• One of my favorite LvB PC#4

    From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to All on Thu Feb 9 18:31:16 2023
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmhhzAxVHg

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Marc S on Thu Feb 9 22:46:49 2023
    On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 10:43:32 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Freitag, 10. Februar 2023 um 03:31:18 UTC+1:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmhhzAxVHg

    Horrible. Beethoven is not Chopin...

    It doesn't matter who or what is Beethoven.
    Performing arts are not historical reconstruction,
    no matter what you and your Adorno think.

    My favorites:

    Schnabel + Solomon:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omJtVvjgoPU

    Rubinstein + Krips:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAT0k0LCDj4

    Your favorites are old hat. You really
    need to cleanse your ears with bleach.

    dk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Thu Feb 9 22:43:29 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Freitag, 10. Februar 2023 um 03:31:18 UTC+1:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmhhzAxVHg

    dk

    Horrible. Beethoven is not Chopin...

    My favorites:

    Schnabel + Solomon:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omJtVvjgoPU

    Rubinstein + Krips:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAT0k0LCDj4

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Thu Feb 9 23:06:39 2023
    Dan Koren schrieb am Freitag, 10. Februar 2023 um 07:46:51 UTC+1:
    On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 10:43:32 PM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Freitag, 10. Februar 2023 um 03:31:18 UTC+1:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmhhzAxVHg

    Horrible. Beethoven is not Chopin...
    It doesn't matter who or what is Beethoven.

    You are right ofc, but you - as usual - neglect the context. You really use every chance you get to demonstrate your imbecility.

    Neither Moravec nor Pletnev have a tone for Beethoven. It's easy to see why you like their playing style; because it's all softened out (similar to Celibidache), Beethoven without tension, Beethoven for eldery people to be lulled into sleep.

    Performing arts are not historical reconstruction,
    no matter what you and your Adorno think.

    What are you imagining again? I was not even talking about Adorno. Nor was I talking about historical reconstruction.

    As cautious ears can tell, neither Schnabel's nor Rubinstein's is about historical reconstruction, and their interpretations are completely different from each other.

    My favorites:

    Schnabel + Solomon:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omJtVvjgoPU

    Rubinstein + Krips:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAT0k0LCDj4
    Your favorites are old hat. You really

    Oh, and Moravec isn't an old hat? His performance is from 1967, Rubinstein's is from 1958...

    Furthermore, you are not insulting me, but Schnabel and Rubinstein... you are such an idiot.

    They are not "old hat", they played with beautiful style.

    need to cleanse your ears with bleach.

    dk

    Well, you need a lobotomy.

    Thanks for providing further proof that you have no taste and are full of shit.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Al Eisner on Fri Feb 10 22:10:38 2023
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-8, Al Eisner wrote:
    On Thu, 9 Feb 2023, Dan Koren wrote:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmhhzAxVHg

    Also a favorite of mine.

    Good to hear.

    And, by the way, of Dave Hurwitz.

    "Official" opinions don'r count ;-)

    dk

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  • From Al Eisner@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Fri Feb 10 21:50:01 2023
    On Thu, 9 Feb 2023, Dan Koren wrote:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmhhzAxVHg

    dk

    Also a favorite of mine. And, by the way, of Dave Hurwitz.
    --
    Al Eisner

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Al Eisner on Fri Feb 10 22:45:43 2023
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-8, Al Eisner wrote:
    On Thu, 9 Feb 2023, Dan Koren wrote:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmhhzAxVHg

    Also a favorite of mine. And, by the way, of Dave Hurwitz.


    How about this one?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHxXVfrtBPQ

    dk

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  • From Al Eisner@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Sun Feb 12 19:22:39 2023
    On Fri, 10 Feb 2023, Dan Koren wrote:

    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-8, Al Eisner wrote:
    On Thu, 9 Feb 2023, Dan Koren wrote:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmhhzAxVHg

    Also a favorite of mine. And, by the way, of Dave Hurwitz.


    How about this one?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHxXVfrtBPQ

    dk

    I'll check it out when I have a chance. Pletnev is generally at
    least interesting.
    --
    Al Eisner

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Al Eisner on Sun Feb 12 22:17:04 2023
    On Sunday, February 12, 2023 at 7:22:50 PM UTC-8, Al Eisner wrote:
    On Fri, 10 Feb 2023, Dan Koren wrote:

    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-8, Al Eisner wrote:
    On Thu, 9 Feb 2023, Dan Koren wrote:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmhhzAxVHg

    Also a favorite of mine. And, by the way, of Dave Hurwitz.

    How about this one?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHxXVfrtBPQ

    I'll check it out when I have a chance.
    Pletnev is generally at least interesting.

