With the permission of friend and colleague Wieland Hoban, who is in the process of translating Adorno's Theory of Reproduction for publication by Polity Press soon (as well as the Adorno-Berg correspondence), I'm posting a few select passages that should provide plenty of food for thought and discussion!
It should be pointed out that Adorno's comments, obviously extracted from context, form part of his characteristic dialectical procedures of argument, so that many of the more extreme ones (e.g. the first) later enter into a dialectical mediation together with their polar opposite.
Ian
The following arguments are essential to the question of the transformation of musical listening into reading with an exact idea of the text:
A. The necessity of seeing something that is essentially
spiritual mediated through its sensory representatives, rather than
absorbing this representative itself into the spirit, is infantile. Just as today none but retarded peasants read aloud in order to be able to read at all, and just as the mere lip-movements have survived as a rudiment from the reading of prayer-books, this might very well also be the fate of music one day. There is no reason whatsoever to consider the sensual sound of music more fundamental to it than the sensual sound of words to language.
B. Whereas any musical performance is fallible, the truly
precise idea gained from reading can serve as the ideal for performance that cannot be attained as such. The musical work is thus cleansed of the
fortuity of its realisation, so to speak.
C. Performing music has an element of talking people into
something, convincing them, an element of propaganda about itself, and thus shows its affiliation to the dominant culture industry of today. One could exaggerate and say that any performance of a musical work has the air of being an advertisement for it. Compared to this, the realisation of music in the imagination would represent purely the work itself, without making the slightest concession to its context of effect.
D. The works would, for the most part, be beyond the reach of
wear and trivialisation.
E. The obsolete separation of work and reproduction would be
liquidated.
NB The reproduction theory must contain instructions that are far more concrete, far closer to the content.
***
In the waltz from Die Fledermaus, Solti inserts a short (minimal) breathing space before the accented note in the 4th bar (MUSICAL EXAMPLE P. 172),
which tremendously increases the phrase's elasticity. This manner of quasi-rubato effect cannot be repeated, however, without becoming comical. But it must, on the other hand, have consequences in order to be organic. He solves the problem instinctively by dissolving the breathing space, i.e. reducing it in the 1st sequence and then letting it disappear entirely. The Revellers do something very similar in 'In a little Spanish town' - The things one can learn from popular music -
***
In traditional music it is not sufficient simply to play independently of
the barlines; one must rather feel the absolute and the metric emphases at the same time, i.e. face the conflict between the two. Especially in Schumann, where this is sometimes expressly demanded (he felt very rightly that with the dominant 8-bar structure, such means of differentiation are necessary). E.g. in the 2nd subject of the finale of the Piano Concerto, one must not only hear the apparent meter of 3/2, but also at once the ž, thus stressing the rest in the 2nd bar, so to speak. Technically speaking, this means: emphasise the 1st beat of the model somewhat (prolong, rather than accentuating!); the 3rd of the first, the 2nd of the second bar etc. should be dropped, relatively speaking. New music is denied such effects due to the abandonment of all rhythmic schemes, as with the corresponding harmonic schemes. This sheds light upon one genuine function of jazz: the
preservation of those distinctions which normally disappear. As indeed interpretation in general could learn one or two things from jazz.
***
Toscanini's approach to music-making is not so much a neutralisation of subjective wilfulness within the consciousness of the matter itself as the regression to a traditional stage where that matter did not yet appear as
the problem, but supposedly corresponded to the sensual façade and the significative side of notation; yet neither is this tradition still a
present one nor do the works upon which the orchestral technician projects
it either belong to it or allow themselves to be understood from within it. This significative fidelity, dislocated from all structure, is consequently also augmented - as a purely external accidence - by the brio, the momentum, the dynamism of the theatrical performer, and the result is an agglomeration of pedantry and effect that only a consciousness estranged from the living music and in itself regressive could perceive as bindingly authentic.
gggg gggg schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 08:10:17 UTC+1:acknowleding herself that she has read very little of him; Furthermore if one understands anything about Adorno - Negative Dialectics -, there wouldn't a Adorno prize in the first place; there would maybe a Adorno-No-Prize that tells you why you haven't
https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical/c/TvLwbqCgLQw
You referred to the following article in said link: https://www.thecollector.com/pop-music-art-adorno-philosophy/
This is a pathetic attempt to do justice to Adorno - just look at how short this article is. He also gets many things wrong.
Did you ever read Adorno yourself, or did you only read about Adorno? The reception of Adorno in universities today is seriously flawed (think about how Judith Butler received the Adorno prize; yet she does not understand anythign about him, even
Do you truly believe that Jazz challenges listeners the way atonal or serial music does? Don't dupe yourself. Just play some "avantgarde" Jazz pieces and some of Schoenberg to people and ask them what they find more challening.
Another problem with Jazz (that if I remember correctly Adorno hinted at), is that our mind - when listening to Jazz - puts the "wrong notes" in the right place, thereby obfuscating or levelling the "harmonic innovations" that are present in Jazz.
https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical/c/TvLwbqCgLQw
gggg gggg schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 11:11:57 UTC+1:acknowleding herself that she has read very little of him; Furthermore if one understands anything about Adorno - Negative Dialectics -, there wouldn't a Adorno prize in the first place; there would maybe a Adorno-No-Prize that tells you why you haven't
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 1:23:45 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 08:10:17 UTC+1:
https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical/c/TvLwbqCgLQw
You referred to the following article in said link: https://www.thecollector.com/pop-music-art-adorno-philosophy/
This is a pathetic attempt to do justice to Adorno - just look at how short this article is. He also gets many things wrong.
