• Recording contracts - who needs 'em?

    From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 12 20:38:13 2023
    I keep on getting notifications from Norman Lebrecht's 'Slipped Disc' which I normally pass by in respectful silence, but I was drawn to one which was about You Dududamel's recent appointment to the New York Phil. The article itself was the usual
    gallimaufry of sense and nonsense, but one of the reader's comments caught my eye. It claimed that orchestras have discovered that 'recording contracts can be a financial liability'.
    Is there a case for this staggering assertion, or is this perhaps special pleading? I note that only Manfred Honeck's Pittsburg band is making any records these days: at least they have a pawnshop on the corner if their finances go pearshaped ...

    Incidentally, lovers of Heinrich Schutz might like to listen to a concert currently on Arte from Les Cris de Paris. Even if you don't like Schutz, you do get some verses from the Song of Songs Already sexily whispered by a French actress, guaranteed to
    make this old man at least very happy. Actually, the only Frenchwoman I can think of who does not have a sexy voice is the mother in 'La Fille Mal Gard'ee'.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Sun Feb 12 22:14:12 2023
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 8:38:15 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    It claimed that orchestras have discovered that
    'recording contracts can be a financial liability'.

    The comment could be just random non-sense.

    Is there a case for this staggering assertion,
    or is this perhaps special pleading?

    Who knows. It all depends on how the contracts
    are written. Are minimum royalties guaranteed
    no matter how well the records sell? Otherwise,
    your guess is as good as anyone else's.

    dk

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  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Feb 12 22:45:45 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 5:14:15 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 8:38:15 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    It claimed that orchestras have discovered that
    'recording contracts can be a financial liability'.
    The comment could be just random non-sense.
    Is there a case for this staggering assertion,
    or is this perhaps special pleading?
    Who knows. It all depends on how the contracts
    are written. Are minimum royalties guaranteed
    no matter how well the records sell? Otherwise,
    your guess is as good as anyone else's.

    dk

    One of the reasons why Naxos was initially so effective was that it paid a flat fee up front. It wasn't in the millionaire range, but it was possibly better than the musicians might have expected to make in royalties. Later, there was no fee at all for
    many artists, including at least one Naxos 'regular'. They had to pay Naxos for the privilege of being recorded.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Sun Feb 12 23:08:54 2023
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 10:45:48 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 5:14:15 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 8:38:15 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    It claimed that orchestras have discovered that
    'recording contracts can be a financial liability'.

    The comment could be just random non-sense.

    Is there a case for this staggering assertion,
    or is this perhaps special pleading?

    Who knows. It all depends on how the contracts
    are written. Are minimum royalties guaranteed
    no matter how well the records sell? Otherwise,
    your guess is as good as anyone else's.

    One of the reasons why Naxos was initially so
    effective was that it paid a flat fee up front. It
    wasn't in the millionaire range, but it was possibly
    better than the musicians might have expected to
    make in royalties.

    Works for soloists or small chamber groups.
    One doubts it works for orchestras, except
    perhaps provincial orchestras in Eastern
    Europe.

    Later, there was no fee at all for many artists,
    including at least one Naxos 'regular'. They
    had to pay Naxos for the privilege of being
    recorded.

    Disgusting.

    dk

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  • From Martin Cohn@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Sun Feb 12 23:12:38 2023
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 8:38:15 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    I keep on getting notifications from Norman Lebrecht's 'Slipped Disc' which I normally pass by in respectful silence, but I was drawn to one which was about You Dududamel's recent appointment to the New York Phil. The article itself was the usual
    gallimaufry of sense and nonsense, but one of the reader's comments caught my eye. It claimed that orchestras have discovered that 'recording contracts can be a financial liability'.
    Is there a case for this staggering assertion, or is this perhaps special pleading? I note that only Manfred Honeck's Pittsburg band is making any records these days: at least they have a pawnshop on the corner if their finances go pearshaped ...


    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    The truth Andrew is that almost all classical music recordings today are subsidized. I have been astonished for years that this very salient fact has never been revealed in The Gramophone or BBC Record Review or The NYT, for that matter.

    When most of us were growing up in the 1950s, concerts helped sell recordings. Now the situation is entirely reversed as artists issue recordings to help sell tickets to their concerts. (this may be the main reason that the most obscure artists and
    recordings show up in strength on streaming services)

    Most orchestras have special funds -- bestowed by interested donors -- to underwrite recordings. In the case of individual artists, the money comes from supporters, family members and sometimes from the artists themselves.

    Martin

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Martin Cohn on Sun Feb 12 23:18:23 2023
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 11:12:40 PM UTC-8, Martin Cohn wrote:

    Most orchestras have special funds -- bestowed by
    interested donors -- to underwrite recordings. In the
    case of individual artists, the money comes from
    supporters, family members and sometimes from
    the artists themselves.

    So we're back to the 18th century? I ask the question....

    dk

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to Martin Cohn on Sun Feb 12 23:36:56 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 8:12:40 AM UTC+1, Martin Cohn wrote:


    Most orchestras have special funds -- bestowed by interested donors -- to underwrite recordings. In the case of individual artists, the money comes from supporters, family members and sometimes from the artists themselves.

    This is in many cases close to the truth.
    This topic shows it's unfortunate that people with any knowledge of the music biz, TD, Mark Stenroos, Von Bahr et al have been chased off by the loudmouth know-it-alls.
    Just look at who is spamming this topic with the usual BS.

    Also, saying the Pittsburgh orchestra is the only orchestra making recordings ('I note that only Manfred Honeck's Pittsburg band is making any records these days') is a little strange coming from Australia.
    1 both LAPhil and SFS are making recordings
    2 there are orchestras outside the USA. I know, it's weird. And those orchestras are making recordings all the time, because there's an audience in those regions.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Feb 13 00:16:45 2023
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 11:36:58 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:

    2 there are orchestras outside the USA. I know, it's weird.
    And those orchestras are making recordings all the time,
    because there's an audience in those regions.

    Send those people to the US! ;-)

    dk

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Feb 13 01:50:39 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 9:16:47 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 11:36:58 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:

    2 there are orchestras outside the USA. I know, it's weird.
    And those orchestras are making recordings all the time,
    because there's an audience in those regions.
    Send those people to the US! ;-)

    And run into racists like you?
    Do French people want to hear about escargots all the time?
    Do Germans (best orchestra infrastructure in the world) want to be called Kraut all the time?
    You're the nr 1 advertisement for people to avoid the US.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Feb 13 01:58:07 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 1:50:42 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:

    You're the nr 1 advertisement for people to avoid the US.

    More so than Donnie and MTG?

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Feb 13 02:01:53 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 1:50:42 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:

    Do Germans (best orchestra infrastructure in
    the world) want to be called Kraut all the time?

    The kraut is not a member of any orchestra.
    Reach for your pills quickly!

    dk

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  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Feb 13 02:24:30 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 6:36:58 PM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 8:12:40 AM UTC+1, Martin Cohn wrote:


    Most orchestras have special funds -- bestowed by interested donors -- to underwrite recordings. In the case of individual artists, the money comes from supporters, family members and sometimes from the artists themselves.

    This is in many cases close to the truth.
    This topic shows it's unfortunate that people with any knowledge of the music biz, TD, Mark Stenroos, Von Bahr et al have been chased off by the loudmouth know-it-alls.
    Just look at who is spamming this topic with the usual BS.

