https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sNeOJOL9eU
dk
On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:21:36 AM UTC, Dan Koren wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sNeOJOL9eU
dk
I quite enjoyed it. But there's something about her music making which brushes me up the wrong way. It's somehow slightly too heavy, too perfumed, not really impish enough. The only other thing I've heard from her was Shostakovich op 34 preludes, andat the time I reacted the same way -- worth a listen but I won't go back.
On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:21:36 AM UTC, Dan Koren wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sNeOJOL9eU
dk
I quite enjoyed it. But there's something about her music making which brushes me up the wrong way. It's somehow slightly too heavy, too perfumed, not really impish enough. The only other thing I've heard from her was Shostakovich op 34 preludes, andat the time I reacted the same way -- worth a listen but I won't go back.
On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 4:12:48 PM UTC, Mandryka wrote:
On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:21:36 AM UTC, Dan Koren wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sNeOJOL9eU
dk
at the time I reacted the same way -- worth a listen but I won't go back.I quite enjoyed it. But there's something about her music making which brushes me up the wrong way. It's somehow slightly too heavy, too perfumed, not really impish enough. The only other thing I've heard from her was Shostakovich op 34 preludes, and
I haven't listened to the Bach concerto you posted, by the way, I'm just not interested in baroque concertos much at the moment.
On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:21:36 AM UTC, Dan Koren wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sNeOJOL9eU
dk
I quite enjoyed it. But there's something about her music making which brushes me up the wrong way. It's somehow slightly too heavy, too perfumed, not really impish enough. The only other thing I've heard from her was Shostakovich op 34 preludes, andat the time I reacted the same way -- worth a listen but I won't go back.
On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 11:21:36 AM UTC, Dan Koren wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sNeOJOL9eU
I quite enjoyed it. But there's something about her music making
which brushes me up the wrong way. It's somehow slightly too
heavy, too perfumed, not really impish enough. The only other
thing I've heard from her was Shostakovich op 34 preludes,
and at the time I reacted the same way -- worth a listen but
I won't go back.
Richter... hmmmm I was not too impressed with him here.
Maybe Radu Lupu (NDR-Sinfonieorchester and Dohnányi)? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuMCa-6gNJQ
On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 2:22:14 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Richter... hmmmm I was not too impressed with him here.Not his cup of tea.
Maybe Radu Lupu (NDR-Sinfonieorchester and Dohnányi)? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuMCa-6gNJQ
Try this one:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r9ex6rubyxyhso2/Mozart%20KV%20491.mp3?dl=0
dk
Dan Koren schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 03:47:56 UTC+1:once declared - there is a great recording of the Prokofiev PC 2 with him from some competition, but as I'm not interested in the piece I don't care).
On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 2:22:14 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
I had not listened to this one by Radu Lupu when I posted the link. Listened to the first movement today (and the last variation in the 3rd movement) - I was not impressed. Radu Lupu is just a bit dull imo... he always disappoints me. (Maybe - as youRichter... hmmmm I was not too impressed with him here.Not his cup of tea.
Maybe Radu Lupu (NDR-Sinfonieorchester and Dohnányi)? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuMCa-6gNJQ
about it. Screw Zacharias, Brendel, Lupu, Haskil, Kissin, Rubinstein, Richter - maybe I would rate Kempff and maybe even Buchbinder above or around the same as Osetinskaya and Lang Lang - to be really confident I would have to check again though.Try this one:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r9ex6rubyxyhso2/Mozart%20KV%20491.mp3?dl=0Just listened to the first movement and the last variation of the 3rd movement.
I did not know who this pianist was; I had a feeling it was Lang Lang (touch and because I sort of have a feeling for pianists you like) and it seems it was indeed him (just checked yt).
Very good, much better than the last one you uploaded with him I think (I am really not too sure though - maybe my taste changed; the other one seemed more innocent and playful maybe, not as dark and serious).
But I think... Gould and Gieseking are just way better - next up is Schnabel, then probably Bashkirov and then maybe Osetinskaya and Lang Lang. The others are mostly very dull... and even Osetinskaya and Lang Lang don't really do it for me thinking
dk
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 11:12:55 UTC+1:once declared - there is a great recording of the Prokofiev PC 2 with him from some competition, but as I'm not interested in the piece I don't care).
Dan Koren schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 03:47:56 UTC+1:
On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 2:22:14 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
I had not listened to this one by Radu Lupu when I posted the link. Listened to the first movement today (and the last variation in the 3rd movement) - I was not impressed. Radu Lupu is just a bit dull imo... he always disappoints me. (Maybe - as youRichter... hmmmm I was not too impressed with him here.Not his cup of tea.
Maybe Radu Lupu (NDR-Sinfonieorchester and Dohnányi)? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuMCa-6gNJQ
about it. Screw Zacharias, Brendel, Lupu, Haskil, Kissin, Rubinstein, Richter - maybe I would rate Kempff and maybe even Buchbinder above or around the same as Osetinskaya and Lang Lang - to be really confident I would have to check again though.Try this one:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r9ex6rubyxyhso2/Mozart%20KV%20491.mp3?dl=0Just listened to the first movement and the last variation of the 3rd movement.
I did not know who this pianist was; I had a feeling it was Lang Lang (touch and because I sort of have a feeling for pianists you like) and it seems it was indeed him (just checked yt).
Very good, much better than the last one you uploaded with him I think (I am really not too sure though - maybe my taste changed; the other one seemed more innocent and playful maybe, not as dark and serious).
But I think... Gould and Gieseking are just way better - next up is Schnabel, then probably Bashkirov and then maybe Osetinskaya and Lang Lang. The others are mostly very dull... and even Osetinskaya and Lang Lang don't really do it for me thinking
dismissal of Lupu, Haskil, Zacharias, Brendel, Rubinstein and Richter though - Kempff and Buchbinder I listened to ages ago and thought they were quite good (Kempff being more lyrical if I remember correctly); maybe I would think differently today (IMaybe I am wrong about it being Lang Lang... maybe I should have compared directly, instead of just listening to a snippet of it and thinking it is Lang Lang. But I got other things to do as well.dk
In any case... I think Gould and Gieseking are the best; after them there is sort of a gap, after which comes Schnabel, after him there is a gap as well, a bigger one, and this is where it becomes more difficult for me... I am very sure about my
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 10:34:03 AM UTC, Marc S wrote:you once declared - there is a great recording of the Prokofiev PC 2 with him from some competition, but as I'm not interested in the piece I don't care).
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 11:12:55 UTC+1:
Dan Koren schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 03:47:56 UTC+1:
On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 2:22:14 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
I had not listened to this one by Radu Lupu when I posted the link. Listened to the first movement today (and the last variation in the 3rd movement) - I was not impressed. Radu Lupu is just a bit dull imo... he always disappoints me. (Maybe - asRichter... hmmmm I was not too impressed with him here.Not his cup of tea.
Maybe Radu Lupu (NDR-Sinfonieorchester and Dohnányi)? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuMCa-6gNJQ
about it. Screw Zacharias, Brendel, Lupu, Haskil, Kissin, Rubinstein, Richter - maybe I would rate Kempff and maybe even Buchbinder above or around the same as Osetinskaya and Lang Lang - to be really confident I would have to check again though.Try this one:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r9ex6rubyxyhso2/Mozart%20KV%20491.mp3?dl=0Just listened to the first movement and the last variation of the 3rd movement.
I did not know who this pianist was; I had a feeling it was Lang Lang (touch and because I sort of have a feeling for pianists you like) and it seems it was indeed him (just checked yt).
Very good, much better than the last one you uploaded with him I think (I am really not too sure though - maybe my taste changed; the other one seemed more innocent and playful maybe, not as dark and serious).
But I think... Gould and Gieseking are just way better - next up is Schnabel, then probably Bashkirov and then maybe Osetinskaya and Lang Lang. The others are mostly very dull... and even Osetinskaya and Lang Lang don't really do it for me thinking
dismissal of Lupu, Haskil, Zacharias, Brendel, Rubinstein and Richter though - Kempff and Buchbinder I listened to ages ago and thought they were quite good (Kempff being more lyrical if I remember correctly); maybe I would think differently today (IMaybe I am wrong about it being Lang Lang... maybe I should have compared directly, instead of just listening to a snippet of it and thinking it is Lang Lang. But I got other things to do as well.dk
In any case... I think Gould and Gieseking are the best; after them there is sort of a gap, after which comes Schnabel, after him there is a gap as well, a bigger one, and this is where it becomes more difficult for me... I am very sure about my
What about Kempff with Maderna?
Or Casadesus and Eugéne Bigot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3o3JN2EwVY&ab_channel=gullivior
Or Casadesus and Eugéne Bigot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3o3JN2EwVY&ab_channel=gullivior
Or Casadesus and Eugéne Bigot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3o3JN2EwVY&ab_channel=gullivior
Or Anderszewski with Cambreling (I like the recording where he conducts it from the piano)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo8j-m0Ctn8&ab_channel=JAPAN1913
Op vrijdag 17 maart 2023 om 13:13:05 UTC+1 schreef Mandryka:
Or Anderszewski with Cambreling (I like the recording where he conducts it from the piano)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo8j-m0Ctn8&ab_channel=JAPAN1913
A great performance. Thanks.
Or Casadesus and Eugéne Bigot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3o3JN2EwVY&ab_channel=gullivior
Okay... I just listened to Buchbinder in KV 491 3rd movement again after ages... I remember that I was not really impressed back then (I only checked it out, it was never one of my faves), and the reason I mentioned him above is because I rememberedhim being not dull (like Brendel or Perahia, I think Zacharias and Curzon were also quite dull); well maybe it's not dull, but it pretty much sucks anyway... can't say it's better or worse than Perahia or Brendel, it just does not work for me, just like
My favourite is definitely Gould or Gieseking... leaning towards Gould. I should probably check out Solomon and maybe also relisten to Kempff and Richter. Not sure if Lang Lang or Osetinskaya are better than them (but if I remember correctly they areat least better than Brendel, Perahia, Zacharias, Curzon, Buchbinder, Haskil, Kissin etc - quite sure about this).
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 6:34:10 AM UTC-7, HT wrote:
Op vrijdag 17 maart 2023 om 13:13:05 UTC+1 schreef Mandryka:
Or Anderszewski with Cambreling (I like the recording where he conducts it from the piano)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo8j-m0Ctn8&ab_channel=JAPAN1913
A great performance. Thanks.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNmeVzu2W4Y&t=880s
Mandryka schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 13:14:10 UTC+1:
Or Casadesus and Eugéne Bigot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3o3JN2EwVY&ab_channel=gulliviorI'll check it out later.