    Certainly. His complete set with Gansch is
    not to be missed -- on of my references. It
    may not be someone else's cup of tea. The
    live performances with Gansch/RNO are
    even livelier -- or wayward, as some might
    put it. I also think Mustonen is interesting.

    dk

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  • From AB@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Feb 13 11:23:44 2023
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:10:41 AM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-8, Al Eisner wrote:
    On Thu, 9 Feb 2023, Dan Koren wrote:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmhhzAxVHg

    Also a favorite of mine.
    Good to hear.
    And, by the way, of Dave Hurwitz.
    "Official" opinions don'r count ;-)

    dk

    yes, at times very beautiful, top treble a bit thin, whose 1st movement cadenza is it?
    AB

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 13 15:09:11 2023
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 11:23:46 AM UTC-8, AB wrote:
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:10:41 AM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-8, Al Eisner wrote:
    On Thu, 9 Feb 2023, Dan Koren wrote:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmhhzAxVHg

    Also a favorite of mine.
    Good to hear.
    And, by the way, of Dave Hurwitz.
    "Official" opinions don'r count ;-)

    yes, at times very beautiful, top treble a bit
    thin, whose 1st movement cadenza is it?

    Moravec's own?

    dk

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Mon Feb 13 18:24:45 2023
    On 2/13/2023 6:09 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 11:23:46 AM UTC-8, AB wrote:
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:10:41 AM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-8, Al Eisner wrote:
    On Thu, 9 Feb 2023, Dan Koren wrote:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmhhzAxVHg

    Also a favorite of mine.
    Good to hear.
    And, by the way, of Dave Hurwitz.
    "Official" opinions don'r count ;-)

    yes, at times very beautiful, top treble a bit
    thin, whose 1st movement cadenza is it?

    Moravec's own?

    dk

    Nope. Beethoven's.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 13 15:27:30 2023
    AB schrieb am Montag, 13. Februar 2023 um 20:23:46 UTC+1:
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:10:41 AM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-8, Al Eisner wrote:
    On Thu, 9 Feb 2023, Dan Koren wrote:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmhhzAxVHg

    Also a favorite of mine.
    Good to hear.
    And, by the way, of Dave Hurwitz.
    "Official" opinions don'r count ;-)

    dk
    yes, at times very beautiful, top treble a bit thin, whose 1st movement cadenza is it?
    AB

    BTW I was recently again looking for Bach recordings I haven't listened to, and stumbled upon your post mentioning Gould wrt English Suites, and I have been really enjoying No 2 the past few days. I have to say, Gould is now one of my favourite pianists
    among Schnabel, Rubinstein and Michelangeli (Not sure if I would rank Argerich, Horowitz, Sofronitsky, Gieseking, Feinberg, Volodos, Sokolov as high yet - Pletnev is pretty much out of question for me; and I am also not so sure about Richter and Gilels
    anymore, actually I think I like the others more). It was always a back and forth with me wrt Gould, I ofc acknowledged his genius, but I don't know... I guess I thought it sounded mechanical, while it actually sounds natural (not always ofc, depending
    on the piece). His Brahms intermezzi were actually one of the first recordings I really enjoyed, should probably listen to them again.

    So the sense of this post was: I wanted to redeem myself from old Gould bashings, and also thank you for unwittingly helping me in getting clear about Gould -- and I also ranked my pianists... Can you think of other pianists I might like? Or Dan could
    you? No mediocrities please.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Mon Feb 13 15:54:09 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 14. Februar 2023 um 00:27:32 UTC+1:
    AB schrieb am Montag, 13. Februar 2023 um 20:23:46 UTC+1:
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:10:41 AM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-8, Al Eisner wrote:
    On Thu, 9 Feb 2023, Dan Koren wrote:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmhhzAxVHg

    Also a favorite of mine.
    Good to hear.
    And, by the way, of Dave Hurwitz.
    "Official" opinions don'r count ;-)

    dk
    yes, at times very beautiful, top treble a bit thin, whose 1st movement cadenza is it?
    AB
    BTW I was recently again looking for Bach recordings I haven't listened to, and stumbled upon your post mentioning Gould wrt English Suites, and I have been really enjoying No 2 the past few days. I have to say, Gould is now one of my favourite
    pianists among Schnabel, Rubinstein and Michelangeli (Not sure if I would rank Argerich, Horowitz, Sofronitsky, Gieseking, Feinberg, Volodos, Sokolov as high yet - Pletnev is pretty much out of question for me; and I am also not so sure about Richter and
    Gilels anymore, actually I think I like the others more). It was always a back and forth with me wrt Gould, I ofc acknowledged his genius, but I don't know... I guess I thought it sounded mechanical, while it actually sounds natural (not always ofc,
    depending on the piece). His Brahms intermezzi were actually one of the first recordings I really enjoyed, should probably listen to them again.

    So the sense of this post was: I wanted to redeem myself from old Gould bashings, and also thank you for unwittingly helping me in getting clear about Gould -- and I also ranked my pianists... Can you think of other pianists I might like? Or Dan could
    you? No mediocrities please.

    Hmmm... thinking about it, Michelangeli and Rubinstein belong in the brackets, I guess - to Argerich etc; Schnabel and Gould I am very sure about being my favourite pianists.

    I can't really think of any other pianists that would come close to the ones I named... can anyone else? No Kempff in the case of Arri, No Afanassiev in the case of DK please.