    Also, saying the Pittsburgh orchestra is the only orchestra making recordings ('I note that only Manfred Honeck's Pittsburg band is making any records these days') is a little strange coming from Australia.
    1 both LAPhil and SFS are making recordings
    2 there are orchestras outside the USA. I know, it's weird. And those orchestras are making recordings all the time, because there's an audience in those regions.

    Herman, I really meant to say the only the only US orchestra making recordings - other posts I've made here, most recently about Brahms should make it clear that I am well aware of other orchestras in the world who are making recordings, like, say, the
    Bergen Philharmonic or the Sinfonia of London. It's just that these tend to be the HIPpy ones like like Anima Eterna and Les Siecles and Pygmalion and the Orchestre des Champs-Elysees and the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment who had the audacity to
    record the two Brahms piano concertos with Andras Schiff, not to mention the London Classical Players which I bought just to spite the Tum-Tum With The Tam-Tam, or else newish ensembles like the Sinfonia of London. Largely these days I'm listening to
    ensembles with names like Les Cris de Paris or Ensemble Correspondances or Les Epop'ees or Les Ars Florissants (takes you back, doesn't it?). I've just been watching this evening a really moving performance on Arte from a church in Bern, of a 17th
    century Weihnachtgeschichte made up of a published narrator's recitativo's part plus various interludes and motets and hymns by other hands interpolated at the appropriate places, including pieces by Praetorius and Schuetz. I can't remember the name of
    the ensemble, but, with the exception of the grey-haired old organist and the lady violone player who appeared to be d'un certain age, not that it matters, they are all young musicians. This is where the green shoots are.

    And yes, I know this is rmcr but I do not feel the need to initiate a heated argument re whether the Correspondances' quinte de violon players are better than Les Epop'ees' ones, or whether the Ars Florissant's serpent player is better than Pygmalion's.
    It doesn't bother me that John Wilson is only fifty-two either: I'm only seventy-six and a half myself.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

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  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Feb 13 02:58:28 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 6:18:26 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 11:12:40 PM UTC-8, Martin Cohn wrote:

    Most orchestras have special funds -- bestowed by
    interested donors -- to underwrite recordings. In the
    case of individual artists, the money comes from
    supporters, family members and sometimes from
    the artists themselves.
    So we're back to the 18th century? I ask the question....

    dk

    That's probably not too much of an exaggeration. Those huge endowments built up over the years due to the generosity of wealthy manufacturers and bankers in NYC, Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburg etc. must be far more important now than ticket sales or
    indeed recording royalties from Columbia, far more important, perhaps, than they ever were.

    I'd reckon it's even more true of opera and ballet, with their additional costs. It's wonderful to see some of the recent productions from the ROH and Glyndebourne, but these could not exist without lotsamoney provided by the business houses and
    individuals named and thanked in the credits. The recentish production of Falstaff set in a very proper English provincial town with oh-so-typical furnishings - not to mention half a pack of Brownies - is a case in point. God knows what the price of
    admission to Glyndebourne is these days, but it can't cover the costs of these productions, or even of Danielle de Niese's spring wardrobe. But they have a reputation for engaging young and as yet unknown singers from all over the world with great
    potential but yet to make a name for themselves. And I can see them in Canberra.

    Andrew Clarke
    still in Canberra where it is raining.

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  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Martin Cohn on Mon Feb 13 02:42:16 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 6:12:40 PM UTC+11, Martin Cohn wrote:
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 8:38:15 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    I keep on getting notifications from Norman Lebrecht's 'Slipped Disc' which I normally pass by in respectful silence, but I was drawn to one which was about You Dududamel's recent appointment to the New York Phil. The article itself was the usual
    gallimaufry of sense and nonsense, but one of the reader's comments caught my eye. It claimed that orchestras have discovered that 'recording contracts can be a financial liability'.
    Is there a case for this staggering assertion, or is this perhaps special pleading? I note that only Manfred Honeck's Pittsburg band is making any records these days: at least they have a pawnshop on the corner if their finances go pearshaped ...


    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    The truth Andrew is that almost all classical music recordings today are subsidized. I have been astonished for years that this very salient fact has never been revealed in The Gramophone or BBC Record Review or The NYT, for that matter.

    When most of us were growing up in the 1950s, concerts helped sell recordings. Now the situation is entirely reversed as artists issue recordings to help sell tickets to their concerts. (this may be the main reason that the most obscure artists and
    recordings show up in strength on streaming services)

    Most orchestras have special funds -- bestowed by interested donors -- to underwrite recordings. In the case of individual artists, the money comes from supporters, family members and sometimes from the artists themselves.

    Martin

    Thank you, Martin, for this very timely, rational and well-informed contribution. I knew that Kevin Mallon had to find US$20,000 for Naxos to record his admirable set of Handel Concerti Grossi - hardly non-standard repertoire is it? - and the names of
    his sponsors are printed in the leaflet that accompanies the CDs. I had no idea that this was an almost standard procedure. It must be an advantage for a young singer/dancer/instrumentalist to turn up on the new video streaming services that are opening
    up, at least somebody outside the hall gets to see them. It would be interesting to know where John Wilson got the sponsorship for the latest manifestation of the Sinfonia of London, or where Les Siecles got the money to acquire a large warehouse full of
    19th and early 20th century French orchestral instruments ... Personally, I have nothing against private sponsorship: it can't be more erratic than the recent Arts Council decisions that appear to have killed the English National Opera.

    Speaking of seeing people, I'm a bit disappointed with the Metropolitan's streaming service. There's not much there and a lot of it is old. No doubt this will change as more new - and less 'dated' - productions become available.

    Thanks again,

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

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  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Feb 13 03:17:18 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 6:08:57 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 10:45:48 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    One of the reasons why Naxos was initially so
    effective was that it paid a flat fee up front. It
    wasn't in the millionaire range, but it was possibly
    better than the musicians might have expected to
    make in royalties.
    Works for soloists or small chamber groups.
    One doubts it works for orchestras, except
    perhaps provincial orchestras in Eastern
    Europe.

    When Naxos started up, it was able to use orchestras in Czechoslovakia (as it was then) and Hungary, minus the secret police and glamourised with Latin names like Capella Istropolitana, because the subsidies granted by the former Communist governments
    for the enlightenment of the proletariat were no longer there, and these people were glad of cash in hand, especially in U.S. dollars. Then new ensembles were created (like the Niklaus Eszterhazy Sinfonia) or discovered, like the Northern Chamber
    Orchestra in Manchester, who did some excellent Haydn for example. Then you started to get people like the Orchestre National de Lille or de Lyon - the latter with Leonard Slatkin, no less, the Royal Scottish National Orchestra, the Bournemouth Symphony
    and Sinfonietta and last but not least, the London Philharmonic who recorded a pretty good Brahms cycle under Marin Alsop. Klaus Heyman, Naxos's proprietor once said that we would be surprised at some of the glamourous names who had come knocking at his
    door, happy to accept his flat fee.