The recordings of Casadesus and Szell were actually one of the first recordings of the Mozart PCs I listened to and liked. But I always thought Casadesus was a little bit uninteresting here and I'm also not too fond of Szell (here and elsewhere).
I remember comparing Ranki's KV 450 against Casadesus' and thought Ranki was much better.
Or Anderszewski with Cambreling (I like the recording where he conducts it from the piano)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo8j-m0Ctn8&ab_channel=JAPAN1913
Mandryka schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 13:13:05 UTC+1:
Or Anderszewski with Cambreling (I like the recording where he conducts it from the piano)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo8j-m0Ctn8&ab_channel=JAPAN1913The pianist is not good. Reminds me of Brendel.
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 20:30:41 UTC+1:more often.
Mandryka schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 13:13:05 UTC+1:
Or Anderszewski with Cambreling (I like the recording where he conducts it from the piano)
Maybe a little more action-packed than Brendel. But I don't know his tone really reminded me of Brendel's. But after listening to Brendel + Marriner in Mov 3 I was wrong. I guess there are some similarities, but not really. Brendel seems to be legatohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo8j-m0Ctn8&ab_channel=JAPAN1913The pianist is not good. Reminds me of Brendel.
Anyway... both I don't like, that's at least sth that makes them similar (in my eyes).
Or Casadesus and Eugéne Bigot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3o3JN2EwVY&ab_channel=gullivior
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 20:36:50 UTC+1:more often.
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 20:30:41 UTC+1:
Mandryka schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 13:13:05 UTC+1:
Or Anderszewski with Cambreling (I like the recording where he conducts it from the piano)
Maybe a little more action-packed than Brendel. But I don't know his tone really reminded me of Brendel's. But after listening to Brendel + Marriner in Mov 3 I was wrong. I guess there are some similarities, but not really. Brendel seems to be legatohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo8j-m0Ctn8&ab_channel=JAPAN1913The pianist is not good. Reminds me of Brendel.
Certainly Lang Lang seems more free than many of today's pianists as well, but sometimes his touch truly bugs me here; like there are parts for example where I would prefer legato and he makes staccato, and an ugly one - not beautiful like Gould. I haven'Anyway... both I don't like, that's at least sth that makes them similar (in my eyes).I don't know, most of "today's" pianists seem sort of restrained (say Brendel, Zacharias, Anderszweski). Gould does not, Gieseking does not, Schnabel does not, Bashkirov does not; it all seems more natural and free... not as strained and closed.
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 12:14:10 PM UTC, Mandryka wrote:
Or Casadesus and Eugéne Bigot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3o3JN2EwVY&ab_channel=gulliviorAnd there's Parahia
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETrXJ7wJ6eA&t=29s&ab_channel=MrPalika123
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 12:14:10 PM UTC, Mandryka wrote:
Or Casadesus and Eugéne Bigot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3o3JN2EwVY&ab_channel=gulliviorAnd Curzon and Giullini -- but I can't see it on youtube.
I think Richter and Muti is well worth keeping in touch with by the way -- it's clearly an original interpretation but when it can be satisfying to hear when you're in the mood.
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 12:14:10 PM UTC, Mandryka wrote:
Or Casadesus and Eugéne Bigot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3o3JN2EwVY&ab_channel=gulliviorAnd Curzon and Giullini -- but I can't see it on youtube.
I think Richter and Muti is well worth keeping in touch with by the way -- it's clearly an original interpretation but when it can be satisfying to hear when you're in the mood.
Mandryka schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 13:13:05 UTC+1:
Or Anderszewski with Cambreling (I like the recording where he conducts it from the piano)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo8j-m0Ctn8&ab_channel=JAPAN1913
The pianist is not good. Reminds me of Brendel.
Mandryka schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 13:15:20 UTC+1:
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 12:08:15 PM UTC, Mandryka wrote:
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 10:34:03 AM UTC, Marc S wrote:
What about Kempff with Maderna?
Forgot the Kempff / Maderna link, sorry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LpbkpZNDG4
He is as dull and cute as with Leitner (just listened to bits
of both) - Can anyone imagine Kempff as being impish?
the problem with Lang Lang which I forgot to
add also is: he has some weird "mannerisms"
(phrasing) which seem unnatural; but he
seems more free (than many/most others).
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 12:30:41 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Mandryka schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 13:13:05 UTC+1:
Or Anderszewski with Cambreling (I like the recording where he conducts it from the piano)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo8j-m0Ctn8&ab_channel=JAPAN1913
The pianist is not good. Reminds me of Brendel.Bingo! Anderszewski is competent, serious pianist.
No touch, no tone, no colour, no phrasing. Modern
intellectual sewing machine.
dk
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 1:08:19 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
the problem with Lang Lang which I forgot toThe Lang van Bang performance I posted is
add also is: he has some weird "mannerisms"
(phrasing) which seem unnatural; but he
seems more free (than many/most others).
very interesting in more than one way. It is a
rather intimate reading, very subtly phrased,
and superbly played. It avoids the Sturm und
Drang approach so many pianists take with
KV 491, while still maintaining an unbroken
emotional flow from start to finish. To my
mind this is how Santa Clara could have
played it had she really lived up to her
undeserved reputation.
dk
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 1:21:10 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Mandryka schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 13:15:20 UTC+1:
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 12:08:15 PM UTC, Mandryka wrote:
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 10:34:03 AM UTC, Marc S wrote:
What about Kempff with Maderna?
Forgot the Kempff / Maderna link, sorry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LpbkpZNDG4
He is as dull and cute as with Leitner (just listened to bitsYour ears seem to be functioning very well today!
of both) - Can anyone imagine Kempff as being impish?
Did you switch to Oolong? Audience, please note
how an unbiased, unprejudiced listener without
any axe to grind has immediately outed Kempff
as a fraud!
Well done!
dk
PS. It would be interesting to find out how many
folks in this group have actually heard Kempff
live. You can email me privately if you don't
want to be embarrassed, and I will tally the
votes (er, confessions!).
On Saturday, March 18, 2023 at 12:09:44 PM UTC, Marc S wrote:this performance (melancholy, sorrow, anger etc.).
Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 18. März 2023 um 03:06:11 UTC+1:
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 1:08:19 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Just listened to her playing the 3rd movement of KV 491 (with Markevitch) and I think I understand where you are coming from... yes.the problem with Lang Lang which I forgot toThe Lang van Bang performance I posted is
add also is: he has some weird "mannerisms"
(phrasing) which seem unnatural; but he
seems more free (than many/most others).
very interesting in more than one way. It is a
rather intimate reading, very subtly phrased,
and superbly played. It avoids the Sturm und
Drang approach so many pianists take with
KV 491, while still maintaining an unbroken
emotional flow from start to finish. To my
mind this is how Santa Clara could have
played it had she really lived up to her
undeserved reputation.
I also seem to agree with your assessment of it; but if I remember correctly this performance was more dark / serious (well it isn't really dark or serious is it) than the last one by Lang Lang that you uploaded. In any case I miss many things in
my favourites. Just remembered Richard Goode... I think he was also similar to Brendel...Lang Lang is interesting, but compared to Gould, Gieseking and Schnabel he is just trash; not worth listening to imo... I do not want to waste time thinking about if it was better than Brendel's or not; because in the end both are trash compared to
I may get the Stockholm performance out later.Lang Lang did a good first movement cadenza. The recording with Harnoncourt is not so successful IMO but there are others available which are.dk
Gould recorded it at least twice, once live in Sweden, and the studio recording which everyone knows. It's years since I heard either of them but I remember that he was imaginative in the later variations in the studio recording, to some effect in fact.
Goode is very variable. I heard him do a Diabelli Variations recently and I thought it was just glib. But before that I heard him do Debussy Preludes I and it was fabulous. I've never explored the studio recordings.
Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 18. März 2023 um 03:06:11 UTC+1:performance (melancholy, sorrow, anger etc.).
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 1:08:19 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Just listened to her playing the 3rd movement of KV 491 (with Markevitch) and I think I understand where you are coming from... yes.the problem with Lang Lang which I forgot toThe Lang van Bang performance I posted is
add also is: he has some weird "mannerisms"
(phrasing) which seem unnatural; but he
seems more free (than many/most others).
very interesting in more than one way. It is a
rather intimate reading, very subtly phrased,
and superbly played. It avoids the Sturm und
Drang approach so many pianists take with
KV 491, while still maintaining an unbroken
emotional flow from start to finish. To my
mind this is how Santa Clara could have
played it had she really lived up to her
undeserved reputation.
I also seem to agree with your assessment of it; but if I remember correctly this performance was more dark / serious (well it isn't really dark or serious is it) than the last one by Lang Lang that you uploaded. In any case I miss many things in this
Lang Lang is interesting, but compared to Gould, Gieseking and Schnabel he is just trash; not worth listening to imo... I do not want to waste time thinking about if it was better than Brendel's or not; because in the end both are trash compared to myfavourites. Just remembered Richard Goode... I think he was also similar to Brendel...
dk
Mandryka schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 13:15:20 UTC+1:as you once declared - there is a great recording of the Prokofiev PC 2 with him from some competition, but as I'm not interested in the piece I don't care).
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 12:08:15 PM UTC, Mandryka wrote:
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 10:34:03 AM UTC, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 11:12:55 UTC+1:
Dan Koren schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 03:47:56 UTC+1:
On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 2:22:14 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
I had not listened to this one by Radu Lupu when I posted the link. Listened to the first movement today (and the last variation in the 3rd movement) - I was not impressed. Radu Lupu is just a bit dull imo... he always disappoints me. (Maybe -Richter... hmmmm I was not too impressed with him here.Not his cup of tea.
Maybe Radu Lupu (NDR-Sinfonieorchester and Dohnányi)? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuMCa-6gNJQ
thinking about it. Screw Zacharias, Brendel, Lupu, Haskil, Kissin, Rubinstein, Richter - maybe I would rate Kempff and maybe even Buchbinder above or around the same as Osetinskaya and Lang Lang - to be really confident I would have to check again though.Try this one:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r9ex6rubyxyhso2/Mozart%20KV%20491.mp3?dl=0Just listened to the first movement and the last variation of the 3rd movement.
I did not know who this pianist was; I had a feeling it was Lang Lang (touch and because I sort of have a feeling for pianists you like) and it seems it was indeed him (just checked yt).
Very good, much better than the last one you uploaded with him I think (I am really not too sure though - maybe my taste changed; the other one seemed more innocent and playful maybe, not as dark and serious).
