• [OT] How many Jewish mothers does it take to change a light bulb?

    From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 10 16:21:00 2023
    Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?

    It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable, but I'm afraid that many of the people jumping on this particular
    bandwagon are not amenable to rational argument.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

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  • From Pluted Pup@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Fri Feb 10 17:38:35 2023
    On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 16:21:00 -0800, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?

    It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable, but I'm afraid that many of the people jumping on this particular
    bandwagon are not amenable to rational argument.

    Warriors against antisemitism won't stop. So you'll have to
    come up with something antisemitic to please them.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Fri Feb 10 18:12:05 2023
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under
    every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?

    Antisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-)

    It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical
    music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired
    yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,

    For 2000 years now ..... ?!?

    dk

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  • From Notsure01@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 10 22:42:23 2023
    No - the real question is how long it will take for RMCR denizens to
    start arguing about the different versions of light bulbs?

    Incandescent or LED? Compact fluorescent? Has anyone surpassed the
    gentle glow of those frosted bulbs made in Hungary? And what is a type
    "A" base anyway? Who ever heard of a remote control light bulb?

    So many questions...but I am confident that folks here could have an illuminating discussion in a flash.. but only after I get a crowd to
    turn the house while i make sure the bulb is held still...

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 10 19:53:46 2023
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 7:42:27 PM UTC-8, Notsure01 wrote:

    No - the real question is how long it will take for RMCR denizens
    to start arguing about the different versions of light bulbs?

    Looks like you are already answering your own question.

    Maybe you don't believe in light bulbs, but they are used
    to make music. Very few musicians can perform without
    light: https://youtu.be/NsNs1QY7B7g?t=1380

    dk

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  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 10 21:06:19 2023
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 2:42:27 PM UTC+11, Notsure01 wrote:

    So many questions...but I am confident that folks here could have an illuminating discussion in a flash.. but only after I get a crowd to
    turn the house while i make sure the bulb is held still...

    Not, I'm sure you will be perfectly all right at home ... by yourself ... in the *dark* ...

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

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  • From Andrew Clarke@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Fri Feb 10 21:03:26 2023
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:12:08 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under
    every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?
    Antisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-)
    It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical
    music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired
    yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,
    For 2000 years now ..... ?!?

    dk

    Simple issue of logic. (a) People who don't like Jews necessarily won't like the state of Israel. But people who don't like the state of Israel do not necessarily dislike Jews, indeed quite a few of them are Jewish themselves. (b) To dislike someone who
    is Jewish in particular does not necessarily imply a dislike of Jews in general.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Fri Feb 10 21:21:30 2023
    Andrew Clarke schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 01:21:03 UTC+1:
    Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?


    Antisemites and their supporters (Pulp, Andy, Henk, Herman and even Dan to a degree) have to be shamed publicly (you seem to be another case).

    How about you educate yourself on this matter? As you seem to have no clue about antisemitism, I think you should shut your trap on this topic.

    Would you condone racism the way you condone antisemitic behaviour?

    It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable, but I'm afraid that many of the people jumping on this particular
    bandwagon are not amenable to rational argument.

    I don't know man, it's actually the antisemites that are not amenable to rational argument.

    You can lie to yourself, stay "optimist" and tell yourself that they are all no antisemites - whatever you want to believe, Sir.

    Time for another jewish joke, I guess:

    "The optimists stayed in Germany, the pessimists went to Palestine."


    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Pluted Pup on Fri Feb 10 21:24:29 2023
    Pluted Pup schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 02:38:43 UTC+1:
    On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 16:21:00 -0800, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?

    It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable, but I'm afraid that many of the people jumping on this
    particular bandwagon are not amenable to rational argument.
    Warriors against antisemitism won't stop. So you'll have to
    come up with something antisemitic to please them.

    Go cry you lowlife.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From James Goodzeit@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Fri Feb 10 21:46:17 2023
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 12:03:29 AM UTC-5, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:12:08 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under
    every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?
    Antisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-)
    It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical
    music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired
    yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,
    For 2000 years now ..... ?!?

    dk
    Simple issue of logic. (a) People who don't like Jews necessarily won't like the state of Israel. But people who don't like the state of Israel do not necessarily dislike Jews, indeed quite a few of them are Jewish themselves. (b) To dislike someone
    who is Jewish in particular does not necessarily imply a dislike of Jews in general.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    In your logic, (a) isn't necessarily the case, as there are a lot of people who don't like Jews, but do like the state of Israel because they either hate Muslims even more or they are white Evangelical Christians who believe God created the state of
    Israel as part of his plan for the world.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 10 21:48:34 2023
    Just yesterday an arab terrorist rammed his car into Jews at a bus stop in Jerusalem; killing a 6 year old and a 20 year old and injuring more.

    Why do people do this? Because they are brainwashed about Israel. And antisemites like Herman propagating the notion that Israel is the doing the "big time killing", and that Israel is basically the one responsible for all the bad stuff happening in that
    region, are giving antisemites even more food for their delusions, more "reasons" to commit these barbaric acts.

    Herman ofc will not admit his mistakes. He will just continue to lie, like he always does.

    "I don't talk about Israeli politics, because I have nothing to add". He said.

    When shown evidence to the contrary, he stays silent.

    You guys are all a joke.

    https://www.nysun.com/article/arab-terrorist-slays-two-including-6-year-old-boy-at-jerusalem-bus-stop

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Fri Feb 10 22:07:44 2023
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 9:03:29 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:12:08 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under
    every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?

    Antisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-)

    It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical
    music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired
    yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,

    For 2000 years now ..... ?!?

    Simple issue of logic. (a) People who don't like Jews necessarily won't
    like the state of Israel. But people who don't like the state of Israel do not necessarily dislike Jews, indeed quite a few of them are Jewish themselves. (b) To dislike someone who is Jewish in particular does
    not necessarily imply a dislike of Jews in general.

    Not so fast. Numbers matter. What about people who dislike a large
    number of Jews without hypotethically not disliking Jews in general?

    In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice, they are not.

    You don't seem to understand the fact that anti-semitism, as all other
    kinds of racism, is not a black or white matter. It comes in degrees
    and with nuances.

    At the extreme end of the scale there is state anti-semitism, such as
    in Germany or in Russia, or in medieval Europe, with explicit laws that restrict the rights of Jewsish population, limit where they cam live or
    what they can do, etc...

    Just below state anti-semitism there is political anti-semitism, such
    as political parties or other organizations promoting anti-semitic
    agendas openly, or discriminating against Jewish individuals or
    institutions.

    Left unchecked, political anti-semitism can easily evolve into
    state anti-semitism -- exactly what happened in Germany and
    to a lesser degree in Russia.

    Social and cultural anti-semitism are less obvious and harder
    to detect -- e.g. Ivy League and British universities artificially
    limiting the number of Jewish students (sometimes other
    races too), the Vienna Philharmonic not including Jewish
    players, and so on.

    More shades and nuances appear at individul level, e.g.
    people who believe they are not anti-semites but would
    never allow their sons or daughters to date (let alone
    marry) Jewish people.

    dk

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  • From Todd M. McComb@21:1/5 to james.goodzeit@gmail.com on Sat Feb 11 06:13:21 2023
    In article <773ab92f-6d0e-4ead-8a68-70ae24657d51n@googlegroups.com>,
    James Goodzeit <james.goodzeit@gmail.com> wrote:
    ... there are a lot of people who don't like Jews, but do like the
    state of Israel ....

    Indeed.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Todd M. McComb on Fri Feb 10 22:29:07 2023
    Todd M. McComb schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 07:13:25 UTC+1:
    In article <773ab92f-6d0e-4ead...@googlegroups.com>,
    James Goodzeit <james.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
    ... there are a lot of people who don't like Jews, but do like the
    state of Israel ....

    Indeed.

    Since you seem to be so knowledgable about this topic - ahem - how about you share some examples of people who hate the Jews, but like the state of Israel?

    Did studying theoretical physics fuck up your brain so much to not notice the obvious contradiction in the statement of Goodzeit?

    If you hate Jews, you cannot like a Jewish state - it's very simple. Maybe some antisemites appreciate the technological etc achievements of Israel, but they still hate Israel.

    God are you deluded - no wonder you take the words of a self-hating Jew for granted.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Fri Feb 10 22:32:41 2023
    Andrew Clarke schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 06:03:29 UTC+1:
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:12:08 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under
    every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?
    Antisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-)
    It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical
    music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired
    yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,
    For 2000 years now ..... ?!?

    dk
    Simple issue of logic. (a) People who don't like Jews necessarily won't like the state of Israel. But people who don't like the state of Israel do not necessarily dislike Jews, indeed quite a few of them are Jewish themselves.

    Yes, some Jews hate themselves and they hate Israel, just like Norman Finkelstein - a virulent jewish antisemite. Antisemites love to quote jews like him (or Jews like Goodzeit).

    (b) To dislike someone who is Jewish in particular does not necessarily imply a dislike of Jews in general.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Fri Feb 10 23:00:31 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 07:07:47 UTC+1:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 9:03:29 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:12:08 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under
    every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?

    Antisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-)

    It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,

    For 2000 years now ..... ?!?