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Tue Feb 14 00:00:55 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 14. Februar 2023 um 00:54:12 UTC+1:
    Marc S schrieb am Dienstag, 14. Februar 2023 um 00:27:32 UTC+1:
    AB schrieb am Montag, 13. Februar 2023 um 20:23:46 UTC+1:
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:10:41 AM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-8, Al Eisner wrote:
    On Thu, 9 Feb 2023, Dan Koren wrote:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmhhzAxVHg

    Also a favorite of mine.
    Good to hear.
    And, by the way, of Dave Hurwitz.
    "Official" opinions don'r count ;-)

    dk
    yes, at times very beautiful, top treble a bit thin, whose 1st movement cadenza is it?
    AB
    BTW I was recently again looking for Bach recordings I haven't listened to, and stumbled upon your post mentioning Gould wrt English Suites, and I have been really enjoying No 2 the past few days. I have to say, Gould is now one of my favourite
    pianists among Schnabel, Rubinstein and Michelangeli (Not sure if I would rank Argerich, Horowitz, Sofronitsky, Gieseking, Feinberg, Volodos, Sokolov as high yet - Pletnev is pretty much out of question for me; and I am also not so sure about Richter and
    Gilels anymore, actually I think I like the others more). It was always a back and forth with me wrt Gould, I ofc acknowledged his genius, but I don't know... I guess I thought it sounded mechanical, while it actually sounds natural (not always ofc,
    depending on the piece). His Brahms intermezzi were actually one of the first recordings I really enjoyed, should probably listen to them again.

    So the sense of this post was: I wanted to redeem myself from old Gould bashings, and also thank you for unwittingly helping me in getting clear about Gould -- and I also ranked my pianists... Can you think of other pianists I might like? Or Dan
    could you? No mediocrities please.
    Hmmm... thinking about it, Michelangeli and Rubinstein belong in the brackets, I guess - to Argerich etc; Schnabel and Gould I am very sure about being my favourite pianists.

    I can't really think of any other pianists that would come close to the ones I named... can anyone else? No Kempff in the case of Arri, No Afanassiev in the case of DK please.

    Thinking about it more:
    Maybe Cziffra... Lupu doesn't make it for me as of yet, maybe one day... He is fun in the mozart KV 365 with Perahia I guess; maybe the best in this piece actually... will have to revisit this. Schnabel is great, but not his son; and the orchestra is
    also not so good (I have similar feelings about the orchestras in Gieseking's Mozart PCs).

    My favorite pianists are also repertoire related (Austro-German; they must have at least made one reference recording for me in that repertoire). Hmmm... Virsaladze no. Cliburn and Toradze don't excel my prefered repertoire... I have trouble thinking of
    more...

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  • From Al Eisner@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Tue Feb 14 15:54:05 2023
    On Mon, 13 Feb 2023, Frank Berger wrote:

    On 2/13/2023 6:09 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Monday, February 13, 2023 at 11:23:46 AM UTC-8, AB wrote:
    On Saturday, February 11, 2023 at 1:10:41 AM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Friday, February 10, 2023 at 9:50:09 PM UTC-8, Al Eisner wrote:
    On Thu, 9 Feb 2023, Dan Koren wrote:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmhhzAxVHg

    Also a favorite of mine.
    Good to hear.
    And, by the way, of Dave Hurwitz.
    "Official" opinions don'r count ;-)

    yes, at times very beautiful, top treble a bit
    thin, whose 1st movement cadenza is it?

    Moravec's own?

    dk

    Nope. Beethoven's.

    Beethoven wrote two cadenza for the first movenent. I recall seeing
    somewhere that Moravec used the less-frequentky played of the two, but
    I've been unable to refind the source for that information.
    --
    Al Eisner

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Al Eisner on Tue Feb 14 16:13:43 2023
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 3:54:13 PM UTC-8, Al Eisner wrote:

    Beethoven wrote two cadenza for the first movenent. I
    recall seeing somewhere that Moravec used the less-
    frequentky played of the two, but I've been unable to
    refind the source for that information.

    Has any other pianist played and/or recorded it?

    dk

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Tue Feb 14 19:25:42 2023
    On 2/14/2023 7:13 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 3:54:13 PM UTC-8, Al Eisner wrote:

    Beethoven wrote two cadenza for the first movenent. I
    recall seeing somewhere that Moravec used the less-
    frequentky played of the two, but I've been unable to
    refind the source for that information.

    Has any other pianist played and/or recorded it?

    dk

    According to this, Brendel, Giesking and Gilels, but it doesn't say which recordings.

    http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/v/vai01021a.php

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Tue Feb 14 16:42:45 2023
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 4:25:51 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 2/14/2023 7:13 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 3:54:13 PM UTC-8, Al Eisner wrote:

    Beethoven wrote two cadenza for the first movenent. I
    recall seeing somewhere that Moravec used the less-
    frequentky played of the two, but I've been unable to
    refind the source for that information.

    Has any other pianist played and/or recorded it?

    According to this, Brendel, Giesking and Gilels, but it doesn't say which recordings.

    http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/v/vai01021a.php

    Gieseking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EgpAV2yJa4Q

    None of Brendel's or Gilels' recordings of the 4th I can remember
    featured this cadenza. However they have both recorded the 4th
    so many times it is possible some the versions I have not heard
    might feature it.

    dk

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  • From Al Eisner@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Wed Feb 15 14:00:41 2023
    On Tue, 14 Feb 2023, Frank Berger wrote:

    On 2/14/2023 7:13 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 3:54:13 PM UTC-8, Al Eisner wrote:

    Beethoven wrote two cadenza for the first movenent. I
    recall seeing somewhere that Moravec used the less-
    frequentky played of the two, but I've been unable to
    refind the source for that information.

