Beethoven
    3) Bach, Brahms, Haydn, Schubert, Schumann (not so sure how to rank them as of yet)

    These are definitely my favourite composers.

    Next in line would be Schoenberg and Berg; but you know... imo they just don't reach the heights of the people above. I mean, they can't anyway... the quality of their music is different, the idiom is different.

    All the other composers I heard don't really make sense to me... british, american, french, other germans or austrians, polish, italian, czech, russian, spanish, mexican, danish, finnish or whatever...

    Favourite composers wrt to 1), 2) and 3) as of yet:

    Beecham, Karajan, Klemperer, Maag, Mengelberg

    not so sure if I need them, but probably the best in the repertoire: Sawallisch in Schumann symphonies and Schubert 8.
    Still undecided about Bach conductors... as of yet I have only been disappointed... and not so sure about the conductor of Haydn symphonies either; except for Scherchen in Symphony 45 (for the final movement)

    Favourite pianists as of yet:

    Argerich, Gelber, Gieseking, Gould, Horowitz, Richter, Rubinstein, Schnabel, Sofronitsky, Volodos (some things might still change)

    Favourite violinists as of yet:

    Kreisler, Szeryng and maybe Heifetz (I think his KV 364 is quite nice, better than all the others I heard) and Grumiaux... (I have heard quite a few, but I was never too impressed with most of them unfortunately. I mean Hahn is very good in the
    Schoenberg violin concerto I think... and probably also Prokofiev 1 if i remember correctly; her Bach was very fast and very hmmm... maybe not my style in Bach)

    Favourite cellists as of yet:

    Only Fournier (I don't like the others I heard in Bach; have not listened to many cello concertos - I should definitely listen to Schumann's...)

    Favourite quartets:

    Undecided... need to listen more... I have not compared enough... generally I seem to like Juilliard

    Thanks for listening folks

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Mar 27 11:04:11 2023
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 10:57:26 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 12:07:09 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:19:14 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    We were not the only region in the 16th century that
    had steel, swords and horses... The arabs and steel,
    swords and horses during the islamic golden age...

    And a brief interruption to respectfully remind the
    audience that gun powder was invented in China,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder

    Yes, I know.
    and the first ironclad ships were built by Korea:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_ship
    South Korea was also for quite a while the largest
    exporter of steel (until India took over, not sure of it's place now).

    The printing press was first invented in China, and
    the oldest extant printed book was printed in Korea:

    https://www.britannica.com/technology/printing-press

    The compass was first invented in China

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_compass

    Paper money as we know it (aka banknotes) also
    appeared first in China -- and noodles were also
    invented there.

    The pipe organ however was invented in Europe as
    an instrument capable of producing large amounts
    of hot air.

    PS. Why can Marc S only remember swords and horses?

    It is not that I only remember swords and horses, it is
    that i was only referring to what Owen was saying, and
    it seems that he only remembers swords and horses...

    Please don't tell us you were trying to stay on topic.

    And I did not mention the chinese or the koreans simply
    because I was giving other examples (arabs, mongols,
    jews) to show Owen that he is wrong...

    Owen knows he is wrong -- no need to remind hm.

    and that "the west" was not always the most advanced
    civilization... seems you can't follow my thoughts either...

    The "West" is not a civilization. It is only a collection of
    technologies. Such as bagpipes, tanks and guillotines.

    Folks who think the "West" is a civilization ought to
    visit Angkor Wat and Borobudur -- then check on
    their calendars what was happening in the "West"
    around the same times they were built.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Mar 27 11:06:18 2023
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 11:00:44 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    Judicial reform incoming!


    Far more likely Netanyahu's
    political career will be over
    sooner than anyone thinks.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Mar 27 11:08:42 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 19:57:26 UTC+2:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 12:07:09 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:19:14 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    We were not the only region in the 16th century that
    had steel, swords and horses... The arabs and steel,
    swords and horses during the islamic golden age...

    And a brief interruption to respectfully remind the
    audience that gun powder was invented in China,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder

    Yes, I know.
    and the first ironclad ships were built by Korea:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_ship
    South Korea was also for quite a while the largest exporter of steel (until India took over, not sure of it's place now).

    The printing press was first invented in China, and
    the oldest extant printed book was printed in Korea:

    https://www.britannica.com/technology/printing-press

    The compass was first invented in China

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_compass

    Paper money as we know it (aka banknotes) also
    appeared first in China -- and noodles were also
    invented there.

    The pipe organ however was invented in Europe as
    an instrument capable of producing large amounts
    of hot air.

    dk

    PS. Why can Marc S only remember swords and horses?
    It is not that I only remember swords and horses, it is that i was only referring to what Owen was saying, and it seems that he only remembers swords and horses...

    And I did not mention the chinese or the koreans simply because I was giving other examples (arabs, mongols, jews) to show Owen that he is wrong... and that "the west" was not always the most advanced civilization... seems you can't follow my thoughts
    either...

    *wrt Mongols though I am not sure if they were more advanced than the west.

    Point being: "The west" was not always "on top"; at least not the whole time of human history. I think any reasonable person would understand this... it's fucking obvious and I feel a bit stupid that I have to mention it...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Mar 27 11:35:35 2023
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 11:08:45 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    *wrt Mongols though I am not sure if
    they were more advanced than the west.


    They were in some ways -- militarily. The
    Mongols were the first army to develop
    composite bows with longer range than
    wooden bows -- that were also shorter
    and could be fired while riding. This is
    what allowed them to conquer most
    of the known world at the time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_bow

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Empire

    In similar vein, Israel was the first to
    develop tank sights with automatic
    movement compensation allowing
    Israeli tanks to fire accurately while
    moving. This is what saved the day
    in 1973.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Mar 27 12:02:56 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 20:06:22 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 11:00:44 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    Judicial reform incoming!


    Far more likely Netanyahu's
    political career will be over
    sooner than anyone thinks.

    dk

    If that's what you want to believe.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Mar 27 12:00:24 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 19:57:26 UTC+2:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 12:07:09 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:19:14 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    We were not the only region in the 16th century that
    had steel, swords and horses... The arabs and steel,
    swords and horses during the islamic golden age...