    Simple issue of logic. (a) People who don't like Jews necessarily won't like the state of Israel. But people who don't like the state of Israel do not necessarily dislike Jews, indeed quite a few of them are Jewish themselves. (b) To dislike someone who is Jewish in particular does
    not necessarily imply a dislike of Jews in general.
    Not so fast. Numbers matter. What about people who dislike a large
    number of Jews without hypotethically not disliking Jews in general?


    Dan, you really need to learn to read; your response does not make any sense. Andrew never said that numbers didn't matter.

    In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice, they are not.


    We shit on your "expertise" wrt to antisemitism. In theory I think Jews would know what antisemitism is, in practice unfortunately, as exemplified by your highness, they do not.

    You don't seem to understand the fact that anti-semitism, as all other
    kinds of racism, is not a black or white matter. It comes in degrees
    and with nuances.

    Antisemitism is different from racial prejudices against jews.

    Let me illustrate this for you:

    Racial prejudices against Jews include things like crooked noses etc.

    Racists project stereotypes on people (Jews having crooked noses, Jews being greedy, African-Americans being drug-dealers etc).

    Antisemites do something else, they project the world's character on the Jews:

    - Nazis saying that Jews rule the world and are responsible for the financial misery of countless people etc.

    - Antisemites accusing the Jews in finance business of being responsible for financial crises.

    - Antisemites like Herman solely blaming Israel of being responsible for the mess in the region.

    - Muslims blamign Jews to be responsible for natural disasters (such as floods or droughts etc).

    Have you ever seen a racist that thought that blacks are controlling the world? Or have you ever seen racists that accuse blacks of being responsible for floods and financial crises? Have you ever heard of a secret organization (*like people say about
    the Illuminati) made up of black men that controls the world? No. Because racists deem their object of hatred to be inferior; racists are not afraid of black people.

    Antisemites otoh deem their object of hatred to be superior; Jews have the power to control the world; you would never hear a guy from the KKK saying that the africans have the power to control the world...


    At the extreme end of the scale there is state anti-semitism, such as
    in Germany or in Russia, or in medieval Europe, with explicit laws that restrict the rights of Jewsish population, limit where they cam live or
    what they can do, etc...

    How about some more recent examples? Iran and Palestine for example?

    What did the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" do? It did not just project stereotypes on jews, it tried to explain the world character through the Jews. Society is corrupt, because Jews in power have corrupted the society.


    Just below state anti-semitism there is political anti-semitism, such
    as political parties or other organizations promoting anti-semitic
    agendas openly, or discriminating against Jewish individuals or institutions.

    Left unchecked, political anti-semitism can easily evolve into
    state anti-semitism -- exactly what happened in Germany and
    to a lesser degree in Russia.

    Social and cultural anti-semitism are less obvious and harder
    to detect -- e.g. Ivy League and British universities artificially
    limiting the number of Jewish students (sometimes other
    races too), the Vienna Philharmonic not including Jewish
    players, and so on.

    This is some conspirational nonsense without providing evidence. Not saying there aren't antisemitic sentiments on campuses, but what you are saying is conspirational nonsense.

    The antisemtism in the academic field is quite obvious actually.

    Read this for antisemitism in western universities:

    https://www.jpost.com/opinion/article-722593

    More shades and nuances appear at individul level, e.g.
    people who believe they are not anti-semites but would
    never allow their sons or daughters to date (let alone
    marry) Jewish people.

    Herman would fit the bill.


    dk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Fri Feb 10 23:05:26 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 07:07:47 UTC+1:
    More shades and nuances appear at individul level, e.g.
    people who believe they are not anti-semites but would
    never allow their sons or daughters to date (let alone
    marry) Jewish people.

    It should also be noted, that I think you might be mistaking some things here: Maybe the goyim who didn't want you to marry their daughters, didn't want it, not because you were a jew, but because you are an absolute idiot.


    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Feb 10 23:08:05 2023
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 11:00:34 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 07:07:47 UTC+1:

    Social and cultural anti-semitism are less obvious and harder
    to detect -- e.g. Ivy League and British universities artificially
    limiting the number of Jewish students (sometimes other
    races too), the Vienna Philharmonic not including Jewish
    players, and so on.

    This is some conspirational nonsense without providing evidence.

    You are completely brainfucked and deranged. The Harvard
    Jewish admissions numerus clausus scandals during the
    1930s and 1970s made literally hundreds of headlines
    and were amply researched and fully documented, as
    was the Asian admissions scandal in the 2000s.

    You probably don't read anything except Kant, Adorno,
    JP and r.m.c.r.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Pluted Pup@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Feb 10 23:17:53 2023
    On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 23:00:31 -0800, Marc S wrote:

    Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 07:07:47 UTC+1:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 9:03:29 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:12:08 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under
    every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?

    Antisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-)

    It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,

    For 2000 years now ..... ?!?

    Simple issue of logic. (a) People who don't like Jews necessarily won't like the state of Israel. But people who don't like the state of Israel do
    not necessarily dislike Jews, indeed quite a few of them are Jewish themselves. (b) To dislike someone who is Jewish in particular does
    not necessarily imply a dislike of Jews in general.
    Not so fast. Numbers matter. What about people who dislike a large
    number of Jews without hypotethically not disliking Jews in general?

    Dan, you really need to learn to read; your response does not make any sense. Andrew never said that numbers didn't matter.

    In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice, they are not.

    We shit on your "expertise" wrt to antisemitism. In theory I think Jews would know what antisemitism is, in practice unfortunately, as exemplified by your highness, they do not.

    You don't seem to understand the fact that anti-semitism, as all other kinds of racism, is not a black or white matter. It comes in degrees
    and with nuances.

    There are no degrees. There are only two types of people in
    the world, Jews and antisemites. Jews are depriving non-Jews
    of the antisemitism needed to survive, an injustice.

    The only thing you can do is to call off the war onantisemitism.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Fri Feb 10 23:15:29 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 08:08:07 UTC+1:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 11:00:34 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 07:07:47 UTC+1:

    Social and cultural anti-semitism are less obvious and harder
    to detect -- e.g. Ivy League and British universities artificially limiting the number of Jewish students (sometimes other
    races too), the Vienna Philharmonic not including Jewish
    players, and so on.

    This is some conspirational nonsense without providing evidence.
    You are completely brainfucked and deranged. The Harvard
    Jewish admissions numerus clausus scandals during the
    1930s and 1970s made literally hundreds of headlines
    and were amply researched and fully documented, as
    was the Asian admissions scandal in the 2000s.

    You really need to learn to read as I said above.

    I did explicitly say that I am not saying that there are no antisemitic sentiments on western campuses, just that the way you presented it was reminiscent of how conspirational theorists present their screwed world view.

    I asked you to provide evidence to prove what you are saying. Your words are meaningless without facts. Why should people believe you when you don't provide facts; I thought you were against believing blindly, obviously you aren't. You are no authority
    on this matter, you are just the loser from RMCR who hates himself.


    You probably don't read anything except Kant, Adorno,
    JP and r.m.c.r.

    I read Ruth Wisse as opposed to you, and a lot of other things. While you claim to be well-read about stuff you have no clue about... say Kant... whose philosophy in your deluded mind was the precursor to Nazism.

    You are one of the biggest liars on this ng.


    dk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Pluted Pup on Fri Feb 10 23:22:51 2023
    Pluted Pup schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 08:18:01 UTC+1:
    On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 23:00:31 -0800, Marc S wrote:

    Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 07:07:47 UTC+1:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 9:03:29 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:12:08 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?

    Antisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-)

    It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,

    For 2000 years now ..... ?!?

    Simple issue of logic. (a) People who don't like Jews necessarily won't like the state of Israel. But people who don't like the state of Israel do
    not necessarily dislike Jews, indeed quite a few of them are Jewish themselves. (b) To dislike someone who is Jewish in particular does
    not necessarily imply a dislike of Jews in general.
    Not so fast. Numbers matter. What about people who dislike a large
    number of Jews without hypotethically not disliking Jews in general?

    Dan, you really need to learn to read; your response does not make any sense. Andrew never said that numbers didn't matter.

    In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice, they are not.

    We shit on your "expertise" wrt to antisemitism. In theory I think Jews would know what antisemitism is, in practice unfortunately, as exemplified by your highness, they do not.

    You don't seem to understand the fact that anti-semitism, as all other kinds of racism, is not a black or white matter. It comes in degrees
    and with nuances.
    There are no degrees. There are only two types of people in
    the world, Jews and antisemites. Jews are depriving non-Jews
    of the antisemitism needed to survive, an injustice.

    The only thing you can do is to call off the war onantisemitism.

    Or antisemites like you could stop bitching about Jews and Israel. But since you are sick to your soul, this won't happen.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Fri Feb 10 23:23:19 2023
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 11:15:32 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 08:08:07 UTC+1:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 11:00:34 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 07:07:47 UTC+1:

    Social and cultural anti-semitism are less obvious and harder
    to detect -- e.g. Ivy League and British universities artificially limiting the number of Jewish students (sometimes other
    races too), the Vienna Philharmonic not including Jewish
    players, and so on.

    This is some conspirational nonsense without providing evidence.
    You are completely brainfucked and deranged. The Harvard
    Jewish admissions numerus clausus scandals during the
    1930s and 1970s made literally hundreds of headlines
    and were amply researched and fully documented, as
    was the Asian admissions scandal in the 2000s.