But I think... Gould and Gieseking are just way better - next up is Schnabel, then probably Bashkirov and then maybe Osetinskaya and Lang Lang. The others are mostly very dull... and even Osetinskaya and Lang Lang don't really do it for me
dismissal of Lupu, Haskil, Zacharias, Brendel, Rubinstein and Richter though - Kempff and Buchbinder I listened to ages ago and thought they were quite good (Kempff being more lyrical if I remember correctly); maybe I would think differently today (IMaybe I am wrong about it being Lang Lang... maybe I should have compared directly, instead of just listening to a snippet of it and thinking it is Lang Lang. But I got other things to do as well.dk
In any case... I think Gould and Gieseking are the best; after them there is sort of a gap, after which comes Schnabel, after him there is a gap as well, a bigger one, and this is where it becomes more difficult for me... I am very sure about my
What about Kempff with Maderna?Forgot the Kempff / Maderna link, sorry
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LpbkpZNDG4&t=517s&ab_channel=cismollHe is as dull and cute as with Leitner (just listened to bits of both) - Can anyone imagine Kempff as being impish?
On Saturday, March 18, 2023 at 2:31:24 PM UTC, Mandryka wrote:this performance (melancholy, sorrow, anger etc.).
On Saturday, March 18, 2023 at 12:09:44 PM UTC, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 18. März 2023 um 03:06:11 UTC+1:
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 1:08:19 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Just listened to her playing the 3rd movement of KV 491 (with Markevitch) and I think I understand where you are coming from... yes.the problem with Lang Lang which I forgot toThe Lang van Bang performance I posted is
add also is: he has some weird "mannerisms"
(phrasing) which seem unnatural; but he
seems more free (than many/most others).
very interesting in more than one way. It is a
rather intimate reading, very subtly phrased,
and superbly played. It avoids the Sturm und
Drang approach so many pianists take with
KV 491, while still maintaining an unbroken
emotional flow from start to finish. To my
mind this is how Santa Clara could have
played it had she really lived up to her
undeserved reputation.
I also seem to agree with your assessment of it; but if I remember correctly this performance was more dark / serious (well it isn't really dark or serious is it) than the last one by Lang Lang that you uploaded. In any case I miss many things in
my favourites. Just remembered Richard Goode... I think he was also similar to Brendel...Lang Lang is interesting, but compared to Gould, Gieseking and Schnabel he is just trash; not worth listening to imo... I do not want to waste time thinking about if it was better than Brendel's or not; because in the end both are trash compared to
fact. I may get the Stockholm performance out later.Lang Lang did a good first movement cadenza. The recording with Harnoncourt is not so successful IMO but there are others available which are.dk
Gould recorded it at least twice, once live in Sweden, and the studio recording which everyone knows. It's years since I heard either of them but I remember that he was imaginative in the later variations in the studio recording, to some effect in
Goode is very variable. I heard him do a Diabelli Variations recently and I thought it was just glib. But before that I heard him do Debussy Preludes I and it was fabulous. I've never explored the studio recordings.And I've just found Gould in Stockholm and it does sound rather nice, even in Movement 1 -- which is hard to get off the page I think. But it's the pianist's show -- the orchestra isn't coming across as so interesting,.
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 8:21:10 PM UTC, Marc S wrote:as you once declared - there is a great recording of the Prokofiev PC 2 with him from some competition, but as I'm not interested in the piece I don't care).
Mandryka schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 13:15:20 UTC+1:
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 12:08:15 PM UTC, Mandryka wrote:
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 10:34:03 AM UTC, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 11:12:55 UTC+1:
Dan Koren schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 03:47:56 UTC+1:
On Thursday, March 16, 2023 at 2:22:14 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
I had not listened to this one by Radu Lupu when I posted the link. Listened to the first movement today (and the last variation in the 3rd movement) - I was not impressed. Radu Lupu is just a bit dull imo... he always disappoints me. (Maybe -Richter... hmmmm I was not too impressed with him here.Not his cup of tea.
Maybe Radu Lupu (NDR-Sinfonieorchester and Dohnányi)? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuMCa-6gNJQ
thinking about it. Screw Zacharias, Brendel, Lupu, Haskil, Kissin, Rubinstein, Richter - maybe I would rate Kempff and maybe even Buchbinder above or around the same as Osetinskaya and Lang Lang - to be really confident I would have to check again though.Try this one:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/r9ex6rubyxyhso2/Mozart%20KV%20491.mp3?dl=0Just listened to the first movement and the last variation of the 3rd movement.
I did not know who this pianist was; I had a feeling it was Lang Lang (touch and because I sort of have a feeling for pianists you like) and it seems it was indeed him (just checked yt).
Very good, much better than the last one you uploaded with him I think (I am really not too sure though - maybe my taste changed; the other one seemed more innocent and playful maybe, not as dark and serious).
But I think... Gould and Gieseking are just way better - next up is Schnabel, then probably Bashkirov and then maybe Osetinskaya and Lang Lang. The others are mostly very dull... and even Osetinskaya and Lang Lang don't really do it for me
my dismissal of Lupu, Haskil, Zacharias, Brendel, Rubinstein and Richter though - Kempff and Buchbinder I listened to ages ago and thought they were quite good (Kempff being more lyrical if I remember correctly); maybe I would think differently today (IMaybe I am wrong about it being Lang Lang... maybe I should have compared directly, instead of just listening to a snippet of it and thinking it is Lang Lang. But I got other things to do as well.dk
In any case... I think Gould and Gieseking are the best; after them there is sort of a gap, after which comes Schnabel, after him there is a gap as well, a bigger one, and this is where it becomes more difficult for me... I am very sure about
great collaborative music making. I love the delicate and warm music making in the variations - the winds especially.What about Kempff with Maderna?Forgot the Kempff / Maderna link, sorry
Haven’t heard the one with Leitner. This one is Bruno Maderna’s show. Kempff starts off slightly on autopilot (though he’s tender enough in the opening bars), but after less than 10 minutes into the first movement Maderna inspires him to somehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LpbkpZNDG4&t=517s&ab_channel=cismollHe is as dull and cute as with Leitner (just listened to bits of both) - Can anyone imagine Kempff as being impish?
The first movement cadenza is impressive.
Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 18. März 2023 um 02:59:50 UTC+1:
PS. It would be interesting to find out how many
folks in this group have actually heard Kempff
live. You can email me privately if you don't
want to be embarrassed, and I will tally the
votes (er, confessions!).
Does it matter?
I do not like to go to live performances btw as
I've been disappointed too often;
I would not go to a Grosvenor-Recital, never -
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 1:21:10 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Mandryka schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 13:15:20 UTC+1:> > On
Friday, March 17, 2023 at 12:08:15 PM UTC, Mandryka wrote:> > > On
Friday, March 17, 2023 at 10:34:03 AM UTC, Marc S wrote:> > >> > > What
about Kempff with Maderna?> >> > Forgot the Kempff / Maderna link,
sorry> >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LpbkpZNDG4
He is as dull and cute as with Leitner (just listened to bits> of both)
- Can anyone imagine Kempff as being impish?
Your ears seem to be functioning very well today! Did you switch to
Oolong? Audience, please note how an unbiased, unprejudiced listener withoutany axe to grind has immediately outed Kempffas a fraud!
Well done!
dk
PS. It would be interesting to find out how manyfolks in this group
have actually heard Kempfflive. You can email me privately if you
don'twant to be embarrassed, and I will tally thevotes (er,
confessions!).
On 2023-03-18 01:59:46 +0000, Dan Koren said:
On Friday, March 17, 2023 at 1:21:10 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Mandryka schrieb am Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 13:15:20 UTC+1:> > On
Friday, March 17, 2023 at 12:08:15 PM UTC, Mandryka wrote:> > > On
Friday, March 17, 2023 at 10:34:03 AM UTC, Marc S wrote:> > >> > > What >> about Kempff with Maderna?> >> > Forgot the Kempff / Maderna link,
sorry> >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LpbkpZNDG4
He is as dull and cute as with Leitner (just listened to bits> of both) >> - Can anyone imagine Kempff as being impish?
Your ears seem to be functioning very well today! Did you switch to Oolong? Audience, please note how an unbiased, unprejudiced listener withoutany axe to grind has immediately outed Kempffas a fraud!
Well done!
PS. It would be interesting to find out how manyfolks in this group
have actually heard Kempfflive. You can email me privately if you don'twant to be embarrassed, and I will tally thevotes (er,
confessions!).
You need a new keyboard, DK -- either your space
bar is broken, or you're missing thumbs.
Dan Koren schrieb am Sonntag, 19. März 2023 um 13:09:41 UTC+1:they can chime in and write about their experiences, but it does not matter to me, it does not change what I think about Kempff - the recordings speak for themselves... why would it be interesting to find out how many people have heard Kempff live in
On Saturday, March 18, 2023 at 4:47:16 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 18. März 2023 um 02:59:50 UTC+1:
PS. It would be interesting to find out how many
folks in this group have actually heard Kempff
live. You can email me privately if you don't
want to be embarrassed, and I will tally the
votes (er, confessions!).
I know about your theories:Does it matter?It does. Many artists sound different enough on
stage than they sound in studio recordings. Live
performances highlight and magnify both the
best and the worst in a performance. Folks
who only know Arrau or Backhaus or Kempff
from recordings have no idea how ugly they
sounded live and how incompetent they were
on the keyboard.
Great pianists are better live than on records.
Good pianists are the same live as they are on records (not talking about the "sound", but their musicality).
Bad pianists sound worse live than they do on records.
In any case you are again talking besides the point I made; it does not matter to me how many people in this group heard Kempff live and what they think about him (probably Henk and Mandryka did? And maybe Ahriman as well). I mean if people want to,
liek Schubert btw (just a thought, does not have anythign to do with Grosvenor, I think he does not play Schubert?)... god do I hate the German songs (probably songs in general), they remind me of Hurz! (I sort of like some of Berg and Webern I guess...).Look, if a screenplay is bad, I am not going to watch the movie to find out if I was wrong. Or maybe rather if a trailer is bad... it's maybe a more apt comparison.I do not like to go to live performances btw asPerhaps, however there is only one way to find
I've been disappointed too often;
out how an artist really performs.
You may enjoy him as much you like, but as explained above, I do not intend to find out... I think I am being very easy to understand and also reasonable. I have also not heard much from him as he does not seem to play the repertoire I like - I do notI would not go to a Grosvenor-Recital, never -Have you ever been to one? If not, your loss.