Did you ever read Adorno yourself, or did you only read about Adorno? The reception of Adorno in universities today is seriously flawed (think about how Judith Butler received the Adorno prize; yet she does not understand anythign about him, even
in your eyes then?Do you truly believe that Jazz challenges listeners the way atonal or serial music does? Don't dupe yourself. Just play some "avantgarde" Jazz pieces and some of Schoenberg to people and ask them what they find more challening.
Again no argument, but a stupid quote.Another problem with Jazz (that if I remember correctly Adorno hinted at), is that our mind - when listening to Jazz - puts the "wrong notes" in the right place, thereby obfuscating or levelling the "harmonic innovations" that are present in Jazz.- Music begins to atrophy when it departs too far from the dance... poetry begins to atrophy when it gets too far from music.
So you have expectations of what music is supposed to be; it must not depart too far from the dance? Are you dictating what music is to be like? The first movement of Beethoven's ninth symphony (which isn't really something you can dance to) is rubbish
It's a pity that you don't view music with a "disinterested" and open mind, but with in interest, wanting the music to fit in a specific concept (not departing too far from "the dance")
I think there has been a lot of music in this world that departs from the dance and yet is still considered music, there has also been a lot of music (also from other cultures) that never intended to be something to be danced to (think Buddhist chants).
Ezra Pound
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 1:23:45 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:acknowleding herself that she has read very little of him; Furthermore if one understands anything about Adorno - Negative Dialectics -, there wouldn't a Adorno prize in the first place; there would maybe a Adorno-No-Prize that tells you why you haven't
gggg gggg schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 08:10:17 UTC+1:
https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical/c/TvLwbqCgLQw
You referred to the following article in said link: https://www.thecollector.com/pop-music-art-adorno-philosophy/
This is a pathetic attempt to do justice to Adorno - just look at how short this article is. He also gets many things wrong.
Did you ever read Adorno yourself, or did you only read about Adorno? The reception of Adorno in universities today is seriously flawed (think about how Judith Butler received the Adorno prize; yet she does not understand anythign about him, even
Do you truly believe that Jazz challenges listeners the way atonal or serial music does? Don't dupe yourself. Just play some "avantgarde" Jazz pieces and some of Schoenberg to people and ask them what they find more challening.
Another problem with Jazz (that if I remember correctly Adorno hinted at), is that our mind - when listening to Jazz - puts the "wrong notes" in the right place, thereby obfuscating or levelling the "harmonic innovations" that are present in Jazz.- Music begins to atrophy when it departs too far from the dance... poetry begins to atrophy when it gets too far from music.
Ezra Pound
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 1:23:45 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:acknowleding herself that she has read very little of him; Furthermore if one understands anything about Adorno - Negative Dialectics -, there wouldn't a Adorno prize in the first place; there would maybe a Adorno-No-Prize that tells you why you haven't
gggg gggg schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 08:10:17 UTC+1:
https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical/c/TvLwbqCgLQw
You referred to the following article in said link: https://www.thecollector.com/pop-music-art-adorno-philosophy/
This is a pathetic attempt to do justice to Adorno - just look at how short this article is. He also gets many things wrong.
Did you ever read Adorno yourself, or did you only read about Adorno? The reception of Adorno in universities today is seriously flawed (think about how Judith Butler received the Adorno prize; yet she does not understand anythign about him, even
Do you truly believe that Jazz challenges listeners the way atonal or serial music does? Don't dupe yourself. Just play some "avantgarde" Jazz pieces and some of Schoenberg to people and ask them what they find more challening.
Another problem with Jazz (that if I remember correctly Adorno hinted at), is that our mind - when listening to Jazz - puts the "wrong notes" in the right place, thereby obfuscating or levelling the "harmonic innovations" that are present in Jazz.- Music begins to atrophy when it departs too far from the dance... poetry begins to atrophy when it gets too far from music.
Ezra Pound
Isn't it easier to dance to jazz than to Schoenberg?
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 2:11:57 AM UTC-8, gggg gggg wrote:acknowleding herself that she has read very little of him; Furthermore if one understands anything about Adorno - Negative Dialectics -, there wouldn't a Adorno prize in the first place; there would maybe a Adorno-No-Prize that tells you why you haven't
On Tuesday, January 24, 2023 at 1:23:45 AM UTC-8, Marc S wrote:
gggg gggg schrieb am Dienstag, 24. Januar 2023 um 08:10:17 UTC+1:
https://groups.google.com/u/1/g/rec.music.classical/c/TvLwbqCgLQw
You referred to the following article in said link: https://www.thecollector.com/pop-music-art-adorno-philosophy/
This is a pathetic attempt to do justice to Adorno - just look at how short this article is. He also gets many things wrong.
Did you ever read Adorno yourself, or did you only read about Adorno? The reception of Adorno in universities today is seriously flawed (think about how Judith Butler received the Adorno prize; yet she does not understand anythign about him, even
Do you truly believe that Jazz challenges listeners the way atonal or serial music does? Don't dupe yourself. Just play some "avantgarde" Jazz pieces and some of Schoenberg to people and ask them what they find more challening.
Another problem with Jazz (that if I remember correctly Adorno hinted at), is that our mind - when listening to Jazz - puts the "wrong notes" in the right place, thereby obfuscating or levelling the "harmonic innovations" that are present in Jazz.- Music begins to atrophy when it departs too far from the dance... poetry begins to atrophy when it gets too far from music.
Ezra PoundIsn't it easier to dance to jazz than to Schoenberg?
| Sysop: | Keyop |
|---|---|
| Location: | Huddersfield, West Yorkshire, UK |
| Users: | 365 |
| Nodes: | 16 (3 / 13) |
| Uptime: | 04:59:56 |
| Calls: | 7,785 |
| Calls today: | 7 |
| Files: | 12,914 |
| Messages: | 5,750,431 |