    Later, there was no fee at all for many artists,
    including at least one Naxos 'regular'. They
    had to pay Naxos for the privilege of being
    recorded.
    Disgusting.

    dk

    Naxos has always been run as a business. If the market for CDs is no longer there, it's time to move on so far as they're concerned. Their list of new releases can be eccentric - suggestive of a certain amount of vanity publishing - but they did give us
    Adam Fischer's Danish Brahms. The company now seems to make its money from its online streaming service, Naxos Music Library, which I haven't tried.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Feb 13 09:52:52 2023
    On 2/13/2023 1:14 AM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 8:38:15 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    It claimed that orchestras have discovered that
    'recording contracts can be a financial liability'.

    The comment could be just random non-sense.

    Is there a case for this staggering assertion,
    or is this perhaps special pleading?

    Who knows. It all depends on how the contracts
    are written. Are minimum royalties guaranteed
    no matter how well the records sell? Otherwise,
    your guess is as good as anyone else's.

    dk

    If there was no uncertainty there would be no need for contracts at all.

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Mon Feb 13 06:18:26 2023
    On Monday, 13 February 2023 at 10:58:31 UTC, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    Those huge endowments built up over the years due to the generosity of wealthy manufacturers and bankers in NYC, Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburg etc. must be far more important now than ticket sales or indeed recording royalties from Columbia, far more
    important, perhaps, than they ever were.
    Andrew Clarke

    Given how much I am concerned with climate change and the inaction that is putting us on the road to disaster, I am more and more hostile to wealthy companies and individuals who make a lot of their wealth by economic manipulation and feeding over-
    consumption. The gap between rich and poor has never been greater and as we get more and more famine, floods, heatwaves, water shortages, mass immigration and the rest of it, the poor will obviously be hit hardest.

    I love two of the most expensive pastimes we have - opera/symphony orchestras and golf. I've stopped eating meat, since cattle farming is a waste of resources and is destroying rain forests we need. I don't feel comfortable about classical music, though
    obviously I feel great solidarity with my fellow musicians. At least we have recordings and videos of what might turn out to be the "Golden Age" of classical music. But those doesn't compensate for live music.

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Feb 13 10:42:47 2023
    On 2/13/2023 9:18 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 13 February 2023 at 10:58:31 UTC, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    Those huge endowments built up over the years due to the generosity of wealthy manufacturers and bankers >in NYC, Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburg etc. must be far more important now than ticket sales or indeed >recording royalties from Columbia, far
    more important, perhaps, than they ever were.
    Andrew Clarke

    Given how much I am concerned with climate change and the inaction that is putting us on the road to >disaster, I am more and more hostile to wealthy companies and individuals who make a lot of their wealth >by economic manipulation and feeding over-
    consumption.

    Meaning companies and individuals who make and sell stuff that most people want. What villains!

    The gap between rich and poor has never been greater

    And yet the poor are richer than they have ever been. I care about what I have. I don't envy someone who has more. I don't even pay any attention to it.


    and as we get more and more famine, floods, heatwaves, water shortages, mass immigration and the rest of >it, the poor will obviously be hit hardest.


    Don't you think everyone will be poor, or dead?


    I love two of the most expensive pastimes we have - opera/symphony orchestras and golf. I've stopped >eating meat, since cattle farming is a waste of resources and is destroying rain forests we need.

    I've noticed that the price of meat has declined since you stopped eating it. Thank you.

    I don't feel comfortable about classical music, though obviously I feel great solidarity with my fellow musicians. At least we have recordings and videos of what might turn out to be the "Golden Age" of classical music. But those doesn't compensate for
    live music.

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Mon Feb 13 07:54:30 2023
    On Monday, 13 February 2023 at 15:42:56 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:

    Given how much I am concerned with climate change and the inaction that is putting us on the road to >disaster, I am more and more hostile to wealthy companies and individuals who make a lot of their wealth >by economic manipulation and feeding over-
    consumption.
    Meaning companies and individuals who make and sell stuff that most people want. What villains!

    Your constant mocking of climate change is weak, egotistical, tacky and completely removed from what's actually happening. It's always pointless talking to you about it because you always come up with the same pathetic avoidance tactics. Stupid people
    may not understand climate change but you're not stupid so there's no excuse. Climate change is science and fact - not some kind of mirage which you can make fun of and ignore at your convenience. Maybe you're just old and past caring.

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Feb 13 11:44:12 2023
    On 2/13/2023 10:54 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 13 February 2023 at 15:42:56 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:

    Given how much I am concerned with climate change and the inaction that is putting us on the road to >disaster, I am more and more hostile to wealthy companies and individuals who make a lot of their wealth >by economic manipulation and feeding over-
    consumption.
    Meaning companies and individuals who make and sell stuff that most people want. What villains!

    Your constant mocking of climate change is weak, egotistical, tacky and completely removed from what's actually happening. It's always pointless talking to you about it because you always come up with the same pathetic avoidance tactics. Stupid people
    may not understand climate change but you're not stupid so there's no excuse. Climate change is science and fact - not some kind of mirage which you can make fun of and ignore at your convenience. Maybe you're just old and past caring.


    Did you demonize people who make stuff that people want, or didn't you? That's what I mocked - the assignation of the problem to a bunch of scapegoats.

    Rarely do you talk about actual solutions. You just like to attack people. Did you stop eating meat because you thought it would help? Or to assuage your conscience. I would have more respect for the latter. Do you belong to and donate money to anti-
    meat groups or other causes that if grown in magnitude could make a difference? Do you campaign for appropriate political candidates? Do you donate say 10% (really the minimum standard for charity) or more (I would think more, given your passion) to the
    right places? Why not run for office yourself on a climate platform? Given your characterization of the problem I would you think you would spend every waking minute to its solution. Or is RMCR the extent of your commitment? Just wondering.

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Mon Feb 13 09:07:06 2023
    On Monday, 13 February 2023 at 16:44:21 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:

    Rarely do you talk about actual solutions. You just like to attack people.

    You have this completely the wrong way around. It's YOU that never talks about action and solutions for climate change. I'm completely talked out about solutions because I've given up on expecting the human race to find a way out of the mess they've made
    of the planet which is our one and only home. I've quoted science again and again on various forums, pointed to helpful links and so on. I'm all talked out with deaf and dumb people like you with fossilised brains incapable of adjusting to the new
    thinking needed in the years going forward.

    If you were simply stupid or ignorant I could accept that you lacked the resources to understand what's happening. But you're not. What is unforgivable is intelligent people who mock climate change and climate change activists. I find this simply
    disgusting. There's no other word for it. Just disgusting.

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  • From Pluted Pup@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Feb 13 10:08:42 2023
    On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 09:07:06 -0800, Andy Evans wrote:

    What is unforgivable is intelligent people who mock climate change and climate change activists.

    People who want to fight climate change cannot help
    but mock climate change activists. Fighting climate
    change means eradicating immigration as well as ending
    free trade.

    But climate change "activists" say the opposite, and
    make it known they intend to accelerate climate change
    bytheir actions.

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  • From Pluted Pup@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Feb 13 09:55:23 2023
    On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 06:18:26 -0800, Andy Evans wrote:

    I've stopped eating meat, since cattle farming is a waste of resources and is destroying rain forests we need.

    One thing that can be done is to ban imports of beef
    from countries with rain forests.

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  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Pluted Pup on Mon Feb 13 10:08:56 2023
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 4:55:32 AM UTC+11, Pluted Pup wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 06:18:26 -0800, Andy Evans wrote:

    I've stopped eating meat, since cattle farming is a waste of resources and is destroying rain forests we need.
    One thing that can be done is to ban imports of beef
    from countries with rain forests.