    You really need to learn to read as I said above.

    I did explicitly say that I am not saying that there are no
    antisemitic sentiments on western campuses, just that
    the way you presented it was reminiscent of how
    conspirational theorists present their screwed
    world view.

    I asked you to provide evidence to prove what you are
    saying. Your words are meaningless without facts. Why
    should people believe you when you don't provide facts;
    I thought you were against believing blindly, obviously
    you aren't. You are no authority on this matter, you are
    just the loser from RMCR who hates himself.

    The events I mentioned are well known and thoroughly
    documented. They don't need any more "proof". You
    can google, can you? Or search other sources? This
    is not a legal proceeding.

    You probably don't read anything except Kant, Adorno,
    JP and r.m.c.r.

    I read Ruth Wisse as opposed to you, and a lot of other things.

    Even worse. Ruth Wisse is a bigoted retarded hyper
    conservative ultra reactionary Canadian shtetl girl
    whose dream is for the Jewish people to return to
    the Middle Ages. It won't happen. She knows it.
    You know it. And so does everybody else.

    If you are so obsessed with Judaism why don't you
    convert, move to Israel, move in with the Hassidim
    in Mea She'arim, spend all your time praying and
    licking the boots and sucking up to the rabbis.
    Stop fucking other people's brains -- fuck yours
    first. You are an excrement!

    dk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Fri Feb 10 23:38:17 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 08:23:22 UTC+1:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 11:15:32 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 08:08:07 UTC+1:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 11:00:34 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 07:07:47 UTC+1:

    Social and cultural anti-semitism are less obvious and harder
    to detect -- e.g. Ivy League and British universities artificially limiting the number of Jewish students (sometimes other
    races too), the Vienna Philharmonic not including Jewish
    players, and so on.

    This is some conspirational nonsense without providing evidence.
    You are completely brainfucked and deranged. The Harvard
    Jewish admissions numerus clausus scandals during the
    1930s and 1970s made literally hundreds of headlines
    and were amply researched and fully documented, as
    was the Asian admissions scandal in the 2000s.

    You really need to learn to read as I said above.

    I did explicitly say that I am not saying that there are no
    antisemitic sentiments on western campuses, just that
    the way you presented it was reminiscent of how
    conspirational theorists present their screwed
    world view.

    I asked you to provide evidence to prove what you are
    saying. Your words are meaningless without facts. Why
    should people believe you when you don't provide facts;
    I thought you were against believing blindly, obviously
    you aren't. You are no authority on this matter, you are
    just the loser from RMCR who hates himself.
    The events I mentioned are well known and thoroughly
    documented. They don't need any more "proof". You
    can google, can you? Or search other sources? This
    is not a legal proceeding.

    You did not mention any events in your response to Andrew. You only mentioned the events you had in your head after I pressed, you fucking fool.

    You really are incapable of seeing your own idiocy, aren't you?

    You probably don't read anything except Kant, Adorno,
    JP and r.m.c.r.

    I read Ruth Wisse as opposed to you, and a lot of other things.
    Even worse. Ruth Wisse is a bigoted retarded hyper
    conservative ultra reactionary Canadian shtetl girl

    Just a couple of messages ago you were saying things like, that not everything is "black" and "white", that there are nuances etc.

    Now you paint Ruth Wisse in the darkest black... something you accused me of, when I simply named reality: That Henk, Herman and Andy are antisemites and that you are a hypocrite.

    You love projecting your own short comings on me, hm?

    whose dream is for the Jewish people to return to
    the Middle Ages. It won't happen. She knows it.

    We all know you are paranoid. Stop imagining things.

    It's obviously your dream to deny the Jewish people of their right to self determination.

    You know it. And so does everybody else.


    Whatever you believe in your deluded mind.

    If you are so obsessed with Judaism why don't you
    convert, move to Israel, move in with the Hassidim

    I am not obsessed with Judaism as you seem to believe. I am predominately interested in what constitutes antisemitism; I also have Jewish friends as opposed to you who has no friends and wasted his life on this ng. Fortunately my Jewish friends aren't as
    fucked in their heads as you are.

    in Mea She'arim, spend all your time praying and
    licking the boots and sucking up to the rabbis.
    Stop fucking other people's brains -- fuck yours
    first. You are an excrement!

    Whatever dude, you must be living a wonderful life with no friends.


    dk

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Sat Feb 11 05:07:16 2023
    On Saturday, 11 February 2023 at 00:21:03 UTC, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?
    Andrew Clarke

    You are absolutely right, of course. There are those of us who are outraged by the recent behaviour of the State of Israel and while it is sometimes hard to contain such feelings, the threads on this newsgroup have been hijacked by a lot of lies and
    garbage which simply goes on and on and on.

    It's been said many, many times - DON'T FEED THE TROLLS

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Sat Feb 11 06:08:23 2023
    Andy Evans schrieb am Samstag, 11. Februar 2023 um 14:07:19 UTC+1:
    On Saturday, 11 February 2023 at 00:21:03 UTC, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?
    Andrew Clarke

    You are absolutely right, of course. There are those of us who are outraged by the recent behaviour of the State of Israel and while it is sometimes hard to contain such feelings, the threads on this newsgroup have been hijacked by a lot of lies and
    garbage which simply goes on and on and on.

    Where are those of you who are outraged at the behaviour of palestinians? An arab ("palestinian") terrorist murdered a 6 year old jewish boy just yesterday. What did the palestinians do? They celebrated this by distributing candy and cakes.

    https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-731208

    Ofc antisemites like Andy will either find this justified, blame the jews or neglect it altogether, wiping it under the rug, because it doesn't fit their narrative.


    It's been said many, many times - DON'T FEED THE TROLLS

    Dan where are you to stand up against antisemites? Oh, I forgot... self-hating Jews will ofc not stand up against antisemites.

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  • From Al Eisner@21:1/5 to James Goodzeit on Sun Feb 12 00:35:42 2023
    On Fri, 10 Feb 2023, James Goodzeit wrote:

    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 12:03:29 AM UTC-5, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:12:08 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under
    every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?
    Antisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-) >>>> It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical
    music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired
    yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,
    For 2000 years now ..... ?!?

    dk
    Simple issue of logic. (a) People who don't like Jews necessarily won't like the state of Israel. But people who don't like the state of Israel do not necessarily dislike Jews, indeed quite a few of them are Jewish themselves. (b) To dislike someone
    who is Jewish in particular does not necessarily imply a dislike of Jews in general.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    In your logic, (a) isn't necessarily the case, as there are a lot of people who don't like Jews, but do like the state of Israel because they either hate Muslims even more or they are white Evangelical Christians who believe God created the state of
    Israel as part of his plan for the world.

    Precisely. And I would add that some of the most dangerous
    anti-semites are in that category. They by no means wish Jews
    well.

    Was it Andrew or someone else who pointed out that
    anti-semitism and anti-Zionism are two intersecting circles?
    A Venn (but not necessarily Zen) diagram.

    --
    Al Eisner

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Al Eisner on Sun Feb 12 01:43:36 2023
    Al Eisner schrieb am Sonntag, 12. Februar 2023 um 09:35:51 UTC+1:
    On Fri, 10 Feb 2023, James Goodzeit wrote:

    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 12:03:29 AM UTC-5, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:12:08 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote: >>>>
    Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under
    every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately? >>> Antisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-) >>>> It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical
    music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired >>>> yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,
    For 2000 years now ..... ?!?

    dk
    Simple issue of logic. (a) People who don't like Jews necessarily won't like the state of Israel. But people who don't like the state of Israel do not necessarily dislike Jews, indeed quite a few of them are Jewish themselves. (b) To dislike someone
    who is Jewish in particular does not necessarily imply a dislike of Jews in general.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    In your logic, (a) isn't necessarily the case, as there are a lot of people who don't like Jews, but do like the state of Israel because they either hate Muslims even more or they are white Evangelical Christians who believe God created the state of
    Israel as part of his plan for the world.
    Precisely. And I would add that some of the most dangerous
    anti-semites are in that category. They by no means wish Jews
    well.

    I get where you are coming from, but do you know people who hate Jews but love Israel, as our self-hating Jew Goodzeit imagined?

    FWIW:

    - I am no Christian (even though I respect the Bible); my passport says I'm Christian for reasons of convenience.

    - I am no Jew (even though I respect the Torah) and I don't intend to become one.

    - I am a deist; I don't believe that Jerusalem is more holy than other places or that the torah was sent from God etc, but I have great respect for the ancient Jewish culture and the cultural heritage of the Jews.

    - I don't hate Muslims, but Islam, as it is a dangeorus ideology. It is manichaean and inherently antisemitic: Islam teaches that Jews corrupted God's words (thus fostering hatred towards Jews - other passages foster hatred against polytheists etc); that
    there will a final war between Jews and Muslims etc. As long as the Muslims and the non-Muslims don't recognize this and speak out openly about it, islamic antisemtism goes unchecked (I am not saying that all muslims believe this, but they don't do
    anything to recognize how this fosters antisemitism; and that all major islamic institutions in most islamic countries teach this - they only have their victim mentality; similar to the leftists like Ilhan Omar). If you want to help the Muslims, you
    should be honest with them; and not whitewash Islam - help them get out of this quagmire.