    Has any other pianist played and/or recorded it?

    dk

    According to this, Brendel, Giesking and Gilels, but it doesn't say which recordings.

    http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/v/vai01021a.php

    There is a recording by Jerome Lowenthal which includes 21 diffeent
    cadenzas for the first or third movement, but only one of LvB's own
    for the first movement. All by well-known composers: https://www.allmusic.com/album/beethoven-piano-concerto-no-4-cadenzas-mw0002627987
    --
    Al Eisner

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  • From Al Eisner@21:1/5 to Al Eisner on Wed Feb 15 14:15:24 2023
    On Wed, 15 Feb 2023, Al Eisner wrote:

    On Tue, 14 Feb 2023, Frank Berger wrote:

    On 2/14/2023 7:13 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 14, 2023 at 3:54:13 PM UTC-8, Al Eisner wrote:

    Beethoven wrote two cadenza for the first movenent. I
    recall seeing somewhere that Moravec used the less-
    frequentky played of the two, but I've been unable to
    refind the source for that information.

    Has any other pianist played and/or recorded it?

    dk

    According to this, Brendel, Giesking and Gilels, but it doesn't say which
    recordings.

    http://www.classical.net/music/recs/reviews/v/vai01021a.php

    There is a recording by Jerome Lowenthal which includes 21 diffeent
    cadenzas for the first or third movement, but only one of LvB's own
    for the first movement. All by well-known composers: https://www.allmusic.com/album/beethoven-piano-concerto-no-4-cadenzas-mw0002627987

    A musicweb review of that Lowenthal set: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2015/Mar/Beethoven_PC4_LP1008.htm
    --
    Al Eisner

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Thu Feb 16 01:18:43 2023
    On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmhhzAxVHg

    40 years later:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dwg-ze1jbkQ

    dk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Thu Feb 16 02:11:58 2023
    On Thursday, February 16, 2023 at 1:18:46 AM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Thursday, February 9, 2023 at 6:31:18 PM UTC-8, Dan Koren wrote:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmhhzAxVHg
    40 years later:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dwg-ze1jbkQ


    And Chopin Preludes from 2000:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trGiMP8OM1Q

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  • From KimDenmark@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 17 14:54:50 2023
    Pure joy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHjF3dzMJhU

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to KimDenmark on Fri Feb 17 15:00:49 2023
    On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 2:54:53 PM UTC-8, KimDenmark wrote:

    Pure joy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHjF3dzMJhU

    You call Backhaus "joy" ?!? Why don't you call him Fuckhaus?

    He butchered every note he played.

    dk

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 17 15:11:34 2023
    Op vrijdag 17 februari 2023 om 23:54:53 UTC+1 schreef KimDenmark:
    Pure joy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHjF3dzMJhU

    I agree. The Beethoven #4 is great. The opening bars of the first movement and slow movement are great. "Göttlich" is a bit much but exceptional - also to see him play.

    Henk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 17 15:18:20 2023
    On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 3:11:37 PM UTC-8, HT wrote:
    Op vrijdag 17 februari 2023 om 23:54:53 UTC+1 schreef KimDenmark:
    Pure joy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHjF3dzMJhU

    I agree. The Beethoven #4 is great. The opening bars of the
    first movement and slow movement are great. "Göttlich" is
    a bit much but exceptional - also to see him play.

    One of the ugliest piano sounds ever produced, second only
    to Serkin in steeliness and lack of color, texture or volume.
    Mechanical and metronome driven strict score literalist.
    Not to mention he was Nazi who performed in uniform
    on stage and asked the Jews to leave the concert hall.

    Isn't it bizarre that people find fault with Lilsitsa, Gergiev
    or Matsuev supporting Putin's regime, while dyed in the
    wool Nazis like Bohm, Backhaus, Elly Ney or Kabasta
    get free passes? I ask the question .....

    dk

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  • From MELMOTH@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 18 01:58:08 2023
    Dan Koren a exprim avec prcision :
    I ask the question .....

    When you write "I ask the question", please specify "MELMOTH", right?

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to MELMOTH on Fri Feb 17 17:09:52 2023
    On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 4:58:15 PM UTC-8, MELMOTH wrote:
    Dan Koren a exprimé avec précision :
    I ask the question .....

    When you write "I ask the question",
    please specify "©MELMOTH", right?

    First register the trademark, then
    we can discuss franchise terms.

    dk

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 17 16:43:14 2023
    Op zaterdag 18 februari 2023 om 00:18:24 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:
    On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 3:11:37 PM UTC-8, HT wrote:
    Op vrijdag 17 februari 2023 om 23:54:53 UTC+1 schreef KimDenmark:
    Pure joy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHjF3dzMJhU

    I agree. The Beethoven #4 is great. The opening bars of the
    first movement and slow movement are great. "Göttlich" is
    a bit much but exceptional - also to see him play.

    One of the ugliest piano sounds ever produced, second only
    to Serkin in steeliness and lack of color, texture or volume.
    Mechanical and metronome driven strict score literalist.