    And a brief interruption to respectfully remind the
    audience that gun powder was invented in China,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder

    Yes, I know.
    and the first ironclad ships were built by Korea:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_ship
    South Korea was also for quite a while the largest exporter of steel (until India took over, not sure of it's place now).

    I was wrong, just checked it again. South Korea was never the largest exporter, but "always" one of the largest exporters. I remember being quite surprised since it is such a small country.


    The printing press was first invented in China, and
    the oldest extant printed book was printed in Korea:

    https://www.britannica.com/technology/printing-press

    The compass was first invented in China

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_compass

    Paper money as we know it (aka banknotes) also
    appeared first in China -- and noodles were also
    invented there.

    The pipe organ however was invented in Europe as
    an instrument capable of producing large amounts
    of hot air.

    dk

    PS. Why can Marc S only remember swords and horses?
    It is not that I only remember swords and horses, it is that i was only referring to what Owen was saying, and it seems that he only remembers swords and horses...

    And I did not mention the chinese or the koreans simply because I was giving other examples (arabs, mongols, jews) to show Owen that he is wrong... and that "the west" was not always the most advanced civilization... seems you can't follow my thoughts
    either...

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Mar 27 12:11:52 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 20:04:14 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 10:57:26 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 12:07:09 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:19:14 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    We were not the only region in the 16th century that
    had steel, swords and horses... The arabs and steel,
    swords and horses during the islamic golden age...

    And a brief interruption to respectfully remind the
    audience that gun powder was invented in China,

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder

    Yes, I know.
    and the first ironclad ships were built by Korea:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtle_ship
    South Korea was also for quite a while the largest
    exporter of steel (until India took over, not sure of it's place now).

    The printing press was first invented in China, and
    the oldest extant printed book was printed in Korea:

    https://www.britannica.com/technology/printing-press

    The compass was first invented in China

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_compass

    Paper money as we know it (aka banknotes) also
    appeared first in China -- and noodles were also
    invented there.

    The pipe organ however was invented in Europe as
    an instrument capable of producing large amounts
    of hot air.

    PS. Why can Marc S only remember swords and horses?

    It is not that I only remember swords and horses, it is
    that i was only referring to what Owen was saying, and
    it seems that he only remembers swords and horses...
    Please don't tell us you were trying to stay on topic.
    And I did not mention the chinese or the koreans simply
    because I was giving other examples (arabs, mongols,
    jews) to show Owen that he is wrong...
    Owen knows he is wrong -- no need to remind hm.
    and that "the west" was not always the most advanced
    civilization... seems you can't follow my thoughts either...
    The "West" is not a civilization. It is only a collection of
    technologies. Such as bagpipes, tanks and guillotines.

    Folks who think the "West" is a civilization ought to
    visit Angkor Wat and Borobudur -- then check on
    their calendars what was happening in the "West"
    around the same times they were built.

    My dad visited Angkor Wat, I haven't had the chance to yet.

    What you are implying wrt the west is ofc absolute bullshit. How about some constructive criticism and how about you open up to reality... shit ain't ever happening...

    I get it, you are a simple guy, asia = good, west = bad. Okay.


    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Mar 27 12:14:44 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 20:35:38 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 11:08:45 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    *wrt Mongols though I am not sure if
    they were more advanced than the west.

    They were in some ways -- militarily. The
    Mongols were the first army to develop
    composite bows with longer range than
    wooden bows -- that were also shorter
    and could be fired while riding. This is
    what allowed them to conquer most
    of the known world at the time.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_bow

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_Empire

    In similar vein, Israel was the first to
    develop tank sights with automatic
    movement compensation allowing
    Israeli tanks to fire accurately while
    moving. This is what saved the day
    in 1973.

    Very nice. But what now? What is with Judea and Samaria? What is with Sinai? What is with Gaza?

    Think about what the Mongols would do - hehe.


    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Mar 27 12:15:08 2023
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:02:59 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 20:06:22 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 11:00:44 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    Judicial reform incoming!


    Far more likely Netanyahu's
    political career will be over
    sooner than anyone thinks.

    If that's what you want to believe.

    I don't "believe" anything, which
    is why I used the word "likely".

    If you knew anything about the
    real Israeli political scene, as
    opposed to the garbage you
    cherry pick fromright wing
    tabloids, you would realize
    Bibi has passed the point of
    no return by pissing off the
    IAF. Most likely he will never
    be able to form and/or hold
    another cabinet. In Israel
    most people understand
    that what keeps the nation
    alive and relatively safe is
    the IAF -- not stuffed suit
    politicians. It is a matter
    of survival. Netanyahu
    has done more harm to
    the nation in a shorter
    time than anyone could
    have imagined. He will
    have to go.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Mar 27 12:21:05 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 21:15:11 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:02:59 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 20:06:22 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 11:00:44 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    Judicial reform incoming!


    Far more likely Netanyahu's
    political career will be over
    sooner than anyone thinks.

    If that's what you want to believe.
    I don't "believe" anything, which
    is why I used the word "likely".

    If you knew anything about the
    real Israeli political scene, as
    opposed to the garbage you
    cherry pick fromright wing
    tabloids, you would realize
    Bibi has passed the point of
    no return by pissing off the
    IAF. Most likely he will never
    be able to form and/or hold
    another cabinet. In Israel
    most people understand
    that what keeps the nation
    alive and relatively safe is
    the IAF -- not stuffed suit
    politicians. It is a matter
    of survival. Netanyahu
    has done more harm to
    the nation in a shorter
    time than anyone could
    have imagined. He will
    have to go.

    dk

    Thanks for writing this out, I thought it was funny.

    Judicial Reforms Incoming! Long Live Bibi!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Mar 27 13:03:19 2023
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:21:08 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 21:15:11 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:02:59 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 20:06:22 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 11:00:44 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    Judicial reform incoming!


    Far more likely Netanyahu's
    political career will be over
    sooner than anyone thinks.

    If that's what you want to believe.
    I don't "believe" anything, which
    is why I used the word "likely".