    Except for the ones on the roof, of course.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Pluted Pup on Mon Feb 13 10:04:50 2023
    On Monday, 13 February 2023 at 17:55:32 UTC, Pluted Pup wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 06:18:26 -0800, Andy Evans wrote:

    I've stopped eating meat, since cattle farming is a waste of resources and is destroying rain forests we need.
    One thing that can be done is to ban imports of beef
    from countries with rain forests.

    Yes indeed. It's high time we started sanctions on the worst climate offenders.Thanks for that.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From mswdesign@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Pluted Pup on Mon Feb 13 10:13:20 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 11:55:32 AM UTC-6, Pluted Pup wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 06:18:26 -0800, Andy Evans wrote:

    I've stopped eating meat, since cattle farming is a waste of resources and is destroying rain forests we need.
    One thing that can be done is to ban imports of beef
    from countries with rain forests.

    Do they get to export beef again once the rainforests are completely destroyed?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From mswdesign@gmail.com@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Feb 13 10:10:23 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 12:04:54 PM UTC-6, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 13 February 2023 at 17:55:32 UTC, Pluted Pup wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 06:18:26 -0800, Andy Evans wrote:

    I've stopped eating meat, since cattle farming is a waste of resources and is destroying rain forests we need.
    One thing that can be done is to ban imports of beef
    from countries with rain forests.
    Yes indeed. It's high time we started sanctions on the worst climate offenders.Thanks for that.

    But we ARE among the worst climate offenders. Even if our cars run pretty clean and we don't pollute like China or India, the US economy, due to its size - and the fact that it keeps growing - is undeniably one of the main causes of global warming. We
    aren't in a position to punish anyone.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Mon Feb 13 10:37:58 2023
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 5:08:58 AM UTC+11, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 4:55:32 AM UTC+11, Pluted Pup wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 06:18:26 -0800, Andy Evans wrote:

    I've stopped eating meat, since cattle farming is a waste of resources and is destroying rain forests we need.
    One thing that can be done is to ban imports of beef
    from countries with rain forests.
    Except for the ones on the roof, of course.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    Speaking of cows on the roof, Glyndebourne did a Poulenc double bill last year. One is 'Les Mamelles de Tiresias' and the other is the monodrame 'La Voix Humaine' with baroque diva and Offenbachian lingerie model Stephanie d'Oustrac. The director is
    Laurent Pelly. It's available - or about to be - on Glyndebourne Encore.

    I should like to mention that M. Pelly and Mme d'Oustrac are not escargots, let alone krauts. They are of course grenouilles.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

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  • From Pluted Pup@21:1/5 to mswd...@gmail.com on Mon Feb 13 10:31:44 2023
    On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 10:10:23 -0800, mswd...@gmail.com wrote:

    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 12:04:54 PM UTC-6, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 13 February 2023 at 17:55:32 UTC, Pluted Pup wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 06:18:26 -0800, Andy Evans wrote:

    I've stopped eating meat, since cattle farming is a waste of resources and is destroying rain forests we need.
    One thing that can be done is to ban imports of beef
    from countries with rain forests.
    Yes indeed. It's high time we started sanctions on the worst climate offenders.Thanks for that.

    But we ARE among the worst climate offenders. Even if our cars run pretty clean and we don't pollute like China or India, the US economy, due to its size - and the fact that it keeps growing - is undeniably one of the main causes of global warming. We
    aren't in a position to punish anyone.

    You talk like a Free Trader. Banning imports of meat help
    the countries that are being plundered by Free Trade, so it
    is a mutual benefit between the banned exporting country, us
    andthe world.

    Reducing trade and immigration is necessary to fight climate
    change.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Pluted Pup on Mon Feb 13 10:34:57 2023
    On Monday, 13 February 2023 at 18:08:52 UTC, Pluted Pup wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 09:07:06 -0800, Andy Evans wrote:

    What is unforgivable is intelligent people who mock climate change and climate change activists.
    People who want to fight climate change cannot help
    but mock climate change activists. Fighting climate
    change means eradicating immigration as well as ending
    free trade.

    But climate change "activists" say the opposite, and
    make it known they intend to accelerate climate change
    bytheir actions.

    I don't follow you here. Nothing will stop immigration in the years to come - nothing. That's a given.

    Climate scientists have many strategies they take into consideration. Free trade is one of the least helpful ideas. The USA believes in incentives, Europe believes in regulation. I'm more inclined to regulation but those who work for action on climate
    change are obliged to consider "anything that works" against the powerful corporations and lobbies supporting fossil fuels and harmful emissions. No sane climate activist is going to support counter-productive strategies. Groups supporting action on
    climate change are pretty well organised and have a number of scientists on their boards and committees.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Feb 13 14:52:51 2023
    On 2/13/2023 12:07 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 13 February 2023 at 16:44:21 UTC, Frank Berger wrote:

    Rarely do you talk about actual solutions. You just like to attack people.

    You have this completely the wrong way around. It's YOU that never talks about action and solutions for >climate change.

    I've not noticed anything from you other than policies that would put us back in the stone age. Wringing your hands that people won't give up meat is not a policy prescription. Oh, I understand your frustration. You would outlaw meat if you could. But
    you can't.


    I'm completely talked out about solutions because I've given up on expecting the human race to find a way out of the mess they've made of the planet which is our one and only home. I've quoted science again and again on various forums, pointed to helpful
    links and so on. I'm all talked out with deaf and dumb people like you with fossilised brains incapable of adjusting to the new thinking needed in the years going forward.


    Calling people deaf and dumb and accusing them of having fossilised brains is sure to win a lot of converts to your cause. Dan doesn't care if people like what he likes. But you ought to care about convincing people you are right.

    If you were simply stupid or ignorant I could accept that you lacked the resources to understand what's happening. But you're not. What is unforgivable is intelligent people who mock climate change and climate change activists.

    I only mock some statements of some climate change activists. I have never once mocked climate change itself.

    I find this simply disgusting. There's no other word for it. Just disgusting.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Feb 13 14:53:45 2023
    On 2/13/2023 1:04 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 13 February 2023 at 17:55:32 UTC, Pluted Pup wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 06:18:26 -0800, Andy Evans wrote:

    I've stopped eating meat, since cattle farming is a waste of resources and is destroying rain forests we need.
    One thing that can be done is to ban imports of beef
    from countries with rain forests.

    Yes indeed. It's high time we started sanctions on the worst climate offenders.Thanks for that.

    Have you called your Congressperson?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Herman@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Mon Feb 13 12:07:34 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 8:53:55 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:

    Have you called your Congressperson?

    I know it's incredible, but Andy is not in the US.
    He's British.
    So, his MP would be the one to call.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Feb 13 15:05:14 2023
    On 2/13/2023 1:34 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 13 February 2023 at 18:08:52 UTC, Pluted Pup wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 09:07:06 -0800, Andy Evans wrote:

    What is unforgivable is intelligent people who mock climate change and climate change activists.
    People who want to fight climate change cannot help
    but mock climate change activists. Fighting climate
    change means eradicating immigration as well as ending
    free trade.

    But climate change "activists" say the opposite, and
    make it known they intend to accelerate climate change
    bytheir actions.