    Somehow, I rather like his sound. The mechanical and metronome part fits Beethoven and Brahms very well, at least in his approach.

    Not to mention he was Nazi who performed in uniform
    on stage and asked the Jews to leave the concert hall.

    True. So what? Should I only take notice of performances, books, paintings etc. of those whose personal views I share?

    Isn't it bizarre that people find fault with Lilsitsa, Gergiev
    or Matsuev supporting Putin's regime, while dyed in the
    wool Nazis like Bohm, Backhaus, Elly Ney or Kabasta
    get free passes? I ask the question .....

    After the war, most of us were trying to get our lives back in order. We had no time to be too sensitive.

    That said, I remember clearly that Elly Ney wasn't welcome in Belgium and the Netherlands. One of my piano teachers was a great admirer of her, and regretted it deeply.

    Russian artists, on the contrary, were more than welcome, even in the days of Stalin. Stalin 'punished' Belgium in the late fifties for helping Russians asylum seekers by boycotting the Queen Elisabeth competition. Thanks to Gilels and Oistrakh that didn'
    t last very long.

    Henk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to All on Fri Feb 17 17:14:39 2023
    On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 4:43:16 PM UTC-8, HT wrote:
    Op zaterdag 18 februari 2023 om 00:18:24 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:
    On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 3:11:37 PM UTC-8, HT wrote:
    Op vrijdag 17 februari 2023 om 23:54:53 UTC+1 schreef KimDenmark:
    Pure joy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHjF3dzMJhU

    I agree. The Beethoven #4 is great. The opening bars of the
    first movement and slow movement are great. "Göttlich" is
    a bit much but exceptional - also to see him play.

    One of the ugliest piano sounds ever produced, second only
    to Serkin in steeliness and lack of color, texture or volume.
    Mechanical and metronome driven strict score literalist.

    Somehow, I rather like his sound. The mechanical and
    metronome part fits Beethoven and Brahms very well,
    at least in his approach.

    Mechanical, metronomic and steely may be appropriate
    for the great boring, but definitely not for Brahms.

    Not to mention he was Nazi who performed in uniform
    on stage and asked the Jews to leave the concert hall.

    True. So what? Should I only take notice of performances,
    books, paintings etc. of those whose personal views I share?

    If you share Backhaus' views Marc S. will cut off your head! ;-)

    Isn't it bizarre that people find fault with Lilsitsa, Gergiev
    or Matsuev supporting Putin's regime, while dyed in the
    wool Nazis like Bohm, Backhaus, Elly Ney or Kabasta
    get free passes? I ask the question .....

    After the war, most of us were trying to get our lives back
    in order. We had no time to be too sensitive.

    In other words, back to Nazi anti-semitism as usual.

    That said, I remember clearly that Elly Ney wasn't welcome
    in Belgium and the Netherlands. One of my piano teachers
    was a great admirer of her, and regretted it deeply.

    Check her reecordings on YT -- some of the ugliest
    piano playing one can(not) imagine, even setting
    aside the fact she was a Nazi bitch and officer.

    Russian artists, on the contrary, were more than welcome,
    even in the days of Stalin. Stalin 'punished' Belgium in the
    late fifties for helping Russians asylum seekers by boycotting
    the Queen Elisabeth competition. Thanks to Gilels and Oistrakh
    that didn't last very long.

    Russia needed an export market for its musicians
    to bring in hard curency.

    dk

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 18 01:59:59 2023
    Somehow, I rather like his sound. The mechanical and
    metronome part fits Beethoven and Brahms very well,
    at least in his approach.
    Mechanical, metronomic and steely may be appropriate
    for the great boring, but definitely not for Brahms.

    If you hadn't had personal/political/ideological objections, I would have referred to his recordings of Brahms #2.

    Not to mention he was Nazi who performed in uniform
    on stage and asked the Jews to leave the concert hall.
    True. So what? Should I only take notice of performances,
    books, paintings etc. of those whose personal views I share?
    If you share Backhaus' views Marc S. will cut off your head! ;-)

    He wouldn't. He's one of the good guys - but far too obsessive, panicky and chaotic, and therefore in the end someone to avoid (and that's a pity).

    After the war, most of us were trying to get our lives back
    in order. We had no time to be too sensitive.
    In other words, back to Nazi anti-semitism as usual.

    The Nazi's were defeated. Antisemitism remained, of course, but the traditional kind. That changed with the second generation of immigrants from Islamic countries.

    That said, I remember clearly that Elly Ney wasn't welcome
    in Belgium and the Netherlands. One of my piano teachers
    was a great admirer of her, and regretted it deeply.
    Check her reecordings on YT -- some of the ugliest
    piano playing one can(not) imagine, even setting
    aside the fact she was a Nazi bitch and officer.

    Okay, I get the drift. Although I must admit that the Mondschein played in Nazi uniform makes a very weird picture - a reason not to revisit her.

    Russian artists, on the contrary, were more than welcome,
    even in the days of Stalin. Stalin 'punished' Belgium in the
    late fifties for helping Russians asylum seekers by boycotting
    the Queen Elisabeth competition. Thanks to Gilels and Oistrakh
    that didn't last very long.
    Russia needed an export market for its musicians
    to bring in hard curency.