    If you knew anything about the
    real Israeli political scene, as
    opposed to the garbage you
    cherry pick fromright wing
    tabloids, you would realize
    Bibi has passed the point of
    no return by pissing off the
    IAF. Most likely he will never
    be able to form and/or hold
    another cabinet. In Israel
    most people understand
    that what keeps the nation
    alive and relatively safe is
    the IAF -- not stuffed suit
    politicians. It is a matter
    of survival. Netanyahu
    has done more harm to
    the nation in a shorter
    time than anyone could
    have imagined. He will
    have to go.

    Thanks for writing this out, I thought it was funny.

    Judicial Reforms Incoming! Long Live Bibi!

    Judicial "reforms" are NOT COMING !!!
    At least not at a level that would give
    Netanyahu a free pass and keep him
    out of jail. Lock him up !!!

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Bob Harper@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 27 14:15:15 2023
    On 3/26/23 3:19 AM, HT wrote:
    Op zondag 26 maart 2023 om 03:43:18 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:

    Henk, please explain what you mean by a "typical Anglo-Saxon (colonialist, imperialist) view of the world, particularly as it relates to the CIS' ideology or even policy proscriptions as expressed on their web site.

    "The purpose of our work is to help shape and influence a foreign policy that will promote the twin goals of a more secure Australia and an international order based on liberal values, rules of engagement and outcomes. CIS is taking the lead in
    identifying underlying current and future trends and issues; and introducing themes that will define and shape future policy. This includes contributions to debate and discussion on issues such as immigration and refugee policy and foreign aid. Our
    recent work has concentrated on the ever dynamic changes occurring in China and India and the lack of change in the Pacific region."

    The CIS is fully aware that it is embedded in the Asian sphere of influence but wants to help promote an international order based on liberal Western values. It is also fully aware that it cannot do this without the US and therefore welcomes its
    presence in the region.

    If that isn't a typical Anglo-Saxon (pace Andrew) view of the world, I don't know what is.

    Henk

    Maybe, just maybe, that's because liberal Western values are superior to
    all others in enabling human flourishing including prosperity and
    freedom. Have there been distortions? Of course--Original Sin is still around--but we recognize them as defects, not virtues.

    Bob Harper

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Mar 27 15:07:50 2023
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 1:03:22 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:21:08 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 21:15:11 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:02:59 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 20:06:22 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 11:00:44 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    Judicial reform incoming!


    Far more likely Netanyahu's
    political career will be over
    sooner than anyone thinks.

    If that's what you want to believe.
    I don't "believe" anything, which
    is why I used the word "likely".

    If you knew anything about the
    real Israeli political scene, as
    opposed to the garbage you
    cherry pick fromright wing
    tabloids, you would realize
    Bibi has passed the point of
    no return by pissing off the
    IAF. Most likely he will never
    be able to form and/or hold
    another cabinet. In Israel
    most people understand
    that what keeps the nation
    alive and relatively safe is
    the IAF -- not stuffed suit
    politicians. It is a matter
    of survival. Netanyahu
    has done more harm to
    the nation in a shorter
    time than anyone could
    have imagined. He will
    have to go.

    Thanks for writing this out, I thought it was funny.

    Judicial Reforms Incoming! Long Live Bibi!

    Judicial "reforms" are NOT COMING !!!
    At least not at a level that would give
    Netanyahu a free pass and keep him
    out of jail. Lock him up !!!

    Can you read this?

    https://www.axios.com/2023/03/27/netanyahu-israeli-judicial-overhaul-suspend-protests

    The only reason I am posting this link is
    for the entire group to see Netanyahu's
    Likud party holds only 32 out of 120
    parliament seats -- less than 27%.

    You claimed repeatedly Netanyahu
    "won" the last election with a clear
    "majority". This is very obviously
    not true, and you are obviously a
    deranged delusional liar shilling
    for his Fuehrer.

    The main reason, if not the only
    one, for the "judicial reform" is
    that Netanyahu has been under
    investigation for a lot of shady
    business dealings, and wants
    to change the legal system so
    he cannot be held accountable.

    It does not take any knowledge
    of German philosophy to see
    through this matter. It is grift
    as ugly as grift can possibly
    get.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Mar 27 18:30:24 2023
    On 3/27/2023 6:07 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 1:03:22 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:21:08 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 21:15:11 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:02:59 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 20:06:22 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 11:00:44 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    Judicial reform incoming!


    Far more likely Netanyahu's
    political career will be over
    sooner than anyone thinks.

    If that's what you want to believe.
    I don't "believe" anything, which
    is why I used the word "likely".

    If you knew anything about the
    real Israeli political scene, as
    opposed to the garbage you
    cherry pick fromright wing
    tabloids, you would realize
    Bibi has passed the point of
    no return by pissing off the
    IAF. Most likely he will never
    be able to form and/or hold
    another cabinet. In Israel
    most people understand
    that what keeps the nation
    alive and relatively safe is
    the IAF -- not stuffed suit
    politicians. It is a matter
    of survival. Netanyahu
    has done more harm to
    the nation in a shorter
    time than anyone could
    have imagined. He will
    have to go.

    Thanks for writing this out, I thought it was funny.

    Judicial Reforms Incoming! Long Live Bibi!

    Judicial "reforms" are NOT COMING !!!
    At least not at a level that would give
    Netanyahu a free pass and keep him
    out of jail. Lock him up !!!

    Can you read this?

    https://www.axios.com/2023/03/27/netanyahu-israeli-judicial-overhaul-suspend-protests

    The only reason I am posting this link is
    for the entire group to see Netanyahu's
    Likud party holds only 32 out of 120
    parliament seats -- less than 27%.

    You claimed repeatedly Netanyahu
    "won" the last election with a clear
    "majority". This is very obviously
    not true, and you are obviously a
    deranged delusional liar shilling
    for his Fuehrer.

    The main reason, if not the only
    one, for the "judicial reform" is
    that Netanyahu has been under
    investigation for a lot of shady
    business dealings, and wants
    to change the legal system so
    he cannot be held accountable.