    I don't follow you here. Nothing will stop immigration in the years to come - nothing. That's a given.


    Wait. What is the link between immigration and climate change? And who is trying to eliminate immigration? I'm aware of opposition to illegal immigration.

    Climate scientists have many strategies they take into consideration. Free trade is one of the least helpful ideas.

    Wrong. Free trade will contribute to poor nations becoming rich, enabling themselves to wean off of coal burning and adopting cleaner energy.

    The USA believes in incentives, Europe believes in regulation. I'm more inclined to regulation but those who work for action on climate change are obliged to consider "anything that works" against the powerful corporations and lobbies supporting fossil
    fuels and harmful emissions. No sane climate activist is going to support counter-productive strategies. Groups supporting action on climate change are pretty well organised and have a number of scientists on their boards and committees.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Feb 13 12:49:56 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 9:39:57 PM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:

    Thanks for that, Herman. I'm all talked out with Frank. You'd expect some kind of compassion and empathy for future generations but nada, nothing ever.

    I know, Andy.

    'Avoidance tactics' is a good frase.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Feb 13 12:39:54 2023
    On Monday, 13 February 2023 at 20:07:36 UTC, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 8:53:55 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:

    Have you called your Congressperson?
    I know it's incredible, but Andy is not in the US.
    He's British.

    Thanks for that, Herman. I'm all talked out with Frank. You'd expect some kind of compassion and empathy for future generations but nada, nothing ever.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Feb 13 16:32:25 2023
    On 2/13/2023 3:39 PM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Monday, 13 February 2023 at 20:07:36 UTC, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 8:53:55 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:

    Have you called your Congressperson?
    I know it's incredible, but Andy is not in the US.
    He's British.

    Thanks for that, Herman. I'm all talked out with Frank.

    LOL! You never talk to me. You lecture and call names. And when I make a point or ask a question, you ignore it.

    You'd expect some kind of compassion and empathy >for future generations but nada, nothing ever.

    You have no idea how I feel about anything. You know a little more about what I think.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Feb 13 16:43:18 2023
    On 2/13/2023 3:49 PM, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 9:39:57 PM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:

    Thanks for that, Herman. I'm all talked out with Frank. You'd expect some kind of compassion and empathy for future generations but nada, nothing ever.

    I know, Andy.

    'Avoidance tactics' is a good frase.

    Yeah, like asking what immigration has to do with climate change? And million other things I've tried to discuss that go unresponded to. It's not me doing the avoidance. You two have turned it all upside down. I don't know why your brains don't fall
    out. Or maybe they have.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Feb 13 16:30:14 2023
    On 2/13/2023 3:07 PM, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 8:53:55 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:

    Have you called your Congressperson?

    I know it's incredible, but Andy is not in the US.
    He's British.
    So, his MP would be the one to call.

    That's one of the most insightful, pertinent remarks you've ever made. Well done.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Pluted Pup@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Feb 13 13:57:47 2023
    On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 10:34:57 -0800, Andy Evans wrote:

    On Monday, 13 February 2023 at 18:08:52 UTC, Pluted Pup wrote:
    On Mon, 13 Feb 2023 09:07:06 -0800, Andy Evans wrote:

    What is unforgivable is intelligent people who mock climate change and climate change activists.
    People who want to fight climate change cannot help
    but mock climate change activists. Fighting climate
    change means eradicating immigration as well as ending
    free trade.

    But climate change "activists" say the opposite, and
    make it known they intend to accelerate climate change
    bytheir actions.

    I don't follow you here. Nothing will stop immigration in the years to come - nothing. That's a given.

    Fatalism.


    Climate scientists have many strategies they take into consideration. Free trade is one of the least helpful ideas. The USA believes in incentives, Europe believes in regulation. I'm more inclined to regulation but those who work for action on climate
    change are obliged to consider "anything that works" against the powerful corporations and lobbies supporting fossil fuels and harmful emissions. No sane climate activist is going to support counter-productive strategies. Groups supporting action on
    climate change are pretty well organised and have a number of scientists on their boards and committees.

    Climate activists are counter-productive the with their
    worship of symbolism.

    "We must abolish all immigration and trade restrictions to
    prove to the world we are all equal in the fight against
    climate change!": symbolism.

    "CDs are the products of fossil fuels so we must abolish it
    to back our efforts against climate deniers": climate change
    symbolism heard from within the music field.

    "We must pulp all our libraries and abolish the printed word
    to show the world we're serious about climate change!":
    that's climate change activism within the library science field.

    Climate change activists make up these formulations to be
    disagreeable because they don't want to be agreed with.

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  • From Todd M. McComb@21:1/5 to herstx@yahoo.com on Mon Feb 13 21:53:19 2023
    In article <5c8a11f6-7fd6-4188-a8b3-428c2cb9ac79n@googlegroups.com>,
    Herman <herstx@yahoo.com> wrote:
    'Avoidance tactics' is a good frase.

    "Derailing" is a term to know. (You yourself mentioned "what
    about-ism" a while back, as I recall... a popular form of derailing.)

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Pluted Pup on Mon Feb 13 14:32:53 2023
    On Monday, 13 February 2023 at 21:57:56 UTC, Pluted Pup wrote:
    "We must pulp all our libraries and abolish the printed word
    to show the world we're serious about climate change!":
    that's climate change activism within the library science field.

    Climate change activists make up these formulations to be
    disagreeable because they don't want to be agreed with.

    This all sounds fantastical to me - nothing to do with science, which is the basis of all climate change activism.

    I don't know where you've picked up these conspiracy theories from.

    Climate change activists want just one thing - action on climate change.

    Which is what we are not getting. Hence the activism, just like votes for women and campaigns for racial justice.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Mon Feb 13 18:42:58 2023
    On 2/13/2023 4:43 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 2/13/2023 3:49 PM, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 9:39:57 PM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:

    Thanks for that, Herman. I'm all talked out with Frank. You'd expect some kind of compassion and empathy for future generations but nada, nothing ever.

    I know, Andy.

    'Avoidance tactics' is a good frase.

    Yeah, like asking what immigration has to do with climate change?  And million other things I've tried to discuss that go unresponded to.  It's not me doing the avoidance. You two have turned it all upside down.  I don't know why your brains don't
    fall out. Or maybe they have.



    In the last days both Dan and I have produce a multitude of facts (as we understand them) about the history of "Palestine," that seriously challenges the "claim" the Palestinians have on the Land. Not one word of response from Andy. In time, he will
    repeat the slander about Israel's abuse of the Palestinians. Oh, I also described (as I understand it) the nature of the proposed Israeli judicial reform. A proposal that is entirely benign, no threat to democracy at all (quite the contrary), but that
    will reduce the political influence of the Leftist court, which explains the the hair pulling and screaming from the Left (American and Israel). What did Andy have to say about that?

    Nothing, Nada. Just called me names. But he's tired of engaging with me. LOL!

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Mon Feb 13 16:00:30 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 3:43:06 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:

    I also described (as I understand it) the nature of
    the proposed Israeli judicial reform. A proposal
    that is entirely benign, no threat to democracy
    at all (quite the contrary),

    Clearly tens of thousands of Israeli citizens
    protesting in the streets disagree with you.
    Is there anything you know that they don't?

    but that will reduce the political influence of the

    Courts exert "jurisdiction", not "influence".