Don't be an idiot like Celibidache (I still think his Brahms symphonies are great btw, 1,3,4 - do not like 2 too much; but I still need to think about it more, anyway I am not too much interested in Brahms' symphonies generally; i do not think I'llneed them). Obviously, records can't capture the real sound, but even you hear things differently than other people in the concert hall (because of your seating, and your individual reception). Mengelberg's Beethoven is the best I ever heard, no matter
dk
On Saturday, March 18, 2023 at 4:47:16 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 18. März 2023 um 02:59:50 UTC+1:
PS. It would be interesting to find out how many
folks in this group have actually heard Kempff
live. You can email me privately if you don't
want to be embarrassed, and I will tally the
votes (er, confessions!).
Does it matter?It does. Many artists sound different enough on
stage than they sound in studio recordings. Live
performances highlight and magnify both the
best and the worst in a performance. Folks
who only know Arrau or Backhaus or Kempff
from recordings have no idea how ugly they
sounded live and how incompetent they were
on the keyboard.
I do not like to go to live performances btw asPerhaps, however there is only one way to find
I've been disappointed too often;
out how an artist really performs.
I would not go to a Grosvenor-Recital, never -Have you ever been to one? If not, your loss.
dk
Just listened to some piano solo stuff by Schubert again...
it's just too good. Made me realize I need Schubert... So
the only composers I really need are Bach, Mozart,
Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.
Just listened to some piano solo stuff by Schubert again... it's just too good. Made me realize I need Schubert... So the only composers I really need are Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 8:33:10 PM UTC, Marc S wrote:
Just listened to some piano solo stuff by Schubert again... it's just too good. Made me realize I need Schubert... So the only composers I really need are Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.I remember saying to someone in around 2005 that the only composers I need all have a name which starts with M - Monteverdi, Mahler and Mozart. Now I’m not interested in any of them all that much!
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 8:33:10 PM UTC, Marc S wrote:
Just listened to some piano solo stuff by Schubert again...
it's just too good. Made me realize I need Schubert... So
the only composers I really need are Bach, Mozart,
Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.
I remember saying to someone in around 2005 that
the only composers I need all have a name which
starts with M - Monteverdi, Mahler and Mozart.
Now I’m not interested in any of them all that
much!
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 1:33:10 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Just listened to some piano solo stuff by Schubert again...How can a German soul live without Buxtehude, Telemann,
it's just too good. Made me realize I need Schubert... So
the only composers I really need are Bach, Mozart,
Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.
Bruckner, Reger, Pfitzner, Orff, and Dick Wagner ?!? BTW
you don't realize Mendelssohn was every bit as good a
omposer as Schubert?
You also need several vaccines you seem to have skipped!
dk
Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 20. März 2023 um 23:45:58 UTC+1:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 1:33:10 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Just listened to some piano solo stuff by Schubert again...
it's just too good. Made me realize I need Schubert... So
the only composers I really need are Bach, Mozart,
Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.
How can a German soul live without Buxtehude, Telemann,
Bruckner, Reger, Pfitzner, Orff, and Dick Wagner ?!? BTW
you don't realize Mendelssohn was every bit as good a
omposer as Schubert?
Because this is simply not true, Schubert is by far the greater composer.
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 8:33:10 PM UTC, Marc S wrote:
Just listened to some piano solo stuff by Schubert again... it's just too good. Made me realize I need Schubert... So the only composers I really need are Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.I remember saying to someone in around 2005 that the only composers I need all have a name which starts with M - Monteverdi, Mahler and Mozart. Now I’m not interested in any of them all that much!
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 3:58:22 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 20. März 2023 um 23:45:58 UTC+1:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 1:33:10 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Just listened to some piano solo stuff by Schubert again...
it's just too good. Made me realize I need Schubert... So
the only composers I really need are Bach, Mozart,
Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.
How can a German soul live without Buxtehude, Telemann,
Bruckner, Reger, Pfitzner, Orff, and Dick Wagner ?!? BTW
you don't realize Mendelssohn was every bit as good a
omposer as Schubert?
Because this is simply not true, Schubert is by far the greater composer.
Greater than Buxtehude ?!? Even Bach worshipped Buxtehude! ;-)
dk
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 3:50:29 PM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 8:33:10 PM UTC, Marc S wrote:
Just listened to some piano solo stuff by Schubert again...
it's just too good. Made me realize I need Schubert... So
the only composers I really need are Bach, Mozart,
Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.
I remember saying to someone in around 2005 thatThe only composers I REALLY NEED are Albeniz
the only composers I need all have a name which
starts with M - Monteverdi, Mahler and Mozart.
Now I’m not interested in any of them all that
much!
and Bill Evans.
dk
Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 20. März 2023 um 23:58:14 UTC+1:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 3:50:29 PM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 8:33:10 PM UTC, Marc S wrote:
Just listened to some piano solo stuff by Schubert again...
it's just too good. Made me realize I need Schubert... So
the only composers I really need are Bach, Mozart,
Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.
I remember saying to someone in around 2005 thatThe only composers I REALLY NEED are Albeniz
the only composers I need all have a name which
starts with M - Monteverdi, Mahler and Mozart.
Now I’m not interested in any of them all that
much!
and Bill Evans.
dkBill Evans and Art Tatum were the only jazz musicians I sort of found interesting... but hmmmm... Albeniz... hmmmm...
You do realize than Mendelssohn is a much, much greater composer than either of them?
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 3:50:29 PM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 8:33:10 PM UTC, Marc S wrote:
Just listened to some piano solo stuff by Schubert again...
it's just too good. Made me realize I need Schubert... So
the only composers I really need are Bach, Mozart,
Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.
I remember saying to someone in around 2005 thatThe only composers I REALLY NEED are Albeniz
the only composers I need all have a name which
starts with M - Monteverdi, Mahler and Mozart.
Now I’m not interested in any of them all that
much!
and Bill Evans.
dk
On Tuesday, 21 March 2023 at 09:58:14 UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 3:50:29 PM UTC-7, Mandryka wrote:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 8:33:10 PM UTC, Marc S wrote:
Just listened to some piano solo stuff by Schubert again...
it's just too good. Made me realize I need Schubert... So
the only composers I really need are Bach, Mozart,
Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.
I remember saying to someone in around 2005 thatThe only composers I REALLY NEED are Albeniz
the only composers I need all have a name which
starts with M - Monteverdi, Mahler and Mozart.
Now I’m not interested in any of them all that
much!
and Bill Evans.
dkIt would be a sad day without Shosty, Prokofiev, Bax, Janacek, Bartok, Stravinsky and Sibelius.
The best two German composers are Mendelssohn and Bach. But Charlie Parker and Miles Davis are up there with all of them. I'll take LvB's quartets though. If really pushed for one only I'd have to take Bach, or I would be a fool.
Ray Hall, Taree
Mandryka schrieb am Montag, 20. März 2023 um 23:50:29 UTC+1:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 8:33:10 PM UTC, Marc S wrote:Just listened to the 1st movement of KV 491 by Richter... not good... I think I was wrong about the 3rd movement, I guess there were moments I liked or thought I liked... anyway: no, it does not work... it just seems I don't like him as a pianist...
Just listened to some piano solo stuff by Schubert again... it's just too good. Made me realize I need Schubert... So the only composers I really need are Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.I remember saying to someone in around 2005 that the only composers I need all have a name which starts with M - Monteverdi, Mahler and Mozart. Now I’m not interested in any of them all that much!
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 8:33:10 PM UTC, Marc S wrote:
Just listened to some piano solo stuff by Schubert again... it's just too good. Made me realize I need Schubert... So the only composers I really need are Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.I remember saying to someone in around 2005 that the only composers I need all have a name which starts with M - Monteverdi, Mahler and Mozart. Now I’m not interested in any of them all that much!
On Sunday, March 19, 2023 at 10:37:35 AM UTC-7, Owen Hartnett wrote:
On 2023-03-18 01:59:46 +0000, Dan Koren said:>> > On Friday, March 17,Just sent it back to Dell. They promised to replace it with a more dellicious one. I also ordered a pair of spare thumbs.
2023 at 1:21:10 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:> >> Mandryka schrieb am
Freitag, 17. März 2023 um 13:15:20 UTC+1:> > On> >> Friday, March 17,
2023 at 12:08:15 PM UTC, Mandryka wrote:> > > On> >> Friday, March 17,
2023 at 10:34:03 AM UTC, Marc S wrote:> > >> > > What> >> about Kempff
with Maderna?> >> > Forgot the Kempff / Maderna link,> >> sorry> >> >
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1LpbkpZNDG4> >>> >> He is as dull and
cute as with Leitner (just listened to bits> of both)> >> - Can anyone
imagine Kempff as being impish?> >> > Your ears seem to be functioning
very well today! Did you switch to> > Oolong? Audience, please note how
an unbiased, unprejudiced listener
withoutany axe to grind has immediately outed Kempffas a fraud!> > Well
done!> >> > PS. It would be interesting to find out how manyfolks in
this group> > have actually heard Kempfflive. You can email me
privately if you> > don'twant to be embarrassed, and I will tally
thevotes (er,> > confessions!).>> You need a new keyboard, DK -- either
your space> bar is broken, or you're missing thumbs.
dk
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 4:52:36 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
raymond....@gmail.com schrieb am Dienstag, 21. März 2023 um 00:45:16 UTC+1:
It would be a sad day without Shosty, Prokofiev,
Bax, Janacek, Bartok, Stravinsky and Sibelius.
Out of these I'd go for Shostakovich, Janacek andYou are screwing around too much lately.
Bartok - screw the rest... especially Bax and Sibelius.
How about seeing a physician for a change?
dk
raymond....@gmail.com schrieb am Dienstag, 21. März 2023 um 00:45:16 UTC+1:
It would be a sad day without Shosty, Prokofiev,
Bax, Janacek, Bartok, Stravinsky and Sibelius.
Out of these I'd go for Shostakovich, Janacek and
Bartok - screw the rest... especially Bax and Sibelius.
You do realize than Mendelssohn is a much,
much greater composer than either of them?
Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 21. März 2023 um 03:38:35 UTC+1:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 4:52:36 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Out of these I'd go for Shostakovich,
Janacek and Bartok - screw the rest...
especially Bax and Sibelius.
You are screwing around too much lately.
I do not think so. Bax and Sibelius can be
accused of this (at least while they were alive).
The only composers I REALLY NEED are Albeniz
and Bill Evans.
Le 20/03/2023, Dan Koren a supposé :
The only composers I REALLY
NEED are Albeniz and Bill Evans.
*Monteverdi*...*JSB*...*Beethoven*...