    It does not take any knowledge
    of German philosophy to see
    through this matter. It is grift
    as ugly as grift can possibly
    get.

    dk

    The fact, assuming it is one, that Netanyau gets of the hook if the proposed legislation is enacted, just means he has a conflict of interest in the matter. It does not mean that some kind of judicial reform isn't needed. A system where the Court has
    virtual veto power over the other branches of government (without having a constitution as a basis for its decisions), and where the Court self-appoints it's justices is ridiculous. I don't know much about this situation, but am distraught at the level
    of animus among the Israeli people now. Now that the legislation as been put on hold, maybe there will be some sort of formal process in the Knesset, akin to a constitutional convention, to figure out what to do.


    Assuming the airport is open, we're going to Israel on Sunday for a couple of weeks.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 27 16:49:09 2023
    Op dinsdag 28 maart 2023 om 00:30:38 UTC+2 schreef Frank Berger:

    Assuming the airport is open, we're going to Israel on Sunday for a couple of weeks.

    Pleasant journey, and keep away from harm!

    Henkl

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 27 16:45:46 2023
    Op maandag 27 maart 2023 om 23:15:20 UTC+2 schreef Bob Harper:

    Maybe, just maybe, that's because liberal Western values are superior to
    all others in enabling human flourishing including prosperity and
    freedom. Have there been distortions? Of course--Original Sin is still around--but we recognize them as defects, not virtues.

    Bob, once we start believing that some values are superior to others, they become norms. Aesthetic and ethical values are not free floating, but are embedded in the way we live our lives.

    I wonder whether prosperity and freedom are values. They are embedded in what?

    Henk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 27 19:59:46 2023
    On 3/27/2023 7:45 PM, HT wrote:
    Op maandag 27 maart 2023 om 23:15:20 UTC+2 schreef Bob Harper:

    Maybe, just maybe, that's because liberal Western values are superior to
    all others in enabling human flourishing including prosperity and
    freedom. Have there been distortions? Of course--Original Sin is still
    around--but we recognize them as defects, not virtues.

    Bob, once we start believing that some values are superior to others, they become norms. Aesthetic and ethical values are not free floating, but are embedded in the way we live our lives.

    I wonder whether prosperity and freedom are values. They are embedded in what?

    Henk



    It is human nature to desire comfort (prosperity). It is not a value, notwithstanding what some people think. I don't think freedom is so much a value as something that makes one better off for having it. Those who don't think that it does might call
    it a value.

    People keep throwing around the term Western Values without saying what they mean. I don't have much of a clue. But if it includes representative government and someone else's values doesn't, I fail to see how we can not call one superior to the other.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to All on Mon Mar 27 18:24:13 2023
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 4:45:49 PM UTC-7, HT wrote:

    I wonder whether prosperity and freedom
    are values. They are embedded in what?


    Prosperity and freedom are BENEFITS.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Mon Mar 27 18:25:53 2023
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 5:00:00 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:

    People keep throwing around the term
    Western Values without saying what
    they mean. I don't have much of a clue.

    Of all people in this ng you should
    know better. Read the ticker tape(s).

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Mon Mar 27 18:29:50 2023
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 3:30:38 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:

    Assuming the airport is open, we're going
    to Israel on Sunday for a couple of weeks.

    Wishing you and your family a pleasant trip
    and the happiest most enjoyable Passover.

    If the airport is closed when you get there,
    some airlines would land in Amman and
    bus you over to Jerusalem or Tel-Aviv.

    Are you flying El-Al?

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Mar 27 22:33:12 2023
    On 3/27/2023 9:29 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 3:30:38 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:

    Assuming the airport is open, we're going
    to Israel on Sunday for a couple of weeks.

    Wishing you and your family a pleasant trip
    and the happiest most enjoyable Passover.

    If the airport is closed when you get there,
    some airlines would land in Amman and
    bus you over to Jerusalem or Tel-Aviv.

    Are you flying El-Al?

    dk

    Turkish Air through Istanbul. We've been to Israel around 18 times and have gone most ways you can. Aeroflot, Lufthsansa, Air Canada, Iberia, Swiss Air, British, El Al. More probably. No loyalties, whatever is cheapest at the time. Though I skipped
    Ethiopian Air one time when they were cheapest. Boycotting Aeroflot at the moment. Also wouldn't fly Air Italia based on stories I've heard including one I know the facts of intimately, as the disaster happened to my daughter's family.

    With Netanyahu withdrawing the reform proposal for now, maybe things will calm down a bit.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Tue Mar 28 00:36:17 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 09:19:25 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 7:33:25 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:

    Are you flying El-Al?

    Turkish Air through Istanbul.

    Excellent choice. I used to fly via Istanbul often when
    using my United mileage. An R/T ticket to Tel-Aviv was
    80k miles at the time, while only 60k miles were needed
    to Istanbul. I would use mileage from SF to Istanbul, then
    buy a cheap R/T from Istanbul to Tel-Aviv. That was before
    United opened direct flights between SF and Tel-Aviv.
    We've been to Israel around 18 times and have gone
    most ways you can. Aeroflot, Lufthansa, Air Canada,
    Iberia, Swiss Air, British, El Al.
    You live on the East Coast and have more choices than I
    have from SF. I tend to restrict myself to the Star Alliance
    since my primary mileage stash is on United: Lufthansa,
    Swiss, Air Canada and Turkish all fit the bill. I have also
    flown El Al, British and KLM sometimes. I would never
    fly Air France again, or Iberia, TAP, Alitalia or Aeroflot.

    I have one question: When was the last time you flew? And when you did, did you put on your scuba mask against covid?

    With Netanyahu withdrawing the reform proposal
    for now, maybe things will calm down a bit.
    Netanyahu's political career is probably over, though
    it may take some time for this to become obvious.

    No Israeli PM can possibly take on the HIstadrut,
    the IDF and the IAF all the same time. Lock him
    up and throw the key into the Sea of Galilee.

    What a load of bullshit. Go cry you fool.

    Judicial Reform Incoming! Long Live Bibi!


    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Tue Mar 28 00:19:22 2023
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 7:33:25 PM UTC-7, Frank Berger wrote:

    Are you flying El-Al?

    Turkish Air through Istanbul.