    Leftist court, which explains the the hair pulling
    and screaming from the Left (American and
    Israel). What did Andy have to say about that?

    This is not a "left" vs "right" matter. It is an
    executive vs. judiciary vs. legislature matter.

    To dismiss the objections as being "politically
    motivated" misses the point completely, and
    perhaps deliberately and disingenously as well.

    Nothing, Nada. Just called me names.
    But he's tired of engaging with me. LOL!

    Never mind Andy or Herman. They have
    no skin in the game. If you believe there
    is a legitimate argument here, it is with
    a very large fraction of Israeli citizens.
    Perhaps you should engage and debate
    with them.

    The whole thing is a (not even) thinly
    veiled plot by Netanyahu to avoid jail.
    No more, no less, and nothing else.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Mon Feb 13 17:13:31 2023
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 12:43:06 AM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 2/13/2023 4:43 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 2/13/2023 3:49 PM, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 9:39:57 PM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:

    Thanks for that, Herman. I'm all talked out with Frank. You'd expect some kind of compassion and empathy for future generations but nada, nothing ever.

    I know, Andy.

    'Avoidance tactics' is a good frase.

    Yeah, like asking what immigration has to do with climate change? And million other things I've tried to discuss that go unresponded to. It's not me doing the avoidance. You two have turned it all upside down. I don't know why your brains don't
    fall out. Or maybe they have.


    Oh, I also described (as I understand it) the nature of the proposed Israeli judicial reform. A proposal that is entirely benign, no threat to democracy at all (quite the contrary), but that will reduce the political influence of the Leftist court,
    which explains the the hair pulling and screaming from the Left (American and Israel). What did Andy have to say about that?

    Nothing, Nada. Just called me names. But he's tired of engaging with me. LOL!

    As I said before, I usually don't comment on these matters, but the fact of the matter is a hundred thousand Israelis were out in the streets today protesting the above. You don't even seem to be aware of this, or rejoice in it as another way of 'owning
    the Libs'.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Mon Feb 13 16:51:10 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 10:32:35 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:

    You have no idea how I feel about anything. You know a little more about what I think.

    In the (recent) past you've said you were indifferent about the impact of climate change on your kids and grandkids. that was their business. you were 77 years old, lucky to be alive, and things would last your time.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Feb 13 17:32:10 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 4:00:33 PM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 3:43:06 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:

    I also described (as I understand it) the nature of
    the proposed Israeli judicial reform. A proposal
    that is entirely benign, no threat to democracy
    at all (quite the contrary),

    Clearly tens of thousands of Israeli citizens
    protesting in the streets disagree with you.
    Is there anything you know that they don't?

    but that will reduce the political influence of the

    Courts exert "jurisdiction", not "influence".

    Leftist court, which explains the the hair pulling
    and screaming from the Left (American and
    Israel). What did Andy have to say about that?

    This is not a "left" vs "right" matter. It is an
    executive vs. judiciary vs. legislature matter.

    To dismiss the objections as being "politically
    motivated" misses the point completely, and
    perhaps deliberately and disingenously as well.

    For clarity, the proposed judicial reform would
    allow a simple majority in the Knesset to overturn
    Supreme Court rulings. You don't see that as a
    "threat to democracy"? What part of it is "left"
    vs. "right"?

    Let us imagine for a moment Congress passed a
    law that would allow a simple majority in the House
    to overturn SCOTUS rulings. Is that OK with you? Do
    you think "we the people" in the US would approve
    of such a constitutional change?

    This simply puts politicians in power above the law.

    I ask the question ......

    dk

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Feb 13 22:38:44 2023
    On 2/13/2023 7:51 PM, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 10:32:35 PM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:

    You have no idea how I feel about anything. You know a little more about what I think.

    In the (recent) past you've said you were indifferent about the impact of climate change on your kids and >grandkids. that was their business. you were 77 years old, lucky to be alive, and things would last your >time.

    Find the quote and show it to me, if you can (you can't).

    I may have said that, in general, people's behavior is likely to be affected by such things. People care more about the present than the future (there would be no such thing as interest rates if they didn't), and though they care about their children's
    future, they may not be motivated to act drastically in the present if they are unsure of the science, or if the science itself is unsure.

    That is hardly the same thing as me expressing personal indifference.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Feb 13 22:33:04 2023
    On 2/13/2023 7:00 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 3:43:06 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:

    I also described (as I understand it) the nature of
    the proposed Israeli judicial reform. A proposal
    that is entirely benign, no threat to democracy
    at all (quite the contrary),

    Clearly tens of thousands of Israeli citizens
    protesting in the streets disagree with you.
    Is there anything you know that they don't?

    but that will reduce the political influence of the

    Courts exert "jurisdiction", not "influence".

    Leftist court, which explains the the hair pulling
    and screaming from the Left (American and
    Israel). What did Andy have to say about that?

    This is not a "left" vs "right" matter. It is an
    executive vs. judiciary vs. legislature matter.

    To dismiss the objections as being "politically
    motivated" misses the point completely, and
    perhaps deliberately and disingenously as well.

    Nothing, Nada. Just called me names.
    But he's tired of engaging with me. LOL!

    Never mind Andy or Herman. They have
    no skin in the game. If you believe there
    is a legitimate argument here, it is with
    a very large fraction of Israeli citizens.
    Perhaps you should engage and debate
    with them.

    The whole thing is a (not even) thinly
    veiled plot by Netanyahu to avoid jail.
    No more, no less, and nothing else.

    dk

    As you know, the Israeli electorate is as polarized as ours. What the Left does the Right hates, what the Right does the Left hates. As I have described, the Israeli Supreme Court is very powerful compared to those of other Western democracies. It has
    virtual veto power over all legislation. In the U.S., Scotus is constrained by the Constitution, or at least their interpretation of it - one of many checks and balances in our for of government. The Israeli SC is not so constrained. It also replaces
    its own vacancies. So if the Court comes to lean strongly (one way or the other) it will be able to perpetuate that leaning for long periods of time.

    The reform proposal is intended this correct poor design. It is the case that the Court leans heavily Left and it is the Right that wants to do the reforming. The reforms, theoretically sensible, will in fact, reduce the influence of the Left in Israel.
    Obviously, those on the Left (half of the population) don't want that, and they're demonstrating against the reforms. You can call it a power grab if you want, but is one that will enhance the Israeli democracy. It is no more a threat to democracy
    than the Left in the U.S. wanting to add justices to SCOTUS.

    That is as I understand it.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Feb 13 22:43:15 2023
    On 2/13/2023 8:13 PM, Herman wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 12:43:06 AM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 2/13/2023 4:43 PM, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 2/13/2023 3:49 PM, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 9:39:57 PM UTC+1, Andy Evans wrote:

    Thanks for that, Herman. I'm all talked out with Frank. You'd expect some kind of compassion and empathy for future generations but nada, nothing ever.

    I know, Andy.

    'Avoidance tactics' is a good frase.

    Yeah, like asking what immigration has to do with climate change? And million other things I've tried to discuss that go unresponded to. It's not me doing the avoidance. You two have turned it all upside down. I don't know why your brains don't
    fall out. Or maybe they have.


