Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?bandwagon are not amenable to rational argument.
It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable, but I'm afraid that many of the people jumping on this particular
Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under
every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?
It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical
music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired
yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,
No - the real question is how long it will take for RMCR denizens
to start arguing about the different versions of light bulbs?
So many questions...but I am confident that folks here could have an illuminating discussion in a flash.. but only after I get a crowd to
turn the house while i make sure the bulb is held still...
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:
Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism underAntisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-)
every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?
It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classicalFor 2000 years now ..... ?!?
music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired
yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,
dk
Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?
It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable, but I'm afraid that many of the people jumping on this particularbandwagon are not amenable to rational argument.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 16:21:00 -0800, Andrew Clarke wrote:particular bandwagon are not amenable to rational argument.
Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?
It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable, but I'm afraid that many of the people jumping on this
Warriors against antisemitism won't stop. So you'll have to
come up with something antisemitic to please them.
On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:12:08 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:who is Jewish in particular does not necessarily imply a dislike of Jews in general.
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:
Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism underAntisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-)
every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?
It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classicalFor 2000 years now ..... ?!?
music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired
yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,
dkSimple issue of logic. (a) People who don't like Jews necessarily won't like the state of Israel. But people who don't like the state of Israel do not necessarily dislike Jews, indeed quite a few of them are Jewish themselves. (b) To dislike someone
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:12:08 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:
Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under
every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?
Antisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-)
It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical
music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired
yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,
For 2000 years now ..... ?!?
Simple issue of logic. (a) People who don't like Jews necessarily won't
like the state of Israel. But people who don't like the state of Israel do not necessarily dislike Jews, indeed quite a few of them are Jewish themselves. (b) To dislike someone who is Jewish in particular does
not necessarily imply a dislike of Jews in general.
... there are a lot of people who don't like Jews, but do like the
state of Israel ....
In article <773ab92f-6d0e-4ead...@googlegroups.com>,
James Goodzeit <james.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
... there are a lot of people who don't like Jews, but do like the
state of Israel ....
Indeed.
On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:12:08 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:
Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism underAntisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-)
every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?
It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classicalFor 2000 years now ..... ?!?
music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired
yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,
dkSimple issue of logic. (a) People who don't like Jews necessarily won't like the state of Israel. But people who don't like the state of Israel do not necessarily dislike Jews, indeed quite a few of them are Jewish themselves.
(b) To dislike someone who is Jewish in particular does not necessarily imply a dislike of Jews in general.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 9:03:29 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:
On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:12:08 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:
Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under
every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?
Antisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-)
It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,
For 2000 years now ..... ?!?
Simple issue of logic. (a) People who don't like Jews necessarily won't like the state of Israel. But people who don't like the state of Israel do not necessarily dislike Jews, indeed quite a few of them are Jewish themselves. (b) To dislike someone who is Jewish in particular doesNot so fast. Numbers matter. What about people who dislike a large
not necessarily imply a dislike of Jews in general.
number of Jews without hypotethically not disliking Jews in general?
In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice, they are not.
You don't seem to understand the fact that anti-semitism, as all other
kinds of racism, is not a black or white matter. It comes in degrees
and with nuances.
At the extreme end of the scale there is state anti-semitism, such as
in Germany or in Russia, or in medieval Europe, with explicit laws that restrict the rights of Jewsish population, limit where they cam live or
what they can do, etc...
Just below state anti-semitism there is political anti-semitism, such
as political parties or other organizations promoting anti-semitic
agendas openly, or discriminating against Jewish individuals or institutions.
Left unchecked, political anti-semitism can easily evolve into
state anti-semitism -- exactly what happened in Germany and
to a lesser degree in Russia.
Social and cultural anti-semitism are less obvious and harder
to detect -- e.g. Ivy League and British universities artificially
limiting the number of Jewish students (sometimes other
races too), the Vienna Philharmonic not including Jewish
players, and so on.