    Excellent choice. I used to fly via Istanbul often when
    using my United mileage. An R/T ticket to Tel-Aviv was
    80k miles at the time, while only 60k miles were needed
    to Istanbul. I would use mileage from SF to Istanbul, then
    buy a cheap R/T from Istanbul to Tel-Aviv. That was before
    United opened direct flights between SF and Tel-Aviv.

    We've been to Israel around 18 times and have gone
    most ways you can. Aeroflot, Lufthansa, Air Canada,
    Iberia, Swiss Air, British, El Al.

    You live on the East Coast and have more choices than I
    have from SF. I tend to restrict myself to the Star Alliance
    since my primary mileage stash is on United: Lufthansa,
    Swiss, Air Canada and Turkish all fit the bill. I have also
    flown El Al, British and KLM sometimes. I would never
    fly Air France again, or Iberia, TAP, Alitalia or Aeroflot.

    With Netanyahu withdrawing the reform proposal
    for now, maybe things will calm down a bit.

    Netanyahu's political career is probably over, though
    it may take some time for this to become obvious.

    No Israeli PM can possibly take on the HIstadrut,
    the IDF and the IAF all the same time. Lock him
    up and throw the key into the Sea of Galilee.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Tue Mar 28 00:33:19 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 00:07:54 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 1:03:22 PM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:21:08 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 21:15:11 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 12:02:59 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 27. März 2023 um 20:06:22 UTC+2:
    On Monday, March 27, 2023 at 11:00:44 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:

    Judicial reform incoming!


    Far more likely Netanyahu's
    political career will be over
    sooner than anyone thinks.

    If that's what you want to believe.
    I don't "believe" anything, which
    is why I used the word "likely".

    If you knew anything about the
    real Israeli political scene, as
    opposed to the garbage you
    cherry pick fromright wing
    tabloids, you would realize
    Bibi has passed the point of
    no return by pissing off the
    IAF. Most likely he will never
    be able to form and/or hold
    another cabinet. In Israel
    most people understand
    that what keeps the nation
    alive and relatively safe is
    the IAF -- not stuffed suit
    politicians. It is a matter
    of survival. Netanyahu
    has done more harm to
    the nation in a shorter
    time than anyone could
    have imagined. He will
    have to go.

    Thanks for writing this out, I thought it was funny.

    Judicial Reforms Incoming! Long Live Bibi!

    Judicial "reforms" are NOT COMING !!!
    At least not at a level that would give
    Netanyahu a free pass and keep him
    out of jail. Lock him up !!!
    Can you read this?

    It seems you are asking yourself...


    https://www.axios.com/2023/03/27/netanyahu-israeli-judicial-overhaul-suspend-protests

    Why would I read anything suggested by a brainwashed fool like you?


    The only reason I am posting this link is
    for the entire group to see Netanyahu's
    Likud party holds only 32 out of 120
    parliament seats -- less than 27%.

    You claimed repeatedly Netanyahu
    "won" the last election with a clear
    "majority". This is very obviously
    not true, and you are obviously a
    deranged delusional liar shilling
    for his Fuehrer.

    I never claimed that Netanyahu won the last elecion with a clear majority you retard. Show me the quote you god damn liar.

    I made my point clear before. You are just too retarded to understand what I'm saying.


    The main reason, if not the only
    one, for the "judicial reform" is
    that Netanyahu has been under
    investigation for a lot of shady
    business dealings, and wants
    to change the legal system so
    he cannot be held accountable.

    As Frank (who seems to be an old pervert (like you), judging by his youtube profile... I remember clicking on his profile on one of Hurwitz' videos long ago (he left a comment there) - out of curiosity; it was full of nubile asian pianists and also some
    women doing gym work... what do you peope think? that frank does sports?... hehehe...) explained, this is not the reason for the judicial reform.

    Let me tell you sth about yourself Dan: You have no purpose in life, no real friends, no nothing... not even a good taste in music. This is why you fall for everything the "liberal"/"leftist" press wants you to believe... Trump = fascist, Netanyahu =
    fascist, Covid = apocalypse etc. - it gives your sad life some meaning. How about you try to calm down, be less hysterical and try to assess reality as it really is:

    "Last month, I walked around Tel Aviv as hundreds of thousands of Israelis began to take to the streets, again for a righteous purpose: They’re opposed, they said, to the government’s proposed judicial reform, which they worry will weaken the checks
    and balances needed for democracy to survive. Sounds great! Until and unless, that is, you welcome in reality—at which point you have to reckon with the fact that even some of the protest’s leaders admit that the reform was drafted in response to the
    very real problem of judicial overreach; that some of the reform’s most maligned clauses are already in effect as legal precedents passed long before Bibi Netanyahu came to power; that, to date, no opposition leader had drafted anything resembling a
    viable and serious alternative; that all opposition leaders have thus far rejected the government’s offers to meet and negotiate a compromise; and that the most stirring battle cry you hear in these mass protests—Israel needs a constitution now!—
    has been calmly and seriously debated by scholars for, oh, 75 years with neither political pressures nor any viable resolution.

    None of this is to say that the folks on the march—my mother, by the way, among them—aren’t earnest, or patriotic, or truly concerned citizens. And none of this is to say that they haven’t legitimate claims; I’m a staunch supporter of the
    reforms, and even I would love to discuss the possibility of adding a few meaningful safeguards to the bills currently on the table. It’s to say, instead, that whatever else is going on in Israel, it’s not an emergency that just burst forth out of
    nowhere, suddenly flinging the country to the precipice of disaster unless action is immediately taken.

    [...]

    Something is definitely wrong here, but it’s not the Israeli judiciary, or pension plans, or teachers infringing on the human rights of students by restricting toilet use during lessons. If you take a sober look at these gatherings, you’ll see that
    they’re all about the same thing—which is not what any of them individually claim to be about. Instead, they’re being driven by a global drought in basic human connection, leading to too many people seeking a hit of pure purpose and belonging, and
    a fully automated network to activate it all."

    -- Liel Leibovitz for Tabletmag: Protest Porn https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/protest-porn


    It does not take any knowledge
    of German philosophy to see
    through this matter. It is grift
    as ugly as grift can possibly
    get.