    I think it was Oscar who quoted the following passage out of the sunnah (which all major islamic schools believe in:

    "Al-Bukhari (3593) and Muslim (2921) narrated from the hadith of Ibn ‘Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) that he said: I heard the Messenger of Allah (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) say: “The Jews will fight you and you will prevail over
    them, then a rock will say: ‘O Muslim, here is a Jew behind me; kill him.’” "

    As Marx correctly analysed:

    "The Koran and the Mussulman legislation emanating from it reduce the geography and ethnography of the various people to the simple and convenient distinction of two nations and of two countries; those of the Faithful and of the Infidels. The Infidel is
    harby,” i.e. the enemy. Islamism proscribes the nation of the Infidels, constituting a state of permanent hostility between the Mussulman and the unbeliever. In that sense the corsair-ships of the Berber States were the holy fleet of Islam."

    ------

    Do you think people like Norman Finkelstein or Goodzeit mean to wish the Jews well? Surely not as they are full of self-hatred. If every Jew thought like Goodzeit, Israel would be lost.

    "The sociologist Irving Louis Horowitz reserves the term for Jews who pose a danger to the Jewish community, using "Jewish self-hater" to describe the so-called "court Jew", "who validates the slander (against Jews) as he attempts to curry the favor of
    masters and rulers.""


    Was it Andrew or someone else who pointed out that
    anti-semitism and anti-Zionism are two intersecting circles?
    A Venn (but not necessarily Zen) diagram.

    And you think this something fantastic? Try to educate yourself about antisemitism concretely instead of coming up with some abstract pictures that don't explain anything.

    Is this ng full of self-hating Jews? Except for Arri or Frank? Wtf


    --
    Al Eisner

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Al Eisner on Sun Feb 12 09:23:22 2023
    On 2/12/2023 3:35 AM, Al Eisner wrote:
    On Fri, 10 Feb 2023, James Goodzeit wrote:

    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 12:03:29 AM UTC-5, Andrew Clarke wrote: >>> On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:12:08 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote: >>>>>
    Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under
    every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately? >>>> Antisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-) >>>>> It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical
    music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired
    yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,
    For 2000 years now ..... ?!?

    dk
    Simple issue of logic. (a) People who don't like Jews necessarily won't like the state of Israel. But people who don't like the state of Israel do not necessarily dislike Jews, indeed quite a few of them are Jewish themselves. (b) To dislike someone
    who is Jewish in particular does not necessarily imply a dislike of Jews in general.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra

    In your logic, (a) isn't necessarily the case, as there are a lot of people who don't like Jews, but do like the state of Israel because they either hate Muslims even more or they are white Evangelical Christians who believe God created the state of
    Israel as part of his plan for the world.

    Precisely.  And I would add that some of the most dangerous
    anti-semites are in that category.  They by no means wish Jews
    well.

    Was it Andrew or someone else who pointed out that
    anti-semitism and anti-Zionism are two intersecting circles?
    A Venn (but not necessarily Zen) diagram.


    I'm going to repeat what I've said before and no one seems to respond to it. When different people use the word anti-semitism, they frequently don't mean the same thing. That is why there is a world-wide effort going on to come up with a standard or
    common definition. This effort will fail. An example I give and no one ever responds to it in a reasoned way, usually just name-calling:

    If Jews themselves hold Zionism dear to their hearts and indeed an essential part of their religion, then why is a person who doesn't hate Jews but denies the validity of Zionism (I am not talking simple criticism of a particular Israeli government -
    that is a different issue), not to be considered antisemitic? Only because some people adopt a definition of antisemitism that is to their liking.

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 12 07:24:41 2023
    Op zondag 12 februari 2023 om 15:23:31 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:

    If Jews themselves hold Zionism dear to their hearts and indeed an essential part of their religion, then why is a person who doesn't hate Jews but denies the validity of Zionism (I am not talking simple criticism of a particular Israeli government -
    that is a different issue), not to be considered antisemitic?

    Coming from you, this is an honest question. I'll answer you in the same vein, and strictly for myself.

    First of all, I'm not sure what you mean by: denying "the validity of Zionism". What does it imply? Is it denying Jews their own state, where they can be themselves, and at least as important, can defend themselves against aggressors? Is it denying Jews
    to found this state in Palestinian territory, without the consent and cooperation of the original population? Or is it criticism of what comes after that, and in particular the how of it?

    Would you call this last category also anti-Zionist?

    Henk

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Like I on Sun Feb 12 11:11:20 2023
    On 2/12/2023 10:24 AM, HT wrote:
    Op zondag 12 februari 2023 om 15:23:31 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:

    If Jews themselves hold Zionism dear to their hearts and indeed an essential part of their religion, then why is a person who doesn't hate Jews but denies the validity of Zionism (I am not talking simple criticism of a particular Israeli government -
    that is a different issue), not to be considered antisemitic?

    Coming from you, this is an honest question. I'll answer you in the same vein, and strictly for myself.

    First of all, I'm not sure what you mean by: denying "the validity of Zionism". What does it imply? Is it >denying Jews their own state, where they can be themselves, and at least as important, can defend >themselves against aggressors?

    Of course, that is the definition of anti-Zionism.


    Is it denying Jews to found this state in Palestinian territory, without the consent and cooperation of >the original population? Or is it criticism of what comes after that, and in particular the how of it?

    Not necessarily.



    Would you call this last category also anti-Zionist?


    Not as anti-Zionist as the basic definition.

    Like I said, it's in the eye of the beholder.



    Henk






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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 12 09:44:31 2023
    Op zondag 12 februari 2023 om 17:11:28 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:
    On 2/12/2023 10:24 AM, HT wrote:
    Op zondag 12 februari 2023 om 15:23:31 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:

    If Jews themselves hold Zionism dear to their hearts and indeed an essential part of their religion, then why is a person who doesn't hate Jews but denies the validity of Zionism (I am not talking simple criticism of a particular Israeli government -
    that is a different issue), not to be considered antisemitic?

    Coming from you, this is an honest question. I'll answer you in the same vein, and strictly for myself.

    First of all, I'm not sure what you mean by: denying "the validity of Zionism". What does it imply? Is it >denying Jews their own state, where they can be themselves, and at least as important, can defend >themselves against aggressors?
    Of course, that is the definition of anti-Zionism.
    Is it denying Jews to found this state in Palestinian territory, without the consent and cooperation of >the original population? Or is it criticism of what comes after that, and in particular the how of it?
    Not necessarily.

    Would you call this last category also anti-Zionist?

    Not as anti-Zionist as the basic definition.

    Like I said, it's in the eye of the beholder.

    Thanks! The scope of the definition of anti-Zionism is clearer. The eye of the beholder always plays a role, not only in this context.

    I understand your (rhetorical?) question better now.

    Henk

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  • From Norman Schwartz@21:1/5 to Andrew Clarke on Sun Feb 12 10:16:02 2023
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 12:03:29 AM UTC-5, Andrew Clarke wrote:
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:12:08 PM UTC+11, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 4:21:03 PM UTC-8, Andrew Clarke wrote:

    Please can those who are addicted to finding antisemitism under
    every rock take their discussions elsewhere, or communicate privately?
    Antisemitism is now also flying in on balloons from China and Russia ;-)
    It seems to be impossible to discuss anything related to classical
    music without these repetitive and irrational arguments being aired
    yet again. The issues are quite easily resolvable,
    For 2000 years now ..... ?!?

    dk
    Simple issue of logic. (a) People who don't like Jews necessarily won't like the state of Israel. But people who don't like the state of Israel do not necessarily dislike Jews, indeed quite a few of them are Jewish themselves. (b) To dislike someone
    who is Jewish in particular does not necessarily imply a dislike of Jews in general.

    Andrew Clarke
    Canberra
    As you are undoubtedly aware Jesus was a Jew, as was his mother, and was her mother. Miracles of any sort being unnecessary.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 12 13:51:17 2023
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 7:24:45 AM UTC-8, HT wrote:

    Is it denying Jews to found this state in Palestinian territory,
    without the consent and cooperation of the original population?

    What is/was "the original population"? There has been continued
    Jewish presence in what you describe as "Palestinian territory"
    since the 12th century BC -- including during times when there
    was no Jewish state. The Arabs did not occupy Palestine until
    the 6th or 7th century AD -- and they came from elsewhere.

    If you are suggesting the land belongs to the "original population",
    then it clearly belongs to the Jewish people before any other group
    can claim it.

    You really need to revisit your history.

    dk

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Feb 12 17:21:28 2023
    On 2/12/2023 4:51 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 7:24:45 AM UTC-8, HT wrote:

    Is it denying Jews to found this state in Palestinian territory,
    without the consent and cooperation of the original population?

    What is/was "the original population"? There has been continued
    Jewish presence in what you describe as "Palestinian territory"
    since the 12th century BC -- including during times when there
    was no Jewish state. The Arabs did not occupy Palestine until
    the 6th or 7th century AD -- and they came from elsewhere.

    If you are suggesting the land belongs to the "original population",
    then it clearly belongs to the Jewish people before any other group
    can claim it.

    You really need to revisit your history.

    dk

    Someone will likely mention the circa 1900 census that showed around 400,000 Arabs living in Palestine. They will also likely omit they were almost entirely living in the area of then-Palestine that become Jordan. Jordan is already more than 3/4 the
    land area of "Palestine." Another inconvenient fact.