*Schubert*...*Liszt*...*Debussy*...
Just listened to some piano solo stuff by Schubert again...
it's just too good. Made me realize I need Schubert...
So the only composers I really need are Bach,
Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 7:53:15 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 21. März 2023 um 03:38:35 UTC+1:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 4:52:36 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Out of these I'd go for Shostakovich,
Janacek and Bartok - screw the rest...
especially Bax and Sibelius.
You are screwing around too much lately.
I do not think so. Bax and Sibelius can beThis doesn't sound to your ears like screwing
accused of this (at least while they were alive).
around? It sounds to mine! ;-)
https://youtu.be/ltplS9pUKfw
https://youtu.be/xv2jihxZ6Ok
https://youtu.be/PsO9uNs59Ok
https://youtu.be/xv2jihxZ6Ok
https://youtu.be/X63jKCcJ_4s
https://youtu.be/-iDn8-Uuahk
https://youtu.be/vSLBpsPp0ZE
https://youtu.be/v9SPbrBrfEo
https://youtu.be/YrEFRhA05T4
https://youtu.be/DLggHrz_X2U
https://youtu.be/p7asHalYDoE
https://youtu.be/n-RAXEKVZz8
https://youtu.be/MyLt0jeXq54
Far better than Berlioz and far
more interesting than Bruckner.
dk
Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 21. März 2023 um 07:00:27 UTC+1:Shostakovich?
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 7:53:15 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 21. März 2023 um 03:38:35 UTC+1:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 4:52:36 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Out of these I'd go for Shostakovich,
Janacek and Bartok - screw the rest...
especially Bax and Sibelius.
You are screwing around too much lately.
I do not think so. Bax and Sibelius can beThis doesn't sound to your ears like screwing
accused of this (at least while they were alive).
around? It sounds to mine! ;-)
https://youtu.be/ltplS9pUKfw
https://youtu.be/xv2jihxZ6Ok
https://youtu.be/PsO9uNs59Ok
https://youtu.be/xv2jihxZ6Ok
https://youtu.be/X63jKCcJ_4s
https://youtu.be/-iDn8-Uuahk
https://youtu.be/vSLBpsPp0ZE
https://youtu.be/v9SPbrBrfEo
https://youtu.be/YrEFRhA05T4
https://youtu.be/DLggHrz_X2U
https://youtu.be/p7asHalYDoE
https://youtu.be/n-RAXEKVZz8
https://youtu.be/MyLt0jeXq54
Far better than Berlioz and farI don't know... they all are unlistenable imo... Wagner is far better than any of the guys you mentioned.
more interesting than Bruckner.
Furthermore my point was that Shostakovich, Janacek and Bartok were far better composers than Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Bax or Sibelius... I think the last 4 are unlistenable as well, while the first 3 are at least interesting in some ways.
Out of the composers mentioned by Ray (excluding Bach, Beethoven, Mendelssohn and the Jazz guys) I would guess that yoru ranking woul be sth like Sibelius and Prokofiev at the top, then probably Janacek or Stravinsky, then Bax or Bartok and last:
dk
On Tuesday, March 21, 2023 at 1:25:18 AM UTC-7, MELMOTH wrote:
Le 20/03/2023, Dan Koren a supposé :
The only composers I REALLY
NEED are Albeniz and Bill Evans.
*Monteverdi*...*JSB*...*Beethoven*...Boieldieu? Berlioz? Franck? Satie?
*Schubert*...*Liszt*...*Debussy*...
Meyerbeer? d'Indy? Chaminade?
Chausson? Ropartz? Magnard?
Alkan? Ravel? Poulenc? Lully?
Rameau? Couperin? Roussel?
Lalo? Gounod? Saint-Saëns?
Mais où est la France ?!?
dk
Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 21. März 2023 um 07:00:27 UTC+1:Shostakovich?
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 7:53:15 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 21. März 2023 um 03:38:35 UTC+1:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 4:52:36 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Out of these I'd go for Shostakovich,
Janacek and Bartok - screw the rest...
especially Bax and Sibelius.
You are screwing around too much lately.
I do not think so. Bax and Sibelius can beThis doesn't sound to your ears like screwing
accused of this (at least while they were alive).
around? It sounds to mine! ;-)
https://youtu.be/ltplS9pUKfw
https://youtu.be/xv2jihxZ6Ok
https://youtu.be/PsO9uNs59Ok
https://youtu.be/xv2jihxZ6Ok
https://youtu.be/X63jKCcJ_4s
https://youtu.be/-iDn8-Uuahk
https://youtu.be/vSLBpsPp0ZE
https://youtu.be/v9SPbrBrfEo
https://youtu.be/YrEFRhA05T4
https://youtu.be/DLggHrz_X2U
https://youtu.be/p7asHalYDoE
https://youtu.be/n-RAXEKVZz8
https://youtu.be/MyLt0jeXq54
Far better than Berlioz and farI don't know... they all are unlistenable imo... Wagner is far better than any of the guys you mentioned.
more interesting than Bruckner.
Furthermore my point was that Shostakovich, Janacek and Bartok were far better composers than Prokofiev, Stravinsky, Bax or Sibelius... I think the last 4 are unlistenable as well, while the first 3 are at least interesting in some ways.
Out of the composers mentioned by Ray (excluding Bach, Beethoven, Mendelssohn and the Jazz guys) I would guess that yoru ranking woul be sth like Sibelius and Prokofiev at the top, then probably Janacek or Stravinsky, then Bax or Bartok and last:
dk
Mandryka schrieb am Montag, 20. März 2023 um 23:50:29 UTC+1:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 8:33:10 PM UTC, Marc S wrote:> > Just
listened to some piano solo stuff by Schubert again... it's just too
good. Made me realize I need Schubert... So the only composers I really
need are Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.
I remember saying to someone in around 2005 that the only composers I
need all have a name which starts with M - Monteverdi, Mahler and
Mozart. Now I’m not interested in any of them all that much!
Well you know... I am not you.
On 2023-03-20 22:54:19 +0000, Marc S said:
Mandryka schrieb am Montag, 20. März 2023 um 23:50:29 UTC+1:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 8:33:10 PM UTC, Marc S wrote:> > Just
listened to some piano solo stuff by Schubert again... it's just too
good. Made me realize I need Schubert... So the only composers I really >> need are Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.
I remember saying to someone in around 2005 that the only composers I
need all have a name which starts with M - Monteverdi, Mahler and
Mozart. Now I’m not interested in any of them all that much!
Well you know... I am not you.I believe what Mandryka was trying to say was that, as we grow older,
we wear out our favorites such that we can only deal with them as an occasional treat, but not a steady diet.
In my 20's, and 30's, I'd travel far to hear my favorite conductors
play a Beethoven symphony, but I"ve heard them so many times...
Same with Brahms, and like W.C. Fields said about women and elephants,
I admire Bach but I wouldn't want to own him.
-Owen
like W.C. Fields said about women and elephants,
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 21. März 2023 um 19:50:08 UTC+1:older...". I have listened to all sorts of music all my life, long before I got into classical msuic, and I was aways on the quest to find something better than I heard before... I was called a musical Nazi (stupid term, bu tjust to give an idea) by
On 2023-03-20 22:54:19 +0000, Marc S said:
Mandryka schrieb am Montag, 20. März 2023 um 23:50:29 UTC+1:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 8:33:10 PM UTC, Marc S wrote:> > Just
listened to some piano solo stuff by Schubert again... it's just too
good. Made me realize I need Schubert... So the only composers I really >> need are Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.
I remember saying to someone in around 2005 that the only composers I >> need all have a name which starts with M - Monteverdi, Mahler and
Mozart. Now I’m not interested in any of them all that much!
Well... yes... either this or that his favourite composers changed over time. In any case I am different from you and Mandryka. You don't seem to get what I was trying to say... you seem to think all humans share the same experiences: "...as _we_ growWell you know... I am not you.I believe what Mandryka was trying to say was that, as we grow older,
we wear out our favorites such that we can only deal with them as an occasional treat, but not a steady diet.
very likely never happen - I do get bored of Mozart... well then I for sure will not turn to worse music... why would I?In my 20's, and 30's, I'd travel far to hear my favorite conductors
play a Beethoven symphony, but I"ve heard them so many times...
You see, I don't intend to spend my time listening to bad music... because it makes me feel bad; as of yet, I can listen to Mozart everyday without getting bored.... and I do not think this will ever change. And if - for whatever reason, which will
Same with Brahms, and like W.C. Fields said about women and elephants,If you want to listen to bad music, just because you listened to good music too often... that's your choice. But I see and do things differently.
I admire Bach but I wouldn't want to own him.
-Owen
Marc S schrieb am Mittwoch, 22. März 2023 um 09:39:00 UTC+1:grow older...". I have listened to all sorts of music all my life, long before I got into classical msuic, and I was aways on the quest to find something better than I heard before... I was called a musical Nazi (stupid term, bu tjust to give an idea) by
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 21. März 2023 um 19:50:08 UTC+1:
On 2023-03-20 22:54:19 +0000, Marc S said:
Mandryka schrieb am Montag, 20. März 2023 um 23:50:29 UTC+1:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 8:33:10 PM UTC, Marc S wrote:> > Just >> listened to some piano solo stuff by Schubert again... it's just too >> good. Made me realize I need Schubert... So the only composers I really
need are Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.
I remember saying to someone in around 2005 that the only composers I >> need all have a name which starts with M - Monteverdi, Mahler and
Mozart. Now I’m not interested in any of them all that much!
Well... yes... either this or that his favourite composers changed over time. In any case I am different from you and Mandryka. You don't seem to get what I was trying to say... you seem to think all humans share the same experiences: "...as _we_Well you know... I am not you.I believe what Mandryka was trying to say was that, as we grow older,
we wear out our favorites such that we can only deal with them as an occasional treat, but not a steady diet.
*music-Nazi (not a musical Nazi)very likely never happen - I do get bored of Mozart... well then I for sure will not turn to worse music... why would I?
In my 20's, and 30's, I'd travel far to hear my favorite conductors
play a Beethoven symphony, but I"ve heard them so many times...
You see, I don't intend to spend my time listening to bad music... because it makes me feel bad; as of yet, I can listen to Mozart everyday without getting bored.... and I do not think this will ever change. And if - for whatever reason, which will
Same with Brahms, and like W.C. Fields said about women and elephants,If you want to listen to bad music, just because you listened to good music too often... that's your choice. But I see and do things differently.
I admire Bach but I wouldn't want to own him.