More shades and nuances appear at individul level, e.g.
people who believe they are not anti-semites but would
never allow their sons or daughters to date (let alone
marry) Jewish people.
dk
More shades and nuances appear at individul level, e.g.
people who believe they are not anti-semites but would
never allow their sons or daughters to date (let alone
marry) Jewish people.
dk
Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 07:07:47 UTC+1:
Social and cultural anti-semitism are less obvious and harder
to detect -- e.g. Ivy League and British universities artificially
limiting the number of Jewish students (sometimes other
races too), the Vienna Philharmonic not including Jewish
players, and so on.
This is some conspirational nonsense without providing evidence.
Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 07:07:47 UTC+1:
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 9:03:29 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:
On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:12:08 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:
Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under
every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?
Antisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-)
It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,
For 2000 years now ..... ?!?
Simple issue of logic. (a) People who don't like Jews necessarily won't like the state of Israel. But people who don't like the state of Israel doNot so fast. Numbers matter. What about people who dislike a large
not necessarily dislike Jews, indeed quite a few of them are Jewish themselves. (b) To dislike someone who is Jewish in particular does
not necessarily imply a dislike of Jews in general.
number of Jews without hypotethically not disliking Jews in general?
Dan, you really need to learn to read; your response does not make any sense. Andrew never said that numbers didn't matter.
In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice, they are not.
We shit on your "expertise" wrt to antisemitism. In theory I think Jews would know what antisemitism is, in practice unfortunately, as exemplified by your highness, they do not.
You don't seem to understand the fact that anti-semitism, as all other kinds of racism, is not a black or white matter. It comes in degrees
and with nuances.
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 11:00:34 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 07:07:47 UTC+1:
Social and cultural anti-semitism are less obvious and harder
to detect -- e.g. Ivy League and British universities artificially limiting the number of Jewish students (sometimes other
races too), the Vienna Philharmonic not including Jewish
players, and so on.
This is some conspirational nonsense without providing evidence.You are completely brainfucked and deranged. The Harvard
Jewish admissions numerus clausus scandals during the
1930s and 1970s made literally hundreds of headlines
and were amply researched and fully documented, as
was the Asian admissions scandal in the 2000s.
You probably don't read anything except Kant, Adorno,
JP and r.m.c.r.
dk
On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 23:00:31 -0800, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 07:07:47 UTC+1:
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 9:03:29 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:
On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:12:08 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:
Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?
Antisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-)
It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,
For 2000 years now ..... ?!?
Simple issue of logic. (a) People who don't like Jews necessarily won't like the state of Israel. But people who don't like the state of Israel doNot so fast. Numbers matter. What about people who dislike a large
not necessarily dislike Jews, indeed quite a few of them are Jewish themselves. (b) To dislike someone who is Jewish in particular does
not necessarily imply a dislike of Jews in general.
number of Jews without hypotethically not disliking Jews in general?
Dan, you really need to learn to read; your response does not make any sense. Andrew never said that numbers didn't matter.
In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice, they are not.
We shit on your "expertise" wrt to antisemitism. In theory I think Jews would know what antisemitism is, in practice unfortunately, as exemplified by your highness, they do not.
There are no degrees. There are only two types of people inYou don't seem to understand the fact that anti-semitism, as all other kinds of racism, is not a black or white matter. It comes in degrees
and with nuances.
the world, Jews and antisemites. Jews are depriving non-Jews
of the antisemitism needed to survive, an injustice.
The only thing you can do is to call off the war onantisemitism.
Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 08:08:07 UTC+1:
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 11:00:34 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 07:07:47 UTC+1:
Social and cultural anti-semitism are less obvious and harder
to detect -- e.g. Ivy League and British universities artificially limiting the number of Jewish students (sometimes other
races too), the Vienna Philharmonic not including Jewish
players, and so on.
This is some conspirational nonsense without providing evidence.You are completely brainfucked and deranged. The Harvard
Jewish admissions numerus clausus scandals during the
1930s and 1970s made literally hundreds of headlines
and were amply researched and fully documented, as
was the Asian admissions scandal in the 2000s.