    You are ofc right, that you don't need German philosophy to see through this matter; it's just that you are too brainwashed...

    What do you think of Scholz btw? I mean you remind me of him in every political aspect... what to expect from a self-hating Jew like you Dan?...


    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Mar 28 01:06:59 2023
    On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:36:19 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 09:19:25 UTC+2:

    You live on the East Coast and have more choices than I
    have from SF. I tend to restrict myself to the Star Alliance
    since my primary mileage stash is on United: Lufthansa,
    Swiss, Air Canada and Turkish all fit the bill. I have also
    flown El Al, British and KLM sometimes. I would never
    fly Air France again, or Iberia, TAP, Alitalia or Aeroflot.

    I have one question: When was the last time you flew?

    To Israel? 2018 on United Airlines. More recently to other
    places: London, Amsterdam, Barcelona, Munich, Istanbul,
    Singapore, Shanghai, Hong Kong.

    And when you did, did you put on your scuba mask against
    covid?

    I always wear a CBN grade mask when flying -- long before
    COVID. If you wonder why, think about what happens when
    a fire starts on board aircraft. I use this one:

    https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Trudsafe-Respirator-Connectors-Tightness/dp/B07D9GJRFG/

    I find it easier to put and take off than the 3M respirators.

    It is also lighter, feels more comfortable on my face, and
    can use standard 3M bayonet P100 filters, as well as RD40
    CBN filters, both at the same time. I also carry a matching
    PAPR pump in case things get really nasty, as well as an
    oxygen concentrator -- all with medical prescriptions as
    required by law and by the airlines I fly. I only fly a small
    set of airlines selected based on their safety records and
    on the traiining levels of their pilots: El Al, United, Qantas,
    Air Canada, British, KLM, Lufthansa, Swiss, Singapore,
    Turkish, ANA and JAL. I leave it as an exercise to the
    reader to figure out what these have in common.

    Cheers,

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Tue Mar 28 01:18:21 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 10:07:02 UTC+2:
    On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:36:19 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 09:19:25 UTC+2:

    You live on the East Coast and have more choices than I
    have from SF. I tend to restrict myself to the Star Alliance
    since my primary mileage stash is on United: Lufthansa,
    Swiss, Air Canada and Turkish all fit the bill. I have also
    flown El Al, British and KLM sometimes. I would never
    fly Air France again, or Iberia, TAP, Alitalia or Aeroflot.

    I have one question: When was the last time you flew?
    To Israel? 2018 on United Airlines. More recently to other
    places: London, Amsterdam, Barcelona, Munich, Istanbul,
    Singapore, Shanghai, Hong Kong.
    And when you did, did you put on your scuba mask against
    covid?
    I always wear a CBN grade mask when flying -- long before
    COVID. If you wonder why, think about what happens when
    a fire starts on board aircraft. I use this one:

    https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Trudsafe-Respirator-Connectors-Tightness/dp/B07D9GJRFG/


    Do you also have a parachute with you? I mean just in case.

    Do you ever leave your home? What do you wear when driving a car? I mean you could get hit by another car - statistically this probably occures more often than fires on plane...

    What happens if for whatever reason a fire starts in your car and your belt-mechanism is jammed; do you have a knife with you, to cut you loose?

    I find it easier to put and take off than the 3M respirators.

    It is also lighter, feels more comfortable on my face, and
    can use standard 3M bayonet P100 filters, as well as RD40
    CBN filters, both at the same time. I also carry a matching
    PAPR pump in case things get really nasty, as well as an
    oxygen concentrator -- all with medical prescriptions as
    required by law and by the airlines I fly. I only fly a small
    set of airlines selected based on their safety records and
    on the traiining levels of their pilots: El Al, United, Qantas,
    Air Canada, British, KLM, Lufthansa, Swiss, Singapore,
    Turkish, ANA and JAL. I leave it as an exercise to the
    reader to figure out what these have in common.

    I think I got better things to do...


    Cheers,

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Mar 28 02:05:23 2023
    On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 1:18:24 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 10:07:02 UTC+2:
    On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:36:19 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 09:19:25 UTC+2:

    I have one question: When was the last time you flew?

    To Israel? 2018 on United Airlines. More recently to other
    places: London, Amsterdam, Barcelona, Munich, Istanbul,
    Singapore, Shanghai, Hong Kong.

    And when you did, did you put on your scuba mask against
    covid?

    I always wear a CBN grade mask when flying -- long before
    COVID. If you wonder why, think about what happens when
    a fire starts on board aircraft. I use this one:

    https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Trudsafe-Respirator-Connectors-Tightness/dp/B07D9GJRFG/

    Do you also have a parachute with you? I mean just in case.

    No. It wouldn't be useful on a civilian airliner. No way
    to get out of the aircraft in most relevant situations.
    No ejection seats, and no pressurized space suits.

    Do you ever leave your home?

    Every day.

    What do you wear when driving a car?

    Jeans and a jacket. Sometimes driving gloves.

    I mean you could get hit by another car -

    My strategy for avoiding accidents is the same as
    the one used by the SR-71 Blackbird: fly higher and
    faster than all surrounding vehicles.

    statistically this probably occures more often than
    fires on plane...

    It does not matter to an individual how often or how
    seldom fires occur during flight -- the first one will
    most likely kill one. Inverse inference is not a valid
    statistical tool. The fact that some event only occurs
    very infrequently does not matter it won't occur in
    the next 3 seconds. How did you manage to pass
    Statistics (10)1?

    What happens if for whatever reason a fire starts
    in your car and your belt-mechanism is jammed;
    do you have a knife with you, to cut you loose?

    I do of course carry the standard emergency kit.

    And car fires do not commonly start in the cabin.
    They start in the engine compartment, or if a gas
    tank is punctured. Either way there is usually time
    to get out and run. It would be far more difficult
    at FL 370.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Tue Mar 28 02:19:18 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 11:05:26 UTC+2:
    On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 1:18:24 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 10:07:02 UTC+2:
    On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:36:19 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 09:19:25 UTC+2:

    I have one question: When was the last time you flew?

    To Israel? 2018 on United Airlines. More recently to other
    places: London, Amsterdam, Barcelona, Munich, Istanbul,
    Singapore, Shanghai, Hong Kong.