    Russia still needs money, but these days we uphold our Western 'values' in a different way.
    Henk

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 18 04:08:42 2023
    On Saturday, February 18, 2023 at 2:00:02 AM UTC-8, HT wrote:

    Somehow, I rather like his sound. The mechanical and
    metronome part fits Beethoven and Brahms very well,
    at least in his approach.

    Mechanical, metronomic and steely may be appropriate
    for the great boring, but definitely not for Brahms.

    If you hadn't had personal/political/ideological objections,
    I would have referred to his recordings of Brahms #2.

    No need for referrals, I heard them.

    Not to mention he was Nazi who performed in uniform
    on stage and asked the Jews to leave the concert hall.

    True. So what? Should I only take notice of performances,
    books, paintings etc. of those whose personal views I share?

    If you share Backhaus' views Marc S. will cut off your head! ;-)

    He wouldn't. He's one of the good guys - but far too obsessive,
    panicky and chaotic, and therefore in the end someone to avoid
    (and that's a pity).

    A very bizarre notion of "goodness" indeed.

    After the war, most of us were trying to get our lives
    back in order. We had no time to be too sensitive.

    You are not that old -- one hopes.

    In other words, back to Nazi anti-semitism as usual.

    The Nazi's were defeated. Antisemitism remained, of
    course, but the traditional kind. That changed with the
    second generation of immigrants from Islamic countries.

    I am afraid I don't follow. Care to elaborate?

    That said, I remember clearly that Elly Ney wasn't welcome
    in Belgium and the Netherlands. One of my piano teachers
    was a great admirer of her, and regretted it deeply.

    Check her reecordings on YT -- some of the ugliest
    piano playing one can(not) imagine, even setting
    aside the fact she was a Nazi bitch and officer.

    Okay, I get the drift. Although I must admit that the
    Mondschein played in Nazi uniform makes a very
    weird picture - a reason not to revisit her.

    No drift. It was all quite blatant.

    Russian artists, on the contrary, were more than welcome,
    even in the days of Stalin. Stalin 'punished' Belgium in the
    late fifties for helping Russians asylum seekers by boycotting
    the Queen Elisabeth competition. Thanks to Gilels and Oistrakh
    that didn't last very long.

    Russia needed an export market for
    its musicians to bring in hard curency.

    Russia still needs money, but these days we
    uphold our Western 'values' in a different way.

    "Our" "values" ?!? Wow !!!

    dk

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  • From Marc S@21:1/5 to Marc S on Sat Feb 18 04:07:07 2023
    Marc S schrieb am Freitag, 10. Februar 2023 um 07:43:32 UTC+1:
    Dan Koren schrieb am Freitag, 10. Februar 2023 um 03:31:18 UTC+1:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZmhhzAxVHg

    dk

    Horrible. Beethoven is not Chopin...

    My favorites:

    Schnabel + Solomon:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omJtVvjgoPU

    *Will have to check again which Schnabel I like most. It's been ages since I've listened to him in the Beethoven PCs; been ages since I've listened to the Beethoven PCs actually - maybe I recommended this one too soon, having just listened to the opening
    (which was marvellous); I remember that I used to listen to Schnabel + Dobrowen, but I never digged deeper into Schnabel's different recordings to find out which one I like most - was distracted by Mozart PCs.

    Listened to Schnabel's Rondo in A minor (Mozart) again yesterday evening; just unbelievable... so beautiful


    Rubinstein + Krips:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAT0k0LCDj4

    I would also need to evaluate the different recordings of Rubinstein against each other to be really confident about which Rubinstein version I like most.

    All in all though, these are my two favorite pianists for this concerto. No thanks to cliburn, moravec, weissenberg, kempff, gilels, fleisher and many (all?) others.

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  • From HT@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 18 07:20:31 2023
    Op zaterdag 18 februari 2023 om 13:08:44 UTC+1 schreef Dan Koren:
    On Saturday, February 18, 2023 at 2:00:02 AM UTC-8, HT wrote:

    After the war, most of us were trying to get our lives
    back in order. We had no time to be too sensitive.
    In other words, back to Nazi anti-semitism as usual.
    The Nazi's were defeated. Antisemitism remained, of
    course, but the traditional kind. That changed with the
    second generation of immigrants from Islamic countries.
    I am afraid I don't follow. Care to elaborate?

    No problem. Nazi anti-Semitism ended abruptly as soon as the Germans had to leave Belgium and the Netherlands. That did not mean that anti-Semitism disappeared. Jews were discriminated against again as before the NSDAP made its appearance. This "
    traditional" form of anti-Semitism changed with the arrival of the second generation of immigrants from Islamic countries (immigrants born here or reunited with family). They brought with them their own form of anti-Semitism

    Russia still needs money, but these days we
    uphold our Western 'values' in a different way.
    "Our" "values" ?!? Wow !!!

    Where have you been? If we aren't promoting them, we are defending them! The West is the great bringer of values to the rest of the world.