    Oh, I also described (as I understand it) the nature of the proposed Israeli judicial reform. A proposal that is entirely benign, no threat to democracy at all (quite the contrary), but that will reduce the political influence of the Leftist court,
    which explains the the hair pulling and screaming from the Left (American and Israel). What did Andy have to say about that?

    Nothing, Nada. Just called me names. But he's tired of engaging with me. LOL!

    As I said before, I usually don't comment on these matters, but the fact of the matter is a hundred thousand Israelis were out in the streets today protesting the above. You don't even seem to be aware of this, or rejoice in it as another way of '
    owning the Libs'.

    As always, you have no idea what I am aware of. In light of my own intense interest in Israel and the fact that I have close family who are Israeli, visit their twice a year and may even more there at some point, it is inconceivable that you could
    entertain the idea that I am not aware of the demonstrations. Also, I do not rejoice in polarization. Do you ever think before you speak?

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Feb 13 22:59:43 2023
    On 2/13/2023 8:32 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 4:00:33 PM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 3:43:06 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:

    I also described (as I understand it) the nature of
    the proposed Israeli judicial reform. A proposal
    that is entirely benign, no threat to democracy
    at all (quite the contrary),

    Clearly tens of thousands of Israeli citizens
    protesting in the streets disagree with you.
    Is there anything you know that they don't?

    but that will reduce the political influence of the

    Courts exert "jurisdiction", not "influence".

    Leftist court, which explains the the hair pulling
    and screaming from the Left (American and
    Israel). What did Andy have to say about that?

    This is not a "left" vs "right" matter. It is an
    executive vs. judiciary vs. legislature matter.

    To dismiss the objections as being "politically
    motivated" misses the point completely, and
    perhaps deliberately and disingenously as well.

    For clarity, the proposed judicial reform would
    allow a simple majority in the Knesset to overturn
    Supreme Court rulings. You don't see that as a
    "threat to democracy"? What part of it is "left"
    vs. "right"?

    Let us imagine for a moment Congress passed a
    law that would allow a simple majority in the House
    to overturn SCOTUS rulings. Is that OK with you? Do
    you think "we the people" in the US would approve
    of such a constitutional change?

    This simply puts politicians in power above the law.


    In the sense that "the law" is exactly the current system.

    I ask the question ......

    dk

    My initial reaction is that a simple parliamentary majority being able to overturn a SC ruling gives excessive power to the legislature. But I'm not sure. Apparently in the UK the supreme court cannot overturn legislation at all. The problem, I think,
    is that Israel has no constitution, just a vague set of "basic laws" that the Court can use to justify anything they want. I will have to think further on it.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Mon Feb 13 20:54:31 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 7:59:52 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:

    My initial reaction is that a simple
    parliamentary majority being able
    to overturn a SC ruling gives
    excessive power to the legislature.

    Taken to its logical consequence it
    gives politicians in power the ability
    to evade justice no matter what they
    do, as long as they command a simple
    majority.

    But I'm not sure. Apparently in the
    UK the supreme court cannot
    overturn legislation at all.

    That is a different problem. The
    proposal on the table in Israel is
    not about the courts overturning
    laws. It is about the parliament
    overturning the court's rulings.
    It simply puts politicians above
    the law as long as they belong
    to the party in power.

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Mon Feb 13 23:37:30 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 7:59:52 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:

    My initial reaction is that a simple parliamentary majority being able
    to overturn a SC ruling gives excessive power to the legislature.

    Can you point to any Western nation where a simple parliamentary
    majority can overturn court decisions? Or even a 2/3 majority?

    Such a concept reeks of communist and 3rd world dictatorships.

    Separation of powers between executive, legislative and judiciary
    branches is a cornerstone of democracy as understood in the US
    and in Western countries. The "judicial reform" currently on the
    table in Israel reeks of a (soft) putsch.

    dk

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Mon Feb 13 23:16:40 2023
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 4:43:24 AM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
    Also, I do not rejoice in polarization. Do you ever think before you speak?

    Yes I do, to answer your question. And hopefully I may add that these pedantic impatient and ultimately gratuitous questions have become your trademark. Well, you've got a fan in our German friend who's also always suggesting other people are lacking in
    IQ.

    About polarization, no one to my kniowledge (except of course our German friend, whom you've probably killfiled) talks about 'the Left' more than you, as an entity that has all kind of heinous plans for America - even though there isn't really a left
    in the USA. It's just a polarisation bugbear some people (on the right) need.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Herman on Tue Feb 14 00:12:48 2023
    Herman schrieb am Dienstag, 14. Februar 2023 um 08:16:42 UTC+1:
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 4:43:24 AM UTC+1, Frank Berger wrote:
    Also, I do not rejoice in polarization. Do you ever think before you speak?
    Yes I do, to answer your question. And hopefully I may add that these pedantic impatient and ultimately gratuitous questions have become your trademark. Well, you've got a fan in our German friend who's also always suggesting other people are lacking
    in IQ.

    Herman, I don't "measure" the intelligence of people; I shit on IQs. I look at how they behave morally.

    And I am not a fan of Frank, I am just no oppportunist like you are; so I'll admit that he's right (when he is right that is), even if he doesn't like me.


    About polarization, no one to my kniowledge (except of course our German friend, whom you've probably killfiled) talks about 'the Left' more than you, as an entity that has all kind of heinous plans for America - even though there isn't really a left
    in the USA. It's just a polarisation bugbear some people (on the right) need.

    At least you are still reading me. Well, I criticise the left just as I criticise the right, it's just that these days there is more to be criticised about the left; I have never seen you criticise the left, neither mswd or Andy - so who is polarizing
    here? As soon as you guys hear a conservative viewpoint (such as Ruth Wisse's), you guys go apeshit-crazy (say Dan and Andy); I only need to mention Trump, say anything good about him, and all you leftists go apeshit-crazy. Stop projecting.

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  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Herman on Tue Feb 14 01:09:20 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 6:36:58 PM UTC+11, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 8:12:40 AM UTC+1, Martin Cohn wrote:


    Most orchestras have special funds -- bestowed by interested donors -- to underwrite recordings. In the case of individual artists, the money comes from supporters, family members and sometimes from the artists themselves.

    This is in many cases close to the truth.
    This topic shows it's unfortunate that people with any knowledge of the music biz, TD, Mark Stenroos, Von Bahr et al have been chased off by the loudmouth know-it-alls.
    Just look at who is spamming this topic with the usual BS.

    Also, saying the Pittsburgh orchestra is the only orchestra making recordings ('I note that only Manfred Honeck's Pittsburg band is making any records these days') is a little strange coming from Australia.
    1 both LAPhil and SFS are making recordings
    2 there are orchestras outside the USA. I know, it's weird. And those orchestras are making recordings all the time, because there's an audience in those regions.

    The last I heard, the only people making records in LA were the LAPD but I will investigate further. I looked up the SFSO on Presto Music and found that yes, there were some recent issues put out by SFS Media, which presumably is the West Coast
    equivalent of LSO records and Hall'e, which is a good way to go in my opinion. Others were old Decca recordings which had been reissued as Presto CDs, presumably with the blessings of Decca. A lot of these recordings are either MTT or Blomstedt.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Tue Feb 14 02:04:14 2023
    On Tuesday, 14 February 2023 at 00:00:33 UTC, Dan Koren wrote:

    Never mind Andy or Herman. They have
    no skin in the game. > dk

    Indeed not. I just observe the recent behaviour of the State of Israel and come to the same critical conclusions as many others do.