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Feb 12 17:18:46 2023
    On 2/12/2023 4:51 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 7:24:45 AM UTC-8, HT wrote:

    Is it denying Jews to found this state in Palestinian territory,
    without the consent and cooperation of the original population?

    What is/was "the original population"? There has been continued
    Jewish presence in what you describe as "Palestinian territory"
    since the 12th century BC -- including during times when there
    was no Jewish state. The Arabs did not occupy Palestine until
    the 6th or 7th century AD -- and they came from elsewhere.

    If you are suggesting the land belongs to the "original population",
    then it clearly belongs to the Jewish people before any other group
    can claim it.

    You really need to revisit your history.

    dk

    I agree. And accepting this leads one toward considering solutions that actually work ro relieve the suffering of Palestinians rather than beating your head against the wall and droning "two-state solution...two state solution...."

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sun Feb 12 14:33:55 2023
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 1:43:38 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    I am no Christian (even though I respect the Bible);
    my passport says I'm Christian for reasons of
    convenience.

    As far as one can tell, German passports do not
    list the bearer's religion:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Mustermann_Reisepass_2017.jpg
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Mustermann_Reisepass_2007.jpg

    Neither do any other European or North American
    passports. Israeli passports do not list the bearer's
    religion either.

    This implies you either carry the passport of some
    medieval nation that does not care about putting its
    citizens at risk by listing religion on their passports,
    and/or you are lying about being German. Is this
    what you learned from Kant and Adorno?

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Sun Feb 12 14:35:59 2023
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 2:21:37 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 2/12/2023 4:51 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 7:24:45 AM UTC-8, HT wrote:

    Is it denying Jews to found this state in Palestinian territory,
    without the consent and cooperation of the original population?

    What is/was "the original population"? There has been continued
    Jewish presence in what you describe as "Palestinian territory"
    since the 12th century BC -- including during times when there
    was no Jewish state. The Arabs did not occupy Palestine until
    the 6th or 7th century AD -- and they came from elsewhere.

    If you are suggesting the land belongs to the "original population",
    then it clearly belongs to the Jewish people before any other group
    can claim it.

    You really need to revisit your history.

    Someone will likely mention the circa 1900 census that showed
    around 400,000 Arabs living in Palestine. They will also likely omit
    they were almost entirely living in the area of then-Palestine that
    become Jordan. Jordan is already more than 3/4 the land area of
    "Palestine." Another inconvenient fact.

    Facts are never "inconvenient" as long as minds can be manipulated
    and brainwashed.

    dk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Feb 12 15:14:20 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Sonntag, 12. Februar 2023 um 23:33:57 UTC+1:
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 1:43:38 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    I am no Christian (even though I respect the Bible);
    my passport says I'm Christian for reasons of
    convenience.
    As far as one can tell, German passports do not
    list the bearer's religion:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Mustermann_Reisepass_2017.jpg
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Mustermann_Reisepass_2007.jpg

    Neither do any other European or North American
    passports. Israeli passports do not list the bearer's
    religion either.

    This implies you either carry the passport of some
    medieval nation that does not care about putting its
    citizens at risk by listing religion on their passports,
    and/or you are lying about being German. Is this
    what you learned from Kant and Adorno?

    dk

    Dan, please give me a break. You are honestly completely fucked in your head. Always you think someone conspires against you, even when everything is fucking obvious.

    It's so fucking crazy that you actually investigate this detail and come up with some crazy story about me lying being German. Why the fuck would I lie about this, Dan? Ask yourself... Are you so speciaI? Is this group so special, that I would come up
    with a fake nationality? For what reason, Dan? What the fuck is wrong in your head?!

    The first e-mail I got from you came with a disclaimer (scripted it seemed) that what everything in our e-mail-exchange should stay between us... Dude, I was just asking about music... We are not trading government secrets or shit like that. It goes
    without saying, that if private stuff would be discussed in e-mails, ofc it stays between the persons, but that wasn't even my intention, I was asking about music; coming up with a scripted disclaimer though?

    As a manner of general respect (and because I knew you were kind of a distrustful guy after having read what you wrote here), I gave you my last name. I probably shouldn't have, judging after this ridiculous act of yours.

    I honestly assumed it was on my passport; don't remember the last time I actually read through the stuff in my passport haha. What I meant to say was (very obviously): For reasons of convenience I am still a member of the church in Germany.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Feb 12 15:17:12 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Sonntag, 12. Februar 2023 um 23:33:57 UTC+1:
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 1:43:38 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:

    I am no Christian (even though I respect the Bible);
    my passport says I'm Christian for reasons of
    convenience.
    As far as one can tell, German passports do not
    list the bearer's religion:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/37/Mustermann_Reisepass_2017.jpg
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Mustermann_Reisepass_2007.jpg

    Neither do any other European or North American
    passports. Israeli passports do not list the bearer's
    religion either.

    This implies you either carry the passport of some
    medieval nation that does not care about putting its
    citizens at risk by listing religion on their passports,
    and/or you are lying about being German. Is this
    what you learned from Kant and Adorno?

    dk

    How did you become like this btw? How do you even get the idea of looking this detail up? You are fucking crazy.

    Always thinking that someone is playing tricks on you or something... Like what you were saying about the governments hiding the true number of covid-deaths and it being way higher in reality.

    What the fuck is wrong with you, Dan?

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 12 16:06:01 2023
    Op zondag 12 februari 2023 om 22:51:20 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:

    If you are suggesting the land belongs to the "original population",
    then it clearly belongs to the Jewish people before any other group
    can claim it.

    You really need to revisit your history.

    No need. I was once well-versed in Middle Eastern history. It was more than half a century ago, but I have not forgotten the headlines.

    Of course, we can argue about the "original" population and to whom the land once "belonged". Perhaps an interesting history lesson, and at least a boost for the legal minds among us.

    In my opinion, it would not do justice to the fact that: 1. Zionism was the answer to a problem (autonomy, security) that needed solving more urgently than ever, and 2. the Promised Land was the only place all could call home thanks to a shared tradition.
    To deny (to paraphrase Frank) 1. and 2. is, in my view, anti-Zionist. These points cannot be separated - whatever the consequences.
    I think the real discussion is about 3.: how to deal with the consequences.

    Initially, I trusted that the women and men who once formed the backbone of Western (in particular German) civilization would steer the ship of state in the right direction after solving the initial problems. I lost that confidence after Rabin's
    assassination. Since then, I have been more critical than I was, and in my opinion with good reason.

    Henk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Feb 12 17:56:40 2023
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 5:36:12 PM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:

    How about a quick check of what the Dutch
    did in Indonesia and in South Africa?


    https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/08/10/dutch-colonial-history-indonesia-villains-victims/
    https://www.sahistory.org.za/article/history-slavery-and-early-colonisation-south-africa

    There's your "civilization"!

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 12 17:16:38 2023
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 4:06:04 PM UTC-8, HT wrote:
    Op zondag 12 februari 2023 om 22:51:20 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:

    If you are suggesting the land belongs to the "original population",
    then it clearly belongs to the Jewish people before any other group
    can claim it.

    You really need to revisit your history.

    No need. I was once well-versed in Middle Eastern history. It was
    more than half a century ago, but I have not forgotten the headlines.

    History is not defined by "headlines".

    Of course, we can argue about the "original" population and to whom
    the land once "belonged". Perhaps an interesting history lesson, and
    at least a boost for the legal minds among us.

    No, we cannot argue. These are verifiable, measurable, historical facts.
    The Jewish people are the only people still in existance who inhabited
    the land of Israel in historical times. There were of course other people
    who lived there in ancient times (e.g. Canaanites or Phoenicians) who disappeared from history and are no longer around. The Arabs started
    to move into "Palestine" in the 6th century AD,

    In my opinion, it would not do justice to the fact that: 1. Zionism was
    the answer to a problem (autonomy, security) that needed solving
    more urgently than ever, and 2. the Promised Land was the only
    place all could call home thanks to a shared tradition.

    Total non-sequitur. Zionism does not change historical facts. Your
    second argument is self-defeating -- you state explicitly all Jews
    can "call it home". Did you bother why this is so?

    To deny (to paraphrase Frank) 1. and 2. is, in my view, anti-Zionist.

    You seem to have borrowed Marc's logic.

    These points cannot be separated - whatever the consequences.

    Please don't tell us Arab/Muslim hatred of the Jews was triggered
    by Zionism. Mohammad's soldiers waged unprovoked unnecessary
    war against Jewish tribes in Arabia. Their first great "victory" was to
    butcher all the inhabitants of the Jewish village of Khaybar, including
    women and children. That happened in the 7th century AD. It did not
    start in 1948.

    I think the real discussion is about 3.: how to deal with the consequences.

    Discussions and negotiations are pointless when people diregard or
    ignore verifiable historical facts.

    Initially, I trusted that the women and men who once formed the
    backbone of Western (in particular German) civilization would
    steer the ship of state in the right direction after solving the
    initial problems.

    Are you referring to "The Final Solution"? Or do you have something
    else in mind? "Western Civilization" has no moral backbone. It never
    had. WC is about one thing, and one thing only: accumulating money
    and tangible assets. How about a quick check of what the Dutch did
    in Indonesia and South Africa? Or what the Belgians did in Congo?