    And when you did, did you put on your scuba mask against
    covid?

    I always wear a CBN grade mask when flying -- long before
    COVID. If you wonder why, think about what happens when
    a fire starts on board aircraft. I use this one:

    https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Trudsafe-Respirator-Connectors-Tightness/dp/B07D9GJRFG/

    Do you also have a parachute with you? I mean just in case.
    No. It wouldn't be useful on a civilian airliner. No way
    to get out of the aircraft in most relevant situations.
    No ejection seats, and no pressurized space suits.

    You see... you say it yourself... "in most relevant situations", but there might be situations where they come in handy.

    Do you ever leave your home?
    Every day.

    Without your scuba mask?

    What do you wear when driving a car?
    Jeans and a jacket. Sometimes driving gloves.

    But this does not help you when you get hit by another car... also, what about your scuba mask?

    I mean you could get hit by another car -
    My strategy for avoiding accidents is the same as
    the one used by the SR-71 Blackbird: fly higher and
    faster than all surrounding vehicles.

    Okay, but you must think about the cases where your strategy might not work out, you know...

    Here a concrete example, so you don't have to think much which I know is something you ahve trouble with: "The Story of the SR-71 Blackbird that crashed while attempting to land at Kadena AB during extreme crosswinds caused by an oncoming typhoon"

    https://theaviationgeekclub.com/the-story-of-the-sr-71-blackbird-that-crashed-while-attempting-to-land-at-kadena-ab-during-extreme-crosswinds-caused-by-an-oncoming-typhoon/

    statistically this probably occures more often than
    fires on plane...
    It does not matter to an individual how often or how
    seldom fires occur during flight -- the first one will
    most likely kill one. Inverse inference is not a valid
    statistical tool. The fact that some event only occurs
    very infrequently does not matter it won't occur in
    the next 3 seconds. How did you manage to pass
    Statistics (10)1?

    Same reasoning can be applied to traffic accidents you fool, which is why according to yoru reasoning you should be wearing a helmet and some armour and what not......

    I doubt you have any idea about statistics... you are too stupid to understand math.

    What happens if for whatever reason a fire starts
    in your car and your belt-mechanism is jammed;
    do you have a knife with you, to cut you loose?
    I do of course carry the standard emergency kit.

    But is it in reach? Or do you have telepathic powers? Or is it just that you have a telepathetic mindset?


    And car fires do not commonly start in the cabin.
    They start in the engine compartment, or if a gas
    tank is punctured. Either way there is usually time
    to get out and run. It would be far more difficult
    at FL 370.

    There are many different scenarios in which a fire could start in the cabin (to quote Danstein: "Just because some event only occurs very infrequently does not [mean] it won't occure in the next 3 seconds")...

    I won't overwhelm you by giving some concrete examples; I understand you are retarded.

    How often does a fire start in the cabin in an airplane btw?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Mar 28 03:02:56 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 11:19:21 UTC+2:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 11:05:26 UTC+2:
    On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 1:18:24 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 10:07:02 UTC+2:
    On Tuesday, March 28, 2023 at 12:36:19 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 28. März 2023 um 09:19:25 UTC+2:

    I have one question: When was the last time you flew?

    To Israel? 2018 on United Airlines. More recently to other
    places: London, Amsterdam, Barcelona, Munich, Istanbul,
    Singapore, Shanghai, Hong Kong.

    And when you did, did you put on your scuba mask against
    covid?

    I always wear a CBN grade mask when flying -- long before
    COVID. If you wonder why, think about what happens when
    a fire starts on board aircraft. I use this one:

    https://www.amazon.com/Complete-Trudsafe-Respirator-Connectors-Tightness/dp/B07D9GJRFG/

    Do you also have a parachute with you? I mean just in case.
    No. It wouldn't be useful on a civilian airliner. No way
    to get out of the aircraft in most relevant situations.
    No ejection seats, and no pressurized space suits.
    You see... you say it yourself... "in most relevant situations", but there might be situations where they come in handy.
    Do you ever leave your home?
    Every day.
    Without your scuba mask?
    What do you wear when driving a car?
    Jeans and a jacket. Sometimes driving gloves.
    But this does not help you when you get hit by another car... also, what about your scuba mask?
    I mean you could get hit by another car -
    My strategy for avoiding accidents is the same as
    the one used by the SR-71 Blackbird: fly higher and
    faster than all surrounding vehicles.
    Okay, but you must think about the cases where your strategy might not work out, you know...

    Here a concrete example, so you don't have to think much which I know is something you ahve trouble with: "The Story of the SR-71 Blackbird that crashed while attempting to land at Kadena AB during extreme crosswinds caused by an oncoming typhoon"

    https://theaviationgeekclub.com/the-story-of-the-sr-71-blackbird-that-crashed-while-attempting-to-land-at-kadena-ab-during-extreme-crosswinds-caused-by-an-oncoming-typhoon/
    statistically this probably occures more often than
    fires on plane...
    It does not matter to an individual how often or how
    seldom fires occur during flight -- the first one will
    most likely kill one. Inverse inference is not a valid
    statistical tool. The fact that some event only occurs
    very infrequently does not matter it won't occur in
    the next 3 seconds. How did you manage to pass
    Statistics (10)1?
    Same reasoning can be applied to traffic accidents you fool, which is why according to yoru reasoning you should be wearing a helmet and some armour and what not......

    I doubt you have any idea about statistics... you are too stupid to understand math.
    What happens if for whatever reason a fire starts
    in your car and your belt-mechanism is jammed;
    do you have a knife with you, to cut you loose?
    I do of course carry the standard emergency kit.
    But is it in reach? Or do you have telepathic powers? Or is it just that you have a telepathetic mindset?

    *telekinetic powers... telepathy is sth else obviously. So telepathetic doesn't make sense.

    In any case you are pathetic, and it's fun making fun of you.


    And car fires do not commonly start in the cabin.
    They start in the engine compartment, or if a gas
    tank is punctured. Either way there is usually time
    to get out and run. It would be far more difficult
    at FL 370.
    There are many different scenarios in which a fire could start in the cabin (to quote Danstein: "Just because some event only occurs very infrequently does not [mean] it won't occure in the next 3 seconds")...