You really need to learn to read as I said above.
I did explicitly say that I am not saying that there are no
antisemitic sentiments on western campuses, just that
the way you presented it was reminiscent of how
conspirational theorists present their screwed
world view.
I asked you to provide evidence to prove what you are
saying. Your words are meaningless without facts. Why
should people believe you when you don't provide facts;
I thought you were against believing blindly, obviously
you aren't. You are no authority on this matter, you are
just the loser from RMCR who hates himself.
You probably don't read anything except Kant, Adorno,
JP and r.m.c.r.
I read Ruth Wisse as opposed to you, and a lot of other things.
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 11:15:32 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 08:08:07 UTC+1:
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 11:00:34 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 07:07:47 UTC+1:
Social and cultural anti-semitism are less obvious and harder
to detect -- e.g. Ivy League and British universities artificially limiting the number of Jewish students (sometimes other
races too), the Vienna Philharmonic not including Jewish
players, and so on.
This is some conspirational nonsense without providing evidence.You are completely brainfucked and deranged. The Harvard
Jewish admissions numerus clausus scandals during the
1930s and 1970s made literally hundreds of headlines
and were amply researched and fully documented, as
was the Asian admissions scandal in the 2000s.
You really need to learn to read as I said above.
I did explicitly say that I am not saying that there are no
antisemitic sentiments on western campuses, just that
the way you presented it was reminiscent of how
conspirational theorists present their screwed
world view.
I asked you to provide evidence to prove what you areThe events I mentioned are well known and thoroughly
saying. Your words are meaningless without facts. Why
should people believe you when you don't provide facts;
I thought you were against believing blindly, obviously
you aren't. You are no authority on this matter, you are
just the loser from RMCR who hates himself.
documented. They don't need any more "proof". You
can google, can you? Or search other sources? This
is not a legal proceeding.
You probably don't read anything except Kant, Adorno,
JP and r.m.c.r.
I read Ruth Wisse as opposed to you, and a lot of other things.Even worse. Ruth Wisse is a bigoted retarded hyper
conservative ultra reactionary Canadian shtetl girl
whose dream is for the Jewish people to return to
the Middle Ages. It won't happen. She knows it.
You know it. And so does everybody else.
If you are so obsessed with Judaism why don't you
convert, move to Israel, move in with the Hassidim
in Mea She'arim, spend all your time praying and
licking the boots and sucking up to the rabbis.
Stop fucking other people's brains -- fuck yours
first. You are an excrement!
dk
Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?
Andrew Clarke
On Saturday, 11 February 2023 at 00:21:03 UTC, Andrew Clarke wrote:garbage which simply goes on and on and on.
Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?
Andrew Clarke
You are absolutely right, of course. There are those of us who are outraged by the recent behaviour of the State of Israel and while it is sometimes hard to contain such feelings, the threads on this newsgroup have been hijacked by a lot of lies and
It's been said many, many times - DON'T FEED THE TROLLS
On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 12:03:29 AM UTC-5, Andrew Clarke wrote:who is Jewish in particular does not necessarily imply a dislike of Jews in general.
On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:12:08 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:Simple issue of logic. (a) People who don't like Jews necessarily won't like the state of Israel. But people who don't like the state of Israel do not necessarily dislike Jews, indeed quite a few of them are Jewish themselves. (b) To dislike someone
Antisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-) >>>> It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical
Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under
every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?
music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being airedFor 2000 years now ..... ?!?
yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,
dk
Israel as part of his plan for the world.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
In your logic, (a) isn't necessarily the case, as there are a lot of people who don't like Jews, but do like the state of Israel because they either hate Muslims even more or they are white Evangelical Christians who believe God created the state of
On Fri, 10 Feb 2023, James Goodzeit wrote:who is Jewish in particular does not necessarily imply a dislike of Jews in general.