    You call that "civilization" just because Bruegel painted nice looking postcards ?!? I won't waste your time to review French behavior in
    Indo-China, or British behavior in all its colonies. Have you ever
    been to Hong Kong?

    https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/dr_hermes/14666255/594017/594017_900.jpg

    You call that "civilization" ?!?

    I lost that confidence after Rabin's assassination. Since then,
    I have been more critical than I was, and in my opinion with
    good reason.

    You didn't lose that "confidence" when Nasser and his goons
    attacked Israel with the openly stated goal to exterminate all
    the Jews? Your headline memory appears to be extremely
    selective. You have a really twisted mind. You are basically
    saying (however politely) that the Israeli-Arab conflict is the
    result of Israeli intransigence. The other side if of course
    pure and innocent of any wrong doings.

    You are a cultural and social anti-semite.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 12 17:36:10 2023
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 4:06:04 PM UTC-8, HT wrote:
    Op zondag 12 februari 2023 om 22:51:20 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:

    If you are suggesting the land belongs to the "original population",
    then it clearly belongs to the Jewish people before any other group
    can claim it.

    You really need to revisit your history.

    No need. I was once well-versed in Middle Eastern history. It was
    more than half a century ago, but I have not forgotten the headlines.

    History is not defined by "headlines".

    Of course, we can argue about the "original" population and to whom
    the land once "belonged". Perhaps an interesting history lesson, and
    at least a boost for the legal minds among us.

    No, we cannot argue. These are verifiable, measurable, historical facts.

    The Jewish people are the only people still in existance who inhabited
    the land of Israel in historical times. There were of course other people
    who lived there earlier in ancient times (e.g. Canaanites or Phoenicians)
    who then disappeared from history and are no longer around. The Arabs
    started to move into "Palestine" in the 6th century AD,

    In my opinion, it would not do justice to the fact that: 1. Zionism was
    the answer to a problem (autonomy, security) that needed solving
    more urgently than ever, and 2. the Promised Land was the only
    place all could call home thanks to a shared tradition.

    Total non-sequitur. Zionism does not change historical facts. Your
    second argument is self-defeating -- you state explicitly all Jews
    can "call it home". Did you bother to figure out why this is so?

    To deny (to paraphrase Frank) 1. and 2. is, in my view, anti-Zionist.

    You seem to have borrowed Marc's logic.

    These points cannot be separated - whatever the consequences.

    Please don't tell us Arab/Muslim hatred of the Jews was triggered
    by Zionism. Mohammad's soldiers waged unprovoked unnecessary
    war against Jewish tribes in Arabia. Their first great "victory" was to
    butcher all the inhabitants of the Jewish village of Khaybar, including
    women and children. That happened in the 7th century AD. It did not
    start in 1948.

    I think the real discussion is about 3.: how to deal with the consequences.

    Discussions and negotiations are pointless when people disregard
    or ignore verifiable, material, tangible historical facts.

    Initially, I trusted that the women and men who once formed the
    backbone of Western (in particular German) civilization would
    steer the ship of state in the right direction after solving the
    initial problems.

    Are you referring to "The Final Solution"? Or do you have something
    else in mind? "Western Civilization" has no moral backbone. It never
    had. WC is about one thing, and one thing only: accumulating money
    and tangible assets. How about a quick check of what the Dutch did
    in Indonesia and South Africa? Or what the Belgians did in Congo?

    You call that "civilization" just because Bruegel painted nice looking postcards ?!? I won't waste your time to review French behavior in
    Indo-China, or British behavior in all its colonies. Have you ever
    been to Hong Kong?

    https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/dr_hermes/14666255/594017/594017_900.jpg

    You call that "civilization" ?!?

    I lost that confidence after Rabin's assassination. Since then,
    I have been more critical than I was, and in my opinion with
    good reason.

    You didn't lose that "confidence" when Nasser and his goons
    attacked Israel with the openly stated goal to exterminate all
    the Jews? Your headline memory appears to be extremely
    selective. Or were you distracted by watching Ashkenazy
    win the QE piano rodeo?

    You have a really twisted mind. You are basically saying
    (however politely) that the Israeli-Arab conflict is nothing
    but the result of Israeli intransigence. The other side is of
    course pure and innocent of any wrong doings.

    You are a cultural and social anti-semite. Case closed.

    dk

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Herman on Sun Feb 12 18:50:13 2023
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 6:41:36 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 2:36:12 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:

    No, we cannot argue. These are
    verifiable, measurable, historical
    facts.

    Says Putin about occupying Ukraine,
    which has never existed, according
    to his facts.

    Totally unrelated. There are 3000+ years
    of historical artifacts proving a Jewish
    population inhabited the land of Israel.

    There are tons of books, including the
    Bible and the Gospels, that document
    a Jewish population, state and culture
    in the Land of Israel.

    There is absolutely no archeological
    or historical evidence of an Arab or
    Muslim population in those areas
    before the 7th century AD. Islam
    appeared as a religion in the 7th
    century AD.

    You have now shown your true
    colors as a rabid, if somewhat
    quiet, anti-semite. To compare
    Israel's claim of the land with
    Putin's claims over Ukraine is
    as absurd and obscene as
    one can imagine. Perhaps
    not surprising considering
    who you are, where you live,
    and where you went to school.

    dk

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Feb 12 18:41:33 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 2:36:12 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:

    No, we cannot argue. These are verifiable, measurable, historical facts.

    Says Putin about occupying Ukraine, which has never existed, according to his facts.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Feb 12 23:13:04 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 3:50:16 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 6:41:36 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 2:36:12 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:

    No, we cannot argue. These are
    verifiable, measurable, historical
    facts.

    Says Putin about occupying Ukraine,
    which has never existed, according
    to his facts.



    You have now shown your true
    colors as a rabid,

    No I'm not. You are the rabid racist here, and you've brought a couple of crazy mouth-foaming racists here after you turned RMCR into a racist free for all.
    All I did was point out that these "historical facts" are problematic in a world of constant migration and overpopulation and its concomitant competition for, shall we say, Lebensraum.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
    * Origin: fsxNet Usenet Gateway (21:1/5)
  • From Herman@21:1/5 to All on Sun Feb 12 23:16:46 2023
    Also, it is somewhat ironic to use 'the Torah and the Gospels' as a factual, historical account, especially after all you've said about 'rabies' and the like. It's your usual opportunistic talking out of both sides of your mouth, as long as you get to
    cal people antisemite.
    I suggest using these same books to challenge geology and evolution.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 13 02:33:14 2023
    Op maandag 13 februari 2023 om 02:36:12 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:

    You are a cultural and social anti-semite. Case closed.

    <g> What odd reasoning, but a convenient way to end the discussion.

    Henk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 13 03:33:51 2023
    HT schrieb am Montag, 13. Februar 2023 um 01:06:04 UTC+1:
    No need. I was once well-versed in Middle Eastern history. It was more than half a century ago, but I have not forgotten the headlines.

    Oh, right... the "headlines"... they give us such a good picture about what is happening, right? Just read a synopsis of Shakespeare's "Romeo and Juliet" - that should suffice in understanding the story, right?

    Contrasting two examples of NYTimes headlines revealing their antizionist (*antisemitic) stance:

    "Israeli Raid on West Bank City Kills Nine Palestinians, Officials Say" (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/26/world/middleeast/israel-raid-west-bank-palestinians.html):

    What image does this headline paint? It makes it seems as if the Israelis aussaulted the Palestinians, unjustly killing 9 Palestinians - it's not just the headline though, the entire article is a joke.
    The real situation was something entirely else: The IDF conducted an anti-terror-action to protect its citizens of Palestinian terrorists; killing 9 Palestinians that were terrorists.

    Imagine if some town in the Netherlands was full of radical muslims, or just let it be a town next to the netherlands; and muslims from that town would be frequently committing terrorist acts in some cities in the Netherlands. Would the Netherlands have
    a right to defend itself? Ofc... just as Israel. Very likely the dutch police or military would conduct actions against the terrorists of said town to prevent further terrorist acts.

    According to the IHRA's working definition of antisemitism this qualifies as antisemitic: "Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation."

    Now... look at the following headline of NYT after an arab terrorist rammed his car into Israelis who waiting at a bus stop:

    "At Least 2 Dead as Driver Rams Bus Stop in East Jerusalem" (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/10/world/middleeast/jerusalem-car-attack.html).

    https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism

    Do you note the difference towards the other headline? Neither is the terrorist identified as "arab"/"palestinian" (because NYTimes in their antisemitic and anti-racist agenda would likely argue that this would just promote "Islamophobia"), nor are the
    two dead people (3 btw, as another Jewish Child later died in the hospital) identified. They are describing the Terrorist simply as a "Driver"...

    For the NY Times Jewish Lifes don't matter. Just as Jewish Lifes don't matter for Henk, Andy and Herman.

    Only Palestinian lifes matter for the antisemites (remember Henk's words about the dead palestinian Journalist?)... When Palestinians die the NYT is quick to show sympathy/commiseration; when Jewish Children die the NYT does not even mention that they
    were Jewish and that the murderer was Palestinian.

    The 2 dead people are Jews which are not named (in contrast to the Palestinian terrorists that were named in the other headline).