    I won't overwhelm you by giving some concrete examples; I understand you are retarded.

    How often does a fire start in the cabin in an airplane btw?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sat Apr 8 18:29:26 2023
    On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 12:11:44 AM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
    https://youtu.be/zrhhEJlw-e4

    All resident and visiting philosophers, thinkers,
    pundits, spectators, tinkerers, kibbitzers, are
    kindly invited to comment. I will stay out of
    the fray.

    TIA

    (2023 Y upload):

    "Western civilisation is crumbling before our very eyes: Neil Oliver | Alexandra Marshall"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sat Apr 8 18:27:37 2023
    On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 12:11:44 AM UTC-7, Dan Koren wrote:
    https://youtu.be/zrhhEJlw-e4

    All resident and visiting philosophers, thinkers,
    pundits, spectators, tinkerers, kibbitzers, are
    kindly invited to comment. I will stay out of
    the fray.

    TIA

    (2023 Y . upload):

    "Western civilisation is crumbling before our very eyes: Neil Oliver | Alexandra Marshall"

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From gggg gggg@21:1/5 to Owen Hartnett on Sat Apr 8 20:48:00 2023
    On Sunday, March 26, 2023 at 6:09:11 PM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:
    On 2023-03-26 08:04:14 +0000, Marc S said:

    Owen Hartnett schrieb am Samstag, 25. März 2023 um 19:03:12 UTC+1:
    I don't see how even you with all your great knowledge can so easily>
    dimiss the scholarly work of Mr. Diamond, without even reading it.

    I already explained how. It seems, you don't understand my arguments
    and are unable to think critically.

    Mr. Diamond might indeed "know" more than I do, but he seems to "understand" very little.

    Ever talked to an islamic scholar? He likely knows more about islam
    than you do, but he does not understand it... Maybe Owen, if you only
    read the Quran and the Sunnah you would convert to islam.

    Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy of wearing masks against covid?Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy of lockdowns and
    schools closures against covid?

    ...well it seems reality proved all these "scholars" wrong, as Sweden
    has shown without any doubt that they did better than most other
    countries that implentend draconian measures against covid.

    Ever read "scholarly" works on the efficacy on giving puberty-blockers
    and hormones to children and adults who falsely considers themselves to
    be born int he wrong body and are urged to "transition"? "Scholars" telling us that women can be men and men can be women... "scholars"...

    Did you know that the guy - António Egas Moniz - who invented the Lobotomy received a nobel prize for his "scholarly" work that fucked up Rosemary Kennedy forever?

    Now, learn to think critically about the "scholarly" works...

    Do you know how many Pulitzer-Prizes were given to works that actually sucked?...
    None of this is in anyway relevant to the discussion, which is why some societies advanced and dominated other societies, while others faltered
    and became dominated or colonialized.


    The 1st problem that arises is that we can't adequately assess the> > >>> living conditions of people that lived tens of thousands of years ago,> >>> > lots of guesses you know, lots of pulling things out of ones ass
    (among> > other moments where he surely does it)... so this does not
    help us much> > in explaining things...
    What do you think archeaology is all about? We can determine which>
    peoples were simply hunter gatherers, and which produced their food>
    through agriculture. We know which peoples were able to create steel>
    and guns and thus dominate other peoples which didn't or couldn't. We>
    know which people were able to live in cities, where agriculture had
    come from outside, cities where human contact was close and
    diseases> rampant, thus granting herd immunity to their populace, and
    devastating> the peoples they roamed to conquer.

    Look, I am sure Diamond put a lot of thought into it, but it seems you can't think critically. I am also aware what archaeology is about, just
    as I am aware about that archaeology does not give us all the answers needed to assess a society of 10000years ago... that's just the
    reality; sth you don't seem to have any awareness about btw.

    Think about where your godly figure Diamond might have erred, or do you believe that his work is 100% right in answering all the questions
    raised rather than just giving theories of which some may be more
    truthful than others.

    There were no guns 10000 years ago...
    I haven't said his work is 100% right. You couldn't say that about any historian. That's like saying the absolute best composer is Mozart.
    Why did Japan surrender in WWII? Some historians say fear of future
    atomic bombing, some say they were going to surrender anyway, and no
    bombs were needed, some say it was because Russia entered the war and invaded Manchuria, and the latest I've read insisted it was the carpet non-nuclear bombing of Japanese cities which ultimately turned the tide.

    2cnd problem is that the western civilization was not always on top;
    fact the arab civilization was on top around the islamic golden >>> age (so> > obviously the arabs have already caught up whatever advance >>> Diamond> > imagined the western civilization had 10000s of years ago
    etc;> > obviously also other civilizations were ahead of the western> > >>> civilization. What about the Egyptians? etc.... or the Jews who also> > >>> had very adanced civilization, while the Germans lived in mud huds,
    the Romans though.)
    You're thinking too small. Too short periods of time.
    No, Owen... you misunderstand the argument, and your way of thinking is utterly reductionist.

    My argument is: Whatever advance Diamond imagined we had 10000years
    ago, didn't matter anymore say in 12th century, because other people simply had caught up by then... or were even more advanced than we were
    - I have given examples. So the question is: why didn't these societies
    - say the slamic society durign the islamic golden age - which were
    more advanced than ours in mutliple ways (in math for example) failed
    to keep their edge... simple answer: ideology prevented them from progressing. complex answer will be more detailed...

    Funny how you just ignore all of this to make your point...

    Learn to understand what I write, instead of trying to teach me bullshit.

    You also seem to have no understanding of what ideologies are and how
    they affected you yourself.
    You seem to have an obsession with ideologies, and how you think they
    shaped the world.

    How about the 16th century instead of the 12th? Look at how easily
    Pizarro defeated the Peruvian natives in 1532, because they had steel
    swords and horses instead of the clubs and sticks the natives had, and
    had the training and experience of modern warfare.

    -Owen

    https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/soc.history.medieval/c/jcc3DnqaZ1g/m/BZyEs0Z3FQAJ

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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