On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 12:03:29 AM UTC-5, Andrew Clarke wrote:
On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:12:08 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote: >>>>Simple issue of logic. (a) People who don't like Jews necessarily won't like the state of Israel. But people who don't like the state of Israel do not necessarily dislike Jews, indeed quite a few of them are Jewish themselves. (b) To dislike someone
Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism underFor 2000 years now ..... ?!?
every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately? >>> Antisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-) >>>> It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical
music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired >>>> yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,
dk
Israel as part of his plan for the world.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
In your logic, (a) isn't necessarily the case, as there are a lot of people who don't like Jews, but do like the state of Israel because they either hate Muslims even more or they are white Evangelical Christians who believe God created the state of
Precisely. And I would add that some of the most dangerous
anti-semites are in that category. They by no means wish Jews
well.
Was it Andrew or someone else who pointed out that
anti-semitism and anti-Zionism are two intersecting circles?
A Venn (but not necessarily Zen) diagram.
--
Al Eisner
On Fri, 10 Feb 2023, James Goodzeit wrote:who is Jewish in particular does not necessarily imply a dislike of Jews in general.
On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 12:03:29 AM UTC-5, Andrew Clarke wrote: >>> On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:12:08 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote: >>>>>Simple issue of logic. (a) People who don't like Jews necessarily won't like the state of Israel. But people who don't like the state of Israel do not necessarily dislike Jews, indeed quite a few of them are Jewish themselves. (b) To dislike someone
Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism underFor 2000 years now ..... ?!?
every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately? >>>> Antisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-) >>>>> It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical
music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired
yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,
dk
Israel as part of his plan for the world.
Andrew Clarke
Canberra
In your logic, (a) isn't necessarily the case, as there are a lot of people who don't like Jews, but do like the state of Israel because they either hate Muslims even more or they are white Evangelical Christians who believe God created the state of
Precisely. And I would add that some of the most dangerous
anti-semites are in that category. They by no means wish Jews
well.
Was it Andrew or someone else who pointed out that
anti-semitism and anti-Zionism are two intersecting circles?
A Venn (but not necessarily Zen) diagram.
If Jews themselves hold Zionism dear to their hearts and indeed an essential part of their religion, then why is a person who doesn't hate Jews but denies the validity of Zionism (I am not talking simple criticism of a particular Israeli government -that is a different issue), not to be considered antisemitic?
Op zondag 12 februari 2023 om 15:23:31 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:that is a different issue), not to be considered antisemitic?
If Jews themselves hold Zionism dear to their hearts and indeed an essential part of their religion, then why is a person who doesn't hate Jews but denies the validity of Zionism (I am not talking simple criticism of a particular Israeli government -
Coming from you, this is an honest question. I'll answer you in the same vein, and strictly for myself.
First of all, I'm not sure what you mean by: denying "the validity of Zionism". What does it imply? Is it >denying Jews their own state, where they can be themselves, and at least as important, can defend >themselves against aggressors?
Is it denying Jews to found this state in Palestinian territory, without the consent and cooperation of >the original population? Or is it criticism of what comes after that, and in particular the how of it?
Would you call this last category also anti-Zionist?
Henk
On 2/12/2023 10:24 AM, HT wrote:that is a different issue), not to be considered antisemitic?
Op zondag 12 februari 2023 om 15:23:31 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:
If Jews themselves hold Zionism dear to their hearts and indeed an essential part of their religion, then why is a person who doesn't hate Jews but denies the validity of Zionism (I am not talking simple criticism of a particular Israeli government -
Coming from you, this is an honest question. I'll answer you in the same vein, and strictly for myself.
First of all, I'm not sure what you mean by: denying "the validity of Zionism". What does it imply? Is it >denying Jews their own state, where they can be themselves, and at least as important, can defend >themselves against aggressors?Of course, that is the definition of anti-Zionism.
Is it denying Jews to found this state in Palestinian territory, without the consent and cooperation of >the original population? Or is it criticism of what comes after that, and in particular the how of it?Not necessarily.