-Owen
On 2023-03-20 22:54:19 +0000, Marc S said:
Mandryka schrieb am Montag, 20. März 2023 um 23:50:29 UTC+1:
On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 8:33:10 PM UTC, Marc S wrote:> > Just
listened to some piano solo stuff by Schubert again... it's just too
good. Made me realize I need Schubert... So the only composers I really >> need are Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.
I remember saying to someone in around 2005 that the only composers I
need all have a name which starts with M - Monteverdi, Mahler and
Mozart. Now I’m not interested in any of them all that much!
Well you know... I am not you.I believe what Mandryka was trying to say was that, as we grow older,
we wear out our favorites such that we can only deal with them as an occasional treat, but not a steady diet.
In my 20's, and 30's, I'd travel far to hear my favorite conductors
play a Beethoven symphony, but I"ve heard them so many times...
Same with Brahms, and like W.C. Fields said about women and elephants,
I admire Bach but I wouldn't want to own him.
-Owen
The more I listen the more I am sure I only need
Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms...
I could not stand hearing Chopin, Prokofiev,
Rachmaninov, Tchaikovsky, Debussy etc
ever again.
If you want to listen to bad music, just because you listened to good music too often... that's your choice. But I see and do things differently.
On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 1:52:28 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
The more I listen the more I am sure I only needYou are excommunicated -- effective immediately!
Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms...
I could not stand hearing Chopin, Prokofiev,
Rachmaninov, Tchaikovsky, Debussy etc
ever again.
dk
On 2023-03-22 08:38:57 +0000, Marc S said:with M - Monteverdi, Mahler and> >> Mozart. Now I’m not interested in any of them all that much!> >> > Well you know... I am not you.
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 21. März 2023 um 19:50:08 UTC+1:
On 2023-03-20 22:54:19 +0000, Marc S said:>> > Mandryka schrieb am Montag, 20. März 2023 um 23:50:29 UTC+1:> >> On Monday, March 20, 2023 at 8:33:10 PM UTC, Marc S wrote:> > Just> >> listened to some piano solo stuff by Schubert again... it's just
good. Made me realize I need Schubert... So the only composers I really> >> need are Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.> >> I remember saying to someone in around 2005 that the only composers I> >> need all have a name which starts
I believe what Mandryka was trying to say was that, as we grow older,> we wear out our favorites such that we can only deal with them as an> occasional treat, but not a steady diet.
Well... yes... either this or that his favourite composers changed over time. Virtually the same thing.
In any case I am different from you and Mandryka. You don't seem to get what I was trying to say... you seem to think all humans share the same experiences: "...as _we_ grow older...". I have listened to all sorts of music all my life, long before Igot into classical msuic, and I was aways on the quest to find something better than I heard before... I was called a musical Nazi (stupid term, bu tjust to give an idea) by friend of mine. I am not interested in mediocre music - 99% of music is just
You seem to approach music from a competitive viewpoint, in a quest for the "best" music, which most fits your taste. Can there not be more than one approach that you appreciate?preconceived ideas about that music.
I think most of us have started in classical music with a similar approach, but sometimes hearing something completely unexpected in a performance makes us realize that an alternative viewpoint could be at least as good, if not better than our already
It's often the personality I sense behind the music that I do not like (Mahler being too whiney for example...) and also a lack of "no-nonsense- approach" (mahler is not a no-nonsense guy... Schumann isn't either). So for me to like music that I havealready dismissed, my personality would need to change, which it very likely won't.... The only music that does not do this (make me feel bad in some ways about the music I am hearing) is the music of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms - the
In my 20's, and 30's, I'd travel far to hear my favorite conductors> play a Beethoven symphony, but I"ve heard them so many times...>very likely never happen - I do get bored of Mozart... well then I for sure will not turn to worse music... why would I?
You see, I don't intend to spend my time listening to bad music... because it makes me feel bad; as of yet, I can listen to Mozart everyday without getting bored.... and I do not think this will ever change. And if - for whatever reason, which will
Do you play an instrument? I've found that trying to play a piece of music myself gives me much greater insight into the piece.
Same with Brahms, and like W.C. Fields said about women and elephants,> I admire Bach but I wouldn't want to own him.
If you want to listen to bad music, just because you listened to good music too often... that's your choice. But I see and do things differently.
The fact that other people speak highly of some music I "don't get" sometimes motivates me to explore it further just to see what they like about it.
-Owen
Owen Hartnett schrieb am Dienstag, 21. März 2023 um 19:50:08 UTC+1:
On 2023-03-20 22:54:19 +0000, Marc S said:>> > Mandryka schrieb amWell... yes... either this or that his favourite composers changed over time.
Montag, 20. März 2023 um 23:50:29 UTC+1:> >> On Monday, March 20, 2023
at 8:33:10 PM UTC, Marc S wrote:> > Just> >> listened to some piano
solo stuff by Schubert again... it's just too> >> good. Made me realize
I need Schubert... So the only composers I really> >> need are Bach,
Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms.> >> I remember saying to
someone in around 2005 that the only composers I> >> need all have a
name which starts with M - Monteverdi, Mahler and> >> Mozart. Now I’m
not interested in any of them all that much!> >> > Well you know... I
am not you.
I believe what Mandryka was trying to say was that, as we grow older,>
we wear out our favorites such that we can only deal with them as an>
occasional treat, but not a steady diet.
In any case I am different from you and Mandryka. You don't seem to
get what I was trying to say... you seem to think all humans share the
same experiences: "...as _we_ grow older...". I have listened to all
sorts of music all my life, long before I got into classical msuic, and
I was aways on the quest to find something better than I heard
before... I was called a musical Nazi (stupid term, bu tjust to give an
idea) by friend of mine. I am not interested in mediocre music - 99% of
music is just absolute shit; it gibves me a bad feeling, in different
ways.
It's often the personality I sense behind the music that I do not like (Mahler being too whiney for example...) and also a lack of
"no-nonsense- approach" (mahler is not a no-nonsense guy... Schumann
isn't either). So for me to like music that I have already dismissed,
my personality would need to change, which it very likely won't.... The
only music that does not do this (make me feel bad in some ways about
the music I am hearing) is the music of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven,
Schubert and Brahms - the only other composers I get something out of
and don't make me feel like an idiot are: Schoenberg and Berg.
You see, I don't intend to spend my time listening to bad music...
In my 20's, and 30's, I'd travel far to hear my favorite conductors>
play a Beethoven symphony, but I"ve heard them so many times...>
because it makes me feel bad; as of yet, I can listen to Mozart
everyday without getting bored.... and I do not think this will ever
change. And if - for whatever reason, which will very likely never
happen - I do get bored of Mozart... well then I for sure will not turn
to worse music... why would I?
Same with Brahms, and like W.C. Fields said about women and elephants,>If you want to listen to bad music, just because you listened to good
I admire Bach but I wouldn't want to own him.
music too often... that's your choice. But I see and do things
differently.
I think my rankings wrt composers would be as follows:
1) Mozart
2) Beethoven
3) Bach, Brahms, Schubert
4) Berg, Haydn, Schoenberg, Schumann, Wagner
*the difference between placements (and also composers; alphabetical order btw) is individual; after this comes a big jump.
And it becomes more difficult thinking about it... probably:
5) Chopin, Mahler, Scriabin, Strauss, Shostakovich
and then... hmmm, does not matter anyway, tired of thinkign about it, but these I am very sure about... I think maybe I would also rate some less known composers from the classical period higher (example: Hummel) if I listened to them more... this isjust a ranking based on composers I know.
I think my rankings wrt composers would be as follows:Schumann, Wagner
1) Mozart
2) Beethoven
3) Bach, Brahms, Schubert
4) Berg, Haydn, Schoenberg,
On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 4:06:50 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
I think my rankings wrt composers would be as follows:
1) MozartSchumann, Wagner
2) Beethoven
3) Bach, Brahms, Schubert
4) Berg, Haydn, Schoenberg,
Rankings are meaningless. One likes whatever
one likes, and one dislikes whatever one dislikes.
Is there any point in comparing soup and dessert?
It is perfectly OK to like and enjoy both. Beethoven
ofc tastes like bleach.
dk
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 01:45:51 UTC+1:
On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 4:06:50 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
I think my rankings wrt composers would be as follows:
1) Mozart
2) Beethoven
3) Bach, Brahms, Schubert
4) Berg, Haydn, Schoenberg, Schumann, Wagner
Rankings are meaningless. One likes whatever
one likes, and one dislikes whatever one dislikes.
Is there any point in comparing soup and dessert?
First of all: Soup and desserts are sth completely
different from art. (Kant has interesting ideas about
the difference between judging a meal and judging a
work of art; ideas you likely won't be able to get.)
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 01:45:51 UTC+1:
On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 4:06:50 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
I think my rankings wrt composers would be as follows:
First of all: Soup and desserts are sth completely different from art. (Kant has interesting ideas about the difference between judging a meal and judging a work of art; ideas you likely won't be able to get.)1) MozartSchumann, Wagner
2) Beethoven
3) Bach, Brahms, Schubert
4) Berg, Haydn, Schoenberg,
Rankings are meaningless. One likes whatever
one likes, and one dislikes whatever one dislikes.
Is there any point in comparing soup and dessert?
Secondly if one likes some music and dislikes some other music there is already a ranking of sorts taking place... so the point you are making goes against what you think you are pointing out... this you likely won't get either...
It is perfectly OK to like and enjoy both. BeethovenThis just goes on to show that your taste is corrupted.
ofc tastes like bleach.
were honest?...dk
You may make it simple for yourself (*I like what I like, and don't what I don't like), I won't.
So since you obviously "like" Grosvenor and you also "like" Volodos, you like them the same, right? No further evaluation about rankings needed, hm? Or could it be that you actually rank Volodos above Grosvenor if you thought a little more and if you
Well... I don't like Grosvenor, but Volodos is very good and I rank him way above Grosvenor; if you don't, it's just another sign that your taste is corrupted.
So since you obviously "like" Grosvenor and
you also "like" Volodos, you like them the same,
right? No further evaluation about rankings needed,
hm? Or could it be that you actually rank Volodos
above Grosvenor if you thought a little more and
if you were honest?...
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 08:52:47 UTC+1:
If you don't understand that food can be art, you do
not really understand anything. Adorno and Kant are
wasted on you.
Says you, who never read Adorno or Kant...
You sound a bit like a religious zealot: Food is art,
Food is art, Food is art; thereby thinking that food
really is art. ("Bible is from god, bible is from god,
bible is from god").
You don't give me any understanding about why
food should be considered art... you don't give
me any arguments. You may believe your nonsense...