    Henk

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to Herman on Sat Feb 18 08:12:32 2023
    On Saturday, February 18, 2023 at 4:37:41 PM UTC+1, Herman wrote:

    Yeah, I remember a much older friend, a Jewish writer whose entire oeuvre is about the War, Occupation and disappeared family members, reminiscing about reading from her work in a smallish Dutch town in 1960, to a group of women. And during the Q&A one
    of these women asked her, somewhat desperately, "Why are you so different?" - meaning, Jewish. She didn't even mean this unkindly, she was just puzzled.

    But obviously, it is the way people send people to death camps, is what I wanted to say. Because "they're not like us."

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to All on Sat Feb 18 07:37:39 2023
    On Saturday, February 18, 2023 at 4:20:33 PM UTC+1, HT wrote:

    No problem. Nazi anti-Semitism ended abruptly as soon as the Germans had to leave Belgium and the Netherlands. That did not mean that anti-Semitism disappeared. Jews were discriminated against again as before the NSDAP made its appearance. This "
    traditional" form of anti-Semitism

    Yeah, I remember a much older friend, a Jewish writer whose entire oeuvre is about the War, Occupation and disappeared family members, reminiscing about reading from her work in a smallish Dutch town in 1960, to a group of women. And during the Q&A one
    of these women asked her, somewhat desperately, "Why are you so different?" - meaning, Jewish. She didn't even mean this unkindly, she was just puzzled.

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Herman on Sat Feb 18 21:09:24 2023
    On 2/18/2023 11:12 AM, Herman wrote:
    On Saturday, February 18, 2023 at 4:37:41 PM UTC+1, Herman wrote:

    Yeah, I remember a much older friend, a Jewish writer whose entire oeuvre is about the War, Occupation and disappeared family members, reminiscing about reading from her work in a smallish Dutch town in 1960, to a group of women. And during the Q&A
    one of these women asked her, somewhat desperately, "Why are you so different?" - meaning, Jewish. She didn't even mean this unkindly, she was just puzzled.

    But obviously, it is the way people send people to death camps, is what I wanted to say. Because "they're >not like us."

    I once had a lunchtime conversation with co-worker about Judaism. She asked me all sorts of questions and I answered as best I could. She seemed surprised that the values of Judaism were basically the same as Christianity. After a half hour or so when
    I thought we were done, she asked, "But you DO believe in Jesus, right?" I don't know if this person would go along with genocide against Jews should the opportunity arise.

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  • From KimDenmark@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 20 15:06:59 2023
    lørdag den 18. februar 2023 kl. 00.00.52 UTC+1 skrev Dan Koren:
    On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 2:54:53 PM UTC-8, KimDenmark wrote:

    Pure joy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHjF3dzMJhU

    You call Backhaus "joy" ?!? Why don't you call him Fuckhaus?

    He butchered every note he played.

    dk
    Dan, such an delightful response.. Backhaus´ LvB 4PC is pure love and if you removed the plugs in your ears, even you would be able to hear just that.
    Sy, KimDenmark

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  • From KimDenmark@21:1/5 to All on Mon Feb 20 15:09:58 2023
    Not to mention he was Nazi who performed in uniform
    on stage and asked the Jews to leave the concert hall.

    Dan, that´s a lie and you know that...geez
    Sy, KimDenmark

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to KimDenmark on Mon Feb 20 15:16:53 2023
    On Monday, February 20, 2023 at 3:07:01 PM UTC-8, KimDenmark wrote:
    lørdag den 18. februar 2023 kl. 00.00.52 UTC+1 skrev Dan Koren:
    On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 2:54:53 PM UTC-8, KimDenmark wrote:

    Pure joy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHjF3dzMJhU

    You call Backhaus "joy" ?!? Why don't you call him Fuckhaus?

    He butchered every note he played.

    Dan, such an delightful response.. Backhaus´ LvB
    4PC is pure love and if you removed the plugs in
    your ears, even you would be able to hear just that.

    I don't listen for "love". I listen for music -- phrasing,
    texture, color, expression, articulation, a sense of
    improvisation and emotional involvement.

    Backhaus never went beyond pedantic mechanical
    recitation in anything he played. The plugs are
    entirely in your ears. You hear "love" in his
    playing, I hear boots on the keyboard.

    Here is Chopin's op 27 no. 2 butchered alla marcia:

    https://youtu.be/VHk2m2Hj7Bs?t=20

    This would not even make it into the preliminaries
    at a Chopin competition. No phrasing, no legato,
    no texture, no color, ridiculous beyond ridiculous
    and absurd beyond absurd.

    Please spare us the boilerplate.

    dk

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  • From AB@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Tue Feb 21 10:26:05 2023
    On Monday, February 20, 2023 at 6:16:56 PM UTC-5, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Monday, February 20, 2023 at 3:07:01 PM UTC-8, KimDenmark wrote:
    lørdag den 18. februar 2023 kl. 00.00.52 UTC+1 skrev Dan Koren:
    On Friday, February 17, 2023 at 2:54:53 PM UTC-8, KimDenmark wrote:

    Pure joy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHjF3dzMJhU

    You call Backhaus "joy" ?!? Why don't you call him Fuckhaus?

    He butchered every note he played.

    Dan, such an delightful response.. Backhaus´ LvB
    4PC is pure love and if you removed the plugs in
    your ears, even you would be able to hear just that.
    I don't listen for "love". I listen for music -- phrasing,
    texture, color, expression, articulation, a sense of
    improvisation and emotional involvement.