Would you call this last category also anti-Zionist?
Not as anti-Zionist as the basic definition.
Like I said, it's in the eye of the beholder.
On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:12:08 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:who is Jewish in particular does not necessarily imply a dislike of Jews in general.
On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:
Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism underAntisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-)
every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?
It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classicalFor 2000 years now ..... ?!?
music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired
yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,
dkSimple issue of logic. (a) People who don't like Jews necessarily won't like the state of Israel. But people who don't like the state of Israel do not necessarily dislike Jews, indeed quite a few of them are Jewish themselves. (b) To dislike someone
Andrew ClarkeAs you are undoubtedly aware Jesus was a Jew, as was his mother, and was her mother. Miracles of any sort being unnecessary.
Canberra
Is it denying Jews to found this state in Palestinian territory,
without the consent and cooperation of the original population?
On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 7:24:45 AM UTC-8, HT wrote:
Is it denying Jews to found this state in Palestinian territory,
without the consent and cooperation of the original population?
What is/was "the original population"? There has been continued
Jewish presence in what you describe as "Palestinian territory"
since the 12th century BC -- including during times when there
was no Jewish state. The Arabs did not occupy Palestine until
the 6th or 7th century AD -- and they came from elsewhere.
If you are suggesting the land belongs to the "original population",
then it clearly belongs to the Jewish people before any other group
can claim it.
You really need to revisit your history.
dk
On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 7:24:45 AM UTC-8, HT wrote:
Is it denying Jews to found this state in Palestinian territory,
without the consent and cooperation of the original population?
What is/was "the original population"? There has been continued
Jewish presence in what you describe as "Palestinian territory"
since the 12th century BC -- including during times when there
was no Jewish state. The Arabs did not occupy Palestine until
the 6th or 7th century AD -- and they came from elsewhere.
If you are suggesting the land belongs to the "original population",
then it clearly belongs to the Jewish people before any other group
can claim it.
You really need to revisit your history.
dk
I am no Christian (even though I respect the Bible);
my passport says I'm Christian for reasons of
convenience.
On 2/12/2023 4:51 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 7:24:45 AM UTC-8, HT wrote:
Is it denying Jews to found this state in Palestinian territory,
without the consent and cooperation of the original population?
What is/was "the original population"? There has been continued
Jewish presence in what you describe as "Palestinian territory"
since the 12th century BC -- including during times when there
was no Jewish state. The Arabs did not occupy Palestine until
the 6th or 7th century AD -- and they came from elsewhere.
If you are suggesting the land belongs to the "original population",
then it clearly belongs to the Jewish people before any other group
can claim it.
You really need to revisit your history.
Someone will likely mention the circa 1900 census that showed
around 400,000 Arabs living in Palestine. They will also likely omit
they were almost entirely living in the area of then-Palestine that
become Jordan. Jordan is already more than 3/4 the land area of
"Palestine." Another inconvenient fact.
On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 1:43:38 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
I am no Christian (even though I respect the Bible);As far as one can tell, German passports do not
my passport says I'm Christian for reasons of
convenience.
list the bearer's religion:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Mustermann_Reisepass_2017.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Mustermann_Reisepass_2007.jpg
Neither do any other European or North American
passports. Israeli passports do not list the bearer's
religion either.
This implies you either carry the passport of some
medieval nation that does not care about putting its
citizens at risk by listing religion on their passports,
and/or you are lying about being German. Is this
what you learned from Kant and Adorno?
dk
On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 1:43:38 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
I am no Christian (even though I respect the Bible);As far as one can tell, German passports do not
my passport says I'm Christian for reasons of
convenience.
list the bearer's religion:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Mustermann_Reisepass_2017.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Mustermann_Reisepass_2007.jpg
Neither do any other European or North American
passports. Israeli passports do not list the bearer's
religion either.
This implies you either carry the passport of some
medieval nation that does not care about putting its
citizens at risk by listing religion on their passports,
and/or you are lying about being German. Is this
what you learned from Kant and Adorno?
dk
If you are suggesting the land belongs to the "original population",
then it clearly belongs to the Jewish people before any other group
can claim it.