How about you explain to me why some food
would be considered art and some food wouldn't?
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 08:52:47 UTC+1:of the food might be art, but not neccesarily.
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 12:43:08 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 01:45:51 UTC+1:
On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 4:06:50 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
I think my rankings wrt composers would be as follows:
1) Mozart
2) Beethoven
3) Bach, Brahms, Schubert
4) Berg, Haydn, Schoenberg, Schumann, Wagner
Rankings are meaningless. One likes whatever
one likes, and one dislikes whatever one dislikes.
Is there any point in comparing soup and dessert?
First of all: Soup and desserts are sth completelyKant probably never had dinner at restaurants such
different from art. (Kant has interesting ideas about
the difference between judging a meal and judging a
work of art; ideas you likely won't be able to get.)
as El Bulli, L'Aubergine or L'Oranger, where food is art.
It is rather that you never read Kant and don't understand how wrong you are with what you are saying.
It does not matter how fancy a restaurant is (I ate 800$ Shabu-Shabu-dinner in Tokyo my dear friend...). There is still a difference in judging a work of art and judging food; there is also a difference between a painting and music. etc etc.
Judgements about food Kant considers judgements of the agreeable: You like this food, okay you like it and I don't. => agreeable
Judgements about music Kant considers judgements of beauty (or sublime)... These are aesthetic judgements. Whether you like some food and dislike other food is not an aesthetic judgement no matter how fancy the food looks on the plate; the decoration
If you ever visit Milan I can steer you to a restaurantThey may think it is art, and you may think it is art; but food is not art.
where food is art. I stop there for dinner every time I
am in the area. Last time (2013) I drove there from
Munich just for dinner.
If you don't understand that food can be art, you doSays you, who never read Adorno or Kant...
not really understand anything. Adorno and Kant are
wasted on you.
You sound a bit like a religious zealot: Food is art, Food is art, Food is art; thereby thinking that food really is art. ("Bible is from god, bible is from god, bible is from god").
You don't give me any understanding about why food should be considered art... you don't give me any arguments. You may believe your nonsense...
How about you explain to me why some food would be considered art and some food wouldn't?
The Japanese boil green tea as if it were art; it is not art. If I produce Nickel(II)-Chloride in a chemistry lab it is also not art... Are chemists artists? Are tea-boilers artists? I do not think so...
dk
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 12:43:08 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 01:45:51 UTC+1:
On Wednesday, March 22, 2023 at 4:06:50 PM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
I think my rankings wrt composers would be as follows:
1) Mozart
2) Beethoven
3) Bach, Brahms, Schubert
4) Berg, Haydn, Schoenberg, Schumann, Wagner
Rankings are meaningless. One likes whatever
one likes, and one dislikes whatever one dislikes.
Is there any point in comparing soup and dessert?
First of all: Soup and desserts are sth completelyKant probably never had dinner at restaurants such
different from art. (Kant has interesting ideas about
the difference between judging a meal and judging a
work of art; ideas you likely won't be able to get.)
as El Bulli, L'Aubergine or L'Oranger, where food is art.
If you ever visit Milan I can steer you to a restaurant
where food is art. I stop there for dinner every time I
am in the area. Last time (2013) I drove there from
Munich just for dinner.
If you don't understand that food can be art, you do
not really understand anything. Adorno and Kant are
wasted on you.
dk
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 12:43:08 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
So since you obviously "like" Grosvenor andNot at all. They are both good enough and different
you also "like" Volodos, you like them the same,
right? No further evaluation about rankings needed,
hm? Or could it be that you actually rank Volodos
above Grosvenor if you thought a little more and
if you were honest?...
enough that I see no point in "ranking" them. This is
oh so Prussian. I am not a (law and) order person.
If you were a wee bit smarter than you are, you
would have asked the question differently, e.g.
which of the two I would pick to hear if they
both performed the same night in different
venues. It would be down to the programs.
If the programs were identical, I would most
likely pick Grosvenor, because he is younger
and more likely to surprise me.
Incidentally, this is not a hypothetical scenario.
I flew to London in June 1997 to hear Zhukov's
London debut recital at Wigmore Hall. He was
rather unlucky since both Kissin and Argerich
gave concerts the same evening, one at the
Barbican and the other at the Royal Festival
Hall.
dk
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 1:15:41 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 08:52:47 UTC+1:
If you don't understand that food can be art, you do
not really understand anything. Adorno and Kant are
wasted on you.
Says you, who never read Adorno or Kant...
You sound a bit like a religious zealot: Food is art,I only said it once. The zealotry is your imagination.
Food is art, Food is art; thereby thinking that food
really is art. ("Bible is from god, bible is from god,
bible is from god").
Your project zealotry on everyone else because you
are a zealot.
You don't give me any understanding about whyI am not giving you any arguments or explanations
food should be considered art... you don't give
me any arguments. You may believe your nonsense...
because the only way to understand that food can
be art is by eating it.
How about you explain to me why some foodTry https://www.illuogoaimoenadia.com/ in Milan,
would be considered art and some food wouldn't?
than eat a fast food burger. Your stomach will be
able to tell immediately which one is art and which
one is poison.
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 09:26:51 UTC+1:
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 1:15:41 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
How about you explain to me why some food
would be considered art and some food wouldn't?
Try https://www.illuogoaimoenadia.com/ in Milan,
than eat a fast food burger. Your stomach will be
able to tell immediately which one is art and which
one is poison.
Lastly: If you want to treat music (or art in general)
as if were food... you are surely on the wrong path,
but you are allowed to follow it.
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 1:15:41 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 08:52:47 UTC+1:
If you don't understand that food can be art, you do
not really understand anything. Adorno and Kant are
wasted on you.
Says you, who never read Adorno or Kant...
You sound a bit like a religious zealot: Food is art,I only said it once. The zealotry is your imagination.
Food is art, Food is art; thereby thinking that food
really is art. ("Bible is from god, bible is from god,
bible is from god").
Your project zealotry on everyone else because you
are a zealot.
You don't give me any understanding about whyI am not giving you any arguments or explanations
food should be considered art... you don't give
me any arguments. You may believe your nonsense...
because the only way to understand that food can
be art is by eating it.
How about you explain to me why some foodTry https://www.illuogoaimoenadia.com/ in Milan,
would be considered art and some food wouldn't?
than eat a fast food burger. Your stomach will be
able to tell immediately which one is art and which
one is poison.
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 1:46:47 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 09:26:51 UTC+1:
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 1:15:41 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
How about you explain to me why some food
would be considered art and some food wouldn't?
Try https://www.illuogoaimoenadia.com/ in Milan,
than eat a fast food burger. Your stomach will be
able to tell immediately which one is art and which
one is poison.
Lastly: If you want to treat music (or art in general)There are no "right" or "wrong" paths. You really need
as if were food... you are surely on the wrong path,
but you are allowed to follow it.
to get rid of your Prussian normative prescriptive
mindset.
dk
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 09:50:08 UTC+1:
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 1:46:47 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 09:26:51 UTC+1:
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 1:15:41 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
How about you explain to me why some food
would be considered art and some food wouldn't?
Try https://www.illuogoaimoenadia.com/ in Milan,
than eat a fast food burger. Your stomach will be
able to tell immediately which one is art and which
one is poison.
No, you really need to start "thinking" more... especially about how contradictory you are. But since you are incapable of admitting mistakes (similar to how you were not able to admit how wrong you were wrt to Juan), you will never change.Lastly: If you want to treat music (or art in general)There are no "right" or "wrong" paths. You really need
as if were food... you are surely on the wrong path,
but you are allowed to follow it.
to get rid of your Prussian normative prescriptive
mindset.
You ranked food (like a prussian would, and like I would), you rank some restaurants above other restaurants... and then you point fingers at people who rank musicians (while you have ranked musicians yorurself). Can't make this shit up...
Since Dan has no arguments, all he does is go "ad hominem" (prussian etc)... very sad.
dk
Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 09:54:49 UTC+1:
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 09:50:08 UTC+1:
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 1:46:47 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Lastly: If you want to treat music (or art in general)
as if were food... you are surely on the wrong path,
but you are allowed to follow it.
There are no "right" or "wrong" paths. You really need
to get rid of your Prussian normative prescriptive
mindset.
No, you really need to start "thinking" more...
especially about how contradictory you are.
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 2:01:17 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 09:54:49 UTC+1:
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 09:50:08 UTC+1:
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 1:46:47 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Lastly: If you want to treat music (or art in general)
as if were food... you are surely on the wrong path,
but you are allowed to follow it.
There are no "right" or "wrong" paths. You really need
to get rid of your Prussian normative prescriptive
mindset.
Too late -- why bother?No, you really need to start "thinking" more...
especially about how contradictory you are.One cannot be "contradictory" if one does not
think.
dk
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 2:01:17 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 09:54:49 UTC+1:
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 09:50:08 UTC+1:
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 1:46:47 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Lastly: If you want to treat music (or art in general)
as if were food... you are surely on the wrong path,
but you are allowed to follow it.
There are no "right" or "wrong" paths. You really need
to get rid of your Prussian normative prescriptive
mindset.
Too late -- why bother?No, you really need to start "thinking" more...
especially about how contradictory you are.One cannot be "contradictory" if one does not
think.
dk
thinking about it, I should probably exchange Chopin and Scriabin with Wagner... ya... maybe even Shostakovich... anyway who cares
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 1:46:47 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 09:26:51 UTC+1:
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 1:15:41 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
How about you explain to me why some food
would be considered art and some food wouldn't?
Try https://www.illuogoaimoenadia.com/ in Milan,
than eat a fast food burger. Your stomach will be
able to tell immediately which one is art and which
one is poison.
Lastly: If you want to treat music (or art in general)There are no "right" or "wrong" paths. You really need
as if were food... you are surely on the wrong path,
but you are allowed to follow it.
to get rid of your Prussian normative prescriptive
mindset.
dk
Op donderdag 23 maart 2023 om 00:33:59 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:
thinking about it, I should probably exchange Chopin and Scriabin with Wagner... ya... maybe even Shostakovich... anyway who caresExactly: who cares?
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 09:50:08 UTC+1:nonsensical; one does not get anything out of it ("Jargon of authenticity"... you think you say sth meaningful but in the end you end up saying nonsense).
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 1:46:47 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 09:26:51 UTC+1:
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 1:15:41 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
How about you explain to me why some food
would be considered art and some food wouldn't?
Try https://www.illuogoaimoenadia.com/ in Milan,
than eat a fast food burger. Your stomach will be
able to tell immediately which one is art and which
one is poison.