    Initially, I trusted that the women and men who once formed the backbone of Western (in particular German) civilization would steer the ship of state in the right direction after solving the initial problems. I lost that confidence after Rabin's
    assassination. Since then, I have been more critical than I was, and in my opinion with good reason.

    Henk... you need to understand that Israel is a sovereign nation. Why the fuck would the Germans (Or the West in General) be the captain of the ship, and not the Jewish people? You are clearly an antisemite.

    Furthermore, why are you only mentioning Israel and the West, not a single world about Palestina and the arab nations? This makes you antisemitic (*double standards IHRA)

    As far as I remember Deacon created 3 threads about Israel, accusing Israel of wrong-doing. Not a single fucking thread about Palestine? Why are we only talking about Israel and never about Palestine? Because that's what fucking antisemites like you love
    to do - you don't even realize it no more; just as the antisemites in the middle ages didn't realize their delusions.

    Furthermore you were talking about Israel furthering "Ghettoization"... pretty sure the IHRA would consider this antisemitic as well:

    "Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis."


    Henk

    You are unteachable... completely full of yourself... "well versed in middle eastern history"... hahaha

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 13 03:35:08 2023
    For antisemites like Henk and Andy Jewish lifes don't matter, only Palestinian lifes do.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Feb 13 04:38:45 2023
    Herman schrieb am Montag, 13. Februar 2023 um 03:41:36 UTC+1:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 2:36:12 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:

    No, we cannot argue. These are verifiable, measurable, historical facts.

    Says Putin about occupying Ukraine, which has never existed, according to his facts.

    You really are completely deluded. You have just demonized the majority of Israelis... they also "believe" in these historical _facts_.

    Herman... I would love to see you vacationing in Israel and telling the Israelis that they are like Putin because they "believe" in these historical _facts_... What a fucking joke you are.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Feb 13 04:32:09 2023
    Herman schrieb am Montag, 13. Februar 2023 um 08:16:48 UTC+1:
    Also, it is somewhat ironic to use 'the Torah and the Gospels' as a factual, historical account, especially after all you've said about 'rabies' and the like. It's your usual opportunistic talking out of both sides of your mouth, as long as you get to
    cal people antisemite.

    Herman... we all know you are immune to facts... You lied about not talking about Israel, and when I showed it to you, you were just silent... you seem to have a problem admitting mistakes (in this sense Dan is similar to you).

    Furthermore Dan was talking about archaeological evidence... "historical artifacts"... he was not just talking about the Torah and the Gospels as you would like to have it... quite "opportunistic" of you, to neglect what Dan actually said...

    You should also shut your trap about DK talking about "rabies"... It's not good, but you are even worse with what you have said about israel.

    I suggest using these same books to challenge geology and evolution.

    I suggest educating yourself about the Torah and its connection to some of the archaeological evidence. Torah contains "some" truth.

    You are ridiculously undereducated Herman...

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Feb 13 04:42:52 2023
    Herman schrieb am Montag, 13. Februar 2023 um 08:13:06 UTC+1:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 3:50:16 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 6:41:36 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 2:36:12 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:

    No, we cannot argue. These are
    verifiable, measurable, historical
    facts.

    Says Putin about occupying Ukraine,
    which has never existed, according
    to his facts.



    You have now shown your true
    colors as a rabid,
    No I'm not. You are the rabid racist here, and you've brought a couple of crazy mouth-foaming racists here after you turned RMCR into a racist free for all.
    All I did was point out that these "historical facts" are problematic in a world of constant migration and overpopulation and its concomitant competition for, shall we say, Lebensraum.

    Herman... they are called historical _facts_ for a reason. Maybe you didn't know, but pyramids are factual as well. You have such a screwed understanding of history, you semi-educated monkey.

    Using the term "Lebensraum" in this context... you are so fucked in your head.

    Obviously I was wrong in thinking that Dan trumped your imbecility. Only Nazis would be able to trump your imbecility.

    --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Feb 13 05:13:57 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 13. Februar 2023 um 02:36:12 UTC+1:
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 4:06:04 PM UTC-8, HT wrote:
    Op zondag 12 februari 2023 om 22:51:20 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:

    If you are suggesting the land belongs to the "original population", then it clearly belongs to the Jewish people before any other group
    can claim it.

    You really need to revisit your history.

    No need. I was once well-versed in Middle Eastern history. It was
    more than half a century ago, but I have not forgotten the headlines.
    History is not defined by "headlines".
    Of course, we can argue about the "original" population and to whom
    the land once "belonged". Perhaps an interesting history lesson, and
    at least a boost for the legal minds among us.
    No, we cannot argue. These are verifiable, measurable, historical facts.

    The Jewish people are the only people still in existance who inhabited
    the land of Israel in historical times. There were of course other people who lived there earlier in ancient times (e.g. Canaanites or Phoenicians) who then disappeared from history and are no longer around. The Arabs started to move into "Palestine" in the 6th century AD,
    In my opinion, it would not do justice to the fact that: 1. Zionism was the answer to a problem (autonomy, security) that needed solving
    more urgently than ever, and 2. the Promised Land was the only
    place all could call home thanks to a shared tradition.
    Total non-sequitur. Zionism does not change historical facts. Your
    second argument is self-defeating -- you state explicitly all Jews
    can "call it home". Did you bother to figure out why this is so?
    To deny (to paraphrase Frank) 1. and 2. is, in my view, anti-Zionist.
    You seem to have borrowed Marc's logic.

    It seems you don't understand what you are talking about, just as you don't understand me. Henk is right; if you deny 1 and 2 it will be considered anti-zionist.

    90% of the Israelis will agree with me here. You as a Californian ofc won't.

    These points cannot be separated - whatever the consequences.
    Please don't tell us Arab/Muslim hatred of the Jews was triggered
    by Zionism. Mohammad's soldiers waged unprovoked unnecessary
    war against Jewish tribes in Arabia. Their first great "victory" was to butcher all the inhabitants of the Jewish village of Khaybar, including women and children. That happened in the 7th century AD. It did not
    start in 1948.
    I think the real discussion is about 3.: how to deal with the consequences.
    Discussions and negotiations are pointless when people disregard
    or ignore verifiable, material, tangible historical facts.
    Initially, I trusted that the women and men who once formed the
    backbone of Western (in particular German) civilization would
    steer the ship of state in the right direction after solving the
    initial problems.
    Are you referring to "The Final Solution"? Or do you have something
    else in mind? "Western Civilization" has no moral backbone. It never
    had. WC is about one thing, and one thing only: accumulating money
    and tangible assets. How about a quick check of what the Dutch did
    in Indonesia and South Africa? Or what the Belgians did in Congo?

    It is not just Western Civilisations that lack moral backbone and that are all about money you self-hating idiot. All nations are like this. And Eastern Nations are much more morally corrupt than any western nation is - try getting this in your head.
    Singapore is all about money as well... if it wasn't, it wouldn't be where it is today. We all live in a capitalist world, you idiot - that is how we survive... Furthermore Singapore criminalised homosexuality in 2007, only legalising it in 2022... seems
    as if the west is morally superior in many ways. But since you hate the West, just as you hate yourself, you will not see this.

    The problem certainly is that Western Nations (such as Germany) "always" backstab Israel (yes, often because of monetary gains, such businesses with Iran). Trump didn't backstab Israel in his politics (I am just naming facts), Biden is.

    Sidenote:
    Amnesty International still hasn't reported on the terrorist act by the "Palestinian" that killed 3 Israelis. But if Israel defends itself from rocketfire from Gaza and some Gazaian civilist dies in this process (as Gaza puts the rocket-launchers in
    civilist areas), Amnesty will immediately condemn and ask Israel to "deescalate", as if Israel was responsible for the escalation in the first place - quite the distortion of events by Amnesty International.


    You call that "civilization" just because Bruegel painted nice looking postcards ?!? I won't waste your time to review French behavior in Indo-China, or British behavior in all its colonies. Have you ever
    been to Hong Kong?

    https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/dr_hermes/14666255/594017/594017_900.jpg

    You call that "civilization" ?!?

    I have been to Hongkong more than one time (Shangri-La Hotel in Kowloon, I can only recommend). A friend of mine worked there; she left after China got crazy and megalomaniac trying to totally annex HK.

    Are you fucking stupid? HK is a beacon of human rights compared to China, and if you had any idea of HK's relationship with China, you would at least sort of understandn why HK-people would feel this way.

    You idolize singapore that only recently legitimised homosexuality, but shit all over hk... You idiot.

    The HK-people were asking the USA to help, because they know that the West respects human rights more than China. They were waving US-flags (https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/09/hong-kong-protesters-1486227 - I didn't read the article, I linked it
    for the flags).

    If you support the Ukrainians against Russia, you idiot should also support HK-people against China.

    How fucking stupid are you DK?

    I lost that confidence after Rabin's assassination. Since then,
    I have been more critical than I was, and in my opinion with
    good reason.
    You didn't lose that "confidence" when Nasser and his goons
    attacked Israel with the openly stated goal to exterminate all
    the Jews? Your headline memory appears to be extremely
    selective. Or were you distracted by watching Ashkenazy
    win the QE piano rodeo?

    You have a really twisted mind. You are basically saying
    (however politely) that the Israeli-Arab conflict is nothing
    but the result of Israeli intransigence. The other side is of
    course pure and innocent of any wrong doings.