You really need to revisit your history.
How about a quick check of what the Dutch
did in Indonesia and in South Africa?
Op zondag 12 februari 2023 om 22:51:20 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:
If you are suggesting the land belongs to the "original population",
then it clearly belongs to the Jewish people before any other group
can claim it.
You really need to revisit your history.
No need. I was once well-versed in Middle Eastern history. It was
more than half a century ago, but I have not forgotten the headlines.
Of course, we can argue about the "original" population and to whom
the land once "belonged". Perhaps an interesting history lesson, and
at least a boost for the legal minds among us.
In my opinion, it would not do justice to the fact that: 1. Zionism was
the answer to a problem (autonomy, security) that needed solving
more urgently than ever, and 2. the Promised Land was the only
place all could call home thanks to a shared tradition.
To deny (to paraphrase Frank) 1. and 2. is, in my view, anti-Zionist.
These points cannot be separated - whatever the consequences.
I think the real discussion is about 3.: how to deal with the consequences.
Initially, I trusted that the women and men who once formed the
backbone of Western (in particular German) civilization would
steer the ship of state in the right direction after solving the
initial problems.
I lost that confidence after Rabin's assassination. Since then,
I have been more critical than I was, and in my opinion with
good reason.
Op zondag 12 februari 2023 om 22:51:20 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:
If you are suggesting the land belongs to the "original population",
then it clearly belongs to the Jewish people before any other group
can claim it.
You really need to revisit your history.
No need. I was once well-versed in Middle Eastern history. It was
more than half a century ago, but I have not forgotten the headlines.
Of course, we can argue about the "original" population and to whom
the land once "belonged". Perhaps an interesting history lesson, and
at least a boost for the legal minds among us.
In my opinion, it would not do justice to the fact that: 1. Zionism was
the answer to a problem (autonomy, security) that needed solving
more urgently than ever, and 2. the Promised Land was the only
place all could call home thanks to a shared tradition.
To deny (to paraphrase Frank) 1. and 2. is, in my view, anti-Zionist.
These points cannot be separated - whatever the consequences.
I think the real discussion is about 3.: how to deal with the consequences.
Initially, I trusted that the women and men who once formed the
backbone of Western (in particular German) civilization would
steer the ship of state in the right direction after solving the
initial problems.
I lost that confidence after Rabin's assassination. Since then,
I have been more critical than I was, and in my opinion with
good reason.
On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 2:36:12 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
No, we cannot argue. These are
verifiable, measurable, historical
facts.
Says Putin about occupying Ukraine,
which has never existed, according
to his facts.
No, we cannot argue. These are verifiable, measurable, historical facts.
On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 6:41:36 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 2:36:12 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
No, we cannot argue. These are
verifiable, measurable, historical
facts.
Says Putin about occupying Ukraine,
which has never existed, according
to his facts.
You have now shown your true
colors as a rabid,
You are a cultural and social anti-semite. Case closed.
No need. I was once well-versed in Middle Eastern history. It was more than half a century ago, but I have not forgotten the headlines.
Initially, I trusted that the women and men who once formed the backbone of Western (in particular German) civilization would steer the ship of state in the right direction after solving the initial problems. I lost that confidence after Rabin'sassassination. Since then, I have been more critical than I was, and in my opinion with good reason.
Henk
On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 2:36:12 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
No, we cannot argue. These are verifiable, measurable, historical facts.
Says Putin about occupying Ukraine, which has never existed, according to his facts.
Also, it is somewhat ironic to use 'the Torah and the Gospels' as a factual, historical account, especially after all you've said about 'rabies' and the like. It's your usual opportunistic talking out of both sides of your mouth, as long as you get tocal people antisemite.
I suggest using these same books to challenge geology and evolution.
On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 3:50:16 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 6:41:36 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 2:36:12 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
No, we cannot argue. These are
verifiable, measurable, historical
facts.