    Backhaus never went beyond pedantic mechanical
    recitation in anything he played. The plugs are
    entirely in your ears. You hear "love" in his
    playing, I hear boots on the keyboard.

    Here is Chopin's op 27 no. 2 butchered alla marcia:

    https://youtu.be/VHk2m2Hj7Bs?t=20

    This would not even make it into the preliminaries
    at a Chopin competition. No phrasing, no legato,
    no texture, no color, ridiculous beyond ridiculous
    and absurd beyond absurd.

    Please spare us the boilerplate.

    dk

    agree about the above
    AB

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  • From Herman@21:1/5 to All on Tue Feb 21 10:43:44 2023
    Notsure01 <docdu...@aol.com> wrote:
    It's not the criticism that bothers people so much, but the way it is >>phrased.
    Todd M. McComb
    If "the way it is phrased" includes the same comments over & over, then
    yes.

    It's so goddamn tiresome, these furious reiterations of the same old

    Backhaus, Brendel, Arrau, Serkin...

    Just let people listen to whatever they want to listen to.

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Herman on Tue Feb 21 13:40:54 2023
    On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 10:43:47 AM UTC-8, Herman wrote:
    Notsure01 <docdu...@aol.com> wrote:
    It's not the criticism that bothers
    people so much, but the way it is
    phrased.

    Todd M. McComb
    If "the way it is phrased" includes
    the same comments over & over,
    then yes.

    It's so goddamn tiresome, these
    furious reiterations of the same old

    Backhaus, Brendel, Arrau, Serkin...

    Just let people listen to whatever
    they want to listen to.

    I do/did not "prevent" anyone from
    listening to whatever they want(ed).

    One must be seriously deranged to
    read such non-existent intent in my
    posts.

    Anyone can listen to anything they
    like (or not). Anyone can poste their
    opinions about what they or others
    have listened to (or not). Symmetry.

    dk

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Herman on Tue Feb 21 18:38:36 2023
    On 2/21/2023 1:43 PM, Herman wrote:



    Notsure01 <docdu...@aol.com> wrote:
    It's not the criticism that bothers people so much, but the way it is
    phrased.
    Todd M. McComb
    If "the way it is phrased" includes the same comments over & over, then
    yes.

    It's so goddamn tiresome, these furious reiterations of the same old

    Backhaus, Brendel, Arrau, Serkin...

    Just let people listen to whatever they want to listen to.

    Would you prefer it if Dan changed his mind about his preferences randomly so that there would be little repetition?

    You continue to complain that Dan is trying to affect people's listening behavior when everyone (except you) knows that is impossible electronically. So what is going on is that Dan states his opinions (often rudely, agreed) and you tell him to shut up.
    Why are your posts not just as tiresome as his?

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  • From Dan Koren@21:1/5 to Frank Berger on Tue Feb 21 15:44:28 2023
    On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 3:38:45 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 2/21/2023 1:43 PM, Herman wrote:



    Notsure01 <docdu...@aol.com> wrote:
    It's not the criticism that bothers people so much, but the way it is
    phrased.
    Todd M. McComb
    If "the way it is phrased" includes the same comments over & over, then
    yes.

    It's so goddamn tiresome, these furious reiterations of the same old

    Backhaus, Brendel, Arrau, Serkin...

    Just let people listen to whatever they want to listen to.

    Would you prefer it if Dan changed his mind about his
    preferences randomly so that there would be little repetition?

    Boy, that would be great! I'm working on it! ;-)

    You continue to complain that Dan is trying to affect people's
    listening behavior when everyone (except you) knows that is
    impossible electronically. So what is going on is that Dan
    states his opinions (often rudely, agreed) and you tell him
    to shut up. Why are your posts not just as tiresome as his?

    How about "piquantly" rather than "rudely"? ;-)

    Experience shows politeness is never noticed.
    Or credited.

    dk

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  • From Frank Berger@21:1/5 to Dan Koren on Tue Feb 21 19:46:06 2023
    On 2/21/2023 6:44 PM, Dan Koren wrote:
    On Tuesday, February 21, 2023 at 3:38:45 PM UTC-8, Frank Berger wrote:
    On 2/21/2023 1:43 PM, Herman wrote:



    Notsure01 <docdu...@aol.com> wrote:
    It's not the criticism that bothers people so much, but the way it is >>>>> phrased.
    Todd M. McComb
    If "the way it is phrased" includes the same comments over & over, then >>>> yes.

    It's so goddamn tiresome, these furious reiterations of the same old

    Backhaus, Brendel, Arrau, Serkin...

    Just let people listen to whatever they want to listen to.

    Would you prefer it if Dan changed his mind about his
    preferences randomly so that there would be little repetition?

    Boy, that would be great! I'm working on it! ;-)

    You continue to complain that Dan is trying to affect people's
    listening behavior when everyone (except you) knows that is
    impossible electronically. So what is going on is that Dan
    states his opinions (often rudely, agreed) and you tell him
    to shut up. Why are your posts not just as tiresome as his?

    How about "piquantly" rather than "rudely"? ;-)

    Experience shows politeness is never noticed.
    Or credited.

    dk

    Any statement with the word never in it is never right.

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