    You are a cultural and social anti-semite. Case closed.

    dk

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  • From Andy Evans@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 13 05:58:37 2023
    DON'T FEED THE TROLLS

    If you are in any doubt about how a troll operates, read this.....

    https://theconversation.com/dont-feed-the-trolls-really-is-good-advice-heres-the-evidence-63657

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 13 09:40:27 2023
    On 2/12/2023 7:06 PM, HT wrote:
    Op zondag 12 februari 2023 om 22:51:20 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:

    If you are suggesting the land belongs to the "original population",
    then it clearly belongs to the Jewish people before any other group
    can claim it.

    You really need to revisit your history.

    No need. I was once well-versed in Middle Eastern history. It was more than half a century ago, but I have not forgotten the headlines.

    Of course, we can argue about the "original" population and to whom the land once "belonged". Perhaps an interesting history lesson, and at least a boost for the legal minds among us.

    In my opinion, it would not do justice to the fact that: 1. Zionism was the answer to a problem (autonomy, security) that needed solving more urgently than ever, and 2. the Promised Land was the only place all could call home thanks to a shared
    tradition.
    To deny (to paraphrase Frank) 1. and 2. is, in my view, anti-Zionist. These points cannot be separated - whatever the consequences.
    I think the real discussion is about 3.: how to deal with the consequences.

    Initially, I trusted that the women and men who once formed the backbone of Western (in particular German) civilization would steer the ship of state in the right direction after solving the initial problems. I lost that confidence after Rabin's
    assassination. Since then, I have been more critical than I was, and in my opinion with good reason.

    Henk


    There is a prevalent idea among the Left that somehow Rabin would have made "peace" with the Palestinians. This is a convenient pipe dream. This could theoretically have been true if there was a Palestinian entity in existence that accepted the idea of
    a two-state solution. There wasn't and there isn't. Maybe in a generation or two, but the acceptance will probably come too late.

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Herman on Mon Feb 13 10:06:58 2023
    On 2/13/2023 2:13 AM, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 3:50:16 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 6:41:36 PM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 2:36:12 AM UTC+1, Dan Koren wrote:

    No, we cannot argue. These are
    verifiable, measurable, historical
    facts.

    Says Putin about occupying Ukraine,
    which has never existed, according
    to his facts.



    You have now shown your true
    colors as a rabid,

    No I'm not. You are the rabid racist here, and you've brought a couple of crazy mouth-foaming racists here after you turned RMCR into a racist free for all.
    All I did was point out that these "historical facts" are problematic in a world of constant migration and overpopulation and its concomitant competition for, shall we say, Lebensraum.

    There are two different discussions to be had on the issue of Zionism.

    One is who is right and who is wrong. Who has a claim and who doesn't and so forth. This is what we usually talk about. Probably pointlessly.

    The other is purely practical. Israel the country exists and is simply not going anywhere, at least not voluntarily. They hold possession of (if you like, "occupy") the West Bank (or if you, like Judea and Samaria) for now. Whether they will give any
    of it up for a Palestinian state or a Jordanian/Palestinian confederacy or simply annex it or maintain the status quo is unknown, but it will be Israel's choice, not those who like to cast a cloud on the Jews' historical presence or claim.

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 13 07:11:23 2023
    There is a prevalent idea among the Left that somehow Rabin would have made "peace" with the Palestinians. This is a convenient pipe dream. This could theoretically have been true if there was a Palestinian entity in existence that accepted the idea of
    a two-state solution. There wasn't and there isn't. Maybe in a generation or two, but the acceptance will probably come too late.

    I didn't expect Rabin to come to some kind of understanding with Arafat. Arafat was an unguided projectile. The fact that Rabin was murdered for trying to keep the option open, proved that I had been too naive about Israel's position.

    A deal is farther away than ever before, imho. Let's hope that I'm too cynical this time.

    Henk

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 13 10:45:04 2023
    On 2/13/2023 10:11 AM, HT wrote:

    There is a prevalent idea among the Left that somehow Rabin would have made "peace" with the Palestinians. This is a convenient pipe dream. This could theoretically have been true if there was a Palestinian entity in existence that accepted the idea
    of a two-state solution. There wasn't and there isn't. Maybe in a generation or two, but the acceptance will probably come too late.

    I didn't expect Rabin to come to some kind of understanding with Arafat. Arafat was an unguided projectile. The fact that Rabin was murdered for trying to keep the option open, proved that I had been too naive about Israel's position.

    A deal is farther away than ever before, imho. Let's hope that I'm too cynical this time.

    Henk

    As in all political assassinations, Rabin was murdered by an individual, not a movement. There are always nuts with the potential to do harm.

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 13 08:25:55 2023
    Op maandag 13 februari 2023 om 16:45:12 UTC+1 schreef Frank Berger:

    As in all political assassinations, Rabin was murdered by an individual, not a movement. There are always nuts with the potential to do harm.

    Correct - and in my opinion, he did a lot more harm than he expected to do. But that's what it is. The next generations have to do better, on both sides.

    Henk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Feb 13 08:45:14 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Montag, 13. Februar 2023 um 14:14:00 UTC+1:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 13. Februar 2023 um 02:36:12 UTC+1:
    You call that "civilization" just because Bruegel painted nice looking postcards ?!? I won't waste your time to review French behavior in Indo-China, or British behavior in all its colonies. Have you ever
    been to Hong Kong?

    https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/dr_hermes/14666255/594017/594017_900.jpg

    You call that "civilization" ?!?
    I have been to Hongkong more than one time (Shangri-La Hotel in Kowloon, I can only recommend). A friend of mine worked there; she left after China got crazy and megalomaniac trying to totally annex HK.

    Are you fucking stupid? HK is a beacon of human rights compared to China, and if you had any idea of HK's relationship with China, you would at least sort of understandn why HK-people would feel this way.

    You idolize singapore that only recently legitimised homosexuality, but shit all over hk... You idiot.

    The HK-people were asking the USA to help, because they know that the West respects human rights more than China. They were waving US-flags (https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/09/hong-kong-protesters-1486227 - I didn't read the article, I linked it
    for the flags).

    If you support the Ukrainians against Russia, you idiot should also support HK-people against China.

    How fucking stupid are you DK?

    Okay, I just realized actually... I was the stupid one here... The picture of yours with the sign "No Chinese Allowed" is actually from a brit; I thought it was from a HK-citizen as a sign of protest against the chinese.

    Anyway, the rest of my point still stands.

    Without the west, there wouln't even be human rights as we understand them today. Jews were emancipated in the west (yes, we know, it also led to the shoah; but you can't reduce it on this, as the west also fought Germany), the West abolished slavery,
    not the east; the east had as many slaves as the west, no difference - well there is one: the west actually treats these subjects critically in school, the east doesn't.

    The Enlightenment was a western achievement. It was only possible because of greek philosophy, judaism, christianity etc.

    The east hates the west because of its achievements, and the west hates itself because of its apparent abuses of human rights in the past (which should be condemed ofc, but elsewhere as well).

    One only ever talks about the colonies of western states, not about the colonies of arab states or the abuses of human rights of other states. Why did Deacon not create a single topic about Iran, but 3 about Israel? Why does GGGG always post negative
    stuff about the USA, under titles such "This only happens in the USA". How about a "This only happens in Palestine", or "This only happens in the south of lebanon" or "This only happens in Iran" etc.

    And if a guy like Trump - who is a proud american - gets voted in, all the hate gets unloaded onto him. All the self-hatred. One jokes about his hair, but on music forums one says one should not judge the physique of a pianist etc. Biden ofc does not get
    ridiculed by the press, even though he is the way bigger clown than Trump. It's all so obvious, and you don't see it. You just continue hating on the west, and guys like Netanyahu, Trump etc.

    dk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Feb 13 09:13:50 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Montag, 13. Februar 2023 um 02:36:12 UTC+1:
    You call that "civilization" just because Bruegel painted nice looking postcards ?!? I won't waste your time to review French behavior in Indo-China, or British behavior in all its colonies. Have you ever
    been to Hong Kong?

    https://ic.pics.livejournal.com/dr_hermes/14666255/594017/594017_900.jpg


    You also have to look at this the other way around: The only reason why Hongkong is where it is today, and why it is better than China is because of the colonisation... wrt to human rights, the living standards etc.

    So, the West wasn't completely bad for HK, sure, they could have done things better, but as you can see the citizens of HK still rely on the west (despite of past and current racist attitudes; there are also racist HK-citizens)

    Yes there were racist brits, just as non-racist brits. And there were also Chinese racists... just look at what China is doing wrt to Uyghurs...

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Andy Evans on Mon Feb 13 15:11:06 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 5:58:40 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:

    DON'T FEED THE TROLLS

    On the contrary, feed them ... to the sharks! ;-)

    dk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Feb 13 23:17:27 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Dienstag, 14. Februar 2023 um 00:11:10 UTC+1:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 5:58:40 AM UTC-8, Andy Evans wrote:

    DON'T FEED THE TROLLS
    On the contrary, feed them ... to the sharks! ;-)

    dk

    Now since you were honest with Henk, how about you try being honest with Andy? You know... he is an antisemite as well.

    You have no principles, you are a hypocrite.

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