Says Putin about occupying Ukraine,
which has never existed, according
to his facts.
You have now shown your trueNo I'm not. You are the rabid racist here, and you've brought a couple of crazy mouth-foaming racists here after you turned RMCR into a racist free for all.
colors as a rabid,
All I did was point out that these "historical facts" are problematic in a world of constant migration and overpopulation and its concomitant competition for, shall we say, Lebensraum.
On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 4:06:04 PM UTC-8, HT wrote:
Op zondag 12 februari 2023 om 22:51:20 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:
If you are suggesting the land belongs to the "original population", then it clearly belongs to the Jewish people before any other group
can claim it.
You really need to revisit your history.
No need. I was once well-versed in Middle Eastern history. It wasHistory is not defined by "headlines".
more than half a century ago, but I have not forgotten the headlines.
Of course, we can argue about the "original" population and to whomNo, we cannot argue. These are verifiable, measurable, historical facts.
the land once "belonged". Perhaps an interesting history lesson, and
at least a boost for the legal minds among us.
The Jewish people are the only people still in existance who inhabited
the land of Israel in historical times. There were of course other people who lived there earlier in ancient times (e.g. Canaanites or Phoenicians) who then disappeared from history and are no longer around. The Arabs started to move into "Palestine" in the 6th century AD,
In my opinion, it would not do justice to the fact that: 1. Zionism was the answer to a problem (autonomy, security) that needed solvingTotal non-sequitur. Zionism does not change historical facts. Your
more urgently than ever, and 2. the Promised Land was the only
place all could call home thanks to a shared tradition.
second argument is self-defeating -- you state explicitly all Jews
can "call it home". Did you bother to figure out why this is so?
To deny (to paraphrase Frank) 1. and 2. is, in my view, anti-Zionist.You seem to have borrowed Marc's logic.
These points cannot be separated - whatever the consequences.Please don't tell us Arab/Muslim hatred of the Jews was triggered
by Zionism. Mohammad's soldiers waged unprovoked unnecessary
war against Jewish tribes in Arabia. Their first great "victory" was to butcher all the inhabitants of the Jewish village of Khaybar, including women and children. That happened in the 7th century AD. It did not
start in 1948.
I think the real discussion is about 3.: how to deal with the consequences.Discussions and negotiations are pointless when people disregard
or ignore verifiable, material, tangible historical facts.
Initially, I trusted that the women and men who once formed theAre you referring to "The Final Solution"? Or do you have something
backbone of Western (in particular German) civilization would
steer the ship of state in the right direction after solving the
initial problems.
else in mind? "Western Civilization" has no moral backbone. It never
had. WC is about one thing, and one thing only: accumulating money
and tangible assets. How about a quick check of what the Dutch did
in Indonesia and South Africa? Or what the Belgians did in Congo?
You call that "civilization" just because Bruegel painted nice looking postcards ?!? I won't waste your time to review French behavior in Indo-China, or British behavior in all its colonies. Have you ever
been to Hong Kong?
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/dr_hermes/14666255/594017/594017_900.jpg
You call that "civilization" ?!?
I lost that confidence after Rabin's assassination. Since then,You didn't lose that "confidence" when Nasser and his goons
I have been more critical than I was, and in my opinion with
good reason.
attacked Israel with the openly stated goal to exterminate all
the Jews? Your headline memory appears to be extremely
selective. Or were you distracted by watching Ashkenazy
win the QE piano rodeo?
You have a really twisted mind. You are basically saying
(however politely) that the Israeli-Arab conflict is nothing
but the result of Israeli intransigence. The other side is of
course pure and innocent of any wrong doings.
You are a cultural and social anti-semite. Case closed.
dk
Op zondag 12 februari 2023 om 22:51:20 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:tradition.
If you are suggesting the land belongs to the "original population",
then it clearly belongs to the Jewish people before any other group
can claim it.
You really need to revisit your history.