    I have always said and continue to say that I follow the science. That informs everything I think and say about climate change.

    If it were a case of understanding the origins of the Jewish people I would do exactly the same and look at the genetic science. Wiki has the following:

    Despite extensive efforts[16] in recent decades to identify genotypic common denominators that might be associated with Biblical Israelites, it has become "overwhelmingly clear", as noted by Raphael Falk, that while detectable genetic continuity exists
    in Jewish populations across generations, "there is no Jewish genotype to identify" and "genetic markers cannot determine Jewish descent".[17][18]

    This is inconvenient to Jewish historians like Simon Shama who won't accept the science. But the science stands and there have been several studies of this.

    Since I am a rational person that follows evidence based studies I would believe in this order:
    1. Science
    2. Historians
    3. Religious documents and beliefs

    Make of that what you will, but if you are arguing with me you are arguing with the science, so please understand that. And please excuse me if I have no interest whatever in answering all the usual provocations that flood newsgroups like this. I may
    make the odd comment from time to time but I am not interested in adding anything beyond that, so don't expect it.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Tue Feb 14 03:02:15 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 14. Februar 2023 um 08:37:33 UTC+1:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 7:59:52 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:

    My initial reaction is that a simple parliamentary majority being able
    to overturn a SC ruling gives excessive power to the legislature.
    Can you point to any Western nation where a simple parliamentary
    majority can overturn court decisions? Or even a 2/3 majority?

    Such a concept reeks of communist and 3rd world dictatorships.

    Separation of powers between executive, legislative and judiciary
    branches is a cornerstone of democracy as understood in the US
    and in Western countries. The "judicial reform" currently on the
    table in Israel reeks of a (soft) putsch.

    dk

    Dan, you are completely brainwashed, and you have no idea about politics (be it in the USA or Israel).

    "**It is, as the press is now screaming in Israel and outside it, a struggle over soul of Israel’s democracy. Only the press has got it backwards. Yariv Levin, Netanyahu’s new justice minister, is not out to destroy democracy. He is out to restore it.
    **"

    "The Israeli election in November was, in large part, a referendum on the Netanyahu trial. The jury came back with a clear verdict: not guilty. Israelis, or at least enough of them, became convinced that the trial was a political affair, not a legal one:
    Israel’s left-leaning elites had given up on beating Netanyahu at the ballot box, and so turned to other means to expel him from politics.

    But the majority of Israel’s voters did more than acquit Netanyahu in the court of public opinion. A majority of Israeli voters made clear that they will no longer put up with the hollowing out of Israel’s democracy by the administrative state—
    judges, law enforcement officers, legal advisers and the bureaucracy in general will have to stop substituting their own preferences and dictates for those of the Israeli electorate.

    The Netanyahu trial and bottom-up demands for judicial reform have thus melded together into a hugely consequential showdown between patricians and plebs, between the old elites and the public at large, between the court and the elected branches of
    government—and at root, between the power of the administrative state and democratic politics. It is, as the press is now screaming in Israel and outside it, a struggle over soul of Israel’s democracy. Only the press has got it backwards. Yariv Levin,
    Netanyahu’s new justice minister, is not out to destroy democracy. He is out to restore it."

    Read the rest here: https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/struggle-israel-democracy-netanyahu-supreme-court

    Go cry Dan... that is what you can do so well, that is what the left can do so well.

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Tue Feb 14 09:20:08 2023
    On 2/14/2023 5:04 AM, Andy Evans wrote:
    On Tuesday, 14 February 2023 at 00:00:33 UTC, Dan Koren wrote:

    Never mind Andy or Herman. They have
    no skin in the game. > dk

    Indeed not. I just observe the recent behaviour of the State of Israel and come to the same critical conclusions as many others do.

    I have always said and continue to say that I follow the science. That informs everything I think and say about climate change.

    If it were a case of understanding the origins of the Jewish people I would do exactly the same and look at the genetic science. Wiki has the following:

    Despite extensive efforts[16] in recent decades to identify genotypic common denominators that might be associated with Biblical Israelites, it has become "overwhelmingly clear", as noted by Raphael Falk, that while detectable genetic continuity exists
    in Jewish populations across generations, "there is no Jewish genotype to identify" and "genetic markers cannot determine Jewish descent".[17][18]

    This is inconvenient to Jewish historians like Simon Shama who won't accept the science. But the science stands and there have been several studies of this.

    Since I am a rational person that follows evidence based studies I would believe in this order:
    1. Science
    2. Historians
    3. Religious documents and beliefs

    Make of that what you will, but if you are arguing with me you are arguing with the science, so please >understand that. And please excuse me if I have no interest whatever in answering all the usual >provocations that flood newsgroups like this. I may
    make the odd comment from time to time but I am not >interested in adding anything beyond that, so don't expect it.

    You make odd comments quite often.

    The question of the genetic history of a Jew, or Jews, or the Jews people is a red herring in the first place. The Jewish people are defined by their history, not their genetics. How could a convert be fully accepted as Jewish (they are) if genetics
    mattered. It is irrelevant. Sure there are some people who want there to be a clear genetic history, but they are misguided. It doesn't matter. Are the "French" genetically alike, Americans? Please.

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  • From mINE109@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Tue Feb 14 09:55:46 2023
    On 2/14/23 3:09 AM, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    The last I heard, the only people making records in LA were the LAPD but I will investigate further.

    https://www.pacificsymphony.org/about_us/discography

    Casting the net wider:

    https://www.sandiegosymphony.org/about-the-sdso/gift-shop/symphony-cds/

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  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Martin Cohn on Wed Feb 15 20:20:11 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 6:12:40 PM UTC+11, Martin Cohn wrote:

    The truth Andrew is that almost all classical music recordings today are subsidized. I have been astonished for years that this very salient fact has never been revealed in The Gramophone or BBC Record Review or The NYT, for that matter.

    When most of us were growing up in the 1950s, concerts helped sell recordings. Now the situation is entirely reversed as artists issue recordings to help sell tickets to their concerts. (this may be the main reason that the most obscure artists and
    recordings show up in strength on streaming services)

    Most orchestras have special funds -- bestowed by interested donors -- to underwrite recordings. In the case of individual artists, the money comes from supporters, family members and sometimes from the artists themselves.


    Martin, I think Big Dave Hurwitz has read your post. He has, predictably, released a denunciation of John Wilson and the Sinfonia of L*nd*n, to which an admirer - he has many - has added a comment that questions why Chandos would want to keep recording
    such an appalling orchestra under a conductor who's only good enough for film music and show tunes. To which, the Tum with the Tam-Tam replies darkly that it's all down to money, because you don't get recorded these days unless you have money up-front.
    Well, perhaps Mr Wilson's been able to get money out of Russian oligarchs or international drug smuggling rings, or maybe he has not. We might point out that the Top Five orchestras in America have been kept going by donations and legacies from wealth
    families like Mrs Rittenhouse virtually since they were founded, as do other orchestras and opera houses except those maintained by the state.
    Mr Hurwitz complains that he can't hear the rowing noises at the beginning of The Isle of the Dead. That must be like "On The Trail" when you can't hear the clippety-clop noises, I suppose ...

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

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