Lastly: If you want to treat music (or art in general)There are no "right" or "wrong" paths. You really need
as if were food... you are surely on the wrong path,
but you are allowed to follow it.
to get rid of your Prussian normative prescriptive
mindset.
dkYou should also note the following: I am not telling you what _the_ right path is. I am just telling you what is wrong; and it is quite obvious (to anyone who is reasonable at least) that food and music is sth different and that your comparison is
The Christian crusaders (as opposed to the bible), or the Muslim conquerors (not as opposed to the Quran and Sunnah, but exactly as the Quran adn Sunnah demand) or Hitler and the Nazis, or Lenin and the (pseudo)communists all thought they had found _the_ right path; they all had an utopian vision... this is all quite different from me telling you about what is wrong. As Horkheimer said: We can't know what "the right thing" is, but we can know what is wrong. (We do can't know how a perfect world
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 09:50:08 UTC+1:nonsensical; one does not get anything out of it ("Jargon of authenticity"... you think you say sth meaningful but in the end you end up saying nonsense).
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 1:46:47 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 09:26:51 UTC+1:
On Thursday, March 23, 2023 at 1:15:41 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
How about you explain to me why some food
would be considered art and some food wouldn't?
Try https://www.illuogoaimoenadia.com/ in Milan,
than eat a fast food burger. Your stomach will be
able to tell immediately which one is art and which
one is poison.
Lastly: If you want to treat music (or art in general)There are no "right" or "wrong" paths. You really need
as if were food... you are surely on the wrong path,
but you are allowed to follow it.
to get rid of your Prussian normative prescriptive
mindset.
dkYou should also note the following: I am not telling you what _the_ right path is. I am just telling you what is wrong; and it is quite obvious (to anyone who is reasonable at least) that food and music is sth different and that your comparison is
The Christian crusaders (as opposed to the bible), or the Muslim conquerors (not as opposed to the Quran and Sunnah, but exactly as the Quran adn Sunnah demand) or Hitler and the Nazis, or Lenin and the (pseudo)communists all thought they had found _the_ right path; they all had an utopian vision... this is all quite different from me telling you about what is wrong. As Horkheimer said: We can't know what "the right thing" is, but we can know what is wrong. (We do can't know how a perfect world
Gerard schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 13:35:49 UTC+1:
Op donderdag 23 maart 2023 om 00:33:59 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:
Another genial comment by the other ridiculously overeducated dutch guy from this group...thinking about it, I should probably exchange Chopin and Scriabin with Wagner... ya... maybe even Shostakovich... anyway who caresExactly: who cares?
These comments, utterly devoid of self-reflection, triggered by feelings of animosity and resentment towards myself, always fill me with joy haha.
Thanks Gerard for caring enough to answer and making me feel good that I stepped on your feet.
Op donderdag 23 maart 2023 om 16:05:23 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:
Gerard schrieb am Donnerstag, 23. März 2023 um 13:35:49 UTC+1:
Op donderdag 23 maart 2023 om 00:33:59 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:
Another genial comment by the other ridiculously overeducated dutch guy from this group...thinking about it, I should probably exchange Chopin and Scriabin with Wagner... ya... maybe even Shostakovich... anyway who caresExactly: who cares?
These comments, utterly devoid of self-reflection, triggered by feelings of animosity and resentment towards myself, always fill me with joy haha.
Thanks Gerard for caring enough to answer and making me feel good that I stepped on your feet.Haha, 2 words already is enough for a new load of cliche crud from your side.
Please go on this way.
I have to revise my favourite composers:
After thinking about Brahms I came to the conclusion that I do not need him; and this goes even more for Chopin.
1) Mozart
2) Beethoven
3) Bach, Schubert
4) Berg, Haydn, Schoenberg, Schumann (and maybe/likely? Scriabin)
The rest I really don't care about... as already said above... and I also can't get into more modern music; for me it sort of ends with Berg...
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 21:18:56 UTC+1:
I have to revise my favourite composers:
After thinking about Brahms I came to the conclusion that I do not need him; and this goes even more for Chopin.
1) Mozart
2) Beethoven
3) Bach, Schubert
4) Berg, Haydn, Schoenberg, Schumann (and maybe/likely? Scriabin)
The rest I really don't care about... as already said above... and I also can't get into more modern music; for me it sort of ends with Berg...But I only need tier 1-3, they are just most special to me and leave the others in dust... after 3) comes the biggest gap... they can't be reached, at least not for a long time, not in "this world" probably...
Maybe I'll try out other music once again... but I think not for a long time... I'll probably still listen to tier 4) for a while, but less and less so...
I have to revise my favourite composers:
Op vrijdag 24 maart 2023 om 21:18:56 UTC+1 schreef Marc S:
I have to revise my favourite composers:
Who cares?
I have to revise my favourite composers:
After thinking about Brahms I came to the conclusion that I do not need him; and this goes even more for Chopin.
1) Mozart
2) Beethoven
3) Bach, Schubert
4) Berg, Haydn, Schoenberg, Schumann (and maybe/likely? Scriabin)
The rest I really don't care about... as already said above... and I also can't get into more modern music; for me it sort of ends with Berg...
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 21:18:56 UTC+1:
I have to revise my favourite composers:
After thinking about Brahms I came to the conclusion that I do not need him; and this goes even more for Chopin.
1) Mozart
2) Beethoven
3) Bach, Schubert
4) Berg, Haydn, Schoenberg, Schumann (and maybe/likely? Scriabin)
The rest I really don't care about... as already said above... and I also can't get into more modern music; for me it sort of ends with Berg...*Another revision: I was wrong about Brahms, I should rank him tier 3 as I did before. Schumann and Haydn I don't need and Scriabin is just not to my taste (similar to Chopin and Messiaen).
1) Mozart
2) Beethoven
3) Bach, Brahms, Schubert
These are the only composers I need I guess... Haydn and Schumann just don't work for me... I mean they are fine, but they don't reach the heights of the composers I mentioned.
Furthermore, as mentioned, I really like Schoenberg and Berg, but I can't rank them above Haydn and Schumann; I think if Mozart and the other composers I mentioned didn't exist, I'd probably listen to more Haydn and Schumann...
On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 11:20:04 AM UTC, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 21:18:56 UTC+1:
I have to revise my favourite composers:
After thinking about Brahms I came to the conclusion that I do not need him; and this goes even more for Chopin.
1) Mozart
2) Beethoven
3) Bach, Schubert
4) Berg, Haydn, Schoenberg, Schumann (and maybe/likely? Scriabin)
The rest I really don't care about... as already said above... and I also can't get into more modern music; for me it sort of ends with Berg...*Another revision: I was wrong about Brahms, I should rank him tier 3 as I did before. Schumann and Haydn I don't need and Scriabin is just not to my taste (similar to Chopin and Messiaen).
1) Mozart
2) Beethoven
3) Bach, Brahms, Schubert
These are the only composers I need I guess... Haydn and Schumann just don't work for me... I mean they are fine, but they don't reach the heights of the composers I mentioned.
Furthermore, as mentioned, I really like Schoenberg and Berg, but I can't rank them above Haydn and Schumann; I think if Mozart and the other composers I mentioned didn't exist, I'd probably listen to more Haydn and Schumann...Have you heard Don Giovanni and Figaro?
*Another revision: I was wrong about Brahms, I
should rank him tier 3 as I did before. Schumann
and Haydn I don't need and Scriabin is just not to
my taste (similar to Chopin and Messiaen).
1) Mozart
2) Beethoven
3) Bach, Brahms, Schubert
Mandryka schrieb am Samstag, 25. März 2023 um 14:16:29 UTC+1:
On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 11:20:04 AM UTC, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 21:18:56 UTC+1:
I have to revise my favourite composers:
After thinking about Brahms I came to the conclusion that I do not need him; and this goes even more for Chopin.
1) Mozart
2) Beethoven
3) Bach, Schubert
4) Berg, Haydn, Schoenberg, Schumann (and maybe/likely? Scriabin)
The rest I really don't care about... as already said above... and I also can't get into more modern music; for me it sort of ends with Berg...*Another revision: I was wrong about Brahms, I should rank him tier 3 as I did before. Schumann and Haydn I don't need and Scriabin is just not to my taste (similar to Chopin and Messiaen).
1) Mozart
2) Beethoven
3) Bach, Brahms, Schubert
These are the only composers I need I guess... Haydn and Schumann just don't work for me... I mean they are fine, but they don't reach the heights of the composers I mentioned.
Is this a serious question?Furthermore, as mentioned, I really like Schoenberg and Berg, but I can't rank them above Haydn and Schumann; I think if Mozart and the other composers I mentioned didn't exist, I'd probably listen to more Haydn and Schumann...Have you heard Don Giovanni and Figaro?
On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 1:41:54 PM UTC, Marc S wrote:
Mandryka schrieb am Samstag, 25. März 2023 um 14:16:29 UTC+1:
On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 11:20:04 AM UTC, Marc S wrote:
Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 24. März 2023 um 21:18:56 UTC+1:
I have to revise my favourite composers:
After thinking about Brahms I came to the conclusion that I do not need him; and this goes even more for Chopin.
1) Mozart
2) Beethoven
3) Bach, Schubert
4) Berg, Haydn, Schoenberg, Schumann (and maybe/likely? Scriabin)
The rest I really don't care about... as already said above... and I also can't get into more modern music; for me it sort of ends with Berg...*Another revision: I was wrong about Brahms, I should rank him tier 3 as I did before. Schumann and Haydn I don't need and Scriabin is just not to my taste (similar to Chopin and Messiaen).
1) Mozart
2) Beethoven
3) Bach, Brahms, Schubert
These are the only composers I need I guess... Haydn and Schumann just don't work for me... I mean they are fine, but they don't reach the heights of the composers I mentioned.
Yes, I'm sure a couple of weeks ago you said you hadn't got a recording of them. Maybe I'm confusing you with someone else.Is this a serious question?Furthermore, as mentioned, I really like Schoenberg and Berg, but I can't rank them above Haydn and Schumann; I think if Mozart and the other composers I mentioned didn't exist, I'd probably listen to more Haydn and Schumann...Have you heard Don Giovanni and Figaro?
On Saturday, March 25, 2023 at 4:20:04 AM UTC-7, Marc S wrote:
*Another revision: I was wrong about Brahms, I
should rank him tier 3 as I did before. Schumann
and Haydn I don't need and Scriabin is just not to
my taste (similar to Chopin and Messiaen).
1) MozartWho cares about ratings! Are
2) Beethoven
3) Bach, Brahms, Schubert
you handicapping sports bets?
dk
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