No need. I was once well-versed in Middle Eastern history. It was more than half a century ago, but I have not forgotten the headlines.
Of course, we can argue about the "original" population and to whom the land once "belonged". Perhaps an interesting history lesson, and at least a boost for the legal minds among us.
In my opinion, it would not do justice to the fact that: 1. Zionism was the answer to a problem (autonomy, security) that needed solving more urgently than ever, and 2. the Promised Land was the only place all could call home thanks to a shared
To deny (to paraphrase Frank) 1. and 2. is, in my view, anti-Zionist. These points cannot be separated - whatever the consequences.assassination. Since then, I have been more critical than I was, and in my opinion with good reason.
I think the real discussion is about 3.: how to deal with the consequences.
Initially, I trusted that the women and men who once formed the backbone of Western (in particular German) civilization would steer the ship of state in the right direction after solving the initial problems. I lost that confidence after Rabin's
Henk
On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 3:50:16 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 6:41:36 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 2:36:12 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
No, we cannot argue. These are
verifiable, measurable, historical
facts.
Says Putin about occupying Ukraine,
which has never existed, according
to his facts.
You have now shown your true
colors as a rabid,
No I'm not. You are the rabid racist here, and you've brought a couple of crazy mouth-foaming racists here after you turned RMCR into a racist free for all.
All I did was point out that these "historical facts" are problematic in a world of constant migration and overpopulation and its concomitant competition for, shall we say, Lebensraum.
There is a prevalent idea among the Left that somehow Rabin would have made "peace" with the Palestinians. This is a convenient pipe dream. This could theoretically have been true if there was a Palestinian entity in existence that accepted the idea ofa two-state solution. There wasn't and there isn't. Maybe in a generation or two, but the acceptance will probably come too late.
of a two-state solution. There wasn't and there isn't. Maybe in a generation or two, but the acceptance will probably come too late.There is a prevalent idea among the Left that somehow Rabin would have made "peace" with the Palestinians. This is a convenient pipe dream. This could theoretically have been true if there was a Palestinian entity in existence that accepted the idea
I didn't expect Rabin to come to some kind of understanding with Arafat. Arafat was an unguided projectile. The fact that Rabin was murdered for trying to keep the option open, proved that I had been too naive about Israel's position.
A deal is farther away than ever before, imho. Let's hope that I'm too cynical this time.
Henk
As in all political assassinations, Rabin was murdered by an individual, not a movement. There are always nuts with the potential to do harm.
Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 13. Februar 2023 um 02:36:12 UTC+1:for the flags).
You call that "civilization" just because Bruegel painted nice looking postcards ?!? I won't waste your time to review French behavior in Indo-China, or British behavior in all its colonies. Have you ever
been to Hong Kong?
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/dr_hermes/14666255/594017/594017_900.jpg
You call that "civilization" ?!?I have been to Hongkong more than one time (Shangri-La Hotel in Kowloon, I can only recommend). A friend of mine worked there; she left after China got crazy and megalomaniac trying to totally annex HK.
Are you fucking stupid? HK is a beacon of human rights compared to China, and if you had any idea of HK's relationship with China, you would at least sort of understandn why HK-people would feel this way.
You idolize singapore that only recently legitimised homosexuality, but shit all over hk... You idiot.
The HK-people were asking the USA to help, because they know that the West respects human rights more than China. They were waving US-flags (https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/09/hong-kong-protesters-1486227 - I didn't read the article, I linked it
If you support the Ukrainians against Russia, you idiot should also support HK-people against China.
How fucking stupid are you DK?
dk
You call that "civilization" just because Bruegel painted nice looking postcards ?!? I won't waste your time to review French behavior in Indo-China, or British behavior in all its colonies. Have you ever
been to Hong Kong?
https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/dr_hermes/14666255/594017/594017_900.jpg
dk
DON'T FEED THE TROLLS
On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 5:58:40 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:
DON'T FEED THE TROLLSOn the contrary, feed them ... to the sharks! ;-